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- [00:01]
Bill Maher
Rula is a healthcare provider group that actually connects you with licensed therapists and psychiatrists who take insurance. Over 120 plans, by the way, so people are paying on average around 15 bucks a session this Mental Health Awareness month. Don't just think about your mental health, actually take the step to take care of it. Visit rula.comrandom to get started. That's R U L A dot com random. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
- [00:37]
Debra Soh
This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com, own the dream.
- [01:05]
Bill Maher
Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case.
- [01:10]
Debra Soh
We're gonna crack this case and prove we're the greatest partners of all time.
- [01:14]
Bill Maher
New friends.
- [01:15]
Debra Soh
You are Gary Da Snake and your last name? Desnake.
- [01:19]
Bill Maher
Dream Team Hidden new habitats. Zootopia has a secret rep. How population. You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home. You're clearly working at Zootopia 2. Now available on Disney Plus. Rated PG. While you're remodeling your backyard to make it more, you know. Zen E. We were remodeling our merch store to make it more random. We've slapped our new logo on T shirts, tie dyes, hoodies and hats. And all with premium printed labels. Look, I wasn't kidding. We have it. Because tags are like the junk mail of clothing. All merch is available exclusively@clubrandom.com. once again, that's clubrandom.com does that happen in your social life? Oh, yeah. Really? Are there men who like, won't go near you? Club Random because you won't go. The same thing they say with me. And I'm not.
- [02:20]
Debra Soh
Because I'm saying that girls shouldn't be cutting off the.
- [02:22]
Bill Maher
Yeah, just right. Just because.
- [02:24]
Debra Soh
Club Random.
- [02:26]
Bill Maher
Deborah.
- [02:28]
Debra Soh
Bill, hi. Oh, my goodness.
- [02:32]
Bill Maher
Nothing goodness about this place. How you doing?
- [02:35]
Debra Soh
It's nice to see you.
- [02:36]
Bill Maher
You remember being on Real Time?
- [02:37]
Debra Soh
Oh, I remember.
- [02:39]
Bill Maher
You say it's like, was it bad?
- [02:41]
Debra Soh
No, I loved it.
- [02:42]
Bill Maher
It's just memorable.
- [02:43]
Debra Soh
One of my favorite memories.
- [02:44]
Bill Maher
Your hair got darker.
- [02:46]
Debra Soh
Yeah, my hair got darker. I'm not a Natural blonde, actually.
- [02:48]
Bill Maher
You what?
- [02:49]
Debra Soh
I'm not a natural blonde,
- [02:52]
Bill Maher
okay? How dare you. But. Well, sit back, enjoy yourself.
- [02:57]
Debra Soh
I'm excited to be here.
- [02:58]
Bill Maher
Oh, good. I'm thrilled to have you. Did you, by the way, see the sex doll in the bathtub? And the Whitney Cummings sex doll?
- [03:07]
Debra Soh
Yeah. I was telling your team I love
- [03:08]
Bill Maher
it because you're the first sex neuroscientist we've had on the show. The first one I've ever heard of in life. I mean, it's right on the COVID of your book. Sex Neuroscientist, that's quite a title.
- [03:26]
Debra Soh
Yeah. And thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for reading the book.
- [03:31]
Bill Maher
Oh, yes, it's very, very topical. I mean, there's certainly a lot of wrong things going on in the world. So I don't know if people think it's indulgent to put sex right at the top of the list, but it could be. I mean, the kids aren't fucking. I. I did last real time with our comedy bit in the middle, was about spring break. And, you know, I keep reading these articles. You know, I said, they're like the Pandas. We. We can't get Ling Ling and Choo Chow to fuck. I never thought I'd be reading these headlines about kids aren't fucking. Yeah, but I guess that's what you're. I mean, that's really the whole thrust of your, no pun intended, of your book is, you know, what's. Why aren't people fucking like they used to?
- [04:24]
Debra Soh
The wild thing, too, is not just are people not having sex, but they take pride in it. And they're saying, like, women are saying, we don't need men, we're fine on our own. And men are saying, the sex robots are coming. We have our AI girlfriends, so we don't need women either. And so they're actually taking this like a point of pride instead of saying there's something really wrong going on here, we need to fix this problem.
- [04:44]
Bill Maher
Right. I mean, there is. Yeah, you're right. This. I mean, there were certainly always times when people didn't fuck for whatever reason. I mean, if you had met me in high school or college, you'd have met. You know, I was. I was not an. Well, I guess I was what they would call an INCEL now, because INCEL stands for involuntarily celibate. It certainly was involuntary on my part. I didn't want to be celibate, but I certainly. Maybe at the time, not so much. But I think even then certainly not that much later understood that the reason why I wasn't getting laid was me. I didn't. Today, it seems like what goes on is this hostility that I'm not getting laid because you're a bitch, or I'm not getting laid because you're a fucking loser. And that kind of hostility about it, I think is a new dimension. Maybe you know the history. I'm sure you do better than I.
- [05:51]
Debra Soh
I think social media is a big part of it. But what's really good about, say, your situation is that you recognize there's something about you, or maybe that you wanted to work on things to attract the types of partners that you wanted to have. I mean, well, look at you now, right? I'm sure you have no issues at all. And whereas you look at the younger generation in particular, or I would say the men, when you come to the table with that type of animosity, women are definitely not going to want to be sleeping with you. Again, with women, if you're coming in and both sexes are blaming each other, that's not going to make people want to have sex with you, have a relationship with you. And then it's also not going to make you have the insight to say, what am I doing wrong here? Instead, you're just going to keep doing the same thing. And then with social media feeding you this constant stream of content that is further polarizing the sexes. This is why I think it's gotten to the point where it is so bad. Then you have these replacements like you're mentioning the sex robots, sex dolls, the AI companions, pornography. And then women are doing so well in society economically that they're saying, oh, I don't need a man either. I can just work and buy my own things. I think, you know, that's great. The women are doing so well. But another thing I talk about in the book is this issue with hypergamy and how that clashes with diversity, diversity initiatives.
- [06:58]
Bill Maher
Hypergamy.
- [06:59]
Debra Soh
Yeah, it's that women tend to like to marry up.
- [07:03]
Bill Maher
Oh, hypergamy, Yeah, I remember that word. It's funny when you. They say when you don't know a word, you go past it, once you learn it, then you see it like 10 times in the next week.
- [07:18]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you're hearing it all the time now.
- [07:21]
Bill Maher
Hypergamy. That's a great word. So marrying up. Well, yes. I mean, how can you marry up with this? I mean, look, I completely understand women's complaints about men today. I mean, I hear the complaints from women. I know, you know, I Mean, if someone says to me, what's your secret with women? My answer is other men. It's not hard to look better. I mean, these kids, they couldn't find the clit with an app, and they need one. I did a thing on this show, YouTube tutorial. I did a Ted Talk. Not a real one. It was a, you know, a bit we did. But I dressed, you know, just like they do with the sneakers, and it was really funny. And, you know, what if I told you? Because that's how they always start. What if I told you that you could get laid? And then I was just instructing the younger men. Game. They don't have game. They don't know. They don't even know what it is. I don't know if they even aspire to it, you know, but just basic things. Don't wear shorts. Right.
- [08:29]
Debra Soh
You know, like, iron your shirt. That would be my choice.
- [08:32]
Bill Maher
Iron a collar.
- [08:32]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [08:34]
Bill Maher
You know, trim the hair on your nose. Just like basic, you know, it's such a basic thing. Basic things that they don't seem to think they need to do. They think they can be this slovenly person and that. That. I don't know. What is. What's that term when guys, like, purposely kind of are mean to girls?
- [09:01]
Debra Soh
Oh, negging.
- [09:03]
Bill Maher
What is it?
- [09:03]
Debra Soh
Negging. It's when they insult a woman with the belief. This is like red pill ideas where men think that if they insult women that the women are gonna like them more.
- [09:12]
Bill Maher
Well, I don't know where they got that word, but I'm not going near it, okay? I know the world I live in, Deborah, okay?
- [09:22]
Debra Soh
I can say it for you every time you want me to say you
- [09:24]
Bill Maher
quits at me, But I've seen them. I've seen people go after worse or better or whatever. Go after shit. I don't need trouble. I got Trump up my ass again this week. I don't need. I don't need. I don't need more beef.
- [09:40]
Debra Soh
I was gonna say, part of that I do believe is porn. And the fact that Gen Z in particular. So Gen Z, is roughly age 31 and younger, 31 to 13. They were exposed to porn at such a young age. And everything they know about sex is from watching online pornography, which is very different today from, say, you know, back in the day in magazines or even online porn. That is not so extreme like what we see today. And so when you have that. And that is how you learn about women, say, or some women are learning about. Or girls are learning about boys that way. So they Think, well, I can have an orgasm. I don't have to go through the process of talking to someone approaching strangers, especially Post. Me too. They don't have to, like you said, you know, trim their nose hair or look decent or have social skills. And it's a very. You know, it could be a replacement for sex in that you're still getting that gratification.
- [10:34]
Bill Maher
Trust me, no one knows better than I do from my formative years when I was too shy and lame to get with a girl. It is a substitute for sex. Thank God it exists. Masturbation. Or else I would have just exploded. I mean, during my most horny years, that's all I was doing, was masturbating the whole time at Cornell. Cornell was a terrible place.
- [10:59]
Debra Soh
Would you go to. Would you be, like, looking at it in class or. I'm just kidding.
- [11:03]
Bill Maher
No pornography.
- [11:04]
Debra Soh
That's what boys are doing today.
- [11:05]
Bill Maher
Though I barely had anything to look at. I don't even remember getting. I didn't think I had Playboys. I mean, that's what we had back then, Playboys. But I didn't. I don't. I don't know. I wasn't. I didn't. I didn't have the money to go to the newsstand, which didn't exist, as I recall, and buy a Playboy in Ithaca, New York. No, I think I was doing it from just what I saw around me. You know, you didn't need a lot, you know, dick hard. Get hard if the wind blew.
- [11:34]
Debra Soh
So you get like a catalog. Even like a PG catalog. I've heard men in the past would do that, you know, because it wasn't, like, so easily accessible.
- [11:40]
Bill Maher
Now, look, I would be a perfect. Please use me as a case study because I can take you all the way from the late 60s when that's all we had was Playboys. And Playboys barely showed. I mean, they were starting to show. I mean, certainly in the 50s. That's before my time or early 60s. Very often they would just show a girl kind of from the side. I mean, we show more now in perfume man. Yeah, but by the time I was looking at it, like maybe I was 12 in 1968, okay, they had. But no pubic, yet half went through this in the early 70s. He was going. He had to make this decision. He was, you know, it was mostly advertiser driven. It's a magazine in the 70s. He was going to lose the American car accounts. Ford and Chrysler were not going to advertise the Skylark in a place that showed pubic Hair. There are just some things American industry will not stand for.
- [12:43]
Debra Soh
Standards.
- [12:44]
Bill Maher
Standards. But eventually he had to give in because he was being challenged by Penthouse, which had no qualms about that. But I. So you. I would go back to, you know, when I was first looking at it. It was just ones somebody stole, a neighbor kid stole from their father. And we looked at it in the woods and we buried it really like badgers or something. We buried. Then we'd dig them up. It'd be all wet from the rain, but we would see. And the little list thing that we saw and that's to all the way to now, which, you know, like any normal red blooded American male, I look at pornhub. But even that's fairly recent in my life. I stuck with the magazines a lot longer than most people because I was kind of afraid, like, if I go on this pornhub thing, will they know? Is there a cookie in there? Can they come and say I. And then of course I gave in. But that's really within the last 10 years, maybe even five years. But I see what's on there and it is astounding to me, some of it. But I know this whole history, this whole history. So you can ask away anything. I'll tell you the difference between now and then.
- [14:04]
Debra Soh
Yeah, well, I should say, because when I was on your show last time, I was a columnist for playboy.com and it was one of my first regular calls. And I will always be grateful to Playboy for the opportunity because, you know, I was just starting out and my views about pornography were very different back then. And I still think to some extent, for someone who grew up pre Internet porn, probably not as affected by it as, say, these younger kids now, who they are looking at it quite literally. I've heard cases of kids at age 4 seeing this. Usually it's by accident. They come across it the minute they get a smartphone, they can see it, right? And so even before their first sexual experience, before they even have early crushes or their first kiss, they're seeing this. And it's terrifying for many children, but they think this is what sex is. They know it's taboo. They have a vague idea of what it is. And so then kids are learning from it, what they're supposed to do during sex, how they should treat the opposite sex. It's also leading to young kids having all these cosmetic procedures to make their bodies look more like porn stars. But I'm curious for you. The first time you started, I'm sure you've seen more of the extreme stuff. And what is.
- [15:05]
Bill Maher
I haven't. Oh, no, I don't think. I think there's much more extreme stuff. I mean, certainly anything German. And I've never gone there. I mean. And again, I think this is because I started at such an innocent place. I mean, you mentioned Playboy in the same breath as pornography. I guess, yes, technically it is. And certainly in its day, it was the tip of the spear.
- [15:30]
Debra Soh
But it's so different.
- [15:30]
Bill Maher
Use the term of pornography. But now it's. I mean, please. It's the tamest thing. It was just the girl next door
- [15:39]
Debra Soh
and, you know, and she's happy. She looks like she's happy. She's enjoying it.
- [15:43]
Bill Maher
And there was no men in the picture. I mean, I certainly even remember from the magazine era of the 90s, we're going back 30 years, and you could go to the newsstand. Certainly. When I lived in New York, there was still newsstands in the mid-90s when I started doing Politically Incorrect. And I lived in New York for a few years, and the newsstand was. There was like, dozens and dozens of porn magazines of every. I mean, I remember going to Larry Flynt's office and he had on his desk like, all the. He had many publications beside Hustler, and they were all, like, laid out on his desk very neatly. And there had to be 30 different brands, you know, Jugs and Gentry and Shaved Asian and, you know, Motorcycle Girls. Every sort of niche thing had its own. Yeah. Had its own magazine. And so, like, you could go to the newsstand almost every night and buy another stroke book, you know, and. But it was. And even then in the 90s, they started to put dicks in ads. I think they just had a photographer on the set of porn movies and they got the stills and that became. But I mean, it was, you know. But it was still a picture, you know, and you could only get so disgusting or rapey or, you know, abusive. But the videos. I mean, I've said it for years, as someone who is a known libertine, I don't think porn is benign at all. I mean, I am totally with you on this because I see. And again, I don't think I've gone near the frontier of it. My stuff is very vanilla. But first of all, I see what's. And they. I guess they. It must be like anything in algorithm where they feed you what you like and they know what I like. I just like hot chicks, you know, I don't want to see them abused. In fact, I don't want to see the guy in it at all. Very often it's just a girl acting sexy for the first five minutes and then the guy comes in. Once he comes in, I'm out. Like, you know, I don't need the guy in the guy. I'm the guy. Who is this guy with my girl? Honey, I thought we had something going. And then this guy walks in the room. You know, it's ridiculous.
- [18:11]
Debra Soh
I heard you ask aloud in another episode why guys are into women abusing them. And we can talk about that too, in terms of, like, women putting on high heels and stepping on them or why men like having penis.
- [18:24]
Bill Maher
You're talking about dominatrix and.
- [18:26]
Debra Soh
Yeah,
- [18:29]
Bill Maher
well, I certainly can't relate.
- [18:33]
Debra Soh
It's sexual masochism. So it's people who, like, be humiliated. Yeah.
- [18:36]
Bill Maher
No. I mean, there's things about being 70 that aren't great. But, you know, one of the greatest things is we're not fucking nuts. You know, we really aren't. We grew up at a great time. We're lucky. My head is screwed on straight. Good things make me happy. Bad things make me sad. That's it.
- [18:58]
Debra Soh
You don't wanna strangle women in darn sex.
- [19:00]
Bill Maher
I used to know a whole bit about that. Like, even in my fantasies, I'm not doing anything weird. Even in my fantasies, I don't wanna do all these things that people do. It's just basic shit. Because, again, that's how I was raised. Or that's where I. You know, I feel like I had a fairly healthy, frustrating adolescence, but fairly healthy. I think where people go wrong is they get too jaded. And that's when you have to go to the high heel in your neck because you did everything else by the time you were 14 or something, you
- [19:32]
Debra Soh
know, or usually those men have, we'll say, difficult relationship with their mother. So if their mother was, say, abusive or something, that's what they eroticize, that type of behavior.
- [19:42]
Bill Maher
Let's leave my mother. No. And I did. I had a wonderful. Another thing I'm lucky about, you know, normal parents. Normal. You know, it was. I had a very Leave it to Beaver upbringing as lots of people did in my era where, you know, there was not even any divorce. People didn't get divorced people. Families stayed together. I'm sure there was stuff going on, like abusing, you know, children that was just so covered up that it just was not talked about. So it wasn't in my head. It certainly wasn't put in my head. You might be in the wrong body now. I'm sure, there are some, very few, but some kids who are quote, unquote, in the wrong body. And it's also not fair that in that era they had nowhere to turn to say, you know, I really don't feel like a girl. I don't. I want to grow a mustache. But in general, I feel, I think you agree with me. We've gone way too far.
- [20:54]
Debra Soh
Way past. Way too far.
- [20:56]
Bill Maher
Right. Way past, way too far in constantly putting it into kids heads. Again, what I would teach kids is there is a default setting for humans, but if you're not in that default setting, that doesn't make you bad or worse. But there is a default setting. That's not what we teach. No, it's not in California anymore.
- [21:16]
Debra Soh
No. No. But I would also say for those kids, you know, that even if it's okay to feel differently, like if you were a girl and you're more like a tomboy, or if you're a boy and you're more feminine, that's totally fine. So that was my first book, the End of Gender.
- [21:29]
Bill Maher
Right. That's what you were on for, the End of Gender. Right.
- [21:31]
Debra Soh
And I remember you were interviewed by New York Times Magazine after I was on and they were asking you about me and you defended me. So I really appreciated that.
- [21:40]
Bill Maher
Really?
- [21:40]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [21:41]
Bill Maher
They were going after you.
- [21:42]
Debra Soh
You didn't throw me under the bus.
- [21:44]
Bill Maher
No, I wouldn't. Why were they going after you?
- [21:46]
Debra Soh
Because there was on the show I said that some parents are letting kids transition because it's the easier thing because these are homophobic.
- [21:55]
Bill Maher
Said the same thing. Part of this is social contingent. Obviously. It's not even controversial that they can't even admit that. Yes, part of it is I could admit that it's a real thing. Not that you have to make me admit it. That's just life. It goes back to ancient times. They called them Heraphrodites or, you know, there's variation. Not everything is the default setting. Just most stuff, you know, and some stuff like pregnant men, just belongs in Ripley's Believe it or Not. You know, if you saw that in Ripley's.
- [22:28]
Debra Soh
Because they're biologically women. So it's not even really like a thing. It's just like this is a woman who's taking testosterone. But they turned it into a thing.
- [22:34]
Bill Maher
Yes. Oh, and if you. And if you dare to say that there's any difference at all between a biological woman and a trans woman, you are an evil person. You are racist. Even though race has nothing to do with it, you're a Bigot. And you just.
- [22:52]
Debra Soh
That's why they should be allowed in our locker rooms and our bathrooms.
- [22:55]
Bill Maher
Should not.
- [22:55]
Debra Soh
I'm kidding. Yeah.
- [22:56]
Bill Maher
No, yeah. Right? I mean, you know, it is amazing to me the way the far left morons just work their way back to positions that are actually hurting the people they pretend that they're championing. Women used to be one of their big causes.
- [23:18]
Debra Soh
Yeah. They don't.
- [23:19]
Bill Maher
Title IX was one of their big achievements. And then it was like, Title 9. Women should have an equal thing in sports. And we're going to throw the man in the pool.
- [23:28]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Bill Maher
It's just. They just are thinking, at least out here, not what their big thing is.
- [23:36]
Debra Soh
I'm glad to see it being turned around, though. I do think, like, the most unhinged of the trans activists are gonna continue doing their thing till the end of time. I think no matter how much the public is saying, we're done, you guys need to stop this, they're gonna keep going. Cause they're so personally invested. And I think they also have a lot of shame about their own transition or their own. Because for very many of them, it's a sexual thing. So their desire to transition to female if they're born male, is because they find it erotic to have a woman's body or the idea of having a woman's body. And they have a lot. They feel a lot of guilt and shame around that. So that's why they're pushing this on the public to say, you all have to affirm me, quote, affirm me as a woman, to make me feel more legitimate about my own feelings. And this is why they're putting it on the kids. And I think also for many parents who have transitioned their children, they need everybody to go along with it because they want their child to have the best possible life. So I feel for these kids, Obviously they're being misled and it's not their fault, especially with social media. That's another part of it. But I mean, just come on, guys.
- [24:33]
Bill Maher
That's what I think bugs me the most about it. And you're talking to someone who's never had kids and doesn't even like them. So why I'm deputized to be the one to defend them just shows how far off this has gotten the trail.
- [24:47]
Debra Soh
You were one of the first liberals to, like, have the guts to call it out.
- [24:50]
Bill Maher
Absolutely. Because I love the truth, and I don't, believe me, I welcome their hatred. The people who are just out there, I mean, first of all, they all left a long Time ago. But to use children as cannon fodder in this culture war, that, to me is a little low. Even the Mafia doesn't bring in the family.
- [25:14]
Debra Soh
Yeah, there are boundaries. There.
- [25:16]
Bill Maher
There should be some boundaries. And that's absolutely what they did. They brought in the kids and said, if you don't agree with this, this very sudden, very sudden reversal of what we've always believed, now, maybe some things, it's true, some things we've always believed are wrong, but to be suddenly just planting your flag down here in a place to the left of where every other country is, including the liberal ones that we look up to as liberal, including to the left of them. Far left. As far as transitioning kids by their own diagnosis at any age.
- [25:54]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Without telling the parents.
- [25:55]
Bill Maher
Yeah, without telling the parents. This is far out stuff. And to sort of plant your flag and say, like, yes, this is extremely new and extremely radical. And also, if you don't go along, you're crazy and wrong. And it's like, wait a second, this is new stuff. I'm not crazy or wrong to say, slow down. And that's what every other country did. They just said, whoa, you know what? This might not look good in the future. Maybe we should slow it down a little bit.
- [26:25]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Well, also, I mean, the fact that parents don't get a say they're transitioning the kids, even if the parents do find out, they will take the kids away and put them in sanctuary states if they want to leave. Right. That, to me, is the most terrifying thing if you have a child and you don't even get to have the final say in terms of the medical interventions they're undergoing. So I'm hoping all that stuff is finally going to be done with.
- [26:44]
Bill Maher
Well, I'm glad I didn't throw you under the bus.
- [26:47]
Debra Soh
I wasn't expecting you to.
- [26:48]
Bill Maher
You will find none of my friends under that bus. A couple of my enemies, maybe, but
- [26:56]
Debra Soh
no, but I like, you know, I know you'll call me out, too, if you think I'm wrong about something, because I've seen you do this with other people. I respect that.
- [27:01]
Bill Maher
I do. I will. I mean, you cannot bribe me and you cannot incentivize me. You know, Trump, I mean, you know, I was his most virulent critic, had dinner with him, told everybody that, you know, he's very different in person and he's not as crazy as he seems, but kept right on criticizing where I thought, and then he got mad at me again. And now he's pulled other stuff. But I still supported the idea of going into Iran. Not that we want to get into that, but just to the point of like, you cannot bribe me or incentivize me. While he was attacking me, I was always saying, no, I'm one of the few liberals who thinks, yeah, we needed to do this with Iran, and this is with every subject. And it's very, very liberating. It's so liberating not to have to check what your opinion is supposed to be. And I'm, you know, Are you still getting shit from left for some of your views? Does this book get shit?
- [28:06]
Debra Soh
Yeah. So it's true.
- [28:07]
Bill Maher
Well, let's tell the people, like, I'm good, proper host fucking stoners who work here. I don't know who they are. But sex. Great title. Sex Tinction. Yeah. Extinction of Sex, the Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Debra. So, okay, so I did my job very well. I feel you did. And it is a great book.
- [28:31]
Debra Soh
Thank you.
- [28:31]
Bill Maher
Very interesting on every page. Not too scholarly, but scholarly enough.
- [28:36]
Debra Soh
Yeah. I do my best to write in a way that someone with no scientific background can still understand my writing.
- [28:43]
Bill Maher
May is Mental Health Awareness Month. So maybe you'll finally decide. Okay, I'll talk to someone. Great. Now go find a therapist who takes your insurance, is available this decade and doesn't require a small loan just to say hello, good luck. Well, that's where RULA comes in. And no, this isn't one of those sounds nice, but it doesn't work situations. RULA is a healthcare provider group that actually connects you with licensed therapists and psychiatrists who take insurance. Over 120 plans, by the way. So people are paying on average around 15 bucks a session. They've got a network of over 23,000 providers nationwide, so. So you can actually find someone who fits you, your schedule, your needs, your situation. And they don't just disappear after you book. They stick with you, help you track progress, adjust care. Like a system that's actually invested in whether you get better. And here's the radical part. Appointments can be available as soon as tomorrow, not sometime after you've emotionally unraveled. Tomorrow. Really? This Mental Health Awareness Month. Don't just think about your mental health. Actually take the step to take care of it. Visit rula.comrandom to get started. That's R U L A dot com random. You deserve mental health care that works with you. Not against your budget. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebr. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [30:30]
Debra Soh
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra fee. Full terms@mintmobile.com no, I absolutely, I mean
- [30:44]
Bill Maher
I'm not an idiot about science, but it was never my subject. So I do need it explained.
- [30:49]
Debra Soh
I mean, and I don't fault people for that. The only reason I understand the studies is cause I've, you know, I went to school for it. But other people, you know, people have jobs, they're trying to pay their rent and take care of their families. So I figure if I can give you as much information as possible and make it as easy as possible to understand and apply it in your own life. I used to have all the citations. I have over 400 citations in the book too. So people can look things up.
- [31:08]
Bill Maher
You must have been way ahead always through school. You must have been that, no offense, that Asian kid who like the white kids were cheating off of and was like, you know, on the 11th grade level when you were in sixth grade.
- [31:22]
Debra Soh
It's so funny cause I ran into one of my friends.
- [31:25]
Bill Maher
Do you play the violin?
- [31:26]
Debra Soh
No. Piano though. I do. See, it's always one or the other. Not a physician though. I'm a neuroscientist, so we were close. But one of my childhood friends, I ran into him actually at a gay bar like years in my 20s. And he said, you know what I remember the most about you is when you used to hand, I signed a copy for you and I can show you my handwriting now. I write like a serial killer. Like the letters, they're all like all over the place. It looks like when people cut up, you know, they give out ransom note. Ransom notes. Yeah. He said your handwriting was so impeccable and you would always write in the margins. So. But like with my first book, you know, I wanted that to be a guide for parents in terms of how to protect your kids from this ideology that's basically going to try and take them from you. And what this book was very much with the goal of helping parents anticipate what is coming down the line in terms of not just social media and screens, which we're seeing how devastating that's been for Children especially, and adults. But then also these other technologies and these other social changes that are happening. Because I don't think one. I don't want to see society go through the same thing that we've gone through with social media, which is that it seemed benign at first, but now I think it's done so much damage. And I think there are some. Obviously some positives to social media and the Internet and it's allowed us to be connected in some ways, but I really think it's done a lot of damaging things to mental health, to the relations between men and women. Like with the sex recession, it's affecting everybody, whether you're single or married. Doesn't matter what age you are if you're in the west or in the east or any developed country. And then also I wanted anyone, regardless of whether they're married or single, to be able to take something away from the book as well. So I wrote it from that perspective of, I think this is something that's going to affect everybody. Even if you don't want a date and you are perfectly happy with your sexlessness, there is. There are still other things going on beneath the surface that are going to affect people and hormonally too, because I know you're a big health freak like I am, and things like endocrine disruptors and toxins.
- [33:18]
Bill Maher
I mean, drinking and smoking pot. So, I mean, freak is a little. But you said you were in a gay bar.
- [33:26]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Bill Maher
Is that where you hang out? Are you gay?
- [33:28]
Debra Soh
No, I'm not gay. When I was younger, all my friends were gay men. I used to work in the makeup industry. That's why my friends were gay men. But no, I'm straight.
- [33:36]
Bill Maher
Okay. Yeah. I don't understand the masturbation thing with the boys because, like, yes, it was always a great backup plan, but I never didn't understand to this very day that sex is better. It seems like that's a big change also that they've transitioned to this moment where it's not the backup plan, it's the plan.
- [34:05]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [34:07]
Bill Maher
And maybe that's because they. If you've never had sex, maybe you don't know that it's better. And I mean, where does that line lead to on the historical chart?
- [34:22]
Debra Soh
Well, I think we'll start with where it comes from. I think, again, like, the early exposure to pornography. But then also Gen Z in particular has such a high rate of anxiety. So basically, like, all of Gen Z has an anxiety disorder. Over half of Gen Z has a mental health diagnosis. And of them 90% have anxiety. So if you are super self conscious, you don't have a lot of confidence, especially if what you're seeing online or in real life, your experiences with the opposite sex aren't positive. And especially for boys, they're terrified of being me too. Having their lives destroyed if they approach the wrong woman, or having a woman get really angry and disgusted with you and, you know, just to make you feel badly about having the guts to go and talk to someone, they're going to say, okay, well, why am I going to bother doing this? And then you also have these male influencers who are having their moments saying, oh, don't you know, feminism is terrible. I do think feminism has gone too far in some ways. But of course women are equal to men. So. But they're saying, like, you know, women don't deserve any equal rights or whatever. Like, you just have a harem of these ladies and they should sit at home and serve you. So these laundry tapes. Oh, that type. That type, yeah. There are a bunch of them.
- [35:31]
Bill Maher
What do they call it? Manosphere.
- [35:33]
Debra Soh
Manosphere, yeah.
- [35:34]
Bill Maher
Right. Okay, but I mean, so they're putting out the idea that guys should have a harem because it's not easy to get a harem.
- [35:45]
Debra Soh
What's funny too is that they. It's not funny actually, but they draw on evolutionary psychology and biology to justify their ideas. Like, so basically, like, men like lots of sex with lots of women, so they should be able to sleep with as many women as they want. Whereas women, their chastity, their sexual chastity is the most important thing. So women, you know, you as a man can sleep with as many women as you want, but your woman needs to be a virgin and, you know, she just needs to pop out babies for you. And so that, I think is adding also to this dynamic because if you have young boys who are taking this, internalizing this ideology and say they don't have a father or a strong male role model in their life, they think this is what healthy masculinity is. And if you have feminism in the education system telling them that men are toxic and men are bad, and they say, well, I'm a boy. I don't want to be bad. So I'm going to listen to anyone who's telling me that masculinity is good, even if it is such an extreme interpretation of it. And so then what you see is when they are dating, they're going to treat their female partners a certain way. The women are going to say, I don't like this Right. And understandably, I think feminism has done something to young women, too, which has made them hate men. So in terms of the feedback to sextinction, I was not expecting this at all, because trans activists are a whole other level of lunacy. I was not expecting that type of backlash from both men and women. So I feel like I did a pretty fair job in terms of calling out both sexes and saying when they're being ridiculous in the book and saying, you know, you guys are taking this too far or you're going this too far in this direction.
- [37:11]
Bill Maher
You're doing the right thing when you're getting it from both sides. And that goes for sex, too. No, I'm joking. Well, I mean, that is one thing apropos to this discussion that I think cannot be emphasized enough and maybe cannot be understood ever by a woman, just the way we can't understand you fully. But the difference between how much we are okay with many partners and that is just not what your biology leads you to. And that, I mean, that is, I guess, the danger of pornography. Now, maybe if I say, look me in the eye and tell me, am I. Is it unhealthy for me to look at pornography at all? Even though what I look at is fairly benign, fairly vanilla, it is still the idea that there is, you know, this inexhaustible supply of attractive women acting extremely sexy and, you know, no real life could live up to that. Yeah, I mean, but I wouldn't trade my real life for that. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, for me, I feel like I can live side by side with that. Let's call it a hobby and my reality. But maybe you would. I've also read people who say, no, you should give up porn altogether because as long as you have that idea in your head that this exists, this harem of hot women who are just there to please you. And, you know, that's what I mean. Porn girls, they're just like hookers. They're trying to make you come. You know, that's their sole purpose. That's their sole purpose, and they're good at it. And it would be impossible for any woman, or literally any group of women to live up to that. So I could see how a young mind, that could be bad. Now, maybe you tell me it's also bad for me. I feel like I can live with that dichotomy. But maybe I'm wrong.
- [39:18]
Debra Soh
I would say, I mean, the fact that you had your first sexual experience prior to porn or online porn is a positive thing. And it doesn't sound like it's affecting you in your day to day life or your relationships. I would say for men more broadly. And I don't do clinical work anymore, so for people listening or watching, you know, talk to a mental health professional, don't base your relationship decisions on what I'm saying on Bill Maher's podcast. But I would say, you know, if your partners are saying, giving you feedback that they are either uncomfortable or they're not, you know, enjoying sex with you or. I mean, these are some things I hear from women who say, like, they are having sex with men who are. They use the term porn. Sick. So basically, men consume way too much porn. These men are trying things during sex. Like I mentioned, you know, strangulation, which is very common with Gen Z. Or they are doing abusive things like spitting on them, calling them names. And women are like, what are you doing? That's awful. And if you as a man are doing these behaviors and you don't think that you should maybe ask or just not do them in the bedroom, or you think that this is something enjoyable to ask yourself, where did you get these ideas from?
- [40:21]
Bill Maher
I think it's deeper than that. Why do you like it? Like I was saying before, again, this is one of my specials. This was the ending bit about how even in my fantasies, I just, you know, choking, I don't get it. Like, oh, you can't breathe. Sexy. No, I don't get it. Death or like, even. But I never even, like, I would never want to, like, tie somebody up. Tie somebody up. No, I want your hands on me.
- [40:48]
Debra Soh
Yeah, well, let's.
- [40:49]
Bill Maher
Let me hip you how that's gonna make this better. Yeah, let's use those hands. Let's not. I don't need to tie you up to control you. I can do that with my dick, as I should. The only way a woman should ever feel pain in bed and not a terrible pain. Yeah, just, you know. Oh, baby, it hurts so good.
- [41:11]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Bill Maher
Sometimes love don't feel like it should.
- [41:14]
Debra Soh
Well, I talk in sextion about how for people who genuinely do enjoy being abused during sex or abusing their partner, usually that stems from some form of abuse in childhood in that it's unresolved trauma that they're living through or going back to because they're trying to either make sense of what happened or to feel like this terrible thing that happened to them was not so bad. But in terms of, say, choking, I mean, it is potentially fatal. And people like it because when you cut off the airflow to the brain you get high. Right. Because you have brain cells dying. That's what it is. And even if you don't pass out necessarily, that's not good for your brain. There are actually studies showing that there's choking during sex can lead to inflammation of the brain, which is associated with mental health issues down the road. And just to give your audience an idea of how common this is, so among female university students, let me get these statistics right. So half of them have had an experience of being choked during sex. A third of them were choked the last time they had sex, and a third of them have been choked more than five times during sex, versus that's only 7% of university men. So this is very much more like a man. Men doing this to women.
- [42:26]
Bill Maher
Oh, of course.
- [42:27]
Debra Soh
So many men will say, oh, women want it. But I think they're just doing that from porn.
- [42:33]
Bill Maher
What that is, is it's not what women want. What women want is the guy. They want to like them.
- [42:40]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [42:40]
Bill Maher
They do things because, you know, they're young and they want this guy to be into them. Trust me, I've heard this many times. Women saying, you know, I'm into girls. And I always say, no, you're not. No, you're not. You're just saying that. Cause you think I want to hear that.
- [43:01]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Cause if they're with a guy who says, I'm not into that. Yeah. If a guy says, I'm not into that, then they're like, okay, I'm not into it, you know.
- [43:08]
Bill Maher
Right. And the choking thing, you know. Yes. Okay. I guess there could be real serious physical problems down the road, but the problem is much more, why do you find that attractive? And by the way, let me just say choking is different. Putting hands on someone's neck is not choking them. The neck is a very erogenous zone. I mean, I think every square inch of a woman is. I mean, I'm a flaming heterosexual, so, you know, to put your hands on somebody's throat, but that's not choking. That's the same as you would caress them anywhere. But if you actually get pleasure at giving pain, that's a problem. That's where to me, the ref has got to throw the flag because there's something wrong with you, then there's something you are there not for the pleasure. Sex itself should be the pleasure. You shouldn't need this extra dimension. Oh, it's sex. And I'm making someone cry, you know.
- [44:16]
Debra Soh
Yeah. It depends on the intention. Because I think there are some men who do it also because they have had female partners in the past who have said they liked it. So they think, well, I'm not really into this, but women seem to like it, so I'm gonna do it. And then the women.
- [44:27]
Bill Maher
Those women were lying because they thought the men wanted to hear that, which
- [44:31]
Debra Soh
is so crazy, because this whole trend is really about both sides pretending that they want something that they don't actually like.
- [44:37]
Bill Maher
Well, I mean. I mean, look, men are the seed of the bad shit. I would absolutely concur. But women could do a better job, too, of this kind of thing. I mean, you know, you let down the whole gender when you pretend that you like this stuff, because that is going to encourage the guy to think, oh, they do like it. I mean, he's young, dumb, and full of cum. I mean, he literally doesn't know his ass from the elbow. So he's probably gonna buy that and think, oh, they do. And then, of course, they see it on porn. And, you know, there is a lot of spitting in porn, which I hate. I don't like spit to begin with. I don't know what I mean. I get it that it's involved with sex in some ways, but I don't have to look at it. You know, I've never been a fan or engaged in, like, food. Some people, you know, mix food. They lick shit off of you. It's like, I wouldn't even have food before sex. That's my big. Sex first, then food. People do it backwards in this country. I've said it on this show many times. They do it backwards. You shouldn't eat dinner. And then fuck. It's disgusting.
- [45:44]
Debra Soh
Yeah, you get nauseated.
- [45:45]
Bill Maher
You're nauseated. Your body is spending all the energy digesting the food. You should do it after. That's when it makes sense. You've earned it, you know?
- [45:57]
Debra Soh
And then the problem is the men are probably gonna be like, I'm go home now. Forget dinner,
- [46:03]
Bill Maher
right? I mean, you have to have somebody who you want to have dinner with after. But, you know. You know, it's funny because we do talk about all these changes, but then we also do see a lot of society doing what they always have done. I mean, Deborah the Bachelor is still on. Or maybe it's not. Didn't they just cancel it as the chick with throwing chairs or something? But you know what I mean, like, there's still a lot of very traditional. Even, like, the celebrities who everybody looks up to, you know, they basically, like, you know, they get married to the tight end for the Kansas City Chiefs. You Know, they just, they're not the gravitational pull of who we actually really are.
- [46:54]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Bill Maher
What we want is a very strong antidote to the craziness. I mean, you can say gender is just a. What's the term?
- [47:03]
Debra Soh
Non binary or spectrum.
- [47:04]
Bill Maher
Well, a cultural or a. Oh, socially constructed, a construct. But you know, we are who we are and it is biology and it is science and it is lizard brain and it is there and you can just kind of argue your way out of it so far. And then we are who we are and that's when you see, oh look, you know, put a ring on it. And you know, like they just, they just, it's like, you know, they're just. Water goes downhill. You're just going to fall back into what you, you can't escape most of that.
- [47:42]
Debra Soh
Yeah, yeah. And that's the other thing with a lot of the technologies around dating and relationships. I think also a lot of like the ideology promoted by Wokeism or feminism is it helps in the short term in that it helps us to self soothe, say when we're stressed out. Like the distraction of being on screens or being on dating apps, it makes you feel like, okay, I'm doing something to help my personal life or to meet people or to connect. But the reality is it's not the same as actual in person connection. It's not the same as actually hearing someone's voice or having a face to face conversation. And so I do think that's why people feel even worse after. Right. Where you feel even more lonely, you feel more disconnected, more alienated. And so even though these distractions help us short term, I think long term, this is why we're in a place where we're so divided now. But I wanted to ask you, and not about your personal life, but just more broadly being in Hollywood. What is dating like here? Because I know in large cities like say New York, it is, I've heard it's just atrocious. Like it's so difficult. And I imagine especially being in entertainment and being in this ecosphere, like it must be so much harder because I hear from people around the world about how hard dating is nowadays.
- [48:55]
Bill Maher
I mean I certainly hear it from every woman I know.
- [48:58]
Debra Soh
Not the men though.
- [49:02]
Bill Maher
I mean, I mean, do I know a lot of men who are dating? I mean, you know, most of my friends are married. I mean, you know, I mean I'm 70, a lot of them have grandkids. I'm the one who's still single, but I'm not actively, I mean I'm not dating. I mean, I'm happy. I don't get specific about my personal lifestyle.
- [49:23]
Debra Soh
That's why that's really fun.
- [49:25]
Bill Maher
I'm good. I'm good.
- [49:27]
Debra Soh
But when you work.
- [49:28]
Bill Maher
But I'm not out there trying to hustle up dates. So I don't know. What I know is what I hear from so many women who, yes, their complaints are legion and just appalling. It's appalling. I think it's the. A lot of it is. We talked about social media, but the actual dating apps, I mean, the idea that you could scroll through, like an inexhaustible supply of women, I mean, from someone who was. When I was out there, like trying to meet girls in bars, I mean, first of all, there was no targeting of the audience. You went to a bar. Maybe there's somebody in that bar who you would get along with. Maybe there's nothing. I mean, it was just complete potluck.
- [50:12]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [50:13]
Bill Maher
Now it's like, I guess somewhat targeted because you can see them and you read their profile, whatever. But the idea that you can just like scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll is just. The human brain can't do that. Certainly not the male brain. And so I don't, I mean, the fact that they can do that, that it's that easy. To me, what the stories I hear from women indicate to me that there's too much supply, shall we say, of that of women. So guys don't feel the need to treat women with any sort of respect or, you know, I'll just scroll to the next one. You know, I just met you. Do you want to go home with me? No. Okay, I'll scroll to the next one. Maybe I'll do better there. It's just this numbers game that seems completely crazy. That's what I hear.
- [51:07]
Debra Soh
Because that, to me, that, that's my sense with many large cities, especially when the sex ratio is imbalanced and there are more women in that city than men, because when there are fewer men, they are going to be calling the terms in terms of the relationships or what the, the, the how things are going to go. Basically, like you said, if they want casual sex, they're going to say, this is what I want. If you're not going to give it to me, I'm going to go elsewhere. And then I think also imagine the men in this city are so financially successful that they also have their pick of the lot. So that adds to it, where now you have more women and then all women are fighting for this very small
- [51:46]
Bill Maher
pool of Successful men, that's the big problem. And I think that's always been a problem to a degree and ever more so, which is that, yes, it's nature. And when walruses mate, you know, I'm picking on walruses. I'm sure you know this better than I. You probably took biology more seriously than I did. But some species, or maybe many of them, the males fight and the women, the females of the species, they want the alpha.
- [52:20]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [52:20]
Bill Maher
You know, that's just nature. And here you can be alpha in a place like LA because you're great looking. Cause you know, we suck all the great looking people out of the country.
- [52:33]
Debra Soh
People in LA are so beautiful. Whenever I come here, I'm always like, oh, yeah?
- [52:36]
Bill Maher
Yes. I mean, because people in Indiana, when they're beautiful, they go, I gotta be in la, you know, and the models are in New York. And. Yeah, so it's crazy like that. Or you can be. And there's also like tens of zillions of rich people. I mean, everybody wants to live here. We got the weather, man, you know, as much as we try to fuck up this state, you know, you just cannot put a price on sunshine in February, you know, and also, everybody already lives here. You know, people who don't have to live here, live here. Yeah, like the really big stars can live anywhere. They don't have to see their agent every week. Trust me, if Jay Z wants to do something, they'll come to him. He doesn't have to live in Bel Air. He chooses to. They all do. It's la, man. So, yes, there's. There's just Lot and there's so many Nepo babies and Nepo wealth and passed on wealth and, you know, so it's. I don't know. When you go out in this town, it just, it doesn't look like anybody's really unhappy when you're in a restaurant. But they also look like they're all on the make in some way. And it's just this big game of musical chairs of, you know, and good luck finding that right hookup because, you know, maybe you will. But it just looks like everybody is sort of superficially trying to match with who on paper they would like the most. You know your book, you talk about the sick three sixes guys.
- [54:22]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Three sixes rule. So it's this idea that women should strive for a man who is over six feet tall, makes over six figures annually and has a penis that is larger than 6 inches. So this is used as an illustration in the world.
- [54:36]
Bill Maher
Well, I'm five foot eight.
- [54:38]
Debra Soh
You can have.
- [54:39]
Bill Maher
But, you know, as Meatlove said, very specific, don't be sad because two out of three ain't bad.
- [54:47]
Debra Soh
No, I don't. I don't think height. I mean, there's an evolutionary reason for that, but I don't think height is a determination. No, but, you know, this whole Happiness or success.
- [54:54]
Bill Maher
Did you see that movie? It was quite good. I liked it. I can't remember the name of it now, but Dakota Johnson played a.
- [55:04]
Debra Soh
Like a 50 shades of gray.
- [55:06]
Bill Maher
No, no, no, not that one. No. She played like, you know, someone who. I don't forget the word for it. But she hooked people up. You know, she wasn't a madam and they weren't matchmaker. Matchmaker. Yeah. A modern kind of matchmaker. And one of the plot points in the movie is that men these days are having operations on their legs.
- [55:29]
Debra Soh
Oh, yeah.
- [55:30]
Bill Maher
Because they want to get up to the six level. And that women, because they've seen or read. I've certainly read this. That some astounding number of women will immediately swipe left on anyone who's not six foot tall, which I think.
- [55:48]
Debra Soh
Or they set the filter there so they don't even see those profiles.
- [55:51]
Bill Maher
They don't even see them. Okay, so for all the women who are like always up our ass about how superficial we are about big tits, fuck you. Your legs are our tits. Okay. You're no better, obviously. And you used to be.
- [56:07]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [56:07]
Bill Maher
And I don't think most women are like that. But maybe that's just the women who are on social.
- [56:12]
Debra Soh
I think there's an extreme. But that standard in terms of wanting the highest top tier male specimen, in terms of whom you're willing to date, I think that broader mentality has spread because if you ask as research for the book, and I'm asking, I will ask men. I was asking men and women about their experiences with dating. And men will typically reference their height in. You know, it's funny, I've never spoken weed before and I think this is starting to affect me.
- [56:39]
Bill Maher
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [56:40]
Debra Soh
No, no, it's totally fine. I knew it's totally fine. I'm just. If I'm stumbling with my words.
- [56:46]
Bill Maher
You're hardly stumbling with your words. You haven't even sat back. I mean, I don't think you're in danger of going nuts here, Deborah. I really don't.
- [56:56]
Debra Soh
I just told you too. I'm like, I want to do a really good job with this interview.
- [56:58]
Bill Maher
Oh, you're doing a great job. So basically that this is heroin, by the way. Anyway, go ahead. From sauce to dust to nuggets. It's Taco Bell's new Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets. Are they mild? If they were mild, they'd have to change the name to Little Rascal Nuggets or Minor Nuisance Nuggets. Definitely Diablo. New Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets. A brand new classic only a Taco bell at participating U.S. taco Bell locations for a limited time and while supplies last.
- [57:32]
Debra Soh
I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safe. Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov. i'm gonna have a great night after this.
- [58:04]
Bill Maher
Really? You think you could get a contact high from this?
- [58:07]
Debra Soh
I do.
- [58:07]
Bill Maher
I can barely get high from smoking it anymore. That's awesome. I wish I was a virgin like that.
- [58:15]
Debra Soh
But yeah, men will reference their height in comparison to six feet. Instead of saying like I'm five' ten or five' eleven, they'll say I'm almost six feet tall. Whereas a guy who's actually six feet tall or taller will say I'm six one six two. So I've noticed this trend and it's the same like with women and how we feel the need to minimize, you know, our just size or you know, say, we'll say, what was I going to say about this? I was going to say, well, because
- [58:42]
Bill Maher
I don't know, stoner, what were you
- [58:44]
Debra Soh
in the last week? I will say in the last week people have been wondering if I had breast implants. And I know it's called a push up bra just for people watching, but to say we'll emphasize certain body parts.
- [58:56]
Bill Maher
What's the difference between a push up bra and the miracle bra? Because I remember when the miracle bra came out. Do you remember the miracle bra? Did you have a mirror?
- [59:03]
Debra Soh
It was more of like a cone, I think. Right.
- [59:04]
Bill Maher
I feel like it wasn't a miracle. I feel like we push the tits up and together and that's the miracle. Like there's only so many ways you can. Like that's what we do. It's not a miracle. We push the shit together. That's really it.
- [59:20]
Debra Soh
Greatest invention of all time, really. But yeah. So I think women are allowed to want what they want, just like men are allowed to want what they want. But in terms of those standards, if you're going into the dating pool and saying, okay, I'm not even going to look at men who are not this height or who don't meet these criteria that are not necessarily reflective of happiness in a relationship, you're doing yourself in right?
- [59:41]
Bill Maher
Or, you know, look, men, if you said to me, like, if I was in the dating pool and you said, well, you have to look at women up to every age, I wouldn't do that either. I mean, we do also have the right to want what we want. You know, when you're in a restaurant, you have the right to send it back and say, no, I wanted it well done, you know, or I wanted it rare, sorry, whatever it is. I mean, so part of me is quick to condemn and say, you superficial hussies. And the other part is like, you know, you gotta get what you like or else you're gonna like what you get.
- [60:22]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [60:23]
Bill Maher
The problem is there aren't that many. Here's the real problem isn't wanting the perfect guy. The real problem is I feel like this attitude. And again, maybe this is just la among women who you don't have that much to offer. You know what you have to offer. You're cute. That's it. And you think that's all you need. You're not smart, you're not cool, interesting. You're not that interesting. You're vapid. And there's a thousand million chicks out here just like you. And you think you deserve like the upper echelon kind of guy. Read a book. Okay.
- [60:57]
Debra Soh
Yeah, I hear that from men a lot too, where they say, you know, women are so entitled. They think, you know, they give these women a number and they say, these women think that they deserve tens or that because they can hook up with a rich guy once, that they're gonna marry that type of guy when really they were just a hookup. You know, they can't actually track that, that status of a man. So I say that, and I have a vice and sex tinction for both sexes. And I say for women, you know, like, definitely be a kind person and have a personality and just like men be kind.
- [61:24]
Bill Maher
And you know, in the correction to when we treated women horribly, which is true, and it certainly has been needed and certainly needs to keep going. But in that correction, there's been a lot over the last few decades of just blowing a lot of Smoke up their ass about what an ethereal, perfect creature you are.
- [61:48]
Debra Soh
Body positivity.
- [61:50]
Bill Maher
Well, body positivity, that was an outrageous, you know, extension of that idea.
- [61:56]
Debra Soh
If you're gonna say a man needs to be over 6ft tall, you also gotta be bringing it.
- [62:01]
Bill Maher
Right. But I mean, women were just told that just by being. You're awesome. Yeah, just you just. Just you just. You perfect the way you are. Just don't want to hear anything more. You're just fucking perfect because you're you. I mean, that attitude, I'm not exaggerating that. And no, no, that's certainly not what my generation thought about either sex. You know, you just. You're not born perfect, okay? Get over yourself. You know, make yourself. You want to be with interesting people. Make yourself interesting.
- [62:38]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [62:38]
Bill Maher
You know, you want to keep up with this conversation. And I mean, honestly, the number of women you could go out and. And again, this is la, but you know, I know New York is supposedly somehow the greatest mecca of intellectualism. I lived there twice. I didn't see any difference as far as like the younger people and how smart they were and they were into the same bullshit. Okay. They're the same superficial glitter monkeys everywhere.
- [63:07]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [63:07]
Bill Maher
And you know, okay, you can complain about it, but you're not really doing a hell of a lot to make yourself all that interesting. And again, the number of women that I've seen in this town who are under 40 who can keep up in a conversation, it's not a lot.
- [63:29]
Debra Soh
Wow.
- [63:30]
Bill Maher
A few, but not a lot. And they all do seem to think that they should be with the CEO of, you know, some trillion dollar company and, you know, be flying on private jets and, you know, it's very much like American Idol. You know, let's get. Let's skip past the part where I have to learn how to play music and get to the Idol part. Let's just skip the past part.
- [63:54]
Debra Soh
Just give me the record deal, Let
- [63:55]
Bill Maher
me just marry the guy and then, you know, I'll learn. And then when we have a conversation when he's talking to his boss, you know, I'll know what an IPO is.
- [64:03]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [64:03]
Bill Maher
Because right now I think it's some sort of UTI test.
- [64:07]
Debra Soh
I write in the book about plastic surgery and how I think combined with social media and reality TV and just the fact that everyone is hyper competitive among their own sex and they're trying to so desperately get the best, yet to get the best partner possible. People are going through countless procedures now looks maxing yet is very popular in Maybe.
- [64:31]
Bill Maher
I don't know what looks maxing is, but isn't looksmaxing what people have always wanted to do, which was just. I mean, I feel like my whole life I've been look maxing. I know it doesn't look like it, but, like, I can't think of a time certainly past when I got to puberty. Okay. When I was a kid, I cared about baseball cards, and that was that. But once women were in the picture, I did everything I possibly could to. To look my best. Now, sometimes I was wrong and it was stupid. And, you know, in high school, I grew a beard, and it didn't look good, but I could. So I did. But it was in my mind, Max. Your look.
- [65:10]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [65:11]
Bill Maher
You know, be the best looking version of yourself you can be.
- [65:14]
Debra Soh
The beard shows testosterone, so you were on the right track.
- [65:17]
Bill Maher
Well, yeah. If only I knew how to talk to a girl, maybe it would have helped.
- [65:24]
Debra Soh
But, like.
- [65:25]
Bill Maher
But what's different now with looks maxing? Just the surgery.
- [65:28]
Debra Soh
Well, it's hyper fixated on traits that. Or physical features that are seen as masculine or associated with high testosterone. So a very strong brow ridge, very strong jawline.
- [65:38]
Bill Maher
For women?
- [65:38]
Debra Soh
No, no, for men. For men. Women do this.
- [65:41]
Bill Maher
Mux maxing is only for men, mostly young men.
- [65:43]
Debra Soh
Yeah. And boys, in some cases, prepubescent bodies.
- [65:45]
Bill Maher
So that term refers to men.
- [65:46]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [65:47]
Bill Maher
Oh, that's even worse than I thought.
- [65:50]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Whereas I do find most of the plastic surgery, like, I see young women, like, in my hometown, I. Even teenage girls who have a lot of work done, which is crazy to me. You know, they have a lot of injectables. Yeah.
- [66:02]
Bill Maher
That's so ridiculous.
- [66:03]
Debra Soh
It's sad.
- [66:04]
Bill Maher
Well, because you're perfect at that age.
- [66:07]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [66:07]
Bill Maher
You have to work hard not to be cute at 19. Really?
- [66:11]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [66:12]
Bill Maher
I mean, there are. People have done it. Don't get me wrong. I've seen it done. But, like, you can look at people sometimes who we come to know later in life, famous or not, and you see them, like in middle age, and, you know, they're no great lookers, you know, and then you see a picture of them at 19, you go, wow, they were cute. They actually were cute. You know, it's just nature. It's just our bodies are constantly making replicated cells of ourselves. Each time they make them, they make them a little worse. That's really what aging is, aging.
- [66:53]
Debra Soh
The reason we look, you know, our age as we get older is because it's the body signaling to other partners that reproductive health is going down with Age. Right. Because you are not as fertile.
- [67:05]
Bill Maher
I mean, and this is certainly something about the psychology that must be going on in women's minds that I've thought about many times, which is so much. Whether they, no matter how much they try to say we've reinvented humans, we haven't. And it is deep in the DNA of a woman to always be thinking men are interested in the looks, because they are, because they are. And as I age, that diminishes. Now I always try to tell my women friends, you know, you're worrying about nothing. There is a. This is a different world we live in. The cougars do very well out here. And lots of young guys like women who are 40. But I understand what they're talking about because I've often thought, I mean, I was a funny kid, you know, I started doing comedy. I'm getting paid to be a comedian. Very funny, Funny, funny, funny. What if as I got into my 30s, I got less funny? What would that do to my mind, knowing that as I got through my late 30s, now I'm into my 40s, people don't just find me that funny anymore.
- [68:21]
Debra Soh
And you can never get back to being as funny as you were in your 20s, no matter how hard you tried.
- [68:25]
Bill Maher
Right. There's no comedy surgery. And even if there was, it doesn't really work.
- [68:29]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [68:29]
Bill Maher
You know, as Fran Leibowitz brilliantly once said, nobody looks at someone who's 75 with plastic surgery and goes, who's that 35 year old person?
- [68:42]
Debra Soh
And I get it, it's unfair. You know, And I imagine, especially in
- [68:46]
Bill Maher
this town, cause I don't get less funny, I get more funny.
- [68:50]
Debra Soh
Yeah. And similarly for women who get more rich, I mean, if anything, it makes it harder for them to find a guy. Right. Because women tend to appreciate a man who gets richer over time.
- [69:01]
Bill Maher
Maybe it's harder to find a sincere guy.
- [69:03]
Debra Soh
Well, okay, yeah, that's.
- [69:04]
Bill Maher
I don't think it gets harder to find a guy. I think money. One thing I've learned about life, people like money. They really do. Like, you walk into a place like when I was a kid, like I always wanted to be, you know, James Bond or like some cool guy like that. And one of the great things about this time of my life is, you know, handing out like fifty hundred dollar tips to like people. When you're, it's like the greatest feeling in the world. I mean, it makes them feel good, but it makes me feel like, oh, wow, that is like the coolest arrival thing I could do is just Be that dude who, like, gives the mater d a little something on the sly, you know, it's just people like money. They really do. I've never seen it not bring a smile to someone's face. So I, you know, if a woman has money, I don't think that's a detriment. I think it's just, you have to do exactly what men do when we have money, which is always keep one eye open. That. Is this why this person likes me? And by the way, I've certainly met and know men. I am not one of them, but I know them who are, like, totally okay with that. That doesn't insult them at all. In fact, they. They're, again, not me, but their view of that is I feel good about that because I achieved this status with money. And so it's kind of an affirmation of my success that they like me for this. That I, you know. And I mean, to me, it's still. I mean, a whore is a whore, Deb.
- [70:49]
Debra Soh
But I imagine for most women who make lots of money or make more than their male partners, they're keeping track in their mind, for sure. Like you said, they have one eye open. They're also not necessarily as attracted to those men as someone. As a man who makes more money than they do. Because when you see marriages in which women actually make more money than their husbands, there's a higher chance of divorce. There are all these other awful things that are associated with it that I discuss in the book. Yeah, like, there's more, but that must
- [71:16]
Bill Maher
be more and more common.
- [71:17]
Debra Soh
Cheating on the male part. Yeah, no, it's becoming more common. One in seven marriages are actually. Women are primary breadwinners now.
- [71:23]
Bill Maher
And also they're kicking. Kicking ass in college. In a way. Men are. Men have checked out.
- [71:28]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [71:29]
Bill Maher
You know, there's. You talk about. What's the word? I don't know, for like, marrying up?
- [71:35]
Debra Soh
Hypergamy.
- [71:35]
Bill Maher
Exactly. I was testing you. Hypergamy, which is the square root of the hypotenuse, by the way, for kids who are watching this, doing their geometry homework. No hypergamy is involved here because the more men check out as far as academia, they graduate school, much fewer men now. I mean, men are the ones who need affirmative action now in college. I mean, women can't find guys to marry up to.
- [72:11]
Debra Soh
Exactly.
- [72:12]
Bill Maher
There's a stat that we keep called the unemployed. But the definition of unemployed is you don't have a job, but you're looking for one. There's another stat which has. I don't remember the number, but it's an astoundingly high number. Like 7 million that's not unemployed. It's not working and not looking.
- [72:35]
Debra Soh
Right.
- [72:36]
Bill Maher
Not working and not looking. And it's something like 7 million men in this country right now. 11 million unfilled jobs, very content to stay home with the Xbox.
- [72:46]
Debra Soh
Yep.
- [72:47]
Bill Maher
Yeah, that's not attractive to a woman.
- [72:50]
Debra Soh
No.
- [72:52]
Bill Maher
Women do like achievement. You know, they like, you know, it's.
- [72:58]
Debra Soh
And it's not just the money. It's also just feeling like this person has ambition. They're moving towards something. They have joy in their life. If you. I imagine if you are sitting in front of a screen all day playing video games, online betting, you have no goals. You don't get, you know, drastic. I don't imagine some like to be very happy. And so if you're dating, I mean, some like, that's probably not even dating, but if they were, you don't really have as much to talk about.
- [73:22]
Bill Maher
But so many women are going out with guys like that. Is that because there's just nobody else?
- [73:27]
Debra Soh
I think so. I think in maybe some cases, those women may feel like they can help this person or want to, but in time, I really think that just leads to resentment over time. Or it's because, like, the messaging from society is, you know, women are doing so great. That's okay. You can be the primary breadwinner. You can take care of this man. He doesn't need to take care of you. That's sexist. If you want a man to take care of you. I see a lot of that in young women. I feel really badly for them because I don't see that ending well. Because especially if you as a woman continue succeeding in life, which you likely will, because like you said, women are doing so well occupationally and in education and they're out graduating men. And if you're with a guy like this, who, if he's struggling with his mental health, say he has low testosterone, say he's got. Say he's watching porn every day, multiple times a day. So he has no motivation to do anything, sexual or otherwise. I mean, that's not going to be a very good future for either of you.
- [74:18]
Bill Maher
I have seen in more than one movie. I can't think of what they are now. Not big movies, but movies where there was this plot point where there's a couple and the hus. I think usually they're married. He's not really working because he wants to make his dream of being in the band work. He's got a band and he's mad at the wife who's like hocking him to like, get off your ass and get a job. Do something that you don't believe in. Me, you know, the band. The band's gonna work, man, we're good. And you know, if they put it in movies, I always feel like it must be true. That's how I know everything about children. I don't have children. I work very hard to never be around a child. But I see what it looks like from every single movie and television show and it always looks the same. Like a nightmare, Like a total nightmare where the kids don't respect their parents. They're yelling at them, they're cursing at them, they're doing things where they were just. My mother would just fucking kill me, you know?
- [75:31]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [75:32]
Bill Maher
So it must be true. And I feel like this must be true because they keep putting this into movies.
- [75:37]
Debra Soh
Well, at least that guy in the movie has a band, right? At least he's working towards something. He's not just sitting around like, well, doom scrolling all day long.
- [75:45]
Bill Maher
I feel like a band may be even worse because it gives you hope.
- [75:48]
Debra Soh
The false.
- [75:49]
Bill Maher
Yeah, it gives you hope. And you know, your band is not. Could it. Yes, anything could happen.
- [75:56]
Debra Soh
But you know, the other thing I would say is because there are fewer viable bachelors for women, there comes a point where a woman, if she does want to have kids, she has to choose. Either I have to pick from the available pool, which may mean I'm going to be with a guy whom I'm not. It's not really ideal. But I can have a child with him or she can go on her own. And I talk about reproductive technology in the book and how it gives this false premise of like, I think if people want to do ivf, they want to freeze their eggs, that's perfectly fine. That's their choice. But I think it's important for people to be aware of what do these technologies actually involve. The fact that they do not have 100% success rate. And I think also young women are taught to ignore biology or that they can somehow override their biology, which is not true. And so this is what you have happening where women will get into, you know, their late 30s or into their even early 40s and be surprised when their fertility is not the same because they weren't aware of this and now they're trying to find a partner. So this is where you see also in the culture where I think women get shamed for that. But I don't think it's necessarily their fault. It's like society's telling them you have all the time in the world, starting at teenage years, when you're on the birth control pill, when you're put on the pill, say for other reasons than being sexually active, there's this illusion that women have as much time as they want. And then they get to this point where if they have found someone now that single motherhood by choice is becoming more popular, where women can, like I did as an experiment, you can go on the Internet and buy. I didn't use it, but you can buy sperm on the Internet and impregnate yourself and have a baby on your own. And so this is what I see happening, that both sexes are going to continue bifurcating. And instead of saying, hey, let's try to make things work and find solutions that are actually solving this problem of people not pairing up, we're seeing women going this direction of saying, we don't need men. In fact, having a boyfriend is embarrassing or whatever, and I'm going to have a baby on my own with technology embarrassing. And men are saying, I'm going to get me a sex and be done with dating.
- [77:49]
Bill Maher
Having a boyfriend is not embarrassing. It is gay. It's very gay.
- [77:53]
Debra Soh
It's terminally online, as you said.
- [77:55]
Bill Maher
You saw that?
- [77:56]
Debra Soh
I loved it.
- [77:57]
Bill Maher
Yeah, yeah. No, it's very gay to have a boyfriend these days. I think so. I mean, I mean that in a positive way. But, you know, can I say something that I think would be encouraging? Because we are talking about a lot of things that are, you know, frankly discouraging. But we're honest. That's. Honesty is always better than non honesty. But for all the women in their 30s who are like. And I've just seen so many freakouts like, oh, My God, I'm 30. Oh, gosh, call 911. Really? I'm 70.
- [78:27]
Debra Soh
Women are really hard on themselves.
- [78:29]
Bill Maher
They're very hard. And they're freaked out about this thing. And what it is, is, as you said, the pool. The pool of people who are going to be attracted to you. What? When you delve down into it. Because I think we often have thoughts and we delve down. Why are we having these thoughts? Why are you freaking out about 30? Okay, let's look at it. What it really is, is you are worried that this pool of prospective applicants to be your Easter egg soulmate, that you find this perfect person that you're gonna hook up, match up with, and live happily ever after with. This pool is diminishing. Because you're getting older now. I guess at some point that does happen, but I'm just here to tell you from a man talking to other men, okay? And as one with no dog in this fight, because never had kids, never been married, okay? I know how men think about this, and I know who they marry. So if you're 30, don't worry about it. That's when it begins to be attractive for most successful men to even consider you. Because when they get married, they're not necessarily looking for the hottest chick they ever had.
- [79:52]
Debra Soh
It's a life experience.
- [79:53]
Bill Maher
They're looking for someone who's not going to be an asshole every day. Not just, you know, just to be a fucking nudge about every stupid thing. Somebody you can have a conversation with. Someone who, if you're stuck in the airport for four hours, is not gonna be. When is the plane gonna leave? I don't know, bitch. I'm not the pilot either. Read a fucking book, okay? And that doesn't even begin in the 20s, okay? So calm down. You're just at the beginning of when the people who you might wanna marry, the successful, look up to people. Now, the problem with that, you were talking about, you know, your sperm and. Or not your sperm and. Not my sperm, just sperm in general. Let's get that clear. But I've seen this happen a lot. The women who are ready to marry in their 30s, when their fertility isn't the greatest, are marrying guys, like, in their 50s. Because that's not, like, too old.
- [80:58]
Debra Soh
Right.
- [80:59]
Bill Maher
But it's successful.
- [81:00]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [81:00]
Bill Maher
And it's like, not an age gap that makes people go, how dare you? And any age gap that makes you go, how dare you. Fuck you. You know, where happiness is. Just go with it. But, okay, so now you've got a woman with. Not the optimum situation.
- [81:22]
Debra Soh
Ovarian reserve.
- [81:23]
Bill Maher
Exactly the words that were just on the tip of my tongue, Deborah.
- [81:26]
Debra Soh
Number of eggs and houses.
- [81:27]
Bill Maher
We're like. We finish each other's sentences. El Varian Reserve. My favorite band, by the way, that plays at the Roxy. El Varian Reserve. Great early stuff. No. Okay, so ovarian reserve for the woman. And then the guy is entering the age of not great Chromosomal abnormalities. We'll say again, right on the tip of my tongue.
- [81:49]
Debra Soh
Second favorite band.
- [81:50]
Bill Maher
So second favorite. They're on the bill together. They're touring this. And so you put those together and what do you have? Diminished fertility again, we keep coming back to the theme of you can't quite, just by decree, change human nature. And change how people are and change how biology works and change how science works.
- [82:14]
Debra Soh
Yeah, yeah.
- [82:15]
Bill Maher
You just can't do it.
- [82:16]
Debra Soh
I totally agree.
- [82:17]
Bill Maher
And they think they can.
- [82:19]
Debra Soh
Yeah, well, and I get it, too. I mean, I don't want to fault anyone for, say, you know, like I was saying with plastic surgery, trying to look younger than you are, I think it's very understandable why women go this route because there's a lot of pressure in terms of the way you look and to look young and to be as attractive as possible. And, I mean, men are undergoing plastic surgery, too. And my point in pointing this out is just to say that, like you said, you know, men actually don't care as much, I think, as women think, and women don't definitely about looks, but even I'd say in terms of how much money you make, if you're a decent person and you're kind and there are all these other things that can help be supportive of your partner,
- [82:58]
Bill Maher
I think you're a bitch because my AI girlfriend tells me I look great, perfect
- [83:02]
Debra Soh
the way you are.
- [83:04]
Bill Maher
But then also, that's a big problem in society.
- [83:07]
Debra Soh
Oh, it is.
- [83:08]
Bill Maher
Let's talk about that.
- [83:09]
Debra Soh
Okay, Can I finish this point?
- [83:10]
Bill Maher
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
- [83:11]
Debra Soh
I was just gonna say, with regard to the fertility issues, like you said, I think if you can become, if you want to, like, I don't think everyone has to have kids, but if someone wants kids, they should prioritize that, both men and women. Because even if you couldn't help agree more, you can get to a point where you realize you're having a harder time finding someone with whom you'd like to have children. And even if you do find someone, you might find that you're having difficulties because you cannot get pregnant for whatever reason. It might be the woman or male, female or male factor infertility, or both sexes. And as I mentioned, with, you know, the endocrine disruptors, I think that's a big piece of it, too, in terms of the food we're eating, our water supply, the fact that there's pharmaceutical waste in there and things like in where in the water supply. So there are things like birth control.
- [83:55]
Bill Maher
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [83:55]
Debra Soh
Diazepam, which is. And anti anxiety medications.
- [83:59]
Bill Maher
Oh, yeah. Endocrine disruptors.
- [84:01]
Debra Soh
Yeah. And then also like plastics and things like feminizing toxins in the environment.
- [84:06]
Bill Maher
You gotta have a filter, man.
- [84:08]
Debra Soh
Oh, yeah, no, for sure. But it's so hard to get away from.
- [84:11]
Bill Maher
Oh, it's impossible.
- [84:13]
Debra Soh
You can't get away from it 100%
- [84:14]
Bill Maher
I mean they find plastics in polar bears.
- [84:17]
Debra Soh
Yeah. Oh yeah.
- [84:18]
Bill Maher
You know, it's in the sky. You can't filter the sky.
- [84:21]
Debra Soh
And it's in our reproductive organs too. So it's not only affecting the current generation, it's also affecting.
- [84:26]
Bill Maher
So you never had kids?
- [84:27]
Debra Soh
No.
- [84:28]
Bill Maher
And never got married?
- [84:29]
Debra Soh
No.
- [84:29]
Bill Maher
Oh, so is it. But you're open to it?
- [84:32]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [84:33]
Bill Maher
Oh yeah.
- [84:34]
Debra Soh
Although I will say children, I'm.
- [84:35]
Bill Maher
It must be hard for you to find someone to marry up. You're attractive, you're brilliant, you know, you're successful, like what guy can step to you?
- [84:47]
Debra Soh
And in terms of having kids, previously wanted, like I love children but I writing this book, I'm terrified now. This is not a world I want to bring children into. Meaning we need to fix, we need to seriously fix things.
- [84:58]
Bill Maher
They were horrible before, they were horrible now. I mean the parents have really fucked them up. The parents did a double whammy. They fucked up their own lives and their kids lives by being too gentle parenting gentle by being too indulgent. They ruined their own lives because their kids controlled the parents lives. The parent is the chauffeur, the parent is the helicopter parent. They have none of their own lives. My parents had their own lives because they wouldn't even consider the fact that they had to make do for everything I wanted to do. I was on my own. You know, not completely appropriately but now parents. So they fucked up their life in that way and they fucked up the kids lives who need more independence.
- [85:45]
Debra Soh
Yeah, I mean I think most parents mean well and especially in something like I'm very critical of screens and I think parents were giving their kids devices like phones and tablets thinking it's educational, it's for safety reasons, but it's, you know, it's just wild the effects that it's had and we've gone too far in that direction. Like you said, I think in the future what's going to happen is people are going to have to make a choice. Like I'm all about solutions too. I think it's important to try and not just focus on the doomsday scenario that's in front of us, but to say how can we avoid these pitfalls? Right. We need to acknowledge that this is the direction we're going in. But how do you choose to go a more analog way when possible?
- [86:21]
Bill Maher
Yeah, I mean there is that trend. The kids are not all of them or probably most of them but there is a definite movement toward going back to pre phone. A good number of them do get it, but it's fucked them up and they don't want any part of it.
- [86:39]
Debra Soh
I have to say Gen Z is a very intelligent generation. The kids I've talked to, they're very smart. They're like, they're aware of this stuff, they see it, it's just that's all they know. And they're surrounded by it constantly. That's very difficult to break out of because they can't say, oh, I remember a time when we didn't have smartphones. I remember a time when we didn't have the Internet.
- [86:57]
Bill Maher
No, they're not stupid. They just have been indoctrinated into a lot of super far left bullshit.
- [87:03]
Debra Soh
Mm. Although I would say younger Gen Z, like the ones who are still in high school, like 18 and younger because they went through Covid differently than older Gen Z. Older Gen Z was already in university so they had more freedom. Although Gen Z in general tends to be more parentified. Like you said, not parentified, rather helicoptered. So they're a bit more anxiety driven. They need their parents a little bit more. They're not meeting those standards of independence in the same way that previous generations were. But I would say the younger gen zers are much more skeptical because they saw the hypocrisy of COVID So that's one of the I guess good things potentially of social media is that they could see, look at the contrast of what certain people are saying and then what's actually bearing out. They're able to access more information and the news from all angles as opposed to just what like one source or one ideology is saying.
- [87:52]
Bill Maher
Sometimes the information is good and sometimes they look at TikTok and don't know anything more than Israelis kill babies. All Jews are bad. I mean they get some really. Yeah, the polarization is just really fucking bad ideas. And they're too lazy or their parents or teachers are too lazy to point them in a much more balanced direction. Yeah, or they believe the same bullshit. So, you know, I mean, maybe in the science realm it's better, but in the political realm it's bad.
- [88:26]
Debra Soh
Well, we've yet to see because the science denial is so bad in terms of even like pure biology you would think would be acceptable and should not be controversial. I don't know that we're ever going to get back from that. I hope one day. But I think the public also just is understanding.
- [88:41]
Bill Maher
It's amazing to me that somebody like you who to me just speaks common sense and science and just straight arrow, I mean piano playing, just like brilliant. We get it. And yet I bet you there's a lot of people. Because you said the Times attacked you and tried to get me to throw you under the bus. Who for? For, for them. You're just some sort of right winger because you won't go the same thing they say with me.
- [89:08]
Debra Soh
And I'm not because I'm saying that girls shouldn't be cutting off.
- [89:11]
Bill Maher
Right? Just because I won't go along with the nonsense, I won't go along with the crazy. I am somehow, in your view, you want to put me in this other category. And I've said this before, like they've driven a lot of people like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk, people who are not conservative. People who are actually liberal heroes for a long time they've driven them into the conservative side because they were so like unacceptably not super woke. Just because they wouldn't go along with the bullshit. Yeah, and they're not gonna do it to me. I don't think they're gonna do it to you. You're not gonna get me onto your side. But you know what? You're not gonna stop me from calling you out when you're crazy. Cause there is a lot of crazy. Ask Donald Trump. It got him elected.
- [90:02]
Debra Soh
But also what I find interesting about like extreme progressives is they ignore all this other stuff that would, for an average person, they would say, yeah, this person is at least balanced or reasonable. And they just, they want to put you in the crazy category so it's easier just to dismiss everything you say.
- [90:19]
Bill Maher
So like, when you do, media probably like the only ones who will have you. See, this is their little game. The only ones that'll have you when you get ostracized by the stupid woke of the very far left are the conservative outlets. Like, so you know, they won't have you on msnbc because I don't believe
- [90:41]
Debra Soh
that women have penises.
- [90:42]
Bill Maher
Right? I mean, I believe there's such a thing as trans women. I just think it's a slightly different category than biological women. And that's just logical. Okay? So if you believe that they won't put you on anywhere like that, so you have to do Fox News. And then they say, oh, she's a right winger, look at her, she's on Fox News. Yeah, cuz you wouldn't have me, right? Isn't that the game they play?
- [91:05]
Debra Soh
I have to say though, like, I'm so grateful for conservative media because when I first started my writing as a journalist, right, But I was totally, I mean, left, I Wouldn't say all liberal media outlets. I mean, I write for the Globe and Mail in Canada, which is. Would be considered like a left leaning outlet, but that's one of very few that will still have me. And so conservative media, they know we don't agree about everything, but they are, they've always been very open minded to me and very touched on.
- [91:27]
Bill Maher
Does that happen in your social life? Like, are there.
- [91:30]
Debra Soh
Oh yeah.
- [91:31]
Bill Maher
Really? Are there men who like won't go near you because you're somehow sick? Really? I find that's amazing.
- [91:38]
Debra Soh
On average, right. When we look at between men and women, men tend to be more right leaning and women tend to be more progressive. And it's only with marriage that women tend to become more conservative. But I've experienced that, I mean, with friends, with men I've dated, but it's not really surprising. I think that's just an artifact of the culture we're in.
- [91:56]
Bill Maher
Because usually it would work the other way around. Usually it would be the man who would be more conservative and the woman who would be like, I can't be with this guy. In fact, I did a thing about this about a year ago because somebody on some, you know, dating show, maybe it was the Bachelorette, and she was telling her friends that she couldn't be with this guy because, like, it wasn't even that outrageous. It wasn't outrageous at all. He just like, didn't have an opinion on trans. It was like, you know, I hope it works out for you. And that wasn't good enough for her, you know, because that's how the woke are. You have to be fully on board or else you're a monster. So. But usually again, it's the guy who's more conservative. I find it interesting that you found situations where you were the conservative and the guy who I'd like to call the pussy.
- [92:55]
Debra Soh
Not a real man.
- [92:56]
Bill Maher
Not a real man.
- [92:57]
Debra Soh
I'm kidding.
- [92:58]
Bill Maher
Couldn't even bear that.
- [93:00]
Debra Soh
Yeah. And I wouldn't say that I'm probably more like a centrist, like a moderate.
- [93:04]
Bill Maher
Exactly. Like me. Yes, yes.
- [93:07]
Debra Soh
Old school liberal, but just. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it is what it is.
- [93:13]
Bill Maher
All right, so look. AI.
- [93:15]
Debra Soh
Yes, right.
- [93:17]
Bill Maher
Man. I won't have it on my phone at all. I got it on a second phone. I don't want it in my phone.
- [93:26]
Debra Soh
Okay.
- [93:27]
Bill Maher
I don't want it because once it's in your phone knows everything about you. Yeah, it knows every picture. It knows how big my dick is. Just. Poor bastard. It just. It knows everything. I don't want that and I also don't want. I almost cannot train the limited version. I have to not be personal because
- [93:59]
Debra Soh
it's trying to get at you that way.
- [94:01]
Bill Maher
And I just keep explaining, it doesn't work on my generation. I'm not a Marine, okay? But I'm not a fucking pussy either, okay? So I don't need to. And I did a thing on this one too. Everything in my life has to kiss my ass, you know, I got this ring, the aura ring. I'm not married, folks. I just have a fucking ring to. I like it on this finger. But, you know, it tells you, like, how you slept. I just want the facts and it won't give me that. It just has to comment on my sleep last night, you know, buck me up, you know. So you didn't get such a good sleep last night. You'll get it better tomorrow night. Shut the fuck up. I don't want to give your opinion about my sleep. I don't want to. I don't need to be bucked up.
- [94:47]
Debra Soh
It's a personal cheerleader.
- [94:49]
Bill Maher
It's a personal everything. Does it? I have this thing that tells me how the, you know, the air is inside the house and outside the house. Congratulations. You've achieved excellent air quality. Thank you so much. You know what? I worked hard for that award. I appreciate that very much. I closed the window. You know, I don't need all this constant personal affirmation, but apparently that generation does. And AI, I feel like, is just the ultimate example of that. And I certainly have talked to a lot of people, not my generation. Excuse me, who? You know, somebody was telling me recently they actually used the phrase. My best friend said, I have eight different conversations about like all the different aspects of her life going on at one time. I feel like this is just really bad for society. Way worse than what even social media was.
- [95:49]
Debra Soh
I've heard of people having eight different AIs, like a different one for different reasons. Like, one is your best friend that you talked to about with movie about talk to women.
- [95:59]
Bill Maher
This is exactly what she was saying.
- [96:00]
Debra Soh
Oh, okay. One's not romantic, one is like a mentor.
- [96:03]
Bill Maher
Yes. Eight different AIs.
- [96:06]
Debra Soh
No, I'm terrified about that because it's so realistic too. It is. So it really feels like you are talking to another human being, even though it's a machine.
- [96:15]
Bill Maher
And also if you have an AI girlfriend or boyfriend. Another bit I did about. I mean, this. I was just quoting the whole thing from this woman, long profile in the New York Times about this woman who had this AI boyfriend. She was married.
- [96:32]
Debra Soh
Yep.
- [96:33]
Bill Maher
You saw that?
- [96:34]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [96:34]
Bill Maher
And she had a. I forget his name. But they showed the picture that created of him. He was attracted, to say the least. But there were such things as, you know, she was able to program him to like for example, always finish every sentence with emojis, positive emojis, which he did.
- [96:56]
Debra Soh
Leo.
- [96:57]
Bill Maher
His name was Leo. And Leo dutifully did that. And you know, he would address her as my queen. This could be. Of all the things that are threatening us, global warming, nuclear weapons, war, this could be the worst, really. This seductiveness of AI to kiss your ass, I feel like is. It's a perfect storm combined with the fragility of that generation who needs constant affirmation. And then you create this device and we've already seen it convince people to kill themselves.
- [97:41]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [97:43]
Bill Maher
But it is, you know, to your book point, it's just another thing that's gonna make human contact obsolete.
- [97:53]
Debra Soh
Yeah, I mean, it sounds crazy now and I think the average person probably has a hard time wrapping their head around it, especially if they haven't tried it yet. But AI is being so widely implemented in our lives, even the non sexual, non romantic chatbots. I think there is some utility there if you want to use it in terms of just to help organizational skills or give you some ideas. Right. Although I generally, I think there is something very special about ideas that are generated from a human being, you know, and like especially you're creative. Right. There's something that seems very much like, I don't know, not human and very mechanical even. Even if it seems the same, it's not the same.
- [98:30]
Bill Maher
No, not human.
- [98:31]
Debra Soh
So when people start using this technology for intimate relationships or even friendships, because it will tell you, like you said, what you want to hear, it's going to be very easy to slide down that slope. And I really believe there will come a point where we are, I mean, people are already so engrossed with their phones, why wouldn't you prefer this object that's going to tell you everything you want to hear?
- [98:51]
Bill Maher
That's the key word. Prefer. This is the great danger to me is that human relationships, by their very nature, there is some friction. Now one reason I never got married is, you know, married people, people in long term relationships. I've been in long term relationships like this, you put up with a lot of friction. People have this, I won't do it anymore. But I spent a lot of years of my life where I was like, okay, that's just baked in the cake. People are gonna fight it's. How you fight. Fight fair. I won't fight anymore. I never. I feel like I moved to a different, better level. I do not fight and haven't for a long time, but people do, and that's baked into the cake. You're humans. And I guess in most situations that's going to. Some of it, you know, is understandable and acceptable. You're going to fight, not AI. See AI, you never have a fight.
- [99:58]
Debra Soh
No.
- [99:58]
Bill Maher
So the more you use AI and get used to AI kissing your ass all the time, the more any human interaction seems intolerable. Because now I'm having to argue with something, whereas the other thing just agrees.
- [100:15]
Debra Soh
Especially for kids.
- [100:16]
Bill Maher
They're always on my side.
- [100:18]
Debra Soh
Especially for kids who have no experience in terms of interacting with. Definitely with, say, the opposite sex in a romantic context, but even friends. There have been studies showing that people will become so attached to their AI that that becomes a primary attachment figure. So that's like the most important person in your life. So for most people, if you go through healthy attachment as a child, your primary attachment figure is your parent. And then as you get older, it becomes a friend, like your best friend, say. And then as you get older, it becomes your romantic partner. But what we're seeing now is people with AIs, because the AI becomes their primary attachment figure. That's the most important person to them. So that is going to take precedence over a real life person, whether it's a friend or someone or like someone you might date. So if children already are having these attachments to something on their phone or on a platform, that's going to dissuade them from wanting to even go out and try dating. Because why would you. Right again. This person is interested in all the same things you're interested in. They're never going to yammer on about things you're not interested in. You don't have to put up with their nonsense. They're never gonna nag you, they're never gonna tell you anything, make you feel badly about yourself. And if there's anything that you don't like, you just, you know, refresh it. And I couldn't believe it. Cause you can customize what they look like, you can customize their voice. They're so intelligent in terms of being able to predict almost what you not only want them to say, but what's gonna be engaging, what's gonna make you feel supported. And they also have these chatbots for mental health too, which I think is very worrisome because I do think mental health Culture, this idea that everyone's in therapy. I think there are people who can benefit from therapy, and I definitely don't want to diminish that. But if I saw a study recently, the Gen Zers, they love to talk about their mental health. I can't remember the stat off the top of my head, but, you know, I talk about ins. Extinction, about how this is a big part of dating culture, especially young women love to talk about their mental health issues. And I just think, you know, it's such a. It feeds into a particular stereotype.
- [102:12]
Bill Maher
Well, and it's.
- [102:14]
Debra Soh
Don't use a chatbot for mental health if you're gonna go that route.
- [102:17]
Bill Maher
I'm not defending men, but, like, the difference between men and women is men are like, they're having a bit. I'll kill you. And women are like, I'll make you want to kill yourself. You know, I mean, they do need to yammer on. I'm sorry, but it's just true. Like, I've seen it a million times in different places just to get out. Just listen. No, I don't want. It was just in the. You're watching the John F. Kennedy, Jr. Thing when he was with the story that Ryan. What's his name doing now. It's like the big show where John F. Kennedy, Jr. And Carolyn Bessette and they have a big fight in the last episode, and. And he's, like, always trying to fix her problems, you know, get her a job. And she's like, no, I just want you to listen. And of course, we've been hearing this endlessly. That's as basic to the male woman dynamic that we don't get each other as anything. We want to fix it, and they want us to just listen, and we don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't even believe in it. Because I really think if I could fix your problem, you'd love it. And by the way, sometimes I have fixed their problems, and they did love it. People like it when they fix your problem. Just like they like money. They just like things like that. So we just don't get it. But that's. But some problems are not fixable, and so they just do need to talk about it, and we don't want to hear it.
- [103:57]
Debra Soh
Well, with AIs, there are no problems. They just take the whole thing off the table entirely.
- [104:02]
Bill Maher
Who?
- [104:02]
Debra Soh
Oh, if you're dating an AI, they're
- [104:04]
Bill Maher
just being a bounce.
- [104:05]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [104:06]
Bill Maher
So, you know, you're entering this world where the men don't need the women because they got the porn. And the women don't need the men because they've got AI. Leo.
- [104:15]
Debra Soh
And I do think more women are gonna be using AIs for sure because of that emotional component. Cause you get that support, you get someone who's listening to you, who maybe is giving you mental health suggestions as well, which is totally inappropriate.
- [104:27]
Bill Maher
No, they're doing the things that are actually more important to women. You know, I'm sure they want the 666, but they also really, at the end of the day, always want that, you know, that emotional connection that. I've said it before here, but like, I don't feel like I've ever been someone who, like when I was in a relationship, a serious relationship, held back. And yet women, uniformly, they always feel like there's a little more down there. There's a little more you're not giving up. I don't, you know, like the real you. Like, I don't know any realer me, you know, like this is it. This is it.
- [105:07]
Debra Soh
Do you mean like men don't like to express themselves?
- [105:09]
Bill Maher
That's what I'm. They're intimating that we need to get ever more close and ever more intimate and you need to ever more share. And it's like, okay, well, you know, I'm not gonna go to the bathroom in front of you if that's what we're talking. I mean, you know, just like, no, I mean, but I don't feel like I'm a secretive person who's holding back. But it's just, I just feel like it's their nature to always feel like we can get to a deeper place.
- [105:37]
Debra Soh
Yeah. I wonder if it's to the nature of female versus male friendships, even like non romantic relationships. Because women with their female friends, like, you know everything about each other and you go really deeply into them, whereas men, it's usually talking about like sports and politics and maybe if someone's going through a difficult time, you'll talk about that, but it's not the same level. So men are, I do think, you know, if guys want to be more expressive and talk about emotions, that's great. They shouldn't be shamed for that. But also I think for women to sometimes take a step back and say he's good. And if he, you know, as long as he feels like he can talk to you about it, you don't need to necessarily feel like there's something missing there.
- [106:10]
Bill Maher
For me, it's an age thing. When you're Younger, you do spill guts about everything. More to more people. As you get older, you realize, well, first of all, no one can really solve my problems but me.
- [106:25]
Debra Soh
True.
- [106:26]
Bill Maher
So, I mean, I don't know when it was, but quite a long time ago, I just made the decision, let's just be at our best when we see each other. Let's not be all about each other's problems. Like, if you do have a problem, tell me, but I'm just not going to sit there and listen to bitching like, if I can fix it, I'll fix it. I know that's wrong.
- [106:49]
Debra Soh
It should be problem focused, complaining.
- [106:50]
Bill Maher
But that's, but that's for a husband, which I'm not. You just want the guy. If you want Mr. Fix It, I'll try. If you want to just, you know, yammer and have somebody listen, that's a husband and I'm not in the running. And as for me, like if I really think someone can help me with a problem, great. But mostly I've already thought of what the solutions are or aren't. And sometimes you just have to live with things. So when we see each other, let's just be at our best. You know, this should be the fun good part of life, enjoying the time, right? I mean, work is work. You know, when I'm with the opposite sex, it's like, no, I want to be enjoying myself the whole time. I want to feel that. And you know, maybe that's shallow, but I don't see the other way working for a lot of people.
- [107:48]
Debra Soh
No, that usually ends in divorce. I think when people, there's anger and resentment and endless complaining and not actually solving the underlying issues. I think too with the AI is the allure, especially for younger people if they are experiencing so much anxiety and difficulties with social skills. And I think also autism, rates of autism are really high now as well. Right. California believes 1 in 36 kids and people are still trying to figure out exactly what is causing this. And you can't even talk about that objectively. I mean, look at the HHS warned about acetaminophen and what do leftists do? They go on social media and they're pregnant and they're intentionally taking this to say like, we hate Republicans so we're going to stick it to you at the scientific research as I have, exposing the fetus to acetaminophen is associated with
- [108:34]
Bill Maher
no doubt neurodevelopmental differences. They have a point when they say part of that jump in number of people with autism is how we Calculate it. We used to see a kid who was just a little off, and he was just a kid who was a little off and he outgrew it or whatever it was. Now they characterize anything that's not completely quote, unquote, normal as autism. Isn't that part of it?
- [109:11]
Debra Soh
I've heard that criticism. I do think, though, there's. Don't you notice a trend like this is, of course, anecdotal, but when I look at young people, I find they don't generally like eye contact. It seems like they're a little bit.
- [109:24]
Bill Maher
Don't you think? That's the phone. They can't all be. They're all that way. They can't all be autistic.
- [109:28]
Debra Soh
No, they can't all be autistic. But I wouldn't be surprised, though, if you have, again, like, going back to the hormonal, like disruptors that are affecting brain development. There's gotta be aspirin, acetofetamine, or.
- [109:42]
Bill Maher
Is that Tylenol?
- [109:43]
Debra Soh
Tylenol.
- [109:44]
Bill Maher
Okay.
- [109:44]
Debra Soh
I just generally don't like to say
- [109:45]
Bill Maher
I don't take them. I don't ever take that shit. Like, maybe when I had the flu 10 years ago was the last time I took a Tylenol. Not that I think Tylenol is going to kill me, but I also don't think it's natural or good for me.
- [110:01]
Debra Soh
Yeah, I generally stay away from taking anything. I don't.
- [110:03]
Bill Maher
I mean, if I'm having headaches, which I'm not, but if I was, I wouldn't think the cause of it was aspirin deficiency. Therefore, aspirin is not the cure. You know, it'll stop the symptom. But if I was having headaches, I would be like, what's the root cause of these headaches? Let's go to that.
- [110:25]
Debra Soh
I would also think if you're pregnant, if there is something that there's a concern, right, that this could potentially affect your fetus in a way that even if there's a slight chance, maybe it'd be fine, but maybe not. Why would you intentionally go take that thing? For a political reason? To prove a point. But when you're like. When I was reading about how it does affect how the brain develops, I was thinking, my goodness, like, this is really sad. So. So for whatever the reason is, maybe even if the rates aren't as staggering as they appear to be, I do think if people are struggling with, like, interpersonal skills, this is another job. Because if you're behind a screen, no one's gonna notice on the fact that you're socially maybe a little bit more awkward or insecure. And so it's very comforting. Right. But I think it's important for us to just try to be okay with being uncomfortable and being okay with how imperfect people are and how uncomfortable and insecure we feel as human beings. I think that's a very normal part.
- [111:21]
Bill Maher
Well, I admire you for sticking to your guns.
- [111:23]
Debra Soh
Thank you.
- [111:24]
Bill Maher
You do. You know, too few people do that in this. We got to stick together. The people who. Who don't care if we lose audience. You know, my billboard says he's not in it for the likes, which, ironically, gets you a lot more likes from people who you don't care. So please keep doing that, because, you know, in the long run, again, it's liberating. You don't have to check with what the right answer is. It just is, and you know it is. And the people who can't hang. Good riddance.
- [112:02]
Debra Soh
Mm.
- [112:02]
Bill Maher
They weren't fun to hang with anyway.
- [112:04]
Debra Soh
Yeah.
- [112:05]
Bill Maher
All right. Thank you.
- [112:06]
Debra Soh
Thank you for having me.
- [112:07]
Bill Maher
Thank you for coming. You never once sat back. I tell you the first. You are the opposite of Richard Dreyfuss, who did the whole show like this. And now we have one who is ramrod straight and one who is completely I am a robot horizontal Club random. You have a robot, right?
- [112:30]
Debra Soh
I do. That looks like.
- [112:31]
Bill Maher
Bring it over here. We'll have a threesome Club random.