Kevin Spacey | Club Random with Bill Maher

Summary

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Club Random with Bill Maher

Guest: Kevin Spacey

Date: June 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Club Random" features Bill Maher's signature, freewheeling, one-on-one format, hosting actor Kevin Spacey for a candid, personal, and often humorous discussion. The episode diverges from politics to explore show business, fame, scandal, redemption, and the enduring nature of art, layered with reflections on aging in the industry, personal struggles, the realities of cancel culture, and the nuances of identity. The conversation is both serious and irreverent, offering rare insights into Spacey's mindset following his years in "show business jail," his legal battles, and his hopes for a creative future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

On Career, "Show Biz Jail," and Work Ethic

[03:08]–[06:12]

• Love of Acting & Career Decisions:

  • Spacey reflects on his willingness to take any work at certain points in his career, relating to how actors like De Niro and Sam Jackson stay relentlessly busy.
  • On regretful roles: "Every now and then you make a Nine Lives. What can you do?" (Kevin Spacey [03:08])
  • Admiration for actors who keep working regardless of project prestige.

• Comparisons in the Industry:

  • Discusses Bruce Willis's late-career strategy and the notion of actors being used mainly for their celebrity value.

Scandals, Accountability, and Redemption

[06:43]–[18:02]

• Coming Out, Being Closeted, and Media Pressures:

  • Maher probes Spacey on why he stayed closeted ("so much cooler to be gay"), and Spacey talks about intense privacy and the impact of media scrutiny.
  • Quote: "I was fiercely closeted. I didn't want anyone to know anything about me. And of course I thought I was so clever that no one knew. But of course, kind of everybody knew." (Kevin Spacey [14:19])
  • On not coming out earlier: "For me, I'm sorry that I didn't have that courage earlier in my life." (Kevin Spacey [64:42])

• Legal Battles and Public Perception:

  • Spacey recounts winning almost every case against him ("I’ve been found not guilty in every court we've gone into with a jury" [09:00]).
  • Detailed explanation of the Anthony Rapp case, exposing factual inconsistencies (studio apartment, not separate bedroom, testimony of John Barrowman).
  • On perspective: "I never said there was no fire. It just wasn't a raging forest fire." (Kevin Spacey [08:24])
  • Reflects on the societal tendency to assume guilt from volume of accusations, and the difficulty in distinguishing truth, changed mores, and fabrication.

• "Prison Sentence" of Ostracization:

  • Spacey describes nine years being shut out of the industry and public life after 2017’s allegations.
  • Emphasizes therapy, personal growth, and public interactions (especially in Europe) that were unexpectedly positive.
  • Maher: "I think a 10 year sentence is a serious sentence. And I know, like, I don't know, thank God, but I surmise that, like, it's a, it's an everyday sentence..."

Reflections on Hollywood Culture & Comedians

[23:34]–[47:08]

• Aging and Artistic Evolution:

  • They discuss actors who matured well in their craft (Spencer Tracy, Paul Newman, Jack Lemmon), Spacey’s inspirations, and his excitement for deeper roles after time spent in introspection.
  • Spacey: "Now I have gone into myself. I am closer to myself than I've ever been... I am ready now to share parts of myself that prior I wasn't." [24:21]

• Mentorship Memories:

  • The story of Jack Lemmon's encouragement at age 13 ("That was a touch of terrific" [31:15]), leading to acting together years later.
  • Stories about Hollywood camaraderie, telegrams from Jay Leno, and admiration for Dick Van Dyke.

• Comedic Grounding:

  • Maher and Spacey bond over their backgrounds in comedy, their early idols (Carson, Seinfeld, Robert Klein), and the grind of making it as a comic.
  • Anecdotes about performing on the Tonight Show, and the difference between various hosts like Carson and Leno.

Cancel Culture, Double Standards & Art

[34:18], [36:15]–[37:01], [51:25]–[52:10]

• Cancelled Art & Inconsistent Standards:

  • Spacey laments Netflix shelving his film "Dear Mr. Vidal" despite its artistic quality, and contrasts with Hollywood’s tolerance for other controversial figures.
  • Memorable Reflection: "I don't think art should be fucked with over allegations alone." (Kevin Spacey [36:15])

• On Public Support and Media Divide:

  • Notes support from segments of the right (e.g., Douglas Murray), but "not a single journalist has stood up and said anything in my favor for nine years" from the left.
  • Spacey: "On the left, not a single journalist has stood up and said anything in my favor for nine years." [52:10]

• The "Woke" Era's Impact on Acting:

  • Both critique current casting debates ("if you aren't actually a Danish prince, you can't play Hamlet," quoting Sean Penn [63:22]).
  • Spacey on young actors: "I feel for these younger actors ... they feel so much pressure about declaring what they are and who they are." [63:55]

AI, the Future of Creativity & Art

[54:16]–[63:19]

• AI in Hollywood:

  • Maher is cautiously skeptical; wants AI to cure real-world problems, not invade artistic spaces.
  • Spacey expresses faith in the uniquely human, collaborative unpredictability of real filmmaking.
  • On AI and acting: "The memories that I have of working with incredible directors... AI can't do any of that. And that's about trust, and that's about working and collaborating with other human beings. And I just don't have any fear about that being replaced." (Kevin Spacey [59:41])

• Creative Adaptation:

  • Discussion of Martin Scorsese joining an AI company and taking controversial stances, advocating instead for engagement and openness to technological advances.

Personal Growth, Community, and Relationships

[71:53]–[113:19]

• Mental Health & Coping:

  • Both revisit the emotional lows of show business and how tools like therapy, and strong personal connections (Spacey’s friendship with Evan Lowenstein), are transformative.

• Friendship vs. Romance:

  • Spacey clarifies the closeness with his longtime business partner Evan ("I love him. But not in that way." [112:51]), admits to being "in the market" for a steady boyfriend, and jokes about relationships.

• Aging, Legacy, and Gratitude:

  • Spacey shares his excitement for new projects (concerts, a film about the Holocaust, and a new one-man show about Clarence Darrow and another about Preston Sturges).
  • Expresses contentment, gratitude, and hope for a creative resurgence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Overcoming Scandal:
  • “I never said there was no fire. It just wasn’t a raging forest fire.” (Kevin Spacey, [08:24])
• On Coming Out:
  • "It was actually not an easy thing, and I resisted it for a long, long time. I'm sorry I didn't have that courage earlier." (Kevin Spacey, [64:53])
• On Cancel Culture & Art:
  • “I don’t think art should be fucked with over allegations alone.” (Kevin Spacey, [36:15])
• On Human Creativity:
  • "AI can't do any of that. That’s about trust, and that’s about working and collaborating with other human beings. And I just don't have any fear about that being replaced." (Kevin Spacey, [59:41])
• On Hollywood’s Selective Morality:
  • "Some people get that pass and some do not... I don’t think art should be fucked with over allegations alone." (Kevin Spacey, [36:15])
• On Coming Back to Work:
  • "I feel very blessed... and I couldn't be happier to be going to work." (Kevin Spacey, [108:42])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 03:08–06:12 | Spacey on career peaks, working for work's sake | | 06:43–18:02 | Scandal, coming out, legal battles, societal changes | | 24:21–25:22 | Therapy, growth, excitement for future work | | 31:15 | Jack Lemmon's mentorship and "a touch of terrific" | | 36:15–37:01 | Artistic integrity vs. cancellation | | 51:25–52:10 | Right v. left media support and cancel culture | | 59:41 | AI and the future of filmmaking | | 63:22 | Sean Penn "Danish Prince/Hamlet" casting critique | | 64:53 | Spacey on his coming out process | | 71:53 | Mental health, darkness in show business | | 80:00–83:03 | Reflections on Carson, Leno, and late night comedy | | 108:42 | Upcoming concerts, film projects, future aspirations | | 112:07–112:49| Gratitude and friendship with Evan Lowenstein |

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by a blend of biting humor, self-awareness, and sincere personal reflection. Maher’s approach is unfiltered but balanced—probing when necessary, but also giving space for humor and lived experience. Spacey comes across candid, bruised but resilient, cutting with wit but showing humility and gratitude.

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Conclusion

This Club Random episode offers a rare window into Kevin Spacey’s state of mind in 2026. It’s a nuanced, often funny, and sometimes moving exploration of a celebrated but scandal-scarred actor seeking both personal reconciliation and professional revival. Through Maher’s relaxed but incisive presence, listeners get not only Spacey’s take on scandal, forgiveness, and art’s resilience but also a broader meditation on fame, aging, and what it means to survive—and persist—through turbulent times.

Transcript

[Kevin Spacey]

Lamine. Yamal steps into McDonald's, looks left, sees Pulisic, looks right, sees Jimenez, gives a nod to Ronaldinho in the corner with a FIFA World cup meal. Ronaldinho sees son in the booth. Son finds Beckham going for extra Big Mac sauce.

[Announcer]

He's got Davies at the table just behind him.

[Kevin Spacey]

Davies going for his collectible cup. A steal by Henry, who pulls his own collectible cup.

[Announcer]

Collect one of nine legendary cups with

[Kevin Spacey]

a FIFA World cup meal at participating

[Announcer]

McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last. All rights reserved. 20:26 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 20:26

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Comedian/Interviewer]

While you were remodeling your backyard to make it more, you know, zen y, we were remodeling our merch store to make it more random. We've slapped our new logo on T shirts, tie dyes, hoodies, and hats. And all with premium printed labels. Look, I wasn't kidding. We have it. Because tags are like the junk mail of clothing. All merch is available [e-mail]. once again, that's Club Random.

[Kevin Spacey]

If someone has a problem with you, why do they wait until they're sitting in front of a journalist and then they turn it into a story?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Who did that?

[Kevin Spacey]

Club Random. I. I have to share with you something I've never said publicly.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I guess we're telling tales out of school. We might as well Club Random. And is Kevin Spacey really here?

[Kevin Spacey]

He's really here.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow. Man of his word. I thank you for having me. Hey, you kidding? Really?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Oh, thank you so much.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I can't wait to talk to you. I mean, I was so excited all Day because I don't see you. Obviously there are reasons of an unpleasant nature that prevent you from being. But you know, for the longest time, you know, you were just. I'll say this, I don't know if we could talk about, you know, obviously punishment, crime, what fits. But like, you were always a working actor for you to like lose working. You look like you always seem to be the kind of guy who like loves to be on a set. Definitely like De Niro's like that, right? They just go from one the. That's why they do some shit. Because you just. You'd rather work on some shit than not work, right?

[Kevin Spacey]

You'd rather work on some shit. Although, you know, when you start off, you know, no matter what the film or play or television thing is, you always think, oh, I'm gonna try to do my best work and I'm gonna believe in it. And you know, and every now and then you make a nine lives. What can you do?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What was that? Was it a bad movie you were in?

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I turn into a cat.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But how. Where. Where in your career was this?

[Kevin Spacey]

It was at a point where I was willing to make a movie just

[Comedian/Interviewer]

for money because you were. Because you were past. You were very bankable.

[Kevin Spacey]

I was a bankable star. And I had no idea that a

[Comedian/Interviewer]

movie about unusual suspects and.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh yeah, this is. This is like, you know, after House of Cards.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, oh, I see.

[Kevin Spacey]

This was. Yeah, this was, this was a movie that. I never knew that a movie about a cat could be such a dog. You know what I'm saying?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Is that how you went and promoted it? Yeah, I know there was a time when, I mean, poor Bruce Willis now in bad shape. And I knew him a long time ago pretty well for a little while when he was first out here and he hung out at the comedy clubs. But there was a time when I would see. When I would watch movies in hotels. That's where I see all my movies. Sure, for a while that stopped, but it used to be a real treat in a hotel room because they would have the first run movies, but you'd buy it. Of course it wasn't. And so like.

[Kevin Spacey]

So you weren't watching the porno, Is that what you're saying?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

There was moments when I did break down, but it kind of sucked because if you can. Can't fast forward, right?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, that's. That's true. You mean get past the story points?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, right. This is so long ago. There were story porn.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That's not how porn Is today.

[Kevin Spacey]

But I'm saying you watch Force Gump on a hotel television. Is that what you're saying?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. That would not have been my choice.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What I was saying about the working for horror movies.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Not horror. Horror.

[Kevin Spacey]

Horror.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah. There was a time when like you could see Bruce Willis like along as you scrolled through the movies. There would be like at one time three or four you'd never heard of with him. And he always had like a very small part. I'm sure they shot it in a week or less.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But it was a tribute to how big his name is.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That you could slap him on there. All these movies and they would go straight to the video. But somebody was making money.

[Kevin Spacey]

We were. I was just in the car with Evan Lowenstein. Who. I know Evan and Jaron. We were just talking about the fact that you know Sam Jackson. When I think about how many movies Sam Jackson has been in and a number of them are films that, you know, he must have worked a couple of days and they paid him a shitload of money.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kevin Spacey]

To say motherfucker or whatever it is that they wanted him to say. And I'm like, good for him, you know.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

Look at all the movies he made. How much money? All the movies he made made. It was incredible.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Especially since we know he do so much more. So it's. It's funny when you.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's the best. I did a movie with him called the Negotiator that I absolutely love. And I always wish that we done a sequel to it. Cuz I think it's. It's sequel material.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you played a negotiated or. He did.

[Kevin Spacey]

I played the negotiator.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really?

[Kevin Spacey]

He played. Yeah, he played a. A cop who been falsely accused.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I would have pegged you for the psycho.

[Announcer]

Really?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I'm kidding. No, you. You. You have had a very broad range. I mean you. You were never sort of like.

[Kevin Spacey]

What are you talking about? I was never into broads. Hey, wait a minute. Hey, just a second. Hello. Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. Thank you so much.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know what, Kevin? I never understood why you kept that a secret. Like it kept. There's a point where it was like so much cooler to be gay. Like, I don't want to inject myself into this, but honestly, I mean, I don't get a lot of breaks from the media especially, you know, they're a little too woke and blah blah, blah. If I. Who they're pretty rough on.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

If I at some point had come out as gay, I. They would be like, it would be the greatest thing that ever happened. I mean, and I would be fetid and that would just.

[Kevin Spacey]

You're a little gay, you know? No, no, not even a little.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, you're pinned against a guy against the wall with that kind of a question, and it just. It makes you sound gay when you admit that you're not. You fucking.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, cheers.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

Thank you for having me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Thanks for being here.

[Kevin Spacey]

And I know you've been talking about having me, and it's been meant a lot to me. There's just been a period of years where the advice that Evan and I were getting was that because I was dealing with court stuff, that I just couldn't come out, look. And have the kind of conversations I would like to have had.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, look, I'm not gonna lie to you. I mean, I go by numbers with scandals I say go by. And it's an interesting question maybe to ask you, like, if it's like one person. I'm always like, well, I don't know. If I wasn't in the room when it gets to, like, you know, you've. It's like, come on, man. There's just too much smoke to be no fire.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I never said there was no fire.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

It just wasn't a raging forest fire.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

It was a small kitchen fire that could have been put out with an extinguisher.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

To me, the most important point in this case, and we discussed all the. Is that at a certain point, the law does have to have some merit with people. You had like five, I think five ones I heard about. And each time. Yeah, that's just the truth. The, you know, just. They lost you. You. I think you're like five and.

[Announcer]

Oh.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Or something.

[Kevin Spacey]

We lost one. So, yeah, we've been found not guilty in every court we've gone into with a jury.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right. And one. Elton John didn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

He testified in a case in Great Britain.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Why was he. Why was he.

[Kevin Spacey]

Because,

[Comedian/Interviewer]

like, gay celebrities hanging out together. Weird.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, it wasn't about a party or anything like that. It was about the fact that a person who had accused me of something had also made up something about him. And. And he felt it was very important that the Jew hear that this person was not consistently telling the truth.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Do you think there's more making up in the gay community? Making up, make. Well, making up stuff. You said. You said he made up something about.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, he made up something about. About.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you're and the reason why I assume you've won five times is the juries thought that people were making stuff up. Well, not that there wasn't nothing.

[Kevin Spacey]

No. And there are certain cases where part of something is true, but it's been rethought, it's been redesigned, or it's been entirely made up. Certainly in the case of Anthony Rapp, which is a case that we won in federal court in New York, which one was that? Anthony Rapp sued me. He was the first person to accuse me of something from 31 years before in 2017, under why my whole.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I know that name. I've heard it.

[Kevin Spacey]

The circumstance was he did an article in buzzfeed magazine in which he accused me of being attracted to him and wanting to be sexual with him when he was a teenager, when he was just a kid. And it took us until we got to court many years later in 2022, to be able to prove that, in fact, the entire story was not true. The foundation of the story he built around a bedroom in an apartment that he said I rented, in which he'd gone into a bedroom at a party that I threw. He'd been invited to this party and that at some point, very drunk, I came into that bedroom, leaned against the door, was so drunk I probably wouldn't remember, and that this encounter happened. But as it turned out, and as we proved in a court of law, I lived in a studio apartment. There was no bedroom, there was no door. There was all. The entire foundation of what he told this story around completely crumbled with the evidence. And also, we had incredible testimony by John Barrowman, who was a friend of his at the time and had been to my apartment with him. The only time he'd ever been in my apartment was when they came to meet my dog. So the whole thing was made up.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay, so listen, I'm not that kind of interviewer who, like, this is not that kind of a show where, like, I do my homework and, like, I don't even remember this guy's name. Plainly. This is not 60 minutes, clearly. But I'm also. I feel like Anderson, I'm very disappointed.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm also fair, and I also am. You know, I think my bond with Marien's truthful. So, truthfully, again, like, 20. Like, when 20 people feel like something like, that's a lot of people. It's a lot of smoke. It's a lot of. I don't know. There is always nuance and people. It's terrible. I think that people skip over it and one of them is time. Mores change people. They just do. People acted differently. I mean, we get better generally as we're more enlightened. But. But, you know, you must have known you were, you know, forward. Shall we in the. Teach the old parlance, a forward.

[Kevin Spacey]

I hit on a lot of guys.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, but hitting on. And like, I mean, yeah, I did a bit about the one again. You got off. Totally. I mean, I think the jury was like, took two hours to say the kid in the piano bar.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, yeah. That actually never went to trial.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

That never went to trial because he. They tampered with evidence and then he took the fifth. In a pre trial meeting with my lawyer.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm just again remembering this from the. I used to do a bit about it in my act. Oh, you did? In your defense. Because the bit was, as I read, as I recall, I mean, that like he says, like your cock was in his hand for like three minutes and then he like said something and I remember, like, Mr. Spacey. Wasn't that part of it?

[Kevin Spacey]

In a very crowded bar with lots of people looking at me?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, your cock could have been. But if you're. If it's there for three minutes.

[Kevin Spacey]

My cock was never in his hand.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, no.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He.

[Kevin Spacey]

He, he claimed something else, but yeah, that, that, that one never even got to court. That one was thrown out.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But isn't. I mean, this is a really inappropriate question that, you know, again, Keith Morrison I don't think is going to ask, but like, come on, man. There is a difference between the heterosexual world and the gay world. I'm not saying that excuses bad behavior. I'm just saying, like, there's no equivalent of a bathhouse in the heterosexual world. Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

Palm Springs. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What?

[Kevin Spacey]

No, but isn't that gay? Look, I would say this. I certainly, over the years that I have been an actor and I certainly, I was very, very closeted. I was fiercely closeted. I didn't want anyone to know anything about me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

And of course I thought I was so clever that no one knew. But of course, kind of everybody knew.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I kn. Yeah, you knew.

[Kevin Spacey]

And I never got near you. All right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I did a great joke about you that the audience just completely didn't get. At the 1997 Oscars. It was Hally Joel Osmond.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Remember the Bruce Willis movie?

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure, the Bruce Willis movie.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. What was it? And maybe you were up against him or you were there.

[Kevin Spacey]

I see Dead People. Yes.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I see Dead People movie.

[Kevin Spacey]

Exactly.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

The Oscars went on so long this year by the end of the evening, Haley Joel Osmond had a beard and Kevin Spacy didn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's a good joke.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

So good. And they laughed at the first part.

[Kevin Spacey]

And they don't know what a. Oh, that's so interesting.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They didn't know what a beard.

[Kevin Spacey]

Or maybe you should have said, I see gay people.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They're not. They're not sophisticates like us, Kevin.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You see, we're sophisticates. That's the part of me that's gay. I'm very fucking sophisticated.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

So where. Where were we in my grilling? Well, you know, the question to me now is like, I think you. I think my spidey instinct is, yeah, you should get. You should have gotten some punishment. You. I think you were a little too forward, shall we say? Made a lot of. Obviously, people got uncomfortable. The question now is, you paid a lot. You know, it's like when Bernie says rich people don't pay taxes. I'm like, who the fuck do you think I pay, like 60%? You.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay. It's like, how much is enough paying? So, like, when did this start? So let's say. Let's talk about your sentence that you've served.

[Kevin Spacey]

This started to put that on. This started in 2017.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

In October 2017, this began. And I would say.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you're not exaggerating, you're still in show business jail.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, I. I feel less in jail than I did.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

I do certainly now feel that when people look at things and when they. I know, as you said, you didn't really pay attention to the details, and I know most people don't, but I think when people actually start to hear the facts, understand what we want in courts, I think people now look at this and think, maybe nine years has been enough.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, that's the question.

[Kevin Spacey]

If I had been a sports figure, I would have been benched for seven games. Do you know what I mean?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Why you say. Why are you comparing it to that?

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, because that's what happens. The sports person is accused of something and they're benched for seven days, seven games, and then they're back on the field.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Sports figures have been tr. I mean, who's the guy who. I'm shouldn't. It's not funny. But he clocked his wife in the elevator and he never played again.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, I don't. I don't know about that particular case, but I'm saying, well, if you're hitting home runs, they. They. They want you on the field.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes, I think, I mean, yeah, yeah, you're right.

[Kevin Spacey]

So I believe we're at a point now where I think people are now beginning to look at what actually happened. And I'm, I feel much more welcomed and I think that things are moving in the, the direction that we, we hope they're moving in.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Because I think a 10 year sentence is a serious sentence. And I know, like, I don't know, thank God, but I surmise that, like, it's a, it's an everyday sentence. I mean, you know, certain parts of it, you can't go out, right?

[Kevin Spacey]

I go out all the time.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, always. Always throughout this whole thing.

[Kevin Spacey]

Not throughout the whole thing. I would say in 2018, I didn't really want to be seen.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Kevin Spacey]

And I sort of kept to myself. And I actually started wearing a mask before, which was pretty funny that I was wearing a mask because I didn't want to be seen. But then I got through that and I did an enormous amount of therapy. I went through a lot of programs that were very helpful, incredibly helpful for me. And then in 2019, Evan suggested that we sort of take a trip. And so we went around Europe for off and on about six months. And we backpacked, literally. And that was when I was able to, without a hat, without glasses, without hiding in any way, just go onto the world. And I can tell you that we were stopped 70 times a day by people who were so generous and so happy to see me and asking, when are you going back to work?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

This is Europe.

[Kevin Spacey]

This is all over Europe, all over, everywhere. I mean, it's been that way.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And I feel like Europe is a more forgiving. It's an older culture, you know, it's

[Kevin Spacey]

been the same way in the United States.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They're cool with perverts.

[Kevin Spacey]

It's been the same way in the United States. It's been the same in the United States. Everywhere I go. I know there's people online that say nasty things, but I've not met one of them in real life.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That is an interesting phenomena I've also experienced. And it's funny, you know, you want to say it back to the media and I won't about, you know, anything, because you just don't want to pick that fight with them. But sometimes when I see Trump just speak his complete internal monologue without, you know, doing things that it's just like he will say something. And the one I'm thinking of is like, I've wanted to say that he just, when he was. Somebody pissed him off in an interview. And he just went, you're a terrible person.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right, right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And it's like, I can't deny I got. You've wanted to say. There's a moment where I would. That's exactly what I was thinking. A terrible person.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's not a sincere question. It's a gotcha thing. It's a, you know, virtue signaling thing.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure, sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You don't believe it yourself, but I don't.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Not our president. He does that. Are you. Are you have plans for the fourth of July?

[Kevin Spacey]

I. I don't have. I haven't made plans yet, but I. I think there's a lot to celebrate.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I was just working on a piece for the show that says that exact same thing. It's amazing that especially. I don't want to keep picking on the kids, but the younger generations, they just don't have good perspective either about how much better they have it than people anytime before them, and how much better they have it here than almost anywhere else in the world.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. I'm also very optimistic, and I believe whatever. I mean, look, what I just said, I think, echoes what I mean by this, which is that the society that I have met, the society that I've been introduced to, the people that have come at me over the last nine years have not been divisive and angry and pissed off, and they have been so welcoming and lovely and loving that a. I'm so happy that that's the society that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Where do I fall on this scale?

[Kevin Spacey]

You fall very much in the. You have been incredibly supportive because Evan has told me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

I know you've wanted me on this show for a long time. You've been very much on side, and that means a lot to me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I'm keeping it real and not letting you off the hook. Yeah. You know, because that's the reality. But again, we all go through life and the judgmentalness of, like, everything is a hanging offense or, you know, it's always a life sentence. It's like, no things are proportionate. That's how the real law works. You know, not everything is the death penalty.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's true.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And it's just, again, I hate to pick on the kids, but they just don't have any perspective about how lucky they are. The idea that when we. I mean, we're around the same age. I mean, I'm 70. I don't think you hit that yet.

[Kevin Spacey]

I haven't yet.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay. But you're on the way.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm 66.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You look good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Thank you, sir.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

By the way for the stress that it must have been. You look good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Thank you, sir.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You look like you could, you know, I mean, play. Play the, you know, at that age. Again, we're close. All you can do is. The best you can do is be like, not hard to look at.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's. Is that the review? It's not hard to look at.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Is that terrible? No, not at all. For our age, I think that's pretty good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, we're not Glen Powell. We never were. I mean, that's actually much more of an achievement for you in a way because like, you know, I was in Commentary, I'm a comedian. But you were like playing leading man parts.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, and if I look at the actors that I grew up admiring, Spencer Tracy, Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, Cagney, I mean, these actors had decades and decades and decades of being at the top of their profession. And many of them, Paul Newman aged incredibly well, played fantastic parts when they were over 60.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, the Verdict.

[Kevin Spacey]

He did an incredible thing. Yeah. The Verdict's one of the great Paul Newman movies ever.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Oh, no. And I think actors are better in their 50s, 60s when they get in that. Right there. There is something that is. Takes obviously decades to get to this sort of level of, you know, the old thing, don't get caught acting, you know, where it's just. It's just the most naturalistic kind of performance.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm also. I'm at a point because of the last nine years where I had never done therapy before. I had never gone into myself. I had never spent the kind of time that I've spent doing the programs I've done. And I'm closer to myself. I'm closer to my family, I'm closer to my friends than I've ever been. And I'm very curious now. I mean, I've had a couple of wonderful opportunities in the last couple years to do some really work that means a lot to me. But I'm really at a point where I'm so excited about what my work is going to be like because now I have gone into myself. I am closer to myself than I've ever been. And I'm really excited about working with a collaborators. Collaborator, a director particularly, who's going to bring that out of me because I am ready now to share parts of myself that prior I wasn't.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody doubts if you got your meat into a great part.

[Kevin Spacey]

Did you say my meat? I'm sorry, what did you say?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm sorry.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, because we were. I thought we were beyond that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Sorry.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm sorry.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I had a little pot before I came over. I mean, I'm trying to keep my

[Kevin Spacey]

meat out of things. All right? I'm trying to move on, you understand, with mixed success.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Let's be honest. I mean, like, did we just lose a sponsor? You know? A sponsor? Are you kidding? As if we're taping this. But that would be embarrassing. But you did always strike me. Again, this is from way afar. And just how people talk that. I mean, I'm not being snarky about it, but there are different kinds of. As with heterosexuals, gay people. Most heterosexuals get married. And then when gay marriage became a thing, we saw zillions of people who acted just like the heterosexuals. Bored, you know, but together and fighting. Exactly.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And then there was people like me, heterosexual, unlike you. But I feel like I was a guy who never wanted to get married and didn't. A single was like, no, this is actually more fun, and I'm gonna do it. And I feel like you were that guy in the gay world. It was just. It's just more fun.

[Kevin Spacey]

It was definitely that guy in the gay world. But I will also say this. You may not remember this, but do you remember, like, the first times that we met?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, God. Cut.

[Kevin Spacey]

Because you're. Love this. Because it was at the Playboy Mansion.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Kevin Spacey]

I lived there Now, I don't know whether or not you. I can't quite remember. I remember seeing you at the Playboy. I have a memory of you there. But I also used to go there on Sundays because Hefner used to love to show movies with, like, a piano player. And I went there a couple of times, and I think you were there.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I did, but I was invited, I think, every Sunday. But I did not make a habit of it. I went on the 4th of July. Right, right. That's the. I remember that. But did you go in the grotto? Did you do that? No. There are diseases that Columbus brought over. Are you kidding? I mean, the grotto. No.

[Kevin Spacey]

And now someone's not bought it and totally changed it, Right? Or is it still.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't know. I haven't been up to the old haunted mansion.

[Kevin Spacey]

It was.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And, you know, they said, I don't know if this is true. Don't sue me if it wasn't. But I think I read that, like, there was mold.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, it just.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And, of course, you can't be elderly and breathing mold. You know, it just shows you the. You can be so brilliant and successful in one way, and then you don't take care of the mold.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, yeah. That, by the way, is the best philosophy I've heard all week. If you don't take care of the mold, what's the point? So I'm talking like I'm in Palm Beach. Sorry.

[Announcer]

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[Kevin Spacey]

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[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, I can tell you're itching to get in the game. And you tell, and by the way, not to, you know, scare you, but, like, I would do it sooner than later because, like, you're still, like I said, you look generically late, middle aged. You can play anything there. You can even have a love interest who's 30. You know, I mean, a woman. Yuck. But, I mean, it's yucky pussy. But you're a great actor.

[Kevin Spacey]

You not saying I can't play a wonderful gay character as well?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What?

[Kevin Spacey]

That I could play a wonderful gay character as well.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, you could now?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Now that the cat's out of the bag. Hang on. You don't want to be. At a certain point, you know, you're iconic. So if it all goes under the bridge, you could have another 10 years of, you know, doing really good stuff, and then you gotta do Bad Grandpa. There's a point.

[Kevin Spacey]

Just Bad Grandpa. That's fantastic. That sounds like a part Jack Lemmon would have played.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, De Niro played it.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, Bad Grandpa.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, you didn't see it?

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, if I did Bad Grandpa, I'd do it like Lemon. No, yourself.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right. You're a good impressionist. You do.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, you know, he was my mentor.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Lemon, I do see similarities in your work.

[Kevin Spacey]

I Meant I do. I met Jack Lemmon. You will not know this, but when I was in junior high school, I went to Parkman Junior High School in the Valley here. I went to the Mark Taper Forum for a theater audition workshop that he was running. And I got up and did a little monologue. And at the end, he walked over to me, I was 13 years old. And he said, that was a touch of terrific.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really?

[Kevin Spacey]

He said, no, everything. I just talked about this young actor. What's your name? I said, kevin. He said, but listen to me. He said, when you get finished with school here, you should go to New York and you should study to be an actor because this is what you're meant to do with your life.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

And 13 years later, wow. I went to New York, I went to Juilliard, and I got the opportunity to audition to play his son in a production of Long Day's Journey into Night. And I won the part. And Jack and I did that play for a year and he played my father in that. And then we did three other projects together, ending with Glengarry Glen Ross.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Everyone on the show has these awesome stories about their show business passed and I got nothing.

[Kevin Spacey]

You got nothing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Who was here last week?

[Kevin Spacey]

And they were like, didn't Dangerfields discover you in a bathroom somewhere?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That's about it. And you think of a grotier scene than. I mean, I loved him, but he used to come in. He was. When I first started in 1979 at Catch A Rising Star was the big club in New York.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I was in Juilliard at that point.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Were you aware of Catch? Absolutely.

[Kevin Spacey]

I had to do stand up comedy because I was working on my Johnny Carson impression.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I never saw you there in that era. 79 to 83. I was.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, I know that you do a great car.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, sure. I love. I love Johnny. I do know this is true. I don't make this up. There was an earthquake in Los Angeles this morning. You may not have known it. I was sitting in a hotel room and all of a sudden the hotel starts to move. I thought Ed had fallen out of bed, but then I realized, how can you fall off a floor? No, that's not true. Ed's. The lady slept like a log last night. Which is true. Cause when I got up, he was in my fireplace. Weird guy. Anyway.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, kids do.

[Kevin Spacey]

You know, I did his show once before he retired. I got to do Carson with Carson.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You think the kids know who that is? What percentage of some do? I mean, I Hope so to me. No, many will not.

[Kevin Spacey]

Many will not. But, God, I miss him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, I do, too.

[Kevin Spacey]

I really miss him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But I also say I even wrote it once when he died. I did something for Time magazine. I think he died in 2001 or something. And I did say, as much as I gave him his props, that Lena was the right person for his era. You have to be the right person in that job for the era. Johnny was great. When Conversations breathed a little more.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yep.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

When people didn't have smartphones and attention spans like Annette and, you know, they had been educated and, you know, he used to have Gore Vidal on, and then it was just like. Just the talk show became more like of a. Just more of a party than a conversation.

[Kevin Spacey]

Do you know I played Gorb at all?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, but you'd be a great choice.

[Kevin Spacey]

I played Gore Vidal in a movie that we shot in 2017 in Italy.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What movie? What movie?

[Kevin Spacey]

It's a movie called Dear Mr. Vidal, and Netflix has shelved it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I see. This is what I mean about show business. Jail. Okay. That's.

[Kevin Spacey]

It's. By the way, I've seen it. It's completed. It's ready.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

And it is a shame that they've shelved it because the director, the screenwriter Michael Skulberg, who plays Gore's lover of 40 something years, I think would win an Academy Award for his performance. The other actors, the crew, they're also being punished, and they shouldn't be. And I hope Netflix grows up about it because it's an incredible movie, and I have to say, I think it's one of the best films I've ever done. Wow. So I would love for that movie

[Comedian/Interviewer]

to finally get seen, but they own it outright.

[Kevin Spacey]

They own it?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

And they say they don't want to release it. So I say give it to us and we'll get it released. Give it to Paramount.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, we can't have. We can't have people watching movies from bad people. Oh, that's what I said.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I see. I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

We can't have people watching now. Did you see the Michael Jackson movie?

[Kevin Spacey]

I did not.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm joking. You see?

[Kevin Spacey]

Did you see it?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, but I'm just saying people are.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Are like, Gaga, it's gonna make a billion dollars. And look, I don't think he should. You know, first of all, as I always say, the music didn't rape anybody, you know?

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, and also, I think the movie takes place at a time when it was before he was ever accused of it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I know. But if people were really being consistent about this shit, I mean, fuck, you know, even Oprah came in on the side of, I believe the kids. So, you know, it's so inconsistent. If you. If you want to, you know, forgive and just enjoy the art. Some people get that pass and some do not. Or some get. You know, again, I think in your case, I don't.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I would say this. I don't think art should be fucked with over allegations alone.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Of course not.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's what I think.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But that part is never going to happen. Humans are humans. They love to believe a rumor.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. But in the end, I also believe that, you know, we're gonna figure this out. It's gonna correct itself in a way that I think we'll look back and go, what the fuck are we going through?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, that already has started to take place. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, it's not like, you know, it's not like that's gonna fall easily. Andrew Sullivan had a great line last week. He said, you know, woke isn't dead. It's just waiting

[Kevin Spacey]

like an assassin.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, I mean, by the way, do

[Kevin Spacey]

you put this picture up here deliberately?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Why isn't it.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, it's an Oswald. It's a shot of Oswald being shot.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, no, you're not looking at it. It's using the original picture of the sheriff and Oswald. Oh, he's got a microphone. Yeah. One is playing guitar. He looks. It's making them look like they're in a band.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I see.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Fantastic.

[Kevin Spacey]

The Oswald brothers. Yes. I love them.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, Kennedy assassination fans love it. Oliver Stone was here and he came in his parents. I love that.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I'll bet.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Did you ever work with him?

[Kevin Spacey]

Stone? No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, what a shame when a pairing you guys would be.

[Kevin Spacey]

Are you kidding? Aren't we canceled?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, he's okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's okay.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, you know, again, it's so inconsistent. He loves Putin, which is like the epitome of bad man. I mean, you can quibble about certain people.

[Kevin Spacey]

Have you invited Putin here?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I have.

[Kevin Spacey]

Have you?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And look, I didn't think Mike Pence would ever do my show. He did it. Mike Pence. Mike Pence came out to do the evil Bill Maher show, so.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, that sounds.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't put anything past anybody. It's always shifting. Trump changed the rules of what we expect from a president, what a president can do, you know, but don't you think that's.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's part of the reason that he won?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Spacey]

People are like, he can do anything. He Wants. I want to be with that guy.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And there is just a. It's amazing. He's at the same time the most full of shit person and also the most authentic. I mean, again, to say to somebody, you're a terrible person, say what you want. It's pretty authentic.

[Kevin Spacey]

You've said it to me three times tonight and I don't know what the fuck I did.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, I mean, that's pretty. That's pretty. So, you know, I mean, he is who he is. And what.

[Kevin Spacey]

What are you doing for July 4th, by the way? You get some.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't know. I'm going to Washington next week. I'm getting this Mark Twain.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, yes, that's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

So congratulations. But again, the anxiety of whether they're going to cancel it or whatever.

[Kevin Spacey]

And. But it's at the Kennedy Center.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes. And then they no longer. Yes. And I don't know if that's going to rile them up. You know, it's. It's like there's this. This tiger that's sleeping.

[Kevin Spacey]

But how would you feel if he suddenly decided at the end of the day to come?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That could happen, too.

[Kevin Spacey]

That could.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Seriously. Yeah, that could happen. Yeah. Would that make you feel awesome? What an ending.

[Announcer]

Would that.

[Kevin Spacey]

And by the way, would that change your acceptance speech?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Would that.

[Kevin Spacey]

Would you.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No. No. It's not all about him.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, that's your first mistake.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That was a perfect smash cut. It's not all about it. One time, you know. Classic.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, the classic alligator, whatever that place is in Florida.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

The guy comes over to you and you spit because that's all you have because you're tied up. Because that's going to make things better.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

When you're.

[Kevin Spacey]

When you're kid. It's not about Hill.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What about a comedy? That's what you should do.

[Kevin Spacey]

Are you kidding? Don't you. I did. I did Horrible Bosses. I did Horrible Bosses too. I had such a great time.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, American Beauty.

[Kevin Spacey]

American Beauty is very funny. A lot of it's very funny.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, it's all funny.

[Kevin Spacey]

A lot of it. Well, maybe the ending isn't funny.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't remember the ending.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, of course, because you were asleep watching porn in the hotel.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, it's. I love that movie. It's a great movie. I seen it more than once, but it was. Yeah, that's when I could. Oh, that's a good idea. Because it's been long enough. I mean, I certainly remember the performance, which I remember at the time, and imagine I would still Believe was very much like and deserved to be compared to Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate. Like, there's no jokes in either movie. No jokes. That's right. And yet it. It's very funny.

[Kevin Spacey]

Very funny.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And to pull that off, you know,

[Kevin Spacey]

well, hey, we had a great script. B. Sam Mendes was a great director. I knew him from theater, and it was his first film. And it's very funny because, just going back to Jack Lemon for a second, Sam said to me, he brought the best of theater to that experience. We. We rehearsed it, like, for two weeks before we started shooting. And it's about the third day of rehearsal, and Jackson, Sam said to me, when was the last time you watched the Apartment? I was like, well, I've seen the Apartment many times, but I don't remember the last time I watched it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I just watched it.

[Kevin Spacey]

He said, watch it tonight and then let you and I talk tomorrow morning.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

So that night I watched the Apartment again. Jack Lemmon, one of the great movies ever. Shirley MacLaine, Shirley McLean, Fred McMurray. And then I met with Sam the next morning, and he said, hey, the great thing about Lemon's performance in that film is that no matter what comes at him, no matter what happens, and a lot does, we never see him change. We only see him evolve. And that's what I need you to do as Lester. We don't want to ever see Lester change. We just want to see him evolve.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's a good thing.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's a great piece of direction.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Good thing I got out of acting. I could never pull that off. I mean, it just wasn't my thing. I did it in the 80s when I was a young comic, but it was.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, you've made movies, though.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I know it. So I'm glad I had one credit less, isn't it? It's a joke on the movies. I did make Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death. I actually made that one and Pizza man and DC Cab. Oh, I had a lot of great movies. But what about the.

[Kevin Spacey]

Kevin. What's his name?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Kevin.

[Kevin Spacey]

What's his name From.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Have you seen my Murder, She Wrote?

[Kevin Spacey]

I have not seen your mother.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

May I send them? Oh, please. I mean, look.

[Kevin Spacey]

And by the way, she didn't do her off camera, did she?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What? She wasn't even there. I'm not with it.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I got it. Apparently, she never did her off camera. Somebody in a wig did her off camera.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

She did, like, 13 of the 22. But now if you. Because I know you're an active. Whatever you may think about Mr. Spacey in his life, his. He's an acting maestro. Weren't you the head of the Old Vic?

[Kevin Spacey]

I was the head of the Old Vic, yes. For 12 years.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, how do you turn that vague idea of change and evolution into, like, what you're actually doing or something?

[Kevin Spacey]

But it's the greatest thing when something. Look, there's a lot of things you can do when you're preparing for a part, whether it's a play or a movie. You can read a lot of stuff. You can, you know, take in a lot of stuff. But it's the things that make it active for you that you can actually play that for me are very exciting. So when a director can say something to me that I can understand that as an idea, and it gives me the energy and the focus to move in that direction. I don't know whether it's going to work or not, but it opens me up to trying something in a way that I've never done it before. I've been so fortunate with the directors I've worked with.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That's why I never progressed as an actor. That's gutsy. I was just not willing to be gutsy like that. I was a comic. It was a whole different thing.

[Kevin Spacey]

But don't you think. I mean, look, I always think the writing of comedy, the figuring out of bits, all that stuff, it's always a risk because you never know whether it's gonna land or not land.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Sweetheart, nothing is worse than the first two years in comedy. Whatever you went through, that's the brutal. You know, Two drunks at 2 in the morning, right? Nobody laughing, nobody encouraging. You poor. You know, just everything bad. Right? And wondering the worst part, wondering if you were good. Oh, Jesus Christ. Am I going to be one of the people who's on. You know, it's like in the Army. Am I going to be the one who gets shot on this charge? You know? Right, right. And, you know, I was there.

[Kevin Spacey]

Was there a. You know, because I've. I've had moments in my experience where some. I gave a performance, something happened on stage, something. Something that gave me confidence that I was actually an actor and I was going to do it.

[Announcer]

Was there.

[Kevin Spacey]

Were there moments where something happened in front of an audience?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I got laughs. What are you talking about? Of course that's what happened.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's what happened.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They started laughing.

[Kevin Spacey]

I was looking for something more profound than just. They started laughing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're more of show business than in it, aren't you? Right. Yeah, they. I mean, I think I was telling somebody this recently. I can remember the date, June 20, 1980, when I did a full, like, 15 minutes. And, like, they laughed from beginning to end. Like, it was just, oh, you did a set and they laughed. It was a Saturday. It was cake. So the audience was.

[Kevin Spacey]

And where was it?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It was Catch a Rising Star. And, I mean, I remember that more than, like, you know, my whatever other great acme of achievement I may have achieved was like, no, that. Because it was sort of like a stamping of your past. Like, oh, okay, I can, like, get on this ship. At least I'll be at the lowest rung, but it'll be on the thing.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well. Well, this is why I disagree with Wanda Sykes. We need more of you, not less.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. Were you there at the Golden.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, I know about that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, that's so funny. So funny that people ask me about that. Like, I thought it was, like, nothing, and then I talked to her after, and it was nothing. And then. But just as when people want to, like, you know, make something, they just do.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They just, you know, it's fun. But, no, if there's a beef, I don't know about it.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And then somebody asked me the other day about what she said on a podcast or. What do you think I said? I hadn't heard. I'm not on really social media.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, there's something.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Are you on social media, Kevin?

[Kevin Spacey]

A tiny bit.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What do you say?

[Kevin Spacey]

Evan does most of it because he's afraid I'm gonna like something I shouldn't like.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But, I mean, when the phone is in your hand.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, I'm not. I'm not. No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Never.

[Kevin Spacey]

Not really. No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I feel like you're. You're a little.

[Kevin Spacey]

But this is what I find crazy. If someone has a problem with you, why don't they pick up a phone and call you and tell you. Why do they wait until they're sitting in front of a journalist and then they turn it into a story? I. I think that if you have a problem with somebody, then you should tell them. You should confront them about it. And not just, who are you talking. I'm just talking about in general. I see a lot of these things where people attack someone in an interview and say something negative about them in an interview that they didn't clearly say to them directly. And that's kind of how I felt about what she did.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I feel like all the rules have just sort of been let to slide. You know, a lot of articles in respectable papers. It's so obvious, like, this is what we want to say. And then. And we call up somebody who he knows agrees with us, and you're like, oh, look at what the experts are doing. That's why he's an expert. Yeah, exactly. That's right. And it's okay, but I always feel like I'm being funneled toward an opinion instead of just given the facts. That's right, ma'. Am. Remember Jack Webb?

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, I've watched a number of Dee's interviews that you've done, and you always take the side of, I want the whole story, not just a piece of the story.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Because I'm Scott Pelly and this is 60 Minutes.

[Kevin Spacey]

60 Minutes.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What'd you think of that? I mean, what did you think of that? What's an interesting question? Scott Pelly, who? You know, the whole story.

[Kevin Spacey]

I. I sort of followed it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay, so Paramount, which owns cbs, got bought by David Ellison. That's right. Son of billionaire Larry Ellison and merged it with a smaller company of his. Okay. You know, he's 40 or something. And they are close to Trump. Not close close. Like they're not maga. I'm not going to fights on the law, I don't think.

[Kevin Spacey]

But what they have done is they've stood up for Israel. They have absolutely hired people who no one else would hire. Johnny Depp, Brett Ratner, the list goes on. They're unafraid, and I have great respect for what they're doing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, great. Yeah, I do, too. I don't know how it'll come out, but in general, I understand people's qualms because the Trump administration, crazy corrupt things with crypto and, like, you know, tariffs. There's always a side deal for the. Did you have no money in SpaceX for the family? It's just, you know, how he does business. You know, I wet my beak. But the other side would say 60 minutes was 2 left to begin with, and this is moving to the center. I know the person in charge is Bari Weiss. I like Barry a lot. I mean, we have a history. I love the Free Press. She's a Jewish lesbian. I don't think she's some sort of radical Trumper, you know? You know, nobody gives somebody a chance. I mean, Scott Pelley to be like this guy, the new guy. And, you know, companies change hands all the time. He comes in, this guy, Nick, and Scott Pelley attacks in the. Hi, how are you meeting? The bagels are in the back. And he's like, you will never be respected here. And he's like, how could you not think you were going to get fired?

[Kevin Spacey]

I mean, look, I can only tell you this, that. The right. If you're going to label people right or left, the right. And very significant figures on the right, like. Like Douglas Murray.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Love him.

[Kevin Spacey]

Incredible man. Who Evan also represents.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Ah, all the troublemakers.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, yeah. People like Douglas and others on the right have been so publicly supportive of me and believe that I was not given due process and have been out there for me and supporting me because

[Comedian/Interviewer]

you're bad and they're bad, fine, if

[Kevin Spacey]

that's what you want to think. But on the left, not a single journalist has stood up and said anything in my favor for nine years.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, I. I have gotten on my own network about Woody Allen, and I don't want to pick on scabs, but, you know, we just disagree. He was. When he was here and.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I watched that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He was very good. He was wonderful. Pretty good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. No, I'm not lofty. There's no loftiness.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay, now do Woody in Bed with Johnny Carson and include. Include a reach around.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, well, what are you gonna do with that golf club? Wait a second.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Hey, How. It's like we're doing improv comedy.

[Kevin Spacey]

And why not?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Were you ever an improv comic? I wasn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

I wasn't really an improv. I mean, I. I did it in class and things like that, but no, I was.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I know.

[Kevin Spacey]

I was just. I was generally doing Katharine Hepburn, Jimmy Stewart in odd situations, like Jimmy Stewart in a laundromat. Running out of coin.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wait, let me get Ed Sullivan to introduce this. Hello.

[Kevin Spacey]

Katharine Hepburn is a very fine, wonderful actor.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Impressionist. He's works all the clubs. Kevin Spacey doing his.

[Kevin Spacey]

Katharine Hepburn. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, that's.

[Kevin Spacey]

Can you imagine if she came here? She'd rearrange the furniture. Let us be the color.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Ah, kids, I'm going to make a list of all the people we've been talking about. You don't know. And then you got to. You got to just give us this. If we're still talking about them, they must have been pretty good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Pretty good.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, it is amazing how ephemeral show business.

[Kevin Spacey]

I want to. I want to just notoriety. Briefly touch on an area that I think you have some very strong opinions about, which is. AI.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yes.

[Kevin Spacey]

Because I'd love to sort of hear what. What your stance is on.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, I mean, you know, obviously, there's great possibilities there. As someone who is 70. I'm counting on them. I Mean, you know, figure this out. Like, where are you, AI? Come on. Cancer. Let's go. Let's go. I thought you were the smartest dude ever. I mean, should I really be giving up all I'm giving up if you can't figure out cancer? When I say figure out, I mean, like going to the doctor and him saying, oh, you have cancer of the. Blah, blah, blah, boom. We know what causes it and we know exactly what to give you.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That's what I mean by figuring out. If you can't do that, then, you

[Kevin Spacey]

know, then all the other shit doesn't.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, the fact that, you know, the. The father of the whole AI industry, Geoffrey Hinton, said he thought there was a 10 to 20% chance that it was an extinction event to move forward. And so did Musk. Musk. For all the things he's done that are a little nutty, he got this right. He said it before it was even on my radar. Way back, like 2014, he was like, I'm very worried about AI and where this is going and how this could. And I see exactly what they're talking about now. I see it when I pull out of my driveway. Because every fucking car does what it wants. Now, my driveway, like yours, and I'm sure everything everybody else's connects to the street. So when I'm at the end of it, I'm at kind of a T. And sometimes, because it's a street, cars are going by, I can see them. I don't need my fucking car. Yes, I know. I see the car right in front of me. Before I had you, I never once plowed right into a car on the street as I was coming out of my driveway. I actively worked to avoid that, but now this fucking thing thinks that I need to be yelled at. If I wanted to be nagged, I'd get married. I say I do it all the time, and I can't turn that off because it's for safety. Right, Safety. And, you know, I see white people, they're not gonna get me, but I see white people go toward the. I want my freedom. You know, I like that guy.

[Kevin Spacey]

I like the guy a lot.

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[Comedian/Interviewer]

I am that guy. At times I think we all are. Sure, we all want our freedom.

[Kevin Spacey]

And do you think there are. I mean, it's very interesting how the film industry talks about AI and there's all these debates and all these questions

[Comedian/Interviewer]

about what will it do?

[Kevin Spacey]

And it. Will it take parts away from actors and will everything get.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's. It's already doing that. You know who I'm Tilly Norwood. Do you know who that. You know who that is?

[Kevin Spacey]

No idea.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

She's the A.I. oh, actress. That. It's quite popular.

[Kevin Spacey]

I mean, and, and how is that?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, I found out she's like 6 million other guys.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, you're kind of used to that, aren't you?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, wait a second. That was a good, not accurate, but a perfect line.

[Kevin Spacey]

Because, see, because it's interesting. People ask questions about, you know, you go to film festival and People ask questions about how I feel about AI and. And I say, well, all I know is that the memories that I have of working with incredible directors and phenomenal actors and screenwriters, moments I've had in rehearsal rooms where something happened that wasn't expected. Someone went in a different direction, and we discovered something. AI can't do any of that. And that's about trust, and that's about working and collaborating with other human beings. And I just don't have any fear about that being replaced. If you have to ask AI every question you need an answer for, that's not the way that creative science happened.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I agree. That's not my fear. Or beef with AI My own personal job. I think I'll be the last man standing against AI My fear is that 97, he'll be.

[Kevin Spacey]

And now we have Mike Pence again, for Christ's sake.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I don't think it'll take that long. But I do think that they will get hold of decision making. I mean, already, right now, in the present, there is a big debate over what Anthropic can do with their latest. Claude. And there are already people saying the head of the company is, to his credit. We are not going to sell you this until we are assured there is a human in the chain of command. And I can see, like everything else in Washington, that maybe they put it in now, maybe they get rid of it later. I mean, they never said there was going to be an income tax, you know, and then it was like, when they started, it was like, well, it'll never be more than 2%. But don't you find it interesting that,

[Kevin Spacey]

for example, someone like Martin Scorsese has just joined the board of an AI company, and he is the person who has fought about film and fought about the industry, and now people have come out against him because he said we should embrace whatever the advances in filmmaking can be.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay, first off, could we just not always have to come out again? Well, I mean, can't we just.

[Kevin Spacey]

Exactly. Yes. That. That you have 100%.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

In my opinion.

[Kevin Spacey]

Absolutely. Yes. I wish we didn't have to do that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

As soon as I saw it, I knew people would come out against. Because you just can't disagree because you

[Kevin Spacey]

know what the journalists do? They so Twitter on fire.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, right.

[Kevin Spacey]

Internet goes crazy and threatening nine people.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly. Guy quoting his mom.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I just. Ridiculous. But no, I saw that and see, that would just make me not want to come out against Martin. It would make me want to talk to him.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Tell Me about. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Has he not earned, through his work as an auteur, the right to be heard out on an issue which is in flux all the time?

[Kevin Spacey]

And by the way, if he's getting paid for it, I have no problem with that.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, if he's saying, I'm worried about AI in this existential way, but for the movies, yes, it can be very good. That's a reasonable position. Because both things can be true.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right. That's right.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's so frustrating.

[Kevin Spacey]

It's this weird thing, the sort of woke world of it all. It reminds me of, I think Sean Penn said it better than anyone could have said it. Certainly better than I could have said it. He says it's gotten to the point now where if you aren't actually a Danish prince, you can't play Hamlet. No, I went, that's really accurate.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right? I mean, and that certainly applies to the gay thing because, you know, this whole idea that you have to be gay to play gay. Do you agree with that? No.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, not only do I agree with it, but I feel for these younger actors and actresses that I see talk about. They're playing a character in a TV series that's quite popular, where they're playing a gay character, and they feel so much pressure about declaring what they are and who they are that people are sort of at 21 years old, before they really know, are feeling all this pressure publicly to come out or not come out. And I think that, you know, coming out is not easy. It was not easy for me, although I was. For many years, people within the gay community made jokes about me as if being famous and coming out was like an easy thing. It was actually not an easy thing, and I resisted it for a long, long time. And for me, I'm sorry that I didn't have that courage earlier in my life.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Forced upon you by the scandal?

[Kevin Spacey]

No, not at all. I was actually ready to commit out for two years before the scandal happened. But I'm just saying, much earlier in my career, because there was so many stories about me, there was lots of talk about that I was gay and I just wasn't out. And rather than the gay community understanding that and, and, and saying to me, we'll be there when you need us. We want you in our community, I always felt that I was being attacked, and I. That always just was very painful for me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

This town is everything its reputation says when they talk about sharks and, I mean, there's some great stuff, but it is also full of a bunch of phonies and backstabbers. And it's just. And the reason, I think, is because everybody wants to be in show business and at the pinnacle of it and a star and everything that they think makes life so great. And sometimes it does. You know, there's no denying there's some excitement there, but. And sometimes it doesn't, but they want it. And so the things that people are willing to do. I mean, there's lots of movies about this. You remember the Oscar from 1960 with. Oh, I forget. I think it was Stephen Boyd.

[Kevin Spacey]

I don't even know this.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No. Yeah, the Oscar. He wants the Oscar so bad, and he's just, like, fucking over everybody.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, really?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And the ending is he's up against. His name is Frank, the character. He fucks up for everybody. And then he says. Thinks he's going to get the Oscar. And the guy's up there reading the thing and he says, and the winner is Frank Sinatra. Sinatra does a cameo. Oh, my God. And that's the beginning.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, my God. No, I don't know this.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, that's so interesting. You should watch that one. It's really. It's a great, like, soap opera kind of, but big budget, like, I don't know that movie. Valley of the Dolls.

[Kevin Spacey]

Who plays the Frank character?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Stephen Boyd.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, Stephen Boyd.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But his character is Frank. And that's just the blow at the end of the movie is.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's hilarious.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

The winner is Frank. And he's. You see him, like,

[Kevin Spacey]

almost getting up. Yeah, yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I. I just rewatched the Nutty professor with Jerry Lewis. Oh, my Lord. What?

[Kevin Spacey]

No, just Lewis. Amazing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

I saw him, I think, at Bally's Park Place in Vegas with Sammy Davis Jr. Wow. They did an evening together.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

They came out together, did a bu. Blah, blah. One of them left. One of them left and they came back together at the end. It was absolutely insane.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, my God, I would have loved to see that Chukunk. Mm. I saw Sammy once in Reno. I was playing Reno. It was probably 1984.

[Kevin Spacey]

Wow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. And Reno is a very small town. I mean, it was like I would hear it on tv, you know, uttered in the same breath when they were doing plugs as Vegas. And he'll be at the Star Lounge in Las Vegas and also Reno and Tahoe. Tahoe was the another. And so, like, I thought. And then you get there and it's like. It was almost like a comedy club. I mean, it was just not a. And I saw Sammy in a. But they all played it Cosby, everybody. Because I guess they were in Vegas. It's like, go up to Reno. It's a drive.

[Kevin Spacey]

I played. I was, I think, the last performer to do a concert at the Stardust in Vegas. In the. In the Wayne Newton showroom in Vegas. Yeah. Because I was doing a tour. I played Bobby Darin in a film. Oh. I did all the tracks.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sang all the stuff.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

And so I went on tour with this band and. And we played the Stardust, and it was incredible. That's sort of that kind of Vegas room that. That really doesn't exist anymore.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, that. I love that movie. What it was. What is the title?

[Kevin Spacey]

Beyond the Sea.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Beyond the Sea. Because that was his big hit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now, sometimes a person really is sort of like, born to play somebody. I mean, you kind of look like him, and

[Kevin Spacey]

it was amazing. First of all, I had Phil Ramone as my record producer.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

He did all the tracks, and he was an incredible man. I had Roger Kellaway, who was one of Bobby Darin's accompanists, took him out on the road. He was my piano player. I put Peter Sincati in the film playing my conductor. It was one of the great experiences. And we did all the tracks at Abbey Road.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You have this whole other life as a musician, right?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I'm doing concerts now.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

See, that must lead to temptation. Groupies, musicians, the road.

[Kevin Spacey]

No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Like I say, probably no.

[Kevin Spacey]

No. I'm at a point now where I'm beyond the sea, putting myself in any kind of situation.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're beyond the sea?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I'm beyond the sea. Ye.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You were beyond the sea when you were born.

[Kevin Spacey]

Wait a second. Hang on a second.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, you know, your body tells you to slow down.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, but.

[Kevin Spacey]

But I feel so energized and excited. I mean, I've been very fortunate. Last year, I. Evan. Produced a film that we did called Roadworthy, that we did with F. Murray Abraham and Billy Zane, and it was a great experience.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And I just see Billy Zane played Marlon Brando.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Because he had to.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, that's pretty good.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, he looked. You know, it's amazing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really. That's good.

[Kevin Spacey]

How much he.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, you got the face.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, here's the point I'm trying to make, Bill. I can't help this, but I've been calling it Club Abandoned. I don't know why. It's just. It's just what I feel. I can't.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow. You really. You got the face. I love that. That's tough. You know who did that better than anybody? Jim Carrey. Oh, my God. He used to do an act at the Comedy Store. Like, I think it was just the faces. He would just turn into someone just turn his face like, I can't do that.

[Kevin Spacey]

He used to. I think maybe his first appearance on Carson, he did Clint Eastwood, but he literally showed you as he like made the, he made himself become Clint Eastwood in front of your eyes. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, I think he's a remarkable person.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He is.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's also grown and changed and. Oh, done some amazing, some amazing stuff. Adult movies, watching him give. He's done a couple of college speeches at commencements that have just been beautiful. Really beautiful about where he is.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, he's a complicated dude. I know that I don't know him well, but, you know, I, I always liked him. You know, we were never like, close close. I don't think he gets close. I mean, he's, you know, he's a bit of a manic depressive.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's better now than he, than he's ever been out with him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He feels that, you know, with other people and yeah, he's not crazy person, but he just knows he can go into dark moods, you know, and who can't? Me, I mean, I would like to think I'm, I'm not in who knows what.

[Kevin Spacey]

You must have dark days in life.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I've had them. They don't happen a lot anymore.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, at this.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, that's because you're high as a kite.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, it's because I'm careful as a catfish. I don't know why.

[Kevin Spacey]

I don't know what is, like, what are you going to say?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm a careful person. I don't do, I don't do stuff that's gonna get me in trouble. Even though my reputation is always being in trouble. Like you're beef with Wanda Sykes. I said nothing, you know, I, but no, I, I just, I'm a very careful person. I, I, I, you know, like.

[Kevin Spacey]

And is that because you're worried about how something might be interpreted or.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I'm worried about pain. Don't want to keep. Stave it off.

[Kevin Spacey]

Stave it off. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, I think I was a nervous child, you know.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, really?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I was the kid who, like, when they came to get me for kindergarten, I didn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

Why do you make it sound like it's Blanche dubois and Streetcar? When they came to get me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Not kindergarten. Sorry. I went to kindergarten. Nursery school.

[Kevin Spacey]

Nursery school.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

There Was something.

[Kevin Spacey]

They came to get you for kindergarten?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They came to get me because one of my first memories of me being on the stairs in our little house. And they came to the door like the half bus or whatever.

[Kevin Spacey]

I've always depended on the kindness of strangers.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Little purple flowers on it like it was. All the other kids, I'm sure, were happy to get into this van with strangers. Nothing weird about that. And I threw it. A tantrum on the stairs about leaving.

[Kevin Spacey]

You did not want to get in that van.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I was like here at home with Mom. I'm into it, you know what? And to the point where they. I guess they must have had some meeting and went like, this kid is going to fuck up nursery school. He really doesn't want to go, let's just skip it. And they did.

[Kevin Spacey]

And they did.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And that's why I'm so ignorant. If I only could have. He could have gotten that nursery school.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's incredible.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what brought that up.

[Kevin Spacey]

You know, I grew up in the Valley. I'm a. I'm a Valley kid.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right. Thousand Oaks and then the Valley.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I've. Whenever I read about it, like, I think Red Easton Ellis as a kid who grew up in the valley of a red hill.

[Kevin Spacey]

Robert Redford went to Van Nuys High School.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. That's a little before even our time.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Didn't we just lose him?

[Kevin Spacey]

We did just lose him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow. What a lion he was.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's incredible. I. I've been going through my archives. I sort of. I've kept everything. So I'm having this experience where I'm. I'm doing what would normally happen when you die, which is your relatives go through your stuff. But I've actually been going through it myself, which has been really moving and incredible. And because I kept everything. And I found about three months ago a letter that I got. It probably was probably 1991 or two. I had gone into audition for Quiz show, which is a film that Ralph Fiennes did.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Robert Redford directed. Directed about.

[Kevin Spacey]

About a quiz show that was famous scandal. Famous scandal.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Huge scandal. Huge scandal in the year 1959.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

And I'd gone and auditioned for a part in the movie and I didn't get it. But three weeks later I get this letter from Robert Redford thanking me for coming in to audition, telling me how great I was, but that he was going to go in a different direction. And he just wanted to Wish me well with my career. I was like, what fucking director writes an actor? He doesn't cast?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And who's the guy in your other story about when you were. Who you just told me was like, when you were 13.

[Kevin Spacey]

Lemon. Lemon.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

So now we have Jack Lemmon doing it.

[Kevin Spacey]

Robert Redford.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Robert Redver, yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, you have none of these stories.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Nobody ever told me.

[Kevin Spacey]

Why don't you make up a story? Make up a story that Carson came one night and saw you. Did you do Carson?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But he didn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

All right, well, somebody who you could.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I did Carson 31 times. 31 times? Yeah. I did Carson a lot from 1982 to, like, he left in 92. And then I did it a zillion times with Jay.

[Kevin Spacey]

With Jay? Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, Jay's my boy. Yeah. One of the few people I look up.

[Kevin Spacey]

Jay was always. He was a guy. I found. Actually, one of the things. One of the things I found from Jay was a two telegrams I found recently. She sent me a telegram saying how happy he was that the beyond the Sea got great reviews. He was looking forward to seeing. It was just a telegram. He sent me a telegram. A telegram.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What year is this? 1920. A telegram?

[Kevin Spacey]

Telegrams. I have lots of telegrams from when I did theater. So people would send telegrams to the theater.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wait, what year are we talking about?

[Kevin Spacey]

Probably was. Well, this would have been 2003, or people were selling.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Sending telegrams.

[Kevin Spacey]

They still send telegrams opening nights. You send telegrams.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay, I'm ignorant. I didn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm gonna send you a telegram.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's gonna say, how would you even get it?

[Kevin Spacey]

Go fuck yourself.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Does he mean like a kid comes wearing the cap like a bellboy telegram?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, exactly. You're gonna get that. Telegram for Mr. Mayor.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Telegram for Johnny Asshole. Is there a Johnny Asshole?

[Kevin Spacey]

But here's the other telegram I found from Jay Leno. He wrote me this incredibly beautiful telegram when my mother passed away. Cause he knew how much my mother meant to me. And I thought that was really sweet of you.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're talking about Leno.

[Kevin Spacey]

Leno.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I know. I can't. You can't be in a good war with Jay Leno. He's just always going to win.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, he's always.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He just like. He doesn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

He's like. I mean, he'd come around. He'd come. They brought the drinks trailer, you know, the trolley into your room when you were going to the show.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

And then he come see. What should we talk about tonight? What do you want to talk about. You want to talk about your movie?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You want?

[Kevin Spacey]

Hey, you want. And it was like, it was like so different from Carson because you didn't see Carson. You never saw Letterman before he went on.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Nobody ever sees me. I don't know how anybody can do that. You want to save that energy for. For when you walk out.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's no.

[Kevin Spacey]

Lena loved to come and sing before,

[Comedian/Interviewer]

but everybody has their own. What do you want to talk about?

[Kevin Spacey]

You want to talk. It's true. Absolutely true.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You play with toy train. Is it true that you met Jack

[Kevin Spacey]

Len when you were like four? What? Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But, you know, as I was saying an hour ago or something when I had to do that appreciation of Carson and time, I really was glad I read it back recently for some reason that I did did take the moment to give Leno his props that you just, you know, Johnny would not survive right now. What? You can't. Unless he had changed a lot. And that's not who he was. He was gracious. He was not loud. It wasn't like screaming to get more attention. The other guy, he wasn't.

[Kevin Spacey]

He wasn't partisan and he wasn't political.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He was political. Just not partisan.

[Kevin Spacey]

Just not partisan. That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, and neither was Jay. They knew how to do that where they didn't like write off half the country.

[Kevin Spacey]

Interesting. You may disagree or agree with this, but here's something I felt watching and learning as I did, as I used to go to the Tonight show when I was 16, 17 years old. I still have ticket, my tickets stubs from when I went to the Tonight.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really? Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

And I think over a period of time I began to, to realize the difference between Johnny Carson and any other host, maybe Letterman. But Johnny knew he was the host and that was the role he played. I always felt Leno played the audience. Wow. I can't believe I'm here with you. That's incredible.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What am I doing?

[Kevin Spacey]

It's amazing. Sitting next to you is such a great. He always played the audience like, I'm one of you. But Johnny played the host.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Look, Jay's just a stand up comedy machine. He just is. So like, you can't blame him for really wanting to just do an hour of stand up because.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, not at all. I'm saying there's a difference between recognizing why I think Johnny survived as long as he survived.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes. But also, Jay, they twice fired him for the crime of being number one. And there was a. He kept it on. Yes.

[Kevin Spacey]

I was the second person to be fired for being number one. Yeah, sure. Okay, go ahead.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, 22 years is an incredible run. And, you know, he found a way to be himself in an interview. Part of it when. And you know, what Jay really loves is to sit around with other comics and write jokes and do jokes, and it's just. And that's why he's such an amazing guy. You know, during the strike, like, 20 years ago strike, like, we were allowed to write our own stuff or something, and we just didn't have the right. I didn't notice any difference in the monologue. He wrote the whole thing himself. He's that kind of a savant.

[Kevin Spacey]

Did you also. Did you ever find the. I always found this sort of just a funny phenomenon with. With comedians that you could sit around with a group of comedians in a bar or club or whatever, and somebody would be telling their jokes, you know, doing their bits. You know, I got a bit.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I got.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, and they do the bit.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That's not what we sound like.

[Kevin Spacey]

And you do the. And you do the bit, and people go like this. Yeah, that's funny. That'll work. They wouldn't laugh.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

There is some.

[Kevin Spacey]

There would be a little bit. Yes. Yeah, that's. That's the word.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, that's funny.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's not funny.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay. But it's. It's a. It's a cliche. Like, all supermodels are anorexic. Know, you. You know, it's. There's. There's some of that. And not the people I chose to hang out with because they're all generous.

[Kevin Spacey]

But who. So. So when you were starting out and all that, who were like. Was there a group of comedians? You were.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. You wouldn't know most of them, but you would know Jerry Seinfeld. He was one of them.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Larry David was a little before me. And on a different club, Robert Klein. No, that was a different generation. That was the one Jerry and I had.

[Kevin Spacey]

And all of us, we just lost to Tom Dreeson, looked up to.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I love Tom, but I. We did not see Tom, and God bless him and Robert Klein in the same rank. Robert Klein was, I would say more than anyone the one Comedians in my, like, graduating class looked up to. Him and Carlin were the two who were, like, hit, you know, the post Alan King era. Even though Alan King was kind of hip, but it was still a little borscht belty.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right, right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, sure. But did you ever have those nights where, like, you went and saw somebody get up on stage and you were like, holy fuck, who is that?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, I've seen guys have good sets. Yes. And, I mean, I'm sure if you ran the names by me, I could think of that. But. But, I mean, Richard Belzer.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, wow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Who never became, like, famous that much as a standup comic.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's really much more famous than Law and Order.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes, it's true. Only because he was, like, the world's worst worker. He was so amazingly talented and funny, but he would never write anything down. Oh, well, you know, he just got stoned when on stage. And when he was, like, on fire at Catch a Rising Star, that was. Was the best I've ever seen.

[Kevin Spacey]

You knew Jay Moore?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Who?

[Kevin Spacey]

Jay Moore.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I know Jay. I don't think we were the same. He was not in New York when I was in New York.

[Kevin Spacey]

Jay took me one night. We were. We were at the. I think we were at the Comedy Store watching some comedies. And then he said, should I call Hackett? I said, what? He Should I call Hackett? I said, buddy Hackett? He said, yeah, I know Buddy Hackett.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really?

[Kevin Spacey]

I said, it's one in the morning. Goes, well, he's either up or he's not. So he calls Buddy Hackett, and Buddy Hackett invites us to come to his house in Beverly Hills.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Kevin Spacey]

And I will never forget this evening

[Comedian/Interviewer]

at one in the morning.

[Kevin Spacey]

At one in the morning.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

Buddy Hackett answers the door and his wife. Who were you with? I was with Jay Moore.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, Jay Moore. Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

He answers the door. He answers the door in his white.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't know why I keep forgetting things.

[Kevin Spacey]

Bathrobe. Because I can't imagine why. He answers the door in his white bathrobe. And we come into his house, and Bunny Haggit's literally, hey, you want some cheese? You gotta cut it yourself. Cause my wife hates it when I cut the cheese. And literally would come in and come out and come in and come out and do jokes. And it was incredible. Incredible.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That generation, like, I saw Buddy Hackett. This is again, right around that time when I was opening for acts in Vegas, in Reno, and I was Atlantic City, and I was opening for, I think, a singer named Denise Williams, who had a big hit called let's Hear it for the Boy. And no other music anyone knew, so she really had to save it for the end anyway. And then, you know, like, comics in town, you know, you could, like, talk your way into getting to see the other comic, you know, professional courtesy. And me and two other guys did, and we went to playing the Trump Tower. Yes, and he just told a bunch of old jokes.

[Kevin Spacey]

Wow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That was his act. And then we were allowed to go backstage to where the great man was holding court in his dressing room. And he was such a dick in every possible way. I'm sorry. He was funny. I used to like him on the Tonight Show. When he was on the Tonight Show, Johnny would go, eh, well my buddy's on no notes. No notes. We just, we just go, you know. That was his ultimate compliment. No pre interview. Yeah, sure, no notes, just. But yeah, we'll do what he does. He was, he was just every bad thing you could do, like holding court. And if someone like dared to like cough or something, be like, I'm talking. Excuse me, but do you want, you know, just total like hit on a bad looking middle aged woman, like which was sad. And then toddled off, off like scarfing all the liquor. He must every night from the. He could like take the actual liquor and it was a box full of food and liquor that was in the dressing room that he went out to his limo which was 10ft away. Oh my God. But I loved him.

[Kevin Spacey]

What a legend.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean he's a legend.

[Kevin Spacey]

Come on.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm sorry, that's my memory. Maybe he was great all the other days of his life. That's very positive. I absolutely think that's possible. I caught him on a bad night, but that's what I saw.

[Kevin Spacey]

But did you ever sit down with, you know, somebody who was legendary, who you really felt a connection with?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Alan King, same era I was in. Also Atlantic City. Very Bush belt song.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

In the audience I was very impressed as a 28 year old comic. He was such a master. And it was not unhindered hip. Right. You know, I mean it wasn't like outrageous, it wasn't Carlin, but it was things like you could look up the year. Cuz I remember the joke he said, people tell me I'm middle aged. I'm 58. Yeah. If I live to 116. You know it's kind of still works. It's kind of basic, but it's so true that you just. And get a great delivery. And then he, he stayed up and just drank us under the table. At his age, me and Dennis Wolfberg I think was the other comic, God rest his soul. And we were just drinking, drinking, drinking at the bar, you know, for hours is my recollection.

[Kevin Spacey]

I have to share with you something I've never said publicly. Uh oh, but I think you'll appreciate it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm straight,

[Kevin Spacey]

So I I did the Carson Show, 1990, because I'd done a television movie about Jim and Tammy Baker with Bernadette Peters, and I played Jim Baker. So Carson, who had such a field day, not Tammy, strangely enough, but Carson, had such a field day with the Bakers, wanted to have the actor who played Jim Baker on the show. So I got booked on the Tonight Show.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh.

[Kevin Spacey]

But by the time I got on the show, there had been an elderly woman who ran a, you know, Midwest newspaper called the Longtown News or something, Robert Klein, and then me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh.

[Kevin Spacey]

And by the time I got on the show, I had a minute and a half with a clip, and they were going to let me. And Carson was going to let me do my impression of him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh.

[Kevin Spacey]

Which he didn't normally like, but he'd seen these tapes of me doing him, and he was gonna let me do the bit, but we didn't get to it. And literally the reason it was worth doing was because of what happened in the commercial break. So he said, we'll be right back. And when we came back, it was good night. Right? So I'd done the clip, talked about the movie. That was it. He said, we'll be right back. And then when they came back after the commercial, the show was over, and he leaned over to me quietly, he said, michelle. And he said, I'm really sorry we didn't get to the bit. I was looking forward to it, but I couldn't get the old woman to shut the fuck up. And Robert Klein decides to be funny for the first time in six years. Who knew?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

That is so awesome.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, my God. That was the greatest line ever.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

All right, then I'm gonna tell you my Carson story. Even though I've told it here before, I'll make it quick. His last time. Last time, I did it in 92, right before Jay was about to take over. And he's in his parking lot lot, and I'm walking out, and his car won't start.

[Kevin Spacey]

The Mercedes?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, this was a Corvette, I think he had. This is 1992. And, you know Jay, the famous car guy? And I said to him, boy, I bet you Jay Leno would know what to do. He knows everything about cars. And Johnny looked up ice cold and went, yeah, we'll. We'll find out how much he knows about television.

[Kevin Spacey]

Just. Wow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Cold. That's fantastic. No, yours is fantastic, too. I love. First time in six years. That's just.

[Kevin Spacey]

It was hilarious. It was hilarious.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I remember. I mean, I guess we're telling tales out of school we might as well. I remember him ragging on Bob Hope. I didn't talk to him a lot, but I did see him, the young comic waiting in the wings. And he comes down before he went to the monologue. He was not unamenable to saying hello and, you know, kind of kibitzing for a minute before we went on. I remember once, and it was always bitching. One time he was bitching, bitching about Ed not getting a new warmup act, like, get a new joke, for God's sakes. I think he thought there was a receptive ear in a young comic. Like, for Christ's sake. I heard the same. And then the other time was

[Announcer]

what

[Comedian/Interviewer]

we were just talking about, that there was. Oh, Bob Hope.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He, Bob, I must have prompted him because I don't think he would have just volunteered it. Who knows? He was kind of a surly guy. But I, I, Bob Hope was on and I must, must have said, like, you know, boy, exciting, huh? Bob Hope, he went off on. What a dick. But do you think Buddy Hackinson did. And he just did not like that Bob Hope was this 800 pound gorilla. NBC. That's right. And that even Johnny Carson could be kind of bullied a little by. And he was a terrible guest.

[Kevin Spacey]

I think he was a terrible guest. I think that everything had to be scripted and he didn't like Bob Hope for lots of reasons. But, yeah, I've understood because, you know, I don't know if, you know, I narrated the documentary about Johnny Carson on pbs. I begged him, pursued, because I had such admiration for him and I pursued it. And I think, yeah, Hope was not someone he was.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, Bob Hope has a terrible reputation. Jack Warner has. I mean, people were huge bricks.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, if you had been around

[Kevin Spacey]

100 years ago, I would have fit right in there.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You are. No, but I mean, nobody would. It's the things that. Did you see the Marilyn movie that Anna De Armas did?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, yes.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Disturbing.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I, I mean, we can't, we don't know what it was like when she was in bed with Jack Kennedy.

[Kevin Spacey]

No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But the portrayal in the movie was like, I would have rather seen like a nuclear war movie.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

These are not boring times we live in. I mean, things are things. It's funny, we do have this big July 4th birthday coming up. And so, you know, I was asking the troops today, like, we got it last because then we're off for a month. So like next week, a week from Friday is the, like the last thing we Do.

[Kevin Spacey]

And what do you do over the summer? Where do you go? Do you go anywhere? Do you.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't go many places. I mean.

[Kevin Spacey]

No.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I spent 40 years, like, going every other weekend, you know, I mean, I did it in the last 25 years, as easy as you could with a plane and, you know, only gone for two days at a time. Very easy. But still, I stopped last year. It's just. It's a pleasure to wake up in my own bed every day.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You know, I mean, I miss.

[Kevin Spacey]

And do you still go out and do occasional.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, you can't do it occasionally.

[Kevin Spacey]

You can't?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No. You have to be in practice.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, I.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's like playing the.

[Kevin Spacey]

Cause you can't just go out. No. I'm going to try this one night.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I mean, you got to know it's going to. You'll suck.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And I won't do that. I mean, comics have tried to do that. Sure. Many times. Sometimes they get famous and they think, oh, now I don't really have to. I just go back to it. My name will sell tickets. It will sell tickets, and then the ticket holders will be disappointing.

[Kevin Spacey]

When you get to 80, you can do it like Bob Newhart. You show up and you show clips and, you know, you talk about the career you've had.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Please just shoot me on the front lawn if that. Just please somebody snipe me out. Out. Send a drone if that's what I'm doing. You know, that's.

[Kevin Spacey]

Send a drone.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, something. You know, that's the Bob Hope line that he famously said about, like, Bob, why do you go on the road 250 days out of the year? And he said something like, because the gardeners don't applaud, you know. Right, right. And. And he did. I think he. To the. And now, I don't know if this is lore, but they said he every night got a hook.

[Kevin Spacey]

Right. Oh, really?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, look, this is just scuttlebutt. It could not be true. Very easily not preventing me from repeating. Doesn't ring untrue. I mean, he was kind of known to be, you know. Yeah. I don't know if. And Dolores, it was just, you know, I don't want to get into the Hope's marriage.

[Kevin Spacey]

I really don't. I mean, yeah, you know, we've. We've gone really downhill when that's. That's the person we can say the shittiest stuff about is Bob Hope.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It'd be funny if this was like a horror movie and we have this Discussion. And then you go off stage and you. You stumble upon some papers and you see, like everything I said was script.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, that's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Everything was scripted. Look at this. If he was planning on talking about.

[Kevin Spacey]

He knew he was gonna ask about Bob Hope. How did he know that?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But, you know, I remember when he was. I was driving back from college and they were having like, his. I think it was his 75th birthday.

[Kevin Spacey]

Huh.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And they made a very big deal of it.

[Kevin Spacey]

An NBC special he had.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He got like four specials a year.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure, exactly. And.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And he would go on Johnny to plug every one. And that's what Johnny didn't like. We're not asking. Bob is coming on Thursday.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And he's the lead guest. That's right. I told this story too, but it's just too funny. You'll love it. I was on with Bob that night. Must have been that night. So I'm on the couch and Johnny just is like, oh, God, I don't know what to do with this guy. He's a terrible talker, even though he's known to be this genius comic. But I hate talking to him. So we just got a bunch of stills, so. Oh, I'll show the stills. And then Bob will go, comment. And one was Bob, and he dresses the Pope with the big pope hat. And Bob's comment was, yeah, there, I'm the Pope.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That was it.

[Kevin Spacey]

That was his old comment. Yeah, there, I'm the Pope.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

[Kevin Spacey]

Christ.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

Wow. Wow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, the old days, huh? Were like, we could do the Sunshine Boys. Wasn't that Jack Lemmon?

[Kevin Spacey]

No, Lemmon didn't do the Sunshine Boys. No. You know, the Sunshine Boys was. Dick Van Dyke did it with his brother and George Burns did the Sunshine Boys.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, that's what I mean about, like, hurry up and playing these late Middle Ages.

[Kevin Spacey]

You want me to do the Sunshine Boys? Is that what I'm saying? Not yet. Oh, not yet.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Saying you don't have to do that yet.

[Kevin Spacey]

Okay.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

All right, all right. But unless AI is a miracle worker in 10 years, you might have to.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, I got AI. I got a bunch of projects in the future that I'm very excited about. I got a one man new one man show. I played Clarence Darrow, which I'm gonna try to do again because I've learned so much now about actually being in court that playing Clarence Darrow is gonna take on a whole new aspect.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, court itself seems like quite a punishment just because it's such an unpleasant, stressful place to be.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, it's also.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You learn a lot.

[Kevin Spacey]

I mean, look, Evan and I both. I think Evan deserves a law degree now because he's been so involved in all the cases that we've done and been such an influence on.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Evan is your lover?

[Kevin Spacey]

Evan is my partner, but my business partner. Not my partner.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Partner. My business partner.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, I know, I understand. But look, we've learned a lot about the sort of legal system. And so I'd like to do the Clarence Darrow again. But I'm gonna do a one man show about who I think is one of the great filmmakers ever. Whom a lot of people don't know, which shocks me. Me, but it's Preston Sturges.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh.

[Kevin Spacey]

Who I adore and who I want to like.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What are his movies? I could pick them out.

[Kevin Spacey]

Lady Eve, the Palm Beach Story.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Palm Beach Story. Very favorite.

[Kevin Spacey]

Hail the Hot Conquering hero.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Spacey]

He was an incredible screwball.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

30s.

[Kevin Spacey]

Screwball. 30. Yeah. 30s comedies. And, and incredible.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But who else did you just say before that? Oh, Clarence Darrow.

[Kevin Spacey]

Clarence Darrow.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Let's tell the kids. Why he's like a big.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, Clarence Darrow's most famous case was the Scopes Monkey trial.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

Which has been turned into a movie many times called Inherit the Wind. It's also a play which I have done, but he had a lot of Leopold. And Loeb was another huge case of his. Chicago.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But Inherit the Wind's a great play. Inherit the Wind is a great play and a great movie with Frederick March in space. Spencer Tracy.

[Kevin Spacey]

Orson Welles played him. Henry Fonda has played him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

Spencer Tracy did that movie.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, yeah. A lot of different actors have played that same film.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, it was 100 years ago and it was a trial. Called it the Monkey Trial. Because in Tennessee, I think it was

[Kevin Spacey]

in this teacher was trying to teach.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Teach evolution.

[Kevin Spacey]

Evolution. And you know, and Tennessee, all you could teach was the Bible.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you know, for people who think, you know, we just never get better. We, we, we do get better. They only do that in Texas now. No, I mean, look, people are. Baptists are going to baptize. They're just gonna, you know, I mean, you can say, oh, you know, criticize this culture. This culture. But what about the Baptists who women say their wives should submit. That's in Baptist thing. And women will kind of say, well, it doesn't mean get raped. But you know, it's just not. It's certainly not now woman of the year stuff. Right. It's not Glorious night. I'm blessed.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But, you know, I mean, sex is complicated, you know? I mean, people like to submit sometimes. Look who I'm talking to. Hey, it's Pride Month.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, it is Pride Month.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What do you do for Pride Month?

[Kevin Spacey]

I just swish around the house,

[Comedian/Interviewer]

So. Yeah. Have you ever been the, like, you know, float? You know, the leader, the queen of the float?

[Kevin Spacey]

Is that what you're saying? What are you talking about? Hang on a second. Is that the float queen in a parade?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

They have, like, a king of the parade.

[Kevin Spacey]

They have not made me.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I did it once.

[Kevin Spacey]

They have not made me. You were the king of the gay parade?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Really? No. The. No. The New Orleans. No.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, no gays in New Orleans?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Is that what you're saying? No, no, it was. It was the Mardi Gras.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I was, like, always in pain of

[Kevin Spacey]

the kindness of strangers. Yes.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yes. So those plays hold up, don't they? Of course. Like. Like Streetcar and.

[Kevin Spacey]

Of course they do, yeah.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, you say of course, but, like, I do from time to time go back and watch, like, something or somebody will recommend an old movie and. And the really great ones do. The Apartment, I think, does. Although there are parts of it that, you know, I mean, everything is going to look weird 50, 70 years past.

[Kevin Spacey]

Parts of the Apartment look weird to

[Comedian/Interviewer]

you the way Fred McMurray acts.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah, he's a heel. Exactly.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But it's just not the way you'd play a heel today. It's of the era.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, really?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

I think he's very familiar today, actually,

[Comedian/Interviewer]

in general, but not, like, in the specific choices and things that make it dated, which is okay. We understand. It's happening in 1950. It's like, here, honey. And gives her $20. It's like, okay, what is this for parking? No, this is for sex. It's 1950. That's right. 60. Yeah, okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

That's right.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, shit like that.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure, that's fine.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's fine.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm just saying the movies as a whole. Stand up.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm not arguing with.

[Kevin Spacey]

No, you are arguing with me. What are you talking about?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm saying that one stands up, but there are things in it that are dated.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Okay. Okay.

[Kevin Spacey]

But that's fine.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Why are we arguing?

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm not arguing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What, are we married? Jesus Christ. We're not.

[Kevin Spacey]

There's things that you did last week in this that are dated already.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I guess so. But, like, let's argue.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

We don't. We agree on this. Okay, but some stuff does Not.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, that's true.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay. But also some stuff Sunset Boulevard does. Absolutely, Hugely.

[Kevin Spacey]

Absolutely. Some Like It Hot does.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. Yes, it does. It does.

[Kevin Spacey]

Even though you don't like guys in dresses.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well. Oh, really?

[Kevin Spacey]

That sounds like a little gay to me. We're back to a little gay.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, you know, certainly the Romans did not, or the Greeks treat homosexuality as a distinctive thing the way we do. I mean, Mark Antony had many lovers. Some were boys, some were women, and it was more who's cute.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure. And there was a sheep, as well, you may not be aware of. Well, maybe there was a famous Plato sheep.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you think of Rome as a. And it was a very macho society. I mean, I took Latin in college at Cornell, and it is not a bar.

[Kevin Spacey]

Did they usually get you laid when you said I took Latin?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah, I took it and I didn't do anything with it. I mean, for like a semester, like.

[Kevin Spacey]

But sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But I do remember that, like, unlike the Romance languages, Italian, certainly English and even German, for sake. It was just like. There's no floweriness in it. Every sentence is like, citizen, move that rock on the road. It's all very practical. And they're builders, you know, that's what they did. There were builders, conquerors. They didn't fuck around when they conquered you.

[Kevin Spacey]

Sure.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I mean, it was not a gay society, you know, by our standards. And yet it was. That was just a thing. And that just shows that what we think of as what our culture is. It's not completely inevitable.

[Kevin Spacey]

What is not completely inevitable?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

How a society looks at homosexuality. Like, you can either look at it as. As we do, as like a distinctive thing, or like the Romans, like, we. We don't. What do you mean? Gay. Right, Right.

[Kevin Spacey]

They didn't label it.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, they crossed over, like, just much more fluidly. And I. I mean. I mean, what. I don't know how I was.

[Kevin Spacey]

It's just the. You using the term fluid is at this. At this particular time in our history is amusing.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're right. You got me there. But damn. Damn, these clove cigarettes, they just make you forget. Well, what's next for Kevin? See what.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, a. I. I'm doing concerts as. As I mentioned. We've got a bunch of concerts that we're doing this year. We got one in Rome that I'm very excited about.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And you're a pianist. Pianist? What? No, no. You're not a pianist.

[Kevin Spacey]

I've been accused of being a pianist, but actually I'm a singer.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I know that.

[Kevin Spacey]

So I have a Piano player.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, and I thought you play piano too.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, I can play a little bit, but I'm. I'm not a piano player. So I. I do the American Songbook. I. I do. Wow. An hour and a half show in which I tell a lot of stories as well.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

What are some of the numbers? I bet I'd like this.

[Kevin Spacey]

Oh, Fly Me to the Moon. And.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, I know.

[Kevin Spacey]

I mean, all. All the Sinatra stuff, you know, that you love and I love and. But I also do some surprising things. A great gospel version of Bridge Over Troubled Water and.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Kevin Spacey]

Some.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Some things over Troubled Water.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I'm also starting a film, a new film I'm doing that I'll shoot in Italy about the Holocaust, which is

[Comedian/Interviewer]

a comedy,

[Kevin Spacey]

which is a very complicated story. But. But one.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm. Remember the Day the Clown cried?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, there you go. And. And so, yeah, there's a lot of work coming up and I'm. I couldn't be happier to be going to work. And. And. And I feel very blessed every day.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, I hope. Hope we have you put in all this work. We get to see this stuff.

[Kevin Spacey]

Absolutely.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You think we will?

[Kevin Spacey]

I do think we will. Okay. I absolutely do think we will.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, of course, I have to leave the final verdict to the people.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

But, you know, I think I was a fair interlocutor.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm sorry?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I think I was a fair interlocutor.

[Kevin Spacey]

And you. Are you sure you're pronouncing that correctly?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I am not.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Just.

[Kevin Spacey]

Just making sure. Interlocutor.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Hey, ha.

[Kevin Spacey]

Lady.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Hang her and you'll go home now. You just.

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, I'm actually in California for just a few days.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, you don't live here anymore?

[Kevin Spacey]

I don't live here anymore, but I haven't lived here for a long time. But the reason I'm very happy about A, being here and B, that I've been coming to California, is that tomorrow I get the chance to do something I love doing more than I can express, which is to go see Dick Van Dyke.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh, you're going to see Dick Van Dyke.

[Kevin Spacey]

I see Dick in the afternoon. Who's become a great friend and an amazing man. 100 years old.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Now, can I make one suggestion?

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, please.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Do it in the morning. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying.

[Kevin Spacey]

Jesus. But then after I see Dick, who's a hundred. Terrible job, I'm going to see my drama teacher from chatsworth high school, Mr. Corelli. I still call him Mr. Corelli, and he's 96 years old. And I saw him a year and a half ago. So when I come to town, I try to go visit.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

When do you think the secret is to making it that long?

[Kevin Spacey]

Well, in both their cases, they love life. I mean, Dick Van Dyke gets up every day and he embraces life and he makes jokes and he makes inappropriate jokes and he's funny as hell and he loves to sing. In fact, what he loves what I love doing with him, he loves for me to come over and, and interview him as Johnny Carson. So we do a Tonight show together and then we sing together. And then he takes me out and a couple things he insists on, on doing. He wants to take me to the gym he goes to three times a week. So we go see the gym he's at. Then we take a walk along the Malibu pier and just being ridiculous like, well, people are stopping him and saying most beautiful things to him. And then we go and buy carrots and we throw carrots at the horses.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I don't think he should go to the gym.

[Kevin Spacey]

He goes to the gym three times a week.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I know, but tell him he should work out at home.

[Kevin Spacey]

Why?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm just saying at 100, just because

[Kevin Spacey]

you don't want to go out in the world. Dick Van Dyke loves going to his gym.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I'm just trying to help him.

[Kevin Spacey]

What?

[Comedian/Interviewer]

He's in great shape, okay? 100 year old immune system. I wouldn't just purposely put it in a place that's known to have a lot of fucking germs. I mean, there's just a lot of grody people sweating and on equipment and

[Kevin Spacey]

he doesn't use the sauna, he just does the equipment.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're in the sauna.

[Kevin Spacey]

I'm in the sauna dropping my towel. Exactly.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

No, I, I hope you're not mad at me for making jokes, but not in the least. I feel like it's, it was part of.

[Kevin Spacey]

Not in the least.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

It's, it's part of your penance.

[Kevin Spacey]

Yes, sure, I accept.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

And it's. The verdict is for the people. But, but it must be said that you, you. A lot of penance has been paid. Like there was a lot. I'm sure there's just been a lot of bad days and bad nights.

[Kevin Spacey]

But with penance comes also enormous. I'm enormously grateful. And I've got Evan Lowenstein in my life, who is the most curious man I've ever known. And the guy who, by the way, he spends so much time challenging opinions and challenging ideas is, and he challenges me all the time. More than anyone. And I'm enormously grateful to have him in my life.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

You're in love with this guy? Can't you see?

[Kevin Spacey]

Without question I love him.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Oh. But not hitting each other.

[Kevin Spacey]

But not in that way. Yeah, not in. Not in the. The other way.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Why not cute enough? Or. I mean, what. What's your. We just.

[Kevin Spacey]

We just have. Have a friendship that's gone 26 years.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Steady boyfriend?

[Kevin Spacey]

I don't have a steady boyfriend. But I. But I'm in the market.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

Well, don't look at me.

[Kevin Spacey]

I wasn't looking at you.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

I was answering your question. You plainly were. Now get out of here.

[Kevin Spacey]

Thank you, sir. It's a pleasure. Indeed.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

A pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Kevin Spacey]

Absolutely. Club Random. Delighted.

[Comedian/Interviewer]

We will both be cancelled.

[Kevin Spacey]

We'll both be cancel next Wednesday. Yes, that's right.

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This episode is brought to you by Google Health. Stop chasing someone else's definition of health. What matters is what's healthy for you. Google Health offers a new kind of coach built with Gemini for effortless tracking, sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you. Visit googlestore.com to learn more and start a new relationship with your health. Requires Google Account, Google Health app Internet and Google Health Premium subscription Features subject to change availability and results vary. Not intended for medical purposes. Works independently of Gemini Apps. Check responses for accuracy. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use the them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] special offer.