Penn Jillette | Club Random Classics with Bill Maher

Summary

Club Random with Bill Maher – Penn Jillette | Club Random Classics

Release date: July 16, 2026
Host: Bill Maher
Guest: Penn Jillette

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Episode Overview

In this Club Random Classics episode, Bill Maher chats with magician, skeptic, and performer Penn Jillette for an expansive, uproarious, and thoughtful conversation that covers everything but politics. The two dive deep into big topics: animal rights, diet, free speech, comedy, parenting, skepticism, psychics, growing up nerdy, the psychology of deception, and more. Their long history and mutual respect make for an honest, revealing, and at times hilarious exploration of what Bill describes as “the most honest conversation you’ll ever have anywhere in media.”

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Key Topics & Highlights

Health, Diet & Veganism

• Penn’s Weight Loss & Diet Evolution

  • Penn shares his story of losing 120 pounds and how it led him to veganism.
    • Penn: "I'm afraid I'm a pretty hardcore vegan now. Have been for nine years." (03:02)
  • Bill is not a vegan but identifies with some animal rights positions and is a "medical skeptic," questioning health claims about plant-based eating.
    • Bill: "The science may very well be that people or some people need to be adopting even animal protein…The truth always comes first and the science is out on that." (03:30)
  • Both discuss cognitive dissonance involved in factory farming and agree most people would be disturbed if they saw its realities. (04:04–05:04)

• Ag-Gag Laws & Animal Cruelty

  • Penn and Bill discuss ag-gag laws and how Big Ag suppresses information.
    • Penn: "You can't show the inside of a slaughterhouse." (05:41)
    • Bill: "When you torture animals, it's gonna come back on humans." (05:52)
  • Penn points out the connection to disease outbreaks (COVID, bird flu) arising from animal farming (06:47).

• Penn’s Potato Mono-Diet Experience

  • Penn: “I just started to eat potatoes…for two weeks. And what that did for me...it taught me what it felt like to be hungry, which I didn’t know.” (07:28–08:11)

• Social Role of Food

  • They discuss the social and psychological impact of fasting, mono diets, and eating routines.
    • Bill: “When I do the fast, I can't talk to anybody because it is social. So I have to stay home…” (10:20)

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Show Business & Magic

• Longevity in Vegas

  • Penn and Teller are the longest-running headliners in Vegas, 23 years at the Penn & Teller Theater.
    • Penn: “Fuck you, Sinatra. We have now gone…23 years.” (11:19)
  • They discuss creating new material for “Fool Us” and how most magicians have 25 tricks in their lives, but they need 20 new ones each year (12:52–13:14).

• Human Work Differences

  • Bill and Penn marvel at Penn & Teller's work ethic and love for the craft, with Penn noting:
    • “I intend to die in office. We have no plans of retiring.” (14:50)

• Notable Story: ‘Nut Chair’ on Politically Incorrect

  • Penn recounts discovering he was always cast in the “nut chair” on Bill’s old show.
    • Penn: “I said, this is a weird list, Bill, because you always have one nut. You have one person in the nut chair, and you always know who the nut is...I’m in the nut chair. And then you looked at me like, ‘You always are, Penn. You’re always in the nutshell.’” (28:16–29:18)
  • Maher’s design goal for the show: “It was a designed train wreck of four different people who have nothing in common. But we all get to vote, so we should all get to talk.” (29:32)

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Skepticism, Psychics & Ghosts

• Debunking Psychic Acts

  • Deep dive into the techniques behind psychic readings, audience plants, “pre-show work,” and the concept of “dual reality” in magic.
    • Bill: “All acts who do, like, a psychic thing, they’re all phony?” (31:34)
    • Penn: “Every single person that I’ve experienced has been phony.” (31:45)
  • Penn tries to explain the intricacies:
    • “You could do that, that gives you the exact effect you’re talking about, is for a nice usher to say to people...‘What kinds of things are you concerned about?’ And you’re done.” (41:31)
    • “It’s pretty easy to get information off a whiteboard. It’s pretty easy to get information off a chalkboard.” (33:39)
  • Bill requests specifics, Penn gives magician’s explanations, and both reflect on the importance of skepticism.

• Science’s Motto

  • Both reiterate the wisdom of not jumping to conclusions for unexplained events.
    • Penn: "The most important three words in science: I don't know." (37:47)
    • Bill: "That means open. ... I don't say there is no God. I say I preach the gospel of I don't know." (37:28)

• Ghosts & Unexplained Phenomena

  • Discuss anecdotal ghost encounters and agree that “I don’t know” is the most honest answer.
    • Penn: “If you say, can you explain these? My answer is no…My only moment is when you say, well, then it was a ghost. How about you say, well, then we don’t know, and then we’re done.” (46:34)

• Debunking Faith Healers

  • Penn relays how famed skeptic James Randi busted a wheelchair miracle cure using simple stagecraft/trickery (39:25–40:44).

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Parenting, Marriage, and Happiness

• Parenting Studies & Experience

  • They talk about the cliché that having children doesn’t necessarily make one happier, referencing studies and personal realities.
    • Bill: “What makes me happy isn’t what makes you happy. So we’re comparing apples with not even another type of fruit.” (16:06)
    • Penn: “There isn’t a study that will tell you that I’m happier than you because of having children. They all say the opposite.” (15:50)
  • Penn rails against the American idealization of parenting and offers a poetic argument about nature vs. nurture:
    • Penn: “If parents are so important to their children, why don’t immigrants' children have accents?” (54:41)

• Marriage, Law & Practicality

  • Penn shares his and his wife’s practical approach to marriage (“we tried to write up an elaborate contract…[but] the lawyers finally said get married, save yourself some money”). (22:32)

• Generational Differences & Toughness

  • They tell stories of leaving home, being tough on themselves, and today’s extended adolescence.
    • Bill: “When we were kids, it was like, oh, you kids are so soft. But compared to these kids today, we’re the fucking Marines.” (66:16)
  • Penn: “One problem is that people stay children until they're 27. The other problem is we treat people like their children until they're 27. So we're contradicting ourselves.” (62:35)

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Identity, Drugs & Libertarianism

• Sober vs. High

  • Penn, who’s always been straight-edge (no alcohol, caffeine, or drugs), recalls Trey Parker saying: “My biggest flaw was never being high.” (17:17)
  • Bill distinguishes his “situational” marijuana use vs. true addiction, contrasting it with his past cigarette addiction.

• Libertarian Labels

  • On libertarianism, Maher says: “Some things I am libertarian about. Makes sense.” (19:59)
  • Penn: “Libertarianism only really works if people are taking more responsibility than many people want.” (20:40)
  • Both distance themselves from Libertarian extremes (“seatbelts restrict my freedom...”)

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Aging, Sex, and Relationships

• Sexual Awkwardness & High School Regrets

  • Both reminisce about high school, dating difficulties, and shyness.
    • Bill: “There was a couple of girls who were sweet on me, like, if I could have just reacted to it, I couldn't even do that.” (80:32)

• Aging & Youth

  • Penn jokes, “I'll now give you the secret to getting laid in high school," and Bill: "It's a little late, pal." (80:25)
  • They lament youth’s awkwardness and how, in most of human history, children were working as adults at 15. (62:20)

• On 69 (the sex position), Humorously

  • Bill: “It's the most overrated sex position. It's the fucking Betamax of fucking. Everybody tried it once, they didn't like it.” (77:24)
  • Penn: “I've enjoyed many times. It's different for me because I'm taller than you.” (77:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Magic & Skepticism:

  • Penn: “Every single person that I’ve experienced [psychic performers] has been phony.” (31:45)
  • Bill: “The most important three words in science: I don’t know.” (37:47)

• On Parenting:

  • Penn (on parental influence): “Why don’t immigrants’ children have accents?” (54:41)

• On Career Longevity:

  • Penn: “We intend to die in office. We have no plans of retiring.” (14:50)

• On High School Social Life:

  • Penn: “I was also the worst thing you could be in high school. I was a juggler.” (61:13)

• On Johnny Carson Story:

  • Penn shares a bittersweet story about almost showing Johnny Carson his film ‘The Aristocrats’ before Carson passed away. (87:47–89:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:02] Penn on becoming vegan
• [05:41] Ag gag and slaughterhouse discussion
• [07:28] Penn’s potato mono-diet
• [13:14] Writing new magic for “Fool Us”
• [14:50] “We intend to die in office”—career work ethic
• [28:16] “Nut chair” Politically Incorrect anecdote
• [31:34] Psychic debunking
• [37:47] “I don’t know”—science & skepticism
• [41:31] How psychics use audience plants
• [54:41] Immigrants’ children & accents—parenting insight
• [66:16] Generational toughness compared to now
• [77:24] Sex and relationships—69 position gag
• [87:47] Johnny Carson & ‘The Aristocrats’ story

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Tone & Atmosphere

Bill and Penn maintain their trademark witty, candid, and irreverent tone throughout, trading playful jabs, honest confessions, and big laughs. Their mutual respect—despite disagreements—enables a rare level of depth and vulnerability. The conversation delivers both humor and substance, offering listeners insights into skepticism, the struggle for self-improvement, and the nature of happiness—while never letting things get too serious for long.

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Final Note:
For listeners who haven’t tuned in, this episode offers a masterclass in open, non-dogmatic dialogue between two brilliant minds who have spent decades thinking deeply and joking about what matters (and what doesn’t). Whether discussing veganism, magicians’ secrets, or why adolescence is so painful, Penn and Bill deliver a rich and engaging conversation—true to the Club Random spirit.

Transcript

[Bill Maher]

The best dancers from across the globe are about to join me for the audition of a lifetime.

[Commercial Announcer]

ABC Mondays. Do they have what it takes to compete and be the next Dancing with the Stars pro? I'm here to win.

[Bill Maher]

Nothing is gonna stop me.

[Commercial Announcer]

Our star judges will decide.

[Penn Jillette]

This is what hunger looks like. It was 100% the wrong choice.

[Commercial Announcer]

Robert Irwin hosts.

[Bill Maher]

The next era of ballroom starts right here on Dancing with the Stars. The next Pro.

[Commercial Announcer]

All new Mondays, 8. 7 Central on ABC. Next day on HUL.

[Bill Maher]

Summer soccer is here and so are

[Penn Jillette]

the watch parties and Uber eats.

[Bill Maher]

Has your game day essentials covered? Everything you need to keep your crowd happy delivered straight to your door. Get wings, pizza, chips, dips, fresh ingredients and more. Keep the soccer going and all your

[Penn Jillette]

game day essentials flowing.

[Bill Maher]

Order in so you can lock in

[Penn Jillette]

for the games only on Ubereats for a limited time.

[Commercial Announcer]

Morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Bill Maher]

Breaking news. Our merch just got a full revamp with all new designs and items. So if you want a little more random in your life, head over to clubrandom.com and check out the store. We've got premium hoodies, including our brand new quad hoodies with the updated logo. Super soft T shirts, super soft for men and women, and even tie dye shirts. All merch is available [e-mail] while you're there, catch up on recent episodes and grab some swag and bring a little random home. Once again, that's Club random dot com. Well, this week's Club Random classic is with Penn Jillette. Yeah, the giant magician. That guy. But this isn't really about magic. It's about otherwise intelligent people believe ridiculous things. Penn and I get into religion, psychics, free speech, comedy, politics, and the psychology of deception. We agree on a few things, disagree on a few, and as usual, that's when the conversation gets interesting. It's funny, provocative, and one of those episodes that feels even more relevant now than when we first recorded it. Check out this Club Random classic with Penn Jillette. Club Random. Oh, look at you standing.

[Penn Jillette]

Good to see you.

[Bill Maher]

Wow, you look like you lost a lot of weight.

[Penn Jillette]

Only about 120 pounds.

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And I know it wasn't as epic.

[Penn Jillette]

No, no, it wasn't.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

I'm not a big fan of that. But it's been now. I mean, I just haven't seen you often it's been like, been down.

[Bill Maher]

That's really.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Jillette]

And also that brought me around to. To a point of view of yours that I thought I would never share.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, good. Which is.

[Penn Jillette]

It brought me around to being. I'm afraid I'm a pretty hardcore vegan now. Have been for nine years.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not a vegan.

[Penn Jillette]

I know. But here's what happened, you see, when you.

[Bill Maher]

But I'm a animal rights. A medical sk. Well, animal rights, yes. But also medical skeptic.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, in the broad sense, I started out stopping animal products for my health, and it turns out.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

[Penn Jillette]

You don't either?

[Bill Maher]

I'm not sure. I think the science is completely out on that. I mean, the science may very well be that people or some people need to be adopted in the health. Animal protein. That may be the case. I know that's not what PETA wants to hear, and I love my friends at PETA, but I'm sorry. The truth always comes first and the science is out on that.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And I've heard many, many doctors say, all my patients are vegetarians. They don't look good. I disagree with that because I know vegetarians who do look fine.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. But I'm not sure. I'm not sure you do, but I'll give you that. It's a. What I was saying was, what's really interesting is when you give up having to resolve your cognitive dissonance with factory farming and so on.

[Bill Maher]

Yes.

[Penn Jillette]

Once. You no longer have to do that.

[Bill Maher]

Right. I agree.

[Penn Jillette]

It's one of those things that I don't think you can. You can find a person that'll do anything. I don't think you can find reasonable people who would go into a factory farm and say, I feel good about this. This is the way we should be.

[Bill Maher]

But there are definitely people who, even if they saw it, wouldn't care that much.

[Penn Jillette]

That's right.

[Bill Maher]

Because they're.

[Penn Jillette]

But that's different.

[Bill Maher]

It's different. I mean, there are some people I always compare it to me and babies. Not that I would ever want to hurt a baby, but, like, you can show me humans, in fact, but babies, you know, like in a movie, and bad things are happening to them. It won't actually make me cry, but an animal.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

It's just some people are fur people

[Penn Jillette]

and there's, you know, that's. I believe that's a cultural thing. You know, how we. How we start to function that. I'm not sure they're really built in yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I don't know about that. A cultural thing to, like, just have a thing for animals.

[Penn Jillette]

I think.

[Bill Maher]

What culture.

[Penn Jillette]

I think our culture is moving in that direction.

[Bill Maher]

What culture hates animals?

[Penn Jillette]

Well, you would say America.

[Bill Maher]

America. Well, yeah, but not like. But only mostly because they're more like the. You're right about the fact that if most people saw it, they would be appalled, but they just want to do the out of sight, out of mind.

[Penn Jillette]

It's one of the amazing things about freedom of speech in this country. You can't show the inside of a slaughterhouse.

[Bill Maher]

Ag gag rules. Yes. Big ag.

[Penn Jillette]

How does that happen?

[Bill Maher]

And you know what? This is all coming to. This is all going to come to the fore again. I tried to make it a case when Covid happened with, you know, I said, when you torture animals, it's gonna come back on humans. We keep doing it.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. It's not the torture. It's putting a billion of these things in close quarters.

[Bill Maher]

Well, that's torture. You're torturing them.

[Penn Jillette]

But I'm saying it's a byproduct of the torture. It's not the purpose of it.

[Bill Maher]

But the sickness that you're putting into the animals by torturing them comes back to make us sick. I'm not gonna go into all the details of how that is. This is not a science show.

[Penn Jillette]

Why bother? Because we agree, right?

[Bill Maher]

No, no. Right. But just for people listening. But what?

[Penn Jillette]

Are people listening?

[Bill Maher]

No, not really.

[Penn Jillette]

I thought this was the first honest conversation we'd ever had.

[Bill Maher]

Well, it is the most honest conversation you'll ever have anywhere in media, I'll guarantee you that. But what I was gonna say is this is all gonna come back in a much bigger way now with bird flu.

[Penn Jillette]

Oh, yeah, it's all bird flu. As a matter of fact, with COVID we got really lucky. The first thing we get that's bird flu related, it's really bad. I mean, the coming plague, as the book said, or the epidemic that's coming is gonna be really, really bad. And our hope is maybe we can be dead by then. That's what we're clutching on to.

[Bill Maher]

Well, no, that. That could not be the. We got to find a better way to look at it than that.

[Penn Jillette]

One thing you know, is if you cut down animal products a lot, it would help things a lot.

[Bill Maher]

But you. What was. I remember you and the potatoes.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, well, that.

[Bill Maher]

What. What is the potatoes?

[Penn Jillette]

The potatoes was. I'm a glutton, and I was completely on the sad. Which is, you know, standard American diet, right? And a friend of mine who's pretty pro science, worked at NASA and all that shit, said to me, you know, you gotta knock yourself out of your head. So people tend to say it back in an oversimplified way. That's why I'm asking that you just started to eat potatoes. And the fact is I did for two weeks.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

And what that did for me, I'm not saying for anybody else, what it did for me is it taught me what it felt like to be hungry, which I didn't know, you know, you've never been fat.

[Bill Maher]

No, but learning, but not fat.

[Penn Jillette]

Learning not to be a glutton and not to fall for all the social cues. You want to knock yourself out of it for a little while. And two weeks of eating nothing but potatoes, I was thinking differently and I started to taste food differently and started to feel differently.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I mean, I.

[Penn Jillette]

It could have been anything. Potatoes weren't magic.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

It was just a mono diet for long enough to say, I'm not going to see those ads the same.

[Bill Maher]

Well, just something to disrupt. I mean, when you think about most people who never do a fast, for example, I mean, you're just, you're. They would never really think. And I never really thought for year after year anything other than I eat three meals a day and I never skip a day. Cause it's eating, for fuck's sake. And then you get older and you have health issues and then you're doing things like. I mean, I've, I think for about five years now. A couple of times a year I do that prolon fast. It's like they call it the fasting mimicking diet.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, I've just, I've done a tiny

[Bill Maher]

bit of food, but it.

[Penn Jillette]

I've done just water for two weeks.

[Bill Maher]

Just. See, I can't do that. I tried the, the hardcore. I can't.

[Penn Jillette]

But remember, I still have. I mean, for one time I was down much lower than this and probably to where you are in terms of body fat. But I'm not there now. I could easily go three weeks and.

[Bill Maher]

But what the fast does, especially if you do it, you know, regularly, it does again, retrains you to how much food you need. And you know, and it's. Then you can go to. What I did was two meals a day instead of three. Because compared to the fast, two meals a day is joyous.

[Penn Jillette]

I do one and it's one.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, one.

[Penn Jillette]

And I eat very, very, very carefully. And it's all, it's all vegan, but I take the Supplements. The thing that I didn't really understand is that how much of the way we live our lives is based around food. Of course, I can now talk to somebody without eating. Used to be that's all I did was eat. When I.

[Bill Maher]

Well, when I do the fast, I can't talk to anybody because it is social. So I have to stay home. I mean, some people can work through a fast. I'm amazed. I can't be social. I can't. I don't want to talk to you on the phone. I just have to be alone. And that's okay for five days. It's actually a nice reset and it's reading and certainly can't do any pot.

[Penn Jillette]

When you come back from doing a fast and you go into Hollywood meetings and it's 10 o' clock and they have bagels and donuts and you say, who's hungry right now? Why do they have this food? Who came to the meeting going, wow, I'm wicked hungry.

[Bill Maher]

Wait, you go to Hollywood meetings at 10am I have, I have. Recently.

[Penn Jillette]

Even though they know. No, but I mean, a few years

[Bill Maher]

ago I was just gonna say I'm

[Penn Jillette]

from Vegas, so I'm not really supposed to be up before noon.

[Bill Maher]

Right. What time do you get up?

[Penn Jillette]

I usually get up actually about 10, nine or 10, because I go to sleep about two.

[Bill Maher]

So how many years have you been at the Rio?

[Penn Jillette]

I should interject here because you might be interested. The longest running headliners in Vegas history. Fuck you, Sinatra. We have now gone. I only say that because he's dead. 23 years. We've been playing conveniently named Penn and Teller Theater.

[Bill Maher]

Right. I've been to. Do you remember that I did a trick with you guys?

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

What was that for? It's funny because, you know, I don't know what year this is. I'm guessing the 90s.

[Penn Jillette]

Yep.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

It would have been on Sin City Spectacular.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

And we called in a favor.

[Bill Maher]

I remember. I was happy to do it. I was honored. The name of the trick was Blood from a Stone.

[Penn Jillette]

Oh, yeah, yeah. With the hand.

[Bill Maher]

And I remember.

[Penn Jillette]

What, into the hand? The razor into the hand. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

No, there was a stone. Yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

But it turned into a faux expose that had people cut in their hand.

[Bill Maher]

I don't specifically remember that. I don't remember much. Of course, it's the 90s, pothead. But what I do remember, I remembered the name of the trick, Blood from a Stone. And I also remember afterwards thinking, oh, my God, that's so cheap. When you get up too close to It.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, thank you.

[Bill Maher]

Like, really, this is what's fooling all these people. It was just like a. Like a magic shop Rock that.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, that was the first part. There was a second part. We paid off.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

You were the setup.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I was the setup.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

There was a payoff later. But, yeah, you know, we have. We do fool us. So we have to come up with 20 new tricks a year.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

And most magicians do 25 in their lives. So we are writing a lot of material, and it's really fun. You know, I bet you that's fun because that's new. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

What. What I can't wrap my mind around is the amount of shows you do. Like, I couldn't do that.

[Penn Jillette]

Like, we do a lot of shows.

[Bill Maher]

Do you do two a night?

[Penn Jillette]

No, not anymore. We're doing. We also go on the road.

[Bill Maher]

How many weeks a year?

[Penn Jillette]

Well, 52 if you count on the road. Like, for instance, next year.

[Bill Maher]

What, you never take a week off?

[Penn Jillette]

No, next year we'll be doing. Oh, my God, Australia and England. It's the 50th anniversary.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, my goodness.

[Penn Jillette]

But I don't. I take a day or two off every two or three years. I just love to work.

[Bill Maher]

Humans are so different.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, the thing. I mean, just the. You're not bored if you're doing the same act.

[Penn Jillette]

I don't do the same act. We have. We do different stuff on the road than we do in Vegas. We put different tricks in it.

[Bill Maher]

So from Thursday to Friday, it's a different show.

[Penn Jillette]

This week it will be way different. Yeah. From Thursday to Friday. But you just happen to get lucky on that question. The best living magician is a man named Juan Temariz, who's from Spain. And we have a bit in the show called the Spaniel, which we wrote with a great Spanish magician named Hondro. And he's a. He's a student of Juan Tamaris. So we were going to pull that out of the show and a bunch of other stuff to put new stuff in, but Juan's coming from Madrid to see our show, so we're keeping in the stuff we want him to see. That may be unprofessional to say tonight's show is for this guy.

[Bill Maher]

And your partner feels the same way about all this work or you're dragging him. No, he's happy to do it, too.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. We intend to die in office. We have no plans of retiring. I mean, Teller is seven years older than me, so I am, you know, three score and nine. And he's you know, he's 70. 76.

[Bill Maher]

Three score. Now, for the kids out there, I can only explain this to you in terms of the Gettysburg Address. Kids, you remember four score and seven years ago. That's 87 years. That was the time from the American Revolution to the Gettysburg Address. Score means a period of 20 years. And only people who are three score or older would ever use it. And certainly not to get laid. But no, no. But you're married, right?

[Penn Jillette]

But, yeah, I believe we're married. Well, you've been married. I've been buried. Oh, geez, I don't. 20 years.

[Bill Maher]

20 a score.

[Penn Jillette]

We have two. We have two children. We have two children who are 19 and 18.

[Bill Maher]

Do you like them?

[Penn Jillette]

I do.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

I do. And that's. That's fortunate. Although I will tell you that there isn't a study that will tell you that I'm happier than you because of having children. Wait, they all say the opposite.

[Bill Maher]

What do the studies say? That you're happier if you have children?

[Penn Jillette]

No.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, Than if you don't. Well, first of all, it's so stupid because we're all individuals. What makes me happy isn't what makes you happy. So we're comparing apples with not even another type of fruit.

[Penn Jillette]

What'd you call me?

[Bill Maher]

Well, again, I've heard rumors.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, well, they're all true.

[Bill Maher]

Right. What were you, like a gay when I'm drunk kind of guy?

[Penn Jillette]

I've never been drunk. You know that.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, that's right. So what was your excuse? Full moon.

[Penn Jillette]

You know, that's one of the things that these. These two people have differently. I don't even drink caffeine.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

I. I've never had a puff of marijuana. I don't think that's true for you.

[Bill Maher]

Well, you're going to get one tonight.

[Penn Jillette]

And you know, I don't drink alcohol, but I have had, you know, what they referred to as medicinal drugs, like morphine and stuff when I was wicked sick. And I gotta tell you, I really enjoyed it.

[Bill Maher]

Morphine, of course.

[Penn Jillette]

And a matter of fact, it's opium. You know Trey Parker?

[Bill Maher]

Well, now, I don't know him, but I know who he is.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, Trey used to say probably still does. I haven't talked to him in a while. That my biggest flaw was never being high.

[Bill Maher]

You personally? Oh, I see.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, so he said he wanted to be with me, but I was high. So I had gone to the dentist and they had made a mistake and given me much more than they should have of like some powerful painkiller.

[Bill Maher]

Good for Them.

[Penn Jillette]

So I said to my wife, I said, call Trey Parker.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Penn Jillette]

So he flew in and spent an evening talking to me and said I was right. You're a lot better high.

[Bill Maher]

Well, look, some people literally are better high. I think I am in some areas. I love to write high, stand up. I can do high and often have real time. No, that would be a disaster. That's not the kind of thing you want to be high for. There's too many elements going on, too many important people. Got to keep the clock. I'm more on a, you know, a big network. It's not the same thing. In this show, I can go, oh, what were we talking about? Or, you know, fuck you, or, you know, are you gay? Or whatever it is. Just I'm not going to. That's just a different kind of thing. High is right for something. I've never been an everyday smoker. I've said this many times. I'm a situational smoker. And that's how I. I know it sounds counterintuitive to say I'm not addictive to marijuana. I could have quit anytime in the last 45 years that I've been smoking it, and I just didn't. But it's actually kind of true. Like when I do the fast, there is. You don't miss it. It's like, I know I'm not going to smoke during a fast or on a Tuesday night or whatever night. I'm not smoking and my body doesn't go, come on, let's do this. When I was on cigarettes, my body was saying, come on, let's do this.

[Penn Jillette]

There's no. There's very little evidence of addictive qualities of marijuana by almost any definition. You know, I'm not. I'm someone who doesn't smoke marijuana, who has been on the COVID of High Times magazine.

[Bill Maher]

Well, that's.

[Penn Jillette]

I have been very, very pro legalization on everything. Because I just think that if you don't have the freedom to smoke dope, I don't really have the freedom not to.

[Bill Maher]

I. Right. And I think if we'd be asked, most men on the street, women on the street who are trans on the street. I don't want to leave anybody out,

[Penn Jillette]

whoever happens to be on the street.

[Bill Maher]

Any life form on the street. Pen Jillette. First they would say magic, and of course they didn't know that. Second, I think they would say is libertarian.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. Which faded a little bit for me a lot.

[Bill Maher]

I got that tag, too. And look, you know, I'm. I think we're probably similar in this. Some things I am libertarian about. Makes sense.

[Penn Jillette]

You once said to me, I think, that libertarians were, you know, conservatives, wanted to smoke dope.

[Bill Maher]

Some of them are, yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

And. And the formal parties come to be more true.

[Bill Maher]

The formal party takes it too far. Like the actual Libertarian Party. They're the ones who I think of saying, you know, seatbelts, no, they restrict my freedom, and I want to soar like an eagle right through the windshield.

[Penn Jillette]

The other thing is that for me, a lot of what gets forgotten is the responsibility. Libertarianism only really works if people are taking more responsibility than many people want. And the fact that I seem to want responsibility, you know, it's that mistake that's made with the do unto others thing that we've been hitting again and again. I cannot treat you like I want to be treated because you want different things, you know, and that is the problem with extrapolating from your own desires that everybody else wants.

[Bill Maher]

I don't understand that. Of course you can treat me like we're talking about things we have in common. Like we treat each other like. I'm polite to you, of course, but.

[Penn Jillette]

But we can't. I can't. I can't use the. The solipsism of thinking that you're. You have the same desires I have.

[Bill Maher]

No. And that's what makes the world go.

[Penn Jillette]

Right. You know what I'm saying? It's a good thing.

[Bill Maher]

It is a good thing because we all know or. Or else we'd all be competing more so for the same things. I mean, we are already competing for a lot, you know, people. I mean, this is a capitalist society. We're all trying to get ahead and get rich and. Or die trying. But at least we're not competing, like, on other levels, like for pot and liquor and women.

[Penn Jillette]

That's all you bet. That's all you bet, right?

[Bill Maher]

I mean, I think the marriage, not marriage thing is, to me, the clearest divide as to how people are just built differently and have different DNA and different needs. Part of it is psychological, of course. Part of it is physical. Some people just have a very high libido.

[Penn Jillette]

But I was very anti marriage, as was my wife, which is an odd thing to say. And I did not think that the solution was gay marriage. I thought the solution was no marriage for anybody. Make contracts. But we talked to several lawyers and we couldn't get anybody to tell me 100% that if we had children and my wife died, custody would go to me.

[Bill Maher]

I see.

[Penn Jillette]

And we tried to write up an elaborate contract that would do that. And the lawyers finally said get married, save yourself some money because we. I think that all the stuff that comes with marriage and saying that there's one way or a broad way that people interact with each other is madness. It's insane. But they've put up so many roadblocks because I would not want and I trust my wife's family completely but I don't want to be in the situation where she would have a car accident. Of course this is now academic question because my children are over 18 but when they were 10, my wife has a car accident and someone in her family decides to take me to court over custody. I don't want that to happen. And when you're married, there's no doubt you're the father. It's him.

[Bill Maher]

Boy, you think about this more than

[Penn Jillette]

Biden, but you know, I have. I should probably have confessed this to you earlier, probably before you invited me on the show. If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With sleep score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high. Know your sleep score with Apple Watch. IPhone 11 or later required when you're 7 11's hottest fire chicken sandwich. People think you're intense. Well, yeah, I'm hot, so yeah, intense. Wanna see if you can handle the heat? Then try me with pickles or spicy mayo and jalapenos. Oh, and it's all just $4.99.

[Commercial Announcer]

That's a deal.

[Penn Jillette]

Almost as hot as I am. Almost sweet. No spicy. See for yourself. $4.99 and only at $7.11. Valid through 8. 2546 participating stores only while supplies last visit store for full terms. About six weeks ago, I cracked and I just said, I can't take in any more news. I can't read the Times anymore. I can't watch Bill's show. My closest friend, as you may know, is Lawrence o'. Donnell. And I would watch his show.

[Bill Maher]

You did not know that.

[Penn Jillette]

And I wrote to Lawrence and I said, I gotta stop watching the news. And that includes your show. And I said, make me one promise, Lawrence. If things change enough that I should vote for Trump, send me a text. Other than that, I'm not watching the news. So I'm a Little bit self conscious. Cuz I used to have a pretty good idea what was going on.

[Bill Maher]

But you should see the clip from Friday of Jiminy Glick on my show. Okay, you will die. I'm just sitting there. I'm just a prop. But you know, Jiminy Glick, I mean, he did it for me and it was just. I mean, I've never had reaction like that. It's really. I mean, he's just a genius.

[Penn Jillette]

Yes, absolutely is.

[Bill Maher]

But you're not the only one. I mean, Sam Harris famously got off Twitter about a year ago and talked about that and said like, he was so much more clear after that. Like, it's really. I mean, I know, I don't get it because like I, I want to say to these very smart people like you and him, why did you ever go down this stupid rabbit hole to begin with? I'm not a genius, but I saw from a mile away that this is a stupid thing to do. To engage with the whole world on everybody's complaints 24 7. Really? You thought that was a good point.

[Penn Jillette]

But also there's this other thing that's happened, I believe, and maybe this is simply getting old and that's a possibility. And if that's the answer, then that's the answer. But I believe that some people were talking about issues in our lifetime and I believe that now it's become nothing but team sports.

[Bill Maher]

Well, it is.

[Penn Jillette]

And I would watch Lawrence o' Donnell and go, how's Trump doing? He's gonna be okay. And I just can't do that. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

But to be fair, that's not what I'm doing. That is not what I'm doing. And the reason why my show and my career in general are doing better than ever. My book went to number one is because I'm not doing that.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Because I am the. I'm not going to say the one guy. I don't monitor everybody else, but people come up to me all the time and say it to me. You are the one guy who is not playing this partisan game. You, you are. I get, I get that you're center left, but you are not afraid to go after you. Right.

[Penn Jillette]

You never have.

[Bill Maher]

Now. You are not afraid to go after the last.

[Penn Jillette]

As the person who was on the first week and the last week of politically good.

[Bill Maher]

Is that right?

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Penn Jillette]

I'm the one who was on both.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Jillette]

You knew it at the time.

[Bill Maher]

Did you get smokus when you saw the sign behind you there when you walked in? I will tell you Isn't that a perfect spot?

[Penn Jillette]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

I mean. And you had to put a stripper pole in front of it.

[Penn Jillette]

Did I tell you my favorite Bill Maher story?

[Bill Maher]

Oh, please, because I love him.

[Penn Jillette]

I was on Politically Incorrect, and they were what year the seats there? I don't know.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, 90s.

[Penn Jillette]

Long time ago. And there was your seat. And for some reason, this didn't often happen, but it was just the two of us on the set, and I had the list of the people who were on with me, and I forgot who it was. It was some drug czar for Clinton and someone else. And so. And so, you know, it was these people. And I said to you.

[Bill Maher]

And it was probably less a sitcom actor.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. It was probably your kindest moment in your life. I looked at. And I mean, I was sincere. I was not setting you up for a joke. I said, this is a weird list, Bill, because you always have one nut. You have one person the nut share, and you always know who the nut is. And you went. That's all you did. And I went, oh, it's me. And you went, well, you know, we have all different people on. And I said, I'm in the nut chair. And then you kind of looked at me like, you always are, Penn. You're always in the nutshell.

[Bill Maher]

That's hysterical.

[Penn Jillette]

But your look is a look that they've never seen Bill Maher give, which was the look of, I'm kind, I care for you. But there's a truth I have to tell you, that might be a little tough.

[Bill Maher]

Well, I was more fond of the nutshair. I didn't even know we had one. But yes. Yeah, now it's coming back to me. Right. I mean, I wouldn't call it nut, but like somebody. Of course, the nutsher was where you were probably going to get the lion's share of the good stuff that came out of the show, because the nutsher is somebody who is valuable and probably interesting with unpredictable ideas. And that's what I always wanted was. And that was the. You know, I always say about politically great. It was a designed train wreck of four different people who have nothing in common. But we all get to vote, so we should all get to talk. And there were some people who were on that show, like musicians, a couple of them. I won't say the names. I think I can remember at least one of them who sat there for four segments and said nothing. Like, they just had a good seat for the show. Like the whole show went by and they did not make a word come out of their mouth.

[Penn Jillette]

The only show. And I did your show a bunch of times. The only show that I shouldn't have done and I didn't enjoy was right after my mom died. And this is not your fault. I was on the show with a psychic who talked to the dead, and it was the one time I've been on your show that I couldn't mitigate my grief and my anger.

[Bill Maher]

Wow.

[Penn Jillette]

And my outrage I couldn't temper with any sort of comedy. And I remember after.

[Bill Maher]

Because you thought he was a phony. No, I'm asking. Yeah, that's it. Because you're the magician.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. But also. But the point was, my mom had just died, so I had. No. I should have called up and said, my mom died two weeks ago. I shouldn't be on your comedy show. Especially with that guy, Life After Death. And afterwards, you just went, yeah, your mom just died.

[Bill Maher]

And I'm so glad we got onto this because. Because you're the guy to ask about this. All acts who do, like, a psychic thing, they're all phony. Is that what you're saying?

[Penn Jillette]

I have.

[Bill Maher]

Because sometimes I don't. I can't.

[Penn Jillette]

I have. I have looked very, very hard sincerely trying to find something that seems supernatural, and I haven't been able to. And that's as far as you're gonna get out of me. Every single person that I've experienced has been phony.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

And every single person.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know. I don't remember the name of this guy, but. And I don't see this a lot because I don't seek it out, but

[Penn Jillette]

I do seek it out.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. That's why I'm asking you. Okay. Barbra Streisand. I don't know if she's.

[Penn Jillette]

I think she exists.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, yes. And is a very good friend of mine, and I love her dearly. And she may be right. I don't know.

[Penn Jillette]

To love you.

[Bill Maher]

Well, she's definitely right to love me. But she has someone who comes out in her act, at least when I saw her the last time live. And this is going back, you know, not that long, but maybe eight years. And it's somebody she presents in the middle of her show who does a psychic act and does things, you know, like somebody in the audience. And you can tell when someone is not a plant in the audience. No one is that good an actor.

[Penn Jillette]

I agree with you on that.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. So, I mean. And then, you know, writes on a whiteboard the name of their high school boyfriend or whatever it is that is like, it's like, no, I know. I don't know how magic tricks work. So I'm saying maybe there is a way. But it is. It is befuddling to me how someone could do that trick. What could possibly be the means by which you get into this person's head?

[Penn Jillette]

You've just described a trick. You just happen to have. You described a trick that's trivial, that is easy. But there are other ones that are harder.

[Bill Maher]

Easy. How do you do it?

[Penn Jillette]

Well, I don't know if. First of all, I wouldn't necessarily be right. And that's what makes me hesitant. I'm not protecting magic secrets. But whenever you postulate this is how a trick was done, you could be wrong because I don't know all the details. But you can. It's pretty easy to get information off a whiteboard. It's pretty easy to get information off a chalkboard.

[Bill Maher]

No, no.

[Penn Jillette]

If you write something down. I know it.

[Bill Maher]

No, but he's. I don't understand. He's writing it down.

[Penn Jillette]

Oh, he's writing it down.

[Bill Maher]

He's writing it down. He's saying he is talking to somebody in the audience who just Again, unless they're the most brilliant actor or actress in the world, I don't see acting. I see. No, I've never met you before and you know. And then I'm writing something down that is in your head that only you would know.

[Penn Jillette]

Imagine they're telling the truth on everything.

[Bill Maher]

Who's telling the truth? What do you mean?

[Penn Jillette]

I imagine the person in the audience is telling the truth. As you said, I'm agreeing with you. Yeah. So you have to.

[Bill Maher]

The person is blown away.

[Penn Jillette]

They're destroyed.

[Bill Maher]

Rob Schminckes was my high school. Or the guy got the name wrong by one letter or something and it's like, come on. I can't explain it, but I can. Please.

[Penn Jillette]

But it takes a long time. There's a thing called pre show work which is much more brilliant than you think it would be. And there's also something called dual reality, which is really, really important. If I'm doing a trick for you and the audience is watching, if I do a trick that will blow you away and you're amazed, it may be a different trick than what the audience thinks it is.

[Bill Maher]

I don't see this as a trick. A trick involves a prop like blood from a stone.

[Penn Jillette]

No.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, no. This is just mental telepathy.

[Penn Jillette]

But you're making. You're making. I think.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know.

[Penn Jillette]

You're making a. A mistake. That Is pretty important.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

While you were going to college, while you were doing all the things you were doing, learning to be funny, learning to write jokes, learning to deliver jokes, other people were working on other things. You know, I will bump into.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah. I just don't get the infrastructure, the college you go to to learn how you could ever learn how to do that. I'm sorry.

[Penn Jillette]

But maybe I do know. If you want to learn to do that, I can point you where you need to go.

[Bill Maher]

Just give me a little something to hang it on. Like again a person the guy has never met.

[Penn Jillette]

But what you're asking me to do, Bill, is you're asking me to tell you in two and a half minutes how to go out and do an hour stand up show.

[Bill Maher]

No, it is exactly the same. No, because I know how. Because I know how my stand up act got in my head. I want to know how what's in that lady's head in the audience.

[Penn Jillette]

If you can control the question, you don't have to worry about the answer they're making.

[Bill Maher]

If it's Rob Schminckes, if it's that

[Penn Jillette]

specific, they're making you ask a different question, which is how they got in that head.

[Bill Maher]

But.

[Penn Jillette]

And that's you. They've already lost the bat. What I'm saying is maybe, maybe the only time this has ever happened happened when you saw it with Barbra Streisand. I'm just saying I've seen that same effect and I've seen that.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, because it's another guy who has this if. If this is what it is.

[Penn Jillette]

But it's not.

[Bill Maher]

Well, you say it's not, but you're not giving me anything.

[Penn Jillette]

But you say it is and you're not giving me anything.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not saying it is.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay.

[Bill Maher]

I'm saying my mind is open, which I'm sure is some disappointing to some people who are like, well, Bill, you made religionless. I thought you were like logical. I am logical. That means open. And in religious, by the way, I don't say there is no God. I say I preach the gospel of I don't know. I don't think there is the most

[Penn Jillette]

important three words in science. I don't know.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know. Exactly.

[Penn Jillette]

And that is what makes science before absolutely science starts. I don't know is never said. Kings don't say I don't know. Religious figures don't see I don't know, I don't know. Are the three words of the key to everything.

[Bill Maher]

Absolutely.

[Penn Jillette]

And that's the Brilliant thing about you, dealing with religion. And that is, by the way, what atheists say.

[Bill Maher]

Right. But like, I don't know how this guy does this trick. And again, maybe. Should we clear out what he's. Now, again, I'm remembering this from like 8 years ago and very vaguely, but he is on stage with a whiteboard. He talks to someone in the audience. Hi. We never met. Absolutely not. I'm convinced of that. And you've been feeling whatever lately. Okay, anybody could be. I'm getting a. It's about a friend. Yes. It's a male. Yes. High school. Yes. And then he writes the name down. I mean, I don't know where he' swhere, this trail begins for him. You're not helping me with that.

[Penn Jillette]

The fact that you don't know how something happens does not make it supernatural.

[Bill Maher]

I agree.

[Penn Jillette]

Explain to me how a refrigerator works.

[Bill Maher]

I could, though. I absolutely could study up.

[Penn Jillette]

And you can study up and learn this too.

[Bill Maher]

I took Physics for Poets my sophomore year in college. And by the end of the term there was one great shining day when I could derive for you. E equals MC squared. It took the whole semester to get there, but I understood it as we did it.

[Penn Jillette]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

And I couldn't remember one thing about it.

[Penn Jillette]

Now let me tell you something that might illuminate this that I do know. Because I wasn't there and I can't talk you through. I don't know who it was, but I can tell you this. There was faith healers were doing a lot of faith healing. And there was one trick they were doing, and I will use that word, that amazing Randy, you know, my dear friend. Yes.

[Bill Maher]

The great debunker could not figure out,

[Penn Jillette]

no idea how to figure it out. And that was the healing. People in wheelchairs get people up on stage with wheelchairs. He would say, get up, dance.

[Bill Maher]

That's the power of. I mean like.

[Penn Jillette]

No, I'm going to tell you the trick. I'm trying to explain it to you. When you arrive at the theater, they

[Commercial Announcer]

had

[Penn Jillette]

50, 25 non matching wheelchairs. And when someone came in who was limping or with a cane or their family was helping them, a very, very nice person said to them, would you like to sit in a wheelchair? Would that make it easier? And they wheeled them down toward the front. And when it came time to heal, all the things you say about me,

[Bill Maher]

okay, the world is full of charlatans. We agree. And much of this. But that works would be Charlotte, because

[Penn Jillette]

nothing is lying, right? Have you ever danced like that before? Have you ever felt that? Throw that wheelchair away. Do you need that wheelchair? No, I don't.

[Bill Maher]

I get. But that's okay. But it's a very different thing. Yes. That exists in the world. It's nothing to do with the thing I presented.

[Penn Jillette]

Yes, it is. It's exactly the same.

[Bill Maher]

No, it's not. It's not. It's not at all.

[Penn Jillette]

Let me tell you.

[Bill Maher]

It's not. That's a cheap trick. That is understandable. And the other thing is not understandable. And you can't. Well, if it is to you. Again, you're giving zero.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay, let me give you more.

[Bill Maher]

And maybe that's because you're protecting the magic. But again, I don't think it's really a magic trick.

[Penn Jillette]

Do you want. But it is. And I can tell you more.

[Bill Maher]

Tell me how he. Yeah, he does it.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay. He has never met that person before.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

Ever. One way you could do that, that gives you the exact effect you're talking about, is for a nice usher to say to people, you know, that the psychic's gonna be performing tonight. What kinds of things are you concerned about? And you're done. And it works. And they will never, ever admit that because it's not part of their reality.

[Bill Maher]

Because they have down to the boyfriend specific name.

[Penn Jillette]

Yes. Yes.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. I feel like he would have gotten busted by that. Like the lady would have. The magician. The psychic who's gonna bust him. The girl.

[Penn Jillette]

The girl who said she believes it.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. But she could. If it was me, I would have said after the show to somebody. Oh, well, you know, I did tell that to the usher.

[Penn Jillette]

And what is the forum you say that on?

[Bill Maher]

I don't know, Pen. There's no place anyone could put out material these days. If you only had some sort of Internet or some sort of social media where you could.

[Penn Jillette]

And it would be out there. And it is out there.

[Bill Maher]

I've never seen.

[Penn Jillette]

No, you haven't looked for it.

[Bill Maher]

That's true. I haven't looked for it. Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

Let's find these people busted everywhere.

[Bill Maher]

Maybe that's right.

[Penn Jillette]

But I'm not saying that's how they did it, because there's a bunch of other ways.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, so.

[Bill Maher]

But. Okay, but at least you gave me something. What you're saying to me is, he does need some confederate.

[Penn Jillette]

Not necessarily. But in this particular story. Yes.

[Bill Maher]

I don't see how I.

[Penn Jillette]

You have.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

You can also do, for instance, you can also do people filling out forms that they keep with them. That's a very common thing, filling out forms. You can just say to somebody to help focus your thoughts, write it down. This piece of paper. Don't let me see it. Cover it up. I'm never going to look at that. Keep that in your pocket, hold it close to your heart, and you're done.

[Bill Maher]

What about. Okay, let's move on to ghosts.

[Penn Jillette]

Goats. There's the fainting goats that I.

[Bill Maher]

Now, I know many very intelligent people who are not religious.

[Penn Jillette]

Why do you say intelligent in this at all? That doesn't mean anything.

[Bill Maher]

Well, okay. Well, because they are.

[Penn Jillette]

But anybody can make a mistake.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, I'm just. Let me get to the question.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay, let me get to the question.

[Bill Maher]

So, I mean, there many people over the years who, again, not drunk, not stupid, say, have some sort of experience, like with what you would call a ghost. Like they moved into a house and they just, you know, it would be an odor or a little rush of air would go past them. Certainly there are places who. People who say they see furniture move across the room. You know, the Comedy Store is supposedly haunted and that. What's that?

[Penn Jillette]

I have no idea. But why are you jumping?

[Bill Maher]

I'm not jumping. I'm asking.

[Penn Jillette]

But if you take ghost out of that and tell me that someone went into their home and their furniture moved, why are you giving an explanation? Why aren't you stopping? And I don't know.

[Bill Maher]

I am saying I don't know.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay, then we're done, right? When you say people have seen ghosts, you're making this jump.

[Bill Maher]

Well, they've seen. They have some sort of experience. It's not. Sometimes it is visual, but I certainly have heard it more to be like something like a brief brush. I mean, I know someone who once said they moved into an apartment and they would feel this odd, and it wasn't. And very often these presences don't seem to be particularly malevolent. Sure, they just live there. And she said, but one day she just went, get the fuck out of here. And she yelled at the ghost and she never felt it again. But I don't know.

[Penn Jillette]

But see, the problem is your question contains the assumption. If you say to me someone's feeling something rubbing against their head. They felt when they moved in this apartment, they felt it over and over again. They y, get the fuck out of here. And you say, why did that happen? And I say, I don't know. You're the one who said that was a ghost thing.

[Bill Maher]

I'm just saying, let's call it phenomenon.

[Penn Jillette]

No, let's call it.

[Bill Maher]

There's a phenomenon that the vernacular would Be ghosts, Some sort of spirit, Some sort of something. I personally have never experienced any.

[Penn Jillette]

But you're also clumping those things together.

[Bill Maher]

I'm just saying it's odd to me that people who are otherw use that proviso for you otherwise intelligent and under cross examination will tell you, I know I wasn't dreaming and I certainly wasn't drunk. And is it a hallucination?

[Penn Jillette]

No.

[Bill Maher]

We don't know.

[Penn Jillette]

There's nothing you're saying that I disagree with even slightly. And if you say, can you explain these? My answer is no. If you say, can anyone explain this? My answer is no.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Penn Jillette]

My only moment is when you say, well, then it was a ghost. How about you say, well, then we don't know, and then we're done.

[Bill Maher]

That's all I know.

[Penn Jillette]

Okay?

[Bill Maher]

When I go, I don't know if I want to be cremated. Because, you know, if they just keep your something around, they could maybe bring you back with AI in the future, you know, not that maybe. That wouldn't be.

[Penn Jillette]

Although you're trivial on AI. They've got plenty of you talking, recording.

[Bill Maher]

They've got what?

[Penn Jillette]

They've got plenty recorded of you talking.

[Bill Maher]

So they don't need me.

[Penn Jillette]

They don't need you. They can do. They can do an AI Bill Maher like that. You know, we're doing an AI of Gilbert Godfrey that we've been playing around with. It's pretty fast.

[Bill Maher]

That's his painting there.

[Penn Jillette]

I know. I miss him all the time.

[Bill Maher]

That was Jerry. That was Scott Carter. Got that for me from the Jerry Lewis telethon. That was outside Jerry's door. Is that. Isn't that awesome? Jerry's.

[Penn Jillette]

And it's certainly true. It's so Jerry needed time to dress, think, and rest. There's just no doubt that he did. He needed more time.

[Bill Maher]

It's so.

[Penn Jillette]

To dress, think, and rest than the rest.

[Bill Maher]

It's so Vegas. Not that I don't. I was just there.

[Penn Jillette]

Did you ever do the telethon?

[Bill Maher]

Yes. And I have to tell you, I probably shouldn't even say this because I could probably get canceled, but. Okay. My opening joke was that I parked in the handicapped spot. It could have all ended for me that night. I mean, it was like.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, it has all ended for you three times and you still keep coming back.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I know, but talk about. I don't know if you. Charitably, you would say balls. Uncharitably, you would say, what a fucking idiot. I mean, talk about not reading the room.

[Penn Jillette]

And it's also. Those Two things are often indistinguishable.

[Bill Maher]

What? Balls. Oh, absolutely. Yes.

[Penn Jillette]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

No, absolutely.

[Penn Jillette]

It just depends who happens to be

[Bill Maher]

talking at that moment and how it's taken. Jerry. I mean, he could have been worse, but I just figured, like, everyone's always sort of tiptoeing around them.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

You know, just. They probably want to laugh, too. I was wrong about that, but that's what I figured. Sure, sure.

[Penn Jillette]

That's the thinking.

[Bill Maher]

That was the thinking that went into it. And then I saw a ghost. No.

[Penn Jillette]

It's really interesting to feel evolutionary love, you know?

[Bill Maher]

Such a great way to put it. I've never heard it that way. That really. I mean, again, it's just not moving the needle on me. But it's such a great way to put it.

[Penn Jillette]

There's no reason you need to.

[Bill Maher]

Evolutionary love. Right you are.

[Penn Jillette]

It's not a decision. I get it, and that's fascinating.

[Bill Maher]

You mean you're compelled to do it. It's a calling.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, no, it's just. It's like hunger. There's no control over it. You care about these beings a tremendous amount.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Well, because they're, as you say, evolutionary. They're an extension of you in a way no other person can be.

[Penn Jillette]

Right. And we would not have survived this far if our children were able to get us to kill them.

[Bill Maher]

If what?

[Penn Jillette]

If our children were able to get us to kill them, we would not be here.

[Bill Maher]

Because they're so annoying.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. I mean, they try. They try. And we have this love built into us that we can't control.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Penn Jillette]

But believe me, if we could control it, it would be the end of the race.

[Bill Maher]

Because they're that annoying.

[Penn Jillette]

Sure.

[Bill Maher]

Of course. I agree. That's why I don't have them. I just. My hat is off to any parent today, really, because I think it's never been harder because you're not allowed to boss them around the way you. You know, and you should be able to boss around children because they're. There's children because they're just stupid.

[Penn Jillette]

Like, I'll just. I'll just tell you, if you want really clear advice on raising children.

[Bill Maher]

I don't.

[Penn Jillette]

You have to talk to someone who doesn't have children.

[Bill Maher]

Really.

[Penn Jillette]

You have to. Because anyone that has children. That's what I'm saying. You were just giving advice, and I was commenting on that by saying the fact that you have an understanding means you don't have children.

[Bill Maher]

People that have children go, well, the polling always says. And it's kind of depressing, but it does say. What people say, at least Americans say, is, I love my children, but if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't. Which I feel is kind of an indictment on your love of your children.

[Penn Jillette]

There's no doubt about it.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah,

[Penn Jillette]

it's a very, very complex situation.

[Bill Maher]

I think that's more of a comment on Americans or, you know, we are such a successful civilization for all the problems we have and the complaining that goes on. And I understand a lot of it, but a lot of it is just a lack of historical perspective at how bad things could be, how bad, how much worse they were for almost everybody who ever lived.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, you just fell into that trap when you said it's harder to raise children now. It was harder with.

[Bill Maher]

It was, but harder in the sense that people just expected it to be hard also. And now people have children, they're like, oh my God, I can't go to the club. I've got this mewling brat that I have to take care of. I think a lot of it is that life got so cushy and children interrupt that.

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[Penn Jillette]

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[Penn Jillette]

Children, children, children, do interrupt that. It's, it's interesting that you have this complete love, and yet it's a, it's a love hate. Difficult task. It's a very difficult task.

[Bill Maher]

It is.

[Penn Jillette]

And you, you've, you've, you've made the decision for whatever reason that you want to take on this task and that responsibility is overwhelming and crushing. And I think that when you start to realize that you're going to have moments, especially when the pollster is interrupting you, going, yeah, I wish I didn't have. You know, because there's a lot of parenting that has been going up here.

[Bill Maher]

Right, I'm sure there is.

[Penn Jillette]

And, and that's okay. You know, we choose all the time to have life experiences that.

[Bill Maher]

So you must feel awesome now because you're almost at the end of the.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, no, I have friends who have children that are 40 years old and it's still hard, you know.

[Bill Maher]

Well, that's bad parenting then. Yeah, sure, you gotta prepare them.

[Penn Jillette]

But here's the thing, Bill, that this was an argument. One of the things that Americans have done is turned having children into a narcissistic experience. Because you think even when you said that's bad parenting, my responsibility for my children is keeping them alive, feeding them and loving them. Beyond that, I have very little control. And this argument, it's poetic, it's not a deep intellectual argument. This argument changed my whole view on everything. If parents are so important to their children, why don't immigrants, children have accents? Say that again when someone comes over here. First generation American, Yes. Their children are born, they have heavy accents. They don't speak English. Well, the children do not have accents, and yet they're learning the language from their parents. Supposedly they're learning all the words from their parents, and yet it is.

[Bill Maher]

But they're also in American society, so they get both. That's. They're bilingual.

[Penn Jillette]

My point is. Well, they're not all bilingual.

[Bill Maher]

Most second generation are because again, as you say, they hear the old language. This is Italians, everybody in the home

[Penn Jillette]

from the parents, but they don't have the accents. And that really shows you how important society is. And so, you know, they did huge. A lot of information on Dylan Klebol,

[Bill Maher]

Colorado school shooters, trench coat murderers in the very Columbine. The very first school shooting.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, not, not actually. But yes, the one we know about and we talk about and they've done a lot of research and those parents were really good. They're really good parents.

[Bill Maher]

Everything we, everything we heard about the Columbine school shooting was wrong at first. They were not unpopular.

[Penn Jillette]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

You know, it was, it's, it's much more of a befuddlement. Why they did that.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, that's the fact is, anyone that says anything about school shooters we know is lying because we don't have enough data points. If you have 100 people out of a sample of 350 million, you can't know anything.

[Bill Maher]

The brain is just not In a good place. When you're that age, it's just. It's amazing. More shit doesn't happen.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, I'll tell you something.

[Bill Maher]

It's so stupid and that. I think that's just what that is. They just, you know, weren't really, like, thinking ahead.

[Penn Jillette]

That is. You saw that.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, it is amazing. And women, of course, much better at this. The difference between A woman of 19, 20, 21 and 25 is night and day. And believe me, I know. I've done extensive research on this. Whereas for a man 20 to 25, almost the same idiot, almost. And even up to much higher years, I hate to admit, but truly.

[Penn Jillette]

And we can also speak not only of statistics, but also of personal experience.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I mean.

[Penn Jillette]

I mean, I was.

[Bill Maher]

I need to.

[Penn Jillette]

I still am, but I was quite a knucklehead, me.

[Bill Maher]

We all must. I certainly know I was. And for many years past, when you think, oh, you should be mature by then, I mean, I remember being. I was in a long. The longest relationship I've had in my mid-30s. And when I got out of it, I was 37. And I remember thinking, oh, gosh, I'm too old to date. You know, it was like, no, you're just. You're not even ready to date. You're still such a dick. You know, not a dick, but, like, just doing stupid things. Just still not really getting how to be around women in the best way for them.

[Penn Jillette]

But also you have, you know, as a friend of mine said, no matter how bad high school was for you, when you go through it the second time with your children, it's worse. Really? Yeah, it's a really tough time. I mean, as much as you remember how tough. 17 and 18, it can't be anything

[Bill Maher]

like it when we were in high school because there was no social media, there was no phones.

[Penn Jillette]

But that doesn't.

[Bill Maher]

That has to change everything.

[Penn Jillette]

Everything but the anxiety angst is what's causing it. What you think is causing it changes. But it's a tough time to be a human being.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I had so much more anxiety from, say, well, from birth to, I don't know, mid-20s, but especially school. There was no day where I didn't go off to school without a knot in my stomach. I seem to remember high school, grade school, you know, just if you're not like one of the cool, you know,

[Penn Jillette]

and yet we find out as we grew up, and when you talk to those cool ones, they weren't having a good time either.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know about that. I think the cool kids in my school were having a great time because they were the cool kids. I mean, I don't know how they got there. I guess some of it was they were better looking or, I don't know, just.

[Penn Jillette]

Richard, no one better looking than you.

[Bill Maher]

Ben Richer. What made some sort of confidence that just human beings just sort of sense and they make that the alpha. Certainly I didn't have that. I had no confidence. Super shy and like just trying to survive, you know, and sometimes not. But the cool kids, I think they were eating it up. I mean, they should have been.

[Penn Jillette]

I don't know what.

[Bill Maher]

Were you in high school? Were you not the. What?

[Penn Jillette]

I don't know.

[Bill Maher]

What group were you in?

[Penn Jillette]

When I was in high school, I was in, you know, I was quite an. I had the longest hair. I was the. I was the goofiest. And I was also the worst thing you could be in high school. I was a juggler.

[Bill Maher]

You were in the nutshell.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, I was in the nutshire. I spent all.

[Bill Maher]

I wasn't wrong.

[Penn Jillette]

Put me in the exact right chair.

[Bill Maher]

But were you had. Were you popular with girls?

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. Listen to that. Well, I wasn't. And if I, if some girl liked me, I was too shy to do anything.

[Penn Jillette]

I was talking. I'm still friends with my high school girlfriend. We were talking about that and we were saying.

[Bill Maher]

I wish I was.

[Penn Jillette]

We were saying to each other, we were saying, why was everybody else having trouble getting laid?

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Penn Jillette]

When we had each other? Yes. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Throughout all of high school?

[Penn Jillette]

Well, no, they were different girlfriends, but, you know.

[Bill Maher]

Different girlfriends. Oh my God. I had one. And when she dumped me, I've not to this day ever been sadder. To this day. So that's, that's why it's, you know, that brain that you have, you. It's just your brain is so bad and you have. You have access to adult things is the problem. So, I mean, I feel like I can't. I remember in.

[Penn Jillette]

You're pushing back adolescence. I mean, really, just 200 years ago, at 15, you'd be raising a family. I mean, that's the insane thing.

[Bill Maher]

200 years ago.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. We pushed adolescents. Oh, I see.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. Yes. Oh, God, yes.

[Penn Jillette]

I mean, we, we treat people. I mean, we're now going to directly contradict what we were just saying before. The other problem is. One problem is that people stay children until they're 27. The other problem is we treat people like their children until they're 27. So we're contradicting ourselves. And I Think both are true?

[Bill Maher]

I don't think so. We indulge it.

[Penn Jillette]

We really indulge it.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, we indulge it. And it's not good. It's funny because it's not good for anybody. It ruins the parents life because now you gotta worry about you should be free after 18 years. And it ruins the kid's life because they're not able to function on their own. Funny story about, oh, I don't know, six, seven years ago, a young lady I was seeing once said to me, and it just made me laugh out of the chair, she said, we kind of got into a really serious discussion about our passion. She said, I ran away from home when I was 18. I'm so glad you appreciate it. I said, honey, you cannot run away at 18. You're supposed to be gone by then. And that I felt like said it all. And of course she said it without irony. I mean, she really meant that.

[Penn Jillette]

I. I believe I understood this story. I don't even need it annotated in the least.

[Bill Maher]

You're so right.

[Penn Jillette]

And the hint was how hard I laughed at the exact right time.

[Bill Maher]

You're right. But I don't know. I'm glad you're happy. You seem like you're very happy.

[Penn Jillette]

Doing okay. I'm doing all right. You know, I. I left. I graduated on a plea bargain from high school. Didn't really graduate, really. And right after that, I left hitchhiking and I lived on the street juggling homeless for two years and called my mom and dad every day, called them collect every day.

[Bill Maher]

What do you mean living on the street? You had no home?

[Penn Jillette]

I had no home. I could have gone home to my parents at any moment. Any moment I could have gone home.

[Bill Maher]

Now that's the difference between our generation. I don't have quite nearly as dramatic a story as that, but I was miserable when I went off to college. Just wanted to put my tail between my legs and go home every day. I mean, I was ostracized in the dorm, you know, and so the. Whatever. It's so funny. I remember going off to college and you're thinking again in your stupid brain of 18, you're thinking, oh, I'm going to a completely new place where I can be a completely new person. I was loser in high school. I'm going to be James Bond in Ithaca, New York, because. And there was one kid who was going to Cornell from my high school. And I thought, hmm, I'm going to have to kill him because no one can be at Cornell who Knows of my past because now I'm James Bond. And of course you're the same. You have left nothing. And I mean, I wasn't there a month and I was ostracized again, which happened in high school. So I was miserable. And I so desperately wanted to get out of there, but I didn't. Because again, not to pat our generation on the back, but the pride of not going back home to the nest was even stronger than the misery.

[Penn Jillette]

What was your relationship with your parents like?

[Bill Maher]

Fine. And they would have been fine with me. I mean, I think they would have been disappointed. But I just. What I'm saying is we had something in us that was a little sterner. Which is funny because when we were kids, it was like, oh, you kids are so soft. But compared to these kids today, we're the fucking Marines.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. You know, I used to. I don't even understand it because I was, you know, I was, you know, sleeping in alleys and I was juggling to make money. And I was. I didn't have any place I lived, and yet I would call my mom, dad every day and say I'm doing great. And they were okay with me doing it.

[Bill Maher]

Where did you go to the bathroom?

[Penn Jillette]

Public restrooms or behind trees?

[Bill Maher]

Behind trees. Well, were you in the city?

[Penn Jillette]

I was all over this great country of ours. I hopped trains. Here's the problem, Bill.

[Bill Maher]

Like a ho. Yes. With a stick and a bundle tied to the end of the stick.

[Penn Jillette]

I had a backpack from L.L. bean, but I hopped to train. So here's the thing. I was a huge Bob Dylan fan. I read about Bob Dylan.

[Bill Maher]

That's no excuse.

[Penn Jillette]

I wanted to be like Bob Dylan. I didn't find out. I didn't find out for years later that Bob was lying. When Bob said he worked in the carnival, he was lying. I worked in the carnival. When Bob said he hopped trains, he was lying.

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Penn Jillette]

I hopped trains. Yeah. So the Bob Dylan. If you take that two years of Bob Dylan's life that talked about in the press releases, when his stuff came out, I lived it. Not Bob. Bob was from Hidden, Minnesota.

[Bill Maher]

Well, I like to think of it as. You lived it. For Bob Dylan.

[Penn Jillette]

For Bob. Yeah. And then I also made Bob not a lie. Cause somebody did it.

[Bill Maher]

Wow. So why did Bob lie?

[Penn Jillette]

Cuz the story of. I grew up in Hibbing from a dad who owned an appliance store and then went to University of Minnesota and dropped out and then went to New York. And now I got famous in 15 minutes, you know, because it was instant he got. He got successful. Wasn't very interesting.

[Bill Maher]

Well, also, I must say. And again, these are people. Let's put this in perspective. I love Dylan. I'm sure you love Bob Dylan. We're not trashing him. I really love John Lennon. There's a picture of him somewhere around here. But he also had a embroidered history. He's the one who wrote like Working Class Hero.

[Penn Jillette]

And he's a rich kid from Liverpool.

[Bill Maher]

He's not rich.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, he was called from Liverpool. He was.

[Bill Maher]

He was richer than the others. Yes, he had a very.

[Penn Jillette]

That's what rich means.

[Bill Maher]

No, it doesn't. I don't think so. I think rich means rich. You're rich now. You were poor then. No, I mean, it was.

[Penn Jillette]

He was well off.

[Bill Maher]

The others were real working class. Like the lowest sort of lowest gringo was the lowest kind of housing that you could have. And he had a much more middle class. They weren't rich. It was a little cottage house. But yes, it was more like in the suburbs. And he wasn't a working class hero.

[Penn Jillette]

No, he.

[Bill Maher]

There was. You know, Elvis Costello had the wicked line about him and his grace.

[Penn Jillette]

Was it a millionaire? Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Was it a millionaire? Oh, you know, it's. Yeah. Imagine. Wow. You know you're Elvis Costello.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, I just. I knew where I was going.

[Bill Maher]

You know the song I do. What song? What is it called? Oh, the Other side of Summer.

[Penn Jillette]

Oh, it is the other side of Summer.

[Bill Maher]

The other side of Summer. Perfect for this time of year.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, I might have.

[Bill Maher]

What a poet. This first line. The sun struggles up. Another beautiful day. The sun struggles up like. Not all lyricists in rock and roll are poets, you know, like they don't write quite like poets. That's. Yeah. Was it a millionaire who said, imagine no possessions? A poor little schoolboy who said, we don't need no lessons. That's a shot at Pink Floyd.

[Penn Jillette]

He certainly is.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. And we don't need no education. I beg to differ.

[Bill Maher]

Right. But. So you were a. A corny and a. And a bum. So interesting.

[Penn Jillette]

I would go. I would get hungry and I would do shows to try to get money on the street by juggling.

[Bill Maher]

And so the.

[Penn Jillette]

And I would do stand up in bars and anything I could do.

[Bill Maher]

So the.

[Penn Jillette]

But all I needed to do was make, you know, five bucks a day. You can do the street juggling.

[Bill Maher]

So hapless civilians who encountered you would give you small chains to make you go away.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, I was actually did a pretty good juggling show by the time I got to be 20 I had a really great street show.

[Bill Maher]

I was just gonna say, don't street show guys like that make a lot of money?

[Penn Jillette]

The amount that I made would knock you over.

[Bill Maher]

Then why were you living in the alley?

[Penn Jillette]

Because that was two years after when I learned to do that.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I see.

[Penn Jillette]

Then I was living in a great place.

[Bill Maher]

See, at least when I.

[Penn Jillette]

When I went. When I went, I was working streets in Philadelphia, down at the Head House Square, and I was juggling for money, and I was making a lot because I was doing three to $500 a show, and I was doing five shows a day, and I was working Friday, Saturday and Sunday. So I went to an accountant, tax guy, and I said to him, I said to him, you know, I'm making all this money and it's all in cash. Shouldn't I be paying taxes? And he said, how much money are you making? And I was. I kept notes and everything. Still have every. Every dime I made at every street show was written down. I showed him all that, and he said, this is the amount of money you say you make juggling on the street? I said, yes, it is. He said, if you bring this to the irs, they're going to think you're a drug dealer. And then he paused and said, I think you're a drug dealer.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, you need a stripper accountant.

[Penn Jillette]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

They can tell you how to hide cash.

[Penn Jillette]

I just had. I had so much cash. I mean, I was absolutely in the stripper market. I mean, we just had boxes of cash.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, my God. I did not. I mean, my version of. You were living on the.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, you were a drug dealer.

[Bill Maher]

I was a drug. Exactly. I was a drug dealer. Well, a pot dealer. I would. In college, we sold whatever our dealer had, which was, quite frankly, everything except heroin. I never dealt heroin, and I'm proud of that. But when I got to New York, I mean, I also.

[Penn Jillette]

Me neither.

[Bill Maher]

I also would have been on the street, except I got a rent free situation, which was, you could find this in the back of the Village Voice, and you were. Did something for somebody. The first two interviews I went on, I realized after way too long, I was being interviewed by an old queen who wanted me to do something that I did not want to do. And I finally got a place on the Upper east side, living with an ambassador. And I had to fucking be the basic au pair for his kids. And I fucking hate kids. It might have been better to be on the street, but that's what I did. I took the fucking kids to school

[Penn Jillette]

who would hire You. Who the fuck. Whoever. This ambassador, I mean, put him in jail.

[Bill Maher]

Now I know. No, I was a good actor, I guess. I mean, I convinced them. And I was supposed to speak French to them, and I didn't really do that, but I brought them to school, I picked them up, I took them to their stupid activities. I was supposed to be. Look, it didn't. Nothing bad happened, but they were, I think, a little disappointed. They were expecting someone who was going to be more engaged with the kids, but they wanted someone who was more

[Penn Jillette]

engaged than you would be with the kids. I mean, let me take that in from.

[Bill Maher]

But they wanted a guy because they wanted someone who could bodyguard them. You know, they didn't want.

[Penn Jillette]

When I think bodyguard, you're the top of the list. Whether. I'll tell you, hey, those kids were never kidnapped.

[Bill Maher]

I respect you, and this was a controversial country.

[Penn Jillette]

I respect you as much as anybody, but I would never hire you as bouncer, bodyguard, or au pair. Those are three jobs you will not get from Ben Jillette. Okay? If you are completely destitute and you call up your buddy Penn, I might be able to give you some coin. I might be able to hire you. But those are not three jobs you will get. Got it?

[Bill Maher]

You're so right.

[Penn Jillette]

Write it down.

[Bill Maher]

You're so right. Now. You're so right.

[Penn Jillette]

I could add a few more. We'll stay with those three.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not a bodyguard, and I wasn't an au pair, but they wanted, I guess, a man to take their kids and watch over them. And they were never once kidnapped or killed. And this is New York City, and I was always there, even though it was very early in the morning and I had barely gotten to sleep yet coming home from the clubs. But it was on the Upper east side. I could walk to the Comic Strip and I could walk to Catch a Rising Star, and I did. And I was like the Lincoln of comedy. I always. I would walk miles to borrow a Jewel joke. But, you know, I don't know. Would it. Would it be great to be young again? Yeah, but not to deal with that shit. To deal with the things we dealt with. You have to be young. I mean, why do you think they put them in the Army? You need someone who is. Who is able physically and mentally to put up with just really rough conditions that we. I mean, we wouldn't survive at this time in our life.

[Penn Jillette]

Are you telling me that you and I wouldn't do great in Marine boot camp? Is that what you're claiming?

[Bill Maher]

Or living or sleeping in an alley or dealing with children.

[Penn Jillette]

I couldn't get him to disagree with me too much on go. So I'll go this week and go into boot camp thing, see if he'll disagree with me there.

[Bill Maher]

So what do you think your 70s are going to be like? What do you think? Think like you're 69, by the way. I'll be 69 next year. So we're very close. And it's funny, this has come up a couple of times in conversation. Whenever you say 69, everybody has the same reaction, like, oh, you know, elbow in their ribs, as if anyone ever really did 69. It's the most overrated sex position. It's the fucking Betamax of fucking. Everybody tried it once, they didn't like it. It, it's impossible to do. I tried it, you know, and I couldn't do it.

[Penn Jillette]

I could stick up for it a little bit. I've enjoyed many times. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Well, once again you have qualities I, I lack.

[Penn Jillette]

I, I, I have enjoyed it. It's different for me because I'm taller than you.

[Bill Maher]

Well, I wasn't suggesting we do it together.

[Penn Jillette]

I'm just telling you it would be different because I'm taller than, I mean,

[Bill Maher]

I remember asking some guest, some woman guest I had here, I can't remember who it was. I said, if a guy is doing the Alphabet, can you tell, like, can you tell what letter this is?

[Penn Jillette]

Kafka's in the penal colony, right? Kafka's short story in the penal colony.

[Bill Maher]

I know the story.

[Penn Jillette]

The prisoners don't know what crime they've committed till they etch it into their back. So you could.

[Bill Maher]

Till they what?

[Penn Jillette]

Till they etch it with needles in the prisoner's back. That's how they find out. What they're guilty of is being able to feel it in their back. So what you're saying is this is the oral sex equivalent. You can do messages that way. Probably more efficient than needles in the back.

[Bill Maher]

Anybody who can make that analogy to Kafka does not belong in the nut chair. That's all I'm going to say. I'm going to change your chair.

[Penn Jillette]

It's all you have now. You only have the nut chair. You have devolved.

[Bill Maher]

Right? Who wants anything but the nutshell?

[Penn Jillette]

I know, I know, but it's, the whole story is not about the nutshell. It's about the kindness in your face.

[Bill Maher]

But I mean, one thing about you, you were always just interesting, like, well, that's an interesting guy. That's why we wanted you on the show. You know, like, that's a guy who's always thinking about stuff. I don't have to agree, but mostly I do. I mean, I feel like we really have come around to very similar ways. I mean, we're both athe.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, well, when you come, when you're able. The idea that I would even Entertain animal rights 10 years ago was really totally outside.

[Bill Maher]

What do you have against animals?

[Penn Jillette]

Nothing against animals. I just thought, I mean, the very simple answer. If you'd asked me for a facile answer to that, I would say, first, have every child on earth fed, clothed, sheltered and eating. And then we'll all work together on the mountain gorillas. That's no longer. No, don't say Shut up. I did shut up. I just told you I changed my mind from this point of view, and you just said you should change your mind.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Penn Jillette]

You've already won.

[Bill Maher]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Penn Jillette]

Me too.

[Bill Maher]

Me too. You never got me too, did you?

[Penn Jillette]

Only, Only by the grace of God. I didn't.

[Bill Maher]

No. You're a nice guy. You never did bad with women.

[Penn Jillette]

No. No.

[Bill Maher]

I didn't realize you were such a cathode in the beaker when you were young.

[Penn Jillette]

You know, I, I, I'll tell you. I will now give you the secret to getting laid in high school.

[Bill Maher]

It's a little late, pal.

[Penn Jillette]

I know, I know. Fuck Smart girls.

[Bill Maher]

I could have. I wish I could have had the courage. Yes. To at least just react to the girls. There was a couple of girls who were sweet on me, like, if I could have just reacted to it, I couldn't even do that.

[Penn Jillette]

We are about the same age.

[Bill Maher]

Yes.

[Penn Jillette]

It was the girl with the baggy black sweater and hair parted in the middle, carrying around Henry Miller. Believe me, under that sweater, everything was beautiful.

[Bill Maher]

No, there was a girl. There was a girl so long ago, in 8th, was it 8th grade? And there was a Sadie Hawkins dance, which you asked. And she asked me out to this thing and I still couldn't say yes.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, well, that's. Yeah. Boy, that's sad. All I'm doing today is agreeing with you.

[Bill Maher]

I made up for it. But I mean, it is, I mean, youth is just so hard. I mean, it's. I understand, like, why people in many cultures, for most of human history and somewhat into today, have many, many children because they anticipate that a fair number will not make it because they're just so fucking dumb.

[Penn Jillette]

In agriculture, the more children you have, the better it is.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. Because three of them are going to get kicked by a horse.

[Penn Jillette]

But also they help around the farm. Once you get out of agriculture, children are just a liability, Right?

[Bill Maher]

I've always said that children are just

[Penn Jillette]

a liability because you're not a farmer. Is that correct?

[Bill Maher]

I am not a farmer.

[Penn Jillette]

If you were a farmer, you might see it differently.

[Bill Maher]

I've got one crop out there that I think qualifies, is I'm not really the farmer around here. But it is growing well. But, yeah. So when you're, like, married with kids, I always hear about, like, date night.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Is that a thing? I, I, I like when you heard about a specific.

[Penn Jillette]

We try to do that a little bit, but the truth is, I am always lucky. We grab whatever time we can.

[Bill Maher]

My other question about marriage is always, like, how do you know when to do it? Like, if you can always do it? Like, for me, sex always had to be an event. Like, how? Always had trouble with that. Like, how can it be an event if it's ever present? You know, like, how do you know when to throw down?

[Penn Jillette]

I think we, we really. I was thinking about if I built a time machine, killing Hitler, buying Microsoft. Now I think it's going back and talking to you in eighth grade. I think that is what I would do. I think that from the future, Pebb would appear and say, listen, Bill, let's talk about the Sadie Hawkins dance. Cause this is gonna have repercussions for the rest of your motherfucking life.

[Bill Maher]

Butterfly effect. Yeah, exactly. Possibly you get me late in high school, and I'm telling you, no problems in Gaza. Bird flu is now wiped out the whole world. Or no problems in Gaza. Yeah. It could have happened.

[Penn Jillette]

We don't know. So that's what I would do now. Let Hitler live. Go back and help Bill.

[Bill Maher]

I did a joke in last week's monologue I thought was, like, such a combination of the old and what's the newest? Like, because I'm always doing Johnny Carson in my monologue, and I don't usually do it's so hot. But it was the first day of summer, you know, so. And there was some funny one so hot yesterday that Jew haters were protesting without the mask. It was like a Johnny beginning and then an ending he would never do.

[Penn Jillette]

You don't think Johnny would do that?

[Bill Maher]

Jew haters. No, you did that, Joe.

[Penn Jillette]

Was that I have a story that's sadder. Sadder than your story of eighth grade, Sadie Hawkins?

[Bill Maher]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Jillette]

It's horrible.

[Bill Maher]

It's Tonight show story.

[Penn Jillette]

What's that?

[Bill Maher]

A Tonight show story?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

It's terrible. Johnny Carson asked us to go on the Tonight show, or we were, you know, Fred whenever asked us to go on the Tonight show, and we were going to do the Water tank, where I'm doing a card trick and tell her drowns in the water tank.

[Bill Maher]

I think I've seen that.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah, we did it billion times.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Penn Jillette]

So it's a great trick. We did it first on Saturday Night Live so we could do it on Carson. And to me, because I was an idiot, the most important part was leaving. Tell her, dad. So I can't find the card. I can't find the card. It's a signed card. And the night Teller drowns, I turn around his dead body, and then on his face is the signed card miracle, and he's still dead. So we said, I'm gonna say Johnny. But it wasn't a direct conversation with Johnny. We said to the Johnny people, we'll leave Teller dead and go to the break. And they got back to us and said, johnny says he wants you to open the tank. Teller comes out. He waves. We go to commercial break. I said, it's not funny if Teller isn't dead. Going to commercial break. And they said, johnny does not want to go to commercial break with Teller dead. I said, teller's not dead. It's a trick.

[Bill Maher]

And he's a magician. Johnny Carson's the most famous. I started as a magician guy.

[Penn Jillette]

He just said, for this show, we don't want to go to commercial with a dead guy. So we said. He said, this is my show. And we said, this is our trick.

[Bill Maher]

Wow.

[Penn Jillette]

So then they say, johnny says he really wants you on the show. He really doesn't want that on his show. So here's what he said to do. Jay Leno is filling in, hosting. Come on and do the trick exactly the way you want. So you have your integrity and I have mine.

[Bill Maher]

Great.

[Penn Jillette]

And we said, fabulous. And then we did it with Jay and changed the trick. You changed the trick because we couldn't ship the water tanks. We did a whole different trick. That would have been fine with Johnny and Johnny, we became friends after he retired.

[Bill Maher]

He's a magician. He loves it.

[Penn Jillette]

Yeah. And he's also. He's a skeptic. And although I think it's safe to say now you could say he was an atheist.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know, but he seems like the type.

[Penn Jillette]

He said it to me. He did, many times.

[Bill Maher]

So you were friends with him. That's awesome.

[Penn Jillette]

I called him up, and he called me up because he was A real fan of bullshit. He liked our show Bullshit.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I was, too.

[Penn Jillette]

And he called me up and he said, I just want to tell you, I think Bullshit is the best show on television.

[Bill Maher]

And I said to him, that's awesome.

[Penn Jillette]

You know, Johnny, I don't know if you knew this, but the Tonight show is also on television, and that was a better show. And from there, we became. I have another sad story that you can think about when you're lamenting the eighth grade. So we did the movie called the Aristocrats, which you were.

[Bill Maher]

Yes, of course.

[Penn Jillette]

And Johnny Carson loved the joke. And we were talking, and when we were working on the movie, I was calling Johnny and talking about the movie, which he would not be in because he was retired. And I didn't even. I never even asked him.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

And Johnny said to me, would you do me a favor? You're gonna go to Sundance. When you're done at Sundance, do you have a couple days? Can you fly down to LA and can you and Paul of Provenza, can you show me the Aristocrats in my home? And I said, joni, I can't think of a greater honor. And Paul and I were over the fucking moon. We're gonna do Sundance. We're gonna fly down and show it to Johnny, man. How beautiful will that be? And we did Sundance. It was very well received. The next morning, Provenz and I met at a Starbucks to have a hot chocolate to celebrate. Cause he's working with a child, so we don't go out drinking like grownups should do. So we're having a hot chocolate. And my phone rings, and I was gonna just ignore it. And it was Randy. Amazing Randy. And I said to Paul, well, it's Amazing Randy. He doesn't call me often. This might be important. And I pick up the phone and Randy is sobbing uncontrollably. Sobbing. And I say, randy, what is it? And he said, johnny died. Johnny. Johnny's dead. And I fucked up your weekend. I fucked up my weekend. And I said. I said, depaul, typical Johnny Carson died. And Benz. And I didn't say another word. He just went and added to the end of the movie for Johnny Carson.

[Bill Maher]

You know, next time a starving homeless guy asked me for change, I'm gonna tell him that story. I'm gonna say, buddy, we all have problems, and yours are not the worst. Yeah, I bet you Johnny was such a fan, because, you know, he was. He melded magic and comedy, which they not all do, which you guys probably did more than anybody.

[Penn Jillette]

I could I could.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, you were always that. I mean, that's why you have these records in Las Vegas is like, because you did something. You put a dimension to it and, you know, a wit to it.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, thank you.

[Bill Maher]

That, like, I don't know if you want to, like, talk about other magicians. I mean, I play in the David Copperfield Theater.

[Penn Jillette]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

When I play at the MGM Grand.

[Penn Jillette]

Now I play in the Penn and Teller Theater. Just. Just, Just. Just so you know.

[Bill Maher]

I understand.

[Penn Jillette]

Just so you know.

[Bill Maher]

No, I do understand. Right.

[Penn Jillette]

It's easier to find when your name is on it.

[Bill Maher]

But I've heard some of these magicians really phone it in.

[Penn Jillette]

Huh? Have you?

[Bill Maher]

And I'm sure. Do you have a club like, you do? No. Like.

[Penn Jillette]

Like. Oh, we all get together. You must come on.

[Bill Maher]

Because only you can kind of understand, really.

[Penn Jillette]

Like. Like every night, you and John Stewart and Dennis Miller just get together.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Penn Jillette]

That's.

[Bill Maher]

That's the threesome.

[Penn Jillette]

Well, that's a threesome you just suggested with.

[Bill Maher]

I understand.

[Penn Jillette]

I know, I know, I know. And I even. I even could map those three.

[Bill Maher]

What do you do? Like, I could never live in Las Vegas. I love it for a weekend. I was just there.

[Penn Jillette]

I don't gamble. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I go home and read. So it doesn't matter that I'm a doctor.

[Bill Maher]

It doesn't matter where you are.

[Penn Jillette]

Doesn't matter. I care less about where I am than anybody.

[Bill Maher]

How far is your commute from.

[Penn Jillette]

22 minutes.

[Bill Maher]

22 minutes. So you live out in Henderson?

[Penn Jillette]

Actually, the other side. Summerlin.

[Bill Maher]

Whatever it is. I could talk all night with you,

[Penn Jillette]

but it's about why we do this again.

[Bill Maher]

Too long. And it's been too long. And it's also been never. I know, because I never really. That's one reason I love this thing, is I get to talk to people and request people to come here so that I can get to know somebody. I just had Ray Romano here. Same thing. Somebody I should have been friendly. There just wasn't enough time.

[Penn Jillette]

They said, you've known bill for 33 years.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Penn Jillette]

Right. And then I said. And they said, how close are you to Bill? I said, I think we've talked about. Not on camera. 45 minutes.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah. And I say this also to many people who've been here recently. Jerry Seinfeld and I just said the same thing, but it's just the truth. Like, when do you talk to people when you're working?

[Penn Jillette]

That's all.

[Bill Maher]

We have to. You just said it before I work all the time. Like what compels us, what motivates us, what gets us to be in this situation, which we would love.

[Penn Jillette]

Gotta be working.

[Bill Maher]

Which we would love anyway, is that there's a camera in the the wall

[Penn Jillette]

and I'm going to be.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, okay. Great to see you.

[Penn Jillette]

Good to see you, Bill.

[Bill Maher]

Club Random.

[Penn Jillette]

Thanks.

[Bill Maher]

You're out of the nutsher.

[Penn Jillette]

Oh, good. Oh, good. But I'll be back in at another time, I hope.

[Bill Maher]

Club Random.

[Penn Jillette]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways

[Bill Maher]

to tell you that Mint's offer of

[Penn Jillette]

unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Bill Maher]

So I thought it would be fun

[Penn Jillette]

if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Commercial Announcer]

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