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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to a Life Uncut podcast.
- [00:08]
B
We overcompensate, right? And like for me, high achiever, debater, school captain, form captain every year, again on the external. I think it comes to a surprise to everyone who hears that I have it because I've just known how to mask it. I would like to think that I am really aware so I can kind of see where I need to make up in other areas where I feel like I'm full, falling short or just so desperately wanting to feel like I fit in. I mean, even in a social sense. Like I was a floater among friendship groups and I never felt that I've ever fit into a core group my entire life. And I even talk about that in the book with friendship and feeling like I've never had a close knit. Like I haven't had my sisterhood of the Traveling Pants crew, my Cheetah Girls, like my cool little group. I've never had that. I've never had one best friend for my whole life. I'm not saying you should. I now know that, you know, those friendships exist in such different ways and it's okay. But I think growing up and especially through adolescence and not having those things even, Even throughout my 20s and my 30s, I've never been a bridesmaid for anyone. Like I just feel like I've never really fit in so snugly or comfortably with any group dynamic. And again, I don't know if that sounds like a surprise because like on a public facing front, like I especially doing good nights and I am like a really positive, outgoing person and I love talking about music, but those are the things that I've, you know, tried to navigate and that I've struggled with and this diagnosis has helped me, I guess, make a bit more sense of that.
- [01:47]
A
Most late age diagnosed ADHD folk have a bit of a moment where all of a sudden the final puzzle piece is put into place and the revelation of what has been going on all along happens. It might be from seeing a video on Instagra, Instagram or TikTok of a list of ADHD symptoms and realising that it could have actually been a list of your personality traits that describe your entire existence. People have asked me when I first had a bit of insight into potentially having adhd and the truth is that I can't really remember. I don't know whether it was because I kind of always had the feeling that it was there and maybe I just pushed it down or if the burnout from ADHD had become so bad that I actually have memory impairments. Today's guest is a little bit similar to me in this way. Brigitte Hustway is an author, presenter, and a broadcaster. You'd likely know her from her days gracing the airways at Triple J or from either of her fantastic books, how to Endo and figuring out 30 now. I was about three quarters of the way through Bridget's latest book, figuring out 30, when I came across this chapter, and I was like, oh, you too.
- [02:46]
B
Like, you too.
- [02:47]
A
And the funniest thing was, is that usually it takes me quite a while to get through a book. You know, I will kind of skim read them. I really like it when they have chapter summaries in them because I can kind of get through it a little bit more quickly. Bridget's book was one of the only books last year that I genuinely read every single word on the page. And I just found the way that she wrote so consumable. And by the time I got to the ADHD chapter, I was like, oh, that must be what she thinks, in a similar way to how I do. And so today I wanted to talk with Bridget about being another late age diagnosed girly who had a lot of the same hesitations as I did about speaking about ADHD publicly. Today we're here to have a chat about our experiences of living with ADHD and not figuring it out until later in life, and how the diagnosis has shifted the way that she understands herself and how she lives. Bridgette, welcome to Clouds.
- [03:35]
B
Hey, Keesh. Nice to be here in these gorgeous, comfy chairs.
- [03:38]
A
It's really nice to actually probably meet you. I feel like you're one of those Internet friends that I've had for a little while now, and maybe it's because I have consumed more of your content that I feel like. I feel like I almost have a parasocial relationship with you.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah. And like the last two times with Life Uncut, it's just been had to be zoom. But we in person, you're real.
- [03:58]
A
It's so nice to see you finally.
- [03:59]
B
Me too.
- [04:00]
A
When was it that you kind of first had the realization, oh, that sounds like me? Like, maybe I have adhd?
- [04:09]
B
Yeah. Well, in a way, I. I resonate with your sentiment of, like, it's. It can be hard to pinpoint the exact moment because I feel like it was in, like, I had awareness because I saw other people talking about it and there seemed to be a bit of, I guess, traction online with people sharing their stories, especially the adults getting diagnosed later in life, the women. But I I do definitely remember being on TikTok, and this lady who popped up on my for you page, I think her name was Emma, and she has, like, a page on. On women with adhd, and she's just sitting, you know, piece to camera, talking about these particular symptoms of being, like, overwhelmed and internalizing a lot of, you know, thought processes and anxieties and being inattentive and even emotional regulation and stuff, and just a lot of things that she was saying, I was kind of ticking off as I was listening to her being like, I've dealt with that. I've dealt with that. The big experience, I think, though, was writing the book. You know, that was the big realization, because the first time that I did how to Endo, like, writing a book is very hard, and I did find how to Endo difficult, but something about figuring out 30 was just so much harder. And it's a different kind of situation in that when I was doing how to endo, I was also working full time at Triple J, So I did have a pretty solid structure to work around. But this time, with figuring out 30, I was in a freelance capacity, so fully in charge of my own schedule. Quickly realized I'm not very good at that and kind of planning out my days and sticking to the plan, I suppose. So, yeah, obviously still figuring that out, but it just was really difficult. And I just. To the point where, you know, I was really questioning being like, why is it so hard this time? Like, I know that the content is different and there's a lot of things I want to get out, but I. I'm waking up, and I immediately feel paralyzed by my thoughts and consequently exhausted by that. So it was just a really difficult process. So seeing that video that this Emma chick posted was one of the big moments. And then I remember having Gabriella Labucci, who came run runner up on Drag Race Season 2, I think, who I know from Ballarat, we used to work at Macca's together when we're like, 15. So good.
- [06:28]
A
Love that.
- [06:29]
B
Yeah.
- [06:29]
A
To RuPaul's.
- [06:30]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So we got a bit of rapport there, but Gabriella was talking about their diagnosis journey and mentioned rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. And I was like, geez, that's a big symptom of mine. And it was just like these little things that kind of started to add up. And I was like, yeah, I need to talk to my psychologist about it. Like, I think I actually have this. I think also.
- [06:51]
A
And from what I've heard anecdotally and what I've Read apparently, again, not a medical expert, but apparently the symptoms for inattentive women get worse as you get older.
- [07:03]
B
I agree with that.
- [07:04]
A
The overwhelm and the burden. I think that that's why there's so many of us that get to, like, you know, this 30, even into the 40s and into 50s, before a lot of us kind of have the puzzle pieces fall into place. Because I guess there's also that debate of if you're living with ADHD and your life's good and the situation and kind of you've got strategies in place. Cool. Like, you're good, you're good to go. It's not really until you feel that overwhelm and that burnout to the point that you're feeling, like you said, paralyzed, and you're feeling like you're unable to do things, used to be able to do quite easily, that I think we actually go in to seek, you know, help for what's going on. So what was the process? Did you go to your psychologist and kind of had it confirmed?
- [07:45]
B
Yeah, it was so funny. I remember it so vividly. I was going in and I've seen this psychologist for a couple of years now. Like, she knows me inside out, but even that, I was like, she's going to think I'm making this up or I'm being dramatic, like, she's just not going to take me seriously. And I think a lot of that kind of stemmed from my endo diagnosis and that taking, like 12 years, you know, to get that confirmation that what I was feeling was actually real and not just something I was making up in my head. So there was definitely a great sense of imposter syndrome, I suppose, even with this person who knows, like, my deepest fears, insecurities and, you know, all those kind of things that you talk about with a psychologist. And I remember going in, it was like a Tuesday afternoon, living in Brunswick in Melbourne at the time, and thought I was coming in with. I was going to buy, blindside her with this, like, revelation or suspicion. But then I walk in and, like, similar to, you know, you're in a chair across from me with a bookshelf behind you. My psych has a rotating, you know, line of books on display. And I go in, and I never had noticed it before until that session that right behind her, behind her left shoulder, there was a book called Women with adhd. And I sat down and saw it, and I was like, I want to talk about that, and pointed at it, and she laughed and was like, okay, what's on Your mind. And I was so nervous and I've never been like nervous in a psych session with her. I'm definitely, you know, as soon as I go in for those things, even if I go in for like a pap smear or whatever, I'm like, let's go. Like, I'm very casual and comfortable about it, but I was nervous and I guess intimidated and I was trying to explain. Yeah, Everything that I'd been feeling. I remember as well, though. I was almost kind of, I was explaining how I was feeling, but then almost kind of coming up with a reason, but. Or maybe it's not that, like, kind of like talking myself down about it or dismissing myself, rather. And yeah, she heard it all. And she said to me, you know, I'm so glad that you brought this up. And I made a note just the other week to talk about this because you just have been saying for quite a long time how hard you're finding this book writing process. So I, I made a note of it. So I'm, I'm glad that it's something that you've kind of become aware of. And yeah, then we, we talked about it and it was just crazy. Like it was such a, a huge session and by the end of it I felt validated, but I also felt really drained and I got really emotional because I remember her saying to me at the end, you know, it's just so nice when you get that validation and even if it's from a psych and you know, obviously, even though you're paying them. Right. But she, again, she knows me so well and that kind of empathy and compassion where she said, you must be so exhausted to, you know, have dealt with this for so long. And then you've been dealing and navigating the chronic illness side of your life for such a long time. But for now this to come into play, it must be so tiring for you to feel like you have to keep up with everyone. And that was what, like, that's when I started kind of crying and was like, damn, that's, that's real.
- [10:53]
A
You know, I just looked into my soul.
- [10:55]
B
Yeah, you're so real for that. And that's exactly how it feels. And like you'd be the same. It has always felt like I am trying to keep up with everyone, but I don't think it comes off as that. I think externally, and that's definitely a thing obviously for women with ADHD and the internalizing aspect of it, but I've always felt like I've had To work like twice as hard to be able to be seen as someone who is somewhat normal, you know, And I think
- [11:25]
A
that that's kind of exactly what it is. You just hit the nail on the head. It's the fact that from when we were grow, growing up, we kind of always had that awareness of like, I'm not quite doing it right.
- [11:33]
B
Yeah.
- [11:33]
A
So how can I be in this situation and how can I show you and how can I prove to you that this is something that I'm experiencing, that I'm feeling and that it's very real for me while also having that fear? Because I had the exact same one. I was like, if I go in and talk to a psychiatrist about this, not only am I paying you $800, but if you turn around and tell me that this is not what it is, is, I've opened this can of worms and now if it's not adhd, I need to then go and figure out what it is. And I know that it's not normal because I don't think it's normal to feel like this. It's progressively getting worse, you know, like I just wanted answers and you kind of get into this weird thing where, like you said, you buffer it with. But if it's not that, you know, like, we can talk about some other alternatives. And I found myself trying to prove to the psychiatrist that what I was experiencing was real and it was a really weird, invalidating experience of itself.
- [12:27]
B
Yeah, it's like, excuse my French, but it's such a mind fuck.
- [12:30]
A
Because such a mind fuck you.
- [12:31]
B
Yeah, you feel like you have to convince them and.
- [12:35]
A
But then you worry about if you try too hard, if they'll think that you're just trying to answer the questions in the way that you're supposed.
- [12:41]
B
Like it's so hard. And I think it definitely comes from a place of that medical misogyny. And especially for women in the context of adhd, it's always been based on young boys and external symptoms. So we just have this imposter syndrome and we're so used to not being believed and having to really prove ourselves. And to the point where it's like, well, I can't be too descriptive with how I'm explaining this because they're going to think that I'm just looked it up and I have memorized something from a website about it that I'm making it up. Yeah, it's awful.
- [13:15]
A
It is. You know, there was this particular line that came from Mel Robbins, who, for anyone who may have listened to the episod that I recorded with Britain Laura for the first episode of Cloud. She's a podcaster and she has ADHD, and she found out in her mid to late 40s, I think she was. She was talking to Oprah and she got quite emotional in this particular section of this video. But it was the moment for me that I was like, that is it. That is what I have been feeling. And she said, there's a lot of my life that I feel like I haven't been present for. For me, this has never run more true than for women with inattentive adhd. Do you relate to that?
- [13:53]
B
I remember about a decade ago, I was working as a travel agent, and I remember noticing then with my memory and just, yeah, inability to be present was declining. And at first I thought maybe, you know, maybe I'm just losing a lot of brain cells. I'm working at a flight center, and we have a pretty boozy culture of, like, buzz nights and stuff. And I'm also in my early 20s, May. That's kind of catching up to me. But it got worse and worse. And I. I honestly look back at that time, there is a period that feels just like I've blacked out. And people that I met during that time, if I saw them now down the street, I wouldn't remember their names. And it's. I mean, it's probably quite bad that I say this as a joke, but I have joked about that I have, like, early, like, onset dementia. Right. And I. But I say it not as a way to just, like, take the piss or whatever, but it's almost me making a joke of, like, how bad my memory is, and it's so that I'm concerned about it and it hasn't got better. And even I notice it now with, you know, conversations that my partner will bring up, and I just can't remember. I can't remember anything of that happening. And I don't know why, but that inattentiveness, you know, I. I mean, I do remember in some aspects in high school, but more so for things that weren't interesting to me. You know, it has to be pretty. I have to be pretty engaged. If it's boring, I'm not going to remember it. It's just going to go over. But now for it to extend to just even general stuff and, and even stuff that I do find interesting, but I don't remember. Like, that's a really terrifying symptom. I. I think it can also make
- [15:36]
A
you feel awful in the sense where, like, if you'll have someone, especially because you're somewhat public facing if you'll have someone come up to you, you know, years and years later and be like, oh, you know, we shared this memory or this experience and this is the last time I saw you, or we were at this party together or blah, blah, blah, and you're kind of standing there like, oh, yeah, yeah. And you've just been in a daze the whole time. You've not kind of put that into the memory bank. Yeah, I've been in those experiences where I've felt like, wow, like, who the fuck do I think I am, you know, to think that those experiences weren't special enough for me to kind of commit them to memory. But I guess in the process of the whole inattentive ADHD diagnosis, it has given me a little bit more grace for myself to not, not, I guess in a way to hope that other people give me grace of the fact that it's not that those experiences didn't necessarily mean something to me, it's just that I haven't been as present for them as what I would have wished to have been.
- [16:32]
B
Yeah. And that's a hard thing, especially like you said, working in this kind of space is that you meet people all the time and a lot of stuff is also done by email. Right. So when you finally do get to put like a face to the email address. I really struggled with that working, you know, in radio and having constant correspondence with managers, publicists, record labels and you see these people out at like industry, you know, events or whatever and obviously they know you because you're on air and yeah, the public facing capacity that you have. I don't ever want it to come across that it's like that because I don't care or that I think I'm too cool or whatever. It's like genuine memory impairment and just really hard to retain things. And I guess that's another thing that I. I'm still kind of figuring out and struggling with in real time with this diagnosis now that I have it. And you know, how I can move forward with it, how I can offer myself a bit more grace with it, because again, and I. I'm very open in saying this and admitting that I definitely have had a degree of internalized ableism with how I go about my adhd, very different to how I go about my endometriosis. And it's something that I need to keep working on, but I don't want people to think that I'm using it as an excuse and I guess that kind of came from a place of when I started seeing a lot of stuff about adhd, which was amazing, to help kind of shape my understanding of it and gain that awareness. But again, it's that fear of it being seen as, like, a trend and jumping on a bandwagon, which is how I never want it to be. And I also remember, even with commentary around endometriosis, it's been coined as, like, a trend, and it's trending, and it's like nothing about it is. You know, trends are meant to be trendy, and then you aspire to the thing. There's nothing about this that you want to aspire to. You know, Like, I love when people can say that ADHD is their superpower. I haven't got to that place yet, and clearly, yeah, have a lot of internalized stuff to kind of work through, but it's hard. I think I always just have this deeply ingrained imposter syndrome with it and how I talk about it. It.
- [18:46]
A
Yeah, I'm passionate about what you said with the whole, like, reason not excuse. And we've spoken about that quite a lot amongst this podcast. I actually think that the way I approach it, because I really am very firmly in the. Do not use this as an excuse for behavior. Like, don't use this as an excuse to treat people poorly and not be accountable for it. And the main reason that I actually feel that way is because I think it over the rest of the community. I think it over the people who are. Are not as privileged to still hold things like jobs or relationships and be able to use ADHD as an excuse, if that makes sense. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that correctly.
- [19:24]
B
No, I get it.
- [19:25]
A
What I mean is that if people use it as an excuse for treating people terribly, everyone else in the community then thinks that people with ADHD all have that personality trait, you know, that they're all going to be the people who treat other people terribly. And so it kind of just. It perpetuates the stigma that already exists about people with adhd. And I just find it so unhelpful. And, like, it might get you out of that particular situation and it might get you off the hook, for one thing, but it kind of creates kind
- [19:51]
B
of like abusing it.
- [19:52]
A
Yeah. And it creates a narrative that everyone else has to kind of live up to.
- [19:55]
B
Exactly, exactly. It's. Yeah, I. I totally, totally agree with that. And ironically, as well, I think for me, and not wanting to use it as an excuse is. Or even Like, I still just feel uncomfortable bringing it up. So if there was something that I did that I forgo or that's clearly linked to it, I still feel scared to say, sorry, I have adhd. And this is why, because I guess I still haven't fully come to terms with it myself. And ironically, it's also the rejection of it. Like that rejection sensitivity of you saying that and someone saying, that's so what? That's not good enough. Or you shouldn't be like that because someone else who has it isn't like that. Yeah, you've actually just helped me realize that.
- [20:43]
A
I think that the type of terminology that I will often use in emails because I'm kind of that type of person where we will work usually for life uncut, Monday to Friday, like really, really, really big hours. So Thursday and Friday I'm looking at Kayleigh, your book publicist, who's standing in the corner, and I'm like, you will probably get quite erratic emails from me on Thursdays and Fridays because I'm trying to catch my tail and I'm trying to catch up. And so sometimes I will say things in emails, kind of being like, hey, sorry, I'm such a scatter brain, or like, things have been super manic and blah, blah, blah. And I will use language that is kind of talking about ADHD without ever actually addressing the fact that this is something that I truly do actually struggle with.
- [21:23]
B
Yeah.
- [21:23]
A
Because I just don't want, again, same as you, I don't want the eye rolling, I don't want the judgment. I don't want people to tell me that it's not real. I don't want to have to kind of face that, that criticism from them or what I would even perceive to be criticism. And I know that you and I both have an issue with it.
- [21:38]
B
Yeah, totally. Like, it's finding the length of language for it, but it's also the identity aspect of it by acknowledging it in like such a way as that. Again, when people say it's their superpower, and I love that for them and everyone is in a completely different place with how they accept it, how they embrace it, and whether or not they do choose to make it part of their identity or not, I'm just not at that place. I even feel that on the topic of like my sexuality, like, I've said it on my podcast, I mentioned it in my book about being pansexual. I don't know, I've just never felt the desire to make it any more known than what I have Previously. So for a lot of people, they don't even know that because it's not like I'm, you know, I'm not posting about it, saying it, you know, at every instance. And not that I have to. I don't feel like. I just don't feel like I need to. But, and, but I, I'm so happy for people who choose to make these things a strong part of their identity because for them that feels empowering and for them it feels good. But, you know, you do come around the times of year where there is like Mardi Gras and pride and stuff. And I don't like, I fit in with any of that stuff because I have that imposter syndrome. And again, I know as I'm saying all this, people probably listening and being like, she clearly has internal work to do. And I know that.
- [22:51]
A
But like, I think, who the fuck doesn't?
- [22:54]
B
Sorry.
- [22:54]
A
If you're listening to this podcast and you don't like, good for you. You've reached nirvana. But I am absolutely not there.
- [23:00]
B
But I think it's important to like highlight those things where it's like, yes, you can get the diagnosis and you can have of, you know, certain sexualities and for some people they can be like, out loud and proud and for some people they can't quite be there. And, you know, I'm in a heterosexual relationship at the moment too, so it's like I've never felt the need to, I don't know, kind of use those things. Which is funny because I feel like at the same time people are probably like, well, we all know that you've got endo. You've been so loud and out with that. But for me, with that, that was my first major diagnosis that had affected arguably a huger portion of my life. And I didn't have a frame of reference for endometriosis. I didn't have anyone that I could look to to help me with that 12 year diagnosis journey. My ADHD diagnosis was really quick in comparison, like within 12 months. You know, 12 months compared to 12 years is a huge difference. And for me to already have a chronic illness to then have another diagnosis, it just wasn't joyful for. And I don't want, I just really don't want to spruik like a toxic positivity thing. I think there is a lot of lessons and there's a lot of silver linings for sure with adhd. And I, I love that it has helped me, you know, dive a little bit deeper into who I am and who I want to be. But there's. I can't hide the fact that there's been a lot of negative feelings and a lot of grieving and obviously a lot of internalized feelings that I need to unlearn. But that's just the reality.
- [24:38]
A
I think it's also a reality because if you're to compare those situations of endometriosis and adhd, endometriosis is a physical condition where you can be cut open, quite literally, and they can point at it and go, that's where it is. That's where the extra cells are growing that they shouldn't be. ADHD is not like that. There's no genetic test. There's no one genetic test anyway. You know, there's Fmris and there's research that's being conducted, but there's no, like, definitive. Take this test. You'll get a yes or a no. We're still working through that process. And so I understand why you have murkiness to it. How did you go about talking with the people closest in your life about your diagnosis? Were you initially very open about it with them?
- [25:18]
B
I remember coming home from that psych session, and Oscar was there, and he always asks, you know, how was it? And, you know, I'll tell him, but this time I remember brushing straight past him and just fanging straight for the backyard. And I was like, it was fine. And he remembers me being, like, so avoidant with that. I just didn't know really how to bring it up with him because I never had even brought up with him. I think that I have it. That would have been the first that he's heard of it. I've. I really kept it to myself and only confided in people like Gabriella, who was on my podcast. And then I had Angie McMahon, who. Who told me a bit about hers. But other than that, I wasn't talking about it in a public sense or reaching out to other people. So it took a little while for me to kind of, again, find the language and that dialogue and to be comfortable with it. And it wasn't that I thought that he was going to be dismissive, but I didn't think that he would be fully understanding because of the general perspective of what ADHD is and what it is for women, which obviously is quite different to how we've seen it growing up, how we've always seen younger boys. Like, literally, I used to think of just erratic boys banging their head against the wall. That was, like, how I understood it growing up. Not this, you know, Inattentive, more internalized aspect. So it took a bit of time with Oscar, with my parents as well. Like. Like, I remember saying it to Mum when I went home one weekend in Ballarat. Yeah. My psych has diagnosed me with adhd and I'm on the wait list to see a psychiatrist. And her first reaction was, what? Really? You don't have that? And it wasn't coming from a place of her wanting to dismiss me. It was coming from a place of her lack of, you know, awareness or education. Because that's what it has been generally, you know, and it's not our fault. It's just been this wider, you know, societal issue, I suppose. Yeah.
- [27:14]
A
Like, understanding that has shifted and evolved a lot.
- [27:18]
B
Yeah.
- [27:18]
A
I also think that, I mean, at least for me, there was an aspect where, when I spoke with my mum about it, and my mum and I are close, I actually still haven't told my dad, so I don't know if he's listening to these podcasts. But I. I relate to the fact that it's not an easy conversation to have with everyone in your life because, again, you just. You fear that judgment. You fear them invalidating your experiences and. And telling you certain things that you're like, I'm just not actually ready to process your perception of what I'm experiencing.
- [27:45]
B
You know, it's also anticipating the emotional labor of it because you know that they're not going to understand and you know that's. It's not their fault. That's just what. What it's been. Been. Right. You know that. And with that, you know, it's going to be upon you to educate and correct them. And I've had my. I've done my time with Endo on that. So come adhd, I was exhausted and frankly sick of doing that labor.
- [28:10]
A
I think also because you're still working it out yourself.
- [28:13]
B
Yeah.
- [28:13]
A
And so you're like, well, I. I'm not at a point now yet where I fully understand it. I don't know whether my mum felt a little bit of guilt. I definitely got angry with her when, you know, we went back over my school reports.
- [28:26]
B
So do you still have them? See, I don't have mine and it's made it so hard.
- [28:29]
A
I find it weird that Mum did have them.
- [28:32]
B
I'm glad she did.
- [28:33]
A
Me reading through them and I spoke about this, I said it was a really. It actually made me very, very upset and really angry. It took me a couple of weeks to get over the anger because I was diagnosed with combined type. So I Have the hyperactive and the inattensive. And reading those school reports, every single one of them said the exact same thing.
- [28:52]
B
No way.
- [28:53]
A
And I kind of turned to Mum and I was like, hey, how didn't you notice. Like, how didn't you notice that this was something that I was really struggling with and had. You have noticed at the time, how different could my life have been, you know? And I think there was an element of me getting angry at her and her probably experiencing a lot of guilt for not, I guess, recognizing that that's something that I could have been experiencing. And again, this is all related to how our understandings of ADHD have evolved. I think it was because, like, I was a pretty academic kid, but I tried so hard, like.
- [29:23]
B
And masking.
- [29:24]
A
Yes. I just was the. Should have gone into acting. If I had a good memory, I'd be able to remember lines and I'd be able to act because I could just put myself in any situation and. And try and be anything that anyone wanted me to be.
- [29:36]
B
Well, you overcompensate. Right. And like, for me, high achiever, debater, school captain, form captain every year, really good at English. So, again, on the external, I think it comes to a surprise to everyone who hears that I have it because I've just known how to mask it. Yeah. And I don't know how I learned that. But how do we learn masking? I don't know. I just. It probably comes from that kind of place of. Of that kind of anxious, Like, I'm very much anxious attachment. And I would like to think that I am really aware, so I can kind of see where I need to make up in other areas where I feel like I'm falling short or just so desperately wanting to feel like I fit in. I mean, even in a social sense, like, I was a floater among friendship groups and I never felt that I've ever fit into a core group my entire life. And I even talk about that in the book with friendship and feeling like I've never had a close knit. Like, I haven't had my Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants Crew, my Cheetah Girls, like my core little group. I've never had that. I've never had. Had one best friend for my whole life. I'm not saying you should. I now know that, you know, those friendships exist in such different ways and it's okay. But I think growing up and especially through adolescence and not having those things, even, Even throughout my 20s and my 30s, I've never been a bridesmaid for Anyone. Like, I just feel like I've never really fit in so snugly or comfortably with any group dynamic. And again, I don't know if that sounds like a surprise because like on a public facing front, like I especially doing good nights and I am like a really positive, outgoing person and I love talking about music, but those are the things that I've, you know, tried to navigate and that I've struggled with. And this diagnosis has helped me, I guess, make a bit more sense of that. But I would love to see my school reports. Mom doesn't have them. But that would have been crazy for you to just, you can see it now so clearly in those little comment sections from your teacher and, and to not be able to understand like why no one else picked up on it when it's literally spelled out for you. But even from the teachers, like, where was their, you know, I'm not like blaming them, but. And hopefully now it's different in schools now that there's more awareness and education. Surely they pick up the cues and might pull the parents aside and be like, have you thought about this? Or you know, but again, if you're really good at masking, it does make it hard. And I was, I'm really fucking good at masking.
- [32:09]
A
You know, I hate that for you. I know you so good at it and I deeply, deeply relate to it. I think for a lot of us that go through particularly late age diagnosis, there is that element of grief and there like it's a super emotional process. And people told me that before I went through it. I was really lucky. My best friend of forever got diagnosed three months before me. So I had like a roadmap of exactly what to expect three months later. And she was like, hey, it was super emotional. And I really had to, to think about a lot of my past experiences and behaviors and why certain friendships broke down and perhaps why certain romantic relationships didn't work out. So I had that knowledge going into it and it was really strange for me. It was quite delayed. Like it was almost like it was three or four months later that this like kind of resent really built into me where I was like, I tried so hard and I was so good at masking and trying to be exactly what I thought people wanted from me. And I was a really trying, trying to prove to everybody that I was good enough and that I was, you know, validated for everything that I was doing, whether that be academics or sports or whatever it was. And yeah, I got really angry. Like I just got to this Point where I think I had to. I just had to process it. Like, I didn't really have any option because I was like, well, there's no point of having this anger. There's nowhere to put it. There's no one to really blame. Like you said, our understandings have evolved a lot, and there's nothing you can do about it now. Now, except for forgive those people and forgive yourself and, like, lighten that load of the way that I would speak to myself and I would criticize myself about certain ways that I kind of naturally was. Did you go through a similar experience of, like, what emotions did you experience once you were properly diagnosed?
- [33:53]
B
Well, I mean, so my psychologist diagnosed me, and then I had to wait about six months to get in with a psychiatrist. I was really scared for that because. Because, you know, the image in my head of a psychiatrist is like, white. I don't know why. White lab coat and clipboard. Like, that's more like science lab, not psychiatrist. But I guess the whiteness of, like, you think of like a psych ward, right? And you think of white. So I was really scared for that. Thankfully, great psychiatrist and, yeah, was able to diagnose me. Like, he had no hesitation. So that was really positive. And I think I just. I've moved through so many different emotions and I still do. Like, it comes and goes in waves. Like, there are days where I feel really positive and I've been able to connect with other people who I know who I didn't realize had it. And it's really good to have those conversations. But I guess, again, I've gone about it really differently in the sense that I, you know, I was writing my book at the time, so I was navigating that in real time. And it did actually cause me to delay, like, the public, the publishing of figuring out 30, because I wanted to process it, but I also did want to write about it. And that was, I guess, my way of processing it, because it wasn't like endo, where I went straight on social media and was like, I've got endometriosis and I'm going to make an Instagram account all about it. I'm going to educate others. Others. I didn't want to do any of that. I was like, I just need to sit with it. I'm going to write about it. Also, you know, in. In this situation was medication. And that was another thing to process because I've never been medicated. You know, I mean, obviously I've been on the pill every now and then, but I'VE never had, like a regular medication to take. And I had previously tried an SSRI for pmdd, and I just had a really bad experience with it. So I was really scared to, like, you know, ponder that with adhd. So I think it was just trying to process. Yeah, what do I do there? How do I weigh all of this up? I remember speaking to Angie McMahon, who, you know, one of my favorite singer songwriters. But for her, she was saying that she was. She kept a lot of it to herself. And what she did was kind of conducting her own study in the sense that she would just try little things about how she could just change her days and see if anything would help with. With her ADHD and how she manages it. And then she'd have that kind of concrete evidence on what would work for her and what wouldn't. And then once she had that, she kind of stepped out and spoke a bit more openly about it. So I kind of adapted a somewhat similar framework. But yeah, the emotions was just a mix of, you know, the days where I felt really determined to kind of make sense of it and move forward with it. But then a lot of grief, like, a lot more grief than endo. With endo, there was probably a delayed sense of grief because I think immediately it was just all so validating. And I was so elated to have that confirmation and bittersweet, but more sweet than bitter. ADHD has been more bitter than sweet for me. And I hope I get to a place where I feel, and I think I will. I'll get to a place where I definitely feel more comfortable with it and more positive. But yeah, the. The process of emotions, although I have had. Had the positive days, I think have been from having the medication too, and actually seeing how. Seeing how much of a difference that has made to how I operate and. But then with that comes the resentment and grief of being like. Would have loved to have that sooner.
- [37:15]
A
Totally. And also the kind of weird complexity of, well, if I take this pill and certain aspects of my personality disappear. Is it a personality? What's a condition? What is my identity? Like, you kind of go to what is life? This weird identity crisis of life. Like, what's me separate to this? If I take a pill, it's kind of different. And I had the same hesitations about medication. I'd previously been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And I was put on an snri. So lesser known that selective noradrenaline RE uptake inhibitor for anyone who doesn't know. And I was a zombie. It was really really, really not fitted to me. And so I was a bit hesitant to kind of be like, oh God, we want to roll this dice again. Like I'm already feeling so exhausted and so flat and so low and so unmotivated and so you know that there's
- [38:01]
B
going capacity to feel worse if it doesn't work and you're like, I don't know if I want to go there again.
- [38:05]
A
Just didn't. I was like, I don't have the energy to pull myself out of that hole again. So I was hesitant but for me meds were absolutely life changing. Still take them. Been really trying to work on the other strategies around the medications so that I'm not as reliant on them and I can pick and choose when I feel like I want them and I don't.
- [38:23]
B
That's the best part. Like are you on five ends? Yeah, yeah. So it's good to know that I can have days not taking it and it's like I went on a over overseas trip for three and a half weeks and I chose not to take it because I was like, well I've lived my whole life without it now and I know I can holiday. Well, I think there's enough going on. It's not like I'm working so I think I can survive without. It was completely fine. There'll be some weekends where I'm like, look, today's a rest day, I don't need to take it. But then sometimes I can see how it actually can really affect my mood and that's I guess going into the territory of anxiety and depression being a byproduct and understanding how much of an impact that has with my ADHD because I had previously been diagnosed with depression. Well, first it was seasonal depression and then it was like the first like I lived in Sydney for a year and I found it really hard. But I think even thinking back then, that was 2018 and seeing how the ADHD played in that because the change, the inability for change and I up rooting a new life and a change of routine and that was terrifying and difficult to, to combat. But yeah, I think the, the mood stuff for me with Vyvanse and again it's different for everyone but for me that's been huge. I can deal with, you know, the rejection sensitivity side of things. If I have a stressful morning where things are coming through on emails and I've been, you know, a job's fallen through, I've been knocked back for something, I handle it and regulate myself a lot better. On Vyvanse than when I'm not. Because if I'm not on it and those things come through, my whole day is ruined. I am in a state of despair and I spiral. And that's probably been the most surprising thing for me. You know, it obviously has sharpened my focus, but I did not think it would be so huge on my mood.
- [40:15]
A
There's a lot of psychiatrists and like professionals that are researchers in the space that say the. The number one thing that people with ADHD struggle with is not attending tension. It's emotional regulation.
- [40:25]
B
Yeah.
- [40:26]
A
And it's that ability to kind of bring yourself back from these really big emotions. You know, I used to say to my friends that I felt as though everything I felt had a wavelength of 100 and minus 100.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah, you feel in a big way.
- [40:40]
A
Everything. Every single thing. The highs and the lows were as full on as they could get. And yeah, the highs were absolutely incredible. They were high, but the lows were so debilitating. And so now that I'm on medication, I feel as though that wavelength has halved.
- [40:56]
B
It's a balance.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah. Which kind of sucks. The highs definitely don't feel as perky and they don't feel as buzzy, but it's brought me to a sense where I feel a lot more calm and like a sense of internal peace with the rejection sensitive dysphoria. That was the biggest light bulb that I had throughout my entire diagnosis process because I didn't know that I felt more than what other people seem to feel. I didn't know that I was like super, super sensitive to criticism and. And that I would receive things in a way that people didn't intend, you know, and I just had absolutely no awareness that I was different in that way. Were you similar?
- [41:30]
B
Yeah. And mine would take me to a place like, to the extent where whole new narratives were made up in my mind where I literally think everyone hates me. And it comes from the tiniest, the tiniest thing of like, I can't even think of an example, but like a tiny thing that your rejection sensitivity just blows up and it just takes you to another place where it never ever was meant to be. You know, that I take things so personally and again, good at masking it, but internally ugly place. It can be a. And it's so. It's sad. It's sad to have that happen. It's sad to make that realization because you do feel really sorry and sad for yourself. You're like, why? You know, like, ease up, girl. Like, God, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to kind of get out of, to get out of it. But again, you know, you said with, with regulation, my 20, 25, like I never have resolutions, but this year it's operation regulation and I need to come to this whole state of regulation and it's, you can see like the knock on effects of being able to achieve that. You know, it's like, yeah, obviously your mental health and your ability to focus, but it's things and, and obviously processing emotions. But for me that has been, you know, I have to treat every day and make sure I'm doing things to tick off that are going to get me a step closer to regulation and just how that can, I guess, improve my overall well being and then how I show up for work, how I show up for relationships, how I can, especially in like a romantic sense because, you know, I, I'm very much more of an anxious person. Oscar. My partner is a lot more secure. Must be nice, must be nice. Like, can't fucking relate. And it's hard to navigate, you know, it's really hard to navigate and how we communicate and express ourselves differently. I'm so, although I'm internal with a lot of ADHD stuff with him, I'm so external with expressing my emotions.
- [43:37]
A
I think that's nice though because that kind of shows me that you don't feel like you have to mask around him.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah, except for when I got the diagnosis, I guess. But now it's, I'm able to kind of say it, you know, it's because of this or whatever. But I still do hold that kind of fear that he just doesn't understand and I don't know, you know, I don't. Yeah, I don't really know how to kind of go about that because he's never done anything to, you know, make me feel that way. But I think it's probably just because he's more secure and just.
- [44:13]
A
It could be that. There was also a research study. I quoted it in a previous episode. It was conducted, it was like quite a long time ago. I think it was 2010. But basically they estimated that by the age of 10, neurodiverse kids or undiagnosed ADHD kids will hear 20,000 negative criticisms of their behavior. And this is by age 10.
- [44:34]
B
Yeah.
- [44:34]
A
So I think that, you know, you asked me before, like, where does this masking kind of thing come from? And that that's my current theory is that when you get so used to hearing negative things about the way that you are and the way that you behave and you kind of show up to life. You try to find ways to. To fit in. And so you kind of dull certain aspects or you might, you know, shape something in a little bit of a different way or you'll try something different. If that worked, you'll keep doing that. You. I think that that's how the masking starts. And for me, it was a really nice process to, To. To kind of realize. And this is, I guess, one of the really positive things about the diagnosis and about unpacking. A lot to do with ADHD is that I had previously considered myself a super extroverted person. And when I got medicated, I was like, I wasn't a extrovert. I was a people pleaser. And I thought that people wanted me to be extroverted, so I acted extroverted and I went and I did things. Whenever someone wanted me to do an activity, I would be there and I would go and I would do it with it. And it kind of made me quite resentful of some of those friends friendship, because they felt like unidirectional.
- [45:38]
B
Yeah.
- [45:39]
A
And the diagnosis and for me, the medication, not for all people, but definitely for me, it kind of gave me the ability to zoom out on that a little bit and be like, well, hang on a second. What do I want out of this interaction? You know, like, and. And stop feeling that need to just be what everybody else wanted from me. And that was a real relief. Like, it took me a little while to get there. It probably took a year, half a and a half post diagnosis, until I was really like, oh, that's a boundary. That's weird. I've never had one of those before. And that has been a really positive part of the diagnosis for me.
- [46:13]
B
Yeah, well, with the whole introvert. Introvert. Like, I think working in media, everyone just assumes that you are extroverted. And again, like, when I was doing good nights and because I loved the job and I was so passionate and on air, you could hear my smile, you know. Yeah, that does kind of. That outgoingness does come naturally, but I always is like, I actually hated going to like a gig straight after radio because it was just loud and too much and I needed to sit in silence. And I'm always a person who I try to get somewhere early so I can sit in my car and just have that, you know, I can build myself up to go and do the next thing. Because shifting environments is, like a really big thing for me in my days.
- [46:53]
A
I Think they call that transition phases, like the actual, like behavioral. Yeah, it's spoken about a lot in ADHD regulation work how like, we actually, actually struggle with the transition phase. Even things as simple as. Like, there's this joke, you know, when you come home at the end of the day, if you've got stuff to do, don't take your shoes off because once you get into the transition of I'm now sitting on the couch, you really struggle to get up.
- [47:14]
B
There's no going back.
- [47:15]
A
And, you know, if you have to go and have a shower to go and do something, you'll struggle with that transition. It's like a quite a good strategy that you've developed for yourself to give yourself that time and that space. Space to unwind.
- [47:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I've done that, like throughout my whole life. But working in, in, in media, like, I think just everyone does expect you to be outgoing and then you make those realizations, especially when you get older. Like, I am so. I'm so introverted and I love, like, I can be at home alone, no worries. You know, my social battery can get so drained. And I'll always say it's my kettle curfew, like, time for a tea. And I'm known as a nana, which I am. I love nana life, but I just get really tired and, you know, my cup gets filled quite quickly on that front. And if I stay out too long, I am exhausted by it. Like, I'm way overstimulated and overwhelmed and it can take days to recover, you know.
- [48:11]
A
So this year of regulation. Yeah. What did we call it?
- [48:14]
B
Operation Regulation.
- [48:15]
A
Operation Regulation. We'll have to call the episode that.
- [48:17]
B
Yeah.
- [48:18]
A
What other things have you kind of. Of employed to try and get yourself to that relaxed, calm state?
- [48:26]
B
Well, I hate to say it, but they weren't lying. If you get up and go for a walk, don't you hate it?
- [48:32]
A
You had a neuroscientist in the podcast who was like, going for a walk outside in nature is really good for your dopamine. And I was like, oh, yeah, it sounds about right.
- [48:40]
B
I am sad to share that. It's true.
- [48:43]
A
Yeah.
- [48:44]
B
So especially living in wa the and being in some summer, it's amazing to get up early. I mean, the sun falls, the sunrise is so early over there. But to get up and go straight for a walk, music in. Then we'll go to the beach for a little dippy. And I feel amazing. I mean, obviously pop the vivance do those things. And I feel if I do that, that sets the tone for my day. If I don't do that, it's really hard to kind of, yeah. Really get into the groove and be productive on that day. So those are the things I do to stay. Start off, I think, as well. I mean, I need to get better at it, but diet and hydration, for sure. Like, it really is just like a whole body thing. And I even, like, I've been having a lot of skin care issues recently, and I. I know that it did stem from, like, a reaction to a product, but I think that was like, the tipping point, I think for me, especially in the last 12 months and even writing the book, you know, like, so proud of it. And I've loved the experience, but it's also been deeply stressful and me not being able to regulate that as well as what I would have liked to my body. You know, I'm a big believer of, like, your body is trying to tell you something and it will often show up in your skin or maybe in your teeth and your gums and, you know, those stomach issues and that kind of thing. For me, I think, you know, this skin issue that I've been dealing with has actually come from a lot of, like, dysregulation and like, gut stuff. So I need to kind of treat that. And I'm still. Still figuring it out, but it's just kind of trialing these things and. And sticking with the things that I know that have, like, an instant reward or impact, like my little morning routine. But yeah, those are the kind of, like, the main things. And obviously, you know, even journaling, because again, with regulating my emotions, if I think something, I can let it build up so quickly and easily, but if I get it straight out onto paper, it's like a release and I, you know, don't feel as overwhelmed by it or that I'm about to burst and like, you know, Oscar might cop, like, the brunt of it or whatever, but if I'm able to get it even just down on paper and then read through it and be like, it's not that bad, or I can see it a bit more clear and be like, well, you're feeling this way because of this. You know, sometimes if you keep it in your mind and it just can. Yeah. Take you to all sorts of places and just can blow up in a way that it doesn't need to. So those things, obviously, still seeing my psychologist and yeah, I think just doing things that feel good and making sure a big thing. For me, turning 30 was kind of establishing values and like, what I really want, you know, moving forward into this decade. And those have been, like, fun and inner peace and just figuring out what that looks like for me and always just keeping that kind of front of mind. So I think that's what I've been, yeah. Really striving towards. And. And I'm sure I'll pick up other things along the way, but, you know, and as. As much as Vyvanse has helped us again, it doesn't just start and end with that. There's so many more things that you can take on to look after yourself. And I think at the end of the day, it is just about, like, look off, you know, looking after yourself. And, you know, we can't be cured of it, but we can still, you know, live a fulfilling life with it. Like, I don't want it to hold me back, but, yeah, it just takes a bit of work to kind of get to that place where you can really feel confident in being able to move forward with it. Because that's the thing. Like, the diagnosis is such a huge. Such a huge moment. And then sometimes we often forget, oh, now what?
- [52:05]
A
Now I've got to do something with this. Yeah, we've opened the can of worms. Kind of got to unpack it.
- [52:09]
B
Yeah. It doesn't mean. It just, you know, you get that's it. Like, you're here with it for life, 100%.
- [52:15]
A
Right. And I think for a lot of us, like, the silver bullet of medication and it wears off kind of quickly. For me, it was about three months. I thought that I was like, if this is how my life, the rest of my life is going to be, this is bliss. And then the effects of that kind of started to soften, and I realized that actually I was going to have to do a bit of the work.
- [52:33]
B
Yeah.
- [52:34]
A
And that was, like, truly, that was the whole reason that we wanted to create this podcast. Because I was so hesitant to do this at first, I openly admitted with Britain Laura, that I was like, I don't want to make this my whole personality. I don't want to open myself up to criticism for people who experience this condition in a different way to how I just do. I also don't want to be the voice of something that I don't wholly understand and, like, scary also. I'm just not sure if I'm ready to be the person who everyone's going to turn to, to kind of be like, did you experience this, too? And blah, blah, blah. Because, like, it's a lot to take on for other people going through the process. And I'm sure you went through that a lot with endogram and, like, doing this endometriosis awareness stuff. I read about it in your book, and I just thought, because I read the book before we'd released the podcast, and I was like, do I. Am I sure that I kind of want to put myself in this position? But the other side of that coin is that I've been able to speak with amazing people. And I'll never forget Mark Manson, who wrote the Subtle Art and not giving a saying, it's just about finding out what works for your brain. Because none of the productivity advice that he had listened to from experts had worked for him. And so he was like, if everyone is saying that, this is what works for them. If meditation works for everybody else and it doesn't work for you, it's not for you. Stop trying to medicate. Stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole and just try and figure out those things. Things that do work for you. I've not yet been able to start the journaling kind of process. I don't know why. I just have such a. A roadblock when it comes to it. I don't know.
- [54:02]
B
Another task as well. And you find reading hard, like, writing as hard as well?
- [54:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I have really tried to focus on other things, like getting good sleep. That was a massive one for me. And making sure that I have little novel activities, you know, like go and do pickleball. Look, I did a. An escape room a couple of weeks ago with some friends, just because I remembered that, you know, the version of me before I realized it was adhd. I sought out so many experiences that were novel and that were new and that were exciting, and that led me to some pretty dark places as well. And so I've realized now that I still. I still have that need for novelty, but I can get it in other ways.
- [54:41]
B
Yeah.
- [54:42]
A
So that was why we wanted to create this podcast and have conversations with people like yourself. I'm so grateful for your openness and your vulnerability. Like, I actually do know that this is. It's a hard thing to talk about. Not in the sense where it's like, oh, it must be so hard for you, and your life is so hard. That's not what I mean. I mean, more so that it's a hard thing to kind of re. Shift your narratives about. And also, you're putting yourself in a position where you have to be open to the fact that other people have different narratives about this thing that you're experiencing. And that can be confronting.
- [55:13]
B
Yeah. And you know, going back to the endo style stuff, like being so vocal on that front, you know, and I don't regret it because I'm so glad that I've been able to be that person for others, but just knowing how draining and taxing that can be. But if you're setting something up like this, like, you've clearly, you know, established boundaries with what you want this to be, like, you know, the intent, you know that this isn't like the authoritative voice on the go to, but it's just to create a space where people can share their ranging experiences with adhd. And that's what it is. And, and it is. So I would say it's more ranging than something like Endo, because, you know, with Endo, for me it's been like raising awareness and ensuring that people are getting the right surgery, the right treatment, because people are not being treated correctly. It's a little bit different with ADHD because, yeah, again, it's not like a physical tissue that's like sticking your organs together. Like, you know, that's a pretty straightforward thing. Like, you need to get the right removal tissue technique for that. But with ADHD and regulation, that looks so different for everyone. And, you know, journaling may not work for you and you know, for me it does work. But let's say, for example, finding a new little novelty may not work or, or even listening to podcasts, you know, extensively. Like, I've tried to listen to more on like, on nervous system stuff, but. And I'm interested, but for me, I would rather read about it than listen because my inattentiveness for like, audio can often be harder, I guess. Like sometimes I need to physically see it. Like, I'm an old school person. Even with interview preps, I need to like, physically handwrite notes and stuff. And that's how I remember things. I think it comes from debating, like in green Highlighter, like, I'm very much back to high school for that stuff. But it's different for everyone and I think that's, yeah, certainly just the main kind of takeaway. And, and for you as well, when you're raising awareness and just making sure you're not running yourself into the ground and having those boundaries, you know, broken because it's easy to do. But when you care deeply about it and you just want other people to have, you know, you want other people to have a slightly better, easier experience
- [57:24]
A
than you, and I want for them to feel the relief that we also experience you know, like I, I actually truly do want that for everyone who is living through the burden of adhd. But yeah, it's not a one size fits fits all.
- [57:35]
B
No.
- [57:36]
A
So I'm super, super grateful for you sharing your experiences. Thank you for writing about it because I wouldn't have known. I would have just wondered why I really enjoyed your book and was able to read the whole thing but it turns out it's really good for neurodiverse minds. Bridget's new book, figuring out 30 you can get it anywhere that you get books. Did you do an audiobook?
- [57:53]
B
Yes, narrated by me. So it's basically like a very long podcast.
- [57:57]
A
I would love that because I'm an audiobook girl. Like I'm the podcast listener audiobook style. All of Bridget's details will be listed in our show notes as well. And thank you so much so so so much for joining me.
- [58:07]
B
Thanks for having me, Keesh. I'm glad that we got to.