Episode 256: There IS (more) ethical consumption under capitalism (part one) with Lisa of Retro Housewife Goes Green

Summary

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Clotheshorse Episode 256: There IS (More) Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism (Part One)

With Lisa of Retro Housewife Goes Green
Release Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Amanda Lee McCarty

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Episode Overview

Amanda Lee McCarty returns with a provocative challenge to internet fatalism and consumer inaction: can there be more ethical consumption under capitalism? Joined by Lisa Sharp (Retro Housewife Goes Green), the episode delves into the effectiveness of boycotts, explains the true (and misunderstood) origins of “there's no ethical consumption under capitalism,” and reveals how illusion of consumer choice is manipulated by conglomerates across household products, cleaning supplies, groceries, and more. The tone is candid, conversational, and activist, offering both practical and political perspectives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Demystifying “There’s No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism”

• Origins of the Phrase ([07:00-16:15])

  • The phrase started around 2014 on Tumblr after the “feminist T-shirt scandal” (UK retailer Whistles’ shirts made in underpaid sweatshops).
  • Initial intent: reminder that all consumption has some impact; there’s no such thing as a ‘pure’ purchase.
  • Not about giving up, but about recognizing degrees of privilege and prioritizing progress over perfection.
  • Amanda emphasizes:

    “It was not intended to give everyone a free pass for Shein hauls… it was meant in good faith to remind everyone that it was really privileged and shortsighted to pass judgment on those who bought clothes at Walmart, or opted for the regular bananas over organic…” [14:22]

• How It’s Used Now (And Its Flaws) ([16:16-17:57])

  • The phrase is now a “thought-terminating cliché” that shuts down conversation and action.
  • Social and psychological reasons people default to these clichés: discomfort, overwhelm, and a desire for easy resolutions to complex issues.

2. Nuance vs. Perfectionism: What Does Ethical Consumption Look Like?

• Perfection Is Not the Goal ([23:27-25:30])

  • Amanda: “Changing our habits… is really an exercise in progress, not perfection.”
  • Lisa: People get discouraged by the idea they can’t do it “all the way”—but incremental lifestyle change matters more than isolated, performative no-buy days.

    “It has to be sustained. It has to be lifestyle changes, not just, well, I’m gonna buy a bunch of stuff today and won’t tomorrow…” —Lisa [27:36]

• The Paralyzing Effect of Purity Culture ([40:04-42:12])

  • Amanda draws parallels between boycott “perfectionism” and diet culture—one mistake and you’re “impure,” so you may as well give up entirely.
  • Lisa: "If somebody is legitimately trying to make changes and they put that they brought the wrong brand. Educate them, don’t shame them." [41:35]

3. Do Boycotts and “Voting with Your Wallet” Actually Work?

• Slow, Sustained Impact ([27:22-33:02])

  • True boycotts require consistent, ongoing participation—collective, not individual, momentum.
  • Real-world example: The protracted Target boycott (over a year) is actively hurting the company’s bottom line.
  • Amanda: “There is a direct path between our wallets, our checking accounts, and these billionaires...” [28:30]
  • Retailers only change in response to legislation or dropping sales.

• Pitfalls and Counterproductive Tactics ([36:35-39:45])

  • Reactionary destruction (throwing out goods from boycotted brands, e.g., Instapot or Ben & Jerry’s) is wasteful and misses the point.
  • Social media amplifies both good (awareness) and bad (clout-driven virtue signaling, “whataboutism,” and disinformation) around activism.

4. Recognizing Your Own Place in Structural Inequity

• Rural/Urban Differences and Privilege ([54:46-62:51])
  • Many don’t have practical alternatives to Target, Walmart, or Home Depot—especially in rural and low-income communities.
  • “You need to remember that when we have conversations about boycotting and changing our spending, that there’s a lot of privilege in being able to do it easily.” —Amanda [57:31]
  • Aldi, while imperfect, is a lifeline alternative for many communities—“not perfect, but much better for our community than Walmart.” —Lisa [59:39]

5. The Illusion of Choice: How Conglomerates Dominate Every Aisle

• Consolidation in Consumer Goods ([68:15-92:54])

  • “There are a lot less individual companies than you think,” Amanda sighs as she and Lisa deliver a mind-blowing tour of grocery, cleaning, and personal care aisles.

  • Many major “different” brands are owned by the same handful of mega-corporations—a few highlights:

    | Company | Notable Brands Owned (select examples) | Notable Political/Activism Ties | |-----------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------| | Unilever | Hellman’s, Sir Kensington’s, Ben & Jerry’s, AXE, Dove, Dermalogica, Seventh Generation, Vaseline, Schmidt’s, etc | Officially claims ‘apolitical,’ but restricts Ben & Jerry’s activism; lawsuit over Israel actions. | | SC Johnson | Windex, Drano, Scrubbing Bubbles, Ziploc, Mrs. Meyers, Method | Has its own Republican-heavy PAC; CEO was Trump science advisor. | | Procter & Gamble | Tide, Gain, Dawn, Febreze, Mr. Clean, Pampers, Charmin, Olay, Crest, Oral B, Head & Shoulders, Herbal Essences | Bipartisan donations, public stance on DEI and Trump tariffs. | | Nestle | Garden of Life, Haagen Dazs, (formerly many major candies) | Constantly gobbles up smaller natural/health brands. | | Estée Lauder Co. | La Mer, Clinique, Dr. Jart, The Ordinary, MAC, Tom Ford Beauty, Le Labo, Aveda, Bumble & Bumble | Major Trump and right-wing donor (e.g., Ronald Lauder).|

• Memorable Moment: Amanda's “where were you when you learned Seventh Generation wasn’t independent?” [79:58]. Lisa shares the heartbreak of seeing sustainable brands constantly bought up by mega-corporations.

• Illusion in Action:

  “It’s wild. If you went to Target today... even though they would seem as though there were hundreds of products there, I bet they would come from three companies." —Amanda [92:11]

• Food Sector Also Consolidated ([92:28-100:59])

  • Same trends in food, with brands like Kraft, Nestle, and Keurig Dr. Pepper hiding myriad brands and products.

6. So, What Can We Do?

• Small, Consistent Steps > All Or Nothing ([46:46-50:11])

  • Limit purchases from problematic companies to necessities, avoid impulse buys, and prioritize local or secondhand when feasible.
  • Amanda: “What we’re looking for here is a reduction, right, in the amount of money we’re putting into the hands of these companies…when everybody’s doing that, [it] is hugely impactful.”

• Leverage Community and Information Sharing ([97:45-100:07])

  • Online communities like subreddits often crowdsource alternatives and solutions when corporations buy out favorites.
  • Lisa: “Somebody’s probably already done this work.” [98:12]

• Recognize Power in Transparency ([96:43])

  • Lisa: “Just us realizing, oh, they’re all the same is power. Like, we need to know that all these billionaires are just taking everything and that we need to stand up against that. If you say you’re anti-billionaire, you need to know this stuff.”

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Notable Quotes

• On Ethical Consumption’s Origins:

  “The statement ‘there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism’ was intended to… remind everyone that there would always be an impact. Consumption is never devoid of impact.” —Amanda [13:55]

• On Impactful Change:

  “One person can't change the world alone, but when we work together, at the same time, we can create real change.” —Amanda [21:41]

• On Boycotts & Real World Impact:

  “Companies do see what we are doing and have to adjust because of that. And so these things do matter.” —Lisa [27:36]

• On Social Media & Perfection:

  “Educate them, don’t shame them.”—Lisa [41:35]

• On Local Options & Privilege:

  “There’s a lot of privilege in being able to do it easily. I feel that about myself all the time.” —Amanda [57:31]

• On the Brands Behind the Brands:

  “There are a lot less individual companies than you think, I guess is what I'm saying.” —Amanda [70:16]

• On Illusion of Choice:

  “We have an illusion of choice, but we don't actually have choice.” —Lisa [68:15]

• On the Path Forward:

  “We know that this is complicated, but step one is like, knowing who owns what, where your money is going, and then slowly starting to fix that.” —Amanda [95:59]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17–02:02 – Opening theme and Amanda introduction
• 07:00–16:15 – Deep dive: “No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism”—where did it come from?
• 23:27–25:30 – Why pursuing progress beats perfection in ethical shopping and activism
• 27:22–33:02 – Boycotts and economic blackouts: When do they work, and why?
• 36:35–39:45 – Mistakes and misconceptions: Why throwing things away does not punish bad companies
• 40:04–42:12 – Perfectionism, shame, and the toxic parallels to diet culture
• 54:46–62:51 – How rural/urban access, privilege, and local business landscapes shape what’s possible
• 68:15–95:12 – The big grocery/cleaning/personal care company exposé: Aisle by aisle, who owns what
• 96:43–100:07 – How to push back: Transparency, information sharing, and community solutions
• 100:08–end – Wrap-up, preview of Part 2 ("advice and alternatives"), and closing call-to-action

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Flow & Tone

Amanda and Lisa maintain a balance of gritty realism and hopeful activism. The tone is blunt, self-aware, honest, and frequently laced with humor (“I want to be really fucking radical…,” Amanda exclaims [23:51]). Both discourage self-flagellation and all-or-nothing thinking, encourage communal action and mutual aid, and stress the importance of making better choices—however imperfect—whenever possible.

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For Next Time

Part Two Preview: Lisa returns next episode with practical swaps and alternative recommendations, along with Amanda’s personal hierarchy for ethical shopping decisions. Amanda also promises to unpack food megacorporations even further.

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“All of this figuring out what to do next, changing our habits, helping others do the same—it all starts with understanding where our money is going and how it is impacting our world.” —Amanda [23:51]

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For further investigation and Lisa’s written resources, see the episode show notes for links to her Substack.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that thinks that billionaires are very extremely uncool. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 256, part one of two that dares to declare why, yes, there is more ethical consumption under capitalism. And for this exploration into changing up our habits regarding where and when we spend money, I am joined by someone you met earlier this year, Lisa Sharp of Retro Housewife goes Green Every time boycotts and economic blackouts come up on threads, I see Lisa dispensing great advice about how to vote with your wallet by making different choices. So I knew that she was going to be the perfect guest to break this down for you. And as I mentioned, this is part one of two. In this half, we're going to talk about how and when boycotting is effective. We're also going to explain how shifting up our spending habits is really an exercise in progress, not perfection. And then we're going to unpack some of the big companies that create an illusion of choice in terms of cleaning products, laundry detergent, food, skincare, and so much more. We're also going to talk about how these companies are having a political impact here in the United States. Next week in part two, Lisa will give you all kinds of advice about swaps and changes you can make, and I'll share my personal hierarchy of ethical decision making when I need to make a purchase. Before I get rolling here, we have

[B]

a lot to talk about.

[A]

Obviously, I want to say two things. One is thank you. Thank you so much to everybody who sent kind messages about my pricing episode. Anytime I. Well, really, anytime I post an episode or share something on social media, I kind of hold my breath for a minute because I'm like, how is this going to go awry? Did I mispronounce a word that multiple people are going to email me about? Is someone just going to be randomly upset by something I didn't even know I said? Or will I very intentionally say something like I did in the pricing episode about small businesses and their pricing? That may really super upset a lot of people. And actually it seems like for a lot of you it was like words you needed to hear. So thank you to everyone who sent me a message about that and I'm

[B]

going to try to get back to

[A]

you and all your messages later this week. It's just been, man, this year so

[B]

far, I have to say, has just been a real whirlwind for me because

[A]

I have been working a lot, as in I've brought in a lot of new clients. We're working on a lot of cool stuff. It's a really good problem to have, especially as everything in the world gets more expensive and including my kids tuition. So I'm grateful to have more work but it's just been a lot this year so far.

[B]

And on top of that like over

[A]

the past few weeks Dustin went on like a mini tour with his band here on the east coast and so his band was here for a few days. I need to cook a lot of vegan food and do cleanup and socialize and so I just feel really behind on life. So thank you to everyone who emailed me and I promise I will get back to you. Just be patient. The next part of the price value branding conversation that'll be happening in a few weeks, so stay tuned for that. The other thing I wanted to tell you is just a reminder that everything in the merch shop is 50% off. For podcast listeners using the promo code the PriceIsRight. Dustin and I have been caring for a colony of feral barn cats that have settled in our yard over the last year. We feed them. We have built little houses for them. I also built them a little three room heated house this winter. They also have a corner of our garage that's filled with boxes of straw and like other things to keep them warm on really, really cold days. They also have beds and toys on our porches. I'm constantly washing cat beds, I swear retrieving them when they blow into the field next door. And I do try to spend time with them. I'm not sure if they like it, but some of them I think might a little bit. So right now the colony of cats exists consists of 12, although I'm kind of thinking it might be 14 because two males have shown up over the last few weeks and they seem like they're hanging out here kind of permanently, including one who is a very, very handsome tuxedo. So yeah, so we have 12, maybe 14 cats that live in our yard and my project is to get all of them spayed and neutered between now and when Dustin leaves to record his next album in early May. So the clock is ticking. I found a clinic in town that will allow me to bring in two per week on Thursdays. So I rented some traps and I'm really doing it. Last week I trapped two, so only 10 or maybe 12 to go.

[B]

I need to draw one of those like thermometers on the wall that like people use for fundraisers and like fill it in every time I get another

[A]

cat fixed until we get to the top. I'm sure it'll be really motivating for me. But yeah, I'm doing it. So all the merch sales from this big mega merch sale will help cover

[B]

the cost of this project.

[A]

Because while the clinic prices are heavily discounted or 14 cats, it really adds up fast. So now more than ever, your purchase can have some positive impact and you get cool iron ons and stickers and you can find the merch shop@closed sourcepodcast.com and that's always linked in the show notes. Now, every time a conversation starts on social media about an upcoming economic blackout or a sustained boycott, you know, like Target conversations follow the same pattern. First a lot of people announce it, say they are participating in it, people are getting stoked. Then the posts start to shift into how impossible and non inclusive protests like this are, because somehow we can never discuss anything with nuance on social media. And it's, it's upsetting. Then that phase in the conversation is followed by small businesses begging people to remember that these boycotts don't apply to small businesses. I agree. And then others show up to call those small business owners capitalist bootlickers. That's always a fun day in the discourse. And then next people start picking apart how ineffective these kinds of boycotts are anyway, which ultimately takes the conversation to its final state. Stop. Someone declares there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so why bother? Repeat, repeat, repeat every time anything like this happens. Now, I've talked about the origin of there's no ethical consumption under capitalism in the past. I did a whole episode about it that I'll share in the show notes, but I thought we should do a little recap for new listeners or people like me whose brains are very tired from having to live in 10 years of Trump. So let's just briefly discuss where did there's no ethical consumption under capitalism originate? And why does it seem to have so much staying power? It wasn't Karl Marx or some other big time philosopher who made this statement. No one seems to know who said it first, but many Internet historians on Reddit seem to agree that it originated in the anti capitalism corner of Tumblr in 2014 after a feminist tea disaster, which could also be, I don't know the subtitle for my for my career. But from there this statement there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, spread across all the social media platforms. Yeah, it turns out that the statement that has been used to shut down approximately, I don't know, 900,000 conversations about shein And Temu, it actually started on social media. So what was this feminist tea disaster? Well, UK retailer Whistles did a collection of feminist teas. They said, this is what a feminist looks like. In partnership with Elle magazine and the Fawcett Society, which is a UK women's rights nonprofit. And the Daily Mail, not generally a great newspaper, definitely a newspaper that wants to take down any conversation of feminism. The Daily Mail published a story revealing that the shirts were made in a sweatshop in Mauritius where the garment workers were paid about 77 cents per shirt. Now, it's 2026 here, right? We have reached a point where we have had so many discussions about the ethics of a fast fashion feminist tee, but this was a new and shocking reality in 2014. So naturally this started a lot of online conversation about the ethics of clothing and consumption. After all, what's the point of wearing a feminist tee if the women making it are being underpaid, overworked, and living in terrible conditions? How feminist is it to wear a tee made by exploited women? Well, it's not right.

[B]

I agree. We all agree.

[A]

I say this as a person who has had to make a lot of feminist tease in my career. It never sat right with me because I knew that the sales of those feminist tees depended on harming women.

[B]

Like what?

[A]

Like a lot of social media discourse, the. The pendulum swung hard into serious black and white thinking. This is what we do on social media now, right? It started with that sound idea of why wear a feminist tee if it was made by exploiting women? That makes sense. Still makes sense. I agree. Tell your friends, pass it on, all that stuff. But it quickly turned into if you buy or consume anything, you are making the decision to support exploitation. And we know that that is some seriously flawed thinking, because to exist, to survive, we must consume food, water, clothing, shelter, education, healthcare, and so much more. To live a fulfilling life, we need social time and hobbies and opportunities to explore our creative sides and so on. Right? That means consuming. From this point of like, oh well, if you buy or consume anything, you are so down with exploitation. Even though, once again, we as humans need to consume to survive. The conversation went from there to if you're buying anything and not ensuring that it was made ethically, meaning everyone was paid a living wage, then you're a bad person. And of course, we know that line of thinking is completely lacking in nuance. What if you don't have the privilege of time, access, and most importantly, money to buy only ethically made items? And also, there are certain trappings of modern life that are non negotiable for existing within our society that don't have truly ethical phones, computers, routers, stoves, ovens, washing machines, furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. If I have to see another comment on a post about fast fashion that says, meanwhile you're making this post from your iPhone, I am going to burst into flames. Because right now, having a phone is pretty non negotiable. Not only does it shut you off socially, it shuts you off from jobs, it shuts you off from, I don't know, calling 911 in an emergency. A phone is a basic need. Okay? Having a phone does not mean that all of your activism is hypocritical. Right? And I think that that's one way that people shut down other people who really want to make a change in this world. You know, it's an easy way to just make them feel foolish, make them feel like the effort they're making is pointless. When you kind of unpack that a little bit, right, when you're like, okay, there are kind of things that we need that we often cannot find ethically. That's where this conversation of there's no ethical consumption under capitalism came into play. And in its original context, it made sense. It was intended to remind everyone that no matter where they bought it and how clean the supply chain was, there was no such thing as a perfect purchase of anything, that there would always be an impact. Because consumption is never devoid of impact. Someone worked to make it happen. Resources were used. And so the statement there's no ethical consumption under capitalism was intended to, like, level set that for everybody.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It was not intended to give everyone a free pass for shein halls. It was not intended as an excuse to buy more Keurig pods or skip out on economic activism. It was meant in good faith to remind everyone that it was really privileged and shortsighted to pass judgment on those who bought clothes at Walmart, or opted for the regular bananas over organic, or drove an old car instead of a Prius, because that is what they could afford and what they could access. It was intended to be a recognition that for many people, the most ethical and sustainable option is what they can afford, not the one with all of the certifications attached to, also meant that those who do have the privilege of time, money and access should make the most ethical choices available to them as often as possible. Maybe it won't always be possible, but they should do their best to try to make the most ethical choice when they can. The other Thing that I love about the original intention of there's no ethical consumption under capitalism is recognizing that we cannot shop our way to a better future, a better world where workers are paid a living wage and work under good conditions, where resources aren't wasted, where products are better and longer lasting. All of that means that all of us need to get involved in fighting for change by voting, protesting, having conversations with others, letting our elected representatives know that we want better regulation of all those industries, maybe even running for office, showing up for our communities. In other words, nothing gets better if we don't get involved, no matter where we're buying stuff.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

So we know now that people are using there's no ethical consumption under capitalism incorrectly.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Why do we still see it and hear it so often? Often. Well, that's why I want to talk about thought terminating cliches. These are statements used to shut down critical thinking or further discussion by offering a simplistic, often cliche response to a complex issue. Some examples are we're doomed, we're cooked. My impact will never be as big as Amazon, so who cares? Oh, you're posting about fast fashion from your iPhone. And of course there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. All thought terminating cliches. The problem with these thought terminating cliches is that they're effective at ending the conversation and they get us to move on to another subject. Possibly because we don't know what to say back, or we feel embarrassed, or we feel called out. They repress any real positive change because progress begins with difficult conversations and questions along with ugly truths. And while some people weaponize thought terminating cliches to control others, they're a big part of cults. Most people are just using them because they feel scared and overwhelmed. And I get it, because if someone

[B]

tells you your Nespresso pods aren't actually

[A]

being recycled, or that that miracle vegan leather actually contains plastic, it's not great news to hear. It makes you feel angry, disappointed, kind of scammed. Like someone lied to you and you fell for it. These feelings are not fun. And thinking about it, talking about it even more, that just means being more negative feelings. And it also means doing the work of figuring out what you're going to do next and so simply tossing out, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. It ends the conversation, it ends the bad thoughts, and it feels easier. So going back to those whistles feminist teas, there's something kind of ironic about them. See, the wages of the garment workers were actually higher than the minimum wage In Mauritius, this was seen as like a good job. And furthermore, several groups considered this factory to be in line with an ethical code of conduct. With an ethical code of conduct. And meanwhile, what that meant is that this factory wasn't actually a bad factory when you looked at it that way, and it wasn't actually doing anything wrong from an industry perspective. At the same time, it's super unfair that workers can get paid 77 cents for making a t shirt that will sell for 60 to $70. No one involved in making, selling or shipping that shirt will get a fair share of the selling price, while those at the top will take most of that money for themselves. The fast fashion system and really every other industry out there at this point, like I'm going to tell you in my conversation today with Lisa, we're not really going to talk about clothes brands at all. We're going to talk about companies that make deodorant and face wash and laundry detergent. And these industries have the same problems as the fast fashion industry, and that is that they only work for those people at the top. When people stay poor and hungry for work, even when that means keeping entire countries poor and hungry for work. This is a broken system for everyone except the wealthiest. And when you see this illustrated time and time again, you can see how, at least right now in 2026, there really is no truly ethical consumption under capitalism. But that doesn't mean that we give up completely. That doesn't mean we guilt ourselves about needing things. It also doesn't mean we should take the bleak view that the world is fucked and unfixable and that we should just keep making shein hauls until the world ends. We have the power to make it better, no matter how overwhelming it all seems. And trust me, my friends, it feels very overwhelming right now. I'll tell you, last week I cried almost every day just thinking about all the people who would be alive right now if Trump had never been elected as president. And I'm talking people all around the world. That's heavy to think about, but we

[B]

have,

[A]

we have the power to change that. You know, we can't bring those people back to life, but we can protect more people that are still around. You know, one person can't change the world alone, but when we work together, at the same time, we can create real change. We really do have the power when we all work together. Problem is, we have a really hard time working together. And I don't know how to fix that. Trust me, I spend time every day wanting to Just yell at people I don't know and tell them to knock it off.

[B]

Seriously,

[A]

humans. Humans are complicated. Okay? One of my favorite things about the slow fashion community is that there is a place for everyone. We all play a part in a better world. And we reduce, we refuse, and we resist every single day. Even small things like mending our clothes or washing them carefully, they are radical in a hyper consumerist, fast everything world. Shopping small and local when we can, opting for secondhand first, mindfully rehoming our stuff, eating our leftovers, sharing information, picking up litter, voting, supporting mutual aid, it all matters. And slow fashion, it is a way of life. It's not just a one day thing, it's something we do every single day. One of the most radical things we can do is think about the things we do, think about the things we

[B]

buy, think about where we buy them,

[A]

and think about the impact of those decisions on the people and community around us. That is so radical in a fast fashion, fast everything. There are way too many billionaires world.

[B]

I don't know about you, but I

[A]

want to think about things. I want to care about others, I want to make the best decisions. And so I guess what I'm saying is I want to be really fucking radical. All of this figuring out what to do next, changing our habits, helping others do the same. It all starts with understanding where our money is going and how it is impacting our world. And that's what Lisa and I are going to do today. So. So let's jump into our conversation.

[B]

Lisa, why don't you remind everybody of who you are?

[C]

I'm Lisa and I'm with Retro Housewife Goes Green. I have a variety of other websites, but that's my main one. And I'm in Oklahoma. Basically, the last year and a half, I've kind of ended up being more in the political space, which was not my intention, but here we are.

[B]

Yeah, but the world needs you. You're like the antidote to trad wifery. Because I get all riled up about trad. The trad wife landscape for a lot of different reasons. But one is like, hey, I don't want these people to ruin how awesome it is to cook and garden and care for your family and the pride in cleaning your home and doing your laundry well and repairing your clothes. Like, don't let the trad wives take that away from us. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, today we're going to talk about something that you actually help people with a lot online all the time, which is this idea of how you can withhold your money from certain brands, shift up your spending habits, shift up what you buy, and actually have a larger impact on the world. Now, of course, one person can't change the world alone, but when we're all doing this together, there actually are significant impacts. And with all the different boycotts and no buy days that have come up this year and last year, it's been really difficult for people to figure out where they fit into it and how they can do it. The even larger thing is that a lot of the companies that we are buying stuff from every day without knowing we're low key, like giving money to MAGA basically, at this point, even when we're just trying to wash our dishes. So I know you are an expert in helping people navigate this in their homes. So today we're gonna talk all about that. Lisa, you post about this kind of stuff all the time, like why you shouldn't shop here and why you could shop there and helping people figure the stuff out. I'm sure you see a lot of, like, pushback sometimes, sometimes kind of like excuses. They're not necessarily always. I don't know, I don't want to be mean, but sometimes I don't feel like they're real excuses. I know that sounds mean, but people will be like, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so what does it really matter? Or they'll be like, oh, you're over here telling me not to buy stuff from Unilever, but like you're posting on Meta. You know, it's like always something like that, right? Where it's like the whataboutism. And so I thought we could just get started by like talking about, like, do boycotts work? Because that's often one of the pushbacks. I see. The last time there was the big no buy day, was that in February or January?

[C]

I see random ones occasionally, but I think the last big one was February.

[B]

So what do you say to people? Because I'm sure you get this kind of pushback who are like, this kind of stuff doesn't work well, the problem

[C]

is it has to be sustained. It has to be lifestyle changes, not just, well, I'm gonna buy a bunch of stuff today and won't tomorrow and then I'll go back to normal after that. And people will often, you know, make excuses because they think, well, I can't do everything and I can't do it perfectly and that's not the goal. None of us are going to be perfect under the system. But if we're all Making changes. We've seen targets, been hit pretty hard by people stopping shopping there. Companies do see what we are doing and have to adjust because of that. And so these things do matter. Just have to actually have the initiative and stick with it and not just be like, well, I'll do it one day. But that's all.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it really is the time thing, because, I mean, we're more than a year now into the Target boycott, and their business just keeps getting worse, and they have a new CEO who seems like she only has bad ideas, too. Honestly, I was just reading about it this morning, and I was like, yeah, I don't think that's what you think it is. I don't think the problem is what you think the problem is. But hopefully someday you'll get the memo of what the real problem is. But it is having a major impact on Target. Right. And all the years that I worked as a buyer, there were only two things that would ever get my employers to change direction. One was the law. And right now, unfortunately, the law is a complicated situation. And the other thing was declining sales. The moment sales took a dip, it was like, what? Okay, what is going wrong? And, like, a whole team of people would be, like, digging into every possible scenario that was causing this problem and try to right the ship. And furthermore, I mean, there is a direct path between our wallets, our checking accounts, and these billionaires. You know, like, there's a direct line between our spending and people on the Epstein list. Like. Like, it becomes more and more apparent every day. And I feel like a few years ago, if you had said something like that, people would have thought you were just, like, a conspiracy theorist. But we actually have seen, like, demonstrable proof. You know, I think about, like, Les Wexner being called in to testify in front of, you know, Congress about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And I'm like, that guy was behind, like, every mall brand of my youth. You know, money of mine, babysitting money of mine went to Les Wexner, who then used it, you know, in one way or another, to go do horrible things.

[C]

They were the ones behind a lot of the trends and the things that gave us all eating disorders and body image issues.

[B]

Yep. Oh, the past couple weeks especially, I have been thinking about that a lot. I'm like, all of these horrible pedophile billionaire men are, like, directly related to my eating disorder, basically, because they were, like you said, they were creating the. And it's so gross to say this, but, like, the body trends of my teenage and early 20s. And, like, they definitely had an impact on my own perception of my body and what I was doing about that and seeing it now many years later and who these men really are, who I wasn't even aware, like, existed back then. I'm sure you didn't either. Knowing the reality of them, it just

[A]

makes me feel sick.

[B]

And so, like, even if you think that boycotting can be difficult or inconvenient, that change is hard because it always is at first. And I get that there are so many good reasons to stop giving your money to these people. Now.

[C]

I.

[B]

And I'm also going to tell you all, even though Target publicly has not said, hey, I think our business is bad because of the boycott, they know that. I feel like, honestly, not that I want to give Target advice, but it would be good for them to just say that, that they know that instead they keep finding other problems that they think it is when it's like everybody else ever knows what the real problem is. Don't you think that's funny?

[C]

I don't think they want to acknowledge that it's even happening and hope that people are like, oh, it's not working, because they're not talking about it.

[B]

I think that's what they think, too, that we'll just get bored and give up. And I love when It's March of 2026 and I open threads and someone's like, hey, just a reminder, we're still not shopping at Target. Right? And everybody's like, hell, yeah, we're never going in there again. And I'm like, yeah, like, this is a great example of a sustained, large boycott. And like, the sales. If you look at Target sales as, like, a line graph, it just keeps

[A]

going lower and lower and lower.

[B]

And on one hand, Target could get it together and change things. On the other hand, Target could go out of business, and that would be okay, too. So it is working. I think that you're right that they think we will just give up. I also think that if they publicly admit it, they are reinforcing to all of us that this kind of action works.

[C]

Other brands don't want them to tell that.

[B]

No. Yeah, yeah. Because they all. They all know each other, you know? Okay, So I thought we could get started and just talk about the nuance of boycotting, because like you said, it's

[A]

really about doing your best. Like, what works best for you and what's sustainable for you.

[B]

It doesn't have to be perfect. Like, when was the first time you really saw yourself making that Decision to shift your habits, shift your spending, because of your values and your beliefs.

[C]

I think I have for a lot of my life. Just as I've learned more, there's been more brands I don't support. I've boycotted Nestle for decades now.

[A]

Oh, the worst.

[C]

One of my proudest moments is getting blocked by them on Twitter.

[B]

That is something to be proud of.

[C]

But, you know, after the election, it kind of felt more serious. We really got to see just how much money they're putting into these elections. And ever since we've allowed corporations to be such a big part of our politics, it's been a downward spiral. And right now we can't get that overturned. But we can give them less money to put into politics and help the brands that are actually doing things that we appreciate. And just as it probably needs to be with everybody, for me it's been gradual. It's not like one day I was like, okay, never buying any bad brand again. Every day it's, there's still things I'm changing. I keep finding out people I thought were okay were bad. So it's a process.

[B]

When I was working on the research for this list, because we're going to go through in a few brands that you basically think are probably like small indie cool brands in like the home goods and personal care and skincare base are actually owned by like evil mega corporations. And as I was doing the research for this, I was like, wait, you also. And you like, it was like shattering honestly because this is all so sneaky. But you know, there is really like these companies being able to affect basically our day to day quality of life now around the world. That only happens because we continue to give them our money. Those donations they're making to Trump's inaugural campaign or you know, to get, you know, right wing judges, like to help them win their elections, whatever. All these things, that money that they're spending and putting into that, that comes from us, like we're actually a really important part of this. And now that we know we have this opportunity to change that trajectory and I mean, it doesn't mean we have to like tell everybody we know, but we can do that. And like you said, it's not like changing everything all at once. It's like picking something that you're gonna deal with right now and then what's the next step after that once you have that mastered. So something I see a lot and I wish I could say I just see this on the MAGA side, although they do it in the most demonstrable way where they're, like, burning all their Nikes and stuff is that you don't go throw out everything.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Do you see this a lot too?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I'll see People be like, I'm getting really into sustainable fashion, so I'm throwing out all my fast fashion clothes. And I'm like, no, you're not. You're definitely not doing that. Please don't do that. But I. But I see it happen all the time. People be like, oh, wait, Unilever owns Ben and Jerry's. I'm gonna throw out all the ice cream. Why? We didn't say go out and waste things.

[C]

All that doesn't hurt you.

[B]

Yeah. What are you doing? What are other mistakes like that that you see people making?

[C]

That's definitely one that bothers me the most. Like, when I was telling people that Instapot got bought out, I saw people like, oh, I'm gonna get rid of mine and buy a different one. I'm like, no, no, no. Take care of the one you have. Make it last as long as possible.

[B]

I know. Okay. The silver lining of that one, though, is then everybody donates them to the Goodwill. And if you've been wanting an Instapot, now's a good time to go get one. Yeah, I saw that two people. I actually saw a post on Reddit that was literally a photo of someone's Instapot in the trash can. And I was like, why would you ever do that?

[C]

That also just, like, hurts my soul as an environmentalist because you don't have electronics in the trash.

[B]

I know, I know. And even if you were like, oh, it was just to, like, make a statement, I didn't really do that. Like, people are gonna see that because people don't read captions, People don't read comments. I'm gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna go throw mine in the trash right now too.

[C]

Well, and it becomes these days, a social media trend.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There was a brand recently that has started being boycotted, and everybody was throwing their stuff away. And I was just seeing video after video, and they're clearly just doing it for clout. And it's like, that's not what this is about.

[B]

Yeah. I think that social media makes these idea of boycott and economic blackouts. It makes them harder and less effective in a weird way. Like, I think on one hand, social media can be this powerful tool for spreading information and getting people involved and educating people. Right. But in the wrong hands, it becomes this way to. I mean, well, I know, I'm preaching to the choir here. We've seen this happen there. The amount of social media like psyops that have happened over the last few years is over the top. It's really scary to me, actually. But we see it actually function in a way that actually gets people to not participate in activism, not participate in boycotts, because, like, they've either been told they can't do it perfectly and shouldn't bother, or they're told it's not impactful, or they're just shown how to do it incorrectly. Like, throwing out your stuff is not a boycott.

[C]

You might as well just throw money in the trash.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, sure, go for it. You know, that'd be better for the environment, honestly, than throwing your insta pot in there.

[C]

Money is at least biodegradable.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was thinking. And I was like, wait, but is there, like, weird hidden plastic in money? There could be at this point.

[C]

There's plastic in all of us.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. I think that is, like, one of the biggest mistakes I see people making is that they are just throwing stuff in the trash. But I also just see this, like, drive for perfection really ruins it.

[A]

And it just feels a lot like diet culture to me, where this idea of perfectly depriving yourself, like perfection and

[B]

deprivation, that intersection is a virtue. And if you cheat on your diet, which, by the way, I hate diet

[A]

culture so much, I hate even using

[B]

the phrase cheat on your diet.

[A]

But I'm just doing this for illustration purposes.

[B]

Like the moment you cheat on your diet by eating something that wasn't part of that diet, that deprivation, and now it's.

[A]

It's not perfect anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're not dieting perfectly or you're not boycotting perfectly.

[B]

Suddenly it's reflection on you that you

[A]

are a weak person.

[B]

You're a person of, like, low moral virtue.

[A]

And because you have sort of like

[B]

broken the purity of that diet or that boycott, then you are like, not

[A]

only a bad person, a weak person,

[B]

but you should also just give up.

[A]

And I just see this sort of conversation happening all day long on social

[B]

media where people are kind of nitpicking

[A]

at the imperfection of the way someone is participating in a boycott and it makes people quit.

[B]

And I think that, like, that kind of purity focus doesn't do anybody any favors.

[C]

Again, social media comes into play. It's kind of a mixed bag. It's not necessarily bad to point out that somebody's doing something they shouldn't. Somebody posts target, hey, we're not shopping there, but people take it too far and then will, like, bully people to the point that they're like, well, I can't do anything right, so I'm not gonna try. It's like, you can nicely point out to people, I mean, if they're just flaunting it and they're posting Target hauls all the time, they don't care. But if somebody is legitimately trying to make changes and they put that they brought the wrong brand. Educate them, don't shame them.

[A]

Ugh.

[B]

I mean, I see this so often on the Internet, no matter what the topic is, what the person was posting about. I saw a Reddit post yesterday where a guy was like, oh, this cat showed up our house. We were like, okay, we're going to adopt her. We brought her inside. She had six kittens. And people were not reading the caption and were just immediately like, I can't believe you don't have that cat spayed.

[A]

I can't believe.

[B]

When are you doing it? Like, jumping on top of this guy? And at least some people would be like, hey, did you read the caption? This cat literally showed up at their house and they brought her inside. You know, like, it literally just happened. And I mean, that's just, like, one example of the kind of stuff I see. But I also deal with people showing up in the comments section. I'll be posting about one thing, and they'll be like, yeah, but what about blank?

[C]

You can't, in one post talk about every issue.

[B]

Yeah, you can't, you can't. I. I know it. And I think that with boycotts, we tend to, like, follow that kind of train of thought, too, where, I don't know, someone will be like. Like, I. The example I gave earlier, they'll be like, oh, you're posting about how you don't shop at Target, but, like, aren't you posting on Meta right now? Or like, I did a thing about ChatGPT last week, and people kept showing up to be like, well, that's really ironic. Are you gonna quit Instagram, too? And I honestly, I used to, like, engage with those people, and now I'm like, off, and I just block them. Because I. I'm like, you are not even here to have a real productive conversation. You either just want to be the most right person on the Internet, or you are really struggling with your complicated feelings about ChatGPT or whatever it is.

[C]

You know, there's a lot of issues with nuance not being understood.

[B]

Yes, yes, absolutely. And when it comes to boycotting Nuance is really, really important because you will tangle yourself up in knots. One great example I have is I was on vacation with my husband. We were on a road trip in Arizona and we were in Flagstaff, Arizona at the moment and he came down with norovirus, which, like norovirus. I have a tremendous amount of anxiety about vomiting. Like I will hold it in forever. I will fight it so hard because like vomiting illnesses are just, I, I can't explain it but they're really upsetting to me. I think it's because I had cancer when I was a kid and I chemo and I threw up a lot as a kid. So it's like very traumatic. So of course the moment my husband is vomiting on vacation, I'm like, oh, I'm next. It's only a matter of time. And somehow I will just say, well, I know why, because I went to the store and got a whole bunch of like bleach cleaner and stuff while we were staying in this hotel and wiped down the bathroom every time he went in there. I did not get sick, so cleaning works. But anyway, we're in this town where I don't live and we're staying in a, like a cool motel on the edge of town and I can't drive the rental car because it's in Dustin's name, not mine. And the only drugstore nearby was a Walgreens and for some reason it was closed even though it was six o'.

[C]

Clock.

[B]

I don't know why, but he needed like medicine. He needed like electrolytes and anti nausea stuff and you know, we needed Advil. We needed all these things so he would be okay. I needed a thermometer, you know, to take his temperature and, and I was like the only place within walking distance and it's still a 45 minute walk is Walmart. And I was like, oh God no. Like I can't do that. Like, oh. And then I just had to be

[A]

like, listen, your husband is sick, right?

[B]

It's not like you're going to Walmart to do a haul. You're going there to buy medicine. Like just do it. And so I did it and you know, got all the things he needed and he actually was like, like remarkably better the next morning. But sometimes you just have to like be gentle with yourself.

[C]

Yeah. And when things like that come up, get the things you have to get. Don't go on a shopping spree and be like, well since I'm here, I'm

[B]

going to buy a. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[C]

Buy the things you need and get out. I mean, even with Target, if that was your only store, truly your only store, they count on you buying a bunch of stuff you don't need. If we just actually stuck to the things we need, when we have to shop from stores we don't like, that still hurts them. They, they count on impulse buying.

[B]

It's true, actually. You know, Target is a great example because yes, their sales continue to decline thanks to this boycott, but Target sales have been declining for more than four years at this point. You go back in time to four years ago. What was that? That was the pandemic. The early years of the pandemic. And Target, like a lot of retailers saw a hit with the closure of stores. Right? That, that is not part of this formula. But what Target did wrong is during the pandemic they were like, oh, this pickup thing is working really well. We're going to invest more and more resources into people ordering online and picking up at store and we are going to deprioritize and put less resources into the actual stores themselves. And what happened is their sales just continued to go down and down and down because Target is a business that really relies on you coming in there impulse purchasing things. And, you know, it was a meme forever. Went to Target to buy one thing left. Spending $100 always. Right. I would experience it myself. I'd be like, I need cat food. What is this whole cart full of stuff? What happened? You know, and it's true.

[C]

I mean, how they set up their store is designed to make you do that. They know what they're doing.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's like, I think that what we're looking for here is a reduction, right. In the amount of money we're putting into the hands of these companies. And sometimes that can mean like, yeah, we give them zero. That's great. But sometimes it means, hey, we're going in there and we're just buying the cat food and we're not buying like a cute T shirt and some new makeup. And like, you know, they always had. I don't know if they. I haven't been to Target in so long now, but remember, they would always have like the cutest, like tchotchkes. Like, you couldn't say no. They'd always have like cute holiday decorations and nice little like bowls and cups. Don't. You don't need to buy any of that. Right? Go in there, get your contact solution, get your medicine, get whatever it is that you needed to be there and just leave and that alone. When everybody's doing that is hugely impactful on their business and continues to be okay. So we talked a little bit here about like if you can't skip something completely, that's okay. Just like to do your best by cutting back, kind of avoiding that purity mindset about all or nothing doing it perfectly. And I also just think, you know, recognizing that not only can you not do it perfectly all the time, the same goes for others and like treating them with that grace. And I would just say also like shop local and small when possible and we're going to give you some advice for that. Opt for secondhand first when you can. You know Instapot is like bankrupt now. I'm not sure what's going on with them. But like if you want any an Instapot, go on your Facebook marketplace, go to a thrift store, go to a yard sale. That's where I got mine was actually at a yard sale. I waited three years for an Insta pot because I knew someday it would pop up at a yard sale. And it did and had never been used even. I think a lot of people got those as gifts a couple years ago. And once again just like give yourself that space to not be perfect but but do just do the best that you can.

[A]

Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. Or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brand Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite Plus. I just want to also add here

[B]

on a personal note that right now

[A]

Ruby is actually working with me to

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create a one of a kind unique to me.

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Special dress that I will be wearing for all future clothes horse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's slow fashion.academy Selena Sanders a social impact brand that specializes in

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[B]

So Lisa, what for you was the hardest store brand product for you to like? Give up slash change

[C]

one that's still really hard, although it doesn't always come up, is we got a Home Depot several years ago and of course that means we have less local places and one of the only other places we have is even worse. And, and we're not close to anything else. So if you have some kind of household emergency, it's pretty much that. And my dad built a shed for us recently and he had to get the supplies from Home Depot. There was no other place to get all that stuff. He couldn't be driving multiple times a day over an hour away to go somewhere else. That would also not be great because, you know, then he's just giving a bunch of money to the gas company. So obviously there wasn't a whole lot of choice there. But we try, you know, if we're doing a home project, if we can order ahead of time or get something, but emergencies come up, and that's one that my town is not well equipped for. I know that happens a lot in rural parts of the world there. Sometimes Walmart's your only option. Fortunately, we do have a couple of regional grocery stores now, although all of our local ones basically went out of business when we got a Super Walmart.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, I think one of the reasons this is so hard is because for the past couple of decades these companies have been driving all the other options out of business. I mean, I feel like it really started with Walmart back in the 90s and the early aughts. That would be a topic of conversation all the time, how Walmart would move into a town, sort of kill the entire Main street, all the small businesses, and they were the only option. Right. And then, you know, over the past few years, Walmart has actually close some of those stores and now there's nothing. And now the Family Dollar and Dollar General are more like Dollar General are moving in there, which offers an even lower quality product and they like totally jack up. The prices like the Dollar General and the Family Dollar always make me really angry as a person who grew up poor because they, you know, they always say it's like expensive to be poor. Well, places like Dollar General Insurance, that that's the case where you get a lot less value for your money.

[C]

Yeah, it's created a lot of food deserts around Oklahoma and their options for food are Dollar General or gas station. People don't want to talk about that.

[B]

There's huge parts of this country where if you're lucky, you have a Walmart because the other options are, like you said, you can go to the Dollar General or you can go to a gas station. My husband used to live in a really small town in Texas where the only grocery store was an hour and a half drive away. And I think we also just need to remember that when we have conversations about boycotting and changing our spending, that there's a lot of privilege in being able to do it easily. I feel that about myself all the time. I live in a rural area, but because where I live has a very large population of Amish and Mennonite people, we actually have an almost, I don't know, I feel like it's almost retro amount of locally owned grocery stores, hardware stores and department stores. So I can buy just about anything from a local business. But that is extremely unusual. And honestly, when I was living in the city, not an option.

[C]

Yeah. In contrast, you know, like, I live in a town that's about 17,000 people, but it's the county sea and it's probably the biggest town for several counties around us. People drive an hour or more to come to our Walmart because it's that or Dollar General or gas station. And so, you know, once a month or something will come stock up in my town. And it's just not easy in a lot of places to be like, well, just go to the local grocery store. Well, that's not an option a lot of times.

[A]

No.

[C]

Had some people tell me, well, Aldi's not that great because that's where I do some of my grocery shopping. It's like, you'd rather me go to Walmart?

[B]

I know.

[A]

What do you want me to do?

[B]

I know. I always, like, in my mind I sort of like organize this hierarchy of like, like the best option to the worst option. And like for me, I always put Aldi above going to Walmart.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[B]

You know, like they're a German owned

[C]

company and they still have DEI and yeah, that's still a chain. But it's been very helpful to my community to have it's given an alternative to Walmart. It's more affordable. And for me personally it was very helpful during, especially the early part of the pandemic.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[C]

Because we were able to get grocery delivery from them and I was doing groceries for myself and my husband, my in laws, my parents who live outside of town so they don't have options and my grandparents and otherwise somebody from all of our households, and we're all high risk households would have had to be going in person to Walmart. Yeah, there weren't good options.

[B]

Yeah, no, I, I've always been a fan of Aldi, but the first few years of the pandemic is when I grew to, like, love Aldi, honestly. Because it's a small format, you already know where everything is. So you can also minimize your time in there, which also makes it a lot safer. And you can generally, you really could. If you planned and made a list, which you should do anyway, when you're gonna go grocery shopping, you could get pretty much everything there. And in the first year of the pandemic, we were living in Philadelphia, and the grocery stores that are in town, in the city are expensive. They always had, like, bad produce anyway, unless it was like, you were, you know, you were going to like, Whole Foods or something. But the moment the pandemic, those grocery stores began to have a very little product, they were out of everything. And so we would actually get in the car and drive over the bridge to New Jersey and go to Aldi and just get, like, everything in one swoop, enough to last, like, three, four weeks and come back. And it was just, I don't know, it was such, like, a comfort to just be like, this is all we have to do and we have it. And for me, like, with my own. I think everybody needs to have their own version of their, like, hierarchy of, like, this is the best place I go, and if that doesn't work, then I go to this place and then this and this and this. Working their way down. Before we moved out here to Lancaster County, Aldi was my first choice. And then I would go down from there. Out here, it's more in the middle because I have other local grocery options. But, like, is Aldi perfect? Of course not. They put tons of produce in plastic. Right.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

They're a big corporation. But they also seem to pay their store teams pretty well. They don't give out plastic bags, which I kind of like. The pricing is really accessible. And I don't know, it just feels like it could be a much worse option. I think that Walmart is a worse option for my personal hierarchy.

[C]

Yeah, well, I'm just looking at my. My own community. Walmart had more of a negative impact than Aldi has. And I think that's important too, to look at your own community and circle and what is benefiting where you are. And we'd be better off without Walmart.

[B]

So many towns would be, I think for younger people, they were children or maybe not even born yet when Walmart was really decimating small towns. So they only live in a post Walmart world where they don't know, but drive across the middle of the country, go across Texas, go across Oklahoma, go through the Midwest, and you will drive through town after town where the main street is like a ghost town now. And that was once where the drugstore was, the hardware store, the grocery store. It's all empty. And it has been like that now for decades, thanks to Walmart.

[C]

When I was a kid, we had, we had multiple grocery stores, one with like a really good butcher. We had a main street where every building was occupied. We had department stores, we had a drugstore that still had a soda fountain, a lot of locally owned pharmacies and all of that. And, and we had a Walmart, but it was just like one without groceries. And the really small kinds, I don't know that they even have those anymore. But I remember when we got the Super Walmart and pretty quickly those stores just kept closing one by one. And we had one grocery store that held on for a really long time. And I think that's partially because of how they were located in town kind of helped. But they closed, I think just before the pandemic or early in the pandemic. And now we have one regional chain grocery store and one other chain and Aldi, and that's it. And like I said, this is a small town, but it seems bigger than it is because we're the shopping center for several rural counties. So we should be able to sustain a lot of grocery stores. But Walmart just takes everything.

[B]

Yeah, they really do. And I read a few years ago it's like half of the groceries bought in the United States are bought at Walmart. And for people who live in cities, that might be shocking because maybe their Walmart is outside the city, but let me tell you, outside of urban centers, that is often your only or best choice for groceries. And there are so many problems with this consolidation of wealth towards one company. But one major one is that Walmart has an immense amount of power and control over how much we pay for groceries and what groceries are available. Even if you don't shop at Walmart, what you're paying for groceries at your local grocery store and what's available there is directly impacted by Walmart. And that's really scary to think about, but that is what has happened with this sort of consolidation of wealth and power over the last few decades. We just have so many less options. Even thinking about, for example, Target, I hear people all the time who are like, I don't know how people live without Target. And I'm like, like what? Because we didn't get Target where I grew up Until I was literally my 20s. Okay. And we had a lot of local sort of discount store chains that through the 90s started getting bought up by larger chains and then those chains went bankrupt. And then it was, you have Walmart and Target. Like, there were so many options.

[C]

We still don't have a Target. I would have to drive an hour and a half to go to one.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the Target is so far away from my. I'm like, I'm not driving 45 minutes to go to Target, you know, But Target was like when it first opened. I will also just tell you, my family always thought of Target as like really bougie and expensive. Right. But my family also thinks that Walmart's kind of expensive. But so to me, Target was never even the best option for anything until I lived in the city and, and they began to put more and more targets in urban centers. Then it was like, oh, I can go there to get cat food. Like, I don't have a car, but I can get there. Now I take public transportation. But even, you know, when I was younger living in these cities, places like Walmart and Target were not options because

[A]

they were outside the city.

[B]

So within the city we actually had more local options. But that has also changed over time as these chains have moved into the urban centers. I also just think about like, for example, drugstores we used to have out here where I live. We had a CVS and we had a Rite Aid and I believe also a Walgreens. And over the past two years they've all closed and now we only have CVS. We only have one CVS and it's a 30 minute drive from my house. And for me, it's not like I'm going to get medication every day or even every week, so it doesn't impact me as much. But I think about people who need to go to pharmacies all the time, how messed up it is that they only have one option and it might be really far away. And once again, this is just because these companies are like gobbling each other up.

[C]

We have an illusion of choice, but we don't actually have choice.

[B]

It's true. And so I think that is actually a great transition. Thank you for saying that, Lisa. Because now we're going to talk about some of the illusions of choice that we think we have now. Some of them are like more obvious ones. Like when I tell people like, hey, you know, TJ Maxx Home Goods and Marshalls are all the same company. So is Sierra Trading Post. It does blow Their minds. There are people who think those are all very different stores. But the fact is, a lot of times you see the same thing at TJ Maxx, Home Goods and Marshalls, because it's all the same company. Right? Gives you this illusion of Choice. There are two shopping centers in town, so like a 45 minute drive from my house, they have all three of those stores in like, I don't know, half a mile radius. As if we needed all three of those, you know, because they're the same company. Sometimes it's things like that or like, okay, well, you know, Gap and Old Navy and Banana Republic, like, they're all the same company. Most people know that stuff by now. But where it gets so confusing is when you go into the few remaining big chain stores we have and you still think you have a lot of choices in terms of the brands you buy. Because it is true. If you go to the laundry detergent aisle, it is literally an entire aisle because there are so many brands to choose from. And Lisa, as I was researching this, I was getting progressively more and more agitated. So I'm going to try to keep calm while we're doing this. But it turns out a lot of brands that we think of as different from one another are kind of low key, the same. And it seems like there's just like five companies in the world or something. I don't know, maybe 10. We gotta get the oil companies in there too, the weapons manufacturers, but there's not that many. There's a lot less individual companies than you think, I guess is what I'm saying.

[C]

Some of the ones that seem separate still have connections.

[B]

I know some of these, like, you know, a while back we did an episode about shoes and who really owns all of these, like heritage shoe brands. And then you're like, oh, almost all the shoe companies are owned by two companies at this point. And then it gets even more complicated because it's like, oh, but like that one is owned by a parent company that is a combination of Shein and this mall real estate company. But they operate under this other name when they work together and they're the owners of those brands. But then Shein also owns pieces of these other brands. Then you're like, oh, is everything Shein? Like, it will make your brain explode. Yeah, it really will. So, okay, I'm just going to go through some companies here. Some of the things, some people might hear some of these brands and be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense to me. I think some of them were really surprising. Lisa, you chime in and tell me when you're surprised here or like when you learned this. One of the biggest ones is Unilever, and they did last year, about 53 to $55 billion in sales.

[A]

Unilever's code of business principles forbids the company from making any donations that support

[B]

specific political parties or candidates.

[A]

So there's no direct line between Unilever and Trump or anything.

[B]

Maga. That doesn't mean that they aren't advocating

[A]

for the president and this administration in other ways, which we'll get to in a moment when we talk about one of the brands that Unilever owns,

[B]

according

[A]

to Open Secrets, which is a great resource for seeing where companies are donating their money from a political perspective. There are really no significant donations even being made by employees towards specific political parties.

[B]

And I will tell you, the list of brands that this company owns is so massive and global, I can't even list them all here. So I tried to pick ones that you and I and possibly the listeners would know. So first off, when it comes to condiments, they own Hellman's, the mayonnaise felt like that one would be relevant to you because mayonnaise choice is something people are very passionate about. Right. But they own another mayonnaise brand, too, which is Sir Kensington's, which, like, I literally, Lisa, like a year or two ago listened to an episode of the NPR show How I Built this with the founders of Sir Kensington's, and they just seemed like these cool dudes who just mix up mayonnaise at home. But apparently now they're owned by Unilever, and I guarantee 99% of their customers do not know this.

[C]

Yeah, they were considered, you know, to be the alternative and more sustainable and a better company. And now it's the same.

[B]

We're going to see a lot of that on this list. I mean, this was like, heartbreaking for me in some of these. They also, in terms of condiments, they own Coleman's, which I just used some Coleman's dried mustard this week and some chili. And they own Knorr, which is only maybe really important to you, if you like to make spinach dip as much as I do and use the packet of the vegetable soup if you know, you know, in terms of food, they own Ben and Jerry's, which I think this is one. I'm sure you have seen conversations like this going around, Lisa, because the people who the original Ben and Jerry, they're literal people. They are profoundly progressive in terms of their values. They were bought by a subsidiary of Unilever that also owns Magnum, I think ice Cream. So it's almost hard to trace the direct path to Ben and Jerry's, but trust me, Unilever owns them.

[A]

Now, as I mentioned earlier, Unilever is not directly donating money to political campaigns or candidates or parties, but they are engaging in behaviors that could be seen as, and really are supporting very specific governments actions and political stances. And that becomes very obvious when we talk about Ben and Jerry and Unilever. So Ben and Jerry's has been engaged in an ongoing lawsuit with Unilever that goes all the way back to 2021, when Ben and Jerry's pulled its products out of Israel. And this freaked out investors who sold their Unilever stock.

[B]

Well, Unilever was like, okay, we've got

[A]

to work around here, what we're going to do. Because remember, Unilever owns Ben and Jerry's. I'm sure that when Ben and Jerry sold to Unilever, they thought things were going to work out differently. But alas, Unilever is not giving them the freedom that they expected. And so when Ben and Jerry's made the decision to no longer sell in Israel, Unilever was like, hey, whatever, we own this brand. What we're going to do is license the brand, its recipes, its packaging, all of that out to a different manufacturer, a different company in Israel that will then make Ben and Jerry's for sale in Israel. And so that turned into a. Another lawsuit. At the same time, back in 2021, there's beginning to be this concern, this uncertainty, that Unilever would continue Ben and Jerry's social mission. And at that point, Ben and Jerry's had pledged $25 million in payments to various groups and organizations. And this has been another ongoing source of friction between Ben and Jerry's and their parent company, Unilever, with the company itself saying, like, hey, we don't want to be political at all. Which of course we know being apolitical is really being political, especially in a situation like this. In 2024, things intensified between Unilever and Ben and Jerry's as the parent company made Ben and Jerry's pool post, speaking out against the genocide in Gaza along with anything that was anti Trump. And this continued in 2025. Unilever has a plan to spin Ben and Jerry's off as its own company. And in that case, perhaps Ben and Jerry's could take back some of that autonomy. But I. I suspect that that will not be the case because still, Unilever will Be in one way or another, controlling Ben and Jerry's.

[C]

Yeah, I can't remember which one, but Ben or Jerry has left and whichever one's left, I think it's Ben.

[B]

I think so.

[C]

Is is currently fighting to regain control because he's mad that they were trying to silence some of their activism because, you know, that that is important to them as a company and they were supposed to still have more control than they seem to have.

[B]

Yeah, it seems like they got scammed a little bit. I also, for some reason Reddit keeps showing me posts from the ice cream subreddit and I keep reading them, so it keeps showing me more. Even though I like I'm lactose intolerant, I'm vicariously enjoying reading people's reviews of ice cream. These ice cream heads in the ice cream subreddit, I mean, they are experts. If you need ice cream opinions, you need to go to the subreddit. And they are all saying that Ben and Jerry's has been really lacking a lot of innovation and quality for the past few years. And that is definitely the result of that sale, for sure. People say it's not as good as

[A]

it used to be.

[B]

When I was a teenager, Ben and Jerry's was the most luxurious ice cream you could ever buy. And it was absolutely my favorite. I haven't had it in a long time. But there is something really, like, sad to me about this. Like, it makes me sad because they were such a cool brand and they were major innovators in the space and they were very different than any of the other ice cream you could buy at the store in every way. The packaging, what the brand stood for, their activism, and the quality of what you were going to get when you bought it. So that one was really disappointing. Unilever also owns Boost, which I know is like an insure, kind of like protein drink kind of thing. They also own Liquid iv, which is another one that I thought maybe was like a startup. I'm sure it was, and it got acquired. But I think that's one you think of. Yeah, that one, I feel like that's one that you think of as like a, you know, a single standing brand. Right. So that one was a little surprising to me. Now, when you go to the laundry aisle, talk about thinking that you might have an illusion of choice here and it being very much an illusion. They own all snuggle surf, Persil, and this was very crushing for me. Seventh generation. That seventh generation ownership is in partnership with another big company, SC Johnson, which we'll get to also. So this one's almost, like, confusing to unpack, but it's sort of like, for me, it was like, where were you when you learned that Seventh Generation wasn't some cool, independent, sustainable brand? It was very painful for me.

[C]

Yeah. Unfortunately, the green movement getting popular meant that all these big brands were like, oh, we need to have sustainable brands. And instead of making their own, they bought out the ones that were spread small and have existed for forever.

[B]

Totally. I mean, I see that even happening, like, in the past couple years when, like, probiotic sodas have become, like, a thing. And Pepsi bought Poppy, everybody. Every other soda company or beverage company was like, we're gonna make our own prebiotic soda. They just jump on these things. I think what often happens is, like, these brands get pretty rapidly get, like, insidified because they're owned by these parent

[A]

companies who are less invested in the

[B]

product itself and the relationship with customers. And more like, this is just another revenue stream for us that we need to optimize, and so the quality goes down. And that's why you get people on the ice cream subreddit saying that Ben and Jerry's has fallen off, you know, because probably soon Liquid IV will somehow have half as much electrolytes in it or something. You know, they'll fig. They'll figure out something. Personal Care, I thought was really interesting, too, because there are a couple brands on here that I was really shocked by that I also thought were either more. I don't know, more like premium brands or were indie brands. So Axe, I knew, was probably, like, owned by some evil company, Dove. I think Dove is interesting because Dove is one of those. They've gotten a lot of goodwill through their advertising campaigns in this century, like, you know, embracing, like, real women's bodies, et cetera. But then Dove is just another brand owned by a mega corporation. Dermalogica, Kate Somerville, Noxima, Paula's Choice. I put Pepsodent in here because my husband used to use that brand of toothpaste when we met Shea Moisture, Vaseline, and Schmidt's Naturals, which is a deodorant brand. I think they maybe make soaps and stuff, too. That's another one that was, like, an indie brand. People probably think when they go to the store and buy Schmidt's Naturals instead of Secret or something, that they're making this, like, sustainable ethical choice, and they're not.

[A]

Okay, what else do we have here?

[B]

Okay, that is all of Unilever. Were any of these surprising to you, Lisa?

[C]

I think at this point, I Kind of knew all of those. I've done these deep dives, and I think my boycott with Nestle kind of made me realize how much this happens. Because to boycott Nestle, you have to be watching their press releases because they buy up small companies all the time. They bought Garden of Life several years ago. They got on, like, a health kick, and they started buying up vitamin and supplement brands. They bought Haagen Dazs. That one broke my heart.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And now on the other side, they did sell off a lot of the candy brands. So candy that I couldn't eat for decades, I was like, oh, I can buy.

[B]

I know the candy is okay now. But meanwhile, like Garden of Life, I took multiple vitamins from the Garden of Life line, you know, so then I was like, oh, great, now what am I gonna do there?

[A]

You're right.

[B]

They really did go on this health kick, which was trendy. That was trendy of them. They really do follow these trends and gobble up these brands. So it's sort of like, I don't know, you can't, like, set it and forget it with what the brands you buy. Like, you periodically need to ask the Internet.

[A]

Who owns this?

[B]

I had this moment a couple weeks ago where I just started. Even before you and I had started working on this episode, I started sort of spiraling about how everything is, like, five companies now. Because I was just reading an article about how Stumptown, which is like a coffee. A coffee brand from Portland, which was bought, like, years ago by private equity, is now owned by this company called Keurig Dr. Pepper. And I was like, wait, there's a company called Keurig Dr. Pepper? So Keurig and Dr. Pepper are one company and they own Stumptown in Peet's. And then I looked it up and I was like, oh, my gosh. They own, like, Snapple and all these other coffee brands and Yoohoo and Hawaiian Punch and just Canada Dry and A and W and just. I don't know, probably like 75% of the beverages at a grocery store are owned by Keurig Dr. Pepper. They even own that juice brand, Mott's, which I used to drink the Mott's apple juices when I was a kid. You know, like, that's another, like, mega conglomerate that you would just never even knew existed if you don't do, like, the due diligence of looking it up. Also, there's just something too ironic about Keurig also owning, like. Like, coffee companies where they don't use pods. I can't explain it, but it's very sad. Yeah.

[C]

Think of these companies as companies that are like innovating and that's how they're getting new products. No, they're just buying other people's stuff.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[C]

New ideas now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, it's dark, but it's true. There are no new ideas anymore. Like, or at least they're not funding finding new ideas. They're waiting for someone else to make the come up with a new idea and then buying them up. Yeah.

[C]

Let them see if they'll fail, let them take the risk, and then when they do, well, they buy them up.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Totally. Or if it's like in the world of like clothing and cosmetics and whatnot, maybe they won't buy the company. They'll just steal all of their ideas.

[C]

You know that too. They like to do that.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, it's. I mean, I am always like a massive advocate for small businesses for so many reasons, but one of those reasons is that that all of the innovation in this world at this point is coming from small businesses. Don't let these big tech bros tell you that it's all coming from Silicon Valley or AI it's not. It's coming from humans. Okay. So another big company that I did mention that partially owns seventh generation with Unilever is SC Johnson. Now, compared to Unilever's 55 billion in sales in 2025, SC Johnson is tiny, only $13 billion in sales in 2025.

[A]

And SC Johnson and son is a

[B]

great example of like, oh, you know,

[A]

I'm just like trying to clean my home. And I'm indirectly supporting MAGA by doing that.

[B]

So unlike Unilever, S.E.

[A]

johnson Son actually has its own PAC Political Action Committee. And it's called, appropriately Enough, off the S.C. johnson Son pack. And you can literally see the biggest donors to its pack on Open Secrets.

[B]

You can go look right now.

[A]

The company also directly donates to this pack. And total pack donations per election cycle aren't wild.

[B]

They tend to be about 4 to $500,000. But 2/3 of this money is donated to Republican candidates.

[A]

And in the grand scheme of campaign finance, this is not that much. But to really draw the direct line between SC Johnson and Trump, you need to only look as far as the company's CEO and chairman, Herbert H. Fisk Johnson iii, who was appointed to the President's Council of Advisors on Science and technology in two 2019 under President Trump. His net worth is approximately $5 billion. And as far as where H's political values lie. He was one of the biggest donors from Wisconsin during the 2024 election cycle, donating more than $1.6 million to Republican candidates. And I have no doubt that other members of his family are donating as well.

[B]

Despite being smaller than Unilever, SC Johnson

[A]

seems to own most of the cleaning aisle in most big box stores.

[B]

They own Windex and Drano, Shout Scrubbing Bubbles, Glade, Airwick, Raid Off, Ziploc, and two brands. I mean, I know you already know this, Lisa, so I'm like, like, preaching to the choir here. Two brands that many of you probably, one, think are a more sustainable option, and two, you probably think of as competitors because you're probably choosing between the two of them often, and that is Mrs. Meyers and Method, which were not always owned by this company, but now they're both owned. And I don't know about you, Lisa, but a lot of times if I do go to a place like a Target or a Walmart, and they have always that section of, like, the more sustainable cleaning products. It's those two brands and Seventh Generation.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so many times you're choosing between Method or Mrs. Meyers. Well, they're. They're the same company. Illusion of choice. Okay, next is Procter and Gamble, which I have been boycotting since I was a teenager because they were so notorious for animal tattoo testing. Even bigger company here, $84.3 billion in projected revenue for 2025.

[A]

And Proctor and Gamble has its own pack, which raises the question, like, why do these mega corporations have political action committees of their own?

[B]

It's so weird to me, I will

[A]

say in the positive column for Procter

[B]

and Gamble, they donate pretty evenly from

[A]

the package to Republicans and Democrats. They also, and I want you all

[B]

to be to know this is not turning into a Procter and Gamble fan account at all. And I'm not saying you should go buy things from Procter Gamble at all. But another thing I noticed is that

[A]

they have actually taken a really strong stand about sticking with their DEI policies, which is pretty brave, I guess, in

[B]

a world in a time where so many companies like Target have moved away from dei, have just like, you know, rolled over for the Trump administration.

[A]

And they have been. They have been speaking out pretty loudly against Trump's idiotic tariff policy. Once again, not a Procter and Gamble Stan account.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just want to, you know, be real

[B]

with you about what this company does

[A]

from a political perspective, but, man, is this a massive company.

[B]

I swear, they seem to own almost entire aisles in any grocery store or discount store because they own Tide Gain.

[A]

The number of conversations I see happening

[B]

in the laundry subreddit where people are talking about Tide versus Gain. Don't worry, you're buying the same thing, guys. Downy, Cash, Cascade Dawn, Febreze, Mr. Clean and Swiffer. They also own two diaper brands, Pampers and Loves. They own Always, Tampax, Bounty, Charmin and Puffs, Head and Shoulders, Pantene, Olay, Old Spice, Herbal Essences, Safeguard Secret. That Aussie shampoo line which I used to use when I was younger. It really messes up your hair. Do not use the Aussie stuff. What else? Tula, Gillette, Braun, Venus.

[A]

I mean they're like owning entire aisles in stores.

[B]

They also own Crest, Oral, B? Vix, Pepto, Bismol, Metamucil. It's wild. It's like if you went to, if you and I went to Target today cuz we were like, we're not going to buy anything, but we just want to do reconnaissance.

[A]

I feel like we would go into

[B]

most of these aisles, Lisa, and even though they would be.

[A]

It would seem as though there were hundreds of products there.

[B]

I bet they would come from three companies.

[C]

Yeah, there might be one or two sprinkled in that are still independent, but almost all of them are by these companies. It's.

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

And it could be like in the cleaning product, style, health and beauty, dental care, whatever. It would be like the same thing over and over again. I didn't even, because I didn't want to totally lose my mind. I didn't even get into the food companies. But I want to be clear, in the world of food, it is the same thing. It seems like everything is craft now or something.

[C]

Nestle. Yeah, it's just a handful of companies again.

[A]

Yeah, it's wild. A different one that has come up a lot over the past couple weeks. Weeks, Months.

[B]

As we have, unfortunately, like for those of you who don't live in the United States who are listening to this, Lisa and I have the unfortunate privilege

[A]

of living in the United States in

[B]

2026 with an insane Nepo baby idiot as our president. Very incompetent. And so we get to get to be afraid that somehow we're going to invade Greenland, which is. I can't even believe that's a thing we have to say out loud. And one thing that came up out of this that was actually really eye opening for me is one of the big supporters of Trump, slash a big supporter of this ridiculous idea of acquiring Greenland is Ronald Lauder, and he is

[A]

the billionaire heir to the Estee Lauder

[B]

companies, who did about $15 billion of. Of sales in 2025. So of course you hear that and you're like, okay, Estee Lauder, I know that that's like a department store brand, so I'll just stay away from that. But then you dig in deeper and you realize, go into a Sephora, go into an Ulta. And this one company owns a substantial portion of the brands that are in one of those stores. So they own La mer, Clinique, Origins, Dr. Jart. 1. That was personally upsetting for me, the Ordinary, because I've been using their products for years. They used to be an independently owned company with really great, great quality, and everything came in glass bottles. So it was like a more sustainable option. Well, they were bought by the Estee Lauder Company, so now I can't use the Ordinary anymore. Of course they own Estee Lauder. They also own Mac Bobby Brown, too. Faced Smashbox, Tom Ford, Beauty, Jo Malone, London. Here's a fancy brand that I think is going to surprise a lot of people because we tend to think of this as an independent brand, too, which is Le Labo. Very fancy. If you want like a 200 bottle of perfume, just know it's coming from the same evil company. Gosh, what else?

[A]

Here?

[B]

Aveda, Bumble and Bumble. These are two brands that I also thought were independent. They are not. And the thing is, like, if you go to the makeup aisle at the drugstore or you go to a place like Sephora, there's a lot of other consolidation of brands there as well. And I bet we could go to Sephora and maybe everything in there would truly be owned by, I'm going to say, five companies more generous than if we went to Target and walked down the cleaning aisle.

[C]

Give them some time. They'll do the same.

[B]

Yeah, they will. They will. And also, just, you know, FYI, Sephora is owned by lvmh and the chairman of LVMH is Bernard Arnault, who is

[A]

a massive Trump supporter.

[B]

He was even at the inauguration. So don't go to Sephora either. You know, there's like, duh. And we're telling you all this not so you freak out and give up and, like, go on, like, some sort of, like, Amazon shopping spree right now to cope with it, or go on Shein or Temu or just go to Target anyway to feel. To feel alive or whatever. But to tell you that we know that this is complicated, but step One is like knowing who owns what, where your money is going and then slowly starting to fix that.

[C]

Well, there's a reason that they don't want us to know that they all are the same company. They want us to think they're all different.

[B]

They do. I mean, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So just us realizing, oh, they're all the same is power. Like, we need to know that all these billionaires are just taking everything and that we need to stand up against that. If you say you're anti billionaire, you need to know this stuff.

[B]

You do need to know this stuff. And I'll tell you, when I found out the Ordinary was owned by Estee Lauder, I was just like, not this now too. What am I gonna do? And I had this like freak out for a few minutes where I was like, what am I gonna do? Yes. I'll just never put lotion on my face or something again. And I will tell you what, there are other like minded people out there who will help you figure these kinds of things out. Like, Lisa and I are going to give you a bunch of examples and advice today. But like, when I found this out about the Ordinary, I went to the ordinary subreddit and somebody had already started a mega thread that was every single Ordinary product and people's recommendations for alternatives.

[A]

Like, what an amazing act of community.

[B]

All these different people were coming in there and talking about it and giving advice and like, I know this stuff is hard, but I promise that if you look out into the world and ask the questions, someone you know might

[A]

be able to help you, someone you

[B]

don't know might be able to help you, the answers are out there.

[C]

This is the positive side of social media.

[B]

It is. Yep, yep.

[C]

Somebody's probably already done this work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, I. This is like a smaller thing, but I have celiac disease, so I can only eat gluten free bread, which is 1 expensive, 2 usually disappointing, and 3 comes in a lot of plastic. And I was like, man, I guess

[A]

I'll just like never eat bread products again.

[B]

And late last year I was scrolling through the gluten free subreddit. I have a fascinating life, as you can see. And someone was talking about how they had gotten a bread machine and they were making gluten free bread in it. And I was like, what? So I got, I thrifted a bread machine. There's so many of them. There are bread machines at every thrift store. You're just not looking for them, but they're there, I promise.

[C]

And small appliances are always Being donated.

[B]

Always so many. If you've ever Faye bought a brand new mini waffle iron, please don't do that. They're always at the thrift store. That's like currently the thing I see the most of. Anyway, so I thrifted a bread machine and I started looking up recipes and I did buy a gluten free bread machine recipe book and I have been

[A]

fine like perfecting different gluten free recipes for the past few months.

[B]

I make a loaf of bread every week. Week. This week I made golden millet bread. It was amazing. And I'm like, oh, I'm not using

[A]

all this plastic now.

[B]

It's like I'm having a better product, better bread. I'm saving money and I'm using less plastic. And it's all thanks to people talking about finding alternatives and like crowdsourcing what they know. And I'm really grateful for that. And I think if I can solve the quandary of gluten free bread, I know that I can find a different moisturizer.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much to Lisa for spending some time with us this week. She'll be back next week to share her advice for better options. But if you're impatient, which I get, she's already written it out for you and it's shared on substack. I'll link that post in the show notes. If you just can't wait to get a start on changing up your shopping habits, I get it. I know it. And while you're there checking out Lisa's list, give Lisa a follow. Also, I think next week I will get the episode started by unpacking some of the big food megacorporations. Because as I was editing this episode,

[B]

I was like, okay, you know what?

[A]

We do need to talk about food.

[B]

It's really eye opening too.

[A]

Like, my word, the illusion of choice. It is such a massive. It's a massive illusion.

[B]

Okay, we're really just like, you know,

[A]

like I said, there's like five companies out there or something. It's pretty wild. So we'll talk about that more next week. Back in the early years of Clotheshorse, every time someone showed up to say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, it really made me feel, I don't know, like, embarrassed. Like, how could I be so naive to think that I or we could change anything, it would literally shut me up. And that's actually the point of statements like that. They are conversation enders. That's why it's important for us to be like, nope, I'm not letting that shut me up because you know what happens when we continue the conversation beyond that point? Oh yeah, awesome stuff happens because we start to imagine a better world together and then we can begin to see what we have to do to get there. I don't know about you, but I can't take another year like this year. So we can't give up. Change has to start now. And it has to start with us. Thanks for listening to another episode of Closed Source Written, Researched, Edited, Hosted all the things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty as always, if you liked what you heard, please leave a Rating A Review Subscribe Tell a Friend let's get more people to listen to Clothes Horse. If you'd like to support my work financially, there are numerous ways you can do that. You can find it in the show notes and you can find it in my bio on just about every social media platform. Lastly, but never, of course leastly, thank you so much to my other half, Mr. Dustin Travis White, for our music and our audio support, and for helping me trap cats before dawn on rainy Thursday mornings in March. All right, I'll talk to you all next week. Bye.