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Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
James Sexton: World's Top Divorce Lawyer on Money in Relationships and Why 71% of Marriages Fail
01:09:16
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- [00:00]
A
I always tell people there's really two amounts of money. Enough and not enough. And if a billion's not enough, 5 billion's not gonna be enough. It becomes a horizon that forever recedes because there will always be someone with more money than you.
- [00:13]
B
Do you feel like having more money makes a couple happier?
- [00:15]
A
No. Economic scarcity and economic distress is very bad for a marriage. But I think it reaches a point of diminishing returns because the underlying illness is disconnection. The straw that breaks the camel's back sometimes is money, sometimes it's infidelity, sometimes it's a comb of both of those things. Really, the root cause is the disconnection, because happy people don't cheat. Hey, everyone.
- [00:45]
B
Welcome back to the show. Joining me this week is James Sexton. He is arguably the world's most famous divorce attorney. And we're gonna be talking about money and marriage, right?
- [00:55]
A
Absolutely.
- [00:56]
B
It's great to have you. Thank you.
- [00:57]
A
It's great to be here.
- [00:58]
B
Thanks so much for joining me.
- [00:59]
A
Absolutely.
- [01:00]
B
So money in marriage, is that a major issue for couples?
- [01:04]
A
Yeah, I mean, money, I think it's not just money. It's what money symbolizes for people. I think money for a lot of people symbolizes, you know, security, stability. If you grow up without money, I think money comes to symbolize all the things that you wish you had, you know, safety, a feeling of value. So, you know, money is obviously an important thing. Right. We all need money for our needs and for us to feel safe in some ways and for us to be able to do the things we want to do and go the places we want to go and have the things that we need and that our children might need or want. But, you know, it's also what's underneath the money. Like money for a lot of people has come to symbolize safety, security, and the feeling that in a world where there's so much out of control that, that this is like a way for us to have some control over what's going on in our day to day life.
- [01:54]
B
So the couples you've worked with, do you feel like if you have trauma, maybe in your young life, maybe you didn't have money, do you bring that into the relationship and that do things kind of unw mind at some point?
- [02:05]
A
Yeah, that's well said. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I think that if you grow up with economic scarcity, you both a have a desire to not have that in your marriage. So you're like repelled by it or allergic to it. Also, you've come to then sort of fetishize money. Like, oh, if I had it, I wouldn't feel all the things I felt when I was a kid and we didn't have money. Like, I felt embarrassed and I felt less than. So if I have money, I'll feel more than and I'll feel successful. And then you have money and you realize, I just have money. Like it's not, you know, money is, in some ways, it's real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems. Like, I'm lonely. You know, that's a real problem. Money can buy you access to places where there's lots of people, but that doesn't really solve the problem of loneliness. Right. So, like, money can give you a real solution to an imaginary problem or an imaginary solution to a real problem. But I often tell clients because I, you know, I represent billionaires, I represent people who are generational wealth and I represent people that are sort of newly wealthy. And I always tell people there's really two amounts of money enough and not enough, and that's it. And if a billion's not enough, 5 billion is not going to be enough. And if 200 million is enough, then probably 100 million would have been enough too. So there's sort of a point that people reach where the money becomes just a way to keep score and there will always be someone with more money than you.
- [03:33]
B
Do you notice something about those people where they have a ton, I mean, arguably more than the majority of people around them, but yet they can't find that happiness and they're always trying to get even more.
- [03:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think that it becomes a horizon that forever recedes because you're starting to compare it to the people around you. And if you're ultra wealthy, you're usually surrounded by other ultra wealthy people because the places where you go are places where people have lots and lots of money. So if you spend time on Shelter Islands or in various parts of the Hamptons where very wealthy people congregate, you're just going to look around like it's kind of like being in a bar with a bunch of alcoholics and going, well, I'm not an alcoholic. I mean, I only drink as much as everybody else in here. And it's great because you're in a room full of alcoholics. So if you're in a room full of people who all have hundreds of millions of dollars and the things that they're talking about, like where they go on vacation and how they got to where they go on vacation, what type of jet they have or, you know, where their children go to school. Those are indicators of wealth that start to just become like, whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. You know, you're just in this ecosystem where everybody has so much that you start to think like, oh, everybody has something similar to this, but there's always someone that has a little bit more. And, you know, that's the part that I think becomes very. It's just a need that'll never be fully satisfied for a lot of people. And so that's why I'm always encouraging people to think a little bit about, like, what's underneath that desire for money. Because it's not the thing. It's the thing underneath.
- [04:59]
B
Right. Well, given your clientele, do you feel like having more money makes a couple happier?
- [05:03]
A
No, no. I think that. I think scarcity. I mean, the statistics all bear out that economic scarcity and economic distress is very bad for a marriage. So, like, not having enough money to meet your financial needs and those of your children causes incredible personal stress and then interrelational stress. So there. There have been tons of studies that if you really, as a society, if we wanted to help the divorce rate go down and the marriage satisfaction rate go up, we would make sure people had better economic security. Because one of the biggest indicators of someone's likelihood of divorce is a. They don't have a college education. People without a college education, which is the majority of Americans, don't have a college education. They have the highest divorce rate, higher than people who graduated college, and people who are in a lower socioeconomic level have a higher instance of divorce. So if you really cared about, as a culture, people staying married, you would actually do things to help them economically so that they wouldn't have those stressors on the marriage. But I think it reaches a point of diminishing returns where once you've got too much. I wouldn't say too much money, but once you have a certain level of economic stability, there are certain parts of divorce that get kind of easy, and they make it really easy to eject out of an unhappy relationship. Like, most people, even with economic abundance, couldn't buy a second Hamptons house or a second penthouse apartment in Manhattan, you know, or a second G wagon. But if you're wealthy enough, you can go, you know what? I'm moving out. I can give away half of everything I have, and I'll still be fine. Like, if you have $500 million, you'd be all right with 250. Like, you're not going to, you know, you're not going to be shopping at Costco. You'll be okay. So I think what, what ends up happening is there's a tipping point where economic scarcity is just no longer in your line of sight. But then there's another tipping point where there's such abundance that now money doesn't really have that much of a meaning. And it doesn't create any incentive for people to say, hey, let's try to figure this out so that we don't have to, like, take a step down or our children don't have to take a step down.
- [07:14]
B
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- [09:10]
A
See, it's always really hard to answer those kinds of questions. They're like a super reasonable question to ask. Like, how many divorces is infidelity caused it? How many is it economic stress that's caused it? For me, the problem is I see those things as symptoms of the underlying illness. And the underlying illness is this connection. And so two people meet. There's 8 billion other options in the world. You meet this person and you go, okay, you're my person. You're my favorite person. You're the person that I want to just hold hands in this thing and let's just do it together and try to figure it out. And it's still going to be scary, but it'll be less scary because we'll have each other. Nicest, most worthwhile sentiment in the whole wide world. And you don't mean to lose the plot, but most people lose the plot. Like most people, 53 or so percent of marriages end in divorce. Another 5 to 10% separate but never divorce, so they're not scooped up in those divorce statistics. And then another of that beyond that, 10 to 20%, according to the latest research, say they regret marrying their spouse and don't like their spouse. So you're talking about something that when you add it up, about 70 some percent of the time you're not gonna get where it was you set out to go. Like you didn't set out to hate this person or divorce them. You set out saying, this is my favorite person. There's 8 billion of them in the world, and I'm picking this one. And you didn't do that because you didn't like the person you did it. Cause you have strong good feelings about this person. So people lose the plot. And the straw that breaks the camel's back sometimes is money, sometimes it's infidelity, sometimes it's a combination of both of those things. But it's really the root cause is the disconnection that led people to. Because happy people don't cheat. Happy people who have a deep connection to their spouse have an ability to have transparency about money. Because whether they make a good financial choice or a bad financial choice, they have the ability to share with their partner, hey, I made a mistake, but I made it in good faith or, hey, I made this great Investment. And look at how well it's doing. And their partner's proud of them. Instead of saying, like, oh, my God, you took all this risk. Why would you take risk? So they see it as a point of connection. And look, we all know that, like, when we were dating, you know, when you first meet your partner, everything they do is kind of adorable. You know, like, if they snort when they laugh, you know, you're like, oh, my God, she snorts. When she laughs, it's so cute. Five years into the relationship, you know, it's like, oh, my God, with the snorting already, you know, like, and with the breathing in and out all the time, like, you start to have this sense that this person's just annoying you or you're annoying them. And that's really the opposite of the amount of grace we give each other when we first meet and connect. And, like, we're sort of intoxicated by the newness and the connection of each other. So I think that's where, like, money stuff is, of course, a source of great stress for people. I mean, most people spend the majority of their day trying to figure out how to get money right. Like, I mean, Most people spend five days a week looking forward to two. Most people spend 50 weeks a year looking forward to two. Yeah, it's a really weird thing. Like, it's a really weird ratio. Like, if you say to most people you're going to play a game with the majority of your time, the goal of which is having the ability to stop playing the game.
- [12:33]
B
Crazy.
- [12:34]
A
That's a weird game.
- [12:35]
B
I know.
- [12:35]
A
It's a weird system.
- [12:37]
B
Well, let's talk a little bit about financial compatibility, because I would imagine you see couples where one person likes to spend, one person likes to see save. One person has certain ambitions and goals, maybe the other person doesn't. Like, how do those dynamics work?
- [12:50]
A
Yeah, that's the right question to ask. I mean, look, I think at first there's a lot to be said for polarity, right? Like, when you meet somebody, I'm, you know, super organized and I'm super disciplined, and I'm super, like, decisive. And so very often, like, I wouldn't attract someone who has those same characteristics because if they wanted to date themselves, they could, you know, like, and I don't want to date somebody. Just, like, I don't need any help being disciplined and focused and decisive. Like, if anything, I might clash with someone who's like that. So I've always found myself attracted to women who allow me to be decisive and who find My decisiveness and my sort of dominant way of looking at things and wanting to provide and protect like that. They find that compelling. They find it charming or romantic. And so I like women who might be a little deferential when it comes to certain things or who might find it romantic that I like to be that way.
- [13:44]
B
They don't want to compete with you.
- [13:45]
A
Right. So it's a polarity between the two of us. They like the parts of me that are different from the parts of them and vice versa. I mean, and that kind of makes sense to me, you know, because men and women complete each other in some ways and. And we're different, and those differences are what we attract to each other. Right. So I get that. But the problem is that's charming when you're dating someone. Like, you know, I'm very focused and very into work, and it's nice to date someone who's like, hey, come on, like, let's go play. Like, you've worked enough today. Like, let's go. And if I'm dating someone who's like, just wants to play and enjoy life and all those things, I might be helpful in being like, all right, we can play later, but you gotta do X, Y and Z first. Come on. Like, you know, like, we can't play all the time. We also. Let's finish these things and then we can go play. So we bring out the best at each other. We sort of, you know, she softens me, and I maybe get her to be a little more focused. That's when you're dating. After a while, that starts to be like that polarity that initially made the two of you really compatible, it can start to be a problem in the relationship. Because eventually, you know, a person who's, for example, like a saver if they're with someone who's a big spender initially, that can be really appealing. Like, hey, you're going to help me not be so hyper focused on savings, and I'm going to help you be a little more responsible with money. But now we've, like, built a home together, we have a family together, the stakes feel higher and that luster of our initial connection starts to change or shift. So now it turns into something where it's like, we're annoyed at each other for the way we were. Like we were as advertised. Like, I haven't changed, you haven't changed. But now the thing that we used to find kind of a fun polarity has turned into something that, like, it annoys the other person, makes them feel stifled and so, you know, I think that that happens all the time. And money is a very big example of that for couples.
- [15:37]
B
How do successful couples manage money? Like, who manages it, who spends it? Who runs the bank account? Do you combine finances? Does someone pay for the. Like, how does that work? And does it depend on whether the woman is also working like the man?
- [15:50]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think there's no one size fits all for relationships. I think when it comes, it's like saying, like, how often should people have sex? Like, okay, I don't know for your relationship. Like, it might be unique to your relationship. What I would say is use as a litmus test. When you first got together and you felt really good about each other, what is it you were doing? Like, if that financial dynamic, if he always picked up the check when you were dating, then maybe that's a dynamic that worked for the two of you. And now if something has changed off of that, it's worth saying, hey, why did this change? Like the example that you gave where both people in the relationship are working and creating streams of income for one person to then say, okay, I'm in charge of the money, so you give me your income and I'll take my income, and then I'm in charge of the money. There might be some people that would say, listen, I kind of enjoy making money, but I don't really enjoy the part of, like, figuring out where it should all go and how to invest it. So I love my job, and I like doing that part. So I'll just, like, hand you the money. That's great. Like, if that's the dynamic that works for the two of you. There are plenty of couples where a person says, yeah, I don't really care about money. Like, I'm not interested in it. I don't find it fun. But if you find it fun, fill your boots. Like, knock yourself out. Like, I. I look at it like a better metaphor because it's less emotionally loaded. Is cooking. Like, I love to cook. I really enjoy cooking. Now, if someone was to say, should one person have to do all the cooking in the relationship? I mean, off the cuff, I would say, well, no, that seems unfair. Okay, but. But, like, if I love to cook and you don't like to cook, should you have to do half the cooking a half the time doing something you don't like? And half the time I don't get to do something I really enjoy? Like, we're both a lot worse off in that equation. But should you know how to cook enough that if I'm away. That you could cook for yourself, I think. So, like, you're a grownup. You have to know how to take care of yourself. If I want to go away for a week, I don't want you to be like, well, I guess I have to get takeout every night. So it might be useful even if you're not into money. Like, I might enjoy investing. I might enjoy personal finance. I might enjoy researching investments and, you know, sort of managing where our profile is and changing it around and reshifting things based on where we are in life or what expenses we have coming up or what markets are doing. And you might find that totally uninteresting. But God forbid something happens to me, you should know where our money is, right? So I think that it really, again, comes down to there's no one size fits all approach. There's no substitute for open, honest dialogue about, what do you like to do? Do you feel safe? Like, I tend to believe that you can't really feel loved if you don't feel safe. I think I've represented a lot of victims of intimate partner abuse, domestic violence, coercive control. And it's taught me that you can't feel truly loved if you don't feel safe. And safety isn't just physical safety. It's emotional safety. It's financial safety. So part of feeling safe, I think, is open communication, even about things that a person might not be interested in. Like, you might not be interested in understanding cryptocurrency, but at least understand how it works in a basic way. If it makes up a portion of our portfolio, at least understand the basics of it. Because if anything ever happens to me this way, you understand where things are. Or at least we can have an occasional conversation. Like, there's a lot. I mean, anyone who's in relationships knows there's certain things that they might not be interesting to you, but if they're super interesting to your partner, your excitement about it excites me. You know? Like, my. Like, I've been in relationships where I don't really care about World cup soccer at all, but if you're so into it that you're like, oh, my God, it's. I can't wait to walk. Well, your excitement excites me. So tell me about it. Go ahead. Like, I'll listen. Like, it's fun to see you excited about something, and you don't care about Game of Thrones, and I get excited about that. So, okay, you'll listen to me talk about, you know, the Targaryens And I'll listen to you talk about FIFA. And none of us are any worse off for that.
- [19:50]
B
So should a couple be very open, then, like, here's my bank account. Here are my books. Here's what I'm spending on. Here's my debt that I have. When you get married, does all that go on the table?
- [20:00]
A
Well, look, I'll tell you, first of all, I think when you, when you marry someone, with or without a prenup, and we'll get into prenups in a second, but with or without a prenup, there's a set of rules that's gonna apply to you. Now, what I like is every marriage has a prenup. It's either a prenup that was written by the government and can be changed by the government with or without your permission, or it's a prenup that was written by you and this person that you like more than the other 8 billion options. Personally, I've been to the DMV. I've never walked into the DMV and went, oh, yeah, these people should be in charge of everything. Like, they've got it knocked. These are really the best and brightest people in the world working here. So I've never trusted the government to be the ones to make the rules for the economic aspects of marriage. I think to do that would be crazy. Like, if you, whatever side of the political spectrum anybody is on, if you look at a timeline of the last 20 years, at some point you looked at the presidency or you looked at the administrations that were in charge and went, they don't know what the hell they're doing. And so why would you let them write the rules of your marriage and change the rules of your marriage? When it comes to money, prenups are binding, they're enforceable, and they allow you and your soon to be partner to make economic, structural decisions. Now, I like that. I like knowing what the rules of the game I'm playing are like. I'm a fan of that, and I think it makes it easier for people to make it, you know, intelligent decisions. What's the easiest economic system? Again, what's the right one for any individual couple is between the people in that couple. But what makes sense to me is one that is easy to manage and easy to understand. So the one I talk about in my book, I have a chapter called Yours, Mine and the Financial System that Works. And I think that at the core of every relationship, there's the you, the me, and the we, right? And that's what every good marriage is. There's you and there's me. And when we met each other, that's all we were, is you and me. And then we found we. And the we is like that Venn diagram, that little overlapping part. And it's so warm and wonderful and lovely that you're like, oh, my God, I never want to leave it. I just want to stay right here in the we. And I. Well, the danger of that is I fell in love with you and you fell in love with me. So if you and me vanish into the we, then you've taken away the thing I love and I've taken away the thing you love. So that's not great. So you want to make sure there's still some you and there's still some me and that there's lots of we, that we can enjoy that overlap. Economically, I think it's the same thing. Like, if our finances are totally separated, then, yeah, I think that's an imbalance of sorts. Unless, again, we're the kind of couple that feels like, oh, no, no, we really like having that separateness. I think as long as two people are happy and they're consenting adults, and it doesn't scare the horses, do whatever the hell you want. But. But if most people, they want some overlap, they want some sense of shared destiny or shared investment. But if our finances are totally intertwined with total transparency, I buy you a birthday present, you know exactly what I paid for it. There's no way to surprise each other.
- [23:12]
B
That's true.
- [23:12]
A
So I think that there's a level of privacy. There are women who I've seen naked, who I've never went through their purse, because I don't think that that's. That's the right thing to do. There's a certain modicum of privacy, even between intimate partners, because we're autonomous human beings who have our own rights to have a little bit of privacy. And there's also something, I think, kind of sexy about a little bit of privacy and a little bit of mystery. And it's part of the dynamic of men and women is that there's a little bit about each other that we don't know, and that makes it very, very appealing. So I think that that financial system works for people. When you have this idea of there's you, there's me, and there's we, because assets or liabilities, it still creates this ability to make, you know, because, again, what people don't like about. For example, when you create a prenup that says there's you know, if it's yours. Meaning if it's your name, it's yours. Asset or reliability? If it's in my name, it's mine. Asset or liability. And if it's in our joint names, we'll split it 50. 50. Asset or liability? Very clean way to do a prenuptial agreement. Some people go, oh, yeah, but then we're gonna have to have, like, really hard discussions whenever there's a big financial decision. I'm like, yeah, if you can't have hard discussions with this person, don't marry them. If you're gonna marry someone, you're gonna have to have hard discussions once in a while, you know, so life's gonna throw stuff at you. So it might be useful to know, what does the structure of that look like?
- [24:39]
B
So what if you didn't sign a prenup? Can you sign a postnup?
- [24:42]
A
Sure. People can do a postnup. I mean, postnup's a little harder to negotiate because you don't really have. Unless both people are really on board with it, and both people agree, hey, this would be good for our relationship, which sometimes happens. I do a good amount of postnups where two people went, you know what? We probably should have had some structure, and we didn't, so let's do that now. It's just harder to do. Like, because when you're doing a prenup, it's okay. Look, if we're gonna marry, I'd like to understand the rule set. Let's talk about what that would be, and if we can come to an agreement on it, we can get married. If not, then we don't have to get married. That's okay.
- [25:18]
B
Do most people get prenups?
- [25:21]
A
I'll tell you. I mean, I can't say most people, because the problem is prenups are not tracked anywhere. Like, they're not filed anywhere. They're not registered anywhere. The only time anyone knows a prenup exists is when it's used in a divorce filing. So I will tell you, there are a lot of people that have prenups that never admit that they have prenups. Like, I've done prenups for celebrities that I've then read a People magazine article or seen them on tv, asked the question, did you guys do a prenup? And they go, oh, no. We love each other. We have trouble. And I'm like, they did, because they signed it at my conference room table, and it's in my safe. Like, if TMZ could break into My safe, they would have a field day because I've got so many people's prenups and their separation agreements that they're already separated and nobody knows they're separated cuz they still walk the red carpet together. Like there's a whole lot of public bullshit and private reality that's out there. So prenups are way more common than you would think. And I will say young people now, 20s, 30s, prenups have become much more normalized. People are much more pragmatic. I think there's been a shift in gender roles and the gender dynamic of the workplace. And women are coming to the transaction with more assets, with more sophistication financially. More women are graduating from undergraduate college than men presently. There's more women graduating from law school than men presently. So there's definitely a level now of hey, we're, we're entering to this transaction, like, let's have a rule set, you know. And again, I think it's one of those things that I'm really glad that it's like therapy. I'm glad it's getting normalized. It's something that people were doing, but they were just sort of, you know, like hiding that they did it. And now people are saying, oh yeah, of course we had a prenup.
- [27:05]
B
Well, I'm glad you brought up the changing gender roles because I know a lot of women who are the breadwinner or they came into the marriage with more. Do you find that that creates a problematic dynamic ever with the relationship? Because sometimes the man, you know, the man wants be the provider.
- [27:19]
A
I mean, my experience is I see a lot of women who date up and a lot of men economically and a lot of men who are very comfortable dating down. Like, there are a lot of men that are very comfortable dating parallel like, oh, I'm a partner in a firm and she's a partner in a firm, or she's in finance and I'm in finance and they're very comfortable with that. I don't know as many men that date up. Like, I don't know as many successful men who date up. I know a lot of like the musician with the oops, I didn't know I was sexy stubble who's trying to like make it in music and he's dating a partner at Goldman who's female. And like, that's sort of the aspiration. What's the equivalent of the Goldman partner dating a yoga teacher? Like you sort of date a person who's like, they're not making any money, but they're really fun and cool or sexy, and you're very successful. And that's kind of what each of you brings to this economy of the relationship. What you find with women, in my experience, especially doing prenups, is they tend to date men who are at the same or higher economic level, which is interesting because it's kind of like women like to date men who are taller than them, but women wear a lot of heels, so they're actually kind of higher already. So now you need somebody who's even taller than you are in heels. So I think that what you do see is when you have a couple where both people are economically successful in their own right, and then the woman experiences some economic distress, it doesn't cause as much strain on the relationship as when you have equal, like, men and women are both successful in the relationship. The man loses his job or has some issue that creates a tremendous stress in the relationship, not because the woman loses respect for the man, but because the man loses respect from himself and very often doesn't know how to handle the fact that now she's the breadwinner and he's secondary. And so that leads to substance use, stuff that leads to, like, depression, all anxiety, all kinds of issues that then screws up the relationship. So I do see a lot of that. I see guys who were doing really well, and then all of a sudden, something changes in their economic circumstances, and they end up in relationship distress. But it's not that, like, oh, he was making money and now he's not, so I'm out of here. On the woman's end, it's very often that the guy now feels like a sort of, like, emasculated feeling. Oh, I used to be a protector and a provider, and now I can't really do those things. What the hell value do I bring to this relationship? I suck.
- [29:45]
B
Yeah. What do you think is the biggest mistake that couples make when it comes to money?
- [29:50]
A
I think people. I think anytime people lie, you know, to each other, it's bad. I think the most dangerous lies, though, are the ones we tell ourselves, because then we're lying to the other person. We don't even realize it. And so I think when people aren't honest with themselves, like people, you know, I think Warren Buffett's the one who said, fall in love with your spouse, not your investments. Like, because sometimes people really do, like, get so caught up with a particular investment that they just go, no, I'm holding onto this stock. And it's like, okay, every metric is telling you, this is no longer a good stock. You gotta let it go. And they just are irrationally, emotionally entangled with this particular investment. So I think that when that happens, that can sometimes cause tremendous stress between two people because again, you're lying to yourself about what's really going on and therefore by proxy lying to your partner.
- [30:41]
B
If you've been listening for a while, you've probably heard us talk about bitkey. Bitkey is a private multi sig wallet that removes the biggest point of failure in traditional self custody. The seed phrase. Things get lost, phones get replaced, life happens. Right? Bitkey is designed so your bitcoin stays secure and recoverable without demanding constant attention or expertise. Use code stories for 20% off at Bitkey World. You've heard you should take your bitcoin off of exchanges, but it all sounds so technical. My friends at the Bitcoin Way have helped me and they can help you too. From one on one training to 100% self custody to straightforward cybersecurity security tools. It doesn't have to be complicated. Go to thebitcoinway.com Natalie to schedule a free call. Finally, Bitcoin IRA. With Bitcoin IRA you can invest in Bitcoin24.7 inside a tax advantaged IRA. Choose a traditional IRA to defer taxes or a Roth IRA for tax free withdrawals. When you retire, take control of your Future with Bitcoin IRA. Head to Bitcoin IRA.com Natalie for up to a $1,000 funding book bonus. Well, and I know that you've seen some couples with crypto investments. So can you tell us some stories?
- [31:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, I've been practicing divorce law for 26 years now. And so when I started practicing, you know, the concept of cryptocurrency wasn't really even in the common parlance. Like most law firms had like a computer. You know, not everybody had a computer in their office. People still were talking into dictaphones and then handing the cassette to their secretary to type up. So yeah, I mean I've seen the landscape change. And so I remember the first time somebody said oh, I have bitcoin. Like that was the first time anybody talks about cryptocurrency was saying, oh, I have some bitcoin and it's on hard wallet. And I remember everybody in the office kind of being like, what is that? Like is that. And at the time I think bitcoin was like, you know, a couple of bucks. It was like almost wasn't worth a lot. And so it was this thing that Very few people had heard of, very few people had. I was always very interested in computers and technology. I, I'm, I'm 53 years old, but I can admit openly that when I was, I think it was 1984. Yeah, it was 1984, I was 12 years old and I went to computer camp. Computer camp in 1984 was six very pale out of shape boys sitting around one VIC 20 computer. Spending every day of that summer trying to write a program in BASIC or Pascal to make a cursor move across the screen. All sharing one computer. Computer by the way, every one. There were six of us. Five of those guys are now multi millionaires because they all stayed in computers and went into like one of them founded Broadcast.com and sold it to Yahoo for hundreds of millions of dollars. I gave up computers when I was 14 thinking I'll learn how to play guitar and it'll help me get girls better. Turned out it didn't, didn't work out as well as computers might have if I'd stayed in it. But I, as a result of that, I've always been very, I'm not tech phobic in the way that some lawyers are. So I was always very comfortable talking with people about changes in technology. And I was always interested in things like cryptocurrency. So I always made a point of trying to understand what that was and what is the blockchain to the extent that people could explain it or understand it at that point. And then when other cryptocurrency came on the scene, whether it was Ethereum or any of the other, you know, early adapted ones, I think that was a time where a lot of lawyers didn't know what the hell they were talking about. And it became an asset that was a good opportunity for people to move things around without it being traceable. In 2001, shortly after 911 and the Patriot act was passed. One of the biggest things that happened with the Patriot act was it changed the manner in which finances were regulated and the way that banks. It made it very, very hard to move money without leaving a trace. And cryptocurrency in its earliest days, when it was really the Wild west, it was like almost impossible for anybody to trace anything because it was decentralized currency and people weren't going on to things like Coinbase or any of these other things that make it so easily identifiable or subject to subpoena power. So early on it became something I wanted to understand both as a way to trace assets that might be subject to division in a divorce and that someone might be trying to hide, but also to be able to educate my clients as to options that they might have in divorce planning. So it became something. And then, of course, you know, when. When bitcoin, you know, really made its initial pops, and then when it, of course, went much, much higher than that subsequently. I remember when bitcoin hit, like, 5,000, thinking, oh, my God, it will never go higher than this. This is crazy. And everybody, including myself, selling because we were like, oh, my God, I bought it 200. It's at 5,000. Like, how could you ever do better than this? And now we're all kicking ourselves. But it really was one of those things that the bar, meaning all of the lawyers who practice matrimonial law, there are still a tremendous number of people that don't know very much about cryptocurrency. Like, in New York, there's a document that's mandatory in divorces called the sworn statement of net worth. And it's a document that essentially lays out all the assets and liabilities that a person has. The 2026 version is the first one that included cryptocurrency.
- [36:05]
B
Really? Yeah.
- [36:06]
A
It took to 2026 for the new York state unified court system to go. We should add cryptocurrency as something on this. Until then, it was listed as an other. You know, like, you could just. It said other assets, but it had, like, cash surrender value of life insurance policies. But it didn't have crypto.
- [36:24]
B
Well, so you have to basically tell the government how much you have, because your spouse has to know, because you have to divide it all up.
- [36:32]
A
How does that all work? Yeah. So in order for people to. Whether it's by settlement. If it's by settlement, people have to make a knowing waiver of an asset. So if I have an asset, and I say to, like, I just finished a divorce a couple of weeks ago, where the guy is at absolute bitcoin devotee, like, holding for life. Like, he's on it, you know, and at the beginning of the case, he said to me, listen, I want to keep the bitcoin. Bitcoin. Like, she can have this. She can have that. I want my bitcoin. Like, do not let her take my bitcoin. He actually paid me in bitcoin. And he was like, I want my. I'm keeping my bitcoin. And he'd been riding the way for a long time. So he was like, I am not selling. I want to keep the bitcoin. And he did ultimately keep the Bitcoin. And it actually kind of worked out the timing of the divorce because it was right when there was a dip fairly recently. So we were like, oh, okay. Because when the divorce started, it was over 100,000, and then it dipped to 60 something. And that's when the divorce got finalized. We were like, oh, this guy just made out like a bandit. So again, that's one of the great things about volatility in a divorce is that you're riding something, you know, but in that situation, like, a person you know is essentially, you have to disclose something in order for someone to waive their interest in it. Like, if you don't know that I have something, you can't say, okay, you can keep it. Because when you're married, you're one person in the eyes of the law. So in order for you to say, okay, I'm going to keep this and you can have that in exchange, there has to be what's called full financial disclosure. So again, can people swear that they don't have something and lie? Like, it's. I hate to break it to you or anybody, but people lie all the time. Like, and they lie under oath all the time. Like, clients will say to me, they're like, well, he's lying. And I'm like, oh, my God, like, he's lying under oath. Like, I will use the liar, liar, pants on fire defense. I can't believe it. But people lie all the time and they say, oh, yeah, I don't have any accounts there, or, no, I don't have a hard wallet with anything on. I even had a case a few years ago where a person said, oh, yeah, it's on har wallet. And I don't have any of the credentials anymore. And I was like, okay, so you just have a brick then? And they were like, yeah. And I said, okay, you're sure there's no way to recover this information? They're like, no, there's absolutely no way to recover the information. And then about halfway through the litigation, I figured out, I'm like, you have the. And they did. They had the ability, but the other side really never pushed it. Like, we just said, yeah, she doesn't have the login information, she doesn't have the ability to replace it. There was a pass key she had to have in order to replace, and she didn't have it. And then by the time she discovered it, I was like, well, technically you're supposed to advise them. But she never affirmed or confirmed to me that, oh, yeah, I actually have it. But she was very quick to settle the case on a bunch of other terms that allowed her to keep this particular hard wallet.
- [39:03]
B
That's so funny. I mean, your earlier story is something I expected, because a lot of maybe spouses don't understand bitcoin, so someone's using it as leverage, right? Like, oh, I'll keep the bitcoin. You can have this other stuff.
- [39:14]
A
Well, and the other side seemed to regard it that way. Like, they were like, I'm going to keep all the unicorns in the garage. And they were like, you keep all the unicorns. I'm keeping the house. And he was like, yeah, no, no, you can keep the equity in the house, and I'll keep this stupid bitcoin, you know? And meanwhile, I was looking at it. I was like, you're making out, like, 400 grand in your favor because this person doesn't understand this asset.
- [39:36]
B
What a bummer.
- [39:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, you know, look. But that's what lawyers are for. Like, theoretically, her lawyer should have educated himself and understood the dynamics of it better. Like, look, even if I wasn't independently interested in cryptocurrency as, like, a human being who's interested in finance, technology, and the intersection of the two, as a lawyer, I would become interested in it, right? Like, I'm not interested in, like, how does an auto dealership handle its inventory and where can they, like, load money in or hide assets? But if I'm representing someone who's married to someone who owns an auto dealership, you can be damn sure I'm going to educate myself about that thing. So, you know, it's important for a divorce lawyer to learn about those things if they want to have a full, you know, tool kit.
- [40:20]
B
Are most divorces hostile that you've experienced?
- [40:23]
A
I mean, I'm a bad example because I'm. I'm a weapon. Like, people don't hire me if you have a simple divorce. Like, you don't need me if you have a simple divorce. If you have a simple divorce, you hire someone who's just going to negotiate a simple divorce. Like, people hire me because they have a difficult divorce. Like, I'm. I'm a person. I'm a trial lawyer. I'm a person who handles, like, highly litigious, contentious matters. So, you know, I get hired by individuals or even often by law firms. Like, law firms, like, divorce lawyers who are not trial lawyers will hire me to be trial counsel for their case. So they'll come in and say, look, we tried to negotiate this. We tried to settle it. Now it's going to trial. I'm not a trial lawyer. I need someone who comes, you know, because I. What I do is like full contact storytelling.
- [41:07]
B
Wait, so the divorces that go to trial?
- [41:09]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [41:10]
B
Deciding who gets what.
- [41:11]
A
Custody, assets, anything. Yeah, yeah. Custody is. I do a lot of custody trials, but complex financial trials. I do a lot of complex financial trials. I. I mean, some of the things that people do in good faith, okay. With no nefarious intentions when they're married for the purposes of wealth preservation and tax avoidance. Okay. Legal, legitimate wealth preservation, like intergenerational wealth preservation and legitimate tax avoidance. Because there's, you know, the IRS changes the internal. Like the Internal Revenue Code has changed all the time, and they close up loopholes, and every time they close a loophole, they open six new ones. And good trust and estates lawyers, within 48 hours of them publishing the new tax code have figured out every single loophole that they've created by trying to close the old loopholes. Then it takes the government about five, six years to figure out where those loopholes are. And then they patch them again. And within 48 hours, all the best trust and estates attorneys have figured out all the new loopholes that were created. So there are things people do for very legitimate, acceptable legal reasons that when you get divorced, make it an absolute mess, really. Things like a generation skipping trust, which is if you have over $100 million, you don't need to access it. You could get a generation skipping trust. A generation skipping trust is essentially your grandchild. It skips a generation. So it's a trust, the beneficiaries of whom skip over one full generation. So I would. My grandchildren would be the beneficiaries of that trust. They don't have to be in existence yet, by the way. They don't have to have been born, but it's just skipping a generation. And then you have what's called intentionally defective grantor status, which essentially means I can take money that I earn and use it to pay expenses of things that are owned by that trust, tax free. So it's a great way to avoid paying really any kind of taxes. You have to have $100 million laying around. But if you have $100 million laying around or more, which many of my clients do, it's a great way to essentially pay less taxes than a garbage man, because even though your money makes more money in a year than that person will in their entire lifetime, I have clients who pay effectively no taxes because they don't own anything. They have an interest In a trust that owns LLCs that own real estate that they happen to occupy.
- [43:35]
B
Do you think that's okay?
- [43:37]
A
I mean, look, there's a book called the Wealth Hoarders. It's an excellent book. It's about this exact topic. I think it's the rules of the game. I think every time you try. What I will tell you as a practicing lawyer for almost three decades, is we think in generalities, but we live in details. I think when people are playing by the rules, if there's a way to play in the gray area of a rule, it's not the fault of the person playing. It's the fault of the people that made the rule set. So I think people play, the people cheat. There's a difference between cheating. I don't think cheating is good, but I think you're allowed to play within the rules of the game and the rules. There's always some gray area in the rules, and there's always some room to play. And if someone is smart enough to play within the rules, but in a way that you go, oh, that can't be legitimate. If it's legitimate, it's legitimate. So do I think it's okay? Look, I don't think it's ideal. I think it would be better if we lived in a world where there was less wealth inequality. I think it would be good if there wasn't such a disparity between the rich and the poor. I mean. I mean, I think about the fact that over a thousand children die from starvation an hour, and I have a client who's worth $8 billion, one person, and he's 43. That's insane. That's an insane amount of money. But we live in a world where celebrities will go to the Met Gala wearing $10 million worth of jewelry and lecture people about how we really have to do more for the poor. And it's like you flew here in a private jet to talk about how jets are bad for the environment. There's a problem with that. So when you say, is that right? The truth is it's the rules of the system that we've created. It's not for me to say whether they're right or wrong for someone else. I think when people break the law, there should be consequences. But when people find ways to exploit legitimate loopholes within the system, it's not something I choose to do. Like, I pay my taxes in full and on time. Maybe that makes me an idiot. I don't know. I sleep better at night. I don't feel like Getting audited. I like to win or lose a fair fight. And so some people like to cheat. I don't like to cheat. I don't like representing people who cheat. But I understand that sometimes people just have the attitude of, yeah, get away with what you can get away with.
- [45:52]
B
Gosh, those are such great points. I mean, you made me think of a question. Have you ever had a client where, I mean, there is a little bit of like, you're trying to take as much as you can from the other person in some cases, right? Like, do you feel okay about that? Or have you had situations where you're like, I can't even. I can't represent this person?
- [46:06]
A
Well, you know, it's a great question. What I'll tell you is I represent the client, but I also represent the system. And I don't always believe in the client, but I always believe in the system. Like, I. If you don't like, if you don't like the rule of law, if you don't like the idea that everyone is entitled to vigorous representation within the bounds of advocacy and within the bounds of the law, you're living in the wrong country. So when somebody says to me, like, well, how could you represent that person? Move someplace else than the United States then. Because I'm not a judge, I'm an advocate. And what I will tell you is a secret that's not so secret. And that is the truth has a way of coming out sometimes, despite my best efforts, like, I do the best I can sometimes to make sure that the truth is obfuscated, to make sure that no one sees it, to throw up enough smoke and red herrings that no one will ever notice it. And yet it still has a way of coming out. Because that's what's so great about our legal systems. Our legal system, if you have a good advocate, has the ability to bring those things out. Now, do we live in a world where, you know, you can get as much justice as you can afford? Yeah, like if somebody can afford me at $1,000 an hour, they have an advantage. They have an advantage over someone who has an assigned attorney. Like, absolutely, I'm better at it. I'm better at it. And I make more money, cuz I'm better at it. So I don't think that's necessarily fair. But that's how the system works. And unless we were to say, okay, we're gonna remove the privatization of attorneys and people are just gonna all have access to the same pool of attorneys, which we could do if we wanted to as a country, we're still a representative democracy. Like, if you can convince the legislature that that should be the rule, then that'd be the rule. Like, I. I don't do this job for the money. If I wanted to just make money, all of my clients in finance make more money than every lawyer I know. So the truth is, like, I do this job because I love this job. I, even after 20 something years, I love this job. I look forward to it every single day.
- [48:05]
B
Why do you love it so much when you're with people on, like, the worst days of their relationship, like, it's crumbling, it's over, they have to say goodbye to each other. Like, a piece of them breaks. Like, why would. Why do you like being around that?
- [48:18]
A
You know, if you don't learn to find joy in the snow, you will have less joy in your life. And precisely the same amount of snow.
- [48:27]
B
That's.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah. Like, those people are going through something awful.
- [48:31]
B
Yeah.
- [48:31]
A
And they're gonna go through it without me or with me. And when they go through it with me, they're not gonna feel alone. They're gonna have someone who's, while they're panicking, is gonna make them feel calm and is gonna make them feel understood and is gonna make them feel safe and right. So, like, I hope no child ever has cancer ever again. But kids are gonna get cancer. I'm not sure why. When I meet God, it's gonna be one of my first questions to him is, why did you give kids cancer? Why do you kill dogs? After 11, 12, 13 years? Like, why do you do all these horrible things? And I hope he's got a good answer, but the truth is, like, that is how it works. And so for me, I look at it like, I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist, and I don't look at him and go, how do you do this all day? Because you know what he says to me is, like, look, if I was a sensible human being, every day I would walk in and go, oh, my God, your kid has cancer. They don't need that. They don't want that. They want him to, because that's how they feel, mom and dad. Like, they want someone who walks in and goes, okay, here's what we're looking at. Here's the best case scenario. Here's the worst case scenario. I've seen this before. Here's what we're gonna do. And walking them through it. So. So I am someone whose job is to take someone who's in an emotional storm and to make them feel like there's some sense of order in that chaos. And I am privileged to do that. And for me, I think that's a great gift to be able to do that for someone, to be able to. Like, I've had hundreds of people who are broken when they come to me, like, everything that they love feels like it's on the line. They're gonna lose their kids, they're gonna lose their house, they're gonna lose their money. The person who they loved more than anyone in the world has now weaponized against them. And that person knows every intimate little thing about them. And they feel so exposed and they don't know what the hell's going on. And by the way, when they got married, like, you buy an apartment, you get a HUD one, a lead paint disclosure, 50 million other things. You buy an investment into a mutual fund, you get a prospectus, you get all these things emailed to you all the time that nobody reads or.
- [50:43]
B
Right.
- [50:44]
A
You get married, you can get a pamphlet. You don't get a piece of paper that says you just did the most legally significant thing you're going to do in your whole life other than die. And here's what just happened. Most people learn what happened legally when they got married. When they come to my office because they're getting divorced, that is a bad time to learn about that. So I like to have the opportunity to just help somebody navigate something incredibly difficult and feel like I was part of. Part of the architecture of the next chapter of their life.
- [51:15]
B
God, I love that answer. It makes so much sense. Before we start to wrap up, I want to maybe end it on a more positive note and just broaden it out to relationships in general. Because obviously, I think you've seen probably a lot of couples who maybe they do even work it out, right? Have you seen couples that like, foul and then they end up working it out?
- [51:32]
A
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I think sometimes you have to. I always tell clients, it's either the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning beginning. Like, sometimes you have to get close to losing something to see how much it means to you. I was a hospice volunteer for many years, and I tell you, when you're around someone who's dying, you've never been more grateful you didn't wake. Have you ever had a toothache? All you can think about is the fact you have a toothache and you're like, oh, my God, if this toothache goes away, I'd be the happiest person in the world. You didn't wake up this morning and go, at least I don't have a toothache. Yeah, I got some stuff on my mind, but I don't have a toothache. This is great. I don't have a toothache. Okay, well, I think you should live your life in a state of perpetual non toothache. But the truth is, sometimes people have to come up to the brink of losing someone to go, wait a minute, like I, you know, like, you're important to me. And I had to see that, you know, I mean, why, why when our partners, you know, go away on vacation or a business trip or something that, like the silence of their absence and the scent of them not being there, like, that's like, oh, oh, I didn't. Like, I took. They're always there, and I kind of took their warmth of their presence there or the scent of them, you know, like, now it's not there, and I can actually feel its absence and the ache that it causes in me. So, you know, sometimes people have to have to lose something to figure out what it was worth to them.
- [52:50]
B
Right. So what makes a healthy, successful marriage?
- [52:55]
A
Man, it's a long one. I wrote a whole book on it. I mean, what I'll say is two things. One, one, it's harder to say what makes a good relationship than to say what makes a crappy one, right? So my mom used to say that it's really hard to define intelligence, but you could spot stupid a mile away. So maybe what being intelligent is, is an absence of stupid. So I think we all know what a bad relationship looks like. So maybe a good relationship is something that doesn't have all those ear markers of a bad relationship. But for me, what makes a good relationship, and again, is an individual ancestors. I think at its core, what love is, romantic love is, is someone saying to another person and meaning it, you're my favorite person. And I can't think of anything more beautiful than someone saying those four words to you and you knowing that they mean it. Like someone saying, you're my favorite person and you, you think, yeah, they're telling the truth, like, I'm their favorite person. And so for me, if there's a goal to love or marriage, or marriage as a expression of love, it would be that every marriage ends. Like every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce, but every marriage ends. And I hope people's marriages end in death. That's a weird thing to say, like, oh, I hope your marriage ends in death, But I do. Like, I hope everybody's marriage ends in death because it means they made it all the way to the finish line. But every marriage ends, ends, and it ends in death or divorce. I can't think of a greater blessing to ask for someone or greater wedding toast than to say, I hope that when one of you loses the other 50 years from now, that you'll be able to say, this person helped me become the most authentic version of myself. And they're still my favorite person.
- [54:54]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [54:55]
A
Yeah.
- [54:56]
B
Well, maybe people are watching this who want that kind of relationship, but they don't have it right now. Maybe they're struggling because you mentioned the statistics are pretty crazy when you hear them.
- [55:05]
A
They're grim.
- [55:05]
B
So how do you fix it if it's not there?
- [55:09]
A
So I would say to you, we're always looking for big things. Like, we're always looking for grand gestures or, like, big things we can do. I don't actually think think that's the secret. Like, I think we fall in love really fast. Like, there's just this spark of connection and attraction and there's this fascination that comes with it. But I think we fall out of love the way we go bankrupt, which is very slowly and then all at once, right? So it's like slow, slow, slow, and then we go off the cliff. I think that the way we, we can reverse the cycle of a relationship that feels like it's floundering is small acts of reconnection. Because I think one of the ways we go wrong in relationship is we start making what I would call small, negative concessions. So it's like, well, I'm not going to do this nice thing for him because he never does anything nice for me. Well, I'm not going to do anything nice for her because she never does anything nice for him. Why am I going to get her flower sleep with me last night? Well, I didn't sleep with him because he never was nice to me. You know, I'm not nice to her. She never has a kind word for me. Why don't have a kind word for you? Because every time you talk to me, you're that like. And now, all right, you're right, you're miserable. You're both miserable. And you both deserve to be miserable because you're both making each other miserable. But you can also use that same spiral in the other direction. Like, what does it cost to say? Like, to when you leave for work in the morning to leave a note for your spouse or partner that says, it was really fun watching Netflix with you on the Couch. Last night, I married the prettiest girl in the world. What does that take?
- [56:53]
B
It's huge.
- [56:53]
A
What does it take? It takes three. Really?
- [56:55]
B
Nothing. But it's huge.
- [56:57]
A
I tell men. I hate to gender it, but I tell men, if you send your wife or girlfriend a text saying, oh, I heard this song on the radio, and it made me feel think of you, you know? Or it reminded me of when we went on that vacation to blah, blah, blah. Or it reminded me of when we went out to dinner. It's the equivalent of her sending you nudes. Yeah, it really is. Like, it's just saying to her, you know, have I told you lately that you're the prettiest girl in the whole world? Like, because if I didn't, I'm an idiot. Like, there's something about just noticing someone and, like, reminding them that they're still in your line of sight, they're still your favorite person, they're still beautiful or handsome. Or, like, what man would not want to receive a text in the middle of the day from his significant other saying, you're the handsomest guy I know. Do you know that?
- [57:45]
B
Yeah.
- [57:46]
A
Like, you're the sexiest man I've ever seen. Do you know that? If I forgot to tell you that this morning, or. God, the smell. I've just walked past your closet, and I smelled your perfume when I walked past it, and I almost lost my train of thought, dude. And what does it cost? Nothing.
- [58:01]
B
You're right.
- [58:02]
A
What does it take to. Seconds. And that's the spiral. You know, that's the spiral I'm talking about. Because if we start showing each other those kindnesses, because the whole world, and especially the algorithm, loves enragement, engagement. It loves boys versus girls. It loves this whole. Well, you don't owe him this. Yeah, and then guys, like, guys. Oh, now you owe her that. You're gonna do this, and you're supposed to do this for. Okay, you're right. We don't owe each other anything. We can be alone. We're born alone, we die alone.
- [58:30]
B
Great.
- [58:31]
A
Is that what we want? No. We want connection. So if we want connection, isn't it about being, like, a little bit vulnerable and just being a little kind to each other? Like, the world is so brutal to all of us, and we're so brutal to ourselves. Like, if somebody talked to you the way you talk to you in your head, you would have stopped hanging out with them a long time ago. Like, if somebody talked to my sons the way I talk to myself in my head, I'd have beat the crap out of that person. Yeah, but every day I'm critical of myself all the time. So having a partner who, again, I'm not saying you have to let your partner get away with murder. And if they're doing something stupid, you shouldn't. I mean, listen, part of the reason you want to be in a relationship is you have blind spots. Like, and you want someone who's going to see them with love and say to you, like, hey, man, I think you could do better than what you're doing right now. Like, I love you, but you're kind of screwing it up right now. Like, that's. I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself.
- [59:29]
B
Right.
- [59:29]
A
Like, I need somebody to see it and to see my blind spots. If I could see them, they wouldn't be blind spots.
- [59:33]
B
Right.
- [59:34]
A
So I think there's value. But again, like, I think constructive criticism is still criticism. And so one of the things you can really do in a romantic relationship is build your partner up. And by building them up, by the way, very often you can bring meaningful change to that person.
- [59:54]
B
Yeah.
- [59:54]
A
You know, the story I often tell as an example of this, I, you know, I'm a lawyer, so I have to have, like a kind of clean cut look. And so I often have to be clean shaven. I can't be one of those cool, like, have a beard people. I wish I could. It'd be so cool, but it just doesn't look as good with a suit. And I have to have this very sort of every man look in the courtroom because I have a lot of judges that want you to look very sort of, you know, traditional and conservative. So I shave every day, and sometimes on the weekends, I prefer not to shave. Like, I like to have a day or two where I don't have to drag a razor across my, my face. Well, I dated a woman who had very sensitive skin, you know, Eastern European. And she did. Anytime I'd kiss her and I had stubble, she'd be like, oh, it's like so scratchy. And I remember being like, you know, like, like, now I gotta shave on weekends if I'm gonna see her too. Like, I shave every day now. Like, and by the way, like, I'm kissing you, you should be kind of like, glad that you have somebody who wants to kiss you. You know, isn't that nice? You know, but okay, I guess now I have to shave. Needless to say, that relationship didn't work. Work out. The next woman I dated, same thing. Sensitive skin Also Eastern European. But she. The way she handled it was every time I would be clean shaven and I would kiss her, she would be like, oh, God, I love it when you're clean shaven. It's so sexy. Like, I love. Like, I love. You're like Don Draper in Mad Men. Like, I love how you. Dude, I was. I would shave three times a day because it was. It was a positive.
- [61:17]
B
Yeah.
- [61:18]
A
It wasn't. I don't like it when your face is scratchy. It was. Oh, my God, you're so sexy when you're clean shaven. Like, if a man in your life says, I don't like you with short hair. Okay, now it feels like a criticism where if you go, like, God, your hair. Like, the way it spills down your. I just think that's so hot. Okay. You're gonna remember that.
- [61:34]
B
Yeah. The delivery matters.
- [61:36]
A
The delivery matters. And look, as a trial lawyer, I know that, like, my job is to tell a story in the most compelling way possible and in a way that. And again, it's not lying. Right? Like, is makeup lying? No. Makeup is accentuating the positive and accentuating the negative. If somebody's wearing makeup, I'm not gonna go, you're a L. You don't look like that. No, you're accentuating the positive, dissenting the negative. We all have a right to do that. That's not dishonest. But there's value in doing it. There's value in thinking about how is what I'm saying gonna make my partner feel, and is there a better way to present it that will accomplish the same goal but won't drag them down and make them feel criticized? Usually the answer is yes.
- [62:20]
B
I completely agree with you. You. That's a fascinating insight, and I am a big believer that how we treat someone is actually a reflection of how we see ourselves. Right. So if someone is critical of you, most of the time, they're battling something internally and then taking it out on the person, and that can really strain a relationship.
- [62:41]
A
I think hurt people hurt people. And I think people that are wounded want everyone to feel the suffering that they're feeling, whether consciously or subconsciously. So. So I do think that having some level of positivity, especially in your romantic relationship, like, this is your shelter in the storm. This is the person who's supposed to make you just feel warm and safe and loved and cheering for you. And I just think the world is so filled with challenges and criticism. And now with the algorithm and social media, we're just constantly watching everybody's greatest hits. While we live our gag reel and we're at looking, looking at filtered images of people that, like, look better than anyone could look in real life, including the people who are like. As someone who represents a lot of actors and models, I can tell you in real life, they look great, but they don't look like they look. When you see them in person, you're like, oh, you still look great, but you don't look photoshopped. And so I do think that there is value in building your partner up. And I will tell you that for me, I feel best. Like, when I'm feeling sad and lonely or hurt or scared or worried, I find that when I can radiate some kind of kindness or warmth to someone, I feel better. I think you are more transformed by the act of loving than you are by being loved, because I think that there is something so affirming about loving someone. Love is a verbal verb. Yeah, like, love is a feeling, but it's also a verb. Like, I want to love you. I want you to be loved by me. I want. Like, I. I remember saying to one of my sons when we were having, like, a difficulty, you know, he was a late teens, you know, sort of the age where you hate yourself, so you're hard to get along with. And I remember saying to him, like, do you know I love you? Like, do you feel my love? Because, like, you relate to me as if you hate me, and you relate to me as if I hate you, and as if the reason I won't let you do this stupid thing you want to do is I hate you. And meanwhile, it's because I love you and I want you to be safe and well, like, so do you know, like, can you feel my love? Like, so that's one of those questions that I think it's really good. Like, one of the best things I think a couple can do. And again, these are all things that don't cost anything. Yeah, like, why wouldn't you take and make a practice? Like, well, like, we have all these gadgets. You know, we have the phones and the watches and the. Like, we have all these things. Like, your audience, you know, obviously you have access to technology, Technology. Like, you have all these devices. Why wouldn't you put a reminder that once a week or once a day to, like, just send your partner a little text or a little message? Why wouldn't you say to your partner, hey, once a week, let's go for a walk and let's just talk for, like, 10 minutes about, like, tell me three things this week I did that made you feel loved.
- [65:37]
B
Yeah.
- [65:37]
A
What? Wouldn't you want to hear that for sure?
- [65:39]
B
And focus on the positive, right?
- [65:42]
A
Make it fun. Fun. Like, what are three times? What? What are three things I did this week that made you want to have sex with me? Like, what were three things I did this week that, like, turned you on? Like, I. I'm all ears. I'd want to hear that, you know? And by the way, if you're brave in that sandwich, what are three things I could have done better this week?
- [65:59]
B
Yeah.
- [66:00]
A
Like, what are three things I could have done better? Like, where did I miss the mark this week? If I'm brave, I'm not going to be afraid to say to my partner, like, hey, listen, tell me. This is a giant job. I want to be good at this job. So how am I going to get good at this job if I don't have a performance review once in a while?
- [66:13]
B
I love that.
- [66:14]
A
So why not, like, why not invest that little tiny bit of time where you say to each other as a practice, a conscious practice, hey, tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved. You'd be surprised by the way, like, what they are. Like, sometimes there are these little tiny things. Like, when you think about when you felt loved in your life, it very often wasn't the grand gestures.
- [66:38]
B
Yeah, it's great.
- [66:39]
A
It was these little tiny things. It was like, oh, I was really sad about this, and he put his hand on my shoulder, and it was just that feeling of like, oh, they knew I was having a terrible day, and there was nothing they could say. So they made me. My favorite thing. I like to eat. Like, what a lovely thing to be loved. And why wouldn't you want to say to your partner, like, hey, you know how good you are at making me feel loved? When you did that, you just knocked it out of the park. Why wouldn't you share that with your partner? So they would know for next time. Especially men. Like, we're so easy. Like, if you. I hate to gender it, but guys, like, come on. Like, if you say to a guy, can you open this pickle jar? I don't care if he's 5, 15, or 70. We come running like, oh, we can't wait to open the pickle jar. We want to. This pickle jar. Like, we love it. Why? Because there's something when you're a heterosexual man about a woman saying to you, like, oh, you did such a good job. That feels so good, right? So why wouldn't you? And for men to women, like what does it. Have you ever met a woman who didn't want to be told she's compelling, she's beautiful, she's smart, she's funny. Like, I'm glad I picked you. Like, we all want that. Whether you've been together for five minutes or 10 years. You want that?
- [67:50]
B
Yeah.
- [67:51]
A
So let's give that to each other. Don't think advertising or the algorithm is going to tell us to do that. It wants. There's nothing to buy, there's no course to sign up for. There's no grift you can attach to that. It's free, so you're never gonna see an ad for it. But it's the easiest thing in the world and it could be the thing that could put guys like me out of business.
- [68:12]
B
I love that. What a perfect place to end it. James, I could talk to you for hours. Where do you wanna send people for your work?
- [68:18]
A
You can find me @nyc divorce lawyer on Instagram. You can go to sextonshow.com for my YouTube show, Better Call Sexton and Cross Examination, which are two shows we do on YouTube. And you can find me in midtown Manhattan walking around in a three piece suit most of the time.
- [68:32]
B
Well, I think you might have saved some relationships and marriages out there.
- [68:35]
A
I hope so. I hope so. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.
- [68:38]
B
Thanks for joining me.
- [68:39]
A
It was great to see you.
- [68:40]
B
Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show so you don't miss any new episodes. If you can, turn on those notifications and leave us a positive review, they really help the show grow organically with new listeners. We have a free weekly newsletter. You can sign up at thenewsblock Substack. This show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as financial investment advice and you should always do your own research. I'm always open to feedback and guest suggestions, so please feel free to reach my team at info@talkingbitcoin.com I'll see you next time.