← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 239: I'm With The Brand (unpacking how brands influence our brains), part one
01:42:13
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- [00:00]
Amanda
There are many days, especially this year, when I feel just so hopeless and overwhelmed. I'll find myself asking the closest cat, usually Brenda, sometimes Hutch. I'll ask them, are these the darkest days in human history? And then I'm reminded that, believe it or not, no, these are not the darkest days in human history. And not just because I really paid attention in school. And not just because I've read the people's history of the United States and so Sophie's Choice and seen countless documentaries and just know that humanity, humanity can get pretty dark. It's also because I lived through the 2000s. If you remember the 2000s as a halcyon time of Littlest Pet Shop and Hannah Montana. Well, I'm older than you and I was a young adult in the 2000s, also known as the odds. It was rampant with post 911 Islamophobia and this like quasi patriotism that primarily weaponized as an excuse to be racist. There was another war in the Middle east that was started under extremely false pretenses in Portland. We were protesting that war almost every week, earning the name Little Beirut from either George W. Bush or a member of his staff, depending who you ask. And for the next decade, the city would be dogged by lawsuits from protesters who were victims of police brutality. There was also this period for several years in Portland where police were, in quotes, accidentally killing innocent people with tasers. I mean, there was the Faces of Meth series in the Oregonian as meth was just sweeping the nation and destroying lives. I'll tell you, I look back at the 2000s and I see a lot of parallels to where we are right now. I also was a single parent in Portland, Oregon, pre Portlandia, the show, not the sculpture above the entrance of the Portland building. Decades of false propaganda involving welfare queens meant that not only was it damn near impossible to get any kind of food or financial assistance from the government, everywhere I went, strangers were sure to ask me. I mean boldly, just come right up to me, a stranger, and ask, exactly how old were you when you had your child? And where is her father? Of course, this is when I learned an important life lesson for dealing with trolls. Irl. And please take this advice. Heed it every single time. The results are magnificent. What is that trick for dealing with trolls in real life? Make it awkward. And I always responded. I was 23 and her father died quite suddenly before she was born. Do you ever wish you could just jam something gross into the gaping mouth of a surprise troll? Because I reached a point where I Kind of wished I was carrying, I don't know, some sort of gross food or object with me at all times. Perhaps neatly triple wrapped in a Ziploc bag so that I could jam it in the mouth of rude people every time their jaw dropped open when I made it awkward after. Really, they made it awkward first.
- [03:26]
Brenda
Don't be rude people.
- [03:29]
Amanda
Also, I'm just going to tell you that being anything other than a white cisgender dude with a trust fund in the 2000s, I felt like I was constantly protecting my vagina from unwelcome visitors. Dudes assured me I would be hotter if I could just get a little smaller than my size 27 jeans. And really, white guys could say the most racist, sexist stuff. And somehow it was okay because it was ironic. So, yeah, the 2000s were not some era of good and easy times. It felt pretty dark while we were in it. I mean, I remember George W. Bush being officially declared the winner of the election. And the despair, the weeping amongst my friends and myself when we heard that news. I mean, it was a hard time. We had the huge tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I mean, it was just bad news, scary news, sad news all the time. Hurricane Katrina, which, by the way, the week of Hurricane Katrina, as the Internet and the nightly news and anywhere else you get, your news was just filled with scenes of just incredible suffering kind of what. What really happens when economic inequality hits the fan. That week we had like a party at urban. It was like an all campus for all the urban brands, outdoor party on the campus. And it was somehow like, I don't know, New Orleans themed. And there was a huge sign that said hurricanes. And I still think about how strangely insensitive that whole thing was, even though I know it was planned well in advance. It felt. It felt very strange and no one commented on it. Anyway, like I said, the odds, not some era of good and easy times. And I'll tell you, I am terrified of what's happening in the world right now. But I also remind myself that the 2000s were a nightmare and we came out of it and things seemed better for a while. Not perfect, but better with a feeling that things could get closer to perfect with time. And I believe that we can get there again and make it last longer and make more progress along the way. And that's what gets me through 2025 right now. But that's not what this episode is about. So let's get to that. Okay, here's another thing I was doing in the 2000s. I was working at The Urban Outfitters store on Northwest 23rd in Portland, Oregon. And if you shop there, I probably was working there. I always wore my hair in pigtails.
- [06:12]
Brenda
I don't know.
- [06:12]
Amanda
Does that remind you of anyone? I was frequently wearing a dress over jeans. Just saying. It was a great time. I made a lot of those felt flowers and pinned them all over myself. A few episodes ago in the Content Queen episode, we talked briefly about the Urban Outfitters interview process. You know, group interviews and the weird personality test that all potential hires had to pass in order to get hired. None of that is unusual for retail. I remember my friend Alana took an even weirder, longer version of that personality test for a job at Nordstrom, and she said it was full of strange double negatives and complex language that seemed designed to catch her in a lie. Like, most people would not say that. I'm never not dishonest. Huh? What's what? And for the most part, these tests, by the way, in case you were wondering, they are just looking to see if there's any. Any chance you might steal from the company. That's. That's what they're looking for there. Anyway, all these retail places, the group interviews, the tests, blah, blah, blah. Getting a job should not be as hard as it is. At Urban Outfitters. The entire employment process began with the same paper application that the company used for more than a decade. The front side was the basics. You know, your name, address, previous jobs, education, very standard. About half of the backside was taken up by an agreement where you basically signed away your rights as an employee before you were even hired. And then, of course, there was a space for personal references. And then a few questions like, what do you do for fun? What kind of music do you like? What are your favorite brands? And then just the tiniest amount of space to answer each of these questions legibly and hopefully impactfully, because those questions seemed innocent enough. But they were really kind of the most important part of the application because they determined if you were in quotes here on brand, or as they like to say now, a cultural fit for the job. The translation was that, were you cool and cute enough to work at Urban Outfitters? Now, over the years, I think, okay, maybe I hope that we as a society have recognized that terms like on brand and cultural fit are just dripping with sexism, racism, classism, ageism, fatphobia, all the badisms and phobias. Hopefully we made some progress there. But back then, remember, it was the 2000s, and somehow it was totally fine and chill for companies to be all of those Things. And it was especially acceptable in the hipster culture of that era for all of its quasi progressiveness. It had all the same sexism, racism, all of the stuff baked into it and very loudly expressed. Exhibit A, Go read some old issues of Vice. Exhibit B. If Vice hasn't curled your hair enough, go listen to the series that Kim and I did on the department a few years ago about the 2000s. Because as a person that lived through was so, I don't know, therapeutic to talk about how messed up it all was and how I saw it then, but low key. The people around me were kind of gaslighting me. So, yeah, the 2000s, not very socially progressive, maybe in comparison to the 50s, sure. But like a long way to go, right? And then the hipster culture just as bad, if not worse. And Urban Outfitters was generally portraying itself as the hipster store. Never mind of course that it was part of a large chain, that its CEO and founder was a rich old white guy who loved to donate money to Republicans, and it was essentially selling low quality stuff at high prices, thanks to that image of being the hipster store. We'll come back to that. But these applications, they were always a stack in one of those plastic desk trays in the manager's office. And all of us managers were constantly thumbing through them because the turnover at Urban Outfitters, a mostly miserable place to work, the turnover was very high. And we made a lot of decisions based on the answers to those questions on the backside of the application. Music was obviously very important. We were looking for cool taste in music. If you answered Britney Spears or NSync, your application was cast aside for the what do you do for fun section. We were looking for similarly cool answers like make art, go thrifting, write poetry, go to shows, play in a band. Basically. Anyone who mentioned sports in their answer was also cast aside. By the way, when I say cast aside, what I really mean is there was this filing cabinet that had all the employee files, and in the bottom drawer there was this one folder where we just put applications that we passed on. So really, when someone says, hey, we're going to keep your application on file for a year, or whatever, they really do mean that. But will they ever look at it again? Sometimes we did pull those applications out when we were pretty desperate, but not very often. Okay, and then that favorite brand section. I'm just going to tell you that if you applied to work at Urban Outfitters in the early 2000s and you answered Luxe or BDG to that question, you Were out of the running, your application went into that filing cabinet drawer, perhaps never to be viewed again. Why? Because we assumed if you answered Lux or bdg, we assumed that you were a super uncool kiss ass, too foolish to recognize that neither Luxe nor BDG were real brands. They were just the names on the labels in some of the clothes we sold. Maybe a lot of the clothes we sold. Lux, for example, was often found in the infamous, as we call them in the store, Amazing Butt flattening jeans. Sold so many of those, and they made everybody's butt oddly square. Maybe more like a rhombus. It was bad. No one was having a good time in those, but man, we sold so many of them. Or you might find Lux sewn into a big chunk of the clothing. In the women's department, BDG was the brand of the even more infamous Ass Blowout jeans, Also a name we use behind the scenes jeans so delicate, so finicky, that they were prone to, well, blow out the ass if someone dared to walk up a set of stairs. And by the way, you were also instantly denied a job if you answered von Dutch in that section. Sorry, I don't make the rules. That's just how it is. But we would have accepted Paul Frank or Marc Jacobs as cool answers. Anyway, the irony of Lux and BDG is that while these names were sewn into clothing for years and years, and like so much clothing for years and years, well beyond really low quality jeans, Urban Outfitters actually didn't own the rights to them. They hadn't trademarked the brands ever. So what was happening is that random stuff with luxe labels kept showing up at TJ, Maxx and Ross. In the early 2010s, when I was a buyer for the company, Urban finally gave up on trademarking them because it was just too late. I think. They do have BDG now, but they got rid of Lux and they rolled out a whole new stable of officially trademarked brand names. There was Kimchi bl, which was for our more feminine customer. Lots of florals and lace and soft colors. There was silence and noise. That was our edgy fashion girl brand. Lots of black and cobalt blue and so much ponte. So many Ponte skirts with, like, huge exposed silver zippers. If you know, you know. There was Ecote, which was the Boho brand, and we also used Staring at stars for Boho accessories and intimates. There was Cooperative, which was a sort of like a more preppiest aesthetic. This one kind of changed the most for A while we were like, oh, this is tomboy. It just depended on what the trend was at that point. But lots of navy, white, and red stripes in the cooperative section. Maybe a little bit of shirting. The company fleshed out these brands even though they were just exclusive to Urban Outfitters via color palettes and customer profiles. Logos, signage, inspiration, lookbooks. A lot of time went into creating these brands. Sort of out of nowhere. As I planned out my assortment as a buyer, I would choose which brand and item might be, and then I would solidify that by choosing colors from the palettes assigned for that brand for that season, even for each season. Sort of like print types were assigned to a brand as well. So, like, cooperative would get stripes, and kimchi blue would get florals, and Ecote might get like, e cat. Silence and noise had very little print and was generally very solid except for leopard. I'm sure I'm painting a picture here of these brands. If you don't remember them, they're probably coming back to you now. In the stores, these brands were merchandised separately from one another, conveying entire fashion trends. The women's sales floor of each store was always broken out into three or four zones, and one brand would occupy each one with all of the colors and prints and silhouettes complementing one another. So you might feel as if you were traveling from one different store to another as you moved through, say, the women's department at Urban Outfitters. And the other thing I want to call out here is that these brands, they seem like they were created out of nowhere. I mean, lots of work went into trying to find names. They should. They could copyright, I'm sure. But these different brands and their esthetic were driven by different consumer insights and customer profiling that the company had invested in. So they knew that they had customers who bought into each of these aesthetics. This use of all these different brands went on for years, with similar brands being developed in the men's department as well. Until Sometime in the late 2010s, when I was not with the company anymore, the company made the decision that everything should just have an Urban Outfitters brand label. They bring back kimchi blue sometimes, but in general, they got rid of everything else. The company just felt that if they put an Urban Outfitters label in everything, it would make Urban an internationally recognized brand with the same power and prestige as, say, Chanel or Nike. Not sure how that's going for them at this point, but I. I understand the logic behind it. For all of us working behind the scenes, these brand names were nothing more than a label that we chose. None of us were like, I'm a real Kimchi blue gal or I'm Ecote all the way. But to our customers, they were very real brands with very real lifestyles and very real identities attached to them entirely, which they didn't know, created by a bunch of people in an office in Philadelphia. While these names were just a cell I populated on a spreadsheet, to me, I knew they did something. They created something, they added value to something. They allowed us to charge more for low quality stuff. And so I was shocked at future jobs like Nasty Gal and Modcloth when we would, you know, go down to the San Pedro Apparel Mart, go to the fast fashion showrooms and buy things with brand labels like Hot n Delicious and Cotton Candy, which were names of different showrooms down there. Where were the vibes with these names? What exactly is the customer lifestyle for Hot and Delicious? Does she love stews and soups? Is she the person at coffee shops always asking for an extra hot latte? I have questions about Hot and Delicious. Don't even get me started on that one showroom named Virgins Only Questions as well. So many questions. By the way, if you're like, I don't know what the San Pedro Apparel Mart is, what are you talking about? Hot and Delicious Cotton Candy, Virgins Only. What? I've talked about this multiple times on the podcast in the past. It's kind of fascinating. So I will share an episode in the show Notes that goes into it more because I would love for you to hear about this. Anyway, my thought as a person who came from had kind of like come up, I guess you would say, come of age as a buyer working for a company that had really dialed in branding, minus the part where they forgot to trademark the brands. Having that sort of just in my brain at all times and kind of just being how things are done to be, you know, be done. Well, I knew that if we could have replaced the Hot and Delicious label with something that said Nasty Gal or perhaps a new Nasty Gal brand a la what we did at Urban Outfitters, we could have increased the retail price by $10, $20, maybe even $30. It really broke my brain that we weren't doing that. Even though it would have, of course, slowed down the process of buying, receiving and selling merchandise. Never an option in fast fashion, certainly not an option in the Nasty Owl Modcloth era of my life. You see, I knew and know the power of brands, of good branding, of building a loyal following of customers who would Buy just about anything. You sold them at just about any price just because of the brand name on the label and hang tag. I mean, traveling back in time to reviewing those applications in the back in the manager's office at Urban Outfitters, I wonder. People probably really did think that BDG and Luxe were brands and they really were their favorite brands. And my co workers and I, we were just being jerky hipster snobs, right? People really believe in brands. They really believe in what the label says. Hopefully not for hot and delicious. But if you're a hot and delicious Stan, hit me up. I gotta know more. In the social media era, brands took on an even different and even bigger part of people's lives. Brands encouraged parasocial relationships with their customers, pretending that they were friends with them, right? They sold ideas of a brand voice, a lifestyle, and sometimes some kind of mission that the brand was on. Cult brands were created and eventually cult brands kind of died off, only to be replaced with another cult brand. People described and still describe their personalities via brands. Whether it's anthropology, you can envision that person, right? Or glossier or even, I don't know, Supreme. And guess what? That's all by design. Over the past few years, making clothes horse, I've often wondered, why are anthropology mega fans the meanest people on the Internet? Why would someone call themselves a maxinista? Why do free people customers think that they are shopping from a sustainable brand? Why do so many indie brands have Facebook groups and subreddits just for fans? Why would someone start a fan account on Instagram for Target? Why will people wait in line for hours to go buy something from Supreme? Still, even now I saw a line around the corner to get Into supreme in 2025 in New York City. Why will people buy a glossier T shirt? I mean, glossier is a makeup brand. Why will people go full scorched earth defending Nike or Shein or what have you on the Internet? I mean, I know the answer Brand and the loyalty slash prestige that comes along with a well defined brand image. It's why people will spend more money for the same item with a different label. It's why they'll show up for every drop. It's why they buy logo T shirts and weird glossier hot cocoa cups or collect Starbucks mugs. I've been wanting to do a series for years unpacking brands and the psychology of it all and why really, at the end of the day, we sort of have to break up with the idea that the name on the labels in our clothing means anything about who we are as individuals. So this summer, in honor of five years of Close Horse, we're going to be unpacking brands and how they make us feel. We have a lot to discuss, so let's get started. Welcome to Clothesforce, the podcast that once pitched Versace, AKA extremely fake and tacky knockoff aesthetic to one of my employers and they turned it into an entire collection. I won't say which one, but it sold pretty well. Just saying. I'm your host, Amanda and this is episode 239, part one in an ongoing series about brands and how they influence our identities and drive consumerism. In preparation for this series, I have read so many books about marketing cults brands. I have watched documentaries about iconic brands like American Apparel. I've listened to podcasts about cults. I've got. I have quite miserably read about a thousand marketing think pieces, many of which were written by AI and wow. We are going to go on quite a journey with everything I've learned along the way. In this episode we're going to break down what brand and branding mean. We're going to talk about the history of brands and branding leading up to this century, where it evolves from a little brand on a burlap sack or a jug to full on marketing teams and brand theory. We're going to ask why food brands got obsessed with blind taste tests and the 70s and 80s. I'm going to explain how I teach brand and branding to my small business clients and students and why that matters for them. And I'm going to share some brands that aren't really who you think they are anymore, or maybe they never were. But that's just the beginning of what we're going to cover over the next few episodes. We'll explore how emotional branding and parasocial relationships with brands became the way of marketing and business in this century. We're going to talk about why brands started having mission statements and corporate accountability pages, why humans are so prone to finding identity with the brands they buy and wear, the rise and maybe disappearance of generic brands. We're going to ask and explore are luxury brands really luxurious? We're going to look at examples of brands who got it right until they got it very wrong. We'll also talk about indie brands who are doing a great job of being authentic and real brands and why we should support them. And we'll do a whole episode about glossier as a case study in so called cult brands and how the cult changes over time. My goal in all of this is for all of us to realize that brands are not our friends. Many brands are running off of vibes and that it's low key, kind of stifling and maybe even damaging to build our identities around them. Plus, when you stop caring about brand names, you probably just start dressing for yourself and buying and wearing things you like, which is always great for cutting down your consumerism and just generally having a better life. I want you to be a part of this. So send me your stories about brands that you used to be obsessed with and why you aren't anymore. Or maybe you still are a brand that disappointed you or a brand you love now because of something they did or didn't do. You can record these thoughts and a voice memo on your phone and send them to me or write an email. Please do not DM me on Instagram. Chances are I will miss it because my notifications are always blowing up there. It only takes one extra second to send it to me via email. My email address is always in the show notes and it's amandaosehorse World if you want to write it down right now. Okay, before we jump into all of this because obviously we have a lot to discuss, I would be remiss as a podcast host if I did not remind you that Clothes Horse is coming to the west coast in October and I'm doing two live shows. Thursday, October 23rd I'll be in Seattle, Washington at Hereafter. I'm like this close to having all of my guests solidified for that episode and the theme of that show will be how individuals can create positive impact in their own communities. And Sunday, October 26th I'll be in Portugal, Portland, Oregon at Holocene. The theme there is Rebuilding and Reimagining How Sewing was a Part of the Past and How it Can Be a Part of a Better future. We've got some amazing guests for that one too. I'm so excited about these two episodes. Tickets are on sale right now. There are a limited number available, so go get them. Both venues have told me that tickets are actually selling very fast and will most likely sell out as we get closer to the show, so don't procrastinate. Links are in the show notes and@clotheshorsepodcast.com let's take a moment to thank some.
- [28:39]
Brenda
Of the incredible small businesses who keep clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support.
- [28:44]
Amanda
Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn foundational skills of.
- [28:59]
Brenda
Making, mending and altering their own clothes.
- [29:02]
Amanda
Several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brands Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite plus. I just want to also add here on a personal note that right now Ruby is actually working with me to create a one of a kind unique to me special dress that I will be wearing for all future clothes horse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing Patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's slow fashion.academy Selena Sanders.
- [30:37]
Brenda
A social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover more@shiftwheeler.com late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage, salvaged and thrifted textiles, they hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram. Latetothepartypeople Vino Vintage based just outside of la. We love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Inno Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us out@dylanpage.com and find us on Instagram ylanpage lifeandstyle Salt hats purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram Althats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too.
- [32:57]
Amanda
We have thousands of killer vintage pieces.
- [32:59]
Brenda
Ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern Market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making.
- [33:18]
Amanda
A living wage creating things they love.
- [33:21]
Brenda
Like hand painted candles and ceramics.
- [33:24]
Amanda
We also carry a curated assortment of.
- [33:26]
Brenda
Sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online store@thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on Instagram at Thumbprint Detroit Vagavan Vintage.
- [33:45]
Amanda
DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and.
- [33:48]
Brenda
Decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada.
- [33:52]
Amanda
Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale.
- [33:57]
Brenda
Markets in San Francisco as well as.
- [33:59]
Amanda
At a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana.
- [34:04]
Brenda
Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts District of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtlv and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022.
- [34:34]
Amanda
As you know, I have always loved when someone in school started their book report or presentation with a dictionary definition. So let's do that now. First up, we're going to start with the word brand. According to the American Marketing Association, a brand is a name, term, design, symbol or any other feature that identifies one seller's good or service as distinct from those of other sellers. And that's a pretty straightforward definition, right? We're talking about logos, symbols, like the Nike Swoosh or the Apple, you know, Apple. We're also talking about the brand's image and, well, like the vibes that the company is putting out there. We're going to talk about vibes an awful lot because it turns out brand kind of equals vibes. More about that later. But beyond even these more literal interpretations of brand, brand is also the idea or image people have in mind when they think of a specific company, product or service. And this is the moment when I tell you that we're going to talk a lot about fizzy waters, sparkling waters, as my niece calls them, spicy waters, whatever you call it, for the next few minutes. Why? Because fizzy water is a great way to understand the impact of brand and branding. Because essentially the ingredients of every can are the same, no matter what the logo on the can is. We're looking at water, carbonation and flavoring in every can, no matter the brand. Now, I know that there are some that put it in a hint of juice or some stevia, but come on, let's not get into the weeds here. They're pretty much the same, right? So as I said earlier, brand is the idea or image people have in mind when they think of a specific company, product or service. And this image can function in two different ways, right? It can be practical and concrete. Like La Croix is flavored fizzy water, Right. And it can also be more of like an image, more vibes, right? Like Lacroix is cooler than bubbly because it has better art design and it's the original flavored fizzy water, right? So it's a whole package of feelings, thoughts that we have about that brand that are in our brains. When someone asks us. It's sort of like if you did a free word association with a friend and you just sort throwing brand names of them and ask them to reply, you would hear elements of each of these brands coming back to you, right? And yes, the quality of the product or service a company offers is important, but customers will originally gravitate towards the image. Yes, we humans really do judge a book by its cover. In theory, customers will come back again because of the quality, the quality of that product or that service. That hasn't always been the case, particularly in this century as social media and advances in marketing theory have allowed brands to hold onto customers without backing it up with good quality and service. I mean, My friends, this is the fast fashion era. I even see it with brands that are super. People are so deeply into, like glossier, that aren't even clothing, where people will be like, yeah, the product quality has gone downhill and the caps never stay on the lipstick. And I hate the new reformulations and the prices have gone up and blah, blah, blah. But here's my latest ha order from glossier. Like, there's just something has happened in the century. We'll talk about it more in next week's episode. Where we are so emotionally entangled with brands that we. I know it's kind of like being in a bad relationship. We'll tolerate bad product and bad service a lot for a long time. When I'm teaching the concept of brands to small business students, I always pull up a slide of canned fizzy waters from a variety of brands and I ask them, which brand do you associate with value? Which do you associate with coolness? Which do you think is higher quality? Which has more exciting flavors? Which one do you buy most often and why? And this always turns into a fun and eye opening conversation because all of us fizzy water drinkers, we have brand loyalty, myself included. There are ones that we perceive as fancier and we only buy when they're on sale or we buy as a little special treat or reward for ourselves. There are house brands that we buy because they're super cheap and we can have a lot. There are some that we skip because we know who their parent company is. But no matter what, all of the cans on that slide contain the same ingredients. And what's interesting is the cans that I show can range anywhere from like 10 cents a can to like $5 a can. And yet the ingredients are all kind of the same, right? Here are some examples of how we'll talk about them in these sessions. Right? We'll talk about Lacroix. We'll say it's the original flavored sparkling water. It has vintage branding, it's a mid price point, it's low key. Kind of a heritage brand of sparkling water at this point. We're going to talk about heritage brands later in this episode as well. Bubbly. Although this is an FYI, in this household, we call it Bubly because I don't understand why it's spelled that way. Bubbly has more millennial branding. And that's the name too. That's why it only has one B, because apparently millennials like dropped consonants and vowels. I wish someone would have sent me the memo. Bubbly has fairly basic flavors. It's kind of the mid price point because it's from Coca Cola. People who aren't sparkling water drinkers trust the brand and are willing to give it a try. And people who are like environmentalists like myself, don't trust the brand because we know that Coca Cola is the world's biggest polluter and so we don't buy bubbly. But you can see how for some, being associated with Coca Cola works in its favor. I always include a picture of Soleil which may be unfamiliar to you. That is the house brand for Safeway and Vons, the grocery store chains. It's pretty basic branding that speaks to value. Lowest price point. It's designed to sell in high volume and it comes even in a bigger box with a lot more cans. And this is a moment where I tell you, because I'm going to talk to you about another house brand next, that one piece of advice I give all of my clients and my students is this. You can be the five dollar can sparkling water or you can be the ten cent a can sparkling water. Both of those are strong business models that will surely be profitable and pay your bills and let you hire employees and do all of these things that are good. But you can't let it happen to you. You can't be like, I'm going to be the five dollar fizzy water person and then sell it off for 10 cents. That business model doesn't work. You have to plan it in advance and strategize around it. And that can be a successful business Now. Now, part of making that work, whether it's selling a can for 10 cents or $5. Well, yes, it's making the math, math and your P and L and all that stuff. But it's also adopting the right branding for that sort of like value proposition for your customer. Right? If you're going into the five dollar a can fizzy water business, you're going to get started by investing a lot of time and upfront research and testing into developing sort of more elaborate, more niche flavors. Right? You're not going to just do grapefruit.
- [42:10]
Brenda
You'Re going to do grapefruit, cardamom or something like that.
- [42:14]
Amanda
You're going to be doing research into what the cutting edge trend flavors are of the moment. You're also going to invest money and time into getting the art and all of the like logos, packaging, whether that's the cans or the boxes, you're going to get them really dialed in and looking and feeling premium. Part of that is going to be just the art, design in itself, but maybe also you're going to letter press those boxes or you're going to add gold foil or the boxes are thicker or something that just feels a little extra special. And then when it's time to start selling this product, you're going to start reaching out to boutique groceries, you know, like high end cafes and restaurants, maybe even some influencers who seem to match your brand and its aesthetic. And you're going to place products with them. Your first meeting is not going to be trying to sell this line to Walmart because you want to keep all the vibes around this item as premium and aspirational as possible. These are both terms that we use constantly in the world of retail. But basically like you want to charge $5 for this can of water, you need to make it seem like the fanciest, coolest, most cutting edge and amazing water that has ever existed. And you can do that. That can happen, right? Conversely, if you're like, I want to go into the 20 cent a can water business, okay, well your challenge is one, you're gonna probably wanna sell this in larger boxes so people get more cans of water for their money. So you wanna make sure the math all works there. Right. You're not gonna invest that kind of money into packaging to make it seem expensive or fancy. You want something that is basic, clean, can, hold 12 or 24 cans of spizzy water and not break. Something that stacks well in stores and something that, that in from like a visual branding perspective communicates value, reliability, consistency. Right. You're not going to be getting into super niche flavors. You're going to be like, we're doing what are the best selling flavors in the fizzy water market. We're going to do grapefruit, we're going to do lemon, lime, what have you. You're not going to be bringing in some blueberry, cardamom or something and you're going to sell this to retailers who are also value focused. Right. So you're going to approach Walmart, maybe Target, maybe not dollar stores, you know, local grocery stores that are just regular grocery stores, but are and are not premium. Right. We're not looking for the expensive rich person grocery store, just the regular person grocery store. And once again, this is going to be a volume thing. So you're going to design your company to produce and sell as much fizzy water as possible because you're selling a lot more per unit to your customer. Once again, both of these business models are super viable. You have to pick a lane and move forward with that branding and check all the boxes to make the product you're offering align with the price you want to sell it for. So another house brand is Good and Gather. That's the Target house brand because it's Target and has to appear a little bit more elevated. It has exotic flavors and more designy branding. We're going to talk about Target next week when we talk about emotional branding and how it has really, I mean, Target has benefited from this concept of emotional branding and parasocial relationships well, more than any other large brand. And it's coming back to bite them in the butt right now. Right. But Target has always with its house brands, which by the way are made in the same factories by the same manufacturers as Walmart's house brands. As a lot of house brands, they've been able to elevate them as slightly more premium than Walmart even though the contents of the box might be the same because they have better branding on the packages. And Target as a whole has this brand, this vibe of being more elevated than Walmart. One thing that brings me constant amusement on the Target subreddit is how often employees will post photos of getting sort of mixed cartons from, you know, from the manufacturers. They open it up and half the box is like good and gather and the other half is, I want to say it's great value, which is Walmart's house brand. It's all coming from the same place. Once again, better branding. Look at some Good and Gather packaging next to some great value packaging and you will see a difference. And that massive difference is Vibes. Now to me, one of the most premium fizzy waters is Waterloo. It's a higher price point. It's got this more vintage inspired branding. It's more flavors that seem natural and maybe a little exotic in our household, but also in often when I'm teaching this class, we always identify Waterloo as a splurge or luxury along with other more premium sparkling water brands like Nixie. Right. But the thing is these are just cans filled with sparkling water. But each can looks different, it occupies a different shelf in the store and it conveys a different lifestyle or value to customers. And that's all by design because it's the result of, of branding. So what is branding? Well, Branding Journal, Yes, I read all kinds of things for y'. All. Branding Journal defines it as the process of giving a meaning to a specific organization, company, products or services by creating and shaping a brand and consumers minds. Breaking this into regular person talk, branding is the full package of identity that communicates the brand brings customers on board and develops brand loyalty. To make it even simpler, branding is vibes, okay? Branding creates emotion and a sense of belonging and community. It's no longer just a product. It's a lifestyle and a community. It's what motivates you to pay $6 for a 12 pack of sparkling water instead of getting 24 cans for $2. It's what gets you to wear that brand's logo on your body. I mean, speaking of sparkling water, people have gotten liquid death tattoos. Once again, Liquid death is just another can of fizzy water, right? It's owned by a big company. They've certainly taken a lot of VC investment. And here you are getting a liquid death tattoo. If you. Just a question for conversation here. If you were going to get a big brand, it doesn't have to be clothing. It could be food, anything tattooed on your body. What would it be? I mean, I'm here to tell you I have a hello Kitty tattoo. So I already did it, because hello Kitty is, you know, a marketing concept. It is. She's trademarked. Right. But it also, for me is vibes and memories. And I've talked about this years ago on a Patreon exclusive episode I did about hello Kitty, where I got a hello Kitty tattoo. Because for me, hello Kitty represented the hope and optimism that I needed to have as a kid with cancer. And that's because at the time, I was at my sickest and basically lived in the hospital. The gift shop in the hospital where I was had a little section of hello Kitty gifts, and people would always bring them to me, and they brought me joy in an otherwise, like, really miserable time. And I wanted to get a hello Kitty tattoo to remind me, Juan, to find the little joys in life, even in dark times, but also to remind myself of how strong I am and how much I have survived and can survive. And once again, hello Kitty is a registered, trademarked property. Right. She gets licensed out for sheets at TJ Maxx. So I don't know why I just made fun of someone for getting a liquid death tattoo. That was really mean of me, and I. I'm. I hope you don't hate me for saying that. Anyway, another great example of two brands that essentially make the same category of product with very different branding. This is not water at all. I want to talk about Skechers and Adidas just for a second. Right? Adidas, no matter what, has always had this, like, cache of coolness. I mean, this is going way back to the 80s and 90s. People definitely if you ask them, is Adidas cooler than skechers? They would 100% say that. Right? Adidas has just really been playing around with the celebrities it works with and who it does collabs with and who designs their stuff and how it's marketed and shot and where it sells. And Adidas feels really premium. Whereas Skechers. Skechers is like something you get in an outlet mall or maybe like at a Kohl's. A lot of the like, sort of like Amish department stores out here sell Skechers because they make a few all black versions that are very popular with the plain folk community. I see a lot of Amish and Mennonite people wearing Skechers. Or there's a Sketchers outlet here in Lancaster. And sometimes I'll see some Mennonite ladies roll by with boxes of Skechers strapped to the back of their bikes. So I know they're coming from the outlet mall. Skechers just doesn't have like the coolness factor. Like you're not going to see Skechers do a collab with Kylie Jenner or something. But you certainly have seen that with Adidas. And they're both just selling sneakers, right? And they're both viable businesses. Although I've heard that Skechers is in trouble perhaps because Skechers is not doing a good enough job of reinforcing their brand as like just an easy, reliable family favorite, you know, basic affordable shoe. They need to dial that in more. Right. But that is a business model that work. That is a branding moment that can work. I also like to have my students do the same exercise that we did with sparkling water with boxed macaroni and cheese. Because there's a similar hierarchy of brands. We have these new sort of premium, quasi natural healthier ones like Goodles. We are a fan of Goodles in this household. We got the middle Annie's like organics, also a big fan of that one because they make a gluten free version. And then we have Kraft, which is like the name brand, national brand. And then we have lots of generic sort of house brand macaroni and cheese. I'm sure there's a good and gather macaroni and cheese. I like to have people talk about what they buy and why and what they'd like to buy and why they don't, just with boxed macaroni and cheese. So if you want to take a moment, pause and think about that for a little bit. Because once again, the ingredients in those boxes are predominantly the same. Right. And they're honestly, they're made in the same factories because a lot of the boxed macaroni and cheese here, at least in the eastern half of the United States, is made here in Lancaster County. And I'm going to tell you, Goodles and Annie's and Krabs and the house brand, they're all made in the same factory with essentially the same ingredients. Get a lot of them at the grocery outlet here. Okay, so we've talked about sparkling water, we've talked about macaroni and cheese, we talked about Skechers. We're seeing that branding and brand really do have an impact on how we feel about what we buy and why we buy it. And the thing that I want to underscore here is that branding really does play a role in everything we buy or just want to buy. Companies with a strong brand identity are thinking about all of it. Of course, packaging, of course, logo and visual aesthetic, of course store and website merchandising. But also who the brand hires to work in stores and offices where it advertises the voice and content of social media posts, the models they use, the sizes a brand chooses to make, where you can buy a brand, the price of that brand's line, who that brand collaborates with, you know, other brands, influencers, celebrities, all of that is a part of the brand. Any product placement in shows and movies, and any sort of give back or social responsibility that the brand promotes or does not promote. The thing I always underscore with my students and clients is that big brands don't just let these things happen. It's all planned out and spelled out often in a brand bible. Seriously, real thing that conveys voice, color, font, models, everything. And I encourage my students and clients to do the same for themselves, to just have it because it makes life a lot easier. And in fact, even the experience of clotheshorse is something that I planned out in advance. It's all super authentic because it's literally me and what I like and who I am as a person. But I decided early on what Clothes Horse would look and sound like to listeners and followers. First off, like the pink and the cute of it all. When I started clotheshorse, most sustainability focused accounts and content were beige, olive, very earth toned. They were all using the same font. Want that's not who I am since it has often made me feel like I don't have a place in the movement because I'm not into those color palettes and that aesthetic. I wanted to show others that they did belong by taking a different graphic approach. So pink, cute, fun, full of kittens. Over the years here and there, someone has said to me that they feel othered by the more feminine vibe of my aesthetic. To that I say listen. I am a non binary person who was assigned female at birth who has all of that imagery stored in my brain and ultimately had to repress it for a big chunk of my adult life and teenage years because I was told that feminine aesthetic was weak, wrong, not cool, not valuable, not intellectual. And I'm here to say otherwise and prove otherwise. So I'm sticking with it. Next, I wanted the way I spoke and the overall voice of Clothes Horse to be casual, fun, conversational, approachable, with you know, some occasional swearing. Why? Because a lot of the things we discuss here can be overwhelming, difficult to pronounce, just like really dark. So it's important that it feels like a good natural conversation. If I spoke like an NPR host, which yes, yes I can do, you haven't seen me in full corporate buyer presentation mode. If I sounded like that here, you might not want to hear what I have to say as much. And listen. Every activist or creator in the sustainability space is taking a different approach to this. Some are belligerent and fight with people all day on the Internet. Others are super formal and polished. I have chosen this more conversational approach. Lastly, it was really important to me that Closed Horse understood, advocated for and spoke to the working class, AKA people like me. Some creators in sustainability focus on luxury, a more financially aspirational lifestyle. Fine. There's an audience for that. Others are super fashion and brand focused. Great. There's also an audience for that. Others are focused on speaking to people within and around the fashion industry. Great. That needs to exist too. I wanted to speak to regular weirdos like myself, people who love thrifting animals, vintage cookbooks and thinking a lot about what they wear, but also want a better life for everyone on this planet. My view has always been that the working class far outnumbers the wealthy in this world and we can and will change the future of this planet with our collective strength and commitment to one another. That's who I wanted my audience to be. The advice I give all of my clients is you are a small business and your brand should reflect you and who you are, what matters to you and how you want to impact the world around you. Now, next week, like I said, we're going to talk about emotional branding and how a lot of big brands, big businesses, big companies, megacorps, got into branding themselves as if they were individuals as well and how it's been kind of confusing for people. Like I said, we're going to talk about that next week. But that was an intentional choice for all these brands to start seeming like people. Even though you're like, pretty sure Wendy's is like a huge corporation, but they sure are funny on Twitter, that kind of thing. If you want to take this idea of branding and reflecting your values one step further, I'll say in the early days of the social media era, people started talking about one's personal brand. I'll just be honest with you. I dated this guy. I It's the raccoon guy. If you're familiar with that episode of the department, he purposely deleted posts from his Facebook. Gosh, this is really taking me back here. He would delete posts from his Facebook page that he felt were not funny or not indicative enough of his personal brand. So he was constantly, like, archiving and re adding and changing the posts on his Facebook profile, which I found, like, completely insufferable. But. But I also kind of get it from a branding perspective. And yeah, like, that was like at least 10 years ago, but lots of people still post with that in mind. And that's why so many pages are just a highlight reel of someone's life. And that's okay, but it's one more reason to not get too hung up in comparing yourself to other people's lives as you see them on social media. I say if you want to embrace this personal brand idea on social media, I don't entirely discourage it because you can take it one step further and use your individual platform and realm of influence to advocate for the things that matter to you and show people how and why you live your life the way you do. I think that's actually really powerful and so much more valuable than, like, showing yet another expensive vacation or like a mega facetuned photo of you in a dress at a wedding or any of the other things that people put out there as part of their personal brand that don't really do much for anyone or anything.
- [61:53]
Brenda
If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothesforce is.
- [61:59]
Amanda
Made possible, possible by the support of listeners like you, just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support.
- [62:08]
Brenda
Blank Cass, or Blanket Coats by Cass, is focused on restoring, renewing, and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft, and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can teach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas and a website will be launched soon@blankcas.com Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand.
- [62:52]
Amanda
Clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots.
- [62:55]
Brenda
Of rad products from other small sustainable businesses.
- [62:59]
Amanda
Our mission is to create a brand.
- [63:01]
Brenda
And community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com Saint Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again than just a store. St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every Thursday@wearsaintevens.com with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram where underscore St. Evans that's ware St. Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and Seoul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram Country Feedback Vintage and vinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen get ready for Rainbows with a side of Giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow Fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knitting, knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com picnic wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waist and maximum authenticity Future Vintage over Future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories?
- [66:18]
Amanda
Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space.
- [66:22]
Brenda
With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you.
- [66:37]
Amanda
From the comfort of your own home.
- [66:39]
Brenda
Responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is.
- [66:52]
Amanda
A startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality.
- [67:01]
Brenda
Made to last for years to come.
- [67:03]
Amanda
Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month, with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com something I've been seeing come up more and more in the world of online political discourse, which, you know, I spend too much time reading, is that these days Americans vote based on vibes. And more than ever that makes sense to me because we make most of our buying decisions based on vibes thanks to brand marketing. Why wouldn't we choose our elected representatives that way? In fact, spoiler in next week's episode where we're going to talk about that 2010 book Emotional Branding, which by the way has become the bible for how brands market to us in the 21st century. I forced myself to read that book at the beach because I really know how to have a good time, really. But I kept turning to Dustin and we're just sitting in our beach chairs side by side and letting the Waves crash up over our feet drinking, you know, some sparkling water. I kept turning him into saying, like, wow, everything in this book really is the paradigm for brand branding and getting people into your brand that we have used at every job I've had. I just kept saying it over and over again. I felt as I was reading the book that I had already memorized that book years ago without reading it it. And anyway, in Emotional Branding, the writer cites Obama's first presidential campaign and its message of hope as one way brands can market themselves to customers without seeming as if they are selling anything, which is so cynical and gross. But also, it is. It's all vibes, you know, I'll tell you another thing we're going to talk about when we talk about emotional branding next week is really, it was this sort of, like, sea change where it was like, like, how can we sell people things without acting like we're selling people things like, all the time? And social media made that a lot easier until I would say now I feel like it is very obvious to me that things are an ad on social media. I feel like when I watch Hulu or any other streaming app with the ads, commercials are horrible now, not amusing, very transparently selling me things, definitely not entertaining me or getting me to buy into something. But there was this time period for a big chunk of my adult life where advertising was sneaky. Advertising was sponsoring music festivals and influencers and unboxing experiences and all these other things that were brands creating vibes with us without us really knowing it. So how did we get to the point where we are now where different companies can sell us cans of flavored water at a variety of different prices just because of vibes? Well, the concept of brand and branding goes all the way back to the literal branding that is burning a symbol into the skin or fur of livestock and enslaved humans. In ancient times, yeah, that's where branding originated. As farmers, makers and traders realized that these symbols could convey the origin and quality of a commodity, they began to add these sort of proto logos to their products. For example, archaeologists and historians have found seals on ancient pottery around the world. And these seals were also used on shipping containers of all varieties hundreds of and hundreds of years ago. And some of the brands we know now originated in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, like the Bass Brewery. The Bass Brewery began applying its iconic red triangle to casks of beer in the mid-1800s. And in 1876, the red triangle became the first trademark registered by the British government. Twinings Tea has been using the same logo since 1787. If you fast forward a little bit to the late 1800s, we're in the Industrial revolution, right? And manufacturers were starting to realize that giving their products a personality, that is some branding, some vibes, drove more sales. And as more and more of these products were mass produced, these manufacturers were finding that people were a little distrustful of things made in a factory because they had been buying them locally or making stuff themselves for literally all of human history up to that point. That's when the concept of a brand and a brand Persona became essential. For example, in the 1870s, the Quaker Oats Company began using the portrait of a Quaker man on its packaging in place of a logo. And maybe I just eat too much oatmeal. Big oatmeal fan over here. I can close my eyes and picture that dude. He's like burned into my psyche. Very successful branding on the part of the Quaker Oats Company, believe it or not. I mean, we grew up just like, oh, there's that white dude on this thing of oatmeal, whatever. We just identify it with oatmeal, right? But back then, it really humanized the Quaker Oat Company as a company where people worked and possibly they were Quaker and possibly they were this guy. It was very successful in making people trust the products of Quaker Oats. Pears Soap was kind of the pioneer in creating a brand back then, running campaigns in the late 1800s featuring trending sculptures and paintings of the time. Very successful. It distributed penny sized coins stamped with Pears soap that allegedly you could use in place of a penny at stores. The original viral campaign, am I right? It hired the first ever skincare influencer, British socialite Lily Langtree, to promote its soap because of her beautiful skin. And in the early 1900s, they started running an annual Miss Pairs competition where parents could enter their children in a contest to win the highly coveted role. Ambassador. And the Internet assures me that many winners of the Ms. Pairs competition over the years went on to have very successful modeling and acting careers. How about Campbell's Soup? This is a brand you're probably a little bit more familiar with. Although, come on, you know about Quaker Oats. Campbell's Soup solidified its iconic red and white packaging really early on, making it already, like you say Campbell's Soup to someone, they picture that can. Right, Right. Just generations now feel that way. They also invested heavily in advertising at a time when advertising was still sort of a new thing. And that paid off immediately for them. Like, people became aware of Campbell's Soup as a brand of food and as a trusted nutritious brand of food. In 1900, J. Walter Thompson published the first ever ad explaining trademark advertising, I. E. Logos. What a scintillating ad. It was an ad for his advertising services and it is widely considered the first explanation of brand management. He went on via his advertising agency to create some game changing campaigns that really did change the way companies marketed their products forever. Like it set the standard. For example, in 1915, JWT, that was the abbreviation for his agency, JWT was hired to create a campaign for Luxe Soap. Not to be confused with Luxe Amazing but flattening jeans. In the early stages of planning a campaign for Luxe, they noted that in the current packaging it was recommended as the best soap for washing woolens and fine fabrics. And this unlocked an entirely new brand image. So many vibes for Luxe. He recommended that the company lean into that particular aspect of Luxe, marketing it as an upscale laundry option for fine clothing and textiles. Rather than associating Luxe with the drudgery of housework and laundry, customers would begin to see Luxe as a status symbol. Washing with Luxe meant that you had a taste for the finer things in life, including fine garments. And the soap especially created to wash said fine garments. It makes me think of the social media trope of taking shelfies of your skincare products. You know, we get it, people know that you take care of your skin. But what you really want people to know is that you curated an assortment of fine and aesthetically pleasing products to do it. Products that probably cost a lot more than the stuff at the drugstore. Right. Lux kind of pioneered that idea. So yeah, in the early 1900s, we see more and more companies adopting better packaging, slogans, mascots, even jingles, and assigning an official budget for advertising. And in the 1940s, companies began to realize, thanks to examples like the Lux Soap campaign, that customers were actually developing relationships with the brands they consumed regularly. No one saw that coming. Research into consumers thoughts, feelings and behaviors became an essential part of any advertising and branding strategy. And they began to realize, as they did this research, that consumers wanted to buy from brands with personality that either match their own or at least matched who they aspired to be to appropriately match their customers, or at least their customers aspirational version of themselves. They began to heavily profile their customers. Where they lived, how much money they had, how many kids they did or did not have, their life goals, how to gain their trust, all of these things. So much time and energy, research, resources, going into understanding the minds of consumers. And in the digital era, that actually became even easier with plenty of tech companies. Hi meta, hi Google. These companies more than happy to sell our digital footprints and behaviors to them. I would say now, more than in the history of any other time of capitalism, brands know so much detail about our lives, so much more than they ever knew before. But rewinding back to the middle of the last century, where we talk all the time about how really like the middle of the 20th century, aka the 1900s, is where consumerism really takes off. In that part of the century, brand management teams popped up at every big company, and the sort of graduates of those teams moved on to smaller companies to implement what they learned along the way, from packaging to advertising to pricing, and over time to social media. So now any brand with any kind of resources had a whole team or at least one person working on curating that brand's presence, you know, maintaining the vibes. In the 1970s and 80s, companies in all industries were deep into their branding, right? From food, to fossil fuels, to tobacco, even to clothing. We see people beginning to embrace name brands on their clothing, in their clothing, even wearing logos outside of their clothing. But by then, people were also very brand loyal in many aspects of their lives. Insurance, cigarettes, cleaning products, soda, food, you name it. People were low key, buying the same thing over and over again because they just always had bought it. Or maybe at the same time, they had a deep relationship with that brand. At the very least, they appreciated the reliability of that brand, right? No surprises, no disappointments. Some brands felt that maybe this brand loyalty was preventing consumers from trying their brand. So began the era of blind taste test campaigns and commercials essentially showing customers that with the brand label removed, they might discover that their usual brand wasn't that great. That perhaps they had just been buying stuff based on vibes, which is kind of meta, right? We're like, oh, hey, we create the vibes also, but disregard the vibes, but only when we tell you to ignore the vibes. So before we continue with this part.
- [81:01]
Brenda
Of the episode, this conversation about blind.
- [81:04]
Amanda
Taste test, I want to tell you that as I was doing my research, I became very concerned that that term may be ableist. Just because it was used in the past doesn't mean it's the right term to be using now. And as humans evolve, society evolves, language evolves, and it's constantly happening, right? So I did a bunch of digging around and I couldn't find anything. I don't know, people really aren't talking about this on the Internet, which sort of surprised me. But one alternative that I did encounter online was the term masked taste test. So for the rest of this episode, we're going to use that term when I am speaking about these kinds of taste tests and marketing campaigns. I'm going to play two commercials of the 80s back to back for you. The first is the Pepsi Challenge. Mr. Dustin Travis White told me at some point in his life he owned a thrifted Pepsi Challenge scarf. Sadly, it's not in our house currently. The Pepsi Challenge was a campaign that asserted that Pepsi tasted better than Coca Cola in masked taste tests. And if customers would just try Pepsi without the labeling, they would see that, right. The other is from Folgers, which is an instant coffee. And it had a long time hidden camera campaign where it would swap the regular coffee at a fine restaurant for its instant Folgers crystals. And what they were basically saying is, hey, you think instant coffee isn't good or is lower quality than the name brand coffee beans you're buying? Let us assure you that if you took away all the packaging and the name, you would enjoy this more. So let's listen to these commercials.
- [82:59]
C
Coca Cola says it's the real thing. But Pepsi Cola believes that when it comes to callers, the only real thing thing is taste. That's why the Pepsi Challenge has been asking thousands of people across the country to let their own taste decide. And the fact is nationwide, more people prefer the taste of Pepsi over Coca Cola. Pepsi, Pepsi, Pepsi. I like Pepsi a lot better. Pepsi tastes better. Taste, that's the real thing. So take the Pepsi Challenge and let your taste decide. San Francisco. It's been called a gourmet coffee capital of the world. One reason is the Coffee Cantata gourmet coffee house. Here you can sit and savor some of the richest, most flavorful coffees anywhere. Today we're secretly replacing the Cantata's freshly ground coffee with mountain grown Folgers crystals. Will it be rich enough? Let's watch.
- [83:49]
Amanda
Rich, deep, nice flavor. And it smells good too.
- [83:52]
C
I love excellent.
- [83:54]
Amanda
Smells good, very rich. This is delicious. It's fold is quickly no.
- [84:01]
C
Tastes like a very good cup of ground coffee.
- [84:03]
Amanda
It doesn't taste like instant. And I thought I was critiquing coffee house coffee.
- [84:08]
C
Mountain grown Folgers crystals. Coffee rich enough to be served in America's finest gourmet coffee houses.
- [84:13]
Amanda
What I do find interesting about these commercials is they do raise the question pretty obviously are we just buying things based on vibes rather than what we actually prefer or will enjoy more Like I said, it's kind of a wild proposition from the advertising industry whose entire job is Vibes. But, okay, I'll take it. I do this to myself, honestly, when I'm thrifting for clothing. Like, I don't let myself look at the brand label until I'm like, I've tried it on and I think I'm gonna buy it or not buy it. Like, I feel like I've made a pretty concrete decision too many times. Honestly, I've spotted something that I've loved. Like, I liked the fabric or the print. I saw it from afar. I was like, that's exactly what I want. I go up, I take it the rack, and then I see it's got an Old Navy or Chico's label and I put it back on the rack and for no good reason other than Vibes or the baggage that I have in my brain about those brands. But if it's something that I would wear and like, it shouldn't matter. So, yeah, I kind of do a masked taste test when I'm shopping secondhand. The last thing I want to discuss in this episode is heritage brands. Brands. I'm sure that phrase unlocks some logos and brand names for you. Whether it's Levi's, Red Wing shoes, Burberry, Pendleton, Coca Cola, Carhartt. Basically, brands that have been around for generations with a strong legacy of quality and consistency. Our respect for them may be driven by nostalgia, like, oh, my dad always wore Pendleton shirts. Or maybe we just know that they have accumulated a lot of goodwill over the years for staying authentic and consistent. We often have an emotional connection to them or at least a high level of respect for them. But the thing is, in the 21st century, the fast fashion ification and the private equity of it all has changed who owns some of these heritage brands and how they work, even the quality of what they make and sell. And that kind of makes the brand goodwill, these vibes that they have accumulated over decades, decades. Kind of false, right? In my recent episode with Ariel of Cobbled Goods, we talked about how this is particularly evident in the world of footwear. For example, Birkenstocks. That was a family owned business for more than a century. The family had actually been making shoes since the 1700s. But they were bought by a private equity firm in 2021 and went public in 2023. And you know what? But you can tell the company now sells a ton of plastic shoes to big chains around the world. And it has made life a lot harder for the small shoe stores that carried the brand for generations. And word on the street is that the quality is just not there like it once was. Doc Martens, another example that Ariel cited, that was bought by a private equity firm in 2013, then it went public in 2021. And there, once again, the market is oversaturated with trendier Doc styles and the quality has gone downhill substantially. You know, the year before last, I bought a secondhand pair of Doc's sandals from Poshmark. But it was definitely a situation where the person bought them and they didn't fit them and they couldn't return them, so they'd never been worn. And I'm going to tell you, with only a few wears, the sole of the shoe straight up fell off while I was at the grocery store. And because of the way the SH was manufactured, it was completely impossible to repair it. You couldn't stitch the sole back on because of the way the upper part of the shoe was constructed and the materials it was made from. The sole itself was strangely hollow, so you couldn't glue it. We tried all kinds of things. I took it to a shoe person who was like, these are a lost cause. And I see this as really like anachronistic to what Doc Martens was for a very long time. And, and not surprising when you see where the brand is now and who owns it and, you know, likely what the priorities of the brand are at this point. So this brings me to Authentic Brand Group, which I have mentioned numerous times here on the podcast. I mentioned this in the Shein episodes and in my conversation with Ariel. Are you ready for some just like rich people, corporate shenanigans stuff? Let's get into it. Okay, so currently Forever 21 is run by Spark Group, which is a joint venture between Authentic Brands Group. And we'll talk more about what Authentic Brands Group does in a few moments. Simon Property Group, which is a big time mall slumlord. And I. That's what my friend who works in commercial real estate calls them. And she's. She explained to me why, and she's totally right. Once you know that about Simon Malls, you start to see it when you go to one. I'll just say that. And the third partner in Spark Group is. Wait for it. Shein. Yes, Shein owns one third of Spark Group. And in exchange, Spark Group became a minority shareholder in Shein. This happened in 2023. Well, fast forward to 2025, as in this year that we're in right now, Spark Group merged with a company that I would consider a heritage brand. In the U.S. jCPenney, Spark Group, then rebranded as Catalyst Brands. And Catalyst Brands now owns and runs a few big brands with legacies of different lengths. On the younger side we've got Aeropost Style which was founded in 1987. Brooks Brothers, which was founded in 1818, definitely considered a heritage brand. Eddie Bauer, founded in 1920, also a highly regarded heritage brand. Lucky Brand Jeans, which is from 1990, still has sort of a. Not exactly a heritage brand, but it has been highly regarded for quite some time as a maker of high quality denim. Nautica from 1983 and of course JCPenney which was founded in 1902. Which means shein is a partial owner of all of them. Of Aeropostale, of Brooks Brothers, of Eddie Bauer, of Lucky Brand, of Nautica, and of course course of JCPenney. And many customers have complained of incredibly declining quality among the brands, specifically Brooks Brothers and Eddie Bauer. And I guess, let's be honest here, if you're boycotting Shein, then you should also be boycotting JCPenney and all the other brands on this list because they are, whether we like it or not, driving revenue for Shein. Okay, so let's talk more about Authentic Brands Group, which is part owner of Catalyst Brands. Authentic Brands Group owns the intellectual property of more than 50 brands at this point. Remember when I talked about intellectual property a few episodes ago, I explained to you that Michaels have bought the intellectual property of Joanne, including brand names and marketing assets. I cited other examples of this happening, like with Toys R, when a company like Authentic Brands Group buys the intellectual property of a brand, they aren't interested in the inventory or the real estate or even employees of that company. They just want the brand's reputation and the vibes it has accumulated over the years. And of course the trademarks and customer list. Authentic Brands Group, which I'm just going to call ABG from now on for the rest of this episode. ABG is owned by billionaire Jamie Salter, man who owns 12 houses. I just had to throw that out there. A not so fun fact. His company scoops up the intellectual property of bankrupt or struggling companies and then it licenses it out to other manufacturers who get to make product with those brand labels while paying royalties, which royalties are a portion of sales to abg. So basically, basically what's happening is here is when you see these brands and I'll list some of them and I can link to a list where you can see more in the show notes when you buy something from one of these brands, it's almost like you're kind of buying it, like from a zombie brand, a zombie version of that brand, I guess, because it's not most likely made in the same factories anymore, which means that it's probably not made of the same materials or with the same level of craftsmanship. It certainly is not designed and developed and worked on by the same employee. And honestly, these companies that are licensing these brand names, yes, they. They care to a certain extent about brand image because, you know, they obviously want to make money, but they're not invested in it in the same way that the original owners of these companies would have been. Right? And so they're a little less nervous to cut corners and do some weird stuff, make some bad decisions. In fact, one of the primary criticisms of ABG and Jamie Salter is not that he owns 12 houses, which, by the way, is gross, in case you wondered where I stood on the issue. No, one of the main criticisms of him and ABG is that because the cost of the licensing fees and royalties companies must pay to license these brands is so high. Like basically what they're paying just to use these brands lately, labels, it compromises the quality of the product sold to customers. And if you listen to the re release of episode one last week, or you've been following along long enough, you know that companies will always cut product quality in order to maintain a profit margin. Now, it's interesting, as we say that out loud, and we know that these brands run off of vibes. How do brands feel like it's okay to sell subpar product to their customers and it will be good for their brand? Hmm. We'll talk about that more next week. But obviously something that I think about a lot, too. But when you think about these companies, manufacturers, right, who are licensing these brand names, when they. They're paying royalties for every unit they sell, they're definitely going to cut corners on fabric and sewing and trims, and they're probably squeezing the factory, too. That's how they make the math. Math. There's been, like I said, a lot of criticism of the quality of these brands, and it's not surprising to me. And the list of ABG brands is massive, spanning so many aesthetics and generations. Billabong, Juicy Couture, Quicksilver, Nine West, Champion, Izod, Roxy, Volcom, Fry, Sperry, Hunter, Airwalk, Rockport, Fredericks of Hollywood, Treetorn, Dockers. That one's in process right now. ABG is going to buy Dockers from Levi Reebok and even Sports Illustrated. And there was a whole desktop like a Year or two ago where the company that was licensing Sports Illustrated from abg, so essentially publishing Sports Illustrated, but this like zombie version of Sports Illustrated came under fire because someone, gosh, sometimes I just want to say God bless the Internet sleuths of the world. I'm so grateful for you. Someone did the work of realizing and tracking down and proving that a lot of the writers being featured on the Sports Illustrated website were actually AI generated photos of people who didn't exist because the articles were being written by AI. And so as far as I know, abg, after this whole dust up, revoked the licensing rights of Sports Illustrated to that company and is now supposedly running it on its own. I have no idea. But just even to think that, like we might think we're reading a publication, but we're reading a weird zombie AI version of that publication is pretty, pretty dark. Pretty, pretty dark, right? When you hear this long list of things that I read to you, which is just the beginning, right, of this long list of brands that ABG owns, you can't help but think, think, wow, most brand labels are kind of nonsense at this point. These brands aren't being made by their original owners. The quality and price and even availability has changed. And if a brand is just intellectual property to be bought and traded, then why does it even matter? Do vibes overpower quality and consistency? And why, if they do, why do we let that happen? More appropriately in the masked taste test of say, Aeropostale and Shein, could the customer tell any difference between the two? What about Juicy Couture and Forever 21? If all logos and labels were removed, would it essentially be the same product? Could today's fry boots trick an entire fancy restaurant full of well heeled patrons trends? Probably not. And I want to be clear that while the examples I have given you have been specifically clothing and shoes, this phenomenon of companies being bought, sold and harvested for the intellectual property can be found in every industry and product category. And that that brings us to the end of this episode, our first installment in this series. And I want to give you some homework. In fact, I'm going to try to give you some homework. At the end of each episode in this series, I want you to make a list of your favorite long running brands. It can be clothing, shoes, food, makeup, restaurants, you name it. Now look up who owns them. Now. Are you surprised? Does that change how you feel about them? I want to hear about it. If you find something really interesting that really does change how you feel about a brand, send it my way and we can discuss it in the next episode. One last thing I just want to call out before I sign off for this week is that the release of the episodes in this series may be a bit chaotic because the rest of the summer is very hectic for Dustin and me. Next week I have an event in Philadelphia the next weekend. We have guests in from out of town. We're trying to convince Dustin's bandmate to move to Lancaster, which would be amazing for him. The following week I'm going to New York City for a trade show. Then it's my birthday and then Dustin goes on tour for two weeks and then it's September. So stay patient. But also keep an eye out for episodes on strange days of the week and do your homework. And I want to hear from you because my goal of this series is for us to untangle our relationship with Brad Brands and realize something about ourselves. Like, this is going to be a psychological experience for us, right? We're going to be unpacking some stuff along the way, and if you had weird feelings about Brands after this episode, just wait. You're going to have even more after the next few. Anyway, that's all for this week. So this is where I tell you thank you for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse. Hosted, Written, Researched, Edited all the things Things all the Marketing Books Read by me Amanda Lee McCarty if you liked what you heard, please leave A Rating A Review Subscribe Tell your friends all the things if you'd like to support my work financially, there are many ways you can do that. You can find that all in the show notes and in my profile on every social media platform except for TikTok. Well, it's still linked there, by the way. I did want to just let you know because someone asked me why I'm not posting on TikTok anymore. And ultimately it was just I came across this account on TikTok that had more than 700,000 followers. And all of those followers were just there to make fun of this woman's body. How she cared for her children, her appearance, where she lived her life. They weren't there to like support her or learn anything. And it just for me was like, yeah, TikTok is not the place for me. It's too mean. And I'm not making any traction there because TikTok. TikTok suppresses any content about fast fashion, especially if it's about shein. Not surprised. And I just don't think that TikTok is the bastion of free speech and truth that people think it is. It's a lot of misinformation. It's a lot of people behaving badly, and it's a lot, a lot of ads. And I just, I didn't want to waste my time there anymore. It was also really psychologically challenging because people are brave, brutal. So I'm done with TikTok. I left my profile up. There's some old posts there, but I won't be posting there again in the future. But you can find my content all over the place on all the other social media platforms because I am trying to be there where all of you are. Lastly, but of course, never leastly, thank you to Mr. Justin Travis White for our music and audio support and I will talk to you soon. Bye. Ram.