← Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley
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- [00:01]
Kale Lowry
I hate gift giving and receiving.
- [00:02]
Lindsay Chrisley
Receiving gifts is so weird. What do you say? Thank you.
- [00:05]
Podcast Announcer
This is Coffee convos with Kale Lowry and Lindsay Chrisley.
- [00:08]
Kale Lowry
I really want you to be in your feels, Kale.
- [00:11]
Lindsay Chrisley
That does not interest me whatsoever.
- [00:12]
Kale Lowry
I feel very attacked by you.
- [00:14]
Lindsay Chrisley
A spirited discussion about motherhood, friendship, family and life in the public eye.
- [00:19]
Kale Lowry
I'm just not with the fakery anymore.
- [00:21]
Lindsay Chrisley
There's a fakery bakery around here. Here's Kale and Lindsay. All right, you guys, welcome back to a new episode of Coffee couples podcast. I want record a disclaimer for anyone listening to this episode. All of our episodes with Lindsay up until this point have been pre recorded while I was in Atlanta. And so I'm coming to you guys directly to say I don't have enough details to speak on the full situation. I don't know where the case stands today. I 100% hope that Lindsay is okay and she's taking the time to heal and kind of sort of reevaluate whatever it is she's going to do next. I. I don't want to speak on something out of turn without knowing all the details. I was not there. I was not privy to information. I have not read articles. I don't want to jump the gun and say too much or too little. And I do want to continue today's episode as a regular episode with my friend Zach. He has been a makeup artist on and off for me for the past eight or nine years now. And so I would love to continue this episode with him and give Lindsay the space that she needs during this time. I think that right now I would love to have the support of you guys and just obviously wishing the best for Lindsay regardless of the situation. Nobody. I understand, nobody is perfect. And again, I don't want to speak out of turn. I have so much love for Lindsey. I never want to speak against her on here or anywhere. Doing my best to get through this situation. It's been a wild six months. Nothing could have prepared me. And honestly, I'm begging to redo 2024 and 2025 at this point. Like, I'm beg to redo them because this has been such a roller coaster. With that all being said, I hope you guys can just give me a little bit of grace. I do want to give you guys a. A still, you know, I still want to give you guys an episode. So Zach and I are going to discuss the nightmare upstairs, and I do have a little bit of a hot take on that. So before we get to that, I will Introduce my friend Z. Hello back. How are you? Good. I was just recording a little intro, and then I said that you were gonna come on the episode, and we were gonna talk about the Nightmare Upstairs. But before we do that, obviously, you've been my makeup artist. I say obviously. It's obvious to us. Yeah, but to anyone who doesn't know, Zach has been my makeup artist on and off for, like, eight or nine years.
- [02:57]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, I think so.
- [02:58]
Lindsay Chrisley
Is that okay?
- [02:59]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah.
- [03:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yeah. It's been a long time. I always like Lux's age because I feel like that's when I met Taylor. That's when I met Lindsay. That's when I met you. And so I feel like Lux is like my, like, walking anniversary child because he's, like, the kid that's. Same timing. Does that make sense?
- [03:17]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, I think it was right before you got pregnant with Creed.
- [03:25]
Lindsay Chrisley
Oh, okay, so a little less than eight years then, so maybe like. Maybe like seven.
- [03:30]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, it was a. It was a good amount of time right before you got pregnant.
- [03:35]
Lindsay Chrisley
Okay, well, did you. Did you watch the Nightmare Upstairs?
- [03:39]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I did last night.
- [03:42]
Lindsay Chrisley
Okay, we need to talk about it. I have a hot take and unpopular opinion.
- [03:47]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I think I do too.
- [03:48]
Lindsay Chrisley
So do you. Okay, so that actually makes me feel better. Okay, so for anyone who's listening to this, this is a spoiler. We're gonna talk about it. So if you have not seen it and you don't want to listen to this episode, turn it off until you go watch it. Giving you guys a second to do that. If you've already watched it or. I don't know. I. My hot take is this, and I did. For anyone who watched it, I did have Elliot. I texted Elliot, and I was like, hey, can you watch this and give me your thoughts? Because he's 16, so I'm like, I need to know kind of, like, where he's at. And it's so weird. And someone brought it up in book club last night. They were like, isn't it so weird that your kid is old enough to, like, share recommendations for, like, shows and movies? And it's such a weird. Like, it's. It feels so surreal. But. Okay, what is your hot take on it? Like, tell me what your thoughts are.
- [04:37]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
So I think that, like, I was. I was seeing a lot of people also agreeing with this that it was really hard to follow of, like, which. Whose side you're on. And, like, at the very beginning, obviously, like, when. When they said all of the allegations against the father, I obviously, I was like, well, him. That's Horrible. And then it. The way that it was narrated by like the grandma and the mom, it kept swaying me back and forth. So I. I got a little bit confused of like, whose side I was on, if that makes sense. Okay, wait, what. What were you.
- [05:14]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yeah. No.
- [05:14]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
What do you think?
- [05:18]
Lindsay Chrisley
I think the mom is batshit.
- [05:20]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Thank you. Okay, so the way that she was acting on tick tock was a little uncalled for, Zach.
- [05:29]
Lindsay Chrisley
Her tick tocks were so out of pocket.
- [05:32]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah.
- [05:32]
Lindsay Chrisley
It pissed me off because here's the thing. This just. It felt too close to home. And so I feel like I look at it from a different let through a different lens. Because of that, I. The dad put on desitin for a diaper rash. Because how many pedophiles do we see in the media every single day that don't ever. They're not, they're not disagreeing with their charges. They pretty much get on there, accept their fate, and they don't say anything. And then they go to prison, Right? Like, they're not putting out money for lawyers, hundreds of thousands of dollars, fighting for their kids, fighting in court. Right. Like they're. They basically admit it without admitting it. They don't say anything and they shut the up and they go to pray. They go to prison.
- [06:14]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Exactly.
- [06:15]
Lindsay Chrisley
So for me, I'm like, this is not typical behavior. The other thing that was interesting to me too is that the daughter, when that happened, was so young that it's possible that she could have been like, coerced by the mom. Like, the mom embellished and exaggerated it. I don't think the kids should be held at fault because they're doing what they think is right and they think what their mom has told them or embellished or elaborated on. They. They think that happened to them and they were probably too young, but why did it take years between. Also, I don't know about. I don't know enough about pedophilia and like, that kind of thing to know if someone who's into pedophilia, do they typically go boys and girls or is it. Or is it more so they're like gear. Like a certain pedophile might be geared towards little girls and a certain pedophile might be geared towards little boys. Like, how often do we hear of pedophiles that go after both?
- [07:13]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I mean, first of all, I think it's maybe a good thing that we don't understand that. That mentality.
- [07:18]
Lindsay Chrisley
Oh, yeah, sure. But I'm just saying, like, the discrepancies, and I know that A lot of people on social media were saying, well, what about the second wife? And here's my take on the second wife. If I was in that position, it would scare me half to death to be married and take the risk of being married and staying married to this person who was accused of these allegations. I think the allegations alone are enough to divorce somebody. And I understand that she was scared and maybe thought, because I'm thinking to myself, if that happened to me and I'm being accused of that and I'm talking to my partner, I would say, you know, make sure that you, like, let them know that I've only ever used desitin. Make sure, you know, like you say, I've only. You've always been in, like, you're so scared, you're operating out of fear that I'm like, I just don't, like there's something not right about the mom. And then the other thing too. Lincoln's 12, so kind of around the age that Ty was. If he and Lux or Lux and Elliot or. Sorry, if Lincoln and Elliot or Lincoln and Luck sort of barricade themselves in a room, if that's my house, I will knock my doors down because there's no reason why you need to, like, I'm not going to let someone drag you out of the house. Like, you don't need to, you don't need to barricade yourself in the room.
- [08:30]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I thought that's the part that I started realizing like, that something is weird, that she's like enabling that like barricading yourself in your room and sliding food under the door. And like then she started, when she started engaging in the tick tock when they were going live and she was making tick tocks about it from like the other perspective, it seemed like they were like running with it.
- [08:53]
Lindsay Chrisley
And then jp, Lily, I think his name was JP Lilly, had such a profound impact on Ty. And you could see in the footage that they played in the documentary how impacted Ty was. I think at that impressionable age, he was so thankful and excited to have somebody like JP be proud of him because. Because that's what he said. I'm proud of him or I'm proud of you. And that's JP's job, is to believe the children. And again, I'm not saying I don't believe the children. I think I believe what they believe. Right. Like, but with that being said, like, Ty being at such an impressionable age, every single therapist after JP was attached to JP in some way. And I think for that too, that Actually caused more damage than good. But there is a reason. And I'm not saying that the prison. I'm not saying that the judicial. Judicial system doesn't fail kids, because it does. I feel like it failed me. Right? Like, I think that happens. But there is a reason in this case in particular, that the officials and everybody did not side with the mom. And they did see parental alienation because nothing was substantiated. And then they were like, oh, the child protective services claims substantiated those claims. But if I remember correctly, the physical side of it all was not substantiated. It was just that they basically saying, like, they believe the kids because you're supposed to believe the kids as you should. But there was nothing. And, like, the entire thing just broke my heart because if you look at the footage of the kids when they were toddlers and small children, it. They were so lively and bubbly and they had a light in their eyes, and I felt like, wow, like, if that was what was happening to them at that time, would they look like that versus how they look now? Like, I feel like now they. The. The. I guess maybe the isolation of it all really has impacted their health, it looks like, and maybe their mental health and things like that. And it just makes me really nervous. All right. We all know starting something new isn't just hard. It's actually terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're not even entirely sure will work out. And it can be so hard to take that leap of faith. Trust me, I know that when we started this podcast and any of my businesses, I wasn't sure what I was doing. I never really do. But what if someone doesn't buy my products? What if nobody goes on my website? What if nobody checks my newsletter? But now I know that I was right and believing in myself and launching my podcasts and this business and all of the things. Despite all the fears and hesitations, it's so nice to know that Shopify is on my side. Okay. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United, United States, from household names like, I don't know, Gymshark and Skims to brands just getting started like coffee combos or barely Famous. And you can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates. Because Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. And you guys can get the word out. Like you have a marketing team behind you. You don't even need a budget for that because you can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are, whether they're scrolling or strolling. But best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. And if people haven't heard about you, Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. So don't forget about that. And if you get stuck, don't worry because Shopify is always around to share advice with you. They have award winning 24. 7 customer support, which is a game changer, especially for people like me who are not tech savvy. And I just want to say that it's time to turn those what ifs with Shopify today. Sign up today for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com coffee. Go to shopify.com coffee shopify.com coffee and then she ended up dropping the charges, didn't she? If that were me, I think, because obviously you don't know until you're in that position. If I know with out a shadow of a doubt, with 100 certainty that that happened to my kids, I would never drop the charges. You could not pay me to drop the charger.
- [13:18]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
So that, that was another.
- [13:19]
Lindsay Chrisley
And the fact that Ty also wanted to be emancipated from his mom as well. So that also leads me to believe like maybe at some point in the back of his head, maybe he is questioning what his mom has told him. I don't know.
- [13:36]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, the whole thing had me feeling weird watching it.
- [13:39]
Lindsay Chrisley
You're not really protecting your kids when you're willing to get on here and talk to talk about their potential sexual trauma if that was a thing. And they're still minors or at least she is. And you're on here. Not only are you talking about it on social media, you're also getting on a documentary and like reliving like, I don't know, like it just. There's just something not right about the mom. To me, everything that I'm saying is alleged. These are just my opinions. I believe the children. I'm just commenting on the specific documentary, but I believe the children believe that happened to them regardless of whether it actually happened or not or the mom was trying to create a parental alienation situation. The trauma is just horrendous. Like regard, like the allegations alone, whether it happened or not is traumatic. And to stay. I just cannot imagine a world where my kids are living barricaded in a room for 54 days. Like do you think that they actually came out of that room at any point because they had to have gotten a microwave. They. I think there was. Like, somebody was saying, how did you get a sandwich under the door? Like, Howard cut through the. Did they cut a hole through the door to get the mom to give them food? Like, what was going on?
- [14:48]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Ty said that he cut a hole into the bathroom so he could have access to the bathroom. And then his mom said that she was smashing sandwiches and sliding them under the door.
- [15:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
At no point did the mom think, you know what, this specific therapist is not working. This is not working. Let's get intensive there. Or inpatient treatment. Like, there had to have been other options and other routes compared with what they were given. Right. Like, I honestly think the mom failed the father. I mean, sorry. I think the mom failed the children just as much as everybody thinks the judicial system failed the children. Because every single therapist was involved with jp. Okay. You never thought to get someone completely removed or to put these kids in an inpatient? Like, I just. It is so hard for me to wrap my mind around. Like, I can't have you.
- [15:43]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Are you familiar with the reunification therapy? Like, were you. Have you heard of that before? This. This was the first I've heard of Re. Is that reunification therapy? Yeah. Yeah. So that was the first I've ever heard of it in this documentary. And I don't know if this was just a really bad example of what that therapy is like, but from what I saw in this documentary, I don't think I like it unless they just did a really bad job of it.
- [16:12]
Lindsay Chrisley
Okay. So Google says reunification therapy is a specialized, short term, short term form of therapy counseling aimed at repairing and rebuilding severely disrupted parent child relationships. It is most commonly used following high conflict divorces, periods of estrangement, or child welfare interventions to help children safely reconnect with alienated or non custodial, non custodial parents. So I think it was just a bad example of what it is. I think, like, for example, if my mom at any point wanted to introduce me to my dad prior to when I met him, maybe the court would want a reunification situation before I went to stay with him for overnights or full weekends or full weeks in the summer, it would be like a slowly reintroducing him into my life. And I feel like in some situations that can be really helpful. Right. Like if you have just, for all intents and purposes, maybe a mom who maybe was bitter and did like this alienation thing and then she finally comes to terms with it. And she's like, hey, like, I did keep you from your dad. Like, let's slowly work towards a rebuilding situation. I feel like that could be really helpful. But when we're talking about these allegations that the dad did, again, I don't know how you reunify somebody with their abuser. Like, that's not. And so. And I think the mom knew that, like, but it just. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that people aren't looking at the situation as the mom, like, manipulating the kids.
- [17:53]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. I don't think I love this documentary. I. I was annoyed at how it was narrated, and I don't think it wasn't my favorite documentary I've watched.
- [18:08]
Lindsay Chrisley
What do you think about the grandmother, like, speaking for the dad?
- [18:14]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I mean, I don't think that that's a reliable narrator for. For the situation because she's obviously biased.
- [18:23]
Lindsay Chrisley
Agreed. Like, it definitely wasn't helping the case, in my opinion. I don't. I think that because she loves her son, she obviously was gonna speak highly of him regardless. But I. This man would not have gotten on the end of that documentary and said what he said if he was guilty of this. I really think he would coward and. And go into a hole and have nothing to do with this. But there's just. The whole situation is off. The whole fucking thing pissed me off. I think the documentary. The main purpose of this documentary was to. To create an emotional. From listeners, no matter which side you were on. So whether you believe the dad or the kids or the mom, whatever, I think it was, the purpose of it was to create an emotional reaction. So I think that's why, like, when we're saying we're upset, we don't really love the way the documentary was done. I think that was the intent. Yeah.
- [19:18]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
So I guess it was pretty open.
- [19:20]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yeah. 100. And then would. What would your reaction be if you were in this mom's shoes first with the allegations, the custody issues, and then locking themselves in the room upstairs. Like, I'm just trying to think if my kids came to me and said, daddy, put this cream on me, or,
- [19:40]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
like, I guess at first, like, you want to, like, look into it because, like, you should hear your kids out to be like, okay, let me just, like, ask your dad what. Why you're saying that. Like, look into it. But I don't think that you would do what. What the mom did.
- [20:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
It just feels like. I don't know. I don't know. Having spent a lot of time in family court yourself, how much Money do you think these parents have spent? Okay, so one of the questions on here, having spent a lot of time in family court yourself, how much money do you think these parents have spent? Last year, 2025 out of the 100. Sorry, in 2025, out of the $1 million that I've spent in child custody over the past 10 years, $350,000 of it went into 2025 for me. With that being said, if that one year costed me $350,000, I would imagine for them, this was ongoing for several years before the dad decided to sign off his rights. And he had to have signed off his rights before Ty turned 18. My guess is that, I mean, they've probably spent over a million, like around a million dollars just on this case alone.
- [20:54]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
And the grandma said that she was pay. The dad apparently is broke. Did you see that part?
- [21:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
Why is the dad broke?
- [21:02]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Apparently the. When they were fighting for custody, the court asked the grandma, are you. Are you willing to continue to financially support the dad if he does get custody? And she said something that he's like, really struggling financially, especially with all the court. All the court fees. So apparently the grandparents have been financially supporting him.
- [21:25]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well, of course, because how. How. How does anyone with a. Like an average salary in an American household, how does anyone afford. Excuse me, how does anyone afford those types of bills?
- [21:37]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I mean,
- [21:39]
Lindsay Chrisley
I was almost on the corner of Dollar General to pay my last attorney bill. You know what I mean? Like, I. Shit is no joke. And these lawyers, like I just got a consultation for an attorney for something completely unrelated. $750 an hour.
- [21:57]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
The mom looks like she's thriving.
- [22:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
The mom looks like she needs to lay off the Ozempic.
- [22:03]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, like thriving financially, not mentally. Like, like her house in the. In the documentary. Like, it looks like she's doing well financially, even with all of the. The court fees.
- [22:20]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well, I don't know if you saw on Tick Tock, but Ty got on Tick Tock to answer some questions, and he said that he did not get paid for the documentary and he will never get paid for the documentary.
- [22:31]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Wow.
- [22:35]
Lindsay Chrisley
So, I know typically, typically. I'm not saying this is always the case. It's not a one size fits all. But generally speaking, in the documentary industry, you don't typically get paid. Like, no, like, that's very common. That's very typical. And that is always interesting to me because they say they don't want to jeopardize the integrity of the documentary. And for me on this side of it, paying me for My time to discuss what happened to me on a documentary is not going to ever. Like, I'm not going to say things because you're paint. Like, I'm not going to say more or less because you're paying me. You're asking. You're going to make millions of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars off of my story. Why wouldn't you pay me? That's not. That doesn't jeopardize the integrity. Like, that's so weird to me.
- [23:29]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, I didn't know that.
- [23:31]
Lindsay Chrisley
That's like, you just. These two children, despite whether it happened or not, you just exploited it even further than what was already on social media. And you're not going to pay them on top of that. Like, to me, that jeopardizes the integrity of the people making the documentary. This episode of Coffee Combos podcast is brought to you by booking.com I've got to say, if you're looking to grow your vacation rental business, this is the place to be. Booking.com is one of the most downloaded travel apps in the world. And for good reason. Since 2010, they've helped over 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to say that's b. With a billion, it couldn't be any easier. You can register your property in as little as 15 minutes, and nearly half of hosts get their first booking within a week. But here's the thing. Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com and if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of Booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? But once you start listening on booking.com, your property gets seen by a massive global audience of unique travelers. That means more visibility, more bookings, and more opportunity to accelerate the growth of your rental business. So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com okay, let's play these tick tocks. I actually don't know how. Let me call Alessandra and see if she would be able to play them. In the meantime, we can talk about. Yeah, the crash. Okay. I hope that nobody cancels me over my opinion because like I said, I think that the kids are the victims in all of this. Regardless. Like, I genuinely think that they believe this happened to them because of what their mom told them. But I don't know anything further than that. And again, this is my opinion. And if nobody agrees, that's fine. I just. The mom feels like a bitter. And protecting the. Like, it's one thing to want to protect your kids. And like you said, you're not even a parent. And like you said, you're initially going to try to get to the bottom of it. But I'm sorry, my kid coming home and saying, daddy put cream on my butt or on hot butt. I immediately like. My kids right now will say, ow, it hurts. I need cream. They tell me that, okay, but that I'm. Because they said, ow, it hurts, I need cream. I'm not automatically thinking, oh, my God, did Elijah do something? No. If I did, I would go to the source and I would kind of use my discernment to see, like, what his reaction is. And if I really felt suspicious, then I would move on. Like, move forward. But, like, something just doesn't sit. It wouldn't be this controversial if for sure it happened. Like, that's kind of how I feel. But anyways, if anyone doesn't agree, that's fine. We can agree to disagree. I think the kids are the victims regardless. But the biggest case all over social media besides this one right now, is the crash with Mackenzie Shrilla. And something came across my timeline yesterday that she wanted Kim Kardashian to represent her to get her out of prison. Did you see that? That.
- [26:40]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yes, I saw that. So I feel like with this documentary, also, I feel like I've learned more about the case on Tick Tock than I did from watching the documentary 1000%.
- [26:54]
Lindsay Chrisley
Because the documentary, it was infuriating. But I learned more on social media, and I guess I read. No, I didn't. I don't guess. I read. I saw on the videos on Tick Tock that Dom was actively trying to break up with Mackenzie. And then I saw rumors that she was. Well, not even rumors. In all the videos they played on. On the documentary, she was smoking a blunt in the car with no seatbelt on. And now all of a sudden, you're about to kill these two kids, and you all of a sudden have a seat belt on.
- [27:27]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Mm. Crazy.
- [27:33]
Lindsay Chrisley
Ma'. Am. Ma'. Am.
- [27:35]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, she. I mean, I think at least with this documentary, everyone's on the same page that this is crazy. Like, we all know that.
- [27:47]
Lindsay Chrisley
But do you think that she was operating out of, like, heightened emotion, or do you think this was like she planned it?
- [27:57]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I guess I Didn't think about the seat belt part, like, being planned, but I guess you remember, like, the clip of her turning on the street and she's going really slow. Like, right when she first turns on the street, she's going the speed limit. And then by the time she gets to the end of the street, she's going over 100. So I guess if it was heightened emotion, like, she would be like, like going crazy around the turn and she would have already been acting crazy. So if it was, I guess it would make sense if it was planned and she, like, turned normal on the street and then she knew she had to pick up, speed down that whole street. So I guess that would make sense. The way that I was thinking about it was that it was like a fight and it was heightened emotion. But I didn't think about it like that until you just said that.
- [28:54]
Lindsay Chrisley
I just, like, don't understand, like, what the she was thinking, like, the toxicity in her re. Like, interactions with Dom and like, them threatening each other, like, because there's text messages that he was doing it, and then there's phone call evidence or whatever, a witness of her doing it. And I don't deny that both of them probably have done it, but ultimately there is. It is weird to me. And I guess allegedly, again, everything is. This is our opinions, this is all alleged that she was practicing that route that she normally doesn't drive, and she went to go visit the building and that road and that route before the accident. I don't know if there's truth to that, but that was something that I saw on Tick Tock as well. And then just the jail calls, the conversations between her and her mom, and her mom telling her it's been sensationalized. And the Daily Mail has it, the uk, like, they're the. The positioning for both of these cases with the parents liking the attention. It feels really weird to me.
- [30:06]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. What did you think about MacKenzie's parents? Like, how they were acting?
- [30:13]
Lindsay Chrisley
McKenzie's parents are a prime example of wanting to be their child's friend and letting their child call the shots. And it also gave me Susie vibes. And the reason why I say that is because at the point that I, like, my mom kept me on my own for a long, like, I always fended for myself, even as a small child. Right. But once I hit my teenage years, at 13 years old, I stopped getting Christmases. She stopped taking me to Christmas with my family. And by 13 and up, it was kind of like, okay, my job is done. She's self Sufficient. And so I was ripping and running the streets. I was having sex, smoking weed, doing all the things. And that was simply because my mom was like, my job is done. Like, my mom felt like her job was done. Do you know what I'm saying? So once I got pregnant, it was like, okay, I'm done. That is what Mackenzie's parents reminded me of. Oh, she's 16. She can move in with her boyfriend. It's fine. The job is done. She's self sufficient. They're fine. And I just felt like it's so careless. And then I guess there was text messages on Tick Tock where she's messaging her dad, asking if he could make her warm milk. And then telling her to be. Telling her dad to be quiet when he comes in the house. Who the are you talking to?
- [31:29]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, Insane
- [31:33]
Lindsay Chrisley
Kayla just said she's gonna get on and play these Tick tocks. The crash just infuriated me because I'm like. Like, I just. I wish that I could understand the slow turn and then speeding up. Like it was almost like she was gearing up. And then they. Somebody grabbed the wheel at some point and somebody tried to put it in neutral at some point. But this is. I don't know.
- [31:57]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
And it kind of wasn't the driver because if she was trying to put it in neutral, she'd be trying to press the. The brakes, but the brakes weren't pressed.
- [32:07]
Lindsay Chrisley
I wonder if she thought, I wonder if Davion was like, unfortunately just like, collateral damage. Like he was just an extra. Because that's so sad.
- [32:21]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I know.
- [32:22]
Lindsay Chrisley
And he did not. I mean, none of them deserve it. But why didn't they have their seat belts on? And she did. Like, something just feels so. And why did you, when you did, at that point, just stay the night or wait until a normal hour to leave? Like, everything just felt weird to me.
- [32:35]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. Leaving at five in the morning, weird. And her friend, Mackenzie's best friend. What is her name? What was.
- [32:44]
Lindsay Chrisley
Oh, Rosie.
- [32:46]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. I don't like her.
- [32:47]
Lindsay Chrisley
It would. Could you imagine getting on a documentary and telling the world that you have, like, you would not go in for a police interview, but now you're going to talk to Netflix?
- [33:00]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. That says a lot about her character in the whole thing.
- [33:06]
Lindsay Chrisley
And I'm not saying, like, go talk to the police because they asked you to, but if you're not talking to police, maybe also don't talk to Netflix. Like, whatever. You don't want to talk to the police. Like, this isn't your case. Whatever. Okay, fine. But you're gonna get on here and talk to Netflix about everything. And what was the other comment that's going viral on Tick Tock right now? Is the girl who said, I knew MacKenzie wasn't suicidal because when we went to McDonald's, she wouldn't even get a mix.
- [33:37]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. So stupid. What? Like, oh, so she can't. She can't be suicidal because she wouldn't eat a McChicken. Like, she wanted to be skinny and hot. That's why she didn't eat a McChicken. Give me a break.
- [33:55]
Lindsay Chrisley
And then there was Mackenzie's jail. Like a jail mates. I don't know.
- [34:02]
Ad Voice
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- [34:03]
Lindsay Chrisley
What do you call somebody that you're in prison with that you're in jail? Me? I don't think they were cellmates. I think they were just, like, booked at the same time and in the prison at the same time. And she's pissed. Like, she got on. Did you see them? Did you see the Tick Tocks? Yeah, on Tick Tock, she is pissed the off, and she's like. And these are all her infractions. Did you see the list of infractions that she's had since she's been there?
- [34:25]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, that's also.
- [34:26]
Lindsay Chrisley
What the. Are you doing? Okay. Kayla just got in so she can play the videos.
- [34:30]
Kayla
You want me just go ahead and play them?
- [34:31]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yeah, sure, hon.
- [34:35]
Kayla
Is crazy.
- [34:37]
Lindsay Chrisley
That's what Lux says. I'll have to send you the video.
- [34:39]
Kayla
Surehand is wild. All right.
- [34:42]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
Upstairs. About the two children who barricaded themselves in a bedroom.
- [34:46]
Lindsay Chrisley
Nope.
- [34:47]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
In their mom's house to avoid being reunified with their father.
- [34:50]
Podcast Announcer
Father.
- [34:50]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
Which had been ordered by court. The courts wanted this to take place in a literal reunification camp, where they would be forced to do activities with their perpetrator and be not allowed to see their supportive mom. If you haven't watched it, it's on Hulu. So it's two kids. They come to their mom, and they disclose that they are being sexually abused by their dad, who is also a domestic violence perpetrator. He was mega, mega controlling. So he's like, part material. They went to cps. CPS founded. They substantiated the case, and suddenly, a couple of years later, everything gets turned around, and they say that Jessica is committing parental alienation. I just want to say it's parental alienation. Just seems like the magic key that perpetrators can use to say, actually, none of this is about me. This is all about these other 400 crazy people. The parental alienator has the power of a thousand fiery sons. Apparently like what? The kid had also seen a play therapist, which is what I do. I'm a play therapist. And he saw a really well known play therapist who died in 2024. His name was JP Lilly. And when JP Lilly believed the child, the courts also said, well, you're an alienator.
- [36:09]
Lindsay Chrisley
Like,
- [36:11]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
it was wild to me to watch a situation like this being usually the play therapist in this case, in JP Lilly's case, like, a child comes in, they're doing amazing work, they're feeling safe, they're disclosing things and suddenly somebody is accusing you of like, I don't know, somehow alienating the child. Like, it's so weird. And then they had a therapist on there talking about how terrible parental alienation is. And like, I just don't buy her all of this. These children locking themselves up in the room, going through most of their childhood in a terrible court battle until at the very end, the dad decides to, I don't know, he doesn't dress, drop the case, he gives up custody of them, which I think is a really just way to make him look selfless and more like the victim. Like, it's just absolutely ridiculous to me. I just don't understand why people don't believe kids like any of this. All of this could have been an email, right?
- [37:13]
Lindsay Chrisley
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Lindsay Chrisley
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Lindsay Chrisley
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Kale Lowry
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- [38:25]
Lindsay Chrisley
Okay, so my take on this video specifically is just that I don't think that the kids went to her initially and said I'm that they're being sexually abused. The daughter first came to the mom and said something about daddy putting lotion. And in my opinion it was something innocent that the mom embellished and elaborated and then said, go tell grandma. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I just feel like the mom kind of did that. She was like, oh. And then the. The sun coming at a later. I don't fully remember the details on the sun coming forward years later, but like I can't fully remember what's the other TikTok Kayla this is who left
- [39:08]
TikTok Commentator
out from the Nightmare Upstairs documentary. Honestly, I read the ProPublica article of this and I'm like hulu unfair. The way that the documentary was positioned for viewers to feel that they couldn't choose a side is so wrong because the evidence show that the children were abused. In 2018, the Utah Child of Family Services said that they found evidence and proof that Brent abused both of his children, Ty and Brinley. It was not only sexual abuse, but it was also emotional abuse. It was noted as being severe and chronic and that's what led to supervised visits from his end. And he had an 150 day restraining order. He was under a criminal investigation until 2021. And the only reason that they stopped the probe was because they did not have enough evidence to take it to court and to find a prosecution. But it was noted that there was evidence. So in order for him to not fall victim to any of these, they came up with parental alienation. So the thing with parental alienation is that none of these mainstream, you know, psychology groups believe in it. They don't think it's a legitimate diagnosis. They have denied that. It's like real. Obviously there are cases and it is very real for one parent to put their children against another parent. But it's not a diagnosis, not the way that they were making it seem in the documentary. Now what's so disgusting about this is that the children's abuse and their recounts of abuse are being used against them, even though they are very strong, specific and based on Utah's Child and Family Services and their probe and whatnot has not necessarily changed. Not like they're saying it has in the documentary. So what happened here is Brett Larson, who is the father of the children who has now been noted as having abused his children. Though Brent Larson, the father and also the perpetrator. Right. Of the abuse, he came up with a positioning, saying that it's parental alienation and that he didn't do Anything pretty much put it back against the victims, his children and his ex wife. You also have his second wife coming forward saying that he had coached her and pretty much was like, oh, just say that you feel safe leaving me alone with your kids, etc. Like, why would she do that? Why would she even come out and say that he had coached her if he was abusive? And you have her also saying that he was abusive just in general and had really manipulative and controlling behavior. Then you have Michelle Jones. She is a reunification therapist at the court appointed. She worked with Ty and Brinley and came to the conclusion that no abuse had ever happened. Even though a forensic psychologist that was hired in 2019 by both parents substantiated that chronic abuse had happened in both the son and daughter thing with Michelle Jones and no shade. But she is super for parental alienation. Like she is someone in the industry that is like pro. Like it's it being real, which really goes against everyone else in the industry. She is so for it that she even presents in conferences about parental alienation, trying to substantiate it and trying to make it a thing. I'm going to read this piece. But pro publica, they actually found a presentation from one of hers from like 2013 where there's a slide of a mother speaking to a child and it literally says, now that we falsely accused daddy in family court, we can have ice cream for supper, play video games and go to the park all day and wait for the support checks to roll in. I don't think this is someone who is very impartial. Right. When it comes to this. Now we should always believe children. That's something that I just 100% feel is real. I don't think that there's any way that these children would have barricaded themselves in a room for 54 days out of fear and they wouldn't have come forward and dealt with everything that they have dealt with the past couple years and are continuing to deal with.
- [43:21]
Lindsay Chrisley
Right.
- [43:21]
TikTok Commentator
Because of the release of this documentary. If none of that was true. And I think it's messed up that people are thinking that Ty is just covering for his sister when it has been substantiated. That he substantiated.
- [43:35]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
I can't.
- [43:36]
TikTok Commentator
That he also was abused. And I think this is the moment where we kind of just need discernment when we watch this documentary. No shade to Hulu, but I think that they purposefully edited it to be where viewers aren't sure of what side to go on, etc. But what ultimately happened is all this discourse started with people not believing the kids who are victims here. Then there's a case of public opinion against the mom and whatnot when none of that is true. But, yeah, I'm happy to dive deeper. Let me know.
- [44:07]
Lindsay Chrisley
Okay, so after all of that is being said on those TikToks, my opinion that. That he would not have fought through all of this. And then at the end realize, okay, I have fought through this and my kids are still struggling. Like, I'm just going to remove myself and, you know, whatever. Like, I fully understand that it's the same again, bringing it back to my own situation. My dad, now that I had that closure conversation with him and he explained to me his positioning, I fully understand why he gave up. And I would have done the same thing in my. In his position. Because at what point do you say, I've done X, Y and Z, it is not working. I have run out of resources. I've run out of income. I've run out of pto. I have to call it. I have to call it. I have to throw the towel in. So, like, that's sort of where my head is at. But also like, I. It sucks because it's like, I. I don't necessarily. Based on what I remember from the documentary, which I watched it, I think, on Saturday, so I watched it a few days ago. I remember Brinley saying that he put the cream on her, but I don't remember any other. Like, the mom was the one that was, like, embellishing it, right? Or am I crazy?
- [45:16]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, I think that sounds right. And then when the kids were in therapy, Ty said in front of the therapist that he was, like, touched in be. But I think that's all we heard him actually say.
- [45:36]
Lindsay Chrisley
I think that there are people, too, who do do the parental alienation thing. And then there are other cases where they're saying it's parental alienation, but it's really not. It's out of pure protection of the kids. So someone said, I don't know. It felt so strange. I wanted to believe the kids. But also what the mom. But also what the mom that thinks somebody did that to her kids is going to drop the charges for real, knowing that her kids are now going to be forced to spend time with them. That didn't sit right with me, that I feel like the mom dropped the charges to basically be like, let's just make all this go away. Like, I dug myself too deep because I know for 100 certainty that I would not Drop charges. If I knew without a shadow of a doubt that my kids were sexually abused. And I. It wasn't just a gut feeling. It was like, I know this happened. I'm sorry. Never dropping those charges. No, I don't care. But it almost was like, it feels to me from an outsider, like, let me clean up this mess really quick. This went to the.
- [46:38]
Kayla
It's also odd to me, you know, if I'm a prosecutor looking at a case like this or looking to bring charges like this, like, a lot of times, even in domestic violence cases, the victim or the parental guardians of the victim, they can try to drop those charges and the state will pick them back up.
- [46:55]
Lindsay Chrisley
Up.
- [46:56]
Kayla
You know what I mean? The state won't allow the drop of the charges. So that's interesting to me.
- [46:59]
Lindsay Chrisley
You know, this says that dad dropped the charges when the kids were 18 and 15. Dad now lives in Wyoming. Who do you think's crazier? The mom from Unknown Caller or the mom from the crash?
- [47:23]
Kayla
Oh, man, that's a tough one because they're both insane. I don't know. Zach, what do you think?
- [47:32]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I just hate Mackenzie's mom in the crash. So true. I think she.
- [47:41]
Lindsay Chrisley
I'm actually.
- [47:42]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Go ahead.
- [47:44]
Lindsay Chrisley
I'm still reading all these comments on the post on Facebook, and I'm actually surprised by the amount of people who are kind of unsure or side with the dad. And I think that's why people. I think that's why they did decide to do this. I don't know. I have a lot of feelings about it, and I just. I would love to talk to them just privately and just see, like, will the kids ever come around and be like, I don't actually remember any of this. This is just what I was told happened. Like, do. Do we think that would ever happen?
- [48:19]
Kayla
If I was those kids, I probably wouldn't say publicly. They've been through enough. You know what I mean?
- [48:24]
Lindsay Chrisley
The kids have been through enough. Regardless. Coffee Combo's podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies, the process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. It visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Moving on. We do have a foul play, and that Foul play, Kayla, if you don't want to be on, that's fine. And if you don't want to be on this episode, Alessandra can edit it out. Okay. The foul play says, hey, my kitties, I'll jump right in. So while I was working at a local pizza joint, we got this new employee. He was so hot and I got the job of training him. We were flirty off the gate and ended up exchanging numbers. Shortly after this, he invited me to one of his friend's houses after work for a little hangout and it was a great time. The following weekend, my best friend was having a card game and I asked him to come with me. This specific friend and I had a recent fallout and had just started talking again. So when we got there, me and her immediately started taking shots and catching up. Many, many shots later, I was totally wasted. Next thing I know, my sister and Mr. Hottie were putting me in the back seat of my car and driving me home, which was about a five minute drive. Once I got home, I went straight for the bathroom. I was puking and completely out of it. Mind you, this was. Mind you, this was our only second. Mind you, this was only our second time hanging out outside of work. Him and my sister had the had the job of cleaning me up and putting me to bed. I was mortified. He was a sweetie though, and stayed with me. The next morning, I apologized profusely. I was beyond embarrassed. Needless to say, we have been together every day since that night. Here we are nine amazing years later and will be sitting beside me at the Fatherless Behavior tour in North North Carolina. P s I'm a habitual pant myself and relate to you ladies more than you know. XOXO your fellow kitty cat. Well, that's great news. I'm so, so nice to know that I don't my pants alone.
- [50:32]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I have to have you ever shared
- [50:35]
Kayla
we're gonna be together on tour.
- [50:37]
Lindsay Chrisley
Zach. Be so for real and admit it on this podcast.
- [50:41]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Unfortunately not. So I'll leave that to you. No, I can. I can.
- [50:50]
Lindsay Chrisley
What you.
- [50:50]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
When I was little, not as an adult.
- [50:55]
Lindsay Chrisley
Zach, take it back.
- [50:56]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
I can't take it. I so I can I. I can make it to the bathroom in time and I don't have issues in that regard. The only thing I can relate to a little bit is I have a bad bladder and I like the second I have to pee I'm like, like I need to run to go pee right now. But like no, I've never myself. Sorry.
- [51:19]
Kayla
What's it like to God's Favorite.
- [51:22]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah, I think that's the only way I'm God's favorite in that me and
- [51:28]
Lindsay Chrisley
Kayla texted each other not that long ago, and we were both on the side of the road and on the. In the literal same day. She literally texted me and I texted her. I said, kayla, I just did the same thing. We are having bowel issues at Killer. We are having about like, I am being tested for celiac disease because I can't stop myself. Yep.
- [51:55]
Kayla
I texted you that night because I was like, hey, like, I can't get this post up. I'm really sorry. I'm like, literally on the side of the road myself. And you're like, no way.
- [52:04]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Same.
- [52:04]
Kayla
And I'm like, honestly, thank God. You know what I mean?
- [52:07]
Lindsay Chrisley
So it's one of those things where you just do your best. But honestly, if you're. If you're hanging out with someone and on the first or the second time, you're willing to clean up their vomit or their. And you're willing to like, go through the trenches with them, like, you should be together forever.
- [52:24]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
100.
- [52:26]
Lindsay Chrisley
Have you ever wanted for someone?
- [52:29]
Zach (Makeup Artist)
Yeah. And also, since I don't drink, I'm usually the like the designated driver. The put. Put my friend in bed. The cleanup, the throw up.
- [52:39]
Lindsay Chrisley
I'm usually that friend 1000%. There was one time my ex and my best friend drank so much that they were so up and we put them to bed and then they were cuddling because they were so up, they didn't realize. So I took a picture of them and then threw it at them while they were sleeping because I was like, damn, like, we you to bed because you were up. That doesn't give you the permission to cuddle. So. Well, there you have it. There's our take on the nightmare upstairs and the crash. And on that note, every episode after this until mid June was pre recorded. And you guys can catch up with us on Thursdays. Thank you, Zach, and thank you, Kayla as well for being a part of podcast today.
- [53:26]
Documentary Expert/Commentator
Thank you.
- [53:27]
Lindsay Chrisley
Thank you, guys. Hey guys, we're back. You asked for it. And we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on klow.com and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else. At first, I didn't think it was real.
- [54:09]
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Lindsay Chrisley
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Podcast Announcer
hi there, it's Becca Tobin. I am currently the mother of a four year old, which means I have been through it, but I still have questions and maybe even a few answers. From surrogacy to toddler chaos, I have learned a lot and also not nearly enough. That's why I decided to launch Baby Gang, a six part series from the Lady Gang where I'm getting real about fertility, parenting and all the stuff nobody actually tells you. I'm bringing in some experts for the tough stuff and some other celeb moms and friends for parenting survival stuff. It's honest, it's messy, it's emotional, and yes, we are definitely laughing through it. Because whether you're in it, thinking about it, or just curious, we've got you. So join the Baby Gang wherever you get your Podcasts
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Lindsay Chrisley
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