← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 252: Survival is Political, with Lisa of Retro Housewife Goes Green
01:56:59
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that feels like we're about two, three years into 2026. If you're listening to this later, I'm gonna tell you the day. I'm recording. This is in the first half of January. That's how this year has been. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 252. Happy New Year, everyone. And could bad stuff stop happening soon, please? Anyway, this episode is coming a couple weeks later than expected than to a very romantic case of COVID that Dustin and I both had. We're finally feeling pretty, pretty much better and ready to get down to work. This week's guest is here to talk to us about their own experiences becoming activated politically. And she's gonna share things we can all do to be a part of shutting down the bad stuff and the bad people. As you know, I'm moving away from having guests on the podcast. It will be more of like a special thing based on the stories I'm currently telling. But when I Internet friended Lisa Sharp of Retro Housewife Goes Green, I knew that she would be someone really incredible for all of you to meet. Now, Lisa is going to tell you all about what she does and why she does it, and I think it is exactly what we all need to hear right now. In January of 2026, I actually recorded my interview with her before I went to Japan in the fall. But listening to it this week while I was editing, I was like, wow, I needed this. So I hope you will enjoy our conversation too. In fact, let's jump right in because I have more stuff to tell you afterwards. Okay, Lisa, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?
- [02:31]
B
Hi, I'm Lisa Sharp. I'm a content creator. My main website is Retro Housewife Goes Green. I post about vintage homemaking and sustainability and try and help people learn those things without some of the conspiracy theory and right wing propaganda that is on a lot of similar sites. Because there's no reason you need that with learning how to clean your bathroom. That's not necessary.
- [03:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, when you say it out loud, it makes perfect sense. But you are right. Like, the reason you caught my eye on threads was that you were teaching these things, but you also weren't like, teaching right wing values. In fact, you have, like, really strong, like, leftist beliefs. And I was like, this is amazing. This is, this is what I have been searching for. Because I. I think that homework is very, very important and I take great pride in it. But I've always felt like, oh, is it weird and, like, right wing of me to feel that way. Am I gonna stop vaccinating my kids next or something? You know, like, it feels like it's a slippery slope. So I feel like you just, like, offer something so unique that so many people want and need. And as soon as I discovered you, I was like, wow. I feel like so many people who listen to Clotheshorse would. They would just be so excited to learn about Lisa and find her work. So thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.
- [04:04]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [04:06]
A
So, like I said, there are a lot of things I love about what you do, but something that, like I said, made me really reach out to you, is that you are a very refreshing alternative to trad wives because you show that you can be a homemaker, you can enjoy cooking and caring for your family, and also, you know, care about the planet and the people. How. How did you avoid the trad wife pipeline?
- [04:34]
B
Well, I think part of it is I was raised by strong women that were never going to be fit that kind of mold.
- [04:42]
A
Yeah.
- [04:44]
B
And I just never was one to be listening to a man and being subservient.
- [04:55]
A
Right.
- [04:56]
B
I mean, to my fault at some points, because when my husband and I are dating, there was a copperhead by me, and I didn't realize it, and my husband was telling me, come here. He was my boyfriend at the time, and I was like, why? And this went on long enough, and he didn't want to tell me because he was afraid I'd freak out and step on the snake.
- [05:14]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [05:15]
B
So he eventually just picked me up and moved me and was like, there's a copperhead by your foot.
- [05:23]
A
Yeah. No, I feel that I definitely. I can't imagine being in a situation where I was subservient to a man. And, like, fortunately, my husband is very comfortable with me bossing him around. Sometimes I'm just a better. I'm better at time management and project management. You know, like, if we had to rely on my husband Dustin's, like, to, like, organize our lives, we would be in chaos. And I mean that in a really loving way. Like, some of us just, like, you know, organizing things. That's our strong suit.
- [05:53]
B
Yeah. My parents were definitely partners, and that's what was modeled to me. It was never that either of them was the boss or, quote, worth pants.
- [06:04]
A
That's good. Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to be the boss either. And I rarely even wear pants in real life, so I don't. I don't want to wear them literally or figuratively. But, you know, I think it is interesting. So you live in. Do you live in Oklahoma, Am I right? Yeah, right. And so, you know, you, like, you know, you're not, like, from one of the coastal cities, and that would make me assume. And I say this because, you know, I live in a highly rural area, too. And while I live near a small city that is very blue, where I actually live is very red. Is the community around you, like, do you find that you are maybe different than your neighbors? Or is Oklahoma more progressive than people, like, you know, who live in Pennsylvania, like me might imagine?
- [06:58]
B
It's a weird dynamic because I live in the town that is the headquarters for the Chickasaw Nation, and the dynamic in indigenous cultures is very different than the rest of the state. And so there's some more progressive leanings because of that. But also it's a college town, and that always lends itself to being a little bit more progressive. So the town I'm in is still very red, but not as much as a lot of the rural parts of Oklahoma. So there are pockets of blue dots in this area. And we have some areas throughout Oklahoma, especially Norman, where the University of Oklahoma is, is inching towards being purple at least. But, yeah, we are the only state that was completely red voted entirely for Trump. So, wow, it is a very, very red state. But there are those pockets, and we somehow seem to find each other.
- [08:11]
A
I mean, isn't that true? You know, my sister actually lives in Tulsa, and, I mean, I'm sure, like, that's like, a city, but she moved there, like, I don't know, four or five years ago, and we were like, oh, that won't last long. And she just loves it there. Like, she has found her place. And it always is surprising to me, kind of just because she grew up in Oregon in a very, like, liberal zone of the United States, and now she lives in, like you said, a state that went completely red. But, you know, like, on the topic of politics, and that's not all we're going to talk about today, but I do think, and I suspect you feel the same way, like, the way we live our everyday lives and the decisions we make, they are inherently political, right? So when people are like, oh, I don't know why you have to talk about politics, when you talk about clothes, or I'm sure people say to you, like, why do you have to talk about politics when you're talking about, like, recipes or whatever, all these things are political. Just like our existences are political. Right? So you told me when we were like, prepping for this episode that you actually were once a Republican and you left the party in 2012. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
- [09:31]
B
Yeah, I was not only a Republican. I was very active in the party up until I left. I helped on some campaigns as a teenager. I was a page at state conventions and at some fundraisers and various events. My parents were the county chairs for the local Republican Party. I was a district delegate. I think it was just kind of assumed you would be Republican around here. Yeah, we were homeschooled, and we were actually one of the more progressive families in my homeschool group because most of them were in a religious cult. But we still more Republican, just not as far to the right. But the district convention where I was a delegate was definitely a light bulb moment of being like, I don't belong here. I can't justify just being socially liberal and fiscally conservative anymore. And there is a lot of sexism in that district convention that just really rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm like, I don't fit in here. And I left the party. I didn't change my registration right away, but I was definitely done at that point and ended up soon after working on a couple Democrat campaigns.
- [11:01]
A
Oh, wow.
- [11:02]
B
It was not a gradual switch. It was like, I'm done. I'm going to the other side immediately and I will help them. When?
- [11:10]
A
That's amazing. I mean, was there, like, a last straw for you where you were like, that's it. Today's the day.
- [11:16]
B
That convention. And that was like kind of a lot of our. The group that I was with, final straw, because we were trying to move the local party more towards being at least socially liberal, it was a bunch of millennials. We took over our county party. We took every seat, and we were the only ones at the district for our county. And we joined up with a bunch of other people who had taken over various counties in the state, and we almost got several more socially liberal leaning people in, and that was kind of all of ours. If we couldn't fully change the state party, we were done. And that is what happened. Almost all of us that were involved in that movement left and are now mostly leftists at this point.
- [12:12]
A
I mean, this is actually a really inspiring story outside of, like, the party idea of it or anything, but just that, like, you and other millennials were so involved in local and state politics because while tons of people would say that they're super political and they're posting all the time on social media. How many of them are actually involved in their local and state election process, you know, governments, like all of that stuff there. Because that's kind of where. I don't know. I say this after living in Texas for a couple years. I feel like that's the state you live in has just as much impact on your day to day life as the country you live in. But we tend to forget about that.
- [12:56]
B
Yeah. And both my background of being homeschooled and being involved in the political party and stuff, even as a kid, that's how we got where we are now. It didn't happen overnight. People are like, how did we get to where we're now falling to fascism? Because for decades now, the Republican Party has been taking over school boards, They've been taking over local elections. They worked from the bottom up. Democrats tend to think midterms and presidential election and forget the rest.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah, it's totally true.
- [13:31]
B
That's where we're failing.
- [13:32]
A
Yeah.
- [13:33]
B
And that's how they were able to make their way in. And a lot of these people literally raised their children to be in these positions.
- [13:43]
A
Wow.
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B
And we're seeing those kids now become adults. And the ones where the brainwashing was successful, they're taking over political positions and doing what they were taught to do. And it's terrifying because I know what they want as an end result. And it's worse than a lot of people realize.
- [14:07]
A
Yeah, no, I believe that. And it is so true that if people don't show up to these local elections and, you know, all of the, like sort of operations of their local government, uh, things get really bad really fast. Like, so I said, you know, I live in the country outside, like a small city. And Lancaster, the small city is very blue. Lancaster county as a whole, where I live is. It was called like 10 years ago, I think by the Guardian, the refugee resettlement capital of the United States. Which means even though I live in a very rural area, we have a very diverse population. Not necessarily down in the part of county I live in because it's mostly Amish people and MAGA people, but like in town and other parts of the county, very diverse. And that is because this is a hub for, like, the Mennonites. And so the Mennonites are really engaged in refugee resettlement. So they've been bringing people to Lancaster county since, like, the Vietnam War. So we have a very, very diverse population here. And it's something that all of us take a lot of pride in. And there was this Push amongst Republican politicians here in Lancaster county to try to end Lancaster sanctuary city status. This was just six months ago, because obviously, more than ever, this kind of stuff is super important. And if you are a county that is a refugee resettlement capital of the United States, you need to provide safety for immigrants. And essentially the whole measure was struck down before it could be even voted on. Because the Mennonites themselves activated themselves in a major way and were showing up at every single meeting in full force to be like, this city cannot give up its sanctuary city status. We need to protect people. And for me, that was super interesting because the Mennonites themselves, I think people would probably refer to them as a religious cult or at least a deeply religious community, which means a lot of the socially liberal things that I believe in, they might not. But where we have common ground is that people should get to be safe and free. And it was. I think that what excited me most about that was this collaboration amongst people who may not agree on everything, but knew that they needed to go full force together to protect people. And I just feel like we need so much more of that right now than we've, like, ever needed before. I think the other thing, which I'm sure you would agree with me, this is on the right, people can compromise and agree with people in a way that we can't on the left. And it's been really frustrating to me. Even though I would say I have some, like, really far left beliefs, I still am just like, can we please just take care of people? Like, do what it takes.
- [17:15]
B
Well, and the thing about these smaller elections is they're easier to win because people have gotten complacent and they don't vote in those elections.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah, it's true.
- [17:24]
B
So you don't need large numbers to take over. Norman, Oklahoma, figured this out. Their last city council elections, young voters turned up and they knocked all but I think one MAGA Republican off their city council.
- [17:44]
A
Wow.
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B
And turned it not only blue, but their mayor is extremely progressive. And they put in several pretty far left people because they showed up.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah.
- [18:01]
B
And they didn't have, you know, just like they don't have the numbers if everybody voted. But the Republicans didn't show up either because they're complacent and think they don't have to.
- [18:13]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure. Especially in the MAGA era, those people don't show up to vote for school board elections and whatnot. And like here, everybody's been able to rally together enough to, you know, prevent some pretty bad takeovers of the various school boards here by right wing people who wanted to, like, you know, ban books and take evolution out of schools and all of those things. Basically it was just like, hey, you have to come and vote in this election. And everybody, like, I saw Reddit being used as like a means of connecting people and getting them to go vote in these elections. Elections that I think most people might not have even really known were going on. Because it is true that a lot of people just think of like midterms, maybe presidential for sure, maybe if it's like their governor, maybe their mayor. But generally people are pretty disconnected from the fact that there are literally elections, like all the time, not just in November and not just every four years. And it can like, you're right. Like, if you show up, you have a greater chance of winning because very few people know about it. Yeah, yeah, that's really great advice. I mean, I hope people, like, hear this and are like, huh, you're right, I should get active on a local level. Because we don't talk about that very often on social media. It's always like. And to be fair, right now, there's a lot of really outrageous things happening. That's where we are. And I get it. Cause me too, I wake up every morning and I'm like, so spiraling. I think I told you when we were preparing that I, my husband and I have a clock radio. That's what we use to wake up. And it wakes us up to npr, which used to be a pretty enjoyable experience, but this year it's like the moment it's 7:00am NPR is talking about the thing that's going to upset me most that day when the alarm goes off and I'm like, no, not that, please. And I'm angry all day. But anyway, there are wins to be that come from your local and state politics and being involved in that. And you also then get to meet your neighbors, which is pretty cool too. So, yes, we both agree that things are pretty heinous right now. You laughed when I mentioned that. I will tell you that I've always been extremely leftist, but definitely just how I kind of approach the world has changed a lot since even 2016. So what's happening in my life this year is not necessarily that different than it's been in the past, but I still feel that how I live and approach things this year has had to change. Have you felt that in yourself? Like, I don't know. How are you coping with the world right now?
- [21:02]
B
Not well.
- [21:04]
A
Same, same. Um, like, how has that changed like what you talk about on Retro Housewife Goes Green.
- [21:15]
B
It made the most difference in my business. My personal life hasn't changed as much other than my family has hard conversations about what we'll do if things get worse.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, same.
- [21:29]
B
And my husband, I have had the conversation of do we need to leave and but from business prospect, like I was never hiding the fact that I was liberal. I had posted that I was pro choice at times. I did a brand deal with ad choice at one point on masking. Like it was never hidden but it wasn't at the forefront. So I definitely had a lot of trad wives and right wing people following me that occasionally when they'd see these posts would mass unfollow me. But then I'd get more again.
- [22:05]
A
Right.
- [22:06]
B
And after Trump won again, I just was like, I can't do this anymore. And I posting normal stuff just feels like something I can't do. And at that point I had a very small Instagram following and just started posting reels that were very much left leaning and very honest about how I feel about things. And I thought I was gonna lose my platform entirely. And surprisingly I have only grown and I mean there definitely have been big unfollows but it's been more people following me because there's definitely hole in that niche of a bunch of people were trying to unfollow all the right leaning people and they're like now I don't know who to follow but on my website I've been posting a lot more about the Great Depression and World War II for some reason.
- [23:11]
A
Oh, for some reason.
- [23:14]
B
It's a mystery.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:16]
B
I posted a real the other day where I made a ration recipe and I was like, well if we're gonna bring back fascism, I'm bringing back ration recipes.
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A
Seriously.
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B
And you know, it's just shifting less from the ideal like 1950s stuff that I posted more before and more I'm sharing more about during the war and the Great Depression because that's what we unfortunately are relating to more now. And I feel like we can take more wisdom from that side than ever before.
- [23:56]
A
It's, it's.
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B
Unfortunately most of what I know about previously was the Allies in World War II. That's always the side that I've related more towards. And now it's like I never really thought about what it'd be like to be German or Polish or French during World War II.
- [24:16]
A
Oh, wow. I guess living that side. Yeah, I guess we are living on that side.
- [24:22]
B
It feels very much Like, Poland, to me, even though, like, obviously the dictators in our country, but the constant people being like, it can't get that bad. It won't happen. There was a lot of that in Poland up to the point that Germany was on the ground putting people in camps.
- [24:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
The denial that it could happen just was very strong. And I feel like we have some of that going on here now where we think we have these safety nets that are gonna hold up, but they're getting weak.
- [25:04]
A
I know. I mean, every day is something that I never thought I would have to read happening. And I knew things were gonna be bad. I was, like, yelling at anyone who had listened last year, like, listen, do not underestimate what this administration is gonna do. Like, you have to show up and you have to vote and you have to spread the word. And I still am shocked. Like, earlier this morning, I read that hopefully this will be antiquated news by the time this episode comes out. But, like, Trump was taking over the train station in Washington, D.C. and I was just like, wow, that is like some fascist shit right there. I mean, like, what?
- [25:42]
B
I have a friend who's a veteran that's currently at the sit in in D.C. until the National Guard will leave.
- [25:49]
A
It's wild to me. And I'm just gonna say I've been to D.C. a lot. You know, I grew up on the East Coast. It is not a dangerous place. It's absurd. Yeah, I think, wow, you're right. I think Poland is a really, really good analogy in this situation. Just, like, based on what I've read in the past, and it is. It's really scary right now. And I think it's overwhelming. And there are definitely days, I'm sure you feel the same way, where it's like, how am I supposed to go on and work and, you know, clean the house and cook food and take out the trash and exist as a human when this is happening right now. And, you know, something that I have learned as I have gotten older is we tend to think that we are the first persons who has ever experienced whatever it is that we're experiencing right now. No one has had this unique set of feelings before. But the fact is, like you said, history has a habit of repeating itself. So what has inspired you from, like, the people who participated in resistance in France or Germany or Poland during World War II?
- [27:12]
B
A lot of what I know about the resistance movements in those countries are things that are a little further along than we are fortunately. But I don't allow myself to think that that's not possibly going to be our reality too. But even then they looked at everything as an opportunity to resist. It wasn't just like these big, like we think of the people who were out sabotaging plants and that were hiding people. But there were little actions happening too that were very important. Like there were underground newspapers so that news could get out that wasn't full of propaganda. A lot of teenagers would put out anti fascism flyers in the middle of the night and just like trying to fight the propaganda that was so prevalent by getting out legitimate information to people. People would meet and have little book clubs and read banned books. People were hiding books that were being burned. That was a huge thing in those countries is people putting books in floorboards and in their walls. And because they were being burned and they didn't, you know, they didn't have Internet, they weren't getting those things necessarily back. And just even writing letters was a big thing at that point, just like we are now. Like you said, history repeats itself. And even more so, history rhymes. It doesn't always look exactly the same, but you can find similarities. And I hope we don't get to the point where we've got to start questioning if we should go do light sabotage. But.
- [29:10]
A
Yeah, no, it's definitely something I think about for sure.
- [29:14]
B
Definitely. Right now the stage of fighting against propaganda is here, you know, making sure that you call out misinformation when you see it, what you're putting out there, make sure it's fact checked and, you know, put out things that are fighting against what we're constantly hearing. Especially as we are falling more and more to state run media. Yeah, it's going to be even more of a problem. We are lucky that, you know, we have the Internet and we can find independent journalists. That's something that was much harder at that point. But we can't take that for granted.
- [29:49]
A
No. And I do think, you know, I'm sure you saw a lot of this early in the year too, where people were like, I'm leaving Instagram, I'm leaving Threads, I'm leaving all these different social media platforms because of their connection to the Trump administration or, you know, whatever the logic may have been at that point. I know there were a lot of different reasons, but, but honestly, so much stuff has happened this year that I can't even remember all of them because there's too many horrific things to memorize every day. But, you know, we need cheat streets. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's so funny because I just released an episode Talking about it started with a story from when Trump was president before, when Melania Trump wore that Zara jacket that said, I don't really care, do you? And it was like, wow, just thinking about all the things that happened that year alone. That was 2018, all the things that have happened since. And yet this year feels more fast paced, more extreme. It's like 20 upsetting things every day, minimally. Right. So anyway, a lot of people were leaving social media, and I definitely, you know, I'm gonna tell you, people reached out to me and were pretty pissed off at me that I was staying on these platforms. And my thought on it was, someone needs to stick around and be the bearer of truth.
- [31:09]
B
Yeah.
- [31:10]
A
And if we all leave, then all anyone hears on these platforms is propaganda and it's harmful. And, you know, I'm going to be honest, I'm sure you feel this way sometimes, too. There are moments where I get a little scared, where, you know, like, my husband and I were driving somewhere and it came up. I was, like, talking about something I posted and these messages I was getting from really scary men. And he was like, you know, one of the things that I accept about our relationship in 20, 20, 25 is that you might end up in a camp soon. And, like, because you speak out against stuff. And you know what? Like, that's something that I am strangely proud of because a lot of people would just be quiet because they're scared. And I was like, wow, I, like, am scared. You know, it's weird to say it out loud, but I. I do get frightened about that kind of stuff, especially because I live in such a red area, like some. I mean, not that I'm like, a very big deal in the world, but they round up everyone eventually, you know? Yeah, it's scary, but I think it's really important for us to be those voices. And hopefully it will not get that bad. One way it doesn't get that bad, hopefully, is if we're all there standing our ground and rallying people and giving them the real truth. Because people who don't believe that the propaganda is out there are just living in a bubble on the Internet. Because every time I leave that bubble, whether it's to look at Fox News or go look at the conservative subreddit or what have you, I am shocked. I am shocked by the different version of reality that is being served there. It's remarkable.
- [32:56]
B
Well, history remembers people who did nothing in Germany as Nazis still.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah.
- [33:02]
B
They're not different just because deep down, they didn't, like, what was happening. If they were silent, they were complicit. And I do have to say that I always wondered, you know, like, what would I do in a Nazi Germany situation? And I had always hoped that I would, you know, speak out and be vocal. And I have to say, sometimes I'm proud that. Yep, that was true. I will be vocal. I won't just shy away and pretend that it's not happening.
- [33:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I think about that all the time, too. I mean, I started thinking about that when I was a child, actually, because there was one summer where I just coincidentally read a lot of books written for children, but, like, chapter books that were about children living in Nazi Germany or, you know, occupied France or in Poland. And I would think a lot, even as. As a kid, like, would I be the person who hid people in my attic? Would I step up and protect people? Would I, you know, engage in sabotage? And would I be a part of a resistance? And I would always get, like, a chill at first about how scary it would be, but then I would realize, like, yeah, I think I would. Even though it's really scary, and I don't like scary movies, I don't like roller coasters. I don't like anything remotely scary. I won't go to one of those haunted houses where they grab you. It's too much for me. But. And I. So I guess I thought it was, like, a real scaredy cab, but when it comes to, like, standing up for what's right, totally different situation.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, I'm very introverted. I'm not one that really likes to argue with people. Although I'm sure people on the Internet don't get that.
- [34:49]
A
That's different, though.
- [34:52]
B
But at the same time, I dislike injustice even more than I want to be comfortable.
- [35:00]
A
Yeah.
- [35:04]
B
I just. I can't be quiet. Every year, for the last several years, my husband and I have decorated our front porch for Pride Month. And each year, we sit down, talk. Are we still willing to take this risk? And every year we're like, yep. And so far, nothing has happened. I keep adding more every year and thinking that at some point somebody's gonna say something. But so far, everything's been good. We do have a camera on the front.
- [35:32]
A
Yeah, that's good.
- [35:33]
B
We both work at home, so we're always here. And I'm sure that somewhat deters people, but, you know, we have more privilege than a lot of people, and we're gonna use that privilege as part of our safety and do the things that others can't. I mean, I know that I have a gay couple on my street because they left me a thank you note one year for having my Pride decorations out. I don't know what house they're in. I wish I did, but they, you know, told me that it made them feel safer. And it's like, well, I definitely have to do this forever now.
- [36:11]
A
You definitely have to do it forever now. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And it is funny because it's just these little things that seem little. Right?
- [36:21]
B
Yeah. It takes me like five minutes to put out a bunch of pride flags.
- [36:24]
A
And it looks cute and it means something. And I think that's so important. I mean, conversely, like, the people who are all triggered about the Cracker Barrel rebrand, I'm like, okay, well, you're the same people who need to understand that, like, yeah, imagery matters, I guess. Like, you know, I don't understand. I'm still confused about that one. Like, guys, it's just an ugly logo. Who cares?
- [36:47]
B
Well, what I really like is that they're telling on themselves that they forgot they were already boycotting Cracker Barrel. Oh. Because in 2016 they said they were because Cracker Barrel did some Pride posts.
- [36:58]
A
Oh, my God.
- [36:59]
B
And then this year they had said they were because Cracker Barrel kept dei. So they're just proving that they cannot boycott and can't stick to their guns at all.
- [37:11]
A
No, they can't. I mean, I. I remember when it was a few years ago, they were all burning Nikes or something. Do you remember that? I still.
- [37:18]
B
Well, they were supposed to be boycotting Target.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Totally. They were boycotting Target. And like, now they're the only customers at Target, I feel.
- [37:30]
B
And Target's doing terribly.
- [37:31]
A
Yeah, I know, I know. You know, it's so funny is someone sent me a message recently. It was sort of like, you should do a post about how boycotts don't work. And I was like, you know, not really going to do that when I see how it's impacting Target. Like, that is what happens when people stick to it for the long game, not just for a few weeks or even a few months at this point. I mean, gosh, it's been like six months now. And it is like a massive group of people doing it. People who may not agree on everything, but are like, I agree that this is wrong. And it's amazing. Like, I still. We have a Target out here on the other side of town. And when I go by there on the weekends, I see cars in the parking lot, but I'LL tell you. Not like, not like before. Like, I used to hate going into that shopping center on a weekend because there was like, it was, you know, it's one of those shopping centers where like every big box store is. And I'd be like, it's gonna be too stressful. It's gonna be. Every parking space is full, people driving like crazy. It's gonna be really stressful. I'm probably gonna almost get in five accidents. It's been like half full and six months into it. It just makes you proud every time I drive by.
- [38:44]
B
Yeah. And I mean these boycotts where people be like, for one day we're not gonna.
- [38:47]
A
Doesn't do anything.
- [38:48]
B
No, that doesn't work. Unless you are completely boycotting the economy. Not going to work. Complete strike. A day or two is not going to do anything.
- [38:59]
A
No. It needs to be sustained.
- [39:02]
B
Yeah. And so when this first started happening, I'm disabled, live in rural Oklahoma. I understand that accessibility is an issue when it comes to boycotts and that, you know, not everybody can just stop shopping at 20 different places all of a sudden. So what I have told my audience and really talked about is that it's less about boycotting and more about voting with your dollars. And you want as many of your dollars as possible to go to the best places possible. And it's not going to be perfect. We've bought a handful of things from Amazon, but our Amazon total for the year is down probably some. Mine personally I don't know exactly what my husband's is, but for me it's probably 99% less than what I bought last year.
- [39:54]
A
Wow. I mean that's amazing. That's significant.
- [39:58]
B
The things that I can't get somewhere else or that we really need quickly. And it's like we either have to buy from Amazon or we have to go to Walmart. It's like you gotta pick lesser evil. And considering I'm very high risk for respiratory viruses and Covid, going into Walmart is more of a personal risk and Walmart has been destroying small towns for decades.
- [40:23]
A
Seriously. Yes, very true story.
- [40:26]
B
You know, there's give or take there, but I'm doing them. I've learned to do a better job of planning ahead and so something takes longer to ship. I've changed so many products that we use and our shift for how our money is spent has been huge. Is it perfect? No. But we can sustain this. If we did it perfectly, it would be very difficult to do it for possibly years. And if everybody was doing that, it would make A huge difference. Even if you did have to occasionally use those places, they would have to change what they were doing or fail because it would hurt their bottom dollar.
- [41:14]
A
It's totally true. I mean, the thing about Target is where Target has really been was, at least at its peak, is Target has not been doing well for a while, basically since the pandemic, because the company wants it integrated like order online, pickup in store or curbside pickup. They were like, basically like, well, we've invested all this money into this. This is the future. We're going to really try to prioritize that as a company and get most of our companies, our customers, ordering online and picking up, which is so weird in itself. But where the company saw that they were starting to lose sales, not to the extent that they have this year, but it's been happening for the last year before this is that people were, yes, 100% ordering online, picking up. That was great. They were no longer strolling around and randomly adding stuff to their car. Which is like the biggest cliche about Target. We've all experienced it. You go there to get cat litter and you end up spending a hundred dollars. Right. That was just like how it would be all the time. I would be like, I don't know, we need laundry detergent. But I'm not ready to go buy like another $100 worth of nonsense. And that's what's going to happen if I go there, you know, and that's the thing, is that, like, we don't need to be perfect. Even if you're like, it is literally the only place I can get these three things where I live or that I have access to or whatever. That's fine. Get those three things. Don't go in there. And also add a T shirt and some sunglasses and some other cute, cute home thing that you saw and other, like, impulse purchases. That's where Target really makes their money. And if you're cutting that out, the business feels it. The business is feeling it big time right now. And I know that they just replaced the CEO kind of. He's still around. I think it's going to be months until we see more change. But I'm going to tell you, if they have a bad holiday season, which I am excited expecting they will next year, they're going to be forced to make some really big decisions.
- [43:14]
B
Yeah, it's looking like all these big box stores, outside of even the boycotts are going to have a bad holiday season because nobody's going to be able to afford the kind of Christmas they used to have with tariffs and the economy, how it is it. It's going to be rough and businesses are preparing for a bad Q4.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah.
- [43:36]
B
And if you add that with being responsible with your purchases, we can do some real damage. Q4 is where you can damage a business.
- [43:48]
A
Oh, really? And I will tell you that, you know, it's sort of like a cliche that Black Friday is like the first day that these businesses go into the black, meaning it's like the first day of the year that they're making profit. And that's not true for all businesses. But I'm going to tell you, I've worked for multiple companies now where that is in fact, the case that the majority of the profit for the entire year happens between Thanksgiving and Christmas in this tiny, tiny period. Otherwise the company loses money. And you know who else loses money? Shareholders. Right. And so, like, that is like, if you can hold to a boycott through that time period, these companies are going to be forced to change or go out of business. I. I think that we are at a real pivotal turning point with a lot of that. And it's funny because I still, and I'm sure you see this too, on threads, or maybe threads just recommends things to me that are going to annoy me. That's probably part of it, too. But I constantly, this week specifically have been seeing posts that are like, are we still boycotting Target because I don't have anywhere else to shop and blah, blah, blah. And I, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, because sometimes I'm like, okay, especially in the early days of this year, I was constantly, like, sharing alternatives and like, you know, the same thing that you were saying, like, you can't be perfect. That's okay. Like, just cutting out the extra stuff is going to have an impact, you know, And I was giving that kind of advice, telling people where they could buy soap and toothpaste, because apparently no one has bought soup, soap and toothpaste in the grocery store in their lives. It was. I was like, guys, there's a whole aisle at the grocery store.
- [45:23]
B
I don't even have a Target in my town. So, yeah, some of these things were blowing my mind.
- [45:27]
A
I know, Me too. I mean, I'd have to drive, like, I don't know, 45 minutes to go to Target. Like, it's just not, you know, I have to be, like, on that side of the county wanting to do things. So I was like, well, I'm not over here not brushing my teeth, everyone. Like, we have toothpaste you know, and soap, or we got the hygiene going on in this house without us going to Target or Walmart. And, you know, I. There are a lot more, like, locally owned businesses where I live. But, but, but still, I was like, you know, we didn't get Target or Walmart where I grew up until I was in middle school. Like, we got that kind of stuff at the grocery store. I don't know. Anyway, so I, I, sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm here to help people. Here are some recommendations. But I also think sometimes people just want an excuse to not have to do the mental effort of changing their ways.
- [46:20]
B
Yeah.
- [46:20]
A
And that frustrates me.
- [46:22]
B
I think a lot of people thought, okay, I'm gonna do this for, like, maybe a month. And they're getting fatigued quickly because they didn't plan ahead to realize this is a lifestyle change.
- [46:35]
A
It is a major lifestyle change.
- [46:37]
B
This is not just like some spur of the moment thing. And we're seeing this a lot with people who are new to activism where they think, oh, I can go to one protest and I've done my job, or I can not buy something for a week, and that's gonna change things. It's like, no, if you really want to be part of a resistance, buckle up. This is the easiest it's gonna be.
- [47:04]
A
Yeah, it's true. There is gonna be a day when you're gonna look back and say, oh, remember when all I had to worry about was not shopping at Target? Mm. It's a reality. Like, in a weird way, we're kind of lucky that we are gradually getting into this. Like, you know, we have this opportunity to make these changes and adjust and get ready for the next change, which. And I say that by saying, like, listen, I think things are terrible right now. I am full of rage and grief every single day. But we all have to, like, do our part, unfortunately, to the best that we can, based on the circumstances of our lives. For some people, it is very easy to never order from Amazon or Target or Walmart, period, ever. For others, it's not. And I'm. I totally understand that, but that doesn't mean that then they get a full pass and they're like, at Target, buying random stuff that they don't need.
- [47:59]
B
Like, I'm not buying fun things from Amazon. When I'm buying something from Amazon, I'm buying something that every option for that product is bad.
- [48:08]
A
Yeah.
- [48:08]
B
That ends up being the least bad. Like.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. And it happens. You know, it happens.
- [48:16]
B
There's been several times where my Husband are like, okay, it's Amazon or Target. I'm like, well, the black community has told us to boycott Target, so I'm prioritizing that right now. And we're going to have to get it from Amazon.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:29]
B
Because I feel like that's another thing right now is those of us with privilege, and we need to remember there are different levels of privilege. Yes, I'm a marginalized person. I'm disabled, and I'm Choctaw, but I present white. I'm middle class. I have privilege. My husband is fully white. You know, we're going to listen to people more marginalized than us during this time and take their lead. And that's definitely been something we've done with one more choosing between two evils. And you have to pick the lesser evil a whole lot in life.
- [49:04]
A
It's. It's so true. I mean, that's like one of those things you learn as you grow up, right? That is just unfortunately the world that we live in right now. But the fact that there's lesser evils doesn't mean that you're like, oh, I just step out of this altogether and, like, you know, ignore it. And I. I mean, it sounds like you also find yourself having conversations with your husband, like, I do, where it's like, okay, we need this thing. Where are we going to get it? Let's walk through the. The evils here and try to identify the lesser evil. Like, it is work it. I mean, that maybe overstates it. It's effort. Let's say that it's effort, right? Like, we got to sit there and think about it. Like, what are we gonna do? Right? Like, sometimes it's like, okay, well, can we buy? Can we thrift it? You know, can we find it on Facebook? Marketplace? But then sometimes it's like we had a problem where we had to replace the belt in our dryer, and literally not one appliance place in town had the one that we needed, and we had to get it from Amazon. It was either we throw out this dryer and get a new dryer, which felt egregious, or we buy this belt, you know, and it was just like, one of those things. But I was like, you know, I'm glad we talked this through. Like, there is some. I can't explain it, but in a. In a world where it feels like right now you feel so powerless that you are just like, in. Like, you're like, I didn't vote for this. I'm not okay with this. And yet the repercussions of this are affecting me and everyone. Everyone I know and don't know. It feels so profoundly unfair. There is this, like, sense of power and control that you get when you take the time to make those decisions and think them through. Like, you really feel like, okay, I am controlling some aspect of my life, even if it is as simple as what we're gonna do about this dryer.
- [50:52]
B
Yeah.
- [50:53]
A
And it feels good. And so when people are on threads or whatever and are like, I don't know, like, I just, you know, I can't. Where am I gonna get this one kind of soap that I like? I'm giving up the boycott altogether. I'm like that, actually. I feel like you're going to feel sadder than if you just bought the soap from where you need it and didn't buy anything else from them. I don't know.
- [51:18]
B
Seeing a lot of overlap with what's happening now and what we saw in the early days of the pandemic. People don't do well with being uncomfortable.
- [51:31]
A
It's a true story.
- [51:33]
B
They are not resilient. I was repeatedly disappointed early in the pandemic. You know, we started out with this. We're all in it together, and it was quickly like, no, no, we are not. A few of us are doing all the work and the rest of y' all are still living your normal life.
- [51:49]
A
I know.
- [51:50]
B
Pretending that nothing is happening. And we're seeing that a lot now. And there's been a lot of look into the psych. Like, the psych side of this and why some people are unable to basically bury their heads in sand and they have to address what's happening. And others are able to just pretend things aren't happening around them. And we're seeing that again, that there's this pretty large group of the population that's just able to pretend nothing's happening.
- [52:22]
A
I don't understand. I see it happening, too, but it's just like a way of life that I can't comprehend.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah, I can't either. Like, I'm not able to turn off that part of my brain with me at all times. And let's be honest, most of the ones that are able to are white and probably middle class. And they're not marginalized people, because marginalized people have been living a lot of what we're now living for forever. Like, we're starting to feel the uncomfort that they always have.
- [52:58]
A
Yeah, 100% true.
- [53:01]
B
That's definitely something that needs to be addressed. That this has not been a fair country for a lot of people ever. And it's just now starting to creep into the white part of the population.
- [53:14]
A
And.
- [53:17]
B
It'S just mind blowing to me that we have breaking news every five minutes and there are people are like everything's great.
- [53:27]
A
I don't understand. It's like it's, it is. It's a specific mindset that is just like incomprehensible to me. Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite style styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. 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Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing Patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's SlowFashion Academy Selena Sanders, a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style, Minimal carbon footprint, Republica Unicornia yarns, handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for rainbows with a spring side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced, hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicauunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. cute little ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram. Ute Littleruin Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? So sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com. You know, I dated this horrible man in my early 20s. Like really one of the worst people I've dated. Like, he is in the hall of fame of people who hate women and other problems. Like, I'm just like this guy's terrible. I could tell you stories all day about this guy. He was really, really bad. He was abusive and he just like he was to me a stereotype of. I didn't know at the time, but I recognized in a bigger way around 2016 of men that I had kind of grown up with who were maybe a few years older than me, were more like Gen X. You know, on the young end of Gen X who were seemed in the 2000s to be cool and like liberal and progressive and would be like I'm a feminist or whatever. But deep down were actually like not at all. And became more and more conservative with time. And who I would guess this guy who I obviously am not in contact with at all. I would guess that in 2016 he was really hardcore For Bernie. And I bet in the last election he considered voting for Trump or did. It's a pattern of type of person that I have seen a lot over the past decade, especially this transition. I encountered some other guy on Facebook recently, and I was like, yeah, that guy. Yeah, he voted for Trump, too. But he was hardcore Bernie in 2016. And I always felt he kind of hated women, too. Anyway, he said something to me way back then that I think is sort of a cliche that people say sometimes. That has stuck with me because I always waited for this to happen. He said, oh, well, everybody's liberal when they're young, but as they get older, they get more conservative and they care more about fiscal responsibility and less about social issues. And I am going to tell you, Lisa, every year I'm like, is this going to be the year that happens to me? And actually what has happened is I feel like every year I get more radical than the year before. But I wonder if these people who shut it off, is that a real thing? Do people really get more conservative now?
- [60:11]
B
It seems to happen more with men than women. Although we are seeing women end up in that same red pill content.
- [60:19]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's worse than ever right now, for sure. Right? Because, like, I think I always joke, like, with my husband that, like, the Internet, you know, is what let people who have really bad ideas meet other people with the same bad ideas and then think that they're like the main characters. So all the worst people have found one another on the Internet, you know. But it's something that I think about all the time. Like, I. Even though it's so funny because I can look back and be like, 90% of what that guy ever said to me was horrible nonsense and he's sucked as a person. But I'm like, do you. Am I gonna. When's this gonna happen? That I become less concerned about the world around me and it. It just hasn't happened. And I think that that makes me.
- [61:02]
B
Think that they're fake to begin with. Probably more my peers are doing this. I want to be cool. And then as you get older, there's less of that click behavior and so the real them comes out.
- [61:19]
A
Yeah, I think that's so true. Yeah. I mean, I definitely found myself at that time in my life surrounded with a lot of people who actually came from, like, you know, they were white, came from a pretty privileged background, especially the men who would, like, sort of cosplay as being, like, poor artists. And those are the people who are now, like, definitely either ignoring what's happening in the world or voted for Trump and are now maybe embarrassed about it, but maybe not, I don't know. But I think there are many of us. Like, something I think about all the time is, even though it might feel otherwise, there are more good people in this world than bad people. And I think that good can win out if we really stick to who we are and stay true and stand up for one another. And I also think that there are all kinds of things we can do on a regular basis, like not buying random stuff from Target, for, for example, that seem small but are actually very significant when we're all doing them. What are like small things you do on a regular basis to resist what's happening in this world?
- [62:29]
B
Well, you know, outside of purchases, which we talked about, just almost in everything I do, I think about if it would, what the option would be that benefits the most people. And like, even how I spend my time, I write a lot of letters to my very red representatives. Even though I know they're probably not reading them, even I know I can.
- [62:57]
A
Tell that they're not reading them.
- [62:59]
B
I frequently have said, you know, I'm at least going to annoy them.
- [63:03]
A
Yeah, I mean, there's something to that, though.
- [63:06]
B
And, you know, they're not going to be able to pretend that everybody agrees with them. They're gonna know that at least this one woman in Ada, Oklahoma, is constantly sending them mail and emails and phone calls. And I'm sure that some people already know my name, but if I don't get to feel peace, they don't get to feel peace.
- [63:33]
A
I love that. And I honestly, even just annoying them, it is something because the human body can only handle so much annoyance.
- [63:42]
B
Yeah.
- [63:43]
A
You know, so keep annoying them.
- [63:46]
B
Well, and just like in my business, I've made so many shifts to try and help people resist and to show people that resistance doesn't have to be these grand gestures. It's not just about going out and protesting that you can do things in your everyday life, especially as homemakers, those purchases that you're mostly in charge of, those matter taking care of your family. If we look at the propaganda that the US used during the war, it was targeted at women, telling them to keep their families healthy and to find ways to use as little of the things that were needed for the war effort as possible. Learning to repair things mend help with the jobs that the men were no longer doing. There was this big push in that women were powerful and could win the war. And we've lost Sight of the fact that homemakers and women and people who aren't at the forefront of movements can still be a huge support and make a difference. The Montgomery bus boycotts, one of the groups that had a huge impact was the women that made meals for the people that were boycotting and that weren't able to necessarily buy food. Like, they would just show up every day with food, and you don't. That's not flashy. That's not what you see when you look at the history. But that was a huge support system, and those are the kinds of things we still need to be doing. Yeah, not all of us are going to be able to go to every protest, but maybe you can watch somebody else's kids so they can, you know, you can make somebody food that's protesting. Or if people start striking, you can help people that don't have what they need. Mutual aid is going to be extremely important. And we all have something we can offer. And it drives me crazy when we try and have everybody do the same thing. In a movement that's not productive. We should each be doing what we're best at.
- [66:10]
A
Exactly. And it excludes people. Because if you can't go to a protest, which there are 100 reasons why someone couldn't go to a protest, and honestly, they're none of our business, that's okay. They have so many other valuable things they can offer to the resistance that have nothing to do with going to that protest. That could be, like you said, supporting people who are going or writing letters or collecting donations or opening a free fridge or any number of other things. And I think we tend to. I play movies like Star wars for this. We tend to think that, like, it's that main character syndrome, right, where each of us are like, the whole future of the universe depends on us. It was destiny. And so we are going to be the single person who changes everything. We have to be doing the loudest, biggest thing. We have to be in charge of it all. And the reality is that effective resistance has people who are washing dishes, providing childcare, cooking meals, collecting trash, you know, tracking stuff in spreadsheets. Like, there's all kinds of stuff that needs to happen. And we all have something special that we offer that can be a really important part of that. It's not as simple as, like, oh, you just have to go to a protest. Also, like, listen, I think protests are really valuable, but I think that sometimes they make people think that if you showed up at the protest, then you can check it off the list. You did your duty for the month or the year, and it's actually way more complicated. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. Actually, it's like going back to the idea of, like, boycotts, for example. They only work if they're sustained. Right. And so it's like you kind of got to be a part of this every day. And sometimes it is, like, a bigger thing where you're going to a protest, and sometimes it's that you are, you know, helping someone out in your community, like, in a really basic way by, like, dropping off dinner. Sometimes you don't have to leave your house to be a part of it. Or maybe you don't have to leave your house at all to be a part of it. Actually, now that I think about it, because there are so many things you could do at home that will be very, very helpful. And I do. I do feel like, as we were talking about earlier, you're kind of just. I don't know, we need to get in the habit of being a part of these things because the reason all of this is happening right now is because we were so disconnected from one another for so long.
- [68:42]
B
Yeah. I fear that it will be a long time before we get to see the positive effects. But if we are able to beat this, the US could be a much better place than it ever was.
- [68:56]
A
Agreed? Agreed. Because I think, and this is me, like, listen, many days I am wallowing in despair and rage. Okay. But when I try to, like, be optimistic, and I would say this is really, like, almost even pragmatic, looking back at history, we can learn from this experience that we can't not be involved in the world around us, that we can't ever shut off our compassion for others. We have to be a part of it every day.
- [69:30]
B
While it's hard for those of us living here, we can also look at this in other countries that we're starting to shift to the right have seen us as an example, and there's been more pushback.
- [69:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I hate being the cautionary tale, but there you are. We are.
- [69:49]
B
That's the one thing about everybody being so much more connected in the Internet, and so many people are able to watch what's happening here at a level that you couldn't have in World War II. It's true. It's whatever you were fed to by the media.
- [70:03]
A
Yeah.
- [70:05]
B
I think it's helping people see, oh, we don't want that to happen here. We need to start now in squashing those movements that we're laughing at and thinking nothing's Going to happen. MAGA is largely the Tea Party.
- [70:20]
A
Yeah.
- [70:21]
B
And we laughed at them and thought, nothing's going to happen. I mean, personally, I did not, because I knew what was happening from experience. And, like, I've known what the Heritage foundation was since I was a child. So I saw more Project 2025 happening in, like, the 90s. But in general, people are like, oh, it's just a few crazy people.
- [70:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. I think that that is what people thought.
- [70:52]
B
And few crazy people can quickly become a lot of crazy people.
- [70:58]
A
Yeah, it is true. I laugh only because I kid.
- [71:05]
B
So sad.
- [71:06]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, like, speaking of, you know how you can't cry every day? I. I mean, not that I haven't been crying a lot more this year than ever. What gives you hope? Because I feel like when you lose hope, you lose the energy to resist. You know, it's just like, whatever, Right? What gives you hope right now? Like, do you see hope anywhere around you?
- [71:32]
B
Well, it's harder some days than others, but part of my hope is Germany was further down the road than we are, and we came back in our much more progressive country. And like, that seems like so long ago, but it's. In the grand scheme of things, it's not.
- [71:51]
A
No.
- [71:52]
B
So it's not hopeless. Like, we. They beat it. We can beat it. Let's hope we beat it a lot sooner. Let's hope we take some notes from what happened before and we don't let it get as bad. Also, like seeing some of the younger people that are getting more active politically than they maybe would have otherwise because of this, that makes, you know, me hopeful. I have a niece who is about to be in school, and my sister's going to homeschool her because the Oklahoma education system is crazy. And, you know, we're all going to help in that effort, all of the family. And so she will definitely have a diverse education because we all have different abilities. And I'm hopeful that generation is also going to be being taught and learn these lessons that I wish they didn't have to learn, but that will make that generation make this a much better place. And there are moments where you can see winds like last night in Iowa, which is not a very blue area. They took a seat in the state senate and it. They no longer have a super majority there. And, you know, we're starting to see these little wins, and it's easy to just look at these catastrophes that are happening and ignore those little things, but we need to see those and Build on them and, you know, Norman, Oklahoma, taking back their city council, that was a big win and shows that we can do this if we try. Yeah, but we can't just get complacent or give up.
- [74:02]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that you're right. Like, this could be a turning point towards a better country and a better world as a whole. But that only happens if we stay involved.
- [74:18]
B
And we need to realize getting Trump out of office is not the end.
- [74:22]
A
No, it's. I think that people really. Well, I mean, this is like an egregious situation. Like, I can't believe he ran again. I still. My brain sometimes is like, how is this real? Even though, you know, obviously it is. But I think a lot of people thought, like, okay, well, he's gone now. Everything's going to be fine, and we can go back to whatever we were doing before. I mean, it's the same thing with the pandemic. Like, the pandemic has not ended, my friends, but people. I mean, I couldn't believe how fast people went back to normal in 2021. It was like whiplash for me. We have a tendency to collectively forget.
- [75:05]
B
Well, we could have learned a lot from the pandemic and made the world better from that experience.
- [75:09]
A
I know back then I believed that we could. I still believe that we can. We can learn from things, but, like, come on, guys, we have to stop just, like, forgetting, you know, because for me, like, the pandemic was a huge turning point in my life, too, where I was like, okay, I'm never gonna be quiet about things ever again. And my life has not been the same since 2020, for sure, in any way at all. But so many people were so hungry to go back to exactly what it was like before. And I think that does seem. Speak to a level of privilege that those people have.
- [75:42]
B
Yeah, well, Germany, after Hitler fell, they didn't just go, okay, yay, everything's good. There was a very big effort, and there is to this day, to stop everything that had to do with fascism. Like, their education is very focused on making sure that the kids learn the accurate history what happened so that they don't let it happen again. There are very strict rules about hate speech and symbolism, and some of it I don't agree with because, you know, I'm an American. I like free speech.
- [76:17]
A
Right, Right.
- [76:19]
B
But we are going to have to address that. They're not. The fascists aren't going to leave the country. They're going to still be here, and they can take back over at any time if we don't constantly make an effort to squash it.
- [76:34]
A
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that we tend to hear in the United States think that, like, elections fix things and that's that. I'm sorry, but January 6th happened and then we thought that those people were done. No, it only made them double down because, I mean, I have. I could talk about this for like six hours, but the. This country did not do enough work to hold those people accountable, honestly.
- [77:02]
B
Well, now with them being pardoned, it's.
- [77:04]
A
It was a moot point. Yeah, Yeah, I know. Like, just storm the Capitol all the time if you want. Right. Well, not now because the National Guard's there. But yeah, I think. I think what gives me hope is that I see people being forced out of complacency and I just want them to stick to it. Please, everyone, stay woke, if you will.
- [77:30]
B
That's part of why I keep telling people, stop looking for perfection right now. Look for what you can sustain.
- [77:37]
A
Yeah.
- [77:37]
B
It's the same thing. And when we talk about sustainability, if you try and do everything at once because you're like, oh, I just realized I need to be doing this. You're gonna burn out.
- [77:49]
A
Yeah.
- [77:50]
B
And you're just gonna be like, I can't do it all, so I'm not gonna do any of it. You have to find what you can do, stick with it, try and build on it if you can, because once things become habits a little easier to add more on. But you can't think of this as being a short term thing. With the pandemic, people thought, two weeks, and I can do that. I'm done. I went into it knowing there was no way it was gonna be just two weeks. It was much longer than I thought it was gonna be.
- [78:21]
A
Yeah.
- [78:22]
B
But I was prepared for a longer haul than most people.
- [78:25]
A
Yeah.
- [78:26]
B
And, you know, you've just gotta lean on communities and build communities. That's something that has lacked in this country for a long time, and that's what's gotten people through hard times in the past. People in the Great Depression weren't staying on their own little islands, not helping each other. People During World War II, you were helping your neighbors. When every. All the men went off to war, the women were joining together to do things. They weren't all just working on their own. And.
- [78:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, what needs to happen gradually here is we need to really kind of reboot how we interact with one another. I don't think that it's not going to be Like a flip a switch. Now we go out and know our neighbors, but I think I like to look at, like, everything I do every day, no matter how small, is like a little. It's sort of like putting a penny in your savings account every day. Okay, maybe not a penny, let's say a dollar, because a penny doesn't add up for a very long time. But if you put a dollar in your savings account every day, years in, you're going to have a chunk of money in there. And that's kind of how these, like, small things add up. And it's better than having to, like, one day just totally change your life in every way. That's why people don't stick to New Year's resolutions. It has to be like, today I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna get used to doing this for a few weeks, and then I'm gonna add another thing onto that. And before you know it, you look back a year later and, wow, like, your life has changed in a good way. And you're making this impact that is really positive. And it never starts. That change never starts. If you never. If you never start.
- [80:11]
B
Yeah, yeah. I'm not thinking of any of the changes that I'm making as temporary.
- [80:16]
A
Exactly. To me, it's like a way of life. Right.
- [80:18]
B
They're here. If in the future, some of these things aren't needed and things can be a little easier, cool. But for now, as far as I'm aware, this is how life is now.
- [80:29]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay. That's okay. That's a good thing.
- [80:33]
B
And in some ways, that makes it a lot easier. I think that helped with the pandemic is I wasn't just constantly thinking about, oh, I just have to get through this little bit of time. I was thinking, this is for a long time. I need to find what works and what I can stick with.
- [80:50]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of things I picked up in the pandemic that in the early days of the pandemic, I'll say that I still are still part of my life. Like, for example, we, like, never eat in restaurants really anymore, because now I just cook all the time, and I enjoy it, and it saves us money and reduces packaging and reduces food waste and all of these things. And that was a lifestyle change that, of course, got thrust on me immediately, overnight, but has stayed with us. And it's changed the way we eat, the way we grocery shop, the way we store food, you know, all kinds of aspects of our life that Actually, like, have a good impact on the planet. And I think the people who immediately were like, okay, well, now I'm gonna go back to eating all three of my meals every day out. I'm like, what? What? You didn't learn anything? Come on. So, yeah, so I think, like, we gotta stick with these things because they are part of our lives. That's the best. That's the best way forward. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Retro Homemakers Club? Cause I want people to come and check it out. Like, what kind of stuff do you share there?
- [82:02]
B
Yeah, that started pretty early in the pandemic is kind of like everybody's home, and we need connection in that place of building community. And homemaking can be isolating, especially these days. And a lot of times, if you can find a community, it's religious or tradwives, and that's not fitting for everyone. And they're not inclusive spaces. And so I wanted someplace that was inclusive, still had that sense of community. It's kind of modeled after in, like, the 40s and 50s, where women had these little, like, homemaking circles where they got together and did projects and talked about whatever was going on and probably gossiped. And that does happen some in there, too.
- [82:49]
A
It's unavoidable. When you get enough humans together, gossip will happen.
- [82:54]
B
But we have a zoom call once a month, and sometimes we chat about things that are very related to homemaking. Sometimes it's just talking about our lives and having somebody else, another human to chat with. And I also put new products, like digital printable products that people can use in their home every month that are hopefully going to help things be a little easier. And we have, like, planning printables in there that we can use to try and keep track of everything. That's crazy. Right now, there's a private Facebook group where people can ask questions. If you don't know how to clean a stain, people can post that. Or if you just need to vent for the day because it's been a crazy day. You burn dinner and you're losing your mind. It's just a safer place than, you know, social media as a whole. And someplace where even if you aren't able to build a community that's physical, you can still have that sense of community in some way and feel welcomed and accepted.
- [84:15]
A
I mean, I think that, like, the work that you're doing is very important. It's something I'm actually working on a live episode that will be about this in October. You know, something that I think a lot of people have lost sight of is that many Americans, especially millennials and Gen Z, do not know how to do laundry, clean, cook, grocery shop, repair, clothing, sew. And that is because, you know, Home EC was removed from the schools gradually. For the most part at least, it wasn't a mandatory part of the curriculum anymore. And if you weren't learning those things from the adults in your life at home, you don't know them.
- [85:02]
B
And I have Pandemic showed us that a lot of people in all basic cooking.
- [85:07]
A
Oh, seriously. I mean, I, I was not shocked by that one because, you know, working in fashion my whole career, most of the people who worked with me ate all of their meals out every day because they did not know how to cook at all. And I remember the first few months being nervous for them. I was making little videos on Instagram, just showing people how to make the easy things at home because I was like, people must be really hungry right now. Like, they must be so scared and hungry because I. I take cooking skills for granted, but I have those because I learned when I was a kid. But a lot of people did not have that benefit. And I think it can feel. I mean, my thought on this, that actually having a more environmentally sustainable way of life is really contingent upon you being able to cook your own food, being able to, you know, store food. Right. And mitigate food waste, learning how to do laundry properly, how to maintain the things in your home, like, these are all part of a more sustainable lifestyle. But if you don't know how to do any of this, it's really difficult to know where to begin. And if you end up looking for that content online, it's out there. You might find yourself in the tradwife pipeline pretty fast. Right.
- [86:32]
B
There's a reason that most of my videos have trad wife hashtags. I'm trying to divert people off of that. And it doesn't mean I get a lot of hate sometimes. Yes. But I also hope that I'm finding some of those people that are at that crossroads where it's like they can either go my direction and learn these things and not get the propaganda, or they can go straight into the red pill content and they're going to be radicalized.
- [87:03]
A
I mean, I'll tell you, I have been following a lot of Homestead content for a long time, like creators in that space since at least 2015. I knew then that my fantasy that was that my husband and I would live on a farm. Like, I knew that even before I'd married my Husband. I was like, someday we're going to live on a farm or we're going to live in a city but have chickens or something, right? And there were a lot of people who had been following for a long time who were like, creating that sort of homestead content that I loved and was inspiring to me, who took a. Who took a pretty severe turn in 2020, where I felt like I was like unfollowing a lot of people every day because suddenly they were like, Covid's a scam, Vaccines don't work. You know, other wild stuff. People were being really transphobic and just. I was like, where did this come from?
- [88:01]
B
I watched this happen a lot, like in the crunchy community, because I started blogging forever ago. That was the community I was mostly in. And I've seen the people in the early days of blogging that I was with. There are two groups. There are the ones that have gone more to the left and are, you know, science minded. And there are those that just followed all the misinformation and have become anti vaxxers and are believing all the crazy conspiracies and posting things about clouds not being real and all that kind of stuff. And I, I do understand because that is a. That's the pipeline that I could have easily.
- [88:51]
A
Yeah.
- [88:52]
B
Fallen into because I think we were still at an early enough date on the Internet that people were posting these things that sounded really real, like, this food is super harmful and you should never eat it and all this stuff and everything needs to be non GMO and organic. And I definitely started to fall into a lot of that because especially as somebody who's chronically ill and constantly searching for ways to feel better when Western medicine doesn't work, it's easy to be like, well, maybe some of these things will work. And you know, now kind of. For me, the pandemic was a time where I'm like, I've got to do a better job of making sure the science is sound in the things that I believe instead of the other direction of, well, I'm just going to believe all this crazy stuff. And it's like, oh, a lot of these things that for a long time I thought were correct. It's like, that was a very small study and it's since been debunked. And, you know, that's not necessarily true anymore. You know, msg, that was a racist fear campaign. That's not. MSG is safe and food coloring. Yeah, there are some that probably are questionable. And from an environmental standpoint, I don't love them because most of them are coal byproducts, but they're not going to kill you. Like, do I occasionally have something with dyes? Yeah. Do I think it's fine that we're gonna remove them? Yeah. Do I think it's gonna make America healthy? No.
- [90:34]
A
No. I mean, how about if we had like, you know, accessible healthcare?
- [90:39]
B
Accessible, high quality healthcare, ended food deserts, or maybe produce didn't go up 38% while we're making America healthy again.
- [90:48]
A
Oh, I know, I know. I. I'll tell you, one of the places where I do come closest to crying these days is actually the grocery store. Yeah, it is for some reason, like where things come to a head for me emotionally. And I often leave, like, like just, I don't know, almost inconsolable. Like I. A couple months ago, I really almost had a nervous breakdown in the grocery store. Over the price of butter. Yeah, I mean, it was bad.
- [91:16]
B
My husband and I, we can afford these increases. We have that privilege. We'll be okay. Not to say that we aren't making changes because it, we're not like independently wealthy. And it's getting to the point where it's a lot for anybody.
- [91:32]
A
Yeah.
- [91:33]
B
But what really bothers me is thinking about the people that were struggling before. I know, how are they going to make it now?
- [91:40]
A
I mean, I think about this all the time because in the aughts, you know, after I had my daughter, you know, my partner had died right before she was born and like we, I mean we struggled for years. Like I couldn't even afford to take the bus. I had to take Dylan everywhere on my bicycle because we couldn't afford public transportation. Like things were really hard, but I could keep it together. But it was like one slight change. We would have been unhoused. Like it would have been that fast. And I think about how many people that is their life right now. I live in constant fear of that happening to me again because it was a very difficult and scary time. I have recurring nightmares about having $0 in my bank account. Like, this is like a regular thing for me. But you know, as long as I keep working right now I'm like, okay. And I think about how, what if that time in my life was happening right now? What would happen to us? Like, what would happen to me and my and my daughter? Like, we couldn't have handled the increase in the price of groceries. I mean, we were already living on like 25 cent bagels and quesadillas basically because like I had no money. What Would we have done. What would we have done if there were mass layoffs because of these tariffs? What? I just, you know, what would we have done if the social safety net was gutted even more?
- [93:21]
B
They weren't good to begin with.
- [93:23]
A
No, no, they were not good. When people talk about that or, like, think that people are living, like, living at large on public assistance, I'm like, let me tell you some stories, okay. We were not right. I started making $9 an hour, and I didn't have daycare assistance anymore, which meant that now my daycare was going to be $10 an hour. Well, what I'm. Who's. Who am I. Where am I getting that extra dollar from and how it's supposed to live? You know, like, these systems are not good. Okay. To get $9 a month in food assistance doesn't really do much for you when you're making minimum wage. And I. I think that people. The people who rail against the social safety net the most clearly have, like, no idea how it really works.
- [94:08]
B
Yeah.
- [94:09]
A
Yeah. Well.
- [94:09]
B
And don't want to address that. SNAP wasn't created to help people. It was created to help farmers.
- [94:15]
A
Yeah.
- [94:16]
B
And so not only is this hurting people that need the food, it's hurting our farms, which. Let's talk about who most of them voted for and why. Sometimes we're seeing some of those Trump flags suddenly disappear because they are learning. Oh, that benefited me out where I.
- [94:37]
A
Live, they are going down fast. And I live in the kind of zone where not only were there a lot of Trump flags on houses and on trucks, there are also a lot of homemade signs everywhere. They're gone. It is rare to see a Trump flag out here now. I mean, they're there. Right. I see them here and there, but the. They were. Those signs and flags were just holding strong and multiplying from. From 2020 to 2024. Like, there were just more and more of them consistently during that time period. Now they're going away. Like, that's the thing, I think that gives me hope is that maybe people are slowly coming to their senses a little bit, at least.
- [95:17]
B
Well, this administration is not helpful to a lot of the people that voted for him. I know at some point it's gonna hurt a lot of them. I mean, the people that were voting for Trump were mostly voting against themselves. Like, it's like, he hates poor people. Why are you voting for him?
- [95:39]
A
I know, I know. I mean, what would you. Because I have not had a conversation like this with anyone. But what would you say to someone right now, who voted for Trump?
- [95:50]
B
Honestly, right now, I'm not sure I could talk to somebody.
- [95:53]
A
I know, I know. I mean, this is one of those things I think about all the time, too. Like, how would I. Why do I have to.
- [96:00]
B
Somebody who genuinely seemed to be waking up and seem to be at a point where words could make any difference, because if you're in a cult and.
- [96:12]
A
They are, they are.
- [96:13]
B
There's nothing you or I can say to them to stop. Like, they're gonna have to have their own come to Jesus moment.
- [96:21]
A
And.
- [96:23]
B
So for those people, it's not worth my time. Do I always remember that, not argue with them? No. But for those that you can. And you can tell when somebody is legitimately being like, oh, I'm realizing this was not good.
- [96:39]
A
Mm.
- [96:41]
B
If somebody was at that point, it would somewhat depend on the person and my relationship with them. But just talking to them about what made them vote for Trump, what was the thing that they thought he was going to bring to them.
- [96:59]
A
I know. I wonder.
- [97:00]
B
And most of the time, you're gonna find that it was a lie. And the Democrats are by no means perfect. And I do not consider myself a Democrat as such. At this point, I would classify myself as leftist or at least progressive. But they do care more about social safety nets and things than the right. It is the better of the two options.
- [97:28]
A
I mean, seriously, both parties are not the same. Everyone.
- [97:31]
B
Yeah, there is definitely a difference.
- [97:34]
A
Every time I hear that, I'm like, oh, were you, like a child when George W. Bush was president or just, like, not born? Because let me tell you, like, those were some really. I mean, not, like. Not like right now, but those were not good times. I talk about this all the time with my friends. I'm like, remember we went to war, Multiple wars that were just, like, based on oil and greed, you know, like, trust me, as a single mother, during that time period, the whole administration was out to destroy me. You know, like, it was a really bad time.
- [98:06]
B
Someone who was blocked by their local Democrat party on their Facebook group.
- [98:13]
A
Congratulations.
- [98:16]
B
I can still say, even though I did clearly get into some arguments with some people in there, the tone of voice and how people truly feel about other people is night and day in the two parties. Having been politically active in both parties, the language and how people are included and everything about it is completely different. There is no similarity. Do I agree that the Democrat Party is far enough left? Not even close. They. On a global scale, they lean right.
- [98:54]
A
Yes.
- [98:56]
B
But it's what we have.
- [98:58]
A
Yes.
- [98:59]
B
And this is a Bus stop to another bus stop, hopefully to another bus stop. And you can't just skip the in between steps. We're gonna have to push them to the left.
- [99:10]
A
Yeah.
- [99:10]
B
And totally I don't understand the idea of, well, I'm just gonna sit out until it's what I want it to be. That that's not gonna do anything. You've got to work with what you've got. And what we've got right now is a two party system.
- [99:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it, that's, you know what like that was the thing that people were sort of coming at me with during the last election as we got down to the wire and I was like, it would be like, well, these are our only options. It's not fair. It's the two party system. I'm like, I agree. Guess what, if you want a different option in four years, you gotta start working on it like today. And once again, I don't see that happening.
- [99:50]
B
And I get frustrated like with Democrats right now that are already telling us we have to give in and just pick another mediocre white man.
- [99:59]
A
I know, I hate it. Don't get me started.
- [100:00]
B
But at the time right now where we push for better, but if we get to the primaries and the person is picked, I don't see any way that they're not better than tribe. I would vote for somebody's cat over.
- [100:16]
A
I would same. And I don't care if that cat is a jerk or doesn't use the litter box well or scratches the furniture or can't read because they will still be better at this point. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think we got a lot of work to do together to get people to just get together basically. Like that is what needs to happen. And I always am saying to anyone who listen, I'm like, the thing about MAGA is like. And just like the Republican party as a whole is that they can be like, hey, I see that you might be like, I don't know, not as racist as me, but we both agree that gay marriage is wrong or whatever. So like let's just stick together. Or we both hate abortion. Let's just stick together. And on the left we're like, but you know, there was that one time that you know, XYZ and I'm like, okay, like we got, we got to knock it off. We have to get it together.
- [101:16]
B
You'll see that in behind closed doors in the Republican Party they fight about who they're going to put forward in their platform and everything, but they come back together. At the end, and they rally around whatever they chose. And that is something I don't see as much in the Democrat Party is they just keep fighting. There's no coming together at the end. And there was literally a fist fight in the parking lot of a state Oklahoma Republican convention the year that I left, when there was a big fight. This was right before the Tea Party started and Ron Paul was running. And that was the catalyst for a lot of us becoming liberal. You either became the Tea Partier or you left the party if you were a Ron Paul supporter. I don't know anybody that. It's different. Everybody went polar opposites. And that was. There was a fist fight between the Ron Paul Republicans and the old guard in the parking lot. Cops called, like. I mean, it was a big deal, but do you think that that mattered once the primaries were over? No. They all rallied around their candidate and put that to the side until the next convention.
- [102:49]
A
I always look at voting as, like, harm reduction and, you know, baby steps towards progress. Lisa, it was really great to talk to you today. Hopefully we don't get canceled from this conversation, but, you know, I'm glad. I'm glad to just talk to someone else who spends a lot of time thinking about these things, but also is invested in helping people have better lives. So thank you for the work that you do. Is there anything else you'd like to add as we wrap up here?
- [103:22]
B
My main thing I want people to take away is things can get really bad really fast. Start building a community now. Have a plan for what you're going to do if things get worse. We all need to be boy Scouts right now, and we need to be planning for the worst and hoping for the best and, you know, don't get complacent again if things start to look a little bit better. It's. The fight's not over. It's not going to be over in our lifetime.
- [103:54]
A
I don't think so either. This is like a new way of life for all of us. So let's. Let's do it.
- [103:59]
B
I'm currently hoping to make the world better for my niece. That's my goal.
- [104:04]
A
That's great. That's a good goal. Yeah.
- [104:06]
B
I don't think it's gonna be completely fixed for my lifetime, so hopefully it is for the next generation.
- [104:12]
A
Yeah. We can't give up. We can't give up. Thank you so much to Lisa for spending some time with me. Me, I definitely want her back again because we have so much more to talk about. We talked for so Many hours. When we recorded, I had a really difficult time editing down the conversation to a reasonable length. So, yeah, Lisa, you have to come back again. In the meantime, you can find her just about everywhere on the Internet, as at Retro Housewife Goes Green. And I'll share her social links and website in the show notes. You know, I have a lot of complex feelings about social media, as I'm sure you do, too. But I am very grateful that Threads, yes, Threads, introduced me to Lisa. And I think of Threads as the place where people go to be their worst selves. But I've actually met some pretty cool people on there, too. I wanted to start the year with this conversation with Lisa, because things feel worse than ever right now. The days are filled with fear, rage, grief, and so much frustration. I'll just tell you that as a person who grew up in a very volatile home, I kind of, like, need rules in order to feel okay as an adult. And right now, everything is operating in defiance of social rules and common decency and, you know, the law. So, yeah, it feels overwhelming for me, too. And I. I don't want you to feel alone in this. Right. Know that if you're feeling any way similar to what I just described, know that there are, like, an uncountable number of people out here who feel the same way and, like, just kind of want to reach out and hold your hand through this. And I don't know, I would say, like, when it gets really bad, kind of imagine that we are all holding hands through this, because mentally, I'm holding your hand right now, and I wish your hand weren't so sweaty. But it's okay. We'll get through this. Mine's probably weird and dry and gross and smells like cat food. It's fine holding hands. We're here. We're going to take care of one another. If you listened to the Japan episodes, you know, I spent a lot of time on that trip thinking about technology and a shift toward more analog media in this year. And one thing that kept coming back to me was like, how do we all stay in touch without social media? How do we care for one another with. When we live far away, how do I help all of you feel seen, heard, and supported? Because despite all of social media's AI slop and unfair algorithms and asshole trolls, it's also a billion little threads that connect and hold us together. And while I don't plan on quitting social media anytime soon, because I'll tell you, I need that connection, too, I have been thinking more and More about sort of like three dimensional contact. Contact outside the screen. Of course, I want to have more IRL meetups this year, and I'm still thinking about how I can do that. So trust me, we're gonna figure it out. But as I traipsed around Japan thinking and thinking, thinking about all of this, I had a light bulb moment. Mail. Which, by the way, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this to you before, but, like, I have had a lifetime love of mail. And when I was growing up, I had pen pals all around the world. I would walk to the post office to pick up our mail every day because it was like a highlight for me. Plus, when you're a kid, I don't know, you have so much free time. I'm jealous. I'm jealous of young me having so much free time. But I always loved mail. And of course, soon that transitioned into packages from ebay, and then soon it transitioned into, like, packages from Zara, and then along the way, just lots of garbage. Junk mail. Seriously. So we get so much junk mail at our house every day, no matter how many lists I sign up for asking to not receive junk mail. But I still love mail. And I think it's like this magical thing, right? Like, you can write someone a message and drop it in a box, and then no matter where they are, eventually it will show up at their house. This thing that you wrote on, right, that you sent to them, that's just for them. That's kind of amazing, right? Like, there's something sort of like, romantic about male. And I don't mean like kissy huggy romantic, just like, beautiful. Anyway, I started to think about sending mail, so I went back to my hotel and I designed postcards to send out. I had them printed when I returned home, and it was just like. I don't know, I just really wanted to send you all a note of hope because I know you need it right now. And honestly, when I think back to December, I'm like, oh, those were the good old days in comparison to December, January. But even as dark as it is right now, I know from my own life that just as the good times don't last forever, neither do the bad times. History has shown us that, right? And I see hope on the horizon. I do think we are reaching an important tipping point. And we cannot give up. As I always say, we're not doomed unless we decide we are. Over the past few weeks, I have been sending out hundreds of postcards to any of you who have Shared your address with me. I'm probably going to send out another hundred tomorrow because more postcard stamps have arrived. By the way. Postcard stamps, not as popular as you would think they would be. And so it's kind of slowing me down to keep ordering more and more postcard stamps. It just takes a while to get them. The mailing list for these postcards has been limited to people who have supported the podcast financially, whether via Patreon or ordering merch from the website. If you are one of those people and I have your address, check your mail. If you have supported me via Ko Fi, send me your address, email it to me, amandaosehorse World, and I will send you a card, too. Unfortunately, Ko Fi doesn't share your addresses with me, and meanwhile, Patreon and my own website did allow me to download that information. So if you want a postcard, holler at me. Right now, however, I am limiting my postcards to people who have thrown some money my way over the last few years because this postcard situation, like, it cost me money. I'm probably like 4 or $500 in on this thing. And I already do a ton of unpaid labor for so many people every day. So sometimes I just have to draw a line, right? Which brings me to my last point. This podcast, Close Horse, exists in the way it does and talks about the things it does because it is 100% independent. If I were on a network or took regular ads, it would, in one way or another, change the direction of my work. I mean, that's. That's just how it goes. I don't want to give that up. I want Clothesforce to remain a podcast that talks about the things that nobody else is talking about for whatever reasons because they can't or because they don't want to. I'm gonna stick that out. That said, I am more than five years into this, and I realize that something needs to change. There's nothing like a new year to make you think about the last year. You know, currently I work full time as a consultant that pays my bills. I love it. And then I work full time on Clotheshorse, mostly for free. Sometimes I do get some free books out of it, and that means I work six days a week. It means I work from when I get out of bed until, essentially I go to bed. I have no time to socialize, to work out, to just, like, around and play video games or talk on the phone with my friends or, I don't know, lay down and just stare into space. Everybody needs all of those things most days I don't mind that. I'm just working all the time. I'm kind of like a busy high energy person anyway. But you know what? Sometimes I hate it. And over the years I thought that I would reach a point where the podcast would bring in enough income to let me cut back on my other hours so that I could have a better work life balance or at least hire someone to help me so I could get a few hours back every, every week. And so I worked. It worked and worked with this hope that it would get better. This has not happened and I don't think I can do another year of non stop work. It doesn't help that for anyone who ever signed up for Patreon via their Apple phone, I guess Now Apple's taking 30% of the money on top of whatever Patreon takes. So I think the podcast is maybe bringing in $400 a month right now on Patreon. It's very, very sad. At least it covers most of the expenses of the podcast. But it's pretty, it's pretty demoralizing sometimes if I'm going to be really honest. And the thing is like I don't want to care about money, but unfortunately my landlord, my health insurance, my grocery store, they seem to feel differently and I just need to be honest with all of you about where I am right now and what my day to day life is like. So this is a reminder to please support clotheshorse. You can support the show via Patreon Ko Fi, which is a great option for one time support the Apple Premium subscription or buying merch. I am not paid by any of the platforms where you listen to this podcast. That's Spotify, Apple, YouTube, they get that for free. In fact, I pay them to be there for you. Over the next few weeks, a big chunk of the back catalog of closed source will be going behind the Patreon and Apple paywall in hopes of motivating more people to support the show financially. For those who cannot afford that, don't worry, all episodes are still available for free on YouTube. And if you can't support the show financially, I get it, okay. Times are hard. Show your support by getting more people to listen, share episodes with your friends, post on social media, share my posts, get other people to join the slow fashion community. I want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart who have supported me in so many ways over the past five years. Do not think that I am not grateful to you every day. I know many of your names. I recognize you on social social media and I am always so grateful that you are here. It means so much to me that you appreciate my work enough to pay for it and tell your friends about it. It's amazing. I'm just some rando sitting at my desk in my office full of weird stuff in a farmhouse that doesn't have central heat and you are here listening to what I have to say and enjoying it. Like, how amazing is that? I feel very lucky that I have been able to keep this going for so long, but I am also very aware that I need to be honest with all of you about what I need too. This concludes another really awkward conversation about money. Seriously, talking about money is the worst. Thank you for listening to another episod episode of Clotheshorse. Written, researched, edited, hosted all the things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty. As I mentioned, if you want to support my work financially, there are so many ways you can do that and you can find it all in the show notes. Lastly, but of course, never ever leastly thank you to Mr. Dustin Travis White for our music and audio support and I will talk to you all next week. Bye. It.