← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 257: There IS (more) ethical consumption under capitalism (part two) with Lisa of Retro Housewife Goes Green
02:31:56
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Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that still gets riled up every time I hear Keurig Dr. Pepper. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 257, part two of two that dares to declare why, yes, there is more ethical consumption under capitalism. And for this exploration into changing up our habits regarding where and when we spend money, I am joined again by Lisa Sharp of Retro Housewife Goes Green. Every time boycotts and economic blackouts come up on threads, I see Lisa dispensing great advice about how to vote with your wallet by making different choices. So I knew that she was going to be the perfect guest to break this down for you last week in Part one, which, seriously, if you have not listened to, you have to go listen to that part first. We talked about how and when boycotting is effective and how shifting up our spending habits is really an exercise in progress, not perfection. And then we unpacked some of the big companies that create an illusion of choice in terms of cleaning products, laundry detergent food, and skincare. We also talked about how these companies are having a political impact here in the United States. Now, in part two, Lisa and I are going to share our recommendations for more ethical consumption. After that, I'm going to walk you through my own hierarchy of decision making. And before that, as promised last week, I'm going to break down some of the mega corporations that are controlling a large portion of the grocery stores here in the U.S. but before we get started, I have two things to tell you. One is that I now have a post office box. Some of you were reaching out to me, asking me where and how to send me mail, and I can't. For many reasons, I cannot give out my personal home address. One, Dustin would divorce me. And two, we've had weird situations over the past couple years of people figuring out where I live, showing up, leaving notes in my mailbox, messaging me to tell me that they saw Dustin mowing the lawn. Like, weird things like that that are kind of a violation of my boundaries. So I have a post office box. Now, I'm not going to read the address out loud to you in this episode because you probably don't have a pen in your hand right now, but I will put that address in the show notes and it is at the bottom of the page@CloseHorsePodcast.com like it's in the footer and it's always there for you. So if you need my mailing address, that is where you can find it. And I can't wait to start collecting all this sick mail you're all going to send me. So get on it, get some stamps, get a pen, get to work. And speaking of work, that's the other thing I wanted to just remind you, is that everything in the merch shop is 50% off. For podcast listeners using the promo code, the priceisright. All sales are going directly to spay and neuter the colony of 12. Well, really 14 feral cats that Dustin and I have sort of inherited. So here's an update of where we are now. Last week, I told you we have somewhere between 12 to 14 cats. It's definitely going to be 14, because the two males that have been, like, hanging around lately are. Seems like they're, like, living here now. And this is just kind of how it works. Like, we live surrounded by farms. The majority of them are Amish farms. And, you know, they have. They like having cats around to. To keep mice and other pests out of the barns. And so they're cool with the cats being there, but they're not, like, caring for them. They're certainly not doing tnr. And the cats pass through, they stop by, there's food, here they stay. So we have 14 cats to deal with out there so far, four have been TNR'd in the last two weeks. We can only take two per week. That's the policy of the clinic, which is fine. Going to be an ongoing project. The first week, we trapped pj, who is a black cat, and he's one of the first cats that arrived here as a kitten. And he's actually kind of like my buddy. He lets me pet him, and he follows me around outside when I'm doing housework, and he talks to me and stuff, and we talk a lot about possibly bringing him in the house. So PJ got neutered, and alongside him, Baby Jessica got spayed. We call her Baby Jessica because one time she fell down in our well. Not into water. It's more like a weird, I don't know, underground chamber that houses the machinery for our well. So it's dry, but it's pretty deep. And Dustin had to climb down a ladder. We put a ladder down there, and he climbed down to get her, but then she was not into that, being picked up by him. So then I had to climb halfway down the ladder so he could sort of pass her to me like a football, and then she could explode out of my arms up onto the lawn, and she was saved. So Baby Jessica is a girl. She got spayed. That was great. We have four females in this colony of 14. So there's one down, three to go the next week. You know, the people who run the clinic where we're taking the cats to get fixed, they gave me a bunch of advice about how to do the trapping and they said we could put the traps out overnight as long as they were definitely going in the morning. And it wasn't really inclement weather, a long period of time, we didn't forget about them, things like that. We don't have predators or anything in the yard, so it would be okay. And so what we had done the previous week is gotten up well before dawn, put the traps out and sort of sat around and waited for the second week of trapping. We were like, let's try it at night. And specifically because we knew that the three other remaining female cats, they kind of hang around together on the side of our house and they seem to be way more active at night and we really, really wanted to trap them first. So we put out two traps and I am not kidding you, it was like 11 o' clock at night. We trapped two cats within 30 seconds. It was wild. One of the cats we trapped is baby Jessica's son, Tim. So we were like, okay, Tim's going tomorrow. In the other trap we had one of the female cats, Susan. And so by the way, Susan is so beautiful. She is a long haired calico. She is stunning and super tiny. One of the cutest cats I've ever seen in real life. Also, Susan is named after friend of the pod and cat lover Susan Massey, who has been a guest here on the podcast before talking about her experiences working at the Clinique counter. So Susan, if you're listening, I just want you to know the most beautiful cat in central Pennsylvania, don't tell Brenda, has been named after you. So it's 11 o' clock at night and we've already trapped two cats. And they said, Dustin, like I feel bad leaving them out in the traps overnight for like, you know, probably six or seven hours until we get up because it is raining. And we had wrapped the traps in several layers of towels so they would be sort of warm and dry. But it just, I felt bad about it. And so what we did is we brought the traps in the house, we brought them up to the spare room and the intention was to put the cats into these carriers that have beds and towels in them that are set up for them to recover in after surgery. So we put Tim in there, no problem. He laid down the bed, he was freaked out, but he was kind of like oh, this is cozy. So we go to put Susan in the other carrier, and it's going okay, but then at the last minute, she escapes. So we spend the next, I don't know, 30 minutes we're both, like, deliriously tired trying to catch Susan in our spare room, which was a waste of time. And she's knocking over plants and climbing, literally climbing up walls. She's like, spider Man. And I'm like, okay, we're not going to catch Susan. Here's what I think we should do. We should set up the trap in here overnight with food over in it. And perhaps during the night she will get in there, and we'll have her in the morning. And if she doesn't get in it, we'll deal with it in the morning and we'll put the trap outside for someone else to get into because we're taking two cats tomorrow. We have two appointments. And I kind of only half slept that night because I was keeping one ear open to see if I heard the sound of the trap closing, which would mean we had Susan. Well, that never happened. And so the next morning, I took the trap outside. We immediately caught another cat, Quigley. So we had our two cats to take to to be neutered. Meanwhile, Susan still in the spare room. And what makes it even more frustrating is this week there are no appointments at the clinic. They're closed for tnr this week. So it means that Susan's living in our spare room for two weeks. And what we're doing is it's actually, she's been okay. Like, she is using the litter box in there. She doesn't really want to hang out with us, but she seems to be like, okay, it's warm, it's dry. The there's food. This might be safe. Like, she's being pretty calm. She does cry here and there. And we go in there and sit with her. And I would love for us to be able to socialize her. I don't know if that's gonna happen, but who knows? We're putting in the time and effort to see if it can. But regardless, what we have been doing is we have the trap set up in the spare room, but it's zip tied open so no one can get trapped in it right now. And we are gradually moving the food every time we feed her deeper and deeper into the trap. So next week, when it's time to go, we put her food in there. She's gonna go in there and eat it, and we'll have her. And so she's definitely going next week to be spayed. So that would actually be amazing because, one, we wouldn't have Susan living in the spare room anymore. But more importantly, that would mean we only have two more female cats outside to trap. And there's a lot of amorous stuff going on in the yard right now. So it's, like, really important that we get these two asap. And they are going to be the hardest. They're, like, the smartest cats out there, and they are the most nervous around humans. And so it's going to be the ultimate challenge. Um, but that's where we are with TNR. Four down, only 10 to go, but we're going to get there. And it just feels good. Like, I can see the cats who've already been fixed, like, they're having a good time outside. Like, there's this weight that has been lifted from their shoulders. They're just hanging out and playing, and they don't have to worry about trying to go out there and mate or wander across the road or get into fights or anything. And that. That just feels so good. Like, it's worth getting up before dawn, being outside freezing, driving 30 minutes, driving 30 minutes back, driving 30 minutes again, driving 30 minutes back once a week, because we're, like, changing their lives and making them better. So once again, any merch that you buy over the next month is going to be directly going to the Lancaster Pet Pantry, where all the cats are getting their surgeries. I also want to thank all of you who've just, like, sent donations. That's amazing. This is definitely an expensive project, but, like, once it's done, hopefully, knock on wood, cats keep showing up. It's going to be done, and I am looking forward to that. And the last thing I just want to say is the reason I'm telling you about this is one transparency around where money from merch sales are going. But more importantly is I want to demonstrate that our roles as concerned citizens, the radical things that we can do every day that are part of being a person who cares about this planet, cares about our community, sometimes they can be as simple as taking care of feral cats. You know, that right there is something really meaningful. And I don't want any of you who are doing things like this in your immediate communities to ever feel like that work is not seen, that it is undervalued, because I see it. And. And I think it's incredible. And there are so many ways that all of us can make a difference every day, and that's just one of them. Right. So keep up the good work. All of you who are doing things like this in your community that might not seem as glamorous as like being the head of a movement, right? Being interviewed on television, whatever it is that seems like, oh, wow, that's what we're supposed to strive towards. Just you being out there, being a good person and taking care of the living things in your community is a really big deal. And I'm proud of you. Last week, Lisa and I talked about the illusion of choice that we're all experiencing in grocery stores and big box stores around the world. Essentially, a few mega corporations own all of the brands we see. So even though we think we're buying, say, method, and that's a better, more ethical choice than say, scrubbing bubbles, we're actually giving our money to the same company who is then donating money to Trump or other Republicans. And part of this illusion of ch is that brands that we consider indie or eco are actually part of the same unethical, polluting conglomerates. And when it seems like there's a whole bunch of options out there, but it's really just a few, that doesn't benefit anyone. Well, except for the executives and CEOs and shareholders in these companies because they get to control the quality of most of the things we buy, they get to control the pricing of most of things that we buy, and they get to control the working conditions for the tens of thousands of people around the world that they employ. And so we've given up a lot of our control over the world around us by essentially, I'm not saying that you and I allowed this, but, you know, the world has allowed these companies to just become bigger and bigger and bigger until it's almost, but not quite impossible to avoid them. And that just sets us up for all kinds of messed up things, right? Food is no different. And what I found as I dug into some of the big food companies is that, well, they often own entire categories of products, like for example, root beer. Don't worry, we'll get to it. And just like the cleaning and personal care and cosmetics megacorporations that we shared last week, these mega corporations for food also include these like quasi indie and green brands in their portfolio. So I decided to look into some of these food mega corporations. And this is by no means an exhaustive list of these companies because there are a few more, but this is definitely something. I don't know, maybe I need to do another episode where we just dig into food mega corporations because, wow, I'm going To tell you, as I looked into all of this, I was like, holy shit. Five companies essentially own almost the entire grocery store. And that is very terrifying for me because it's bad enough when just a few companies own the products we use to clean our house or clean our bodies, but when they're controlling the food that we eat, meaning that they can also control the price and the quality and what's available, that is so terrifying to me. So. So let's just take a look at a few of these companies. And like I said, maybe this needs to be another bigger episode in the future. If that's something that you would be interested in, drop me a line. Just so I know. Or like, what's a company you have questions about, let me know. So one of the first ones that came to mind for me was the Craft Heinz Company. Right. Immediately in the title, we're like, oh, Craftsman. We know that's a brand of food. Heinz, another pretty big brand of food. Oh, they've joined forces. Okay. Well, The Kraft Heinz company did almost $30 billion in revenue in 2025. And you know, when we think about the vast majority of the things that these companies sell being under $5, maybe under $3, that's a whole hell of a lot of stuff that they've been selling. Right? And it makes sense when you see how large the portfolio for the Kraft Heinz company is. Now, one thing I'm going to tell you now is that for all of the mega corporations I'm going to share with you in this episode, I am not listing every single brand that they own because the list would just go on and on and on and you would fall asleep and I would lose my voice. I tried to just pick brands that you might recognize. And if you want to see the full list, just go to any of these companies websites. They always have in the top nav something that says brands. Click on that and you can see the full list. So Kraft Heinz Company owns. Well, obviously anything with Kraft or Heinz in the title, right? Like the macaroni and cheese, like the ketchup, but also Oscar Mayer, Oreida Classico, Velveeta, Capri Sun, Boca Burger, Kool Aid, Jell O Philadelphia Cream Cheese, Lunchables, Maxwell House, Gray Poupon Bagel Bites A one. You know, the steak sauce, Baker's Chocolate Clausen, which is a pickle company. Cool Whip, Country Time, Crystal Light. I drank a lot of that as a kid. Lee. And parents AKA the worst Assure Worcestershire sauce. That's always a hard word. Mio, which are like Little drops of electrolytes and flavoring that you can put in water. Miracle Whip, which I'm just going to tell you. My. One of my best friends growing up was Shannon lynch. And when I would spend the night at their house, I would always make Miracle Whip and iceberg lettuce sandwiches to eat while they ate their regular non vegetarian dinner. And it was something that her dad talked about for decades. He would be like, oh, you still still eating Miracle Whip and iceberg lettuce sandwiches? I haven't in a long time and it does sound kind of good. What else? Stovetop Shake and Bake, Primal Kitchen, which gives indie brand vibes, in my opinion, like a lot of mega corporations, which I have so many questions about why this exists. Kraft Heinz has its own PAC political action committee. And for all of these PACs, sometimes part of the donations are coming from the company itself, but the rest of the donations are coming from private citizens, often employees of the company. Which is just so weird to me and feels, I don't know, it feels uncomfortable to me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just don't think there should be an opportunity to donate to political causes through your job. It just, it just feels strange to me. Well, in 2024, the Kraft Heinz PAC donated about $336,000, splitting those donations pretty evenly between Democrats and Republicans. So they're not like explicitly maga. But I would also argue that in this day and age, giving 1 cent to Donald Trump or any other Republican candidate out there is a pretty serious political statement. Right? Because, I mean, look at what they're doing. Okay, all right, next is General Mills. In 2025, they did almost $20 billion in sales. They own Betty Crocker and Bisquick and Bugles and like seriously, three quarters of the cereal aisle. Chex, Cheerios, Cinnamon Toast Crunch, Cocoa Puffs, Cookie Crisp. Although I typed Cookie Crips in my notes, which is pretty funny. Golden Grams, Kix, Lucky Charms, Monster Cereals, you know, your Count Chocula, your Booberry, Total Trix, Wheaties. This is not all the cereal brands that they own. I got tired of typing cereal brands, but a lot of different brands of cereals. They also own Dunkaroos, Fiber One, Gardettos Gold Medal, which is like a flour company. Flour meaning baking flour, not, you know, the beautiful rainbow Treasures of Nature, Green Giant, Nature Valley. I've eaten so many Nature Valley granola bars in my life. Old El Paso, Pillsbury Progresso, and in my opinion, the worst pizza in existence. Totino's But General Mills also owns some brands that we think of as, like, natural, better, maybe sustainable. We definitely think of them as more indie brands. You know, like Annie's, right, Cascadian Farm, Blue Buffalo, which is like a nice brand of pet food. Epic. They make meat bars. I guess that's how I would describe them. Haagen Dazs. Well, it's complicated. They own some parts of Haagen Dazs, but another evil company also kind of owns Haagen Dazs. The stuff gets so complicated. They also own Larabar. And like a lot of these big companies, General Mills has its own political action committee. And in 2024, the PAC donated 357,000 DOL dollars, with 75% of those donations going to Democratic candidates. That's great, but don't you wish it was a hundred percent? No, actually I Wish it was 0% because I think it is so weird that these companies have political action committees. It feels, I don't know, yucky to me. All right, next is the Campbell's company who did $10 billion in sales in 2025. Now, something I want to call before I list all the things that Campbell's company owns is that one pattern I noticed as I was looking through these big food mega corporations is that many of them are experiencing really pretty significant declines in sales in recent years. And that's a function of a lot of things. I think it's people moving away from a lot of these prepackaged foods. I think it decline in the quality of these prepackaged foods and like, not only a decline in quality, but an increase in prices. I think that a lot of food has essentially become fast fashion ified where the quality has declined, but the prices have gone up. And it's just disappointing for everyone. Like, the value's just not there. The problem with all these food companies is I can survive without buying clothes from shein. I don't need new clothes all the time. There's ample secondhand clothes I can find out there, or I can wear the clothes I already have. But with food, like, we kind of gotta have it and we have to have new food all the time. We can't, like keep re eating the same food, you know, because once we eat it, it's gone well, it changes forms, but into something that we should not eat. And so food being fast fashion fied is terrifying to me, and it has a negative impact on all of us, even if none of us ever buy processed foods. And I'll talk about that more in a few minutes. The Campbell's company is definitely another one of these food companies that has been really challenged from a sales perspective over the past few years. Also, all these food companies are being impacted by tariffs less because they're importing the and more because the tariffs are actually driving up the prices of the packaging for this food. Right now, with this extremely stupid war in Iran, plastic prices are skyrocketing. So anything that you eat that comes in any kind of plastic, that's about to get more expensive, because guess what? You need oil to make plastic. So we're probably gonna see packaged food prices increase even more. And, like, probably pretty soon it's like a double whammy of oil prices going up and these tariffs, plus, you know, these companies are always trying to be more profitable every single year. So the Campbell's company owns Rowls, which I thought of as like, an independently owned brand. Goldfish, Lance, Fun Fact Hutch, my one cat. His pseudonym is Lance Crackers. Snyder's of Hanover, Prego, Pacific Foods, Pepperidge Farms, Swanson Kettle Brands. Late July. Another brand that you would think is like, some sort of, like, indie sustainable organic food brand also owns SpaghettiOs. Of course, Campbell's has its own pack. But unlike the other mega corporations I've listed so far, Campbell's does not contribute to its pack. It's solely for its employees, which I'm like, what? I just don't get it. In 2024, that pack donated about $44,000, which, like, listen, I would love for someone to give me $44,000, but in the grand scheme of campaign food, campaign finance, that's like, nothing. 94% of the donations to that pack went to Democrats. I think that says something about a pack that is only employee contributions. That's all I'm saying. All right, let's take a detour into the world of beverages. PepsiCo. Last year, PepsiCo did almost $94 billion in sales. Now, obviously, Pepsi owns a ton of beverages. You know, Pepsi, of course, Bubbly, Aquafina, Gatorade, Lipton, Life Water Evolve, Luza, Mountain Dew, Ocean Spray, Poppy Propel, Pure Leaf, Rockstar, Sobe, Tazo, and SodaStream. But PepsiCo also owns a ton of food companies. Bear, which I like. B, A R E. They make a lot of, like, dried fruits. You think of them as like a. A smaller, sustainable, organic brand. They also own Captain Crunch, Cheetos, Doritos, Fritos, Cracker Jack, Gamesa, lay's, Miss Vicky's, Quaker, the oatmeal company near east, who does make my favorite Couscous, Pasteroni, Sabra Siete. Another organic small business brand, PepsiCo, I want to say, bought them last year and it was this like, epic, like $500 million acquisition. They also own Smart Food, Spitz, Stacy's Sun Chips and Tostit. Now, once upon a time, PepsiCo also owned Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and some other restaurants under its Yum Brands, but that has since spun off into its own company. Now PepsiCo, humongous company. And it of course has its own political action committee as well. In 2024, it donated one, and it was pretty evenly split between Democrats and Republicans. Once again, it's a pretty big statement to be giving half of your PAC donations to Republicans. Like, I'm sorry, but, like, things are more black and white than ever when it comes to the differences between the two parties here in the United States. Do I think the Democratic Party is perfect? Do I think it is as far left as my values are? Hell no. But it is still light years away from what Republicans are literally doing right now in this country, and that is inarguable. That said, PepsiCo has also really bent the knee to Trump and Maga world. In 2025, PepsiCo cut its DEI initiatives, abandoning workplace representation targets. It also replaced some of the oils it was using in snack foods with avocado and olive oil. And it also removed artificial ingredients from some of those snacks. This was done in partnership with a MAHA initiative, meaning in partnership with RFK Junior. Coincidentally or perhaps not coincidentally, in 2025, the Federal Trade Commission dismissed a lawsuit against PepsiCo that alleged price fixing and collusion with Walmart. Basically, PepsiCo was in an illegal agreement with Walmart that ensured that Walmart would have the lowest prices on all of PepsiCo's products, which is obviously a very long list. It's not just beverages, it's not just snacks. It's all kinds of foods. You could say, okay, well, maybe PepsiCo just gave Walmart better pricing because Walmart is such a big company. So they gave them like a discount. And that's actually not what happened at all. Rather than giving Walmart a price break to make those lower prices happen, what PepsiCo was doing instead was raising wholesale prices for smaller retailers. And that meant that those companies could never match Walmart's pricing. And that would include small businesses, convenience stores, local grocery stores. Basically every other place you could shop other than Walmart was going to have higher prices on that epic list of things that PepsiCo sells. Now, the FTC dropped that lawsuit, but it seems to be the burden of proof was there, and it was. There was no doubt that this price fixing and collusion happened. And so the general opinion out there is that, one, this would have not happened if Trump had not won the presidency, that PepsiCo would have lost this case and probably paid an epic fine. But perhaps because they bent the knee to the Trump administration in all these different ways, the case was thrown out as a favor. And I have no doubt that walmart was also part of getting this case thrown out. And this is just a great example of when we have consolidated all the wealth and all the brands into just a few companies. You can have two mega corporations, Walmart and PepsiCo, shutting out every other business out there so that we have even less options in the future. Because these food companies, these mega food companies, what they have been doing is gobbling up food brands, just buying more and more and more and more, so they start to own everything, and then they get to control what we pay for, what we buy and what we get to buy. It's really scary, right? This is just such a great example of why we need to divest from these mega corporations. Okay. You know, I get riled up about Keurig, Dr. Pepper, and I found out that Keurig and Dr. Pepper were one big mega corporation that owned so, so many beverage brands. I found that out because I was reading an article in the Portland subreddit, and of course, we got to bring up Reddit in this episode, right? And it was an article about how the location of Stumptown Coffee on Belmont in Southeast Portland was being closed. And this location of Stumptown has. Is like a landmark for my memories, Right. I used to live, I don't know, 10 blocks away from there. And I would put Dylan on the back of my bike and we would ride over there so I could get a coffee and just kind of be out of the house. And Dylan was sort of like a little bit of a celebrity at that Stump Town, because Dylan was going through a really well one. Dylan was, was and is so super cute. But also, Dylan was really into breakdancing, which I did confirm with Dylan a few days ago that they still love breakdancing. And so the employees at Stumptown would always save a piece of cardboard and put it out on the floor so that Dylan could break dance, bring joy to all of the customers, or I hope most of the customers, I hope, at least didn't irritate them that much. I guess I should say, while I got to drink some coffee, it was so cute. And so this is a place that lives. It just is so important in my memories. You know, my friends would come and meet me there. It was just, I don't know, it was a place I got to go out and feel like a normal human being despite being single parent. And hearing that it closed was really, really sad to me. And as I'm reading this article, I find out, well, that's because the current owner of Stumptown, Keurig Dr. Pepper, is closing a lot of these locations. Keurig Dr. Pepper. You know, Keurig, the machine with the pods, all the plastic waste. I would consider Keurig one of my arch nemeses, although I'm not really sure they're aware of me. And perhaps to be arch nemeses, both parties have to be aware of one another. I don't know. Well, Keurig Dr. Pepper did almost $17 billion in 2025. And yeah, Dr. Pepper's in the name. They own a lot of soda companies. Dr. Pepper Seven Up, Crush, Canada Dry, Sunkist, Squirt, RC, Big Red. They also own A and W Root Beer, IBC Root Beer, and Stewart's Root Beer. Like they're owning the root beer world. They own a lot of other beverages too. Clamato, Snapple, Hawaiian Punch, Core Hydration, Yoohoo. Buy Venom Energy, Nantucket Nectar, Roses, Real Lemon and Mott. In terms of coffee, they own Tully's, Green Mountain, LA Cologne, Caribou Coffee, Stumptown, A much longer list beyond that. And they have partnerships of like, I don't know, like co ownership of Polar Vita, Coco, Evian, C4 Energy, Electrolyt and Twinings. And all this to say if you go to a grocery store right now and walk down the beverage aisle, it's essentially owned by PepsiCo, Keurig Dr. Pepper and Coca Cola. That is everything on the shelf. Because even in all the brands I just listed that were owned by Keurig Dr. Pepper, there were a lot there that I thought of as like indie brands. Not necessarily like ethical or sustainable, but like smaller businesses. Nope, they're all owned by one company. And so you might walk down a beverage aisle in your standard grocery store and see hundreds of options, but really you're. You have three options. So Keurig Dr. Pepper, of course has their own political action committee. They donated $404,000 in 2024. The vast majority of this money went to a beverage lobbying organization with only 22,000 going to political candidates. Like many of these mega corporations, Keurig Dr. Pepper tries to stay neutral on political issues, which is problematic when a company employs so many people and has so much control over what we eat and how it is made. Food and workers rights are political issues. And anyone who says otherwise, who's just trying to be neutral, is probably hiding something. I feel like, especially now more than ever, silence and neutrality are really complicity. And that's what I think of these companies who are like, oh, we just try to split our donations evenly or we don't take a stand. By not taking a stand, you are taking a stand. We're going to round this out. Even though there are many other mega food corporations we could talk about by talking about a banger, and that is Nestle. Nestle had a sales about $110 billion in 2025. And if you recall, Lisa was blocked by Nestle on Twitter. Now, Nestle could be its own episode. We've talked about Nestle in past episodes. It is such a terrible company. We're talking about slave labor, child labor, stealing water, colonialism, greenwashing, plastic pollution, and so much more. And I can't go into all of that here. This episode will literally never end. So to get started on your Nestle hate journey, just go look at the Wikipedia article for Nestle and scroll down to controversies. It's just the beginning of a long journey. You're welcome. Well, Nestle owns anything with Nestle in the title. They also own Nespresso, which we've talked about here in the past. They own so many animal food companies. They own Alpo, Baker's, Beggin, Beneful Beyond, Busybone, Cat Chow, Dental Life, Anything Purina, Fancy Feast, which I'm gonna need one of you to talk to Hutch, AKA Lance Crackers about this because he is a really picky eater and the only thing he will eat is Fancy Feast. And despite our efforts at trying every other food that exists out there, he rejects them all. He will also accept Friskies, which is really unhealthy and is also on this list. Yeah, all these food brands, these pet food brands are owned by Nestle, along with Dog Chow, Merrick and Tidy, Cats, like. Okay, now I have to stress out about where I buy cat and dog food too. Yeah, welcome to late stage capitalism. It's a good ride, right? They also own Boost, Blue Bottle Coffee. That's one that I thought was like, independently owned or at least. Well, now that I say it out loud, I figured it had a lot of VC funding. Coffee Mate, Perrier, San Pellegrino, DiGiorno, Drumstick, Gerber Hot Pockets, KitKat, Lean Cuisine, Stouffer's Toll House. And as we mentioned in last week's episode, they also own some health brands, including Garden of Life, which made my favorite vitamin D spray and Vital Proteins. Of course, Nestle, Mega Evil. And of course it has its own pack. Now, it only raised $96,000 in 2024 and most of that went to Democrats. But it like doesn't even matter in this situation because I just want to reiterate this. Some of these companies are not throwing a lot of money directly into the pockets of MAGA or Trump, but all of them are spending a lot of money on lobbying efforts and we cannot see where the money goes after that. It is absolutely being used to push back on labor laws and wage increases, environmental regulations, tariff policy, and even food safety regulations. All of these companies have faced lawsuits and controversies related to a diverse range of issues from pollution to workers rights, wage theft, water and land use, price fixing, and so on. It is also incredibly terrifying that a small handful of companies are providing the vast majority of foods that are available for purchasing in grocery stores and convenience stores around the world. Especially because we know that these companies plan for constant increases in profitability year after year in perpetuity. And that means, just like as we've talked about with Fast Fashion, that food quality declines and workers are paid less and less. No good comes from the constant pursuit of financial growth. And furthermore, with so few companies involved in a substantial portion of the food supply, that means that they are also dictating how farmland is used, how farmers are paid, what pesticides are used, how water is allocated, and ultimately the quality and pricing of all of the fresh, non processed foods and produce are also dictated by these companies. Remember I talked about last week how essentially half the groceries purchased in the United States are purchased from one company, Walmart. And that means Walmart has this outsized control of what farmers are growing, how much we're being charged for food, and what food is available. We see it once again earlier in this episode when I talked about how they were colluding with PepsiCo on pricing. So few companies making and selling most of the food we eat means that they have control over all the food we eat. And even the pricing we encounter at restaurants is impacted by these mega corporations. We're also seeing a few very large companies having incredible impact and control over what it is to be a worker. Much like how Fast Fashion has this halo effect of essentially everyone being underpaid. A few companies controlling food, it's a similar thing, right? And in this case, it's impacting farmers. It's impacting people who work on those farms. It's impacting people who deliver from the farms to the factories. It's impacting the truck drivers who transport the finished products to. To the grocery stores. It's impacting grocery store workers. It's impacting people who work in these food factories. It has just a major impact on so many people who are just doing their jobs right. And then, of course, it impacts us because, you know, these companies control essentially what we get to eat, when we get to get it, how much it costs and the quality of what we get to eat. So it's kind of scary. And I don't tell you this stuff to freak you out, but more to say like, hey, okay, we gotta do something about this, because this isn't okay. And it's a problem that's just gonna get worse. And in our conversation, Lisa, are gonna talk about that more like how we are kind of lucky because we can see pretty clearly we have like, you know, the. The 2020 vision of hindsight to see how, for example, people shifting all their spending to Walmart had this massive impact on people all over the world. We can see that now. We've seen it play out. We know what it looks like, and we can kind of pump the brakes on this, maybe slam on the brakes and change what happens next. And to me, that is a very powerful position because 20 years ago, people didn't know yet how these things could go wrong. And we have this benefit of knowledge. That's not something I want us to squander because we're lucky. I know it's hard to believe there's something that we're lucky about right now, and that's that we can see what happens and we can change what happens next. What can we do? Well, ultimately, the solution here is way more complex than even when we talk about fast fashion, right? Because we can opt out of fast fashion, right? We can't opt out of food. Some of you, I'm sure, are saying, maybe you're even firing it up an email to me that's saying, well, you could just stop eating processed foods. And sure, that's an easy solution if you live in a community with ample access to inexpensive, fresh food. And that means that these stores and markets and farm stands, they have to be reachable without a car. And it means that people with limited mobility also have access too. And of course, everyone somehow magically also has time, space and skill to prepare these fresh foods. And that. That is just not the world we live in right now, according to the USDA. More than 6% of Americans live in food deserts. We're talking millions of people. And that means they live in places with limited access, access to supermarkets. The reality is that processed foods made by these mega corporations are easy to find at convenience stores, gas stations, and even from vending machines, even at dollar stores. They are also relatively inexpensive and easy to prepare and consume. A lot of people don't know how to cook, A lot of people don't have time to cook, and therefore processed foods are how they survive. I will just say that these mega corporations, they benefit from widening wealth inequality and limited access to fresh foods. So the best advice I can give you here is to pick the companies that are absolute deal breakers for you. Like, I refuse to buy anything from Nestle except I'm still backed into this corner where I have to buy Fancy Feast for Hutch AKA Lance Crackers. Otherwise there is nothing that Nestle makes that I cannot find elsewhere. And that is a really good start when boycotting food companies. To be honest, I also get off a little lucky here, and I say lucky in quotes, but I have celiac disease, so I can't eat most of the foods manufactured by the other mega corporations. And so I have been sort of forced by my body to cook almost all the meals I eat all the time. And often I'm cooking that stuff from scratch or really, really close. I also work from home and have the time to do that. I also, well, I don't necessarily have the time, but I'm forced to because I want to be healthy, right? I still eat Annie's gluten free stuff. I always eat Pacific Foods cartons of soup when I'm sick. And I really like Rao's pasta sauce. The good news is that I do the best that I can, right? I buy my groceries from locally owned businesses and grocery outlets. I grow a lot of the produce I eat in the summer, and I try to buy from local farmers as much as possible. It's not perfect, but it's progress. And that is my advice to you when it comes to divesting from these food megacorporations. Another thing I'll just say is that in the world of constant food company acquisitions and sales, it's good to do a periodic checkup on the brands you like. A simple Internet search of who owns Blank is a good idea. You don't have to do this every day, not every week, not even every month, but maybe once a year. Because these days the goal for most food startups is to sell to one of These mega corporations, the grocery world is so brutal. It's really hard to make money. Like, I work with a couple small food brands, and they have to pay to have shelf space in a grocery store if they even get accepted by the grocery store. And they have to give the grocery store a certain amount of free inventory every month, and they make a really low margin on what they do sell. So it is just so hard to run a successful food company in this day and age. The founders of these brands are so ready to get a payday and walk away because they're always like five seconds from bankruptcy. So you want to check this stuff periodically. Now, earlier this week, listener Sarah emailed me to tell me about a recent visit she took to the Celestial Seasonings factory. I kind of wondered, who owns Celestial Seasonings, you know, the tea company, Red Zinger, Sleepy Time. We all know these, right? Well, the backstory of Celestial Seasonings starts with some hippies, takes a detour into a cult. And then in 1983, it was bought by Kraft. Kraft planned to sell it to Lipton, you know, another tea company. But Bigelow, a third tea company, stepped in and stopped the sale by successfully suing, using antitrust laws. Then Celestial Seasonings was bought by private equity in 1988, and then it went bankrupt. No, actually, it was one of those times where a private equity company totally didn't run a brand out of business. And instead, in 2000, celestial seasonings, which was like, doing pretty well, merged with natural food Mega Corporation, Hain Food Group. And they own tons, tons of brands that you see in any natural foods section of a grocery store. And that's where Celestial Seasonings has been ever since. To be honest, the story of Celestial Seasonings is so interesting that it could be its own episode. It is quite a story. But Kraft, you know, owned Celestial Seasonings for a while, tried to sell it to Lipton. Kraft has bought and sold so many brands over the past 40 years, like planters, Tombstone Pizza Lenders, Bagels, and Duracell, the battery company. Yeah, okay, that makes sense, right? That's just a few of the brands that has bought and sold over the years. And this is just like how the mega corporation food industry goes. So once again, you want to do these checkups regularly. General Mills has bought and sold so many brands since the 1980s, including Yoplait, Red Lobster, Olive Garden. Oh, and then, you know, Parker Brothers, the game company. Oh, play doh. Kenner, you know, who made Strawberry Shortcake, Lionel Trains. But wait, it gets weirder. Talbots, Eddie Bauer, man. Eddie Bauer has changed hands so many times. Good Lord. The point is that mega corporations are always being mega. And in their constant pursuit of increasing sales and increasing profitability, year after year, for the rest of time, they're going to be gobbling up more and more companies and then discarding them when they don't work for them anymore. That means it's up to us to keep an eye on them by being educated, concerned citizens. And that's going to mean some Internet searches, some disappointing news, and some changes in our habits. That's a great transition into my conversation with Lisa, where we're going to share some alternatives to mega corporations. We have a lot to cover, so let's jump right in. So, Lisa, last year, I mean, we know people are. Some people are great on social media and some people are the worst on social media, and some people are just annoying on social media. We have the experience last year when I started talking about, you know, reduce, refuse, resist skipping Amazon and Target and Walmart on Instagram. And by the way, being very real with people like, you don't have to do it perfectly. Like, here are some alternatives. Someone literally said to me in the comments section, I assume you must smell really, really bad because how could you be possibly buying soap and toothpaste without going to Target, Walmart or Amazon? And one, that was really rude. But two, I was like, wait, what? People don't know there are other places to get these things. I'm sure you saw this, too. People were like, melting down. And I was like, is it because I am older and from a rural area that I remember a life without Walmart and Target? I don't know.
- [56:43]
B
I don't know. It was really interesting to see. And I still occasionally see them filter in. And I'm like, you still haven't figured it out?
- [56:52]
A
I know, I know. It's still a year later, there might be people whose teeth are falling out because they haven't found toothpaste yet. So we're going to talk about that today. Now, one thing I want to get this conversation started with is you've been listening to us talk so far, and you might be like, what's the difference between me buying Tide at Walmart versus at my local grocery store? Because they're both the same evil company. And I get it, this stuff is complicated. But once again, I like to create this, like, hierarchy in my mind of, like, best option to worst option. And to me, if I were going to buy Tide, which I can't, it's a migraine trigger. And a lot of other reasons if I were going to buy Tide. To me, buying Tide at a local grocery store is still superior to going to Walmart and buying Tide because at least some of that money is staying in my community. It's very rarely is the option perfect. Even with my gluten free bread maker, I still have to go out and buy flour and a lot of times it comes in plastic and I have to accept that, you know, like I'm not letting perfection stand in the way of progress. So I do just want to caveat that. But actually Lisa and I are going to talk about some better brands and some better places to shop that aren't any of the big companies we just talked about. So I thought we could start with alternatives to Target, Walmart and Amazon because apparently this is very challenging for people. Lisa, what are your number one choices instead of those?
- [58:24]
B
For food I really like, other than fresh food and stuff, I often get either at Aldi or our local grocery store. But online Thrive Market is one of my favorites. They're still a small brand. They've kept di. They were really good with their employees during the early parts of the pandemic. They're very mission driven and they have a lot of the same brands you would find on Amazon or at Whole Foods. And they it's basically like a full online grocery store except for the only like perishable things they sell have to be frozen since it's shipped. But that's still going to greatly shrink whatever you happen to buy in person. Even if your only option is Walmart and their prices are decent. They have their own brand now that's really good. And the prices are pretty comparable to things you'll find locally. They have household products so you can get a lot of your needs met just from ordering from them. And the way it works is kind of like Costco. You have a membership and that gets, you know, better prices for you. And they recently started taking Snap.
- [59:41]
A
Oh wow.
- [59:42]
B
And they.
- [59:43]
A
That's so cool.
- [59:45]
B
They give free memberships to a lot of families that can't afford them. It's a really good option that I think a lot of people don't know about. And I've shifted a lot of my spending to them. I actually got an order yesterday, I
- [60:01]
A
need to check them out. I mean I live in a paradise for groceries right now. But if we ever moved away from here, I would have to rethink my options because in a lot of cities you're really limited. But hopefully we'll stay out here for a Long time. I also. I've been using Grove Collaborative forever for, like, cleaning and personal care products. So, like, that's where I get my toothpaste. I use the David's toothpaste, but they have other brands, too, and they have zero waste toothpaste and all kinds of things. That's where I get a lot of my cleaning stuff. Now they do carry Seventh Generation, but a lot less than they used to.
- [60:37]
B
And Method.
- [60:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [60:41]
B
But their own brand is probably one of the cheapest on there. And I bought a lot of their stuff. I really like their concentrate cleaners.
- [60:49]
A
Me too. That's what I mostly buy from them these days. Yeah, they're great. And they smell good. They do the work.
- [60:55]
B
They smell good without being overwhelming scents. And you know how you have lots to store? Like, I have a small house and I like having just, like, the little concentrates I have to store, and I just refill my bottles.
- [61:07]
A
Yeah, that's the other thing is they come. The concentrates come in these little, little tiny glass bottles, and you just pour them into a spray bottle, fill it up with water, and go. I'm a huge fan of Grove Collaborative for all of that stuff. And they also, just as an FYI, they carry things like vitamins. They carry some pet stuff, some kids stuff. Their assortment is constantly growing, and there are expensive things on there, definitely. But the Grove stuff is usually, like, they're a brand is the most affordable. And I have found all of it to be pretty good quality.
- [61:43]
B
And they do sales pretty often. And a great time to look at them are around holidays. They'll get like, some smaller brands and some seasonal things and even, like, some good gift ideas. I've gotten Christmas gifts there and stuff. They're great for, like, stocking stuffers.
- [61:59]
A
It's true. I always give my daughter, I mean, not just exclusively, but gifts from Growth Collaborative, like reusable spray bottles and cleaning concentrate. And I don't know if they just. Just those things are nice gifts, you know, especially for someone who's a young adult.
- [62:16]
B
I know Target. One thing people tend to really like is a lot of their seasonal things that's become trendy. And you can still get that with Grove. They make seasonal bottles and scents and
- [62:28]
A
all that they do. They have a. Like a pine, like a Christmas tree. One that I do hoard a little bit because it's my favorite. So when it Christmas time, like, that time of year comes, I'm like, all right, I gotta stock up. I want this Christmas tree scented cleaning concentrate to last me till June,
- [62:47]
B
Yeah. Thrive had a fall scented, like pumpkin spice kind of scent for dish soap. And I bought a ton of that especially. They had it go on sale as the season was over. And so, like, I just bought a ton and my husband was like, why does our house still smell like fall?
- [63:06]
A
Because it's great.
- [63:07]
B
It's almost spring. Because it was cheap and it smells good.
- [63:11]
A
It smells good. Yeah. I actually like, I prefer the more like fall winter fragrances that, from most of these lines to the summer ones because they tend to be more flowery. So I do like stock up on them like you were saying, for the cleaning concentrates. It's such like a little vial, it takes up like no room in your cabinet. So if you were like, I really love pine and it's on sale, then get a few, you know, and have it and save money and be stocked up. So, like, this is. We are in no way being paid by Grove to talk about this. It's just I've been using Grove, I don't know, six, seven years now. And it's just made my life so much easier. And so for me not to go to Target, easy. Like, I don't have to, you know, and yeah, I don't stink because I can get toothpaste and stuff from Grove. Also, guys, don't worry.
- [64:01]
B
And they do have a subscribe option like Amazon, if that's something that people like from Amazon, you can subscribe to your cleaners and stuff from them.
- [64:10]
A
Totally. You know, and one thing I want to call out here is that sometimes skipping something like Walmart or Amazon or Target can feel extra stressful because it's easy to shop there. You think? Right? Like with Amazon, you can just subscribe and it'll show up at your house. You don't even need to think about it. I think for some people, they think that if you don't go to Target or Walmart, you're going to spend all day long going from store to store trying to get the things you need. And like now it's 20, 26, everyone. You can still get all of this stuff conveniently. And I'll tell you, there's something really nice about being like, I never waste my time walking around a Target because I certainly used to waste some time walking around a Target, you know, And
- [64:54]
B
I do think it saves me money moving stuff. So.
- [64:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, and. And then you impulsively purchase all these other things you don't need. So in a weird way, like shifting away from these, like, easier options probably saves you money and time. It's just the initial change of doing things differently can feel overwhelming. And then you never think about it. I love when I see people posting online like, I haven't gone to Target in a year and I forgot Target existed. I'm like, yeah, I kind of feel that way. Like, I drive by it and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. Target. I remember that place.
- [65:29]
B
Why?
- [65:29]
A
Oh, yeah, we're mad at them. That's right. That's why I don't think about them anymore. They just are, like, dead to me, I guess. But if you're not wanting to go online, there are. Like I was saying before, I grew up without Target and Walmart, and I certainly grew up without growth. Collaborative, thrive, market. You can get these things at your local grocery store. You can get some of these things at, like, cleaning products if you ever want A really. A really specific cleaning product. Like, I needed to get this spray for our carpet. We have carpet on the stairs and it. It's the only carpet in the whole house, and it's beige and my husband spills coffee on it all the time and nothing was getting it out. And I asked the Internet, how do I get coffee stains out of carpet? The Internet was like, fol ex. So I was like, what is that? I went to my locally owned Ace Hardware and they had two aisles of cleaning products of every variety. Both the brands, you know, from like, Target and Walmart, and then these, like, really very specific. You've probably never heard of cleaning products. And I was like, okay, this is a, like a life knowledge unlock for me. That's another resource for you, if you have those options. Lisa mentioned Costco. I'm going to throw that out there again. Costco is not the right fit for everyone. Not everyone has a Costco or a Sam's Club. Sam's Club, by the way, is Walmart. Anyway, Costco to me is significantly higher on my hierarchy of good to worst. But Costco can be an option for some people. It is harder when you live alone or it's just you and your partner. You don't have a lot of space. But I just throw that out there for people. I don't. I used to have a Costco membership. I don't anymore because I just found that these other options were better for me. Another one I'm gonna throw out there that I know not everybody has everywhere is grocery outlet. Which do you have Grocery outlet where you live? Lisa?
- [67:33]
B
No. We used to have something similar, but they closed several years ago.
- [67:37]
A
We didn't have. When we Lived in Texas, we didn't have them either. And it was just like I felt such a sense of grief every day, honestly. Because grocery outlets are like a franchise and you'll find them all over the place. So that means they are locally owned. It's a weird thing where they like to look for married couples to run it. That part weirds me out a little bit, but okay. And it would be challenging to do all your grocery shopping at a grocery outlet. It doesn't mean you couldn't. But they don't have everything but what they are. We love to go to grocery outlet every Saturday morning and see what's on clearance because sometimes they'll have really good, like, I don't know. I went through this brief period where I was really into the vegan Baby Bells for a while. I was living the dream. But they also have like, you know, we're vegetarians. They have like a lot of vegetarian stuff that's on sale and like, you know, health foods. But they are also a really good place for shampoo and conditioner and soap and toothpaste, sometimes even pet food. Sometimes they have grove cleaning concentrates. Not very often for a while. That one, Wild grass and neroli one or whatever they had a few years ago, I don't know if you remember, that was like a summer fragrance. They had that at the grocery outlet for a really long time. I think it wasn't very popular. But anyway, I throw grocery outlet out there too. I know that people. There's a lot of classism associated with shopping at a grocery outlet. I hear people call it the gross out. I've heard people make fun of people who shop there. Longtime fan of the grocery outlet. We had one in Portland, Oregon a long time before I'd ever been to another one and that one used to have. Once a month they would have wine tastings and my friend Raina and I would like go to this grocery outlet wine tasting and meet all the other weird people at the grocery outlet. It wine tasting. It was great. So I wanted to call that one out. We also can't forget about refilleries and zero waste grocery stores. And I love these because they, as PETA would say, they feed two birds with one scone because. Sorry, I've been waiting my whole life to work that into an episode of closed Horse. Here we are. Anyway, they're a great option because not only are these stores committed to providing you options that generate less waste, specifically plastic waste, so they're going to give you refillable glass or metal vessels or you can bring your own, which is awesome. Less garbage, less plastic. Major win. But these also are almost always small locally owned businesses, so you know that the money you spend there is going right back into your community. It's really easy in this day and age to find refilleries and zero waste grocery stores that are popping up more than ever, which warms my heart to no end. And the best way to find one is to just go open up your Maps app or do an Internet search for refilleries near me or zero waste grocery stores near me. Chances are you live pretty close to one. And if you don't, there are stores that allow you to purchase online and ship to you. So another thing for you to consider if you're like, I don't have anything in my area. I did want to shout out two businesses that I know well because I work with them. One is Black Cat Bulk Goods in New Paltz, New York and they sell groceries and locally grown produce and of course soaps, cleaning products, all refillable. Now you can order online and get in store pickup from them. But I feel like if you emailed Black Cat bowl goods and you said, hey, I heard about you on Clothes Horse, I would like to order something for shipping. I feel like they might, they might do that for you, so check them out. They also just have a really beautiful store and do really, really good work. Another one that does not currently have online shipping, but who knows, that could change in time, is in Yucca Valley, California. It's called the Green Roadrunner. And if you're out there, I don't know, taking your desert road trip, going to Joshua Tree, you should stop in there. They have all kinds of great stuff too, but like I said, these are just two in a growing network of zero waste grocery stores and refilleries all over the place. And often it is more affordable to go into a place like that and get the refillable version of something than to go buy a brand new product in a plastic bottle at the grocery store. You're going to have less options to choose from, but you're going to know that the options that are there are the best. And you're also going to know that the money you're spending is having positive impact. And I don't know, maybe we're feeding three birds with one scone here. Take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and Fashion Professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brands Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite plus. I just want to also add here on a personal note that right now Ruby is actually working with me to create a one of a kind, unique to me special dress that I will be wearing for all future clotheshorse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing Patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's slowfashion.academy Selena Sanders a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style, minimal carbon footprint. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade Yarn and notions for the color obsessed Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for Rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced, hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicauunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. cute little ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram. Utelittleruin. Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive, and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like, where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled? And if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com. Now, Lisa, now we're going to get into, like, your major area of expertise and talk about some alternatives that are not even about, like, necessarily where you shop, but the actual brands that you buy. So do you want to, like, kind of walk us through your favorites, your recommendations?
- [77:20]
B
Well, for, like, cleaning products, we talked about Grove and Thrive. Both have their own brands, and those are really good entry points. They're affordable. So if you're shopping from either of those places, those are really good options. But options that you'll find other places are things like Dr. Bronner is one of my favorite cleaning products. It's castile soap, and it's very concentrated, so it can be used for your body, your hair, and pretty much anywhere in your house in different amounts of concentration. And they have a website with tons of DIY recipes and stuff for how to use it. But one bottle will last you a long time.
- [78:03]
A
Yes, it really will. And don't use the peppermint on your privates. Don't do it. Okay.
- [78:11]
B
I like lavender for, like, body care. That's a good one. That's a good one. We also have lotion and toothpaste and several other personal care items. But their castile soap is a must. And I try and tell people you can clean most of your house with hot soapy water.
- [78:30]
A
You really can. That's what guys. That's what they used to do. Okay.
- [78:33]
B
Yeah, you. You fill a bucket with hot soapy water. Get a rag. You can clean most of your house, I promise you. And it will take you less time because you're not switching cleaners. A big reason we have so many products is because I needed to sell them. Not because we needed them.
- [78:49]
A
Totally.
- [78:50]
B
And the best soapy water you can make is Dr. Bronner's. They have seasonal scents so you can still get that, you know, dopamine hit from switching upsets and everything. Their brand is extremely ethical. The CEO won't take over a certain amount of money. I don't know the numbers, I'm not a numbers person. But they pay their employees well. They don't test on animals. They support a lot of good causes. They get a lot of their olive, it's an olive based soap from a Palestinian company. They're just overall a really good brand and they've been around for a long time now. People freak out sometimes and read the bottle.
- [79:38]
A
Don't read the bottle.
- [79:41]
B
It can sound really religious.
- [79:43]
A
Yes, that's what I thought for a long time.
- [79:45]
B
Yeah, it's an old hippie dude.
- [79:48]
A
It's yes, yes.
- [79:49]
B
Not Christian nationalism. It's a guy that actually probably more closely followed Jesus's teaching than the Christians we see these days. Just a hippie. And they have always kept his writings on there. He was a very eccentric dude. But they are very, very good company.
- [80:11]
A
Yeah. I actually, every time I travel, I take a bottle of Dr. Bronner's with me. Not a full size bottle. Cause those are massive. I take a little travel bottle. Yeah. Because it always comes in handy. I need to do wash out some laundry in the sink. I need to clean something like my suitcase or you know, something spilled in the hotel room, whatever. So I always bring that with me because it's super, super useful. I also wanted to call out Dr. Bronner's makes some really good chocolate. I don't know if you've had it, Lisa.
- [80:41]
B
Which is bizarre.
- [80:42]
A
It's so bizarre. But it's like slavery free chocolate. It's actually one of the few ethical brands of chocolate out there and they have one that has coconut in it. And I just like highly recommend it to everybody.
- [80:56]
B
Oh. Because everybody also always wants hand sanitizer. They also have hand sanitizer.
- [81:00]
A
Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah. And I did use the toothpaste once and I liked it. I'm just more loyal to David's. Right. Actually, I'm lying to you all. I usually use David's, but I got really hooked on this pink toothpaste in Japan that I use now instead. That comes in a metal tube. But the Dr. Bronner's toothpaste is pretty good. And I think they have like a cinnamon flavor, which is pretty good. I used to like anybody who ever went through a vegan punk art school phase in their lives, which of course I did, knows about Dr. Bronner's. Cause it was a fixture in like every group living punk house. Right. And I would use it. Cause like, that's what everybody used. And one day I was in the shower reading the bottle and I got really freaked out. I was like, am I somehow like funding like anti abortion activity or something by using this brand? I went and asked the Internet and I was like, oh, like you were just saying, Lisa, this is just like a real like Christian hippie dude who's legit. And I felt a lot better. So don't be swayed by the bottle. And it's iconic at this point.
- [82:02]
B
Yeah. Some ones that are still small for now. We'll see.
- [82:07]
A
Yeah, I know some of these that are on your list. I'm like, it's like, tick tock. They're gonna get bought, I bet.
- [82:15]
B
Drops if you like, like laundry. Like the pouches. That's a still a pretty good brand. They were bought up by a venture capitalist firm, but I've looked them up and they're more on the progressive side. I mean, like, as much as you can be as a venture capitalist firm, they tend to focus on more sustainable brands. And at least for now, everything seems to still be pretty good for that. Nelly's is a brand I really like because they still use a lot of metal containers for like their laundry products. And they're really cute. They look very vintage. And I have a vintage home, so that fits well with my aesthetic. The unscented company is a Canadian company and they're B Corp certified and they're women owned and they're really good for anybody that's got a lot of sensitivities or anything like that. They do a lot of very clean products. Dirty Labs is a good small company. Their dish soap's really highly rated.
- [83:25]
A
Interesting.
- [83:26]
B
That gets tested.
- [83:27]
A
Yeah. Have you used the detergent, the laundry detergent before?
- [83:31]
B
I haven't used the laundry detergent.
- [83:33]
A
That's what I'm using right now. I just bought it. I got it from Grove actually a couple weeks ago because they were. I usually use the Grove Collaborative detergent, which is pretty affordable and lasts a long time. But they were sold out. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'll try this Dirty Labs. And I was really skeptical because I was like, I don't know. Like, this has like tech bro energy. Like, I couldn't explain it, but I was like, I don't know. I actually think it might be doing a better job than the Grove stuff, or at least just as good of a job. And you use a lot less of it. And it comes in a metal bottle, just like the Grove detergents. So it's like checking all the boxes for me so far.
- [84:12]
B
Yeah. Ecos is another good one. They're a minority owned brand, woman owned, family owned, and they've been around for a really long time. That always makes me feel a little more comfortable. Like, if they haven't been bought out yet, they're probably not gonna be as much. Like whenever you see new ones come on the scene, like drops kind of concerns me because they've done some things that are a little trendy and stuff. And I'm like, well, they could get bought up. And you know, they are on a venture capitalist right now. They're known for selling the brands to bigger companies, but ecosystem around for a very long time. You see it in a lot of hippie stores.
- [84:56]
A
Yeah, it's a classic. Many of you have have seen this package before, even if you never bought it. It's. I was like.
- [85:03]
B
And it stayed the same for forever.
- [85:05]
A
Forever. Which to me is a good sign. Like you said, like some of these new brands, like, like Dirty Labs, I was like, I don't know, this might be like a weird evil company because it looks too trendy.
- [85:17]
B
Yeah. Force of Nature is one that I use a lot for disinfectant.
- [85:24]
A
Okay.
- [85:24]
B
I started using it because it's one of the few that is certified to kill neurovirus. Whoa, go back to earlier in our conversation. It's one of the only things that would kill it other than bleach.
- [85:34]
A
Okay. Good to know. Imagine now the next time you see talk to me, I'm going to be like, and now I carry Force of Nature with me in my suitcase too. Because now I'm like, oh, someone could get norovirus at any moment.
- [85:48]
B
It's a really interesting one too, because you make it yourself. You get these little capsules and you have this machine and it seems like it is a scam. Like, I read so much about it before because I'm like, this cannot be real. Because you put this little capsule that smells like vinegar into water and it makes some bubbles and does something and then it's supposed to be disinfectant.
- [86:11]
A
Whoa. I'm looking at it right now. I've never heard of this one. It does look like a scam.
- [86:17]
B
Yeah. It's not. They are certified by the CDA, CDC before RFK Jr and EPA certified and all that. They have the certifications to kill Covid neurovirus, all the major things. They are registered disinfectant, which means they have to kill some percentage of things. And it smell. It goes from smelling like vinegar to smelling like, very faintly of bleach.
- [86:45]
A
Interesting.
- [86:45]
B
And it's the same kind of disinfectant they use in hospitals, but the reason you make it yourself is because it degrades quickly.
- [86:54]
A
Huh. Yeah. I'm looking at the website right now. Fascinating.
- [86:59]
B
It's not caught on because you wouldn't want to buy a bottle of something that you have to use within a week.
- [87:03]
A
Yeah.
- [87:04]
B
Especially disinfectant. You don't necessarily use it that quickly. And so. And it has to be stored well and stuff, so they don't want to just sitting. You can't sit on store shelves. But it's pretty affordable once you get the setup. And it's very pet safe. I have asthma, so, you know, like, a lot of disinfectants are very strong and can trigger that. It doesn't trigger miasma. It's safe on way more surfaces than, like, bleach. And it's like a weird science project in your kitchen.
- [87:38]
A
It's. It looks. I'm really intrigued by this. It looks really like. I can't explain it. It looks like a scam. But it also looks like this definitely works. Like, everybody should go check out the website.
- [87:48]
B
It screams Maha.
- [87:50]
A
It does.
- [87:50]
B
But it's not. I promise. I did my due diligence. I looked at studies. The reason I learned about it is it's very popular in the community that still takes Covid seriously because it kills Covid, but it's very safe because you. If you're disinfecting things, what, you don't want to constantly be breathing, like, Clorox and stuff.
- [88:13]
A
Totally. I think I'm going to buy some of this.
- [88:15]
B
Lisa, I'll send you my link.
- [88:18]
A
Yeah, send me your. Send me your link. And honestly, Lisa, I'm saying this now, so I don't forget, if you have links for any of this stuff, send it my way. And we'll put it all in the show notes so people can support you when they try these things.
- [88:33]
B
Aunt Franny's another one that I'm pretty sure Grove sells.
- [88:37]
A
I. Yep. I. They have a lot of stuff. They have a really great pest powder.
- [88:42]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say they have cleaners and they have, like, an ant spray that I really like and this, like, jar that gnats get attracted to.
- [88:54]
A
It works?
- [88:55]
B
Yeah.
- [88:56]
A
Yeah, it works. And I'll tell you. Like, I know there's like this homemade chop you can make for fruit flies with like soap and water. It kind of works. I don't know what they're putting in the aunt fannies, but like you get like a thousand times more fruit flies really fast. So I always keep one of those under the sink unopened. Because when fruit flies arrive, you have to act fast.
- [89:16]
B
Yeah.
- [89:17]
A
Or they will like take over your whole kitchen and never leave. I've learned this lesson the hard way. But yeah, their, their ant spray is really great. It's like predominantly like essential oils. It actually smells really good. Like there's a lot of clove in it. It's nice and it's safe around pets. I've used that. I use their pest powder. When we lived in Texas, we lived in a really old mid century house where bugs could just like literally walk in from the yard. And so I would just put it around the perimeter of the doors. I mean, we just wouldn't come in. Yeah, but it's like non toxic to pets, so I like them. And we recently have. So I've been married to my husband for 10 years, but one of the biggest challenges was getting him to participate in housework. Not because he was unwilling to, but he's not the kind of person who's gonna be like, that floor looks dirty. I should go wash it. And so after years of trial and error, I was just like, hey, every Sunday you're gonna wash all the floors in the house. And he was like, okay. So he washes the floors every Sunday in the entire house, which makes me so happy. And he really wanted to. He really wanted to use Fabuloso to wash the floors, which is like instant migraine for me. And I did. I was like so excited when he first started washing the floors that I did buy him a bottle of Fabuloso. And I would be like opening all the windows, like hanging my head outside, like feeling sick. I bought him this Aunt Fanny's. I mean, first off, he could just be washing the floor with vinegar and water or soap and water. We know. But Lisa, I gotta motivate him here, so I have to buy him a floor cleaner. And so I bought him this Aunt Fanny's floor cleaner that is basically vinegar with some like eucalyptus. I swear, what it probably is, basically is vinegar water and Dr. Bronner's eucalyptus in one bottle. And he like loves it and it makes him feel like he's doing really important work. So I really like that. That product too.
- [91:20]
B
Yeah, of Course, making your own is going to be one of your cheapest. And obviously, you know, if you've been bought out by a big company, that's probably not gonna happen. Yeah.
- [91:32]
A
And if it does, you probably don't have to clean anymore.
- [91:35]
B
Yeah. Somebody else is not cleaning your house.
- [91:37]
A
Yeah, exactly. So wait, I have a question for you, Lisa. Well, look, something that I, I see a lot like on TikTok and Instagram is like people making content that is. It's really upsetting to me. I'm just gonna saying that where they are going into the bathroom, the toilet, the tub, whatever, know where this is going. You know where this is going. And they're using like three or four or five or like whole bottles of cleaning products to clean one thing. And I don't, I know it's bad and I don't understand it. What are your thoughts on that?
- [92:18]
B
How long do you have?
- [92:20]
A
I know
- [92:23]
B
I have many thoughts and I do not like those cleaning influencers. First of all, they're trying to get you to buy a bunch of products that they probably have links for. Second of all, that is so dangerous on so many levels. One of the most dangerous parts is many cleaners have ammonia, many have bleach. If you mix bleach and ammonia, you get chlorine gas. Chlorine gas will kill you, especially if you're in an unventilated house. You can also make like basically mustard gas. Like don't mix cleaners.
- [93:00]
A
Yeah.
- [93:01]
B
Especially like mass produced ones. They don't have to disclose every ingredient. Exactly. So you probably don't really know what all is in there. Most of you are probably not chemists and don't know what chemicals can and can't be mix. So don't do.
- [93:17]
A
Makes me so upset, Lisa, because I know it's dangerous and it's so incredibly wasteful. You do not need a full bottle of toilet cleaner to clean the toilet. But I'll see them putting a full bottle of toilet cleaner and then like a whole thing of some other cleaning product in there.
- [93:35]
B
This is also causing a problem because people now think their homes aren't clean or that there's like some moral attachment to loneliness.
- [93:44]
A
Yeah.
- [93:45]
B
And it's playing on guilt and emotion. And it's not just aesthetic. They want you to feel like you need to clean your bathroom eight hours a day. And I promise you, you don't. I love reading vintage homemaking resources and stuff. And we think of housewives in that time just spending so much time on their homes. It was very important how your Home was presented. That was a reflection on you. They weren't spending hours mixing chemicals in their bathrooms and they were getting a bucket of hot soapy water, wiping everything down and going about their day. My mom is an rn. I was taught to take germs very seriously and on how to clean versus disinfect. And she was also somebody that's very meticulous about housework. She never did stuff like that. And our house was extremely clean. It's just ridiculous. And I promise you there's no moral attachment to your house. You're not a bad person if your house is messy. You're not a bad person if your house is dirty. Yeah. Work on the cleanliness. That can be a health hazard. But if you have dishes in your sink overnight, nobody's gonna die. You'll be fine. And you're not a bad person.
- [95:19]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think some of us get that guilt, like exacerbated or created by social media by that kind of content. I think some of us grew up in households. Like, my mom was one of those people that if there was one dish in the sink, she like, could not handle it. And we cleaned our house way more than we needed to. And so I carry like that sort of guilt into my adult life where I'm like, we can't leave dishes in the sink overnight. Why? I don't know. We just can't. Right. Or like, my mom would wash the floors in the house and she had a full time job. She'd wash the floors in the house three times a week. We weren't allowed to wear our shoes in the house, which is very normal. That one's fine. But she had this rule about how many times my brother and I could go in and out of the house because she had this fear of flies coming in and then the house would be dirty. And I see. I'm sure that anxiety came from her mother. And so I think we have this responsibility to kind of shut down this weird cleanliness equals morality culture that is being passed down generation to generation. And then we have these influencers. I hate even calling them that on social media, doing all this weird like, cleanliness porn. Or my, my daughter and I call it cleanliness, virtue signaling and hygiene. Virtue signaling. Because there's also like, there's a whole subreddit that is just for people cleaning their bodies. And it is similarly disturbing where people will show you the entire wall of products they use in the shower, which will include shampoo and conditioner. Fine. Face wash. Sure. One soap that's for their armpits and their, like, upper torso. Another product that is for their butts, basically. Another thing that they use to wash their feet and then all the things they put on their bodies when they get out as part of that process. And I find that really concerning and hyper consumerist, obviously. But in those subreddits, those conversations really are like, oh, wait, you're not using a separate kind of soap for your feet. Then you're filthy. Give up. You know, people who are like cleaning their belly button three times a day with a Q tip. And I see that kind of stuff that's really bad to you guys don't do that. It's really like we were talking about earlier, sometimes social media can be this great thing. I think sometimes it is a bunch of people who have the same anxiety getting together and kind of like revving one another up. And that's not good either.
- [97:59]
B
Yeah, well. And I think a lot of the clinging stuff even got worse during the pandemic, which kind of ironic people thought, because this was a novel virus, knew that surface was where we're getting Covid. It's not. You're very unlikely to get Covid from surfaces. Covid is airborne. And so this hyper focus on hand sanitizer and cleaning surfaces seem to stick around. And it's missing that air is what we should be cleaning. You need to be opening up your house and getting fresh air in your house if you can afford it. An air filter, which also, side note, will mean you have to dust less often. And if you're like me and you collect things, dusting less often is great.
- [98:52]
A
Yeah.
- [98:53]
B
But we sometimes get hung up on something and then it just becomes a trend. And then at some point people like, why are we doing this? Nobody knows why. And it's just we're making more work for ourselves for no reason. And in the case of a lot of the cleaning Tiktoks and Instagram, it's just flat out dangerous. And we're forgetting part of why we started going to more natural cleaners is women that stayed at home were getting lung cancer and other health problems because of the chemicals they were breathing.
- [99:30]
A
Yeah.
- [99:31]
B
And so we started switching to these other products and now we're going backwards. But we're making toxic chemicals and are going to kill ourselves faster. And it's just. And yeah, consumerism is also a huge part of it because especially with TikTok shop, they put all these products that they're putting in their sink in their TikTok shop. And you think, okay, I need these 10 products to clean my sink. And you go buy them from them. So then they make more videos, so you buy more stuff. And they're going to use different things at different times because they're like, oh, well, that one's even cooler. And they make them different colors. And the ones that drive me the most crazy are where they'll mix them up and make like, this foam and then they're touching it with their bare hands.
- [100:19]
A
Oh, and.
- [100:23]
B
Oh, the chemical burns.
- [100:26]
A
I know, I know. I saw one the other day. It actually weirdly came up on Threads and I just had to close the app where someone was putting, like, all these different things in their toilet and it was foaming up to the top. And I was like, nope, I can't believe this is even allowed. Like, it made me angry. Like, this is. You know what? My. One of my aunts was a house cleaner for decades, and she developed really severe respiratory issues. She didn't smoke, didn't live near a factory or anything like that. And I can't help but think that it was related to all the cleaning stuff she was using because she was absolutely doing wacky stuff, like mixing bleach with ammonia, you know, so just. And also, I don't think. I don't know if you mentioned this, Lisa, but you do have an ebook of natural, like, DIY cleaning stuff.
- [101:17]
B
Yeah. And it's free and it's not 20 step process. And.
- [101:24]
A
Yeah, like, clean. Listen, sometimes cleaning is, like, really hits the spot. Like, you clean the bathroom and you're like, dang, I get to live here. This is great. But, like, also, do we really need to make cleaning harder, more expensive, and more time consuming? Because sometimes cleaning does not hit the spot. And you're like, I resent the fact that I have to wash dishes again, you know? Yeah.
- [101:48]
B
Just never ends.
- [101:49]
A
It never ends. That's the thing about cleaning that has always been frustrating to me, is like, I'm just gonna have to do it. Now let's switch gears into personal care products. Because, yes, I saw a lot of people last year in the conversation about boycotting Target and Walmart and Amazon fretting about laundry detergent and how they were gonna clean their dishes. But people were really worried about how they were gonna clean themselves. And there are actually a lot of great brands out there.
- [102:31]
B
Yeah, there's a wealth of small soap shops. I personally have, I think, five friends that own soap shops.
- [102:41]
A
Yeah, guys, soap is easy. Toss a pebble somewhere and you're gonna hit someone who's making soap.
- [102:47]
B
I feel like it really blew up during the pandemic. Everybody's like, I can't get soap. I'm gonna make my own soap. This is my new hobby now.
- [102:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I have made my own soap. And you know what, it's like, kind of fun. So that's an option too. But yeah, to me, soap is the easiest one. You can go to a craft market, a farmer's market, talk to your friends, look on the Internet, go on Etsy. All around you, there's. There's almost too much soap. So that's an easy one to check off the list.
- [103:19]
B
Yeah. And we talked about. Dr. Bronner's has a bunch of personal care products. Again, Thrive has their own brand of personal care products that are super affordable. I think Thrive or Grove has some.
- [103:36]
A
They do it. I will say that my one call out with the Grove personal care stuff, like the soaps and like deodorants and whatnot, is they always seem to be like mixing it up. Like, I used this 1:0 waste deodorant from them for years. It was the brand called, I think it was called Peach and it was like a metal tube. And then you would get the refill for it. So it's completely zero waste. And I really, really liked it. And then I got my husband into it and we were just getting the refills regularly. And then all of a sudden last year they just like disappeared. They've had. It's been similar with like shampoo and conditioner bars with them, but they have other options. And I think they're always. I think one, they've probably been impacted by tariffs and they're like rejiggering everything. But I think also they're just trying to make the best product. And there's a lot of trial and error in that.
- [104:30]
B
A skincare brand that at least for now is still owned by their original ownership is Juice Beauty. And they're pretty easy to find. Ulta often carries them. A lot of hippie type stores have them. You can also order from them online. They're owned by a woman. I've done as much research as I can. Since it's a smaller shop, it's harder to find some stuff about them. But the last political donations I can find from their CEO were to Clinton. Okay, so can't find any connections to Trump and they don't have as much money. So even if some of these smaller places are maybe donating to Trump, somebody donating maybe $2,000, big difference than these ones donating millions of dollars.
- [105:26]
A
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and this is another reason where I, I find that when I'm thinking about my hierarchy of best to worst, I always put small business closer to the top. Because they can't buy elections.
- [105:42]
B
Yeah.
- [105:42]
A
You know, like that alone makes them a better option. They don't have the resources to buy an election.
- [105:49]
B
There's a food company, actually Frontier Naturals that also has their own essential oil company and they have some other random like natural bath and stuff products and they are still co op owned, they're employee owned and I really like both their, the food side. They have like a lot of seasoning, they have a lot of like, that's where I often get my vanilla extract. They have some other random extracts and like those kind of things. And it's a good essential oil company that's not attached to mlm. Their products are another one where they've stayed the same for a very long time. They're well respected, well known company again, you'll find them in all the little hippie shops and another one that's, you know, seem to be around long enough. They're probably not selling anytime soon.
- [106:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, because if they were going to, they would have already.
- [106:56]
B
Yeah. I'm sure they've gotten offers.
- [106:58]
A
Oh for sure. I respect these brands that like are like no, because they could just cash out and walk away, you know, go live on a yacht or something like
- [107:08]
B
Ben and Jerry's and stuff. I'm sure they tell them, oh, you'll still like, you can still run things. It will stay like you have it now. And it's like gradually they take those things away and they're like, well, your profits aren't high enough. You need to use a lower quality ingredient for this and pay your people last.
- [107:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean the experience that I've had working for startups is even if someone doesn't outright buy your company, but they invest. You know, if you're taking in some venture capital immediately, there's going to be a shift in your priorities because those people are part owners now and you sort of like, I don't know, you owe it to them. Right. And they're going to have more say in pushing you in a different direction. Now, not all people who invest are bad people. Not all people who invest want to ruin your brand or what it stands for. But a lot of times they do in one way or another. Maybe just because they're thinking about the bottom line.
- [108:18]
B
Well, and it's a mixed bag whenever something's publicly traded.
- [108:23]
A
Yeah.
- [108:23]
B
There's the advantage of we watched during some of the DEI things where stockholders told companies, no, you're not rolling these things back. And they have to know they have to do what their stockholders want them to do. But the same token, if they're not making enough money, stockholders get mad and that's where they start making shortcuts.
- [108:46]
A
Yep. So I mean I've been in meetings like this where we're getting pushed to make these changes because of shareholders or investors. So it's just complicated, you know. And that's another reason why it can often be better to be shopping from small businesses.
- [109:06]
B
One good resource for if you want to find small businesses that are at least left leaning is Little Blue Cart. It's, I think just two women started this. It's a website where they just, you have to apply to have your storefront added. And I haven't looked recently at what the criteria is, but pretty strict. And it's like little stores. And it's a good way to find soap. I know that several of my friends who sell soap, they have their shops on there and a lot of like gifts, like they really went hard in finding shops, sold gifts around the holidays. And you can think of it kind of like Etsy, except for you're still buying from these shops. They're not having to give a percentage of their money to Etsy and there's stronger criteria and it's not a bunch of drop ship stuff and you still want to kind of probably look around and make sure the site is something you want to support. Just I'm never one to think, always rely on somebody else's expertise and you may have separate morals, like I don't know what their take is on like animal testing, which isn't as likely with a small business. But they have to buy materials and all of that. So you still want to look at those things. If you have sets of criteria that are important to you, but it's at least a starting point. Kind of like another one that people really like is Goods Unite Us. They have an app and a website and I wanna, people like to take them as being perfect. And I had people telling me, oh, seventh generation is fine on there. They don't always look at the parent company
- [111:17]
A
and okay, it's mostly going to
- [111:18]
B
be big companies but they look at their spending on campaigns and they tell you how Republican leaning and how left leaning they are. They're not always right. And apparently it's difficult to get it fixed if they have errors because King Arthur brand, another excellent brand, was listed on Theirs being Republican leaning and what this? Yeah, and this went really big on threads and they kept posting because everybody would be like, don't buy King Arthur, they're Republican. And they were having to respond to everybody and be like, no, we're not. We don't know where they got this information and we can't get a hold of them. I think it's fixed now, but their process is difficult. But it's another one where it's a good starting point. They give you some information that you can kind of go off of. And if you want to get really into the weeds, open secrets.
- [112:24]
A
That's a great one.
- [112:25]
B
Who people are donating to. And again, this is going to be for bigger companies, but you can learn a lot over there.
- [112:36]
A
You can. I use that one all the time actually. It's really useful.
- [112:40]
B
Yeah, I usually start like kind of with some of these like good unit us and stuff. And then I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna go double check here. And it. When I was looking at some of the ones to try and see who was still a small company, I was looking at that. And you will see sometimes like employees, donations. I would take that with a grain of salt. Like you can't as an employer be like, who are you donating to? Well, you can't work here. So look at their CEOs and the people on their board. I wouldn't worry too much about employees unless like every employee is republican. And that probably says something about the CEOs, but you want to look at the people who have the money.
- [113:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, listen, all of this stuff is complicated. You kind of need to do work to figure this stuff out. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just like going to the store, putting stuff in your cart, paying and leaving. But I find there's like a lot of, I don't know, like tremendous satisfaction in learning what's really going on with the things that I buy. And I think that just explains, extends to like my broader intellectual curiosity. Like one day I was like, how is soap made? And I read about it and I was like, I'm gonna make some soap and then I'm gonna understand it. And it was so fun. And I don't make soap every day or anything like that at all. I buy more soap than I make for sure. But you know, same thing with like, I'm gonna figure out how to make gluten free bread. That's good. I get that same sort of enjoyment and satisfaction out of like going to all These different sites, using these resources, doing the research to figure out who these brands really are. Like, it actually feels good, and it makes me feel like I'm taking the power back.
- [114:33]
B
Well, a lot of people talk right now about feeling helpless. Well, this is something you can do. And it may feel really small. Like, yes, I understand horrible things are happening. And figuring out where to buy your soap doesn't feel like it's really going to stop people being kidnapped or murdered on the street. But we can only do so much, especially every single day, like, going out there and protesting. Awesome. These bigger things, great. But these little actions also add up, and they can make you feel, like, a little less helpless for a moment.
- [115:14]
A
And there's something to be said from that, because these things have an impact, too. They have a larger impact when we're all doing them together, and they make us feel better.
- [115:28]
B
Well, especially if you're shopping from somebody small, that soap organ may seem like nothing that may have bought food for that family. And with.
- [115:37]
A
Exactly.
- [115:37]
B
Are safety nets falling apart. That's a big deal. Also, a lot of these companies give part of their proceeds to organizations that are doing even bigger things. So it can have a ripple effect. When you see a small business, they're like, I'm donating part of my proceeds to this organization. They're not using it as a tax loophole. They're actually donating money.
- [116:01]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think, like, once again, is it a little bit of work to figure these things out to find new resources to better understand where your money's going? Sure, it is a little bit more work. It's not instant gratification, but it's actually pretty darn close to instant gratification. Because if you're like, I want to see who owns Mrs. Meyers, and you do an Internet search, immediately, you get that boost of having knowledge that helps you feel more in control of what's happening around you. And I think that's why I get so frustrated. I mean, I'm sure you feel this way too, some sometimes, Lisa, where every time we talk about, like, shifting our spending away from these companies and the people who just shut it down immediately that are like, well, life is already hard enough. And I'm like, yeah, but this might actually make you feel good, you know?
- [116:58]
B
Well, and this is another thing. We've gotten so individual mindset, and they've taken away that sense of community. That's a whole different conversation. But I think it's on purpose.
- [117:11]
A
I agree.
- [117:12]
B
We need to be building communities. And one thing you can do is be like with your friends and those people that you're trying to build a community with and be like, okay, I'm gonna figure out some good soap brands for us. You find some good shampoos, divide the work. There's no reason that every single one of us has to be looking up the same things. And if you don't have a community yet, this is a good thing for social media. Like we said, if you go post, okay, has somebody found a good independent brand for this? You're going to get 20 people answering you. Five of them will probably be like, well, just buy tide. Just block them and move on.
- [117:49]
A
Seriously. Because they're not. They're intentionally trying to be obstruction and
- [117:53]
B
they may be bots. More of the Internet. True story, humans.
- [117:57]
A
But seriously.
- [118:00]
B
But you know, this can be a group project. It doesn't have to be all just you and start reading blogs again. I know, I'm a blogger, so this may be self serving, but there are a lot of us still out there creating blogs, not using ChatGPT that are compiling this information for you. Yeah, that's what we used to do. Do it again. Stop reading the overviews from Google that are wrong and stealing from Google.
- [118:28]
A
Seriously. I'm sorry. Anytime someone posts a screenshot of that as fact checking, I can't. You should be embarrassed. I'm not into public shaming.
- [118:45]
B
But you know, side note, you can either cuss in your Google search and that will get AI out and that is probably more fun or put minus AI and it will take out the
- [119:00]
A
search results or there you go. There you go.
- [119:03]
B
You can turn off AI with DuckDuckGo. You also have if you. For a browser, Firefox allows you to turn off a lot of AI stuff. So I went and turned off all the AI in my Google email account the other day and when I did that I was like, oh, I didn't realize how much of what was in my inbox was Google AI.
- [119:26]
A
Oh, it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
- [119:31]
B
I don't need you to summarize the paragraph email I just got.
- [119:36]
A
I know, right? Or how like when I updated my phone it immediately started summarizing my text messages. I was like, a text message is literally the shortest bit of text. Why do we need to summarize it? What are we.
- [119:50]
B
Because they want to be able to read it. They're not totally.
- [119:53]
A
Oh yeah, totally steal your content. Yeah, exactly. I, I think like all of these things. Like once again it can feel so overwhelming. You don't know where to begin, you can feel so helpless and powerless to change anything. You know, there's this cliche that's like, how do you eat an elephant? It's gross because I love elephants. One bite at a time. The idea being like, you just. You just attack one little piece of this at a time, and before you know it, you're in a completely different place, you know, and you're the expert on these things that can, like, help other people. I actually think it would be super fun for groups of friends to be like, this month, our project is we're gonna stop using laundry detergent owned by, like, Unilever. And we're gonna try all these different ones and compare our notes and then, you know, figure out what we like from there. And next month, we're gonna try to stop using cleaning products by S.C. johnson. You know, and we're just going to keep chipping away at these things. You do that as a group one. It's kind of fun. It's like a fun challenge. By the end of the year, your life is completely different than what it was when you started. And the same thing can be happened by turning off the CHAP GPT, using a different browser, you know, not going to Amazon anymore. Like, all of these little things will leave you on the other side of this feeling so much better and knowing that you've also. You're contributing to a path towards a better world.
- [121:33]
B
I've even seen some people now starting to start. Well, basically like sewing circles again, but different projects and either doing crafts or even like somewhere they'll get together and make meals together. And then, you know, if you're all just big batch cooking and it's easier in the long run, or making cleaners together, things like that. And that can be a fun little night with your friends. You know, get a bottle of wine or whatever and make things together and turn off the Internet for a little bit and connect again and learn what it's like to communicate with a human instead of a robot.
- [122:19]
A
Seriously? Seriously. I mean, I. It's like you said, I do think it's by design that we are so isolated from one another that we are encouraged by the algorithms to be outraged and angry and fight with strangers. And it's because when we're divided, we're so much weaker. We spend so much more money if
- [122:41]
B
we figure out who the real enemy is. Yeah, they're in trouble. That's why they're covering up Epstein.
- [122:46]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. We cannot stop talking about these things. Seriously. I mean, I already knew that There were all of these, like, larger systemic issues and so much injustice in the world. But I can't explain it. Like, the more and more that trickles out about the Epstein class of people, the more connected I see all of this is, and the more important it is than ever that we stop handing our money over to these people. I just. We have to. I mean, not to go really dark, but when we continue to give these people our money, we're kind of complicit, whether we like it or not. And. Yeah, is it fair that we're put in that position? No, totally not. But that's where we are right now. And we can't just put our hands up and say, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Which, by the way, is not some big economic philosophical statement. It didn't come from Karl Marx. It's not something you learn in college. It was something someone said on Twitter. And people use it as this, like, big statement that sort of insulates them from actually having to think these things through and do the work of changing the work of changing our habits and where we spend our money and what we buy is possibly the easiest work
- [124:19]
B
of all, you know, well, to build up the system that allowed somebody like Episode Steam to be a thing, that has allowed all of our companies to be bought up by a few billionaires that was built over decades. Like, if you had told somebody decades ago that that was going to happen, they would tell you you were crazy and that people would never let that happen, that that would be horrible. But they slowly started doing these things and normalizing them and making us believe we need these things and making us dependent and making us forget about community and helping each other and all of that. And so it's gonna take time to break that down, and it's gonna take all of us doing little bits together. And we can't all do it ourselves, but we can all take a piece of it.
- [125:17]
A
Yes. I love that. It's so true. Like, I think a lot about Walmart coming in and killing these Main Streets, all these small businesses. And then they were sort of the dominating force for a long time. And then Amazon came in and Amazon actually started killing some Walmart stores. And I think, you know, the reason that Walmart was able to swoop in and do what it did is because people stopped going to the Main street stores. They said, I like the convenience of going to one place. I like that things are a little bit cheaper there. I think that if people back then, you had said to them, listen, long term what you're going to do here by going to Walmart is destroy all these small businesses around the world. You're also going to suppress wages, right, for everyone. Because Walmart is going to make some of the wealthiest people in the world out of its owners and heirs while making those profits by underpaying their employees so much that like the, you know, the social safety net subsidizes their employment. Maybe people wouldn't have shopped at Walmart all the time. I like to believe that.
- [126:37]
B
I'm sure that, well, in my town, like it started as like, well, I'm in a hurry today I'm gonna go to Walmart, but I'll go to that other store that I really like and I know the people that own it next time. But just gradually, it's like, it's so convenient. I'll just go again this time and again. And then pretty soon you think, well, other people are shopping there, but they're doing the same things you. So that store that you loved, that you knew the owners, they knew your name, they knew the things you liked, they're gone. And like, I watched that there was a store I loved in a nearby town, this little like hippie store that sold food and household products and stuff, and I got to be friends with the owners and I've watched them get married and have a kid and like, they would call me and be like, we got this thing that we think you would like. Do you want us to keep it for you? Because they knew I didn't live in the same town and that I wouldn't be there all the time. But so many other stores started coming in and things like Whole Foods, they're destroying the small grocery stores like this, the natural stores, and they got a natural grocers and they got all these like chain hippie type stores and suddenly nobody was going there because they couldn't do the same price and they had to close. And you know, Whole Foods isn't going to call me and be like, oh, I know you were looking for this one product and I know you can't get here for a couple weeks. Do you want us to put in the back? It's not going to happen.
- [128:18]
A
No, definitely not going to happen.
- [128:19]
B
You lose a lot of that customer service. And we, we think those places are always going to be there until they're not.
- [128:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that all those people who just kept going more and more to Walmart and all those businesses went away, they didn't know that that would happen. They couldn't see that. Right? They didn't. They didn't have a crystal ball into the future. We're actually really lucky, believe it or not, right now, because we can see very clearly the impact of where we choose to spend our money because we have this history to look back on. And so we are very lucky in that we actually get to make a different choice.
- [129:04]
B
We also, the Internet, like, we're more connected than ever while still being so disconnected.
- [129:09]
A
I know it's ironic.
- [129:12]
B
We can look at other communities or, like, we hate that we did this thing. Don't do what we did and learn from them.
- [129:19]
A
Yeah, totally. We are actually. I don't know, we have this unique opportunity that no one before us had. And I know that feels wild to say because everything feels so overwhelming and dark right now. Like, I always feel like I'm five minutes away from crying because I'm just. My anxiety just keeps ramping up because I live in this country right now where I feel like I pay my taxes and I yet have no say in what happens around me and all this horrible shit that the United States is doing every day. And yet at the same time, I have to, like, have this little talk with myself where I'm like, actually, I can either be a part of the problem or I can be a part of the solution. And saying boycotts don't work. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Change is hard. I don't care. I need things to be convenient. That is being part of the problem. I want to be a part of the solution. Well, Lisa, as every conversation with you goes, this was so fun. I'm serious. It really was. Do you have any final thoughts, words of encouragement, anything you just want to get off your chest
- [130:42]
B
after listening to this? Go decompress for a little bit and try not to be overwhelmed.
- [130:51]
A
But be excited. Be excited. You listen. When I found out that, like, Unilever owned everything at Target or whatever, I was, like, freaking out. And then I was like, oh, wait, but there's, like, other options that I know now. And it felt good. It was a giddy, you know, but there was a. There was a period in between where I was like, wanted to, like, break things, you know,
- [131:12]
B
and please don't throw away the products that you learned about. Don't buy new ones.
- [131:18]
A
We shouldn't have to say that yet. Lisa and I both know that somehow we do have to say that.
- [131:24]
B
I will tell you, I have a Cabinet still has Mrs. Myers and Method products in it because maybe I sometimes bought too many of scents that I like to stockpile. It happens.
- [131:39]
A
That's how they get you with those seasonal scents.
- [131:43]
B
And they're like, oh, and this is such a good deal. And I'm like, okay, I need 10 all purpose sprays. I didn't. But that does mean I had a lot of time to find alternatives because I'm using my stock totally. Which also means I'm saving money.
- [131:58]
A
That's right. That's the thing. I love not to reference Reddit again, but there's a whole subreddit called Project Pan, and it's just people bragging about how they used every last bit of a product. Now that's the kind of content I want to see. It's awesome. And I get that pride when I'm scraping the last bit of anything out of the bottle or the package. There are these, like, small things that actually can bring you incredible sense of, like, satisfaction and power. And one of them is using all the stuff you already have. And listen, I had a large stockpile of Mrs. Meyer's shrimp tomato. I cannot resist that tomato leaf. And another seasonal scent that I had hoarded. I had hoarded it from the grocery outlet right after he moved back here. And you know what? I used every last bit of it, and it felt. It felt good. I didn't have to buy hand soap for like a year.
- [132:55]
B
And if you have a scent that you just really love, you know, nurse that scent while you try and find something else that you really like. And you'll find something, I'm sure. And
- [133:09]
A
yeah, make it last by mixing it with unscented Dr. Bronner's.
- [133:14]
B
Yeah, pro tip. Well, I had somebody get mad at me because I used a Mrs. Meyer's spray bottle to make an all purpose spray using Dr. Broner's.
- [133:24]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [133:26]
B
Like, but you're promoting Mrs. Meyers by using that spray. I'm like, the text on the screen literally says I don't support them, but I'm reusing.
- [133:38]
A
Oh, I know, I know. I one time was wearing on Instagram a dress I bought at Zara, like, 11 years ago, and someone was like, you're promoting Zara by wearing that dress? And I was like, I think you just want to be mad at me today because what would be wrong with me wearing a dress I bought 11 years ago? Seems like a pretty good role model, actually.
- [134:00]
B
Well, and how would they know you didn't get it from a thrift store?
- [134:04]
A
Exactly. I know. Well, listen, that I have. I could talk to you for an hour about that because there are people who also say that you should not go to the thrift store and buy any of the fast fashion brands there, because then by wearing them, you are somehow encouraging people to buy from those brands. And I'm like, I would love to see the data that proves that to you, because I don't think it exists.
- [134:26]
B
Well. And if you have something with a brand on it, and especially if you're putting it on social media, if you want to be extra careful, cover it up. I could have made a cute label for my bottle. That would be fine.
- [134:40]
A
Yeah. Or next. Next time. Yeah.
- [134:42]
B
Or a trendy hobby to pick up as embroidery. Start embroidering over your logos.
- [134:50]
A
Yeah, whatever. It sounds like a fun craft challenge.
- [134:53]
B
Or you can even buy iron on patches. And you don't even have to learn a skill and put a patch over it. There are options if you're concerned about it, but the worst option is being like, I'm gonna throw this thing in the trash. Because I'm more worried about somebody thinking that I like something that I don't. That's performative. That's not actually helpful.
- [135:14]
A
Yep, yep. I mean, I think the recurring theme of this conversation is how this, like, this purity sort of culture, this search for perfection, is actually a real problem and a real obstacle to. To progress. And it sometimes makes sense us lose sight of the real priorities. Reusing a Mrs. Meyers bottle is one of the most sustainable things you could do rather than going and buying a brand new bottle. Right. Why would we feel that using reusing a bottle that still had the label on it is the worst option?
- [135:52]
B
Well, and I kind of hate to bring up World War II right now. That's a sensitive topic since we might be headed to. To the third one, but.
- [136:00]
A
No, I know.
- [136:01]
B
But as somebody who's fascinated by, like, homemakers in the past, right now I find myself drawn to women from World War II. And there was like, this resurgent of making everything last. Like, if you look at their tips for being frugal and all their, like, cooking tips, it's use a scraper and get every last bit of the batter out. Because sugar was precious and you wanted every little bit of that sweet that you were making. Or you have a hole in your clothes, here's a way to put a patch in it. And if you weren't doing these things, society was gonna look down on you. Like, because you weren't helping the war effort. You were not a patriot. You were terrible if you didn't do these things. And I don't think we should Go to that extreme. But there is something to be said about. We should be rewarding people for actually doing good things instead of being like, well, you didn't do that perfectly.
- [137:13]
A
So, yeah, I hate it so much. Just. Yeah, I know. I mean, I see, like, on it. You know how it is. It's like that sort of, like, Internet meme that's like, someone posts like, I really love waffles, and people are like, what, you hate pancakes? Fuck you. And it's like, what? What? Like, I just. We got it. We gotta take a zero sometimes and just, like, think it through and recognize that, like, everybody is trying to do their best, and we need to support that and not judge them and tell them how they could have done it better.
- [137:52]
B
You can nicely tell people, hey, did you know that that brand is owned by Unilever now? You don't have to be like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you're using that. Be like, hey, exactly.
- [138:02]
A
You're trying very different.
- [138:03]
B
I see you're trying to do buy better brands. I really hate to break it to you. They're owned by Unilever now. I'm so sorry. This is what I'm using instead. Especially if you give people solutions, they're gonna take it more positive.
- [138:18]
A
Totally.
- [138:18]
B
For me, a lot of times I'm like, I'm gonna break your heart. I'm sorry, but. And then tell them the information, like, come at it nicely and from a place of being, like, I just learned this, and I'm horrified. Instead of being like, I'm better than you because I already knew this. You know, Keep yourself on their level.
- [138:43]
A
Yes, exactly. And listen, I know sometimes we just like, there's no. You can't read tone on the Internet. Right? Because you're not there talking to the person in person.
- [138:52]
B
They make fun of all of us millennials with emojis. But it helps.
- [138:56]
A
It helps a lot. It takes the edge off. Right? You might not be like, meaning to be like, I can't believe you're using Mrs. Meyers because they're owned by Unilever. Or, I can't believe you don't know this is owned by Unilever. You might not mean it that way, but that's how someone's gonna read it. So just like, not that I wanna tone, please people, but sometimes I just think we do need to recognize that our words have impact and the way we communicate with one another can have really negative impacts on people, you know, and kind of, like, I don't know, deflate their motivation to do better. And I don't want that.
- [139:36]
B
Well, if somebody just bought something thinking, I just bought a better product, I'm so happy and excited about that. You come in and tell them, well, actually, this is what's wrong with that thing you just bought. They're going to be like, well, why even try?
- [139:52]
A
That is exactly true. And who can blame them for feeling that way? And, you know, going back to like, using Mrs. Meyers and method and seventh generation as an example, they are always merchandise together in every big box store as the better options. Right. There might even be a little sign above it that's this eco friendly. Well, most people aren't. You know, they see it together. They're like, okay, I just take this at face value. They look like they are more sustainable because of the way they're packaged. You know, the things that they say on the packages themselves. The sign also makes me think that they're not standing there and being like, Googling, who owns Mrs. Meyers? Right. We need to give people some grace and approach them with kindness because the world does not make it easy to know all this stuff. I don't even know when Mrs. Meyers was bought by Unilever or no S.D. johnson. Sorry, I don't even know what that happened. I think it was a few years ago. People think Mrs. Meyers is a little lady who's making cleaning products.
- [140:59]
B
Okay, well, why do you think Betty Crocker's named Betty Crocker? There's no Betty Crocker. It's marketing.
- [141:04]
A
Never was. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Don't even get me started. I could do a whole episode about the food companies because that's another one that, like, breaks me because every time there is a cool, interesting new startup food brand, they are bought, like, instantly. So most of the brands that you think of as special independent food brands are no longer that either. Once again, this is just something you can ask the Internet and it takes. It's really fast. It feels good to know, even if you don't know what to do with that information yet. But it's step one to figuring out what you're going to do next. And it's part of owning. Owning a piece of the future and just being a part of this massive group of people who realize what's happening right now is wrong.
- [141:59]
B
Yeah.
- [142:02]
A
Well, Lisa, this was so fun. Seriously, once again, I really mean that. I'm going to share all of your recommendations in the show notes as well. So if people are like, what was that one brand that she said it'll be in the show notes. And I'm excited. I don't know if people have other options that maybe we didn't mention here, like send them our way. Maybe we have to do a sequel.
- [142:25]
B
Yeah, we're both pretty easy to find on the Internet.
- [142:29]
A
We really are. For better or worse, we're there too much. We're there too much. Yeah, just find me on Reddit. I'm in all the subreddits. Ice cream, project Pan. It doesn't matter. You'll find me there. Thank you so much, Talisa, for sharing her expertise with us. As I mentioned, last week, she created a whole list with links to make it so easy for you to find her recommendations. And you can find that on Substack. I'm going to link that post in the show notes. You know, originally I was just going to list all her stuff in the show notes, but really I want to drive you towards Lisa and if you use her links, she'll actually get paid for her work. So let's support her very important work by going over to Substack, giving her a follow, and shopping through those links. If we decide we're going to buy something from them, please, let's do what we can to support the people in our community. All right, we're going to wrap this all up by taking a minute to talk about how we can make more ethical decisions, even though we know that none of them will ever be perfect thanks to the systems around us. Also, because Hutch will not give up Fancy Feast, Lance Crackers. I have my own sort of, I don't know, like, mental flow chart. This like, hierarchy of good to best options for how I make purchases. And I just want to share that with you. Like maybe that will get the wheels turning for you. I guess it's all to say that it's not as hard as it seems when you sort of have a mental checklist to work from. So the first thing I ask myself is, can I find it secondhand? Which with a lot of things actually can happen. Furniture, clothes, paper for my printer, electronics. It can't really happen with food. So if I can't find it secondhand, then I ask myself, okay, can I find it from a local and or small business? A great example is Hutch and his Fancy Feast. Okay, Lance Crackers insists on supporting Nestle. I disagree. So what I do is I go to the locally owned pet shop in town and I buy the Fancy Feast there. Now it's a pet shop, but they don't sell pets, FYI. They just sell pet food. And I buy his Fancy Feast there. And I think that to me this is a better option because at least it's a locally owned business and more of that money is going to stay in the community. To me, this is a more ethical decision than going to Walmart to buy fancy fees or Amazon. Now, if I can't find something secondhand or small and local, now is when I think about what values are most important to me. And this is where I'm going to say, okay, well, Aldi feels better to me than Walmart or Target for these reasons. Or at least that chain grocery store is much smaller than Walmart and its headquarters are in Pennsylvania, where I live. So it has an immediate, somewhat local impact. Let's say I can't get it at the locally owned store, I can't get it at the smaller chain. I can't get it secondhand. I have to go to Walmart or Target or get it from Amazon. You know, like when Dustin had norovirus and flag stuff, I had to go to Walmart. It was my only option. What did I do? I just bought what I needed. Necessities only, nothing else. And that's what I'll do in those kinds of situations. I will say I haven't gone to Target in a few years now. It was way easier to give up Target than I thought, but I had definitely gone to Walmart here and there. Like, it just is what it is sometimes, right? But I'm also not going to Walmart and like fill in a cart with nonsense. I'm only buying like this thing that I couldn't get anywhere else. No matter where I bought something, I always ask myself, how can I make it last as long as possible, whether it is a piece of furniture, an article of clothing, or a skincare product. And when I am done with this item, I want to make sure that I am mindfully rehoming it, recycling the packaging, etc. Being really thoughtful about what happens when it leaves my home. Now I'll say I have prep. I have privileges here that make this easier for me to do these kinds of things. I live in an area with a lot of small local businesses and great thrift stores, the best yard sale season, locally owned grocery outlets, farm stands, and an awesome Facebook marketplace. So I can find most things secondhand and or local. I also have access to a car so I can drive places, which is good because I live about 20 minutes from the nearest grocery store. I also have time to research what I'm going to buy and where I'm going to buy it. And even though I have less money now than when I had a corporate job, I can still spend a few dollars more. So I am able to make these things work. You may not be able to be as intense about this as I am. And that's okay because I want you to make the most ethical decisions you can based on your access and your budget. And sometimes Walmart is going to be the best grocery option. Okay, Sometimes Target is going to be the only place you can get cat food for Lance Crackers who insists on Fancy Feast. But it can't be pate, right? So like you gotta do what you gotta do. Owning these decisions is one way we exert control over the world around us, even when we feel powerless. And these decisions matter. And as I said last week, there is more ethical consumption under capitalism. And we are an important part of helping others understand that too. Then they can join us. Here's what we do. We're compassionate, not confrontational. We show how we are making the most ethical choices we can within a very unethical system. I think showing not telling is more impactful than just about anything we can do. Like I'm always like, I need to show people out there that I can live as ethically and sustainably as possible. And I'm so happy. Like I have a great life, you know, that's the proof right there. Like I'm not suffering because I don't go to Target. I think it's also really important to when we can help others make more ethical decisions, when there is an option that's sharing information in a non judgmental kind way. Most people don't know most of this stuff. It is secret and confusing for a reason. And lastly, just keep up the good work. Okay? Like this is don't give up. I promise, I promise. It matters. You matter and this makes an impact. It's so easy to feel overwhelmed by the sheer unfairness and excruciating shadow shittiness of 2026. This is where I remind you again, we are not powerless. All of the worst people benefit when we think we are powerless and when we give up. Yes, I cry pretty regularly these days. But you know what? I am not accepting defeat. Good people far outnumber bad people. And I know that we can change everything that is happening around us. And I know that we can change everything that is happening around us if we just work together. Thanks for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse. Written, researched, hosted, edited all the things by me Amanda Lee McCarty if you liked what you heard Please leave a rating a review subscribe subscribe. Tell your friends all the things if you'd like to support my work financially, help me carry out Operation Snip Snip, there are many different ways you can do that, and you can find all of that in the show notes and in my profile on just about every social media platform. Lastly, but of course, never leastly, thank you to Mr. Dustin Travis White for our music, our audio support, and for being the kind of guy who's like, yeah, we've got a feral cat in the spare room. Who doesn't? All right, I'll talk to you all next week. Bye.
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