← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 260: Your beliefs are your superpower, with Malena of The Slow Era
02:20:39
Loading summary
Transcript239 lines
- [00:18]
A
Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that knows that the future is human. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode two 260. Wow. You know, I've been doing Clothes Horse for almost six years, which is way longer than most of my jobs relationships. The amount of time I've lived in a single city for one fell swoop. I mean, six years is a really long time for me. And every week of those six years, I have received multiple emails from different startups and PR firms and CEOs, all all announcing a new thing that will save the world from fast fashion or fix the industry once and for all. Sometimes it's an app, other times it's a new miracle fabric. For a while it was a blockchain. Oh my gosh. Virtual outfits. Do you remember when the solution was that we would all just start buying virtual clothing for the metaverse? Oh my gosh. The number of PR emails I got about that. No matter what the contents of these emails are, which think about how many, like hundreds and hundreds of these I have received, possibly thousands over the past six years. The conceit is always the same that technology will fix this problem. That is fast fashion. And yes, I think technology can be a part of the solution. There's already technology out there that's helping. It can be especially great for closing some of the waste loops in the fashion production system. I think even the technology that allows us to buy and sell secondhand clothing online is really important and part of a circular future. But we know that the real fix to all of this fast fashion over consumption, the ethical and environmental disaster that all of it is, the real fix is buying less new stuff. That means shopping secondhand first, and that means more people selling secondhand and helping other people find secondhand. It means shopping small and local, which means more people starting small businesses and more people showing up to support them. It means repairing what we already have, and that means more people doing repairs for others. And others are teaching us how to do these repairs ourselves. Maybe even we're all sitting together to repair our stuff side by side. It also means mindfully rehoming our stuff, getting our unwanted stuff into the hands of other people who want and need it. And of course, it means doing a lot of work on ourselves to unpack our own relationships with stuff and shopping and the clothes that we wear. I always say that slow fashion is a way of life that extends far beyond the actual fashion and clothes part of lives. It really is a lifestyle and that involves a lot of changes in how we live. Our lives in how people live their lives. Of course, this also means then that we need to get out there and talk to other people, the people in our lives, maybe people we haven't even met yet, about why we are making these changes and why they are so important and why they should get involved too. The solution to the fast fashion crisis to over consumption. The way to fix the fashion industry is people. Humans. And one way people come into play as part of all of this is via their small businesses. So this week I'm joined by Melina of the Slow Era, a vintage store in Ames, Iowa. The Slow Era is also the hub for the slow fashion community in Ames. The entire business is built off of Melina's values as a slow fashion crusader and art activist. In this episode we're going to talk about how Molina uses their own values as a decision making tool for their business. Why writing a business manifesto made this a lot easier. How they reconcile their own anti capitalist beliefs with being a small business owner. That is really interesting conversation. How they connect with and educate their customers and community via the business, how to avoid compromising your values in business and how it will actually open doors and bring in more customers. If you're loud and proud about what you stand for, that's just the beginning of what we're going to talk about. We're going to touch on a lot of different things related to that Now. This episode was originally supposed to come out last week when I was in Mexico City. See, I have been planning a trip to Mexico City for seven months. Last fall, for our anniversary, I bought Dustin and I tickets to two shows in Mexico City that were happening last week and they were both Belle and Sebastian shows, which I was really excited about because I am a massive Belle and Sebastian fan. I still listen to them pretty much almost every day and have like my entire adult life. I have a lot of like emotion and memories and just important moments in my life that are kind of all tangled up in those albums. I mean, I think any of you who are music lovers feel the same way. Where there are so many songs and albums that are so. I don't know, they are like, they are the soundtrack to a certain moment in our lives and when we listen to them, it unlocks all of those memories. Like you feel them all again. Like the beach house album Teen Dream, which came out in 2010, reminds me so much of this spring that I lived in Philadelphia and then moved to back to Portland for the summer and then stayed there for a few years. Anytime I listen to that album. Now I am transported to all of the feelings I was experiencing at that exact moment, whether they were as simple as, like, what it felt like to ride my bike around after dark in the summertime and just feel, like, the breeze in my air as I was, like, cruising down Southeast Ankeny to, like, how I felt, falling in love with someone who ultimately broke my heart and so many other feelings in between. And so, anyway, Belle and Sebastian, really big deal to me. Really excited to see them go play these special anniversary shows for two albums that I love. So I bought us these tickets as a gift, and we were like, oh, my gosh, we're gonna go to Mexico City in seven months. This is gonna be amazing. And so, like, this year, we haven't really done anything because we were like, well, our big trip is gonna be going to Mexico City. So we flew there. We had so many hopes and dreams. We were going to see these shows. We were going to eat some fancy dinners. I made reservations at some of our favorite restaurants, and we were going to go see all this art and just do all these other things. And two days into our trip, I got norovirus. I mean, like, really bad norovirus. I think, like, the elevation always affects me. Anyway, in Mexico City, I think it, like, was making it harder for me to, like, stay hydrated and get well. And so I spent the next three days just completely bedridden. Could not leave the place we were staying, could not really leave the bathroom very much. Had a fever, Just miserable, miserably sick. And so I missed both shows. I canceled all the reservations. I ultimately only got to go to one art museum. And it was a pretty rough trip. But this is just how life is sometimes. And if you live enough life and go enough places and do enough things and make enough plans, sometimes you're gonna find yourself barfing when you had plans. And that's just how it goes. And there will be other shows in my future. I'm still trying to figure out how to catch some of these Belle and Sebastian shows. There will be other trips in my future, and hopefully I be going to Mexico City again in the future because it's one of my favorite places in the world. But, yeah, so last week, I was planning on releasing this episode. I had all these posts in mind about it, and obviously all of that went by the wayside. I wasn't even on social media for more than a week. And you know what? I'll just tell you, I think it worked out for the best. Not the part where I Missed the show and threw up and cried. And I mean, to be honest, I also, like, threw up so hard I peed on the floor of our bathroom. I mean, like, whatever. I don't care. It's happened to all of us. That part I could live without. But I will tell you, and we'll get to this in a few minutes. It actually maybe, like, worked out for the best that this episode pushed out a week later than I planned. One more update that I just want to give you before we jump into this episode. I'm sure you want to hear what's happening with operation snip snip, aka getting all 15 cats in my colony spayed and neutered. Of the 15 cats in the feral colony, 11 have been spayed and neutered, and we are down to the last four, which are impossible. One of them is Steve, who is Tim's brother. And we almost had Steve, but then Tim got in the trap instead and he pooped in there, and then no one would get in the trap. So Steve, he's out there. Heathcliff, who we think is the father and or grandfather of many of the cats in our colony. He. I haven't seen him since we got back from Mexico City. I'm sure he will re emerge, but he's also on our list. The third cat is Minnie, who is a super feral female cat who I have been trying to trap really aggressively for months, and she just will not get in the trap. And I have to say, when we came back from Mexico City, I think she looks pregnant. So I'm gonna be doubling, doubling down on that effort in the next week. I'm coming up with all kinds of tricks to try to get her. And lastly, is Alexis, another female cat, Actually, Minnie's mother, who is, according to my nearest non Amish neighbor, is the sister of Susan, who you might recall as the cat who was living in my spare bedroom for several weeks before we got her spayed. So she. My neighbor says that Susan and Alexis were abandoned here, like, I don't know, about a year ago by some people who just didn't want them anymore. And they've been living out there ever since, which makes me really sad because they're both like, super tiny little fluffy cats. So I have been trying to get Alexis alongside Minnie really aggressively, like they were my top priorities because last year, Alexis was pregnant, had seven kittens in our yard and abandoned them all. And despite our best attempts, none of them made it. And we were like, we can never go through this again. Alexis can never Go through this again. We're gonna get Alexis. And so I have been trying all these tricks to get Alexis. She wouldn't even get near the trap. It's like she knew. And then finally, she did get in the trap one day because then she had five kittens later that day in our spare room. So right now, Alexis and now four kittens. One of them passed away. They are living in my spare bedroom. My goal is that when the kittens are weaned, Alexis gets spayed. And maybe if she likes me enough. I'm working on it really hard. We've been slow blinking with one another, which is a big step. If Alexis would like to, she will continue living in the house with us. And then we will find homes for the four other kittens, who, by the way, are all very adorable. They're all fluffy, as far as I can tell, Just like their mother, just like their aunt Susan. So if you or someone you know is in the market for an adorable clothes horse endorsed kitchen kitten, reach out to me. But I will say, I have a feeling all of these kittens are like supermodels, and they're going to go to really good homes. People are going to be, like, clamoring for them, I hope. But who knows? Dustin was like, what if we just double the amount of cats we have in the house? And I was like, no, we can't do that. Anyway, don't let me keep all these kittens. So the operation continues. That means all the merch on the website is still 50% off with the promo code. The price is right to help cover the cost of kittens and surgeries and transport and laundry and extra special food and traps and all this other stuff that continues to go on. And also, I hate to say this, this is upsetting to me, actually. Last night I was outside and there was a kitten sort of across the yard. Not a kitten, a cat. Sorry, let's not get ahead of ourselves. There was a cat across the yard who did not look familiar to me, and I didn't want to go up and scare them. So Dustin took a picture of them with his phone, and we zoomed in, and it is a new cat that we have never seen before who is Calico with white paws. So now I'm gonna try to trap her next week. The battle never ends. Marsh is gonna be on sale for the rest of time at this point. Okay, that is the update on cats, on norovirus on Mexico City, on where I've been, all that stuff. My conversation with Melina is long So I want us to jump right into it. And afterwards, I'll be back to talk about Everlane and the importance of our personal values. All right, Melina, why don't you introduce yourself to everybody?
- [15:35]
B
Hi, My name is Melina. My pronouns are she, they, and. I own the Slow Era, located in Ames, Iowa.
- [15:43]
A
I am so excited to talk to you today because, as I was telling you, I. I get emails every week from people who are. They're trying to develop, like, apps or AI tools that are going to, like, fix fashion. And honestly, like, in the six years I've been doing Clothes Horse, like, those emails have come every week. Like, I laugh to think that, like, six years ago, people were like, oh, we're gonna use blockchain, and that's gonna fix fashion. Like, there's just, like, been all this stuff. And, you know, my thought on that is, like, listen, there are some great tools out there already that I think help people buy less stuff, buy more mindfully, find secondhand stuff more easily. Totally has revolutionized how we can have access to secondhand stuff. So that. That part is amazing. But, like, I am pretty dubious that what's going to fix fashion is, like, another app that helps you organize your closet or an app that helps you make outfits out of things you've thrifted. Like, that's what your friends are for. Right. And, you know, I do think that there are ways in which technology can be a powerful tool for, like, quote, fixing fashion, but it's gonna be more like, you know, rethinking, rebuilding the supply chain that moves secondhand goods around the world, and it's gonna be reaching more people to get them to shop secondhand most of the time. And honestly, beyond all of that, it's probably that, like, a lot of us need to go to, like, intensive therapy to undo our consumerism. Right. But, like, you know, the thing that I tell people all the time is there is so much work to be done to solve the problems of fast fashion and over consumption, but the work that needs to be done has to be. And, like, pardon, like, the military metaphor here, but it has to be like, boots on the ground, like us out there, irl in the communities, doing work and connecting with people. And that's why I feel really passionate about small businesses like the Slow era, who make sustainability, you know, ethics, their values a key part of the business, and are actually out there connecting with people in real life and kind of bringing them into this, like, slow fashion revolution, Right?
- [18:05]
B
Absolutely.
- [18:06]
A
So today we're going to talk about the Slow Era what you've learned as a person who we're going to talk, we're going to say the word values like 1000 times in this conversation, at least, about how taking your values that are rooted in slow fashion, how that has in some ways made running a business easier, in some ways harder. But why you do it and what's come out of it.
- [18:32]
B
Yeah.
- [18:33]
A
And my hope is that people are gonna listen to this conversation and they're gonna be stoked and they're gonna be like, forget about this app I was building that was gonna tell people what shoes to wear with their pants. I'm gonna start, I'm gonna open my own secondhand store or something else. You know, repair studio, mending classes, whatever. Like, right. Like, the rules of business are kind of the same no matter what the business is. So why don't you tell us a little bit about, like, what the Slow Era is?
- [19:03]
B
So the Slow era is a shop that highlights slow fashion and slow made items while promoting sustainable practices. We carry vintage clothing, mostly accessories, shoes, and also handmade things made by local artists and national artists. And then every month we also work with a different artist to make, to collaborate with on a collection that is just made just for our store. Something small, small run of something from clothes to jewelry. Next month, we're doing a liquid soap, all sustainably made. And so even, like, the packaging is something that's really important as well. And then when it comes to our values, I'm just going to read the last part of our brand manifesto because I think it just succinctly demonstrates everything that I'm trying to do with the Slow Era. And that is, the Slow Era is for people who oppose the corporate consumerist framework that steals from artists, devalue objects, and mass produces poorly made items for profit at the expense of workers and the planet. In a world of fast fashion, where clothing is seen as disposable and quality has declined, we have a mission to save vintage pieces from entering landfills. We often remove stains, clean, repair, or rework pieces, giving them a new life where they're valued and loved. We aspire for our shop to provide unique items built to last and meant to be cherished while celebrating creators promoting community over competition and sustainability for both the planet and ourselves.
- [20:43]
A
I mean, that's amazing. And I know spoiler. I know it took you a long time to write that. There were a lot of back and forths and revisions and it's amazing. But like, imagine, first off, most people would not believe that a business could be operating under those values. Right?
- [21:00]
B
Yes.
- [21:01]
A
And all the time I know people be like, well, all businesses are terrible. Right. Because they're selling things. And there's my personal favorite, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, which can be used as an excuse to do a shein haul, but can also be used as a way to shit on small business owners. It's really versatile.
- [21:20]
B
Yes.
- [21:23]
A
And I think that that is really interesting that like you, I mean, for everyone who's listening, I have known Melina now for like what? Three. Three years? Ish.
- [21:33]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's wild.
- [21:34]
A
It's wild. It's got. It went really fast and I have seen like the slow era just turn into this like much bigger thing than it was three years ago. It wasn't even called the slow era then.
- [21:44]
B
No, no.
- [21:45]
A
And you know, I've seen you go on this journey, but I, I know that along the way, like aligning your values with starting a business, there was, there was probably tension there for you. Like how do you. Because you're obviously like an anti capitalist. Right?
- [22:05]
B
Yes.
- [22:06]
A
You have very far left values like many of us here in the slow fashion community. How did you reconcile, like, I am having a business with, you know, your uncomfortable feelings with. With capitalism. Yeah.
- [22:21]
B
It was not easy at first because I also have an art activist background. So I was making community based artwork before this and I like hated gallery settings and just, even just selling my work for profit. I had no desire to do commissions or make even sellable work. Yeah. And I think one thing that did hold me back in my business for so long was equating commerce with capitalism and just not getting paid. And I think that we have maybe devalued the arts so much that we've kind of internalized it in some ways where we think we don't deserve to get paid or we just. Right. Equate getting paid with capitalism and don't want to get paid because we're participating in it. And this really held me back for a really long time. The vet, when it came to pricing things, getting paid what I'm worth, you know, just giving away things for free but still wanting to pay other people. I think a lot of people think they wholeheartedly agree that artists and creative people should be paid for their work, but think that they're the exception somehow.
- [23:40]
A
Yeah. I mean, when you and I were talking about this before, I said like, I feel like all of us on the left are like allergic to getting paid somehow. Like, or less even us getting paid, but other people getting paid. And then you know, we judge people who are getting paid and then therefore we like, feel bad when we get paid. And, you know, this is just like such a common recurring conversation here in the closed horse world. Like a few years ago, it was around the time actually I was started I met you, I got an email from a listener who. It came in like early December. And I read it and I was like, okay, I need to think about this. Because my first response was like, I'm enraged. And then I had Covid. I got to lay in bed and think about it while I had a fever for like a week. And then I got to stew on it while I was like, packing up all of our stuff to move across the country. And then I got to think about it even more while I was driving across the country with Brenda, like all the way from Texas to Pennsylvania. So days of driving, like stewing on this and talking about it with my friend Christine. And the. The gist of the email was basically like, everyone who makes and sells things, so that would include artists, by the way, should stop making and selling things because it's bad for the planet. And instead they should all get re educated and become engineers or nurses or doctors. Do something that is, you know, useful to society. And then it would be like a better world. And conversely, like, I should stop having people on the podcast who have small businesses. And I should also stop taking ads from small businesses, which would mean that, like, well, I don't get paid when I have a guest on the show, but, like, you know, the small amount of money I get from ads covers the cost of making this podcast. So this person was basically like, I think everyone should work for free. I guess is like the moral of the story. And as you. As you can expect, I was like, really not happy with that email.
- [25:43]
B
It is. That's so frustrating to hear. And it totally aligns with, you know, the defunding of the arts and that this is not this, you know, these degrees, these skills cannot be used professionally when it's like me going to art school was actually one of the best decisions I ever made in so many ways, but also for my business. Business relies on so much creativity and also this person. It's like, do you not like being entertained? You know, what about like, all the music you consume, the movies, the tv? Like, the world would be so ugly and boring if we didn't have art in it.
- [26:25]
A
I mean, I think unfortunately, you know, there is this view of people who are into like, sustainability, environmentalism, slow fashion, etc. That we are Joyless people who just suffer through our day to day lives. Every single moment is just like utilitarian and devoid of joy. That's from people who are on like the other side of this sort of spectrum, outside this movement. And then conversely, there are people within it who are like, yes, we should be absolutely joyless and sacrifice everything at the expense of question mark. I remember a friend posting a few years ago, like photos from a vacation on Instagram and people, someone being like, I haven't seen my family in like seven years because of the carbon footprint of traveling. And I was like, dude, this is like not acceptable. Like, you cannot sacrifice all of your joy in your life for your. For, I don't know, question mark what you think that's going to achieve, really? And I think it goes back to this idea of like us searching for some sort of like ethical purity that does not exist.
- [27:30]
B
I completely agree that ethical purity part. And it's unsustainable. Emotionally, mentally, we need joy to carry us through. Like, that's one of the things about the slow era as well. I created the environment itself and the branding with joy in mind. You know, it's very colorful inside. And we have. I live in Ames, Iowa, where it's cold half the year in the Midwest. And we have people who come in in the middle of winter and say, I just needed to come in here and get some color.
- [28:03]
A
Mm. Yeah.
- [28:04]
B
Like joy. Joy gives you the ability to keep going, you know? And when you. It makes me sad when you said, I haven't seen my. That person said, I haven't seen my family because of the carbon footprint. And it's. I get it. Like, maybe there's ways that you can curb some of that. But like, also we need community and connection, real IRL connection more than ever. And it's like when I'm sitting around with my friends making dinner, playing with their kids, I'm like, this is what life is about.
- [28:36]
A
Mm. Mm. Absolutely. And I think, like, listen, there is a portion of our society who goes way too far with this. There's way too much mindless consumerism and that includes sort of travel as a part of that. Mindless consumerism over consumption. Absolutely right. It's up to us to see where those lines are and, you know, stay within those lines. Sure. Like make a committed effort to not be thoughtlessly, just travel all the time and buy a ton of stuff. But I think that, like, there is this good middle ground where you are still living a life of joy and happiness while also making really impactful ethical Decisions. And I think that we just live in this, like, all or nothing kind of time where it's like you're either like sitting at home and not using any electricity, so sitting in the dark, wearing like a burlap sack, or you're like, traveling around the world in a private jet. I just, I think that, like, we need to realize that, like, there is, like, there is a whole spectrum here in which we can live our values, but also like, be mitigating our, our impact. And you know, I, I, I say a lot, like, when I'm talking to people about small ways they can make radical difference. One of them is shopping small. Right. Because that money stays in the community. It's way different to come and spend $50 at the Slow Era than to go give $50 to Amazon in like, so many different ways.
- [30:09]
B
Right.
- [30:09]
A
You know, and when you and I were talking before, like, what is your, like, one, one of your goals for the Slow Era, it's like, to make enough money so you don't have to work as much.
- [30:21]
B
Yeah.
- [30:22]
A
And I would say even really right now, like, because I know the behind the scenes of the Slow Era, it would be for you to get paid for your work. You know, like, like that's step one. And you know, tell me, like, I don't know when we were, you know, you, you and I met originally because you were coming to the small biz big pick classes that I was teaching with Courtney. And one of the things that I talk about there is like, profit is not evil or bad or something you should be ashamed of. Pro profit is what allows you to pay yourself for your work, you know, have health insurance, hire people and give them good jobs. It's not the same when the Slow Era makes a profit as when like Amazon makes a profit. Right.
- [31:06]
B
Exactly.
- [31:07]
A
Where that money actually goes, which is like, away from most people to like, one person.
- [31:13]
B
How,
- [31:16]
A
how are you getting, like, more comfortable with that idea that like, you need to make a profit to keep your business going? Yeah.
- [31:23]
B
Because at the end of the day, that's what enables us to do the work. You know, it's so, it's so draining to be working without any payoff. Right. We've talked about how, you know, sometimes we can trade or whatever, and that is great and that's fine, but that doesn't pay the bills, that doesn't pay our rent. And you know, the thing that was, I mentioned this earlier, that was a turning point for me was unpacking the difference between commerce and capitalism. And this is also the difference between, you know, spending money at a small business versus Amazon or Walmart and these big corporations, they are really participating in commerce. Under capitalism, commerce is simply. It's an organized system for exchanging goods or services for money or objects. The economic system that commerce exists under, such as capitalism, affects commerce through, through rules and regulations. And capitalism is specifically an economic system where profit is the ultimate goal, no matter what, regardless of how you get it. Where that inevitably requires people in the planet to be exploited for that profit. So it's like, what with the Met Gala that just happened, One of the things I keep seeing is like how Amazon, there was like a lawsuit against Amazon where their workers had to pee in bottles. Like, are you kidding me? The richest man on earth cannot pay his employees a living wage? You know, and same with like Walmart. Most people are on government assistance and. Yeah, and like all of how. One thing I always point out as well, when it comes to, you know, selling vintage versus fast fashion, is the inherent value of vintage. It's something rare. It's something that is made so much better than something you're going to get made today. And it's going. It has already lasted the test of time and will continue to, especially if we mend it and take care of it. But it's like, how can someone make a profit? How can a business be a multi million dollar business by selling a t shirt at $10 or $20 without exploiting people, without exploiting natural resources?
- [33:48]
A
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, and like, I am, I'm just gonna say that I'm actually glad that people are finally like questioning the Met Gala because I have felt uncomfortable with it for a really long time. Like, of course we should be, like, there should be, you know, money to support the arts around the world, not just the costume department at, you know, at one museum. But why does there have to be a big gala, right?
- [34:21]
B
That money could, oh my gosh, so much money that's poured into that could go into art programs, nonprofits, grants for artists. I mean, just giving money to a straight up real person in your community, you know?
- [34:36]
A
Totally, totally. And I just also like, you know, I work with a lot of small business owners. A lot of my friends are artists, creatives, freelancers, myself included, my husband included. And I'm just like looking at pictures from the Met Gala and I'm like, you know what? One of my clients, like needs surgery and doesn't have insurance and had to have a big sale to like pay for her surgery. Like, what the fuck, guys? Like, I don't know. So many people I know don't have access to healthcare right now are worrying about how they're gonna pay their rent. I could just go on and on. We're all worried about losing our jobs to AI. I'm pretty sure me speaking out against AI publicly actually perhaps lost Dustin a job. And I see all this happening, and then I'm like, oh, but woo. Rich people having one big night of fabulous outfits while I see on Reddit people who can't even afford, like, diapers for their kids. Like, I just. I'm over it. I'm. I. And I'm glad that more and more people are. And my hope, and this is where I think we have, like, a big problem as a larger community, is that we spend too much time infighting. Like, sending me an email saying that, like, maybe everybody who's like a, like, you know, a maker or an artist or like a vintage seller should get retrained and get, like, a real job. Right? We spend too much time in fighting with one another when we should be like, hey, like, we need to work together here because our real problem are the people at the Met Gala.
- [36:09]
B
Exactly, exactly. And we spend so much energy policing others.
- [36:15]
A
Oh, I mean it. I like it.
- [36:18]
B
It's like, how about instead we. What if we put that energy towards holding the billionaires accountable, right? Who are hoarding all this wealth and are actually making our life hell and are polluting the planet. Right? Like, it's. It's so, so sad.
- [36:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree, I agree. So you've had to, like, I don't know, like, come to terms with this idea of, like, this is. Businesses need to make money, and it is uncomfortable, right? Like, I. I am uncomfortable talking about money in general, right? And I find that I often don't get paid for my work or paid as much for my work because I have that discomfort because I think so much about how, like, the wealthy are, you know, fleecing all of us, and somehow if I ask, send someone an invoice for my work, I'm like, oh, no. I'm just like, them because I wanted $50, you know?
- [37:16]
B
Right. Which is a drop in the bucket to.
- [37:18]
A
I know, I know, I know, I know. I think that it's like, not only do we have to, like, stop fighting with one another, we kind of have to, like, stop fighting with ourselves 100%. And I. Yeah, seriously. Especially all of us who are, like, assigned female at birth because we, more than anyone, have been programmed basically by our families, by school, by society that we should undervalue ourselves at any given moment and like sacrifice. But that said, I know that your work on the slow era has been quite a journey. That has been pretty difficult and definitely, like, not lucrative for you and very scary. So why don't you tell us a little bit about that?
- [38:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, it has been a long time coming. We're getting better. I didn't even get to tell you this, but yeah, we just had our best April on record. Yes. In nine years of business.
- [38:13]
A
Nine years, Yes.
- [38:15]
B
I mean, the slow era has only existed for 2ish years and now we're going into our second year as a brick and mortar. So this year will be three years of as the slow era. But yeah, and then, yeah, there's a lot that goes into it, but yeah. So at the very beginning, so I came from a working poor family. I never wanted to own a business. And then, you know, once I started learning mostly from you, actually, I realized I kind of have a knack for this and that. It's one big creative problem to solve and that, that could be really fun. Right. That's like where the art background comes is like, how do we, how do we fix this and everything? But in the beginning, it was really just out of necessity. I had been working for other businesses, buy, sell, trade stores that were modeled after Buffalo exchanges and Milwaukee and in Richmond, some other odd jobs in between there. And I had to quit my job because I got into a summer art program when I was living in Richmond. And it was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. So I quit my job and they wouldn't hold it for me. And then when it was done, I was like, oh, crap, I have to pay my bills. How am I going to do that? I was like, well, I do have this skill. I've been a buyer for professionally for other businesses for years. So I, I had like, literally no money in my bank account. Like I said, how was I going to pay my bills? But I had a couple hundred dollars on a credit card. I'm pretty. I don't like to overspend. So I'm not talking thousands, I'm talking hundreds. And so.
- [39:56]
A
No, but I know that feeling.
- [39:58]
B
Yes. So I went to the bins because that's kind of one of my one tip I would give people too. It's like when you can't spend money on inventory, how do you get inventory for cheap without exploiting people? Right. Without buying like super cheap wholesale merchandise, let's say. So I went to the bins and I Bought a bunch of stuff and then I took it to my old place of employment, I sold it and I also started my depop, my Etsy, my ebay, started selling online and I paid all my bills and eventually that store also gave me a rack in there and I started selling there regularly. But I mean I bought my. I bought a printer, mailers, all of that with my credit card in the very beginning. And I just kept doing it because I was like, okay. But I was also doing it part time. I did not know how long I wanted to do it.
- [40:53]
A
I. And.
- [40:55]
B
And I just pretty much did it out of necessity. So.
- [40:59]
A
Yeah.
- [41:00]
B
And then my boyfriend, who's now my husband, he got a job offer in Indiana. So we moved. We got married and moved and he was making a little bit more money. So I said, what do you think about me trying to do this full time? He agreed. So I've been doing it full time since I've worked a couple part time jobs at some other retail places like here and there, very part time. Because I've always wanted to focus on my business. And also working from home is very lonely. So it'd get me out. But when it came to starting the slow era, I still wasn't making a ton of money leading up to I had the branding solidified and I knew that that would only help. You know, I had niched down as well because before I was selling modern clothing and vintage and basically something for quote everyone, which is now a pet peeve of mine. Like, not everyone can be your customer.
- [41:56]
A
Yep, yep. That's what I tell everyone. And you know, people will like fight with me about that. They'll be like, that's not true. Anyone could be my customer. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna discriminate against them. I'm like, sure, yeah, anyone can be your customer for sure, but everyone is not your customer.
- [42:13]
B
No, no. Especially when it comes to. I mean, we can educ. Absolutely. And people can open up. But I mean, I've heard people come into my store and say like, my parents will not buy anything secondhand.
- [42:26]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [42:28]
B
Because they just associate it with thrift stores and being gross, which is also, I mean, we're going off on a little offshoot for a moment. But it's like, that's one of the reasons I also clean and like clean everything. It smells good in there because it kind of changes people's perception of buying secondhand. But it doesn't have to be this gross, smelly process. You know what I mean?
- [42:51]
A
Yeah.
- [42:51]
B
You can have an elevated experience.
- [42:53]
A
Absolutely. And I think, like, yes, there is this increased sort of, like, mainstreaming of shopping secondhand that's been happening over the past, like, five or six years, which I am, like, so excited about. And I just want it to spread and spread. Because the thing is, like, we have to remember that we're kind of in a bubble. And there are still a lot of people who associate secondhand with being dirty or for poor people, whatever that means to them. And even, like, I'll tell you, like, I grew up very poor, and my family, despite that, has a stigma against thrift stores. And they would. I remember, like, when I started to get really into thrifting in high school, my family was kind of embarrassed about it and made fun of it. And so for all of us who are like, yeah, shopping secondhand is second nature. We have to remember that there are so many people out there who just are like, I don't get it. It's gross.
- [43:48]
B
Yes, yes, yes. And then when it comes to. When we. When I opened the brick and mortar, I was still like, how am I gonna make this happen?
- [43:59]
A
You know, I feel like it happened overnight. Melina, you were like. We had a meeting, and you were like, hey, I'm. The space came up for rent, and we looked at the listing for it, and I was like, oh, this is really cool. And then two weeks later, you were on Instagram, like, we're opening a store.
- [44:15]
B
Oh, my God. Like, it's unbelievable. This is one. It just. The process of finding the storefront changed my life. It changed my whole perspective on life because I realized that, like, you know, just as, like, what's more most common is people expect the worst to happen. Like.
- [44:35]
A
Like, oh, me too. I'm that way.
- [44:37]
B
Right? Ex. We expect these random surprises where, Right. The next shoe to fall or bootstrap or whatever. The saying how it is.
- [44:46]
A
And.
- [44:48]
B
But what I have found is it's also just as likely for these random, positive surprises to happen. And you never know what is just literally right around the corner. Because it was like, November. I saw this. Some signs for rent on my main street, and I was just curious. I've been thinking about a store for a really long time. I was like, I wonder what rent goes for here. So I called a couple places, I saw a spot, and then I could figure out, oh, how could I make this work with that rent? And. But I'll spare all the details of how I found my space. That one fell through. And then for two months, I was searching, and I was Determined, like I'm a person that I will not give up until I get a solid. No. When I want something, and that is definitely a piece of advice that I would give people is like, failure is not an option for me until a door literally closes for me where I'm like, this is not an option. But then, okay, how do we go around this obstacle and see something else? And it was just wild how I found this other space that ended up being better, bigger, a little bit cheaper. And I signed the lease two weeks before we opened. And we opened in 10 days, including painting.
- [46:11]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [46:11]
B
I know, I know. It's like. And no one could tell, like people be like, oh my God, you did such a good job. It looks so good in here. I was like, oh, thank you. Because you would never believe it. We put it together in 10 days, you know, but of course we're still, you know, making improvements and all of that along the way. I think that never ends. But when it came to also opening and the money, I knew in the very beginning I said I think vendors is the way to do it because of making the overhead. And I didn't adequately plan for like the space in that. And that was something I learned along the way. Like now with the space that we have, I only have one vendor because it just isn't. Was really hard to even make ends meet even with having a lot of my overhead covered by vendors because most of my store was not my inventory. Yeah, yeah, but, but then opening costs, I was like, we can only buy only what is necessary, first of all. So I, I didn't paint the exterior, but you know, we got signage. We put a lot of work into our window display. I'm going to paint this year the exterior. And also I got a lot on, I got a lot of low cost inventory. But also I got a lot off of Facebook Marketplace. I would go to thrift stores regularly and I, but once again I want an elevated presentation. So that was always important to me. So I painted things and refurbished things. But also I found some great just like shelving units, glass shelving. At the thrift store I found this, this $450 retail mirror that has lights and I got it for $80 at the thrift store.
- [48:08]
A
I will tell you though that like my friends and clients who find their fixtures on Facebook Marketplace have the best looking stores.
- [48:18]
B
Seriously, it makes it look so unique and less cookie cutter. But also it's like, you know, I'm not wanting, want it very intentionally. I don't want it to, quote, look like a thrift store.
- [48:28]
A
Right, right, right. But. Right, yeah, there's a balance. Right.
- [48:31]
B
But yes.
- [48:32]
A
Like, the fact is that most retail actual, like retail fixtures that are made for retail are so ugly. So ugly. So if you can find vintage retail fixtures, different story or rework pieces that you find on Facebook, Marketplace might. Like I said, my clients and friends who have done that, their stores look so good.
- [48:55]
B
Yeah. Shelving, display dishes. Like, whenever I go to the thrift store, I'm always looking for display items, you know, like colored bowls to put things in and so forth. And then here's another thing that I think people, some people often overlook, and I think sometimes because of maybe shame, is you be surprised when you put out to people that you need something. How many people will be like, oh, I have that. You can just have it. I'm not using it.
- [49:24]
A
Ah, I love that.
- [49:27]
B
That blew my mind. That was one of the things that was so overwhelming to me when I opened the store was I was just overflowing with gratitude. Like, people I barely knew, people I did know. And, and, and I had like my. I had a friend, one of my best friends, she was like, I'm just gonna send you $300 to get this done.
- [49:54]
A
Wow.
- [49:56]
B
Yep, Exactly. Like, you just never know. When I did that art program, I had a friend who paid for my entire art program, thousands of dollars. Wow. Because she believed in me. Because she. Because I was doing our activism and she believed in what I was doing in my community. So she was like, as long as you just keep doing community based work, I'm going to give you this money, no strings attached. Because I said, I was like, I can't pay you back. And she was like, don't worry about it.
- [50:29]
A
That's amazing.
- [50:30]
B
You just never know. And I'm not saying, like, you know, try to take from people. That's what I'm saying, you know, but when you just open up that, like, maybe I can receive some help and that's okay, and don't expect anything that's also a part of it. Have no expectations. But you'd be surprised how generous people will be, especially if they believe in your work. And I think this could be a good segue into political, like, the political aspect of it. When I was in art school, I had this professor and mentor named Nicholas Lampert. He's also an art activist. And I remember this was when I was like, baby art activist, right? I'm like, in college learning. And I remember I interviewed him for another art class because we had to interview an art professional that we admired. And one of the questions I asked him that stuck with me was I said, when you make political artwork, does it deter people? And he said, absolutely not. It's the opposite.
- [51:30]
A
That's amazing. Yeah, I. I think it's true too. I mean, I have this conversation over and over with my clients and my students these days, which is just like, people support you, whether it's buying your art or coming to your store, buying the things you're selling because of who you are, because you are a human. Your humanity, your creativity, what makes you you is why they show up and support you. And. And that is so more important than ever in an era of, like, massive, like, you know, mega corporations and AI, like, humanity is more valuable than ever. And I mean, I'm sure you have found yourself in this trap in the past too, Melina, where you're like, I don't even even. Just like writing a caption for Instagram or something on your website and you start saying, like, we do this. We are.
- [52:27]
B
Yeah, I fall into that all the time. Even still, I mean, I.
- [52:31]
A
For me, coming from, like, a corporate background where it's very team focused, it's always like, we, we, we. I remember doing an interview with someone once, and I was. They were like, asking about, like, things I'd done in my last job, and I was like, oh, well, we did this. And the results were that. And, you know, I just was listing all the stuff and they were like, okay, well, what about, like, stuff that you did? And I'm like, oh, no, no, that's all stuff I did. And they said, well, you said we. And I'm like, I guess could. Because that's how I've been taught to speak about accomplishments. But I think that more than ever, hey, be like, I. I am a human. I did this. It took this much time. I did this work. I think that it is so important. And I think one really essential component of that is like, I am a human, and this is what I believe in. This is what I stand for. This is the filter I use for making my decisions. And when we got started, you read some parts from your manifesto, which is something that I make everyone do who works with me is sit down and write, like, what do they stand for? Who are they? Because that's their business, right? What does this business stand for? And I think it's really important because it helps you filter out decisions, right? But it also is something that you need to be, like, projecting outwardly and sharing with your customers. Right. And, like, you actually put up your whole manifesto in your store.
- [53:56]
B
Yeah.
- [53:58]
A
And, you know, you and I were talking about, like, when we were preparing for this, we talked about how, like, you know, being an artist, being a small business owner, having a podcast, all of these things are really hard work. Right. And they eat up a lot of the oxygen in your life for a long time. Right. Like, you sacrifice to do these things.
- [54:19]
B
Yeah.
- [54:19]
A
And the only way that feels possible is if you really are building what you're doing off of your values and standing for them, like, every day.
- [54:31]
B
Absolutely, Absolutely. I mean, it's what keeps you going. Because there are a lot of challenges when you own a business. It's the hardest, I mean, ever. It's like, I remember Courtney would say, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And it is. It is. But it's also so rewarding, especially when you're standing on your values, you know?
- [54:54]
A
Yeah,
- [54:57]
B
yeah. That brand manifesto was so, so crucial. I agree. Every. It's something everyone should do. It filters every decision, and it makes it easier to make decisions. I have so many examples already in just, you know, a year and a half of the slow era, brick and mortar, where that has filtered decisions. You know, we have. I have interns from Iowa State University here who work in my store, and they're fashion students. And every year they make this incredible fashion show, and it's so well done. And they also host. They also have a partner designer every year. Last year it was Parade. This year was Aerie. Well, I partnered with the program in different capacities, and this year they asked would. Could we put up a display for the fashion show in the store? And I said, yes, of course. And then when they mentioned it was aerie, I said, well, the only thing is, we can't promote aerie in the store because we are always educating about how detrimental fast fashion is to the planet, and we are always promoting slow fashion and mending. And that's. That's a part. That's a part of our brand's identity. And if we would promote a fast fashion store, then it's like, what do you. All of what you say means nothing.
- [56:29]
A
Absolutely. And, you know, I think here is. Here's the issue right at the core of this. Why having these values and having this manifesto allow it, interestingly, like, enough, it kind of, like, it empowers you to do better work. It enables you to do better work and have a bigger impact because it makes it really easy to make decisions. But, like. Like, throughout the 2010sish. Like, peak. Like, you know, online. Like, dot com bubble era. Every company had, like, a mission statement, even if their real mission of the business was selling clothes. Like, seriously, like, when I worked at Nasty Gal, we had a mission statement that we had to chant at the beginning of every all hands meeting. And it was, like, written in a mural in the cafeteria. And it was something so vague. It was like, we're on a mission to empower all women to live their best lives. Like, what. What does that even mean? We sell clothes. We sell clothes made by exploited women. Like. Like, this doesn't. This isn't a filter for anything except that maybe it means we don't sell men's clothes. And I have been thinking a lot about companies values, what they are and when you can see them. And like, like, I. I think a great example here is, like, Target, right? Like, what are Target's values? Nothing. What does Target stand for at this point?
- [58:02]
B
Exactly. Exactly. They had a whole Pride collection. And then last summer they pulled their Pride collection because of all the anti LGBT sentiments and politics.
- [58:14]
A
The same thing with getting rid of all the DEI policies. Like, what they showed is like. Like, for one, I'll just say, like, I haven't gone on the Target website to look to see if they have, like, a mission statement or values, but I will probably do that while I'm editing this episode. As far as I can see, Target's mission is to just make a lot of money. Or, like, another great example of, like, people running a company that seems to be value driven, but perhaps the values were just a marketing story. A great example is Alberta, the quote unquote sustainable wool shoe brand. And I always was like, I have an issue with allbirds. Like, I knew it was not this, like, sustainable brand that everybody believed it was. It was started by two guys who were like, kind of like tech bros, who were like, sustainability is a thing, right? And no one's making sustainable shoes, so we're gonna do it. But they weren't necessarily like, like, we're hardcore environmentalists here, like, looking to make a difference. We. It was like, we want to make money, right? And, you know, for a while, they brought in a ton of money. They opened up a bunch of stores, and when I say they brought in a ton of money, I mean, not sales, like investment from, like, vc. And you would go to their stores and it would be like 95% places you could take photos for Instagram. And then 5% of it was a shelf of shoes. And already I was like, this is this is a clear indicator that this is not a brand that is driven by this value of sustainability. It is a brand that is driven by marketing. The fact that, like, their store is mostly just Instagram backdrops, you know?
- [59:51]
B
Right.
- [59:52]
A
And there were over the years, a couple lawsuits that accused them of greenwashing. More and more people sort of, like, fell out of love with the brand. You know, they didn't really, like, innovate or do anything new. And their sales dropped. And then last year, they sold their intellectual property to another company, which means another company is now making their shoes under the brand name Allbirds, but they are not made by the original company, whatever that might mean in this situation, because we know that Allbirds was doing a fair amount of greenwashing. But I would expect that probably Allbirds intellectual property was bought by yet another brand that buys up brands and then, you know, initiatifies them even more, which we talked about a lot here on Clothes Horse. But then just like. Like a few weeks ago, Allbirds, the original Auburns, not the company that bought the intellectual property, said, hey, guess what? We are rebranding as Freebird AI. And now we're an AI company.
- [60:51]
B
Right? I know.
- [60:52]
A
Right there you're like, okay. Because I was like, yeah, duh. Guys like the.
- [60:57]
B
The.
- [60:57]
A
The founders of. Of Allbirds and the executives there were never like, we're here to save the planet. They were here to make money. You know, like, there were not really values behind that company. Or. I was telling you, when I worked at my worst job ever, the feminist brand. That company wasn't started by people who felt passionate about feminism or even passionate about clothing. They came from Nike, from the marketing department at Nike. And they were of this feeling that marketing is the most important part of the business. Not what you sell, not even who you sell to, but if you did the right kind of marketing and you got the right celebrities involved and paid the right influencers, then you would be a successful brand and make a lot of money. And that meant that they did a lot of really foolish things all the time that were indicative of this company sort of being devoid of values or the values of the brand being, like, to make money no matter what. I mean, the CEO literally said to me in an email, my number one goal is profitability. And that's when she was telling me that, no, they were not gonna provide us health insurance for yet another year.
- [62:04]
B
Capitalism.
- [62:05]
A
I know, I know. And it would be true, though, like, when you are not even passionate about selling clothes, and that's ostensibly what your business Is what that means is you don't have great clothes and they don't fit very well. The quality is poor. Customers have a bad experience. When you don't really believe in feminism, but it's your marketing story, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes that are that over time, pull back the curtain on you not really being feminist either. You know, one was, like, underpaying people, especially women, and trying to get as much free labor out of women all the time. And that stuff came back to bite them in the butt over and over again. And, like, I could go. I could sit here for, like, two hours and just give you Listen. Of more companies that are doing, like, a similar thing or have been doing a similar thing. And I think what frustrates me about it all is for all the people out you like, you and so many other people that we know who are out there, like, out in the community, doing this work, living by their values, working so hard to reach other people and create good jobs and do the right things. There are these other companies who are like, don't believe these things at all, but use them as marketing stories, and it sours people on what you're doing, because if they can't trust Target or Allbirds, why should they trust you?
- [63:29]
B
Right, Exactly. I mean, people can always eventually see through this facade. And the other thing I was thinking about when you're talking about this is what an insult it is, not only to the workers, of course, but to the customers. They think that if we market hard enough, if we say things enough, people will believe it. Right. It's like, oh, we can just market that. We're a feminist brand. But it's like, what about actual feminists? They're gonna be able to see through your B.S.
- [63:59]
A
yeah.
- [64:00]
B
You know, the people who actually believe in these things.
- [64:03]
A
Absolutely. I mean, as. As an actual feminist working at that brand, I mean, it was like chipping away at my mental health every day. Like, I was like, I feel like I have to go in there every day and be the voice of, like, values and ethics, you know?
- [64:19]
B
Yes.
- [64:20]
A
And, like, no one wants to hear it from me. And even when I was at Nasty Gal, where ostensibly we were this, like, girl boss feminist brand, like, I would be the one in the meetings being like, hey, guys, we can't do that. That's fucked up. That is not feminist, or that is really racist, or that's cultural appropriation. All these other things that are a part recognizing right and changing are part of feminism. And people would be like, whatever. I don't want to hear it. Like, it was really, really hard.
- [64:49]
B
I can't even imagine. As a business owner, I have all these values. You know, I, in early college found feminism and it changed my life in so many ways. Coming out of a patriarchal, high demand religion. But I would, I want my, you know, I want my employees to point out if I'm not living up to my values. That's one of the things we talk about on day one, you know, is please let me know if I am not living up to these things. I, I mean, even when it comes to empowering people, that is something I'm so passionate about. So it goes into how I give feedback, right? But all it's like, if I'm being unkind, I've failed, you know, so I'm like, please point something out to me if I even say that to them. Because also in our contract with vendors, one of the things is that if something can be construed as culturally insensitive or appropriative, it's pulled from the floor. So when I train people, we, they go through all of that, all those policies that I have with these vendors and I say, if you see something that's questionable, let me know.
- [66:07]
A
Totally, totally. And I think like that is the difference between what you're doing and what a lot of these companies who may use some sort of value as their marketing statement, they're not behind the scenes doing that sort of like education and paying that attention, that much attention to the details of it all. And of course, when they mess it up, it just ruins it for everybody else. You know, why should I trust the slow era if Target turns out is racist? Like, I'm like, well, I mean, I can explain why, but like I get why, right? That is a, that is really challenging for people to see. And you know, the thing about small businesses is they are human run. They are built upon humanity. And that means sometimes you're gonna fuck up and that's okay. It's like owning it and learning from it and you know, having the kind of team and community around you who can have that dialogue with you is so important.
- [67:05]
B
Exactly, exactly. One thing that keeps coming up for me in all of these discussions and again is progress, not perfection. And that goes with also being sustainable. You know, don't be dismissing, right? There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Try our, our, our best. But when we're trying to do every little thing right, whether it's buying sustainably and living in a sustainable lifestyle or running a business, you're going to make mistakes. That is okay. That is a part of being human. When we fail, it's when we can't take accountability. We can't be, you know, responsible for our mistakes, and we don't want to do better and learn. That is the failure.
- [67:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And unfortunately, like, for businesses who are not built upon these values, right, Their reaction to being called out on things is doubling down. I was telling you how, like, AI, okay, AI is a great example, right? A business here in town, a restaurant that Dustin and I love. We take everybody who visits us there. It's called hi Fi Izakaya, and it is, like, Japanese food and really fancy drinks, and they always have someone in there playing records, and it's just a great place. They posted something on Instagram a couple weeks ago that was AI generated. Like, obviously AI generated, right? It was a flyer for someone's record night at the. At the space. And people called it out. They were like, hey, like, I can't believe you're using AI Art, you know, on. To create social media content. Like, you know, here's information about, like, why this sucks and why we're against it. And Molina, the owner, from their personal account, their personal Instagram account, came into the comments and was just fighting with people and calling them, like, losers for being against AI.
- [69:15]
B
I cannot even imagine calling anyone a loser, let alone getting defensive.
- [69:20]
A
It was, like, shocking because, like, listen, it turned out that the AI flyer came from the person who was. Who was doing the record night. And they could have just said, hey, we didn't know this was AI. Like, we're still learning about this too. You know, the person, the DJ doing this night made this. And we're gonna have a new policy from now on that you can't use AI art. It could have been that simple.
- [69:42]
B
Exactly. And then it's done.
- [69:44]
A
I know. But instead, this person was, like, fighting with everyone. And now Dustin and I are like, I guess we can't go there anymore. We've talked about it, like, so many times. And we had people in from out of town last week, and we had a plan to take them to hi Fi Izakaya. Like, we take everyone. And we didn't. Yeah, because it just. I was like, this is, like, next level.
- [70:08]
B
So disappointing. We have a local business that opened a few months, maybe last year, a few months ago. Very new. And all of their branding is AI and they, like, own it. Like, all of their logos, all of their menus, I think even their menu items.
- [70:24]
A
Oh, no, that is like, I. I see Pictures of that, like, shot screenshots of that on Reddit all the time. And I'm like, what the hell, guys?
- [70:31]
B
It is mind blowing when I'm just like, your creativity is your superpower. Like, look at all of these chefs who have so much knowledge that is not being utilized. Instead, it's being outsourced to a computer.
- [70:46]
A
You know, I say this all the time when we're, like, looking into businesses and, like, what they're up to. And I always say, where there's smoke, there's fire. Like, if there's one thing going on, like, there was allegations of them stealing from one artist, right? Like, okay, well, if they're doing that, there's other stuff going on behind the scenes for sure. Like, they're being horrible to employees and.
- [71:07]
B
Exactly.
- [71:07]
A
You know, who knows what else. And seeing the owner of the hi Fi Izakaya, like, fighting with people on Instagram about this AI flyer, I was like, oh, so this is probably a horrible place to work, right?
- [71:20]
B
Exactly right.
- [71:21]
A
Like, because you're showing up and acting this way, so you probably yell at people all the time at work and are weird and shitty with that over silly things, and people are probably really stressed out, and it's probably a culture of fear, which is like, beyond even the use of AI. Why I'm not going to go there anymore and I feel that way about AI is just one example of when I see businesses out there using AI like that, I know that there's other ways they're cutting corners. Because fundamentally, and maybe I'm sure someone who's listening to this is going to get really angry at me for saying this. But fundamentally, when you're using generative AI to write your emails or write your blog posts or create images for your menus or your flyers or your Instagram posts or whatever you are saying, whether you realize it or not, hey, I'm so totally cool with stealing from artists of all varieties around the world because it has to poll, right? And I don't respect their creativity. Their creativity, their labor, their passion, their talent. Like, I don't respect that. To me, it's just a commodity that I don't want to pay for. Exactly. And that is really what you are doing when you are using AI for that. And I know that feels really heavy. And I'm going to tell you, I see the same sort of conversations happening on social media about AI that we've been having about. About fast fashion for years, where it's the same, like, defense mechanisms that come up, right? Like, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. So I may as well use AI to make my flyers or it's ableist to not Let people use ChatGPT to write their emails or oh geez, you interesting that you're using Instagram but getting on me for using AI like that kind of stuff, you know, like it's just the same dumb excuses I've been hearing for like how many years now that don't like that are just defense mechanisms, you know. But I do think like AI is a great example of a way a company very clearly. And when I say company I can mean a small business too. When we'll just say a business shows very clearly what their values are or are not.
- [73:36]
B
Right, right. And like you can just be honest too, like what is below that that. Right. Because why would a small business per se outsource AI? Probably cost, but then my follow up would be okay, well how can I have this work without a huge cost? You know, what kind of artists can I work with? Some, some people have a sliding skill, they should be paid. But also, I mean this is where my art background comes in. Yours as well, where I design almost everything if I'm not paying an artist, you know, even if you're using some of Canva, you can switch it to make it unique to you, you know, and you can just say oh man, it's tough to be a small business and to make like overhead or whatever. But then the follow up is so important. How can I do that while still not using AI and not using this exploitative system? You know?
- [74:45]
A
Totally. And I do think a lot of times when small businesses and big businesses are making sort of like unethical compromises like using AI, that's just one example. Or buying stuff off a TEMU and reselling it, that's another example. Right. It is often because of a lack of resources or like in the case of big businesses, it's a perceived lack of resources, budgeting and profits and shareholders and all that stuff. Right. But like in a small business state it's legit. Like I, a lot of the small businesses I work with are one person, you know, and then maybe they have some part time employees, like maybe. Right. And so like talk about like no resources. And I think that like I totally understand that and I think like that's where having one of the things I am passionate about in small business and ultimately closed horse is a failing small business, but is nonetheless a small business is how can I solve this problem of no resources creatively. And so for me, for Example, when I started Clotheshorse and I knew I had to make Instagram content for it, I started just using vintage fashion photos. And what bothered me about it is that there was a lack of physical diversity there. You know, even when I could find black models, for example, everybody was still incredibly thin. So it was just showing, like, young, thin people in every single image. And I was like, you know, in my dream world back then, this is not what I would do for Clothes Horse now, by the way. But back then, I was like, in my dream world, I would have the budget and the resources to do photo shoots of real people in the slow fashion movement. Like, how sick would that be? Wearing, like, cool secondhand and handmade and, like, clothes they'd had for a long time. Like, that would be my dream, but I don't have that ability. And so it started this, like, sort of creative process for me where I was like, okay, I'm not gonna show people at all anymore on the Clothes Horse Instagram, because I think it's important to me that everybody can see themselves in Clothes Horse. Right. And so then I started using animals, and then I started scanning vintage books and ads, and then I learned how to do Photoshop. And then I started, like, expanding beyond that and, like, you know, finding more and more secondhand books and magazines and stationery and starting to, like, as an actual artist, take this stuff and, like, mix it all together. Right? And constantly growing and challenging. And then I was like, okay, I want everything from now on to look like it is, like, an actual printed item that I'm handing someone that they're reading and, like, exploring that creative aspect of it. And I wouldn't be having the joy of, like, pulling that thread within my own creative interests and learning new skills if I hadn't said, listen, I don't have the resources to do what I want. Right. I'm going to explore beyond that. And for me, like, I'm so stoked about all the things I've learned how to do and made and, like, over the past few years. Because I had limited resources.
- [78:00]
B
Yes, yes, exactly. I mean, first off, how have businesses survived and done things for all of these years? AI is so new. We don't need to.
- [78:09]
A
Oh, my gosh. I know. We act like it's been around forever.
- [78:12]
B
Exactly. And, like, we're dependent on it. We absolutely are not. Not.
- [78:16]
A
No, you're not.
- [78:17]
B
There's that. And then also, I could see someone hearing you talk about this and say, oh, that sounds like such a long process, but the process is the beauty in it, you know?
- [78:28]
A
Totally, totally.
- [78:30]
B
And that is so much more rewarding. Right. All the skills you learned and really developing the imagery of Clothes Horse that it came into, came from your brain. We're giving away our power, our creative energy to AI when that is our superpower. And I would even say that when it comes to any business, when it's like when they are trying to root their business in their values, is what. What are you passionate about?
- [79:01]
A
Yes, that.
- [79:02]
B
That is your superpower. If you're passionate about marketing, you should be a marketing business. You should not be using marketing to sell a product. You know what?
- [79:12]
A
I'm totally like, take that passion and help other people market their businesses creatively.
- [79:17]
B
Exactly. And small businesses.
- [79:19]
A
Yes. I think that is so true. Cause that's the other thing. No matter what, your passion is out there. And like, this goes back to that email that I got years ago, which, by the way, for those of you who are newer listeners, I did an entire episode about that email, which is not something I ever really want to do again. But I felt like it was a conversation that had to be had, you know, and it like, gave me the kick in the butt to have that conversation with everyone. But going back to that email, the thesis of it all is that there are good jobs and bad jobs, Right? And, you know, people who are making things, who are artists, who are selling things, are the bad jobs. And the good jobs, the virtuous jobs are engineer and nurse and teacher. Well, one, we, I'm sure we could use more of nurses and, well, I know we can use more nurses, and I'm sure we could use more teachers and more engineers, but there's only so many that our economy as it exists right now can support and our population can support. And so that automatically was like a bad argument that everyone should go do those jobs instead of being artists and makers and, you know, having businesses where they sell things. How about this? How about we take the things that we're passionate about, whether that is making art or like you said, marketing, or helping people pick up out clothes or repair things or whatever it might be, Take that thing we're passionate about and say, like, okay, how can I take this thing I love doing and put it out in the world in a way that actually, like, aligns with my values and helps sort of push the world as a whole towards my vision for the future. So, yes, if you're really, you love marketing or you love social media or you love sewing, okay, how do I take this idea and use it to get other People who share my values ahead in this world, you know?
- [81:14]
B
Exactly, exactly. I mean, and that was the turning point for my business because like I said, I had been in the vintage sustainable fashion world. I didn't really call it sustainable fashion, secondhand fashion at the time, for years. And I was already living a more sustainable lifestyle without even realizing it, like taking care of my clothes and thinking about the next person who will be wearing them and. Yeah, but when I started actually listening to Clothes horse like in 2021, it changed my life because all of a sudden I was like, wow, there is something deeper to this. It's not just, just finding cool clothes. It's not just having something unique and high quality, which was my entrance point. But I'm a person. Part of the reason that I could not fully see myself committing to doing this for the rest of my life is I'm someone who needs purpose. And I think actually everyone needs purpose.
- [82:16]
A
Definitely. I totally agree with that. Yeah.
- [82:18]
B
But I can't sit for so long. And this goes back to that call that you got or the email you got. I, I beat myself up for so long where I was like, I wish I could just sit at a desk job 9 to 5 and plug away and do and just get my money and get paid and just be okay with that. But I cannot do something no matter if it's for someone or for myself that I do not believe in.
- [82:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [82:48]
B
So when I started learning the impact of what I was already doing and that it could help the planet, I was like, oh my God, this is the missing piece. And then it gave what I was doing purpose and drive and energy.
- [83:05]
A
That's amazing. Yeah, no, it's so true. That is really. I don't know, I think that like one of the reasons, the many reasons that we live in this time of like hyper over consumption and people fighting on the Internet basically is that most of us don't get to do things that we're passionate about, that we don't feel like we have a sense of purpose. And I'll tell you, for most of my career, going into the office every day and helping fast fashion brands make more money did not give me a sense of purpose and it was deeply impactful in my mental health. So I'm saying this firsthand, like I know this life and, and what it did is make me look for other ways to feel okay. And it meant that I bought a lot of stuff, you know, And I do really think that it can feel like we are powerless to live our lives with Purpose with values with meaning. And I'm gonna tell you that that's actually not the case at all. But doing that, that may require some changes in how we live our day to day lives.
- [84:15]
B
And that's scary for people especially, Especially when you live in a capitalist society where you need money to live.
- [84:22]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and I think that's the tension of it all. And it sort of goes back to like how on the left, we're sort of allergic to getting paid because we have to, we have to accept that as we live our lives. Right now, unfortunately, we do need to be paid for our work because, like, I don't know about you, but my landlord does not take good vibes as rent.
- [84:48]
B
Right.
- [84:48]
A
Right. I am unable to barter, to pay my electric bill or buy groceries or get, go see a doctor or get my prescriptions filled or anything like that. And so I have had to have a lot of difficult conversations with myself about this where I am like, listen, you have to stop working for free because what's happening is then you can't pay your bills. Like, I have had to have this conversation many times with myself and it has forced me to do a lot of introspection about how I can merge my need to survive in this capitalist landscape with my purpose. And it required some pretty significant changes in my life. And it also required me to really, I don't know, believe in myself.
- [85:40]
B
Yeah.
- [85:40]
A
And do some. Do other work on my mental health and my, my behavior patterns to take care of myself so that I could do more good things for the world.
- [85:54]
B
Exactly, exactly. I'm reminded of that very last sentence in the Slow Era's brand manifesto. Sustainability for both the planet and ourselves.
- [86:03]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [86:04]
B
Getting, getting paid is a part of that sustainability. You know when people come into my store and they say, I'm so glad you're here. I hope you stay for a long time because we've had some vintage stores in our town filter out. How I'm going to be able to stay is people paying me and seeing the value in the work. And I have had, I had a customer who like our, our rag sock closed in the mall and they're like, where am I gonna get cool vintage sweaters? And like, I have to go to the Slow Era right now and support them so they stay open.
- [86:38]
A
Seriously? Seriously. I think that that is like, it's so important for us to understand that things like this stay around when we show up for them, and when we don't show up for them, they go away. And I have Been yelling at people for years that they need to get paid for their work. Okay. Like, even when I particularly wasn't getting paid for my work. I mean, you remember in small biz, big pick, I was like, you all need to plan a business that pays you for your work because otherwise you're gonna go away. That is. That is the fact. And a lot of the small businesses we've seen close over the past few years, it has been more that lack of financial sustainability than their desire to run their business or the desire of people to support that business. In fact, when I'm teaching people, I tell them, like, listen, our goal here is sustainability. Yes, of course, environmental sustainability, ethical sustainability, but also financial sustainability, emotional sustainability, creative sustainability, and of course, physical sustainability. And often how we achieve the emotional, creative, and physical sustainability is through financial sustainability. And that means getting paid for our work. And I'm gonna tell you, every time I teach a class or I've posted about this on social media, and I'm sure you see this too, Melina, when back when small biz, big pic was still around, every time we posted about people paying themselves, people would show up in the comments to say this. Well, I intentionally keep my prices super low so they're acceptable. And I don't get paid for my work, but it's just a sacrifice I make for my community. Oh, really? Oh, really? Okay, well, then either you have some other financial safety net, which is maybe your partner makes a lot of money, or you have a trust fund. Fine. But, like, for the rest of us, that's not an option. And like, we need to charge prices that ensure that we can get paid for our work so that we can see doctors and have pay rent and have food and take care of ourselves and our families. And like, no one wins when we martyr ourselves by working for free. And I.
- [88:52]
B
Exactly.
- [88:53]
A
I still can't believe we fight about this every day. And we do.
- [88:57]
B
Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. And like, it goes back to that self sacrifice. You know, people like me and you, we grew up in a poor background, so of course we're going to be more empathetic to class and have more class consciousness. And sometimes that's where it's like, ooh, that can be a pain point because. Right. I want to be accessible. Yeah. And you can. You can still be in your pricing. Pricing range sometimes. But, like, for instance, I do not buy anything for my store if I don't feel confident that I can make at least four times what I price it for. And if I can't, I Do not pay for it, period. It doesn't matter how great it is. Because if I, you know, it's just, that's a part of the deal, you know, so if I can price it at $38 and I got it for less, right, I got it for $9 or less. But I think another thing when you're talking about getting paid is sometimes it seems counterintuitive, right? Whether so, like, right, not everyone is your customer. So niching down that actually keeps customers and draws people within that niche to you. And then also raising prices. I raised prices when I rebranded and I was like, is this going to kill me? But no, it did the opposite because also I was only sourcing higher quality things. I decided to pay myself more for all of the time that it took to find the things, to search for them, driving, cleaning. And also I showed that process. I need to still show it some more on our social media so that people see the value. One of the things, when I collaborate with artists, it's up to them, but I tell them when I meet, I say one thing I'm a big fan of is process videos, process reels showing you make the thing. Because people are so disconnected from how clothes are made, jewelry made, and they're just used to getting things for so cheap. And they don't understand all the labor that goes into it. So when you show them the labor, just something clicks for them.
- [91:17]
A
Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. And I want to go back to what you're saying, like, oh, you don't buy something unless you can mark it up four times. And I want to be clear to everyone who heard that, that that's not meaning that then like, Melina pockets all that money and goes to the mall or something that's so that Molina can pay rent on the space.
- [91:36]
B
Like, exactly.
- [91:37]
A
All the other taxes, payroll, all the other business expenses. I just want to be clear because I think when I see people like misunderstanding, marketing, marking up stuff on the Internet, it's because they think that, like, they don't understand that all that the money that's left over after you sell something actually isn't left over. It has to pay all your bills for your business.
- [91:57]
B
Exactly. Actually, when I buy from people, when people sell to me, that's one of the things I say to them. I say, I just, I'm like, how much are you looking to get for this? I just have to be able to sell it for at least four times what I buy it for because of transaction fees. Like, almost no one pays with cash these days. That's hundreds of dollars per month. And then overhead costs, that's thousands of dollars per month.
- [92:22]
A
Yeah.
- [92:22]
B
And, and I'm still working on paying myself. I can barely pay myself.
- [92:27]
A
And I'm just gonna say this to everyone who's listening is that many, many small businesses that you follow or know same situation. I mean, because I see their books, I know, I know what's really going on behind the scenes, you know. And my goal with all my clients is to get them to a point where they like are getting paid for their work and can have health insurance and maybe someday get a house and, you know, care for their families and all of that stuff. So like it's, it's, it's, it's way harder than you think, especially in the current climate here in the United States. Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep clothes horse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garment that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brands Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite Plus. I just want to also add here on a personal note that right now Ruby is actually working with me to create a one of a kind unique to me special dress that I will be wearing for all future clothes horse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing Patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's SlowFashion Academy Selena Sanders A social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style, minimal carbon footprint. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a dam. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicauunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. cute little ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive value. Find us on Instagram. Utelittleruin Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's Deco Denim. You have like in your store, like the manifesto is on the walls. You're obviously like sort of like this missionary for slow fashion. Do you get to like be political in your store and have conversations about like, you know, because slow fashion is political. Do you get to have these kinds of of intense like values driven conversations
- [97:47]
B
with customers all the time? It's actually amazing how often it flows so naturally as well. I think one of the biggest points is when, when it usually happens is people will ask about selling to us and then I'll also mention oh, and some people choose to sell to us because we stain remove, we we wash Everything and repair things. You know, some people don't want to donate to a thrift store because they don't feel confident that it will actually go to people who need these things, that it's going to just go into a landfill and pollute the planet. But then also another thing that is people see the quality of vintage or older folks will be like go down memory lane. And the most common entry point to sustainable fashion in the store is usually saying, yeah, they just don't make clothes like they used to. Right?
- [98:43]
A
Yep. That is such a good conversation starter.
- [98:47]
B
Yes. And it doesn't matter if they've thought about sustainable fashion in their life because it clicks for them. And then same thing with young people. A lot of young people, let's say maybe, I don't know, 26 and younger, maybe even a little bit older than that. Most of them, especially if they're only buying new and even if they're thrifting these days. Right. Do not know real quality. And so they're shopping on Depop and they're like, why is this vintage item $100. But when they are in store and in person or at a market, they can feel it in person, the quality of it, all the little details like engraved buttons. Right. Or just like so many little details. Or then they try it on and see how it fits so well. Or it can be altered to fit them perfectly just for their body. And it clicks for them again because they're like, oh, this is why. This is a hundred dollars. Even though it's secondhand.
- [99:48]
A
Yeah. I mean, and then you can start talking to them about like why clothes are low quality these days, what the impact of that is like other things that come along with that low value proposition from fast fashion. Right. And how fast fashion became the predominant business model. Right. And like on and on and on. And like I just, I love starting conversations that way rather than oh, I couldn't help but notice you're wearing clothes from Shein. What the fuck is wrong with you? Right.
- [100:16]
B
That is not productive. It just isn't like a shame based approach is a no go first, you know, full stop period.
- [100:23]
A
It doesn't work. Yeah.
- [100:24]
B
And I mentioned, I mentioned the like little details and engraved buttons. People will point those things out and it's another great entry point to be like, yeah, isn't it wild how you can't get that anymore? All of these decisions that have been made along the way for these corporations to profit, like not even putting buttonholes at all, let alone the most boring buttons ever, you know Cutting. Cutting lining. Right. No pockets. All of these decisions that were made just for profitability and to be able to sell things at such a low cost.
- [100:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. And then it's like a whole conversation right there. And do you find that people are usually pretty, like, receptive to that conversation?
- [101:05]
B
Yes. It gives them. People will say, oh, this is more than a store.
- [101:13]
A
That people. You told me that people really have started to view like the slow era as like a third space, like a safe, safe space in Ames.
- [101:22]
B
Yes. Yeah. Because we also, you know, outside of even just sustainable fashion, we're pretty outspoken about politics. You know, we. About when all those ICE raids were happening in Minneapolis. We're only three hours south of Minneapolis. And, you know, we did a post about ICE out and it was widely shared. And also we closed to be in solidarity with the strike that was happening. I put a sign out on the front of the door that said why we were closed and had a link to all of the fundraisers. And I had a customer come in the next day and say, I came yesterday. And I saw that sign on the door and I was like, hell, yeah, I will be back tomorrow.
- [102:10]
A
That is amazing. Because you know what? This goes back to this idea. If you start your business, no matter what it is, with values and passion at the core, and you really name what those values are and you use them to make decisions, you will do things like close in solidarity. Right. And it will have this halo effect of educating other people about it, of getting other people thinking about it and bringing people into that movement and companies that don't have those values to use for decision making. You know, going back to Target, which is like easy pickings at this point, right? Target's not going to close in solidarity. In fact, Target's going to be like, yeah, ICE agents can come in our store. We've seen that. And like, that just goes back again about how, like, take what you are passionate about, what matters to you, and use that as your ME means of reaching other people and building the world that you want to see. And maybe for some people it's like you, Melina, where it's like secondhand clothing and educating people about clothes and working with artists and supporting art. Maybe that's what the business is for some people. And maybe for other people it is. It's that they. They do marketing or they teach people how to can vegetables or. I mean, there's like a million things, right, that the business could be based on what you're passionate about, but then using your values as like the operating, like the operating manual for that business basically.
- [103:50]
B
Exactly. One of the businesses that we, that we carry in the store is another locally, a locally owned Ames business and they're doing the collab with us in June on the liquid so soap. They are sustainable. They use local beeswax for candles, wax melts. All of their products like are sustainable. So we have in the store some of their homemade lip balms and the packaging is compostable. And then also you can bring the empty containers, if they're glass, back to us or we also do tins like for beard balms. And if you bring it to us, we give you a coupon for $2 off your next one. That's amazing because then we can, you know, reuse the packaging for some of it. If it's not compostable.
- [104:39]
A
That's great. I mean, and once again, just like one other small way that you are using your values to actually educate people. Not even in a heavy handed way. It may not even be obvious to them.
- [104:51]
B
Exactly.
- [104:52]
A
And I just, I think that like that's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about small businesses. Because small businesses can do these things, make these decisions, connect with their communities in a way that like big business does not. And because small businesses are, can be so values driven, the, the net benefit to both like the world at large, but also customers, their customers who buy the things is significantly higher. Like if, you know, like we were when we had Dustin's bandmates here last week, we were talking about Campbell's, the soup company and how like shitty the soup is. Like how we used to eat it when we were kids and now it's like, can't even imagine it. Like, it's so gross. Even though like I love soup and I eat soup almost every day and I was like, you know, the thing about Campbell's is it's not like they're like we were started by a bunch of foodies who just wanted everyone to have actual access to the best soup. No, they are like we saw that you can make a lot of money off of putting soup in cans. And that's how the business started. Trust me, I've watched the foods that made America with or that built America with Dustin. It was like we could get rich off of putting soup in cans.
- [106:07]
B
You know, so wild.
- [106:08]
A
And so if like your value isn't even that you're passionate about soup, you're not going to make good soup. And then therefore customers don't get good soup. Soup, you know, and, and I just, that's like a bigger example. But like if you are passionate about doing good things, then your customers even get a better value for the money they give you. Even if maybe your prices are higher and probably are higher than like Walmart or Sheen or H and M or what have you. Because you are actually like a human trying to make a difference.
- [106:42]
B
You know that that is what makes people come back back is that aspect. Because I mean same thing with the ice part. Like we have little zines that instruct people about the different whistling techniques and then we have 3D printed whistles as well that anyone can just have. And there was a customer who saw that those zines and they're like, oh my God, yes. You guys are so awesome. That is why I come here. That is why I support you. And she come in like every week. So sense sometimes multiple times a week either to buy or to sell to me or just to look around. And then it was like an entry point to talking about these things to connect with like minded people. Because I mean I was online for seven, eight years, seven years exclusively. And there's a lot of great conversations that happen online and connections that could be made. But it is not the same as irl.
- [107:41]
A
There is an energy, sure, yeah, absolutely.
- [107:45]
B
We need that.
- [107:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, I feel that too. I mean it's something I think about all the time. Like how can I get clothes horse out into the real world without going broke?
- [107:54]
B
Right.
- [107:55]
A
That's where I am right now. Because I do think that it's really important for us to have that face to face interaction. That's where the real change starts. Now one thing I will say about my work on Clotheshorse and I know it's similar for you With a Slow Air etc, is that doing this work has actually like opened my life up so much and I've met so many amazing new people. I've made so many new friends and built like new relationships. But like I'll tell you, like not everyone who was a part of my life before is, is a part of it now. And I wonder if you've experienced that same sort of thing with the slow era where some of your like friends kind of disappear when you start working on something that you're really passionate about.
- [108:46]
B
Yeah, it's like really painful sometimes.
- [108:49]
A
I've.
- [108:50]
B
I definitely lost friends. I think sometimes when you become more visible and you get more following some people it brings out their insecurities. But also I think think to some folks you just become unrelatable, you know. And it's very backwards to me Because I'm a person. Like, I. I'm so, like, gung ho. Like, I will. When. When I support you, I support you hard. When you're a business who works with me, I will like every single post I see. You know, I will share all of your. But I. You know, one thing I've realized, especially all my work. Work going up, leading up to the slow era and working on my self confidence, was that being your most authentic self only attracts more people who are.
- [109:47]
A
Yeah.
- [109:48]
B
Who have the same values and the people who are meant for you.
- [109:53]
A
I think that is so true, Melina. I was telling you that when I did my live show in Portland, which is where I've lived the biggest chunk of my adult life life, it's where most of my friends, my oldest friends, particularly, live. I was really sad about how few of them came to my live show, and that really hurt a lot. Like. But conversely, first off, my most best friends totally came. And all these new people who have become a part of my life in the past six years of close. Worst way. Which six years is a long time, actually. Like, if I befriended someone six years ago, like, they're. They're in. You know, like, they're. I can count on them. And all these awesome people came who maybe in a weird way, are better friends for me to have. Not in a weird way, in a surprising way, are better friends for me to have because they appreciate me as a person who speaks up.
- [110:56]
B
Yes. I mean, we need people like that because not everyone is comfortable either.
- [111:00]
A
Right. Right. And I think that there were a lot of people in past parts of my life who liked me better. As someone who was really anxious and frightened all the time and never spoke up for myself or anything else, I think that that was a more interesting friend for them to have. Someone who just didn't say anything.
- [111:23]
B
You know, being your smallest self. Yeah, absolutely. Shrinking yourself. And those people are not meant for you. You need people in your life, all of us, who uplift us. And also, you have to be your biggest cheerleader.
- [111:39]
A
Totally, totally.
- [111:40]
B
That's the foundation of everything as well, is like, you know, I'm gonna lock this in. You know, when I. When I did rebrand, I lost friends just when I rebranded. Really? Yes. Before I even opened the store. And there was. I was like, oh, my God, I'm so glad I have been working with Amanda and Courtney because I know that my branding is so strong, and if I had done this without them, I would be questioning everything.
- [112:09]
A
Totally. Totally. I mean, that's why, like, honestly, for some of my clients, I'm just a person who likes. Supports them emotionally. Or I'm like, this is great. I, like, gas them up. I'm like, you can believe in this. Go out, go forth, live this. Right? And I think we all need that sometimes. And sometimes that's someone we just need to pay to do it, because we are. Like, I could share, like, I'm sure, if I wrote a manifesto, which I, by the way, wrote a manifesto for clotheshors that has always been on my website. It's called the Pillars of Clothes Horse, because that helps me make decisions. Right? But I could take something like that to Dustin, and he would be like, this is great. And I would be like, yeah, sorry, you don't count because you, like, really love me. I need someone else to read this and give you feedback, and then I'll be more confident in it. You know, very normal. But, like, I do think, like, I'm. I'm talking about this idea of, like, speaking up and pursuing your passion and, you know, using that passion to make positive impact in the world. I'm. I'm. We're talking about this because it's obviously very important to me, but I know that for many people listening to this, there is fear attached to that. Sometimes the fear is financial, but many times the fear is losing people, of losing friends, of losing followers on Instagram. Right?
- [113:32]
B
Oh, my God, I have lost so many followers and friends, especially on my personal profile, because, I mean, I've always been so outspoken about politics. Like, maybe it's been too much of a part of my personality. I don't know. But it's like, you just have to be okay with it after a while, right? The people who are following Falling Away aren't meant for me. And the more authentic I am, I'm attracting the people who are meant to be in my life.
- [113:59]
A
Totally. Totally. And I think everybody needs to hear that, because I see it all the time on social. Someone will be like, I posted about who I voted for and I lost a thousand followers, or, I posted about why I hate AI and all these people unfollowed me. And I guess my best advice for all of you who are feeling that either have experienced that or have that fear, those people. That's my advice. I. When I. I mean, I think that clotheshorse has done a pretty strong job of being like, here's what my political beliefs are, and I'm a person, and here's what I do, and this is why I do it. But a few months ago, I posted about Being non binary because I was so tired of people calling me lady and girl on social media was like really hurting my feelings a lot. And I posted about it and I'm seriously, within just a few hours I lost hundreds of followers. And you know what? Good.
- [114:48]
B
Yeah, good. Exactly. Exactly. I say like when we, you know, do political posts or whatever or if people don't like it, they're not our customers.
- [114:58]
A
But what will happen is the right people will come to you. And I'm gonna tell you right now, if we're talking about this from a business perspective, a customer who stops shopping from you or unfollows you because you post about, you know, fuck ice or something and they aren't supporting you anymore. They were not a good customer for you in the first place. Exactly.
- [115:18]
B
I'm not us.
- [115:20]
A
Yeah, exactly. The real ones are gonna be like hell yeah, I agree. And they're gonna show up over and over again for you. They're gonna be a better customer. You're gon get new ones. Better ones. People who you can count on where someone who would unfollow you that like a person unfollowing me when I'm talking about all of this like fast fashion as like a case study in social justice. Basically, someone unfollowing me because I posted something political or I posted about being non binary shows me that that person did not believe in any of the I was posting anyway.
- [115:54]
B
Exactly. They didn't even know who they were supporting.
- [115:56]
A
They were just like, I don't know, I like clothes, you know.
- [115:59]
B
Right. Or like one post drew them in and you will have people who are like, no, this is why I'm following you. I actually remember you posted about that on threads, all the followers you lost and I saw a comment said following now.
- [116:12]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
- [116:15]
B
Because it will also draw people in the more you talk about these things. Right. That is people want, want a narrative. They want something to believe in. People are more aware of all of our money going to these evil corporations and billionaires and are realizing that where their dollar is put matters and is political. And they want to support people who share their values. 100 they're more likely to come back as well. Which we've just mentioned.
- [116:46]
A
Yes. Like the value and, and beyond customers. If you're like, I'm never gonna start a business. I just like, I'm afraid to speak out about myself and my values on social media or whatever. I'm gonna tell you right now, you probably are gonna lose some friends and that's okay because new friends are gonna come your way. I mean, this is what I have learned over and over again in the last six years. And I have to tell you that as of now, I have all of these incredible people in my life who are good friends that I can count on, who bring me joy every time I talk to them that I did not have six years ago, who are
- [117:21]
B
genuinely rooting for you in your corner. And how good does that feel?
- [117:25]
A
How good does that feel? And I think probably some of you are listening to this and you know that there are people in your life who aren't rooting for you. Because I can tell you the people who disappeared out of my life when I started working on Clotheshorse. Like, I'm not surprised.
- [117:41]
B
There were signs.
- [117:42]
A
Yeah, there were signs well before that that they always were kind of like shitty to me. Like, I don't know, would like kind of make fun of me a little bit all the time. Or like I had two friends who I remember had stopped following me on Instagram even though they still hung out with me all the time because they thought I posted too much on Instagram, which was maybe like twice a week. Like just like shitty stuff like that. Or the people who show up and are like, hey, remember like 15 years ago when you. You got really drunk and threw up and cried.
- [118:09]
B
Wow.
- [118:10]
A
Like those people who want to only remind you of when you've been at your weakest, like, you don't need that. None of us need that there. We all have people like that in our lives.
- [118:19]
B
Yeah.
- [118:20]
A
I don't know why, I don't know why they're not in our corner, but they just aren't. And that's, that's just how it is.
- [118:25]
B
Because I think what I was about to say, it goes back to the personal work, you know, if you are not, you know, your best, if you're feeling insecure, you're going to project those insecurities on people. If you judge yourself, you're more likely to judge others. And going back to the, you know, fear of being visible and fear of rejection. One of the big things I focused on the year that I rebranded and was building the slow era and conceiving of it was my self confidence practicing every day, not caring what people thought of me. And every thought that came into my brain, like, what if they think this? Another part of my brain would say, let them. Let them think that. That's none of your business. Your business, your job is to put. Is to focus on your life and building a life for you and around your values and if people don't like it, it let them fall away, Let them judge you. And I would say, I don't care, I don't care. And I did care. But I had to keep saying that until I believed it and until I rewired my brain to where that was going to be the dominant thought. And I'll say it still comes up sometimes, right? But it's not, it's not running my life.
- [119:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that like there's something incredible about being true to yourself, you know, maybe sitting down, even if you don't have a business and writing out what your manifesto is for you and using that as like your decision making tool going forward, that I think will do kind of force you to do some like, emotional and social housekeeping. That needs to happen.
- [120:22]
B
Exactly.
- [120:23]
A
And so for anybody who's listening to this, who's like, I would never start a business in my life, that's fine, sit down and write a manifesto this weekend anyway. And honestly, like, I'm just gonna say for anyone who wants to share the manifesto that they write, send it, send it my way. I wanna hear it.
- [120:39]
B
Me too.
- [120:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll like, if I get enough of them, I'll like, I will do an episode where we talk about it because I think that, that we know what we stand for. But like getting it out on paper or into a Google Doc or whatever like is, it's life changing.
- [120:58]
B
It solidifies things.
- [121:00]
A
Is there any final advice, words of wisdom that you have gained over the past nine years that you would like to share with everyone?
- [121:14]
B
I think I've covered most of it in the episode. I think, you know, we were just talking about mindset and I mean, really what you were doing, some people would call manifesting. I know, I know, I know, but some people, that's their realm. But it's like, you know, but I think at the end of the day, you know how you view your failures. Giving yourself grace, your ability to pivot. It has to do with your mindset. When it's like, I'm, I'm gonna do this thing and I'm gonna fail sometimes. And you know, you can't stay in that space where you're just beating yourself up because that's when you become your own worst enemy and learn from it, move on, you know, and then also, gosh, don't give your power away to AI. Whether it's your brain power, your creative ideas, your skills. You mentioned, like, these are the things that make life worth living. Literally, like leaning into your creativity I
- [122:14]
A
mean, that is like not an overstatement at all. I'm glad that you said that. These are the things that make our life worth living, like solving problems and doing creative things and expressing ourselves, taking what's inside us and putting it out into the world. That's where, like, so much of the joy in life comes from. Why would we give that to someone else?
- [122:35]
B
That's how you build your self confidence.
- [122:38]
A
Yeah, I. You know what I think, ma', am, this could be a whole other episode, but I think you just. I had this light bulb moment when you said that, which is like perhaps some of our reliance. And when I say our, I don't necessarily mean me and you. I mean like the collective our. Our reliance or comfort with AI is because we feel a lack of confidence in ourselves.
- [123:01]
B
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
- [123:06]
A
Well, thank you, Melina. This was a delight, as always.
- [123:10]
B
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and talk with you, Amanda. And I hope that people get something out of it.
- [123:16]
A
Yeah, I hope so too. I can't wait to see everybody's manifestos come rolling in.
- [123:20]
B
Yeah. How exciting.
- [123:33]
A
Thank you to Melina for spending some time with us. Fun fact. We recorded for two hours. None of it uploaded to the cloud, and we had to do it all again. So thank you, Melina, for being such a good sport and spending four plus hours recording with me. I will share how you can find Melina and the Slow Era in the show. Notes, please. Go give the Slow Era a follow on social media. I hope that Melina's advice and their story is inspiring you to think about how you can take your values and use them to either like, open your own business or start your own organization, or just make decisions in your own life. Sometimes really difficult decisions. Right. If enough of you send in your manifestos as we discussed, maybe Melina and I can do a special episode where we read them all together. I would love that. So, as I mentioned at the top, this episode was supposed to come out last week, and it actually, as I mentioned also at the beginning, kind of worked out for the best. Because this week some news emerged that is like, so perfect to round out this conversation. I couldn't have written it better myself. According to a report by journalist Lauren Sherman that was published by Puck, Shein is buying Everlane. Now, if you don't know what Shein is is, or you don't know what Everlane is, now is a great time to hit pause and just go do a quick Internet search. The long story short is Shein Ultra Fast Fashion Brand, really bad news for the planet, for the people, for the customers, for everyone. Everlane ostensibly maybe allegedly sustainable, ethical brand. Now, before we continue in the story, I'm just gonna say in the name of transparency and accurate information, I have seen no other official confirmation of this sale. And even like three days after this report was first released, there are zillions of posts all over the Internet about it, social media on every platform, other news outlets are picking it up, blah, blah, blah. They all cite this same report by Lauren Sherman as the source material. And Lauren Sherman is basically saying an insider familiar with the situation. So this is as much as we know. It could be wrong. We might laugh about this in a few days. It could be right. The facts of the story could be wrong in terms of, like, how much it costs, what Everlane's financial situation was, what everlane's value was, etc. But it is not surprising to me that this, this has happened. Like, I am not shocked at all. I have been talking about Everlane's greenwashing for years. For Everlane, sustainability and ethical fashion have always been a marketing message, not a belief system. Everlane is not someone's baby built off of values and beliefs that, you know, would be painful to sell to someone like Shein, who's ostensibly stands for the opposite of what Everlane is. It's not that situation. This is a business being sold to another business who maybe have different marketing messages, but are in the same business and have the same driving values. Now, I was suspecting that Shein would buy a sustainable brand this year. Sustainable being in quotes and with a heavy dose of irony, I assumed, because, you know, Shein has been trying to pursue this IPO for like, I don't know, like a year and a half, two years now. And it has been going very badly, basically because of Shein's horrible environmental and ethical track record. Right? Nobody wants to invest money in a company that could, like, be facing a gazillion lawsuits in the next year. I'm sure that Shein is thinking a lot about how to sort of reform the brand image. But I'm sure Shein is also looking at Quince. Now, Quince is 100% a fast fashion brand, but the prices are slightly higher than Shein and the presentation is ostensibly more premium. I mean, the company even sells caviar for some reason, and allegedly the quality is better, although Reddit tells me otherwise. But at its core, Quince is seen by most people. Trust me, they message me angrily all the time. Quince is seen as this like, ethical, sustainable alternative to Gap or J. Crew, even though it is 100% none of those things. And I think I've mentioned it here on the podcast before, but if I haven't, Quints is absolutely drowning the thrift stores here in central Pennsylvania with its unsold inventory. Like a lot of thrift stores have an entire Quince department at this point. Not like your Goodwill and not really the Mennonite run stores in my immediate area. But once I drive out of Lancaster, Quince everywhere and tons of it tags still on original packaging. It's definitely coming from the Quince warehouse. So Quints fast fashion brand, but seems more premium. I'm sure Shein is looking at Quince and being like, how do we do what Quince is doing? Because then we'll have no problem with this ipo. I thought that, that Shein would end up buying Reformation, obviously. Reformation, another greenwashed fast fashion brand. Most of the Reformation production is now overseas, whereas it was once in the usa. And I think I thought perhaps that was part of getting the brand ready to be acquired by someone like Shein or even, I don't know, like an Urban Outfitters or something. Because those kinds of companies are not going to buy a brand that is producing in the US but they will absolutely buy someone who's producing overseas because it's a lot more profitable. Especially if you're looking for Fast Fashion level profitability, it is a lot more profitable to manufacture overseas. And so I could be wrong, but I could also see someone buying Reformation in the next year. So I thought maybe Sheen would buy Reformation, but instead they bought Everlane. And actually, as I take a step back, I'm like, oh yeah, Everlane is Quince adjacent, right? Like, it makes sense for Shein if they're trying to, you know, rehabilitate their image and hit this, like, maybe older customer who's willing to spend more money. Everlane is perfect now, just like the Allbirds example that I gave in my conversation with Melina, Everlane is just another company that saw sustainability and ethics as a branding moment and a marketing story. Everlane was actually founded in 2011 as a menswear brand that focused on pricing transparency. That was the gimmick. Unlike other brands, customers could come to the site and see how much something cost to make that. That was what the brand was supposed to be. But in the 2010s, that branding strategy didn't have the same power as another growing marketing opportunity. And that was sustainability, right? Everyone was doing it. And so Everlane started to Pivot that way. And while bragging about making rainwear out of recycled bottles or promising to move solely into recycled fabrics, AKA recycled plastic, which is its own greenwashing nightmare. Even though those things are appealing from a marketing standpoint, the reality is that Everlane was also union busting and generally cultivating a toxic work environment. There were numerous exposes. I remember there was a big New York Times report in like 2020, 2021, just talking about how toxic Everlane really was. And for years, more and more voices in the slow fashion space were speaking up about how Everlane was essentially tricking its customers with claims of sustainability. To me, Everlane not much different than Quints or Reformation. These companies that I know are fast fashion, they follow the fast fashion business model to a T, but they just have a slightly nicer veneer in terms of branding and possibly these promises of sustainability. Everlane, just like Allbirds, just like the feminist brand, was not founded with like, you know, social justice or sustainability or ethical manufacturing as its core values. No, its core values were making money, lots of money, growing and growing and growing and becoming profitable. And that's the thing, when you think about it that way, Everlane is a natural fit for Shein because they have the same driving core values. No matter what they might say in email or social media posts. It's growth, it's profitability, and it's growth and profitability at all costs. Right? At the end of the day, no one becomes a billionaire from slow fashion or sustainability. And when your real brand values are making money, lots of money, well, you're always going to compromise any commitment to the planet and its people in favor of profits and growth. Conversely, you might prioritize the planet and its people and say, okay, we're deprioritizing growth makes perfect sense. You cannot have the kind of growth that Everlane and Allbirds and Quince and Reformation were pitching to investors while maintaining sustainability and ethical manufacturing. It's just how it goes. I'm glad to see that big so called sustainable brands like Everlane are taking off their masks and revealing themselves as, you know, just another fast fashion brand with better marketing. I'm glad for that because for too long they have controlled the narrative. And this actually clears some space for the real slow fashion activists brands and small businesses that are out there doing the hard work of sticking to their ethics and building a better future. Because it is not easy. And there are so many small businesses and activists out there, myself included, who yes, we want to make a living, but we also want to protect workers and create good, safe jobs that pay a living wage. We want to reduce waste. We want to skip plastic. We want to build a true circular economy. We want to fight fascism. We want to care for our communities and our animals and the planet. These are all people who are committed to building a better tomorrow. And that, that is their driving core value. The future is human, and we get to decide what the future looks like, even if it doesn't feel like that sometimes. I get that. Right? I totally get that. Step one is figuring out what matters to us, what that future looks like, putting words to all of it and remembering those words, those values, that future, every time we make a decision. As I mentioned at the beginning, when I told you about my disastrous trip, Belle and Sebastian has been a favorite since I was a teenager. On the summer that my partner Ryan died, a few months before Dylan, my kid was born, I really struggled to find any music that didn't just make my grief even worse. So mostly I listened to gangsta rap and Belle and Sebastian and what a blend. And on Dylan's birth announcement, I included some lyrics from one of my favorite Belle and Sebastian songs, like Dylan in the movies. And these words captured exactly how I felt about the last few months of my life. You know, losing Ryan, losing my life in Chicago, the fear and constant pain of grief and childbirth, even how much everything in my life would never be the same after that. There was grief and fear attached to how things would never be the same if you know, you know. And it was almost like by putting these words on a document as tangible as a birth announcement, I was engraving them on my brain. So every time things were just really, really hard, every time I was worrying about money so much, it just made my stomach hurt. Every time I was just so close to giving up, I would sing these lyrics to myself to remind myself of why I had to keep going. And I found myself doing the same thing with closed source. When I'm tired, when I'm sick of dealing with horrible Internet people, when I'm feeling frustrated by the world as a whole, when I find myself thinking it's too bad I care about things so much, because if I didn't, I would probably have more money and less problems. You know? You know that feeling in those moments when I am feeling those things, thinking those thoughts, I go back to these song lyrics. I'm going to end this episode by sharing them with you. Maybe they can be a little mantra for you when you are struggling with how hard it can be. Sometimes it's not always that hard. But sometimes it is to just stick to your values and to stand up for what matters. And I'm going to try my hardest to not tear up while I'm reading these, but know that these four lines. I have so much of a deep emotional attachment to these words that it will be hard for me to read them without tearing up. But maybe, Maybe they will get you thinking about your own values and beliefs and why. Why they matter so much to you. Yeah, you're worth the trouble and you're worth the pain. You're worth the worry. I would do the same if we all went back to another time. I will love you over I will love you over I will love you thanks for listening to another episode of Closed Source Written, researched, edited, hosted all the Things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty as always, if you liked it, please leave a rating. Please leave a Review Subscribe Tell your friends all the things. If you'd like to support my work financially, there are numerous ways you can do that. They're linked in the show notes, they're linked on my website, closed horsepodcasts, and they are in the bio of my profile and every social media platform. Lastly, but of course, never leastly, thank you to my other half, Mr. Dustin Travis White, for really taking good care of me in Mexico City and of course, for our music and our audio support. Bye. Sam.