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Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Jack Mallers on Failure, Integrity, and Walking Away from 21
01:05:57
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- [00:00]
Jack Mallers
Now that I'm not a public company officer, I could tell you whatever you want. In that respect, I'm back.
- [00:07]
Natalie
When did things start to change?
- [00:08]
Jack Mallers
What happened was the company's direction and what I started and what I wanted to build were no longer the same. That was a very unique moment for me where it was like, okay, here's a blank check and here's what you. Anything you want. Like, are you willing to. To sell out? I just couldn't. There's just no way. Reality is like, I failed in many ways and I own that.
- [00:36]
Natalie
For folks out there who invested in 2ne1 specifically because they just love you.
- [00:41]
Jack Mallers
Yeah.
- [00:41]
Natalie
What do you say to them?
- [00:42]
Jack Mallers
Well, I mean.
- [00:49]
Natalie
Hey, everyone, welcome back to the show. We have Jack Mallers in the house. CEO of Strike, recently stepped down from his role at 21. So how are you, Jack? I mean, a lot of news happening right now.
- [01:01]
Jack Mallers
Yeah, I'm good. I'm healthy, I'm happy. I'm getting married. So in that respect, I'm good. Lots of exciting, but no, of course, I mean, complicated, obviously. Emotions all over the place. I think stepping down from 21 was the right thing to do, but it sucks. I helped start that business and those are my friends, still are. And so obviously there's part of that's complicated, but I think it was the right thing to do for a variety of reasons. And now that I'm not a public company officer reporting to the sec, I could tell you whatever you want. So you can ask. In that respect, I'm back. So you can ask me whatever you want.
- [01:45]
Natalie
I'm sure so many people are happy to hear that. Millions watched your video about your decision to step down.
- [01:51]
Jack Mallers
That's true. That's overwhelming. I saw that.
- [01:53]
Natalie
Well, why don't we break it down just a little bit more? Maybe start at the beginning. Why did you decide to create. Help create 21 and, and go public? Because a lot of people made that decision in the last year to start these bitcoin treasury companies and a lot of them not doing so great. So talk to me about like the beginning of that before we get to this decision to step down.
- [02:14]
Jack Mallers
Yeah, I mean, so there's there's a lot of lore here. I Co founded 21 with tether and like, what does that even mean? Tether was founded by. And the chairman of the business is a guy named Giancarlo, which people don't. He's just not a very. He doesn't like attention. I don't know. I want to speak for him, but that's my interpretation of, of our friendship. And then the other is Paulo, who is the CEO. People maybe are more familiar with that name. So it's those two predominantly that I spent time with. And I mean everything from defining the vision where we aligned, we Both, we've, the three of us have been in Bitcoin each for over 10 years. I think Giancarlo was a little bit before me, maybe circa 2011, 2012, I was 2013, Paulo shortly after that. So just been around for a long time, been friends and we had aligned on a vision that was fairly unified. So I'm using my hands for the podcast listeners. But I, you know, I think we view the space on a spectrum where maybe on one side you've got a Coinbase or a Robin Hood. And these are businesses that I think the capital markets are accustomed to. They have customers, they have cash flow, they have products, they have growth, they have a vision that is easy to understand and they have KPIs that people are used to and that all is great. Makes sense. These companies are worth tens of billions of dollars. They're able to produce billions of dollars of cash flow and they have growth prospects. And you can value these businesses on like a discounted cash flow model or maybe tech is getting a certain multiple. Okay, but they don't believe in bitcoin at least the way that I do, at least the way that Tether does, at least the way that someone like Michael Saylor does, which I would consider the opposite side of the spectrum, which is a business like strategy that believes in bitcoin deeply, has that conviction, but lacks all of the properties I just described, doesn't have products, doesn't have customers, doesn't have cash flow. It is strictly self described as capital markets, financial engineering. And so here you have two polar opposites. Where, you know, I don't think it's a secret that Coinbase has openly cared more about Ethereum and Altcoins and their own blockchain than Bitcoin itself. And if you look at their balance sheet, they've got 10, $11 billion and less than 1 is Bitcoin. So, you know, if money is, you know, conviction expressed monetarily like they don't clearly they believe. What's their belief in bitcoin? What's the math on that? Less than 10% belief in Bitcoin. Whereas Michael Saylor can make the argument he's over 100% belief in Bitcoin because he, that that's what he sells. Like I believe the most and I'M the most levered, and anyone that buys my equity gets the most performance. And we viewed those as polar opposites. Now, as businessmen in this space that have been around bitcoin for a long time, we figured, man, you know, the dream and what the capital markets is surely going to be interested in is, is some happy medium where, you know, I don't necessarily believe fully or I'm not. It's not even about belief in what's right and what's wrong. I'm not interested in, like, perpetually financial engineering. I want to build products. I want to support the adoption of bitcoin. I want to build tools. I mean, eventually we're going to need financial services and all sorts of stuff. And I've built that at Strike, and Tether's built that at Tether. And we're like, okay, can we build a business that has products and cash flow and growth prospects whilst also displaying an immense amount of singular, focused conviction in this bitcoin thing? And we. That was our vision. That's still the vision I believe in. That's what I'm building at Strike. You know, listen, we don't have, you know, the second biggest treasury in the world, but we got a big one and we were profitable and we're growing and we're building tools that promote bitcoin adoption. And so that's still my belief. And what happened was the company's direction and what I started and what I wanted to build were no longer the same, which is okay. It doesn't make anyone a bad person. Ultimately, smart, good people can look at an opportunity and arrive at different conclusions as to what they want, but 21 was never mine. It was always up to the board. Tether makes up the board. And so at a certain point, we began to disagree. And not only was I not interested in building something that wasn't my vision and what I wanted to build, I'm also not the right person to lead it. My face shouldn't be on it. And I didn't have. I mean, in my. In the bones that make up my body. I don't have it in me to look you in the eye and tell you to invest in a business or support a business or be interested in a business that I don't truly believe. It doesn't make it a bad business. It has everything it needs to be successful. But it just. For all of those reasons, it was the right decision. But any. That was the vision. We. I mean, I came up with the name, I registered the ticker, I designed the Logo. I mean we, we created it and so it's super unfortunate but let in
- [07:15]
Natalie
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- [08:30]
Jack Mallers
No, I mean, so some more just background of 21 lore and for the record, few things, almost disclaimers. I'm not at the company anymore. Doesn't mean the company can't be extremely successful. It's the second largest treasury in the world or in the corporate world. It's also public. There's a lot of people that tried to go public and tried to build a big treasury and it didn't work and it failed and we achieved that. And the business has world class backing, a world class board full of bitcoiners who have been immensely successful and they have everything they need to succeed their way. It's just not a way that I wanted to lead and for that reason I shouldn't be leading it. So just to be clear, and I don't want to speak on behalf of the business. I mean I don't engage with lawyers the way I do. Now that I'm not a public company officer, I'm happy to just speak my mind. I probably am legally not allowed to speak on behalf of the company, but I'm also just like, as a good person, not interested in it because it's not my place. It's their thing. So I just want to be clear. I, you know, you're not going to get the future of the business from me. However, I can tell the story. So we were the first, you know what I would say, like, treasury company of this little era, of this, like, now bear market. And you said everyone is struggling. We were the first. We were before. I'm trying to think of the Adam Back Swan Nakamoto. This was April 2025 when we, like, got it off the ground and announced it. And the market was very different back then. It was not immensely crowded. The bitcoin price was going through. I don't think 2025 was a real bull run. I've been in the space for a long time. I don't count it. But it wasn't a bear market. I mean, the price was going up. There was liquidity and exuberance and excitement. And so that time was very different than by the time the business had gotten through approval from the SEC to list on the New York Stock Exchange. And mind you, we were like at the finish line, we thought we were going to get approved that summer, which obviously would have made for better timing. And then, I don't know if you remember, but the government shut down in October. And so the SEC is part of the government. So it was a hilarious thing. It's like we're ready to run the business and, well, the government, someone plugged the government back in. What do you mean it's not on? And they couldn't approve us. And so we didn't get approved until December. And so the, by the time you do your annual filings and you're approved and I, I, we weren't allowed to do anything before that approval. The market had changed. The definition of M Nav has changed 700 times. The premium to the equity of selling the ATM has changed all of a sudden, you know, convertible instruments were not the strategy and it was preferreds and which the market changes and what a strategy could be considered and what we initially thought. And then now we have to figure out, okay, well, where's the market today? What's the appropriate way to finance things? What's the appropriate way to achieve our vision? And I would say it was then in more like the more recent months where it was like, okay, well, the world has changed since we started it. And unfortunately, the world changed drastically since we went from filing to approval and we started to reassess things. And you know, I will tell you, Natalie, like, even I would. I don't think people know this. When we started the company, like, Strike being a part of 21 was not only. Not part of the conversation, I was very explicit. I was concerned. I was like, guys, I'm not like a serial entrepreneur. Like, I don't like being an entrepreneur for the sake of entrepreneurship. You know, these type of Silicon Valley personalities of like, oh, I've founded 12 companies and seven exit. It's that, sorry, am I allowed to curse? Building businesses is immensely difficult. I don't love, like. Like, when I'm done with Strike and bitcoin, I'm done. I'm not, like, founding anything else. And so when they're like, come on, like, we really should do this. This is a huge opportunity. And, like, we believe. I was like, guys, I just got Strike working. Like, it's. It's. Strike almost failed a thousand times. It's so painful. I don't want to have to, you know, do the equivalent of living in the slums of El Salvador again. Like, I don't.
- [12:53]
Natalie
Like, was the plan to potentially acquire Strike?
- [12:55]
Jack Mallers
No, never. I said. I said very specifically, like, I'm worried. I already have this thing. It was so hard. And, like, you know, how is that going to. And there. And everyone was like, just be a CEO of both. There's plenty of people. Like, Dorsey was the CEO of two companies.
- [13:11]
Natalie
Elon, right now.
- [13:12]
Jack Mallers
Elon. And like, we can support you in that. Like, let's not let that get in the way. But I was very clear about, like, I don't. You know, it's very. And we can get into this. Meaningful to me that Strike is mine, and that when I look a customer in the eye or bitcoiner in the eye, that they're trusting me. And I think that my story and Strike story is very important to bitcoiners, which we should probably talk about. But anyway, eventually the market started to really, like, investors were coming to the board and saying, like, the market wants Jack to consolidate. Like, when Jack announces something or does a keynote, is. Is he talking about the thing that I bought or, like, what's the difference? And how. And so there started to be pressure, which. Which wasn't like, you know, secret backdoor dealing type of pressure. It was, you know, the market was starting to say, like, hey, a way to bootstrap this is to. And so that's when it was like, okay, well, now that. That's a change. So I think you asked, like, what changed? Well, that's a change because when we sat. I'll never forget What I would consider like more of the founding meaning of like, hey, what should we name it? What's our timeline? Who needs to be involved? How are we going to source capital? All of that, it was explicitly, I was very explicit of, like, I, I don't, you know, like, it was hard enough for me to build one thing. And I'm not like serially interested in being a business builder. Like, screw that, I'm a bitcoiner. I'm not like a Silicon Valley entrepreneur. I built Strike because I care about bitcoin, not because I care about, like, I don't do business for the sake of business. Fuck that. So anyway, yeah.
- [14:57]
Natalie
Do you want to shed some light on just when you become sort of the face of a public company? There's a lot you really can't say. There are so many rules that come into play. I didn't realize this until I sat on the board of a public company. I mean, a lot of folks right on Twitter, they want to hear directly from you, but in some cases you're sort of limited, right? You might not be limited when you're the head of a private company, but you have to follow all these SEC rules. Do you want to share anything about that and maybe how you felt limited?
- [15:27]
Jack Mallers
No. I mean, it's just important for people to understand what capital markets are and why they work the way they work. They're designed to attract liquidity and investment, to be extraordinarily efficient. I mean, the mere fact that we can have the amount of actively traded volume and price discovery and investment, that, you know, companies can raise billions of dollars at whims, notice, through all certain different vehicles. You know, if you didn't try and build an environment and in a structure that helped ensure that the counterparty risk you were taking was vetted and checked. Like, what if you were dealing with someone unethical? What if you were dealing with someone fraudulent? Now, we could do like a very Austrian free market approach to that, which is every deal that you want to do, you got to fly to the person's house, you got to shake their hand, you got to audit their books. That would be like the very libertarian Austrian, you know, kill big Corp, kill the state. But obviously the United States has a huge interest in attracting capital, attracting investment, attracting liquidity. And so they build regulations to create what we know as the capital markets. And so embedded in that is that if you want to operate within that and you want to gain benefit from that, then you need to follow the rules. Because the rules, in theory, are supposed to Govern everyone's ability to not get scammed, not get cheated, not deal with a fraudster. Now, as bitcoiners, you know, is. Is the. Has. Has reality matched the intent. I obviously disagree with that. I didn't enjoy being a public company officer. I like running my business my way and, and being my own man and saying what I want my way. But it doesn't mean that the intent and why it exists know. Does it make sense? Like, I get it, I get it. You know, if you're going to. Can, like when I. I'll never forget when we were going to list. We pick the primary market maker for our equity. Like, who do we want to, like, be the algorithmic, provide the equity liquidity. And you meet with Citadel and you meet with all these folks and it's like, okay, it makes sense. I mean, Citadel's basically going to plow like a ton of money into providing our equity liquidity so that we can raise capital so that our investors can get in and get out and so that it's an attractive place for capital. And like, Citadel doesn't know. Like, Ken Griffin has never shook shaking my hand. He doesn't know my balance sheet. He probably doesn't understand bitcoin at all. He probably needs to read your book. And so how does he have the confidence to be able to just say, like, yeah, I'll. I'll turn this equity into something legitimate? Well, because it's in the capital markets and because capital markets has created an environment and a level of trust with its participants that, like, people follow the rules. So I don't know. That's why it exists. And I get it. But for me personally and the type of guy I am, it was excruciatingly painful. I didn't enjoy it at all. But that's okay.
- [18:32]
Natalie
I mean, when you started strike, did you have a dream of going public? Like, is this a goal of a lot of founders? Because again, last year it was like, one after another people you didn't expect to all of a sudden be running public companies. So, like, is it this shining light that everyone was like, well, bitcoin treasuries are now a thing. Let's all go public?
- [18:50]
Jack Mallers
No, no. I think Tether and I figured we were like, you know, what Saylor taught us all is the pools of capital that actually are interested in bitcoin. And even if they aren't explicitly interested in bitcoin itself, they're interested in the returns it could generate or the asymmetry relative to their portfolio. There was either direct Interest or a derivative of interest in this bitcoin thing in the capital markets. And mind you guys that have been in bitcoin for over a decade, like we're like, finally, here we go. Because it was foreign to us. Like it was always an anarchist libertarian tool and then a hacker developer tool. And then, you know, I don't know how this happened. Then it was a nation state, country, but small emerging El Salvador tool. And you like, you grow and you grow, you grow. And then MSTR came onto the scene and tether and I was like, okay. Now we disagreed with a lot of what Saylor was doing though in this, like, I'm going to perpetually financially engineer, like, okay, could that work maybe? I don't know. We're not perpetual financial engineers. So we have some questions. We're dubious about some parts. Doesn't mean that we're smarter than everybody else and it's not going to work. Could totally work. But if these people in the capital markets and these pools of capital are interested in like perpetual preferred stocks, wait until they see like cash flow businesses and conviction into bitcoin. Like, you know, what's the best thing for SATs per share is like cash flow. That's the best non dilutive, easiest way to do it. And so that was the simple idea. And you know what was, to be honest, we were watching to like wait for someone to do it. I was really waiting for like Robinhood or someone to say, man, displaying conviction in bitcoin carries so much network effects, so many economies of scale. And we were waiting and then eventually with time tether and I almost came to this conclusion of like, well, if nobody's going to do it, that's the calling for people that build. And just because I didn't like being a public company officer didn't mean it wasn't worth it. We wanted to do what we felt was right for bitcoin, right for shareholders. And ultimately, why does anyone build anything when we're gone? All that's left is what you've made you want to build things that you want to see exist. And so it was a very simple. It wasn't more complicated than that. Unfortunately, it didn't work. And I do want to make sure I say when I was talking to my chief of staff, Dylan, who's in the other room, I was nervous to come and do podcasts again. Part of me is very excited to be back and unleashed. And my favorite part about my job or where I found myself in my life is that I get to champion bitcoin unapologetically and try and represent the people. But I didn't want a conversation like this almost to be like, explaining myself in an effort to ask for forgiveness or ask for understanding, you know, because the reality is, like, I failed in many ways and I own that. And so I also want to, like, set that record straight and be clear because I don't know when this conversation is going to end, but it didn't work. And I laid out a vision and set expectations that ultimately weren't met too, which is part of the story. And some people were impacted by that. And that's real. And that, that's the, the guilt that comes with this story. And the unfortunate part of building things is sometimes it doesn't work. And like I said, it doesn't mean the company has failed. The company still has second largest treasury public market access, and now it has a unified vision between leadership and the board that can go forward and they have a chance to turn something, turn the business into something that's meaningful to Bitcoin. But I just want the people out there to know that I'm not asking for forgiveness or understanding. Oh, oh. Now that I heard that part of the story, it makes sense. Like, I don't need that from people. I don't, I don't. I don't believe in pointing fingers or delegating blame. It's a culture that I've built at strike for years. And when an employee comes to me and says, well, don't look at me, it was that guy, I tell them, you shouldn't have said that because now I know that guy determines outcomes, owns our fate, is the one ultimately with sovereign ownership and control over our destiny. So then I'm going to ask, why are you here? Are you only here to point at that guy? Do not point fingers. I don't believe in pointing fingers because then that by proxy assumes that you're not in control of your own life, you're not in control of your own destiny, your own decisions. It's not the bitcoin way of approaching outcomes. So I was a CEO and I own it. So also want to make that clear.
- [23:32]
Natalie
Well, I think one of the reasons why so many people follow and, and love you, frankly, Jack, because, and I've seen the way people respond to you when I, when I've been at like, conferences with you is because you're just so authentic. But I'm curious, why do you see it as a failure? I mean, sometimes people take on roles and they're not the right fit and they decide to move on to something else. Like, why did you say the word failure?
- [23:56]
Jack Mallers
Because I set out to do something and it didn't work. Which, you know, I think we live in a culture where people are afraid of failure. It's more complicated than that. Like, in many ways, like, failures is wisdom. You know, like, when you think of, like, who do. Who do I. Who are the wise? Like the elderly, the wise. The monk. You know, you picture the monk at the top of the mountain who has tons of wisdom and is wise. He's not wise because he read five books that he ordered on Amazon, or else we'd all be wise. It's wise through experience, through trial, error, failure. I wrote an essay that I was allowed to publish after I resigned where the premise is really about this idea of what punishments are not gifts. We mistaken gifts as punishment, because in many ways, failure is. So I failed, and I tried to do something, and it didn't work. Doesn't mean the company's not going to work, and it doesn't mean it's not the best decision for me and for Strike and what I want out of this life. But I communicated a vision and I communicated expectations that weren't met. And I need to own that, and I need to understand why and what that means about me and what gifts and what lessons are embedded in that experience. It's only right, and it's only what's best for me. I don't know. You live in this culture of, like, everyone's. Like I said, afraid to own outcomes, afraid to own failures.
- [25:26]
Natalie
Sure.
- [25:27]
Jack Mallers
And it's. I think it's wrong for them in their best interest, and it's wrong for the greater interest of what they're trying to achieve. So that's what I mean. Like, I would say, if I have one, like, regret, to your point, we achieved stuff. We went. I took a company public. That was hard. And like I said, there's a lot of bitcoiners out there that tried to do what we did and failed. We built the second largest treasury. I mean, people will say, oh, no, all of that bitcoin was pledged by tether. That's not true. We raised a little under a billion and a half dollars, and we did buy bitcoin with it. The catch, Natalie, is while the government was shut down, we technically couldn't buy bitcoin with the cash we had raised until we got approved. And so I asked Giancarlo and Tether and said, well, why doesn't Tether front us by buying the bitcoin themselves and then we'll pay tether back once we get approved. Because we wanted the bitcoin exposure right away, but we raised over a billion dollars, we bought over a billion dollars worth of bitcoin, we compiled the second largest treasury, we went public, we tried a thing and for all of those things, I'm immensely proud. Like I started a company that's public and has a chance to be one of the biggest bitcoin companies in the world. And I'm proud of that whilst also regretting that I laid out a vision and communicated publicly to people expectations that weren't met. I didn't. I would. I'd never been part of a board where I couldn't execute on what I thought was right. I had never been part of a capital markets in an infrastructure where things moved that slow. I mean I was used to strike. Strike works very simply. Bitcoin's very decentralized. Like strike's not. If we need to do something and I decide we do it, we do it. If we have a bug and customers are impacted and I say give every customer $20, that's what we do. And that's just not the way 21 worked. And so in hindsight I should have communicated differently. I think expectations could have been set better and ultimately what I said I was going to do, I couldn't, I couldn't do. And that is the part that I failed.
- [27:40]
Natalie
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- [28:55]
Jack Mallers
Yeah.
- [28:55]
Natalie
What do you say to them? And, I mean, I know you can't speak for the company, but they might be wondering, what is the roadmap? Should I stay invested?
- [29:04]
Jack Mallers
Well, I mean, hopefully you hear about the future of the business from the company itself, not from the guy that thought it was best for everyone involved to step down. And so I would expect the company to communicate that fairly soon, because if I was still leading it, that's what I would do. But, I mean, I. I would. I would say sorry is what I'm. I'm sorry it didn't work. I appreciate the support, and I'm sorry it didn't work. And it doesn't mean, you know, you see people say, oh, it's a rug pull. Well, it's not like the 43,514 Bitcoin aren't sitting in our proof of reserves. I mean, you could see them. So the money's there, the business is there. The equity is on the New York Stock Exchange. But, yeah, my involvement was no longer right. And it's a learn. You said authenticity, which I appreciate that. I take that as a compliment. But I think the word integrity also comes to mind. Humility. I view bitcoin as the money of humility, of integrity. That's what an auditable public ledger that no one can change. It's. It's integral. And. You know, my dad always told me the difference between a good man and a great man is the ability to do what is right, no matter how hard it is, because people mistaken, like not doing the right thing for not knowing what is right. That's. That's nonsense. We know in our bones and our heart what is right. Like, you know, that, you know, a ribeye steak is better for you than a pint of ice cream. You know in your heart that getting up and finding a way to the gym is better than lounging on the couch and eating chips. You know, that the difference between right and wrong is known. It's the ability to. To commit to doing what's right, despite how difficult it is. And I would. That's what I would say is I. I'm sorry it didn't work out the way that I wanted it to, but this was what was right, no matter how challenging. I mean, because, Natalie, obviously, I could have sold strike. I could have stayed the CEO and, like, you know, I could have Taken a gargantuan amount of money and perceived fame and access to the public markets and stuff, but that wouldn't have been what was. Right.
- [31:26]
Natalie
Yeah. You walked away from a pretty big compensation package, didn't you?
- [31:30]
Jack Mallers
Yeah, of course. I mean, I think my. I was just. Without the Strike piece. I was 3% owner of 21, which I no longer.
- [31:42]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [31:42]
Jack Mallers
So I don't know what's 21's worth? Billions of dollars. So that's. Hundred hundreds of millions of dollars. Something like that. And. And then Strike is an immensely valuable company, and I. I won't get into what people think it's worth. But. But, yeah, I mean, this was a moment where, you know, I say, you know, some things aren't for sale, and I talk about integrity and principles, but it's very rare that you are tested and tried on your claims.
- [32:10]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [32:11]
Jack Mallers
You know, how much do you believe in it when there is a real cost to holding those principles? And that was a very unique moment for me where it was like, okay, here's a blank check, and here's what you. Anything you want. Like, are you willing to. To sell out? And, you know, it was interesting is before I could even, like, reason it out, I found myself, like, I just couldn't. There's just no way. And you talk about some of the bitcoiners and experiences at conferences. It was a very, like. It was almost the universe working in a mysterious way. I was touring wedding venues with my fiance while some of this was happening. And so it was obviously a very emotionally complicated thing, because if I had to take a call, it was very sad, very disappointing. And you get angry and depressed. I don't know. Just don't want to let people down. I started this thing sucks. And then you go to our wedding venue where you might start your family, and they're like, wow, Mr. Millers, you want to have glass champagne? You're like, I guess, maybe. I guess feel a little guilty. Right. And so it's complicated. But on that trip. And so we were down the west coast, not to docks where we're going to get married, but we're up and down the West Coast. And somehow it was multiple times a day, every day for a week, people would come running up and say, are you Jack? You are the guy that got me to understand Bitcoin. Whereas my family that watched this one keynote, or I gave a keynote in Prague about that fiat in the world around you is what's struggling and that we're building a hopeful solution. It's like, you Made me realize that the problem isn't me, that I'm not a loser, that I'm not poor, that I'm not unworthy, is that we're in a difficult time and that there is a thing out there that's trying to fix it. And when you have these experiences and I realized. What Strike is and what I am to this community and not to everyone, you know, for all the people that like me, the people that hate me. But it was like, almost like. And they would say things like, you know, please don't. Like, whatever you do, we trust you. Just don't sell out. Don't give up control. You know, so it was almost this. Like, my story and Strike story is, can someone achieve and become successful and affect change without becoming compromised, without becoming part of Wall street, without becoming part of the state, without bending a knee? And in a weird way, just by being myself and trying to stay true to how I was raised and who I am, it's almost like an embodiment of that. And that's true for bitcoin as well. Like, can bitcoin go on to change the world without the world changing it? And I think that's, like, what's so attractive and drawn to this thing is that, like, no bitcoin can change the world because the world can't change bitcoin. And there's an attractiveness to. It's not going to bend and change for Wall street or for big corporations or for governments. And it was almost as if people, like, were cheering me on in a similar vein. And so it was a very, like, weird week for me, sitting with my fiance and having these conversations. And little do these people know just how meaningful those conversations were. But, yeah, ultimately, the decision for me was very obvious, is I don't need to be the biggest or own the most treasury or be on Wall street or be on the COVID of the magazines. And, you know, you almost get that culture engraved in you from Satoshi. Like, what level of humility, humility and lack of ego better expressed than that guy who just built something because he wanted it to exist and his focus was solely on making it work. And if there was money and fame that came with that, that that's a secondary property that, like, he can deal with later. And it turns out he wasn't interested in any of it. And then you think of people like Hal Finney or Andreas Antonopoulos, and I don't know. So at the end of the day, it became the obvious right choice if the business is taking on a New life. And, you know, I wasn't interested in merging in my stuff and compromising on what I believed in and, and inability to, you know, really degrade the way people trust in me, then I shouldn't. I shouldn't lead it. And it's right for what's for 21. It's right for its shareholders. And then it's also right for Strike, right for me, right for bitcoin. And I'm perfectly okay just being the best bitcoiner I can be. Not a serial entrepreneur, not a magazine cover, Forbes billionaire, this or that. I like building. Like, I think Strike can be the story that bitcoiners want to believe in, which is, can there be a company that doesn't shitcoin, that doesn't prediction market, that doesn't race to be public and build a board that gets complicated and build incentives that get all screwed up? Like, is there a bitcoiner and a bitcoin company that can just do the simple thing and commit to the hard thing and. And do it? And my. I mean, my ego, Natalie, has been eviscerated throughout my career. I'm proud of that because I'm still here. And. And so, yeah, it was also a realization living through that was also obviously very, very meaningful.
- [38:12]
Natalie
Your personal evolution through this is just fascinating. You made me think of a question, because a lot of people right now online are really hating against all the treasury companies.
- [38:21]
Jack Mallers
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Natalie
And the sentiment is just terrible. I've only been in a couple of these cycles, but it feels worse than even 2022. What do you say to people who are. Who are looking at all these companies and saying, bitcoin is going to be compromised no matter who it is running them, all of them are bad. It should just be bitcoin. We want to reject all the institutions, reject Wall street, reject the bitcoin treasury companies. Like, do you agree with that or what do you say to those critics?
- [38:48]
Jack Mallers
No. I view bitcoin as almost a public utility, where, you know, if I have a park down the street and I go there to have a picnic with my fiance, but then next to us is a dad and his kid playing catch with a baseball. Who's using the park properly? Well, no one and everyone. It's a park, it's a public utility. Bitcoin is a public ledger, public code, and you use it for what you want. As long as you're following the consensus rules, which are, you know, what governs the network and how the software works, then all is fair game. Now I. What I will say is I wrote an essay that I alluded to. It was really me sitting on my roof and trying to sift through these emotions. Because as bad as I'm getting my ass kicked right now, I remember getting my ass kicked arguably worse in 2022, and then before that, arguably worse in 2018. Because I've lived through these bear markets. And each time I, you know, I say in the essay, however good you think a bull market can get, trust me, it will get better. And however bad you think a bear market can get, trust me, it will get worse. Like, I knew rate hikes were going to come and bitcoin's price was going to crash in 2022. I did not think Sam Bankman Fried had defrauded $10 billion of the People's money and made Bernie Madoff look like a pet project. I never thought that. But the point is, in like such an honest system that is free of interference, free of central planning, you're experiencing the raw reality, the raw feet of the world without interruption. And so I think people can use Bitcoin for whatever they want. But these bear markets are ruthless in their ability to almost metabolize fat. It is, it is bitcoin's self governing system of shooing away false promises, leverage heroes that were only heroes when the price was rising. And it does it again and again and again. And the essay I write is trust me because I've lived it many a times. And then you arrive at this thing, well, what punishments then are not gifts? Because the fact that we have a system that can tell us the truth, you know, I equate it to mowing your lawn. You know, interfering in human intervention isn't inherently bad. My fiance wants florals for our wedding. You know, and it's like, is that bad that she wants, like, you know, perfectly set up flowers? Like, no, a human intervened wedding is probably appropriate. Or mowing your lawn, you want, you know, you know, lawns are not perfectly green carpets. If you let a lawn grow, seeds travel, animals disrupt it, the weather changes it, it grows unevenly. But if you want a perfect green carpet, it requires time, energy, and human intervention. But there are some things in life that we cannot intervene with the teacher, with truth. Like your doctor, if your doctor looked at your blood work and like, thought, oh, man, this is going to make Natalie uncomfortable. I'm going to smooth over the results and paper over it and intervene. I would say that's a bad doctor, because why, Natalie? Because the truth allows you to respond. The truth allows you to become better. The truth allows you to learn where if there's something wrong with your blood work or a scan, you need the truth to respond and improve. And I put money in that category. It's not your front lawn, it's not the florals of the wedding. It is incredibly important information that humans use to organize and facilitate society. And so what you see in bitcoin is ruthless truth. And truth is not always nice, but truth is respectful because it's enough respect to say, I believe that you can handle the real world and that you can change for the better because of it. And so bitcoin is, I wouldn't say bitcoin is nice and it's friendly, but it's respectful and it's truthful. And so what I see in these bear markets is ruthless amounts of truth. And so, I don't know, use bitcoin for whatever you want, but every now and then it's time to metabolize, time to burn the fat spring cleaning. And you'll learn a lot about yourself if you let bitcoin teach you well.
- [43:25]
Natalie
And you said last year, in 2025, you don't think that was like a real bull run. Now we're in a bear market. When do you think things will recover? And are we due for maybe a way better bull run than we had the last time around?
- [43:39]
Jack Mallers
Yeah, I don't. So I, I mean, bitcoin did not make new highs against gold. It did not make new highs. I mean, I view looking at the world in Fiat is like wearing drunk goggles. It's very distorting of reality. I would don't drink, drive, don't save in Fiat and drive. That's what I would. Because you're like, oh man, what lane am I in? So, yes, in dollar terms, did bitcoin make new all time highs? Sure. But measured in things that store value better, it did not. And I think the reasons for that, you know, I love all the macro analysts as much as the next gabbit. I'm not nearly as smart as all these folks. So I, I think of it much simpler. Monetary policy has been immensely restrictive since 2021. Rates have remained elevated because inflation has been stickier and more persistent than people thought. And the Fed's balance sheet has shrunk tremendously. And we saw some liquidity injected into the system as a result of Silicon Valley Valley bank failing. But that was this re repo. Janet Yellen Engineering. And so, I mean, when the Fed's balance sheet shrinks as much as it did and rates the fastest rate hike we've ever seen and it's persisted for as long as it's had because inflation is not willing to die. It makes sense to me that the last like real, real bull market, excuse me, was that Covid 2021. And so I think bitcoin is some combination of technology plus fiat liquidity. People say, well, is it a trade like a tech stock or trade like gold? Well, I think it's a hybrid and it deserves that hybrid because it is disruptive technology. It is software that solved a new problem that's creating new markets and disintermediating existing ones. And so that it is a technology, but it also is priced on future expectations of fiat liquidity. If the Fed, there's now rumors that the Fed might hike rates today. Well, bitcoin started to weaken. The Fed all of a sudden cuts 300 basis points. I think Bitcoin is going to hit 100k in a week. So it is, it is both. And so I think that will reach new, true, real all time highs in the coming years because I expect the expectation of new fiat liquidity and money printing and credit to greatly grow. And I think bitcoin's technology is more of a methodical story. The amount of addresses, the amount of active balances, the amount of new businesses that are using it will continue to disrupt as well.
- [46:22]
Natalie
So I want to hear about strike, but first I just have one more price question. Yeah, I've heard from a lot of folks who got in during that crazy bull run in like 2021 and we've basically made a round trip and they're just kind of feeling like it's too volatile. I basically could have put my money into stocks or something else and done way better with a little less stress. What do you say to the people that, you know, they, they're like primed to be bitcoiners. Prime to orange pill. We almost had them in 2021 and they've sort of faded away and now they're kind of looking at us like, you know, just issue after issue. I don't trust these treasury companies. The price is too volatile. Meanwhile, people have been predicting like one million dollar Bitcoin by 2030, which I don't think we're gonna. Sorry if this makes me bearish, but I don't know if we're gonna pan out that way. Of course it would be great if bitcoin surprised us. But what do you say to those people who just, they were sort of on the sidelines, started to nibble and then came out again.
- [47:20]
Jack Mallers
I, I mean, what do you want me to apologize for? I, I would say it's if you're here just to, you know, sorry if this is ruthless or borderline offensive, but if you're here for me to cradle you and take the pacifier out of your mouth and hand you the most performing thing, guys, there's no such thing. There's no free lunch. Yeah, you coulda, woulda, shoulda. So would I. I coulda, woulda, shoulda done something different at 21. I coulda, woulda, shoulda not made the merchant announcements I did in 2022. I coulda, woulda, shoulda, coulda, woulda, shoulda. But I, but that's not how life works. And I didn't. The point is we have a monetary asset that's free enough to tell us the truth that can change the world. Because the world can't change is the last honest signal that we get with like the raw and real world. It's made me a better man, it's made the world a better place. And it has historically been the best performing thing. Now over what time and duration? Like, you know, I tell my buddies in high school that we're scared of the volatility and the this. I say, guys, I told you to buy it here, it's now here. Because it didn't go in a straight line. You can get mad at me, who cares? It went like that doesn't matter. So, yes, could you have invested in Nvidia instead of Bitcoin, but then Bitcoin, if you in hindsight could have went from bitcoin, but then Nvidia for this time, but then back to Bitcoin and then you're right, you would have, you would have been like God amongst men. And if that's what you hold yourself accountable to, then God bless you, you're never going to be happy. I would touch grass, lift some heavy things, eat a steak and hang out with people you love. You're just never, I mean, what are we doing? So I assume the frustration comes from a place of, I mean consumer sentiment is all time lows. Yeah, this K shaped economy thing is real. You're seeing businesses now are very vocal with central planners in the Fed saying you have to raise rates and fight inflation because our customers are too poor to shop and people are in a significant amount of pain. And it's very difficult to understand whose fault that is and to internalize that. And so is it Bitcoin's fault? If you want it to be Bitcoin's fault. It's bitcoin's fault. But what is bitcoin? It is a. Yeah. Guaranteed monetary policy, guaranteed supply, which I expect over the long term to be the safest way to protect the work you've already done and save for the life that's ahead of you. I don't know what else to tell you. If you want to be a stock picker, I'm not convincing you otherwise. Godspeed, good luck. But I use bitcoin because I save in bitcoin because I don't want to be that. Yeah, like that's the thing. You see all the TikToks and all the YouTube videos of how to day trade, how to stock pick, what the portfolio, this or that. You know what I don't want to do, Natalie? All of that shit, I don't want to do any of it. I want to get married, I want to have kids. I like making bitcoin content and trying to help even the people that see me on the street and say thanks for that video. I like doing that. And I like building products for bitcoiners. And I like yesterday I played pickleball with my friends. That's what I like doing. And that's what bitcoins allowed me to do. And so if you want to pick stocks, Godspeed. But I Bitcoin's performance for me has been great. I expect it to continue to be so. I don't know.
- [50:53]
Natalie
No, I'm glad you put it that way. Again, that goes out for all the people who have come to me who I orange pilled at 60 something thousand in 2021. And yes, we made a round trip. It's been five years. I get it. But also, I mean we saw new all time high just last year. We're going to see a new all time high soon. So I think people need to not stress so much about short term volatility.
- [51:11]
Jack Mallers
And the other thing too is people need to appreciate you make a decision, you make a monetary decision what to monetize every day. It's not like I made a decision five years ago. And no, no, no, Natalie, I wake up every day and I think to myself, I have created X amount of value for society and I need to store it somewhere because I don't want to spend it and consume it today. Do I want to keep it in bitcoin or would I rather put it in this equity or that? And every day I wake up and I do the little cold, the little cold ice bucket, I dump my face. I do actually. And I Dump in there. And I'm like, you know what? Bitcoin's still the best thing for me. And so, you know, I would encourage people to. Okay, sure. The Fed has had persistently high rates, balance sheet has shrunk. Monetary policy has been like, fairly tight for a long duration of time. And you're starting to see cracks in the system. Sure, you're right. And bitcoin has not. Whatever, fine, Wake up tomorrow and see if you would rather own, I don't know, Facebook stock. And you want to start to follow Zuckerberg and what, how much debt he's accumulating and how they're going to pay back. You go ahead. But like, don't, don't mistaken this as like, I'm betting the next five years of my life. No, you're not. Every day just wake up. And if it's encouraging for other people, I wake up every day and go, you know what? I know no one can print any more bitcoin. I know they can't take it from me. I know that it's mine to own and the property rights engraved in that. It's not like Chicago can increase the property taxes on my Bitcoin. It's 12 words in my head. So the 12 words in my head, they're safe, they're mine. They can't debase and print any more of that. And my thesis remains that they're going to have to print more, fiat and debase things. And the most accessible. I don't, I don't want to own piles of gold in my guest bedroom. I don't want to do that. And so if that's encouraging for folks, I don't know, it's pretty simple for me though. I'd be shocked if everyone's like, I'd rather be a day trader. I don't know if that's true.
- [53:19]
Natalie
Well said. All right, well, now that your focus is back on Strike, what's the plan and roadmap?
- [53:24]
Jack Mallers
Yeah, well, it's funny, my focus never left Strike, obviously doing two things. You know, I had lesser time than I do now, but strike is, man, the lord's gift to me, Satoshi's gift to me. I mean, I mean, I have full control over the business is profitable, growing. I mean, what, we're 50% off highs and strike has over $100 million of Bitcoin on its balance sheet. So assuming bitcoin hits new all time highs, we'll have at least a quarter billion dollars with less than 100 people working there. And we, our bitcoin per share goes up every day because we produce profit. And so it's an. I'm unbelievably proud that me and the folks that have built it with me figured that out and are the bitcoin business that is unwilling to compromise. Ruthlessly authentic and principled and focused. And so what's next is whatever bitcoiners need. I mean we want to. It was always interesting for me because I didn't start Strike when I got into bitcoin. I started Strike many years into my bitcoin journey. Let's count. I got into Bitcoin 2013, I started strike. I mean it depends, maybe 20, 20, 2021. It depends on when you count. But it's a long time difference. And it was because, you know, I, I thought Mount Gox was going to be the bitcoin company for the world when I first got into bitcoin and then I thought it was going to be Coinbase and then I thought, man, Binance seems to like be printing money out of thin air. They're going to figure it out. And then FTX and Sam Bankman Fried was smarter than I was. And you realize that like it's actually very hard to just focus on bitcoin. Be the simple thing, not need to be the biggest, not need to be the best, not need to have, you know, the most venture raise. And all this stuff is just like a business's biggest competitor are their costs. Because if you don't earn more than you spend, then the future of your business is not up to you anymore. And so it was like, let's just focus on that and let's just build things. Because bitcoiners were coming to me and saying, you know, I just need a place where I, I can reliably buy it without a bunch of shitcoins in my face or crazy fees. And then we realized, okay, they also need to borrow against their bitcoin. Okay, they also need distributed multi sig custody. Okay, we did it for Americans and it's been very successful. And now Europeans want it and then they want in the UK and then Canada. And then what we've done just by being principled and being bitcoiners and being simple is built this like global bitcoin bank, bitcoin financial institution. So that's what's next. Pretty simple. But I mean there's, there's features here and there, but we launch things every week and just going to keep, keep, keep trucking the honest path.
- [56:10]
Natalie
I've recently heard people on Twitter say that the majority of people, the mainstream world has rejected self custody. Do you agree with that or what's your argument against it?
- [56:25]
Jack Mallers
I maybe agree with it. I mean, self custody is, I don't view it as like a religion or something that you, you can or cannot reject. Like there could be someone who owns bitcoin on a custodial platform that also supports self custody, just maybe doesn't enact it for themselves. I, I think it's incredibly important that you can self custody at any point. It keeps businesses honest, it keeps the network honest. And then it's obviously the only way bitcoin can ultimately be successful. The reason gold was demonetized in the first place is it was all sitting in concentrated vaults. So, you know, with all that being said, you know, I actually think about bitcoin adoption a little differently. This might be controversial, but, you know, I was having this conversation with my fiance, you know, put us back in the wedding venue and, and she's watching people come up to us during dinner and I was like, you know, Meg, people say that bitcoin adoption is at 1% globally, and that's such bullshit because if there's 8 billion people on the planet, that means 80 million people have like a vague relative understanding of this thing. There's. We're not even close to that. And what they'll say is, yeah, but like proxied relationship through the ETF or through this security and there's a wraparound. A wraparound, A wraparound, A wrapper. So it's technically 0.7% of their 401k has exposure to bitcoin. Like that's not adoption. Who thinks that's reasonably adoption? On what planet is that adoption? Because as soon as some money manager or some fund manager or some portfolio manager flips a switch the other way because someone else got elected president or whatever, then they're unadopted. That doesn't make any sense. Like, you can't unadopt me from bitcoin. Like, I get it now, whether I want to one day sell it or whatever, that's everybody. I understand it. And so I would say the people that like, have a vague relative understanding of like, what is money? And like, why does this thing exist? And like, how is it different than the dollar, Natalie? 80 million. Like, I don't even think we're at 8 million. I would say we're closer to 800,000 and that's being generous. And so I would say then we're like a basis point of what I would consider to be Adoption. So, and I'm being honest and, and you know, part of that conversation is my fiance being like, well then it doesn't sound like anyone is growing that level of adoption and so why don't you. And it was part of the 21 conversation of like, yeah, I don't know how much money I'll make by creating bitcoin content and orange pilling and doing more keynotes at conferences. But she's right, that's what I care about and growing that number. So to bring it back to your initial question, where, where does owning Bitcoin and self custody slide on that scale? If someone understands Bitcoin or gets why it exists and understands money and what fiat currency has done as destruction to society, but they own the blackrock etf. I'm not that, I'm not mad about that. I'm okay with that. They can self custody if they want. They sell that, buy bitcoin on strike free withdrawals to cold storage. But I'm more, I'm more focused on like do people understand what money is? Yeah. And like get what's going on and understand that like money is human dignity. And so it is a violation, it is an affront to, to our dignity for people to be printing the thing that we're busting our ass for. And so I just don't like majority of the world has violated or, or would you say rejected self custody? The majority of the world doesn't understand and that's like the first thing we have to.
- [60:09]
Natalie
Well that's a great point. I mean those numbers really do put it into perspective. So I mean, do you think we've made a lot of progress in the short amount of time bitcoin has existed or do you feel like we're really behind, like more people should be understanding, like how do we reach those people? Because you're saying, I mean like the total addressable market, 8 billion.
- [60:25]
Jack Mallers
We've made an immense amount of progress. And it, this is a, you know what, what KPI, what key performance indicator matters? Well, people will say things like I'm not in it for the price, I'm in it for the technology. Get the fuck out of here. The price is the only thing that matters. It's the only metric that matters. And what I mean by that is Bitcoin is actively being monetized by more and more people. And how can I track that? How much? So going back to what I said earlier, how much of when I wake up on a given day and I say, you know what the time energy effort and labor that I need to save, I'm going to pick that one, the bitcoin one. Not the dollar, not a Treasury, not a basket of equity index. I'm going to pick the bitcoin one. That's me making a conscious decision to store my cash balances in my human labor and wealth I've created in bitcoin. And that's reflected in the price. And so when the price goes up, it is a reflection of adoption of people at the margins deciding, I'm going to pick this one. And so the price is the only KPI that matters. And so the fact that bitcoin now is the fact that a basis point of people have a vague understanding of money and like, why bitcoin is different and like can appreciate and may even have a chance at making that decision in the first place. Sure. But a trillion dollar asset, that KPI means we've made a lot of progress. Because sure, maybe the amount of people that are making these decisions is small relative to the S, but the amount of wealth making that decision, you see that there's difference. Now that goes to show the wealth disparity throughout the world is that the 8 billion people don't split the wealth evenly, unfortunately. And so there's some tail there where like, you might get to 1% global adoption and Bitcoin might be a $25 trillion asset. What does that mean? And is it benefiting everyone? Is this innovation and how it's liberating and how free it is, is that going to be felt equally? Now, these are much more complicated philosophical questions, but I don't want people thinking that we're not making progress because. But you know, when you go back to do I want to be the king of Wall street and on the COVID of magazines and in leading public companies. No, I actually, I don't need that. For me, I actually am okay with. I actually think that there's a lot of work to do in getting that one basis point to two basis points because Coinbase isn't making what is money videos. Is it making Austrian theory videos? And the amount of wealth that will continue to monetize. Bitcoin is a separate metric. And I think we've made an ungodly amount of progress.
- [63:12]
Natalie
I love that framing so much because we do. We have a lot of work to go. But we can't forget how many lives have been impacted by the work that's been done by bitcoiners like you.
- [63:21]
Jack Mallers
And like you. I mean, it's the coolest part is like, it's a shared project which is great and we all benefit from each other's success. So it's hardly competitive. But yeah, like bitcoin can become a 10, $20 trillion asset which for everyone listening, that's 10 to 20x from where it is today. So that's a whatever half a million dollar bitcoin to a $5 million bitcoin very easily while remaining under what I'm considering 1% adoption.
- [63:49]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [63:49]
Jack Mallers
Because a lot of the people that manage the wealth around the world, you know, in a numerical relative to the total population is a small group and those people are understanding bitcoin and bitcoin is plenty ready to be monetized at that scale and I think it will over the coming years. But yeah, like adopt adoption, like when I hear you say, well, the majority are. People are claiming that the mainstream public has rejected. Mainstream public doesn't know jack shit about what we're talking about. Let's just be honest, who do we need to lie to? And that's exciting. That's, that's like, to me, that's like worth building for. That's worth focusing on. I'm not going to list coins on strike. I'm not going to launch prediction market. I'm going to spend majority of my new free time like doing more content. I'm doing, doing these podcasts, going out, creating keynotes. That is the feedback I've gotten on where my value now is that going to make me the richest man in the world. I don't care. I don't care. I don't. And it's one thing to say that and like beat your chest about it and claim you have principles and then it's another to live it. And that is what was very heavy and complicated about my recent experience is like the universe asked me like, are you who you say you are?
- [65:09]
Natalie
Yeah. Well. And it sounds like you're with someone who's bringing out the best in you, which I'm really happy for you. Jack, we've covered a lot of ground in this interview. Anything we didn't touch on, anything you really want to mention?
- [65:18]
Jack Mallers
You're the expert, you tell me. I feel good.
- [65:21]
Natalie
I think we did a great job. Thanks for starting stopping here first.
- [65:23]
Jack Mallers
Yeah.
- [65:23]
Natalie
This will be out as quickly as possible because everyone wants to hear from you. Jack. Jack Mallers, thank you so much.
- [65:29]
Jack Mallers
Thanks.
- [65:30]
Natalie
Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. This show is for entertainment and educational purposes only. Nothing should constitute as official investment advice. And you should always do your own research. My inbox is open. If you want to share feedback or guest suggestions, just reach out to us@infoalkingbitcoin.com make sure you're subscribed and turn those notifications on so you never miss new content. I'll see you next time.