← Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Larry Lepard & Bob Burnett: The Boomer Case for Bitcoin and Why It Will Outperform Gold
00:56:27
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- [00:00]
Larry Lepard
We're going to get God count and Lucas sitting there thinking, well, it's going to go to 60, and therefore I'm going to sell it at 90 and I'll buy it back at 60. Well, good luck with that strategy.
- [00:08]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [00:08]
Larry Lepard
Because you're going to wake up one day and it's going to be 150. Going to 250. And how are you going to get back in?
- [00:18]
Natalie
Hey, everyone. Joining me this week in Naples, Florida, Larry Lepard, author of the Big Print, and Bob Burnett, founder and CEO of Barefoot Mining. Good to be with both of you in person. Welcome.
- [00:30]
Larry Lepard
Likewise. Nate.
- [00:31]
Bob Burnett
Hello.
- [00:31]
Larry Lepard
Good to be with.
- [00:32]
Natalie
I know this. This is always fun with the two people because I'm sure we'll be talking over each other, but we'll fix it and edit. I guess where I want to start with is in case someone's watching this and maybe is not familiar with the two of you, even though you've been guests on the show, just both of you share a little bit of your backgrounds and what brought you to bitcoin.
- [00:49]
Bob Burnett
All right, well, I'll go first. So I'm Bob Burnett, and I've spent most of my year, my life in technology. 40 some years. Most of my early career was in the personal computer industry, most notably as the chief technical officer for Gateway. We were known for our cowspotted boxes, and We're a top five personal computer company in the 90s and 2000s. I entered the Bitcoin space in 2017. I run a mining company, as you noted. Started out really because of. We used computers to mine. Right. That was kind of the foray. But it. It quickly turned over the course of maybe the first 18 months or so to kind of the reasons I think a lot of people are into bitcoin. The fix the money, fix the world, which, you know, Larry's. Larry's part of. Like, you started to realize that this was much bigger than just a computer generating bitcoin. It was, you know, a revolution.
- [01:48]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [01:49]
Larry Lepard
Awesome. Okay. I'm Larry Lepard. My background is investing. I've been an investment manager my entire career, actually in the technology space from the early 80s up through probably 2007 or 8, at which point in time the GFC happened and I got radicalized for sound money. And so I pivoted and started investing in gold and silver because at the time, they were the only form of sound money. Although white paper was issued in 2008. I didn't understand it at that point. I wasn't aware of it. And so I've been a gold and silver investor and still am, still believe in them. They're analog, old fashioned sound money. But as bitcoin emerged, being a technical guy and also having invested in the Internet and watching that emerge, it became clear to me that this was an emerging form of sound money that in many ways was superior to gold and silver. And so I pivoted into that. And while I still have gold and silver, I've also become a big advocate for bitcoin because I strongly believe that if we repair the money system, you know, fix the money, we will fix a lot of the problems that we're enduring today in society. And I went so far, like Natalie, I'm an author, everyone so far is to write a book about it. So. And some people are aware of that.
- [02:57]
Natalie
So it's a fantastic book. And I always, I always chuckle when I see online because the gold bugs are upset that you're a bitcoiner and the bitcoiners are mad that you're still into gold. And don't you think it's funny that our space, it tends to like attack its own? I, I feel like that was kind of the thing.
- [03:13]
Larry Lepard
We're all on the same team and the enemy is the Keynesians, you know, the enemy is the central banks. And yeah, I, you know, I'm probably the right guy to play the role of bridging both sides because I'm a combative guy. And so when I see, I get very upset when I see bitcoiners attacking gold people, I try and scold them for that. And when I see gold people attacking bitcoiners, I do the same because I think they're both sound money with different characteristics. And I think a bitcoin will emerge as the winner over a longer timeframe. But there's nothing wrong with holding gold and silver if you want something that's less volatile.
- [03:41]
Natalie
That's right. Well. And both have been outperforming.
- [03:44]
Larry Lepard
Well, right now they're doing pretty well. And you know, I'm glad I didn't abandon it, but frankly, I think bitcoin's an easier and better buy right now on a relative basis and microstrategy as well. So, yeah, look, the fact of the matter is, I mean, what I always tell the people are looking at investing in my fund, I say, look, you want to own things the government can't print because the government has proven over and over again that it will continue to print money in ever increasing size. And that was what, you know, I kind of outlined in the book, how we got to having such a broken system where that's the case.
- [04:16]
Natalie
Well, you guys recently launched the bitcoin Boomer show, so I would love to focus a little bit of the show on the boomer case for bitcoin. But bringing up gold actually, I think, puts a spotlight on something that might be surprising. A lot of boomers embrace gold, but to your point, I mean, bitcoin sort of represents many of the same foundational properties and improves on them. So you would think that the gold bugs would naturally kind of move into bitcoin faster. But it seems. Why is there so much resistance from gold bugs?
- [04:48]
Larry Lepard
The answer, and you say so much resistance, depends on what point of view you're looking at it from. I mean, I would actually say probably half of the gold bugs have. Have accepted bitcoin as well and own both. I've seen some gold bugs just abandon all their gold and go to bitcoin, which I didn't do, but I, you know, and I would say half are pretty dug in and they're negative on bitcoin. I think there are a number of reasons. I mean, probably the biggest one is that crypto, the broader category of crypto and Sam Bankman Fried and what we all refer to as shitcoins, you know, is. Is fraud. And. And so it's easy, if you're kind of doing a mental heuristic, to look at the fraud of Sam Bankman Fried and all these crypto projects where, you know, Shinsky and all these other guys rip people off and say, oh, that's all. I don't want to be involved with that. And. And they don't take the time to do the work to understand that. Actually, of. Of all of the things that are critical cryptocurrencies, there is one that's truly unique, and that's bitcoin, obviously. And. And so, you know, they've thrown them all into the wrong bucket. And I'd say the other thing is some people are. Are very much just tied to physicality and believe that money has to be, you know, sound money has to be a physical thing that the government can't print. And the government's printed a lot of money, and that's a true statement. But you can have an algorithmic version of sound money, digital sound money, and that's what bitcoin is. So, you know, like I say, Natalie, I go to these gold shows. I speak there a lot. I get, you know, some people are quite negative and attack me for doing it, but a lot of them are like they get it, you know. And I generally, at the biggest gold show I go to, which is in New Orleans, I generally ask how many of you guys own bitcoin? And half the hands go up. Okay. Which is, you know, better than you would think. Right. And these are, this is not a young show. There are not 30 year olds at gold shows.
- [06:31]
Natalie
Well, that's actually good to hear because when I've done some of the monetary focused the monetary metals like podcasts, I just get attacks in the comments like, come on, we're on, we're technically on the same team.
- [06:43]
Larry Lepard
We are very, we're very much on the same team. And the tribalism is kind of silly in my view. I mean they're both sound money and they, you know, our enemy is the central bank that's printing the money and diluting, you know, the value of our labor and our time and our savings. And that's, that's just really bad and it's criminal and, and we're all working to, to put that, put an end to that.
- [07:02]
Natalie
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- [08:56]
Bob Burnett
To me. Absolutely. And in fact, I think when you look back at the optics of what I would say are the two biggest technological revolutions in recent times, the first was the personal computer. And we didn't exactly know it at the time, but what it was was the decentralization of computer. So prior to that when we had mainframe and minicomputers and so if you wrote software, you literally had to ask somebody's permission to run your software because you didn't own the computer. So what was the personal computer? It was the decentralization of that power. Very, very powerful. And from that we now had this massive base, hundreds of millions of computers that created the opportunity for the Internet, which was the decentralization now of information. So when you have the central of information and the decentralization of compute, now they can have a baby. And that baby is bitcoin. Right. The decentralization of money.
- [09:58]
Larry Lepard
It's well put.
- [09:59]
Bob Burnett
So that was really important. But it's interesting. It's hard to see those things as they're happening now. I kind of, I wasn't able to be as eloquent probably about it at the time. But for me as a young guy who loved to code, I hated asking for permission. So when I got my first computer, that was the revolution to me. Like I got that right away. But I think our generation is struggling with this a little bit. And part of it I think, Larry, much like the gold bugs, but the, the broader boomers in general, the damage done by the Sam Bankman frieds was, you know, was huge, you know, immeasurable probably in terms of the, the setback that that caused. I would also say that the boomers. I'm going to be very broad. And Larry, you might view this different. I think you have. Boomers fall into two categories. There are those that have done well and those that haven't. Right. And those that have done well are at a stage in life where they're very dependent often on other People to manage their money. And so if their wealth advisor, Morgan Stanley guy or their Edward Jones guy or whatever, wealth advisor, if they're not telling them to do X, they don't do it. So we've been fighting that. And then you have another group which is struggling. There's this perception I think by some of the younger generations that the boomers are to blame. And if you can go into that a little bit.
- [11:32]
Natalie
Yes, I want to, yeah, but, but.
- [11:35]
Bob Burnett
There'S a lot of people struggling so they just, they don't have the resources and they're very risk averse. And so that all they see about Bitcoin is something that they're afraid of. And so unfortunately what they can save in, they're saving in the wrong place.
- [11:52]
Larry Lepard
Right.
- [11:53]
Bob Burnett
And so, so I think part of what we're trying to do is help people through that, you know, and speak to them as peers.
- [12:03]
Larry Lepard
And I see an analog here. With the adoption of the Internet, our generation, you know, we were kind of young boomers when the Internet was coming in. And you know, originally you had to have a modem, you had to dial it up, you had to put the phone in there and went, you got a green screen. I mean, you know, we needed a browser, we needed aol, we needed broadband, we needed all the things to make it seamless and easy. And we're getting that now in Bitcoin. I mean you download the Strike app and it works perfectly, you know what I mean? But you know, even five years ago we didn't have that, you know, and you know, you had to, you had to buy a hardware wallet, you had to learn how to, how to, you know, interface and, and memorize 12 words. I mean there were just, there were things that my 80 year old mother was not going to do. And now, now, you know, she can say, hey, I recognize I should own some of this bitcoin. Can I have my Morgan Stanley guy just buy it? And I'm like, yeah mom, just buy the etf. It's pretty simple. And that didn't even exist. So you know, it's gotten easier. I think Bob made a good point though, that it also has to do. And you see it particularly here in Naples where there's a lot of wealth. It has to do with how much pain people have experienced. There are a lot of boomers who are very self centered and have gotten very rich and the system works just fine for them, thank you very much. And you know, something disruptive that maybe challenges their worldview of how the system ought to work. The system that rewarded them greatly. Yes. It doesn't go over well. I gave a breakfast here in Naples to a big community, the community I live in. And these were a bunch of very wealthy, privileged men between the ages of 60 and 90. And I laid out the case for bitcoin and why the central banks, what they were doing was wrong. And I received a lot of anger that I was criticizing a system that had made them rich. You know, they didn't like it.
- [13:44]
Natalie
Well, that's something I want to unpack a little bit more because I do think that there's this perception that the boomers have essentially borrowed from their children's generation and place the tab on them. And now if you look at the ownership of assets by generation, the boomers are sitting there with all of it. And the millennials are like, please, like, give me some of it. But you made the point too, Bob, that it's not everyone. And this is one of the reasons actually why I never really related to the Fourth Turning book when I read it, because being foreign born and an immigrant was. My parents were not the beneficiary of some of these policies and this system that made some people in your generation very wealthy. My parents really struggled and have even questioned like, should we have come to this country at all? And so they didn't fit into that mold that the Fourth Turning kind of builds out of the generation. And some are struggling here on like fixed incomes that are just getting inflated away. Right. In terms of their purchasing power. So can you talk to me a little bit? Because is one side bigger? Do you think it's actually more equal? Like, is it like 50, 50, like half of the boomers are doing really well and half aren't, or is it like concentrated in just a few. But we think every, you know, we think that the boomers just own everything.
- [14:58]
Larry Lepard
Well, I don't know, Bob. You want to take that one?
- [15:00]
Bob Burnett
Well, I, I think percentage wise, it's a much smaller number that's affluent than people think.
- [15:06]
Larry Lepard
I agree.
- [15:07]
Bob Burnett
It's. And I would say it's maybe 30%.
- [15:11]
Larry Lepard
I was going to say 10 or 20.
- [15:12]
Bob Burnett
Really, you know, but I mean, but it turns on where we draw the line.
- [15:15]
Larry Lepard
But, but think about it. If you played the game and you were normal and you just, just, you know, you weren't, you know, running Ford Motor Company, you just had a regular job, you know, I mean, if you went and you bought a house in the 60s or the 70s, you know, you probably, like my parents, you probably paid $40,000 for the house. And if you, if you're in that house today, that house is probably worth, you know, $1.8 million or something.
- [15:36]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [15:36]
Larry Lepard
You know what I mean? So, I mean, and that's nothing exceptional. So there was a, there was a, you know, the inflation. There was a generational transfer of wealth to this group because of the continued inflation. And buying a house was a pretty normal thing to do. Most people could afford to buy it. I shouldn't say most, but many people could afford to buy a house. If you had a regular job, you could buy a house.
- [15:55]
Natalie
Yeah, one income was enough.
- [15:56]
Larry Lepard
One income was enough in the 70s and 80s. Right.
- [15:59]
Natalie
You're seeing that frustration. I mean, now you can't do that.
- [16:01]
Larry Lepard
Yeah.
- [16:02]
Natalie
Young people are like, this is so unfair. My parents were two teachers and could afford this really nice house. And now we have salaries that are higher than what they were getting paid and we can't afford the same house.
- [16:13]
Larry Lepard
Exactly.
- [16:14]
Bob Burnett
But there's multiple reasons why that occurs. And by the way, first, the people that did really well, you have to look at. I grew up in a town called Kenosha, Wisconsin. Okay. A blue collar town. People in Kenosha, Wisconsin did not have a house go from a hundred thousand to 1.8 million. They had a house that went from a hundred thousand to 220,000 over 30 years.
- [16:37]
Natalie
Oh, wow.
- [16:38]
Bob Burnett
So very different experience. Second thing is builders. So my, I'll share with, with you guys. My first house I purchased in 1987 for $62,500. It was a two bedroom, 980 square foot house, no garage. And I had to put 2% down through a, through an FHA loan. Okay. So I think part of the issue though is builders don't build houses like that anymore. That doesn't exist. A two bedroom, 900 square foot house. And, and young people, when I talk to them, they don't want that kind of house. They want, they want a 2500 square foot, 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 2 car garage house and go well. So we have a bit of a disconnect in that. I think that the, the entry point has changed both the expectation of the young people and what builders are building. So I think that's, that's part of the problem. And I guess going back to that, that other thing, you know, boomers doing. Well, if you grew up in Boston or Naples or, you know, in California or something like that, yeah, you had this explosion. If you grew up in small town Midwest, you did not, you did not have that growth. So in those people, as they're entering their 60s and their 70s, they very. Well, you know, we no longer have pensions. Like boomers are the first generation where we don't have pensions. So there's a lot of those people are dependent on Social Security and that's the sole source of income to die off right before.
- [18:26]
Natalie
So I feel like I. Yeah, I.
- [18:27]
Bob Burnett
Don'T have a. I never had a pension. The company I worked for offered a pension. So if you're not a. A federal or state employee, most people in, in at least my section of the boomer generation, so they started to.
- [18:39]
Natalie
Get phased out when, what, 70s, 70s.
- [18:42]
Larry Lepard
Late 70s, early 80s.
- [18:44]
Natalie
Interesting.
- [18:45]
Bob Burnett
They were gone. Yeah.
- [18:46]
Larry Lepard
Before that there were pensions, though. I mean, you know, if you spent your whole life working for AT&T, you could retire and AT&T was going to pay you for the rest of your life. Yeah, I think a lot of companies did.
- [18:56]
Bob Burnett
Yeah. I think the IRA was. Was that like 80, something like that? Somewhere around 1980.
- [19:03]
Larry Lepard
Corporations.
- [19:04]
Bob Burnett
Corporations quickly like, get us out of this. We don't want pensions.
- [19:07]
Larry Lepard
They recognized it was a burden and they tried to shut it off to people and, you know, let people themselves.
- [19:12]
Natalie
Which is its own rabbit hole, probably. Right. Because then it funnels everything into the stock market and then that gets bulls in value.
- [19:19]
Bob Burnett
It's part of the Ponzi of the stock market in that now they have the 401k, the IRA, all these sort of things. They're just funnels to Wall Street.
- [19:28]
Natalie
Yes.
- [19:29]
Bob Burnett
Automatic buying. And everything's in index funds. So all the peanut butter spread. And so.
- [19:35]
Natalie
And it's behind the tax barrier. So it's like incentivizing people to do it and trade within it.
- [19:40]
Bob Burnett
Yeah, yeah. And all the financial advisors, everybody's kind of in on the, on the whole, that whole game. Yeah. So I, I think that that's a big part. And you know, as I said, I think that that one of the things. And I think Larry and I have had this conversation, you know, in the past too, even to the degree the boomers have been the benefit of this. Those part. The system was not created by the boomers. You know, we have what Nixon did in 71 and Burns and obviously what happened in 1913 and all those sort of things. Those, those are really the things that broke this system. And it wasn't boomers. It was.
- [20:22]
Larry Lepard
And what happened is some boomers figured this out. They figured out. What we all know now today is very obvious is that inflation is government policy. It's just there's natural inflation that can't be stopped. And if you were smart enough in the 70s or 80s to see that and to realize that and to get into the real estate business where you could use leverage. And I love that meme where we see the guy holding the kid up with a basketball, me thinking I'm good at real estate, and the guy holding him up. Is that inflation?
- [20:50]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [20:51]
Larry Lepard
You know what I mean? I mean, if you. If you know that there's an inflationary policy and it's going to continue forever, what do you do? You buy real estate. You lever it up, you know, and the value, the, you know, the debt stays the same, the value of the property goes up, and you get rich. Right?
- [21:04]
Natalie
Yeah. I actually have an interesting story about that relevant to where we are for this conference. I don't want to dox my friends, so I won't give too many details, but I came here in high school because a friend of mine, her family had a home here. And I was curious when I was going to be coming down here for the conference. I wonder if that. That home's still in their family. I wonder what it's worth today. So I go on Zillow, and it's so fascinating that you can get this information like that. Right. I look up the house and yes, it's been in the same family for now. It's been three decades. Purchased in 1996 for 590,000. What's it worth today? It's worth just under $4.5 million. But here's the kicker. Okay. This is where I got in my chat GPT, my gro. And I asked for it to compound the average annual growth.
- [21:53]
Larry Lepard
Yeah.
- [21:54]
Natalie
And then I looked at the M2 money supply, and it's literally exact 7%. It has gone up by 6.7, 6.8%, which is the exact amount that our M2 money supply has expanded. So, I mean, to your point, real estate's very regional, and obviously, you know, Florida is more scarce and desirable real estate. But you think you've done great, right? Oh, my gosh. I generated all this wealth. You've tracked the expansion of the money supply.
- [22:20]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [22:20]
Larry Lepard
Correct. Yeah, yeah. You prevented yourself from getting poor.
- [22:24]
Natalie
Yes.
- [22:24]
Larry Lepard
But you didn't necessarily get ahead.
- [22:26]
Bob Burnett
Correct.
- [22:27]
Larry Lepard
You just. You just saved in something they couldn't print, which is called real estate.
- [22:30]
Bob Burnett
And, you know, over 30 years, or whatever the number was that you were looking at that compounding maintenance cost, property tax. Exactly 30 years, those sort of things. I did a study once, 1989 to 2019. So it was before what happened in 2020. And to your point, average home price in America exactly tracks cpi. So it fits exactly with what you said that you're really not. Now, CPI is a bogus number, too, but still, it was amazing that it tracked the same thing. Yeah.
- [23:05]
Natalie
I mean, it just puts things into perspective where even when you do the right thing and you play by the rules of the system, you think you've gotten ahead. And. And thank goodness that they had something like that, because then the assets where you had to be, because if they had saved in cash, God forbid, I mean, they would be. They wouldn't have this amazing property. Now, that probably makes up a chunk of their net worth.
- [23:26]
Larry Lepard
Absolutely. And. And not everybody, you know, I mean, at the bottom of the. Of the earnings spectrum, it's hard to come up with a down payment and to buy that. To buy that asset and.
- [23:35]
Natalie
Right.
- [23:35]
Larry Lepard
That's what the system is so incredibly unfair.
- [23:37]
Natalie
Well, I was thinking about that, like today, what it would take for someone to buy that house. Right. The type of down payment, the amount of the expense with these mortgage rates, the maintenance costs now the insurance costs on a more expensive home. I mean, I just. I feel like we celebrate our home values going up, but we don't think about the fact that. Okay, well, when you go to sell it, you just have to buy another overinflated home, and everything scales up with it. You have to pay more property taxes, more insurance costs, and so it's like. Yeah, I mean, why can't they just let prices fall in real estate?
- [24:10]
Bob Burnett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, obviously the system breaks in that point, but as you mentioned, by the way, we're sitting in Naples, Florida, so Larry and I, we own properties down here. One of the hard things that sometimes happens, though, is if you get a home like that, that's a $4 million home is. Zillow may say it's worth 4 million, but when it actually comes time to sell, I mean, you better time the market. Right. Because if the market's wrong, you can, you know, that can turn to 2.8 million really, really quickly. And it can be. It can be extremely illiquid, too. Right. So, you know, the, the Larry and I both live in golf course kind of gated community sort of thing, and we've just even in the last five years, seen radical changes within our. In the gates of our community and home value, really, and in liquidity. And how many.
- [25:03]
Natalie
How many homes going down?
- [25:04]
Larry Lepard
No, no, well, going up. Well, took everything up about 50%. Was that your observation? Yeah, Covid took everything up about 50%. And I would guess from that peak.
- [25:15]
Bob Burnett
It'S probably backed off another 20, about 20% down.
- [25:20]
Natalie
Well, I've been reading that about Florida that things are actually going down.
- [25:23]
Bob Burnett
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:23]
Larry Lepard
There.
- [25:23]
Bob Burnett
Yeah. Wow.
- [25:24]
Larry Lepard
They are. But that's again it's, it's just these wild swings of are they printing money or aren't they? You know, once they start printing again and inflation starts up again and I mean it's.
- [25:33]
Natalie
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- [25:49]
Bob Burnett
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- [25:55]
Natalie
This led to more support from Bitcoin users and a 10% revenue boost. Getting started is easy. Sign up@trispeed.com or integrate the API in hours. Start accepting Bitcoin today. Download Speed at speed app Coinstories or the QR code on the screen and use code COINSTORIES10 for 5,000 free sats. BitKey is a Bitcoin hardware wallet with multi sig security inheritance and a recovery system designed for real life. No complex setup, no seed phrase, just true self custody without the stress. It was named one of Time's best inventions in 2024. Use code STORIES for 20% off at BitKey World. Up next, the Bitcoin way. There's only one way to protect your Bitcoin from government, politicians and third party risk and that is 100% self custody. My friends at the Bitcoin Way will train you how to do this the right way the first time. No compromises. Go to thebitcoinway.com Natalie to speak with the experts about making sure your Bitcoin is secure and private. Finally, Bitcoin IRA. With Bitcoin IRA you can invest in Bitcoin24.7 inside a tax advantaged IRA. Choose a traditional IRA to defer taxes or a Roth IRA for tax free withdrawals. When you retire, take control of your Future with Bitcoin IRA. Head to Bitcoin IRA.com Natalie for up to a $1,000 funding bonus. Well, I do want to ask you about your forecast for this big print, but I first of all I wanted to ask you guys about this sort of debt bomb that's ticking which is Social Security and I feel like we don't. No one wants to address all of these obligations, but the Social Security trust is going to run out in the next decade. So what are we, what are we going to do? Right, because the politicians don't want to talk about it and we're going to have to print the money, but the average person doesn't realize that just means you're going to pay for it. Right. Like, we're all going to have our purchasing power destroyed more. So do you guys have any solutions? Like, if you guys were in positions to. To make some decisions when it comes to this and all the obligations, what would you do?
- [28:01]
Larry Lepard
It's. It's a really tough thing because these, you know, people have paid in and of course, the money has been misspent and misallocated. And somebody who's paid in thinks, hey, I'm entitled to receive on the other end of it. And the answer is, you can receive what you're entitled to receive, but the purchasing power that you're receiving, I mean, it's not as large as what you paid in. And it's my general belief is that just having the government in this business is just a stupid thing. I mean, we should go back to the model where families, you had kids so that your kids could take care of you in your old age in case you didn't have any money. And families took care of themselves. And the government wasn't part of this whole game because making the government a part of it, I mean, they rake off taxes and fees and all that stuff throughout it. Having said that, in order to save Social Security, there's got to be some courage in D.C. and we don't see much of that. One of the problems with Social Security is, you know, and I remember this well, too, is when they set it up, the average life expectancy for a male in the United states was like 65.
- [29:00]
Natalie
Right.
- [29:00]
Larry Lepard
You know, we weren't living to be 90. We weren't having our hips and knees replaced. We weren't having all the stuff we now have.
- [29:06]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Larry Lepard
And so, you know, longer lifespans, better health, etc, you know, just created a burden that's too large. And so, you know, my sense is, if they want to be honest about it, they've got to balance the budget. And, you know, I don't know how you do that, but my sense is, you know, things that should be on the table would be, you know, a means test. I mean, I receive Social Security, I'm over 65 years old. I don't need it realistically. And if for the benefit of the country I had to give up my Social Security, I'd be like, okay, even though I paid in, I get it. I've done well. I'm okay. You know, there. There should also be, you know, maybe a higher starting age, you know, for it. I mean, you don't start it quite as early. I don't know. It's. It's a real tough problem. And to me, it highlights the issue of once you let the government into something, in my opinion, they're going to eff it up.
- [29:55]
Natalie
Yeah, well, when you think about it, actually, the solution is pretty easy. It's just no one wants to stomach it. Right. It's like no one. No vot. Will want to put that guy in office.
- [30:04]
Larry Lepard
That's right.
- [30:05]
Natalie
We need someone who's a really. We really. I mean, someone was saying this on a podcast, and I totally agreed. We need a great communicator to come in regardless of what party, and just tell us, like, this is. What's. This is what's happened. We're gonna have to go through a little bit of toughness for a couple years, but here's what we're gonna do. Like, we don't have anyone to tell us like that.
- [30:25]
Bob Burnett
And it's. Yeah. I mean, it's. The only way you get through is somebody like a Trump who does it in the last part of a presidency. Right. Where he's not worried about being elected again because it will be brutal.
- [30:38]
Larry Lepard
The only thing that's going to happen, though, that I don't think enough people have focused on is the fact that right now it's a third rail. It's untouchable, because the voting block that Bob and I are a part of is too big.
- [30:48]
Natalie
Right.
- [30:48]
Larry Lepard
And you guys don't outnumber us yet.
- [30:50]
Natalie
Yes.
- [30:50]
Larry Lepard
But guess what? We're dying off. And there are new young people coming, and eventually everybody who's, you know, well below the age of 50 is going to say, what the hell are we sending all this money these old folks for? This is outrageous. We're working our asses off and they're getting too much, and it's going to become touchable, you know, and they're going to come after it. And. And that. That's, you know, some politician will say, in order to balance the budget, that's what we got to do.
- [31:13]
Natalie
Right. By the way, guys, if you're hearing a noise, we're at an airport. So, yeah, the rumble planes are taking off.
- [31:21]
Bob Burnett
You know, I would say to. I believe it's 2032, if I remember right, is the. The D day of the reserve is all gone. Interestingly, I'm 61 and a half. I become eligible in six months for Social Security. And like Larry, I really don't need it. However, I have paid in for, I started working at 15, so I've been paying in for 45, 46 years. My plan right now, because you have your option, you can take it at like 62 and get less or 65 or 67 or 70 and you get more. But my plan right now personally, is start taking it the first day and start dcaing bitcoin every month with whatever I get. Because I, I, if, if I wait till 70, I'm going to get nothing. That's the way I look at it.
- [32:17]
Larry Lepard
Right.
- [32:18]
Bob Burnett
So if you do that math like.
- [32:19]
Larry Lepard
Or, or, you know, but look, it's, the government can meet all its monetary obligations no matter what. Okay, well, the issue is what's it going to buy?
- [32:29]
Bob Burnett
Yeah, but I think, I think the only way out, by the way, so kind of getting to that is I think we have to draw a line. There's going to be a line in the sand. It might be people age. Let's just say it was today you draw a line at age 50 and say you're going to get it. And if you're not, if you're under that age, you're not, but we're no longer going to charge you for it. Or it's a different program, it's a privatized program or something like that. And we're going to have to print money till all these people die.
- [32:57]
Larry Lepard
Right.
- [32:58]
Natalie
Why haven't they means tested it yet? Because there's this whole movement to tax the rich. And what if like a Mamdani voter is watching this going well, if you guys just said you don't need it, why are you taking it?
- [33:09]
Larry Lepard
Well, fair enough. I mean, I, I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna donate money to the federal government that we waste it. That's why I'm taking it.
- [33:18]
Natalie
Fair enough.
- [33:19]
Bob Burnett
Yeah. And I would say that and also say, you know, I, I, if I take it now and I do like something like I just said, my kids, who I don't think will get the benefit of it, will get, will get something out of it that it'll pass down, especially if I, if I keep.
- [33:37]
Larry Lepard
I think it's just, I think it's the votes. I think, I think, I think the votes are there. Yeah. Everyone knows they can't, they can't touch it or they can't stay in office.
- [33:45]
Bob Burnett
But I think it's the same, but change. I think your question though is the same as to like some of the people that come from the left and you ask them like, well, you can pay more taxes.
- [33:55]
Natalie
Right.
- [33:56]
Bob Burnett
Why don't, why don't you pay more taxes?
- [33:58]
Natalie
And I've had that question. When it comes to people who are very, very wealthy and they say I should be taxed more, I'm like, there's literally nothing stopping you from handing over more.
- [34:07]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [34:07]
Natalie
To the government.
- [34:08]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [34:08]
Natalie
If you really feel that way. Right. I mean, because you'll see people at the very top of the food chain and they're like, I should be taxed more. Well, send that money in if you think they're going to spend it. Well, I don't, I don't get that.
- [34:20]
Larry Lepard
Yeah. Most of what government does is bad.
- [34:23]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [34:24]
Larry Lepard
And so I, you know, I don't want to feed that piece.
- [34:26]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Natalie
I mean, there's just no accountability. Right. I mean, I feel like that's the one frustration that I have because I too, once when I was younger wanted to believe that, that there was this like benevolent actor in the government. Right. And there were checks and balances. That's how it's all set up. And so that was who you would want to be the steward of, of money. But you realize it kind of starts to crumble when you realize that there's so much corruption, especially in a system where you can easily print money. Right. And then insiders start to enrich themselves and they start to, you know, curry favors. And then all of a sudden you have this ballooning like welfare state that you can't cut the tentacles off. And it's far reaching on both side the political aisle. Right. And all of a sudden it's like we've impoverished a, A, a society and now we're dependent on the government for handouts. And God forbid they stop, you know, any of these programs because we're so dependent on them. And that's where I think we're at. We're at that stage of like, this is a monster and you can't, you can't easily like kind of take a bite out of it.
- [35:27]
Larry Lepard
I think that's correct. Yeah.
- [35:28]
Bob Burnett
And you reach a, a vector if you, if you read a book like Atlas Shrugged.
- [35:32]
Natalie
Oh yeah.
- [35:33]
Bob Burnett
You know, which, if you haven't out there read it, I just reread it in the last year and it's amazing to reread it as a 61 year old guy, especially having lived through the bitcoin thing, because you see completely different optics about it. And unfortunately what you see is so much truth. A translation from what goes on in that book to here and, and in the book, for those who haven't read it, there's kind of just continuing to double down on more control, more impairment of the entrepreneur and of the rich. And that's exactly what we're seeing. I think we're seeing that fight. I view it as almost a good versus evil fight right now of where do we go? Luckily, I think in the last year, and I'm not saying it because of Trump, it's not so much, but I think society has rebelled back in the last year. Not just here, but we can even take what's happening in Iran as an example.
- [36:36]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [36:36]
Bob Burnett
You know, right now there's a rebellion back against the oppression and the dictators and all that. And thank God, like, we need, we need that desperately.
- [36:45]
Natalie
Yeah. I've been excited to see the calls for accountability here too, with the fraud investigations, because that's, that was literally my beat when I was a reporter. I was like the public corruption chaser. And, and it frustrates me because it exists. And when people deny it or they try to protect the people that are committing the fraud, I'm like, where, how did we get here? How did we get here? This is, this is taxpayers money. You're supposed to be accountable. There should be like. And this is what you love about Bitcoin, right? It's so transparent. You can't hide it. You can't suddenly funnel the money to your friends. And we don't know where the money actually went and where the services provided. I feel like we need to introduce a system of consequences again and responsibility, which we don't have, sadly.
- [37:28]
Larry Lepard
I think our money is going to fail and I think that's going to lead to reset. I mean, you know, we've kicked this can down the road for such a long time frame now and society is so broken. I mean, this is our fourth turning model, right, that, you know, the. We're going to have very, very high rates of inflation and there's going to be, you know, just an outcry by everybody to fix it. And so to this, read that bitcoiners and gold and silver people and sound money advocates can explain it to the world. When it gets bad enough that everybody cares about it, we will fix it because that's how things get done. When there's a crisis, we'll make the changes that are necessary and politicians will arise who understand sound money. I don't know. Michael Saylor will end up as president. Seriously, I think we will fix this. But the transition from here to There will be bumpy and there'll be some serious pain. I mean, there's no. There is no free lunch, and we've behaved as if there is one. Right, Right.
- [38:27]
Natalie
Can you talk to me a little bit about your forecast? Because I feel like, at least in the bitcoin space, it feels like people are waiting for that big print to come. Like, when is it coming? When is it coming? But it's interesting to look at things like M2 levels because they are hitting new records. And so it seems like the liquidity is kind of flowing, but it's going to other assets. So the bitcoiners feel a little bit disappointed. But what do you see happening in the greater market and what will trigger the big print that you're predicting?
- [38:54]
Larry Lepard
Yeah, so I have a chart on this. I don't know, Paul, if you can pull it up or not, but if not, it doesn't matter. It shows the growth of the money supply as against the debt. And, you know, the fact. Yeah, here it is. The fact is that what you can see is that the black line is the Federal Reserve balance sheet, which is a good proxy for the reserves in the system. And with the lighter line is a line that shows hyper, you know, an exponential growth curve. And what you can see is that the Federal Reserve tried to hop off the line at two points. One in 2008, and it led to a big print, and another in Covid, it led to a big print. Well, look at where the black line is now compared to the, you know, the exponential growth curve line. We're well below it. And so another print is, in my view, imminent. And frankly, it really just started, I mean, in Q4, the Fed, you know, rather quietly and trying to say, hey, there's nothing to see here, folks, stopped qt and restarted QE at 40 billion a month, which, when they were floating the trial balloon, they said it was only going to be 25. And they also said that it was going to start in January, but they came out in the Fed meeting in early December, and they said, we're starting it in two days. So strikes me that they had to do it pretty quickly. And so I think we're right on the cusp of it. I mean, I think. And you also see it in the politics with what's going on with Trump and his war with the Federal Reserve. And we know that the next Fed chairman is going to be dovish. We know that he's trying to get people on the Federal Reserve Board who are dovish. He's already got One Moran probably be able to get another one when the guy in Atlanta resigns or term run out next year. And then of course, he's going to have the chairman. So my sense is that we are going to go back to a low money environment and print more money in. The Federal Reserve balance sheet is going to start growing again very rapidly in what I call kind of what others have called the run it hot strategy. When you've got this much debt compared to your gdp, if you stop, you have massive deflation and a collapse. Think 1929, and no politician wants that. And they'll all trade off that against future inflation by printing money. And of course, once you start printing, the inflation doesn't appear immediately as a lag, but it will appear. And so my sense is it's probably in the next year, 18 months at the most, that the printing starts to really ramp up again. And I think the 9% inflation that we had in the last cycle, that will be exceeded. We'll have 12, 15, 20% inflation this cycle. I mean, Trump came out and tweeted that he thought we should have 20% GDP growth. Well, the only way you can get that is with 15% inflation, 5% real growth.
- [41:34]
Natalie
Right. Well, so let me ask you then, because it sounds like the only way to get our debt down is for us to print our way out of it, essentially. Right? Inflate it away. So let's say we do that side and we spark all this growth, but that sparks the inflation and everything goes up in price, which is what everyone started to cry out about. Right. That starts to become a political problem. But I mean, what can you do about that side in order to succeed at the printing away the debt?
- [42:03]
Larry Lepard
Well, I mean, the only way to print away the debt is to have massive inflation. We did this after World War II. It's called yield curve control. We did it. You know, we had this much debt to GDP, GDP in 1945 because we'd fought a war. And the Federal Reserve did yield curve control from 42 to 51, where they held interest rates at 3,8 on the short end and 2.5 on the longer end. And, you know, we got out of that mess by one. There was really high inflation. People don't realize this. You go back and look at some of the monthly inflation. There's like 20% inflation one month in 1949. And then we also had, you know, we were. The benefit we had then is that we were the one country that wasn't damaged by the war.
- [42:41]
Natalie
Right.
- [42:42]
Larry Lepard
Japan and. And Europe were just on their knees. And so, you know, we started building stuff and exporting it, and that led to a lot of growth. And. And we kind of climbed out of that hole. We don't have the same set of demographics, and we've got a lot of serious competitors in China, Japan, Europe, et cetera. So we're not going to have that as a solution. And my sense is that, you know, this is going to ultimately lead to very, very high rates of inflation. And then you get the question of, do you do a monetary reset, have the courage to reset to bitcoin and gold, or do you just let the inflation keep running? And that has to do with the politics of it all? And that's why I wrote the book, to try and educate people of the fact that we need to get politicians who understand returning to sound money is the way to solve this problem. I want to address something you mentioned earlier, though, Natalie. I think it's important you said, why isn't bitcoin working? And trust me, I'm a massive bitcoiner. I'm a massive gold and silver guy. Bitcoin's not working vis a vis gold and silver, because gold and silver are the easy go to monetary debasement choice of billions of people who do not understand bitcoin. And so what you're seeing right now is the monetary system break very clearly. I mean, look at what's going on. The price of silver, it's insane. And it expresses itself in the precious metals first. And bitcoin is much more of a liquidity indicator. And that tells you that right where we are on that curve tells you that liquidity is tight. And therefore bitcoin is not going up rapidly, although it's been going up rapidly last week, which I, you know, the most interesting thing that happened last week, bitcoin's going up in the triple Q is going down. So stocks are going down. So the correlation there, it's only two days so far that it's happened. But to me, there's a. There's a lot of signal there. And so, you know, as it becomes apparent, I mean, gold has smelled out the future monetary debasement. Gold knows the reason gold and silver have done what they do is they understand that curve. Okay, Bitcoin understands that curve, too, but liquidity is tight. Once it happens, bitcoin's going to explode. It's going to go to 200,000, 300,000, very, very quickly. There's an interesting analog on this. If you go back and you look at. And I Remember this very clearly. So in 2019, Powell pivoted. In early 2020, Covid erupted. Right. And. And they printed a shitload of money. Right, we know that. And gold at the time, you know, went from 1200 to 2000 really quickly. And I remember quite well because I owned them both. And I thought, God, this gold stuff's really working. And bitcoin was flat at like 5 to 7,000.
- [45:11]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Larry Lepard
All my bitcoin friends are like, what the going on? I mean, they're printing a ton of money, gold's going up, my shit's not moving. Well, then one day it's like that Christopher Walken thing about the lion. You know, every now and then just wakes up and has to show you who's boss. And suddenly in like July of 2020, Bitcoin went from 10 to 60. It went 6x in three months. Right. That's what's going to happen here.
- [45:32]
Natalie
I, I do feel, I have this weird gut feeling like we're going to be in for a real pop, like one that we haven't seen in a long time because some of the bitcoiners have been complaining that we haven't had this like, well, retail euphoria that we did.
- [45:45]
Larry Lepard
This is why guys that I really respect, like Luke Roman, have made the mistake of selling their bitcoin. They don't understand what they own. They don't understand the optionality here. Fred Krueger wrote a book called Bitcoin 1,000,000, which I highly recommend. And this, there's a statistic in that book which is stunning. Between 2018 and 2024, Bitcoin went up 7 or 800%. If you missed the best 10 days, you were down.
- [46:11]
Natalie
Psychology of Money talks about that too. There were a couple days where all the gains happen.
- [46:16]
Larry Lepard
So, so, so we're going to. We're going to get God count and Lucas in here think, well, it's going to go to 60 and therefore I'm going to sell it at 90 and I'll buy it back at 60. Well, good luck with that strategy. Yeah, because you're going to wake up one day and it's going to be 150, going to 250. And how are you going to get back in?
- [46:29]
Bob Burnett
Yeah, I mean, I'll. I'll. All that I think is really great, Larry. Just throw a few little pieces of flavor to that one. Since we're talking about bitcoin, one thing I've counseled people is my business is bitcoin mining. And one of the things I have a Good grasp on is how much does it cost to make a bitcoin? And I think one of the things that a lot of people do is they get hung up in these charts. But there actually is a cost to produce a bitcoin.
- [47:02]
Natalie
The electrical cost, right?
- [47:03]
Bob Burnett
Well, the whole cost. I mean obviously electricity is a big one. But there's a capital investment, there's depreciation on it, there's labor, there's rent, there's insurance. We're a business like any other business. And I track this very closely. And I can say that across the whole industry. I believe right now it's about $88,000 is the cost of producing a bitcoin.
- [47:24]
Larry Lepard
Wow.
- [47:25]
Bob Burnett
And some people disagree with me. I come out as a technologist, not as a trader or a charts guy, owner.
- [47:33]
Natalie
But I saw a chart that said electrical cost is like 71,000 or something on average.
- [47:37]
Bob Burnett
Now I can tell you I can do it for as cheap as 50.
- [47:41]
Natalie
Wow.
- [47:41]
Bob Burnett
Okay, so, but on average it's, it's 88. But I, and I think that sets a soft floor and a hard floor. Those numbers set both a soft and a hard floor. The soft floor being probably the 88. And we've seen that resistance. Right. We've seen as it dips into the 80s, it doesn't, it hasn't wanted to go to the 70s. And I think that that's part of it is that hey, you start getting under the cost of production and it's not going to want to go lower on average. But I think in terms of a hard floor, it's probably that 50. I can't envision a scenario cheaper than that. But even then there's a couple percent of the bitcoin are produced down at that level. Most of the bitcoin is produced up closer to that $88,000 number. So that's one thing. I think it's like a floor. It's like a floor. And now could it flash crash? But no. So what I'm saying though is, I mean even today we're sitting here at 97. We've had a pretty big run in the last 24 hours up like 6,000. But we're still, we're just barely flirting above the average cost of production. And we're less than four months from the all time high. I think we forget that like, like. So anybody that's frustrated right now is probably needs to zoom out a little bit.
- [48:57]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [48:59]
Bob Burnett
Second thing, we were talking about inflation before. We'll just add a little color. I just spent two and a Half weeks in the Philippines, and my wife's from the Philippines. And so over, over the last 20 years, we've seen the dollar appreciate relative to the Philippine peso by about 20 to 25%. And when you go to a place like the Philippines, you can feel that it is inordinately cheap. It is way too cheap to be there. Some of you may have heard of the. You guys know the Big Mac index. So the Big Mac index says, well, let's take a product that is consistently produced around the world, and now let's compare how much it actually costs to buy one in each country. So it is dramatically cheaper to buy a Big Mac in the Philippines than it is in the US and so what does that mean? It essentially means that something is wrong with the currency exchange rates. And Larry, you may or may disagree with this, but the US as it prints money, it exports a lot of the inflation. In fact, I think that's part of the equation Trump misses when he does all the, all the tariff stuff, any of the retaliatory tariffs is. He misses that a place like the Philippines, which may have a tariff on the US is paying a 20 or 30% premium already because of the currency. Because of the currency issue. So the reason I'm bringing this up, though, is that as the big print starts happening, what I'm seeing is internationally, these countries are pissed and they've had enough, and they realize what's happening, and they're starting to have alternatives to the dollar. And so if we cannot export the inflation, what that means is the inflation here goes faster and harder.
- [51:03]
Natalie
Very true. Well, I think we're going over time. So where I want to wrap up is, since you guys are kind of the voice for your generation, if someone's watching this and going, I have a boomer friend or relative, and I can't get them to look at bitcoin and take it seriously. What is the boomer case for bitcoin? Okay, read the big print. Obviously, we've got some two written by.
- [51:25]
Larry Lepard
A boomer for boomers. Two great books, obviously selling my book.
- [51:29]
Natalie
But tldr it in like 30 seconds or a minute.
- [51:34]
Larry Lepard
The case for bitcoin is the same as the case for gold and silver, which is really originally laid out by Lyn Alden in that nothing stops this train. We've got a broken governmental system where the government can spend money to buy votes, and therefore they think that those votes are free, but the money they're spending, they don't have. And so in order to fill the hole they print it. And so everybody in America constantly suffers from having their savings debased year after year after year. And the only way to stay ahead of that is to own assets that will keep up or exceed that debasement in terms of price performance. And, you know, the three most notable assets, and the fourth is real estate, but the three most notable ones are gold, silver and bitcoin. And bitcoin is better than gold and silver because it's digital, it's easier to store, it's cheaper to store, and more importantly, it's also undergoing an adoption curve. So you're not, you know, look, gold's been around 5,000 years. You don't have to tell anybody about gold. It's not new. If you want to own gold, you already own it. Whereas, you know, if we go out and you ask the person on the street, do you know about bitcoin, or you own any bitcoin, you know, half of them don't even know what it is. And then the remaining half, probably only 5 or 10%, own something, some of it, and yet it's better than gold. And so all of those people, you know, just as all the people who didn't think they needed a PC now have one, all of the people who do not own any bitcoin today, they're going to own it in the future. And so if you buy it today, you're buying something that everyone's going to want. It's what Michael says. It's inevitable. Everybody needs it and they don't understand it, but they're going to come to understand it. And so it's really quite an amazingly asymmetric asset. You know, the ARR. The average rate of return right now is about 40%. Even after 10 years, when it should be at a million dollars a coin, it's only declined to about 30% a year. So, you know, and you've got no management team risk. Well, minimal management team risk if you, if you throw out core. But you've got different rabbit hole. Yeah, different rabbit hole. But you've got relatively low management risk. And so, you know, buy bitcoin and just live your life. I mean, this is. This is incredibly easy compared to trying to pick stocks.
- [53:51]
Natalie
Well said. Buy bitcoin, just live your life. Your life have round us out.
- [53:56]
Bob Burnett
Yeah. If you're a boomer, you've worked hard and there is no reset button anymore. Like, this is your last chance. So whatever you have, whether it's a dollar or 10 million or 100 million, you have to protect it. Both for the rest of your life and for what you're going to pass on. And I think bitcoin is the only insurance policy you can buy against that. Maybe a little gold and silver, too, but that's it. That's it. So don't miss it.
- [54:23]
Natalie
It's not too technical. You're not too late. Right. It's just so many myths.
- [54:27]
Larry Lepard
Natalie's book does a great job of explaining that. My book's a little. My books. Yeah. My book's a little more technical, and, yeah, it's financy, but. But if you. If you're afraid of finance, read Natalie's book because it's beautiful. You know, explains it.
- [54:41]
Natalie
What I've been telling people is mine's a good appetizer. Yours is like the main course. I don't got some good main course. I'm an app.
- [54:49]
Larry Lepard
They're both main courses. One is just. One is written in a friendly, warm, personal way. And mine is written with a little bit more anger.
- [54:57]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [54:57]
Larry Lepard
Yeah.
- [54:58]
Bob Burnett
Well, they're.
- [54:59]
Natalie
Larry. You can hear Larry, like, through this book.
- [55:02]
Larry Lepard
Yeah. Right. I'm just like. Because. Well, well. And I think I come to that anger honestly because I feel like honest people in this country have been taken advantage of.
- [55:12]
Bob Burnett
Yeah.
- [55:12]
Larry Lepard
Have been really. And have been damaged and.
- [55:15]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [55:15]
Larry Lepard
And that, you know, I. If there's anything that upsets me more than anything else, it's unfairness.
- [55:20]
Natalie
Yes.
- [55:20]
Larry Lepard
And I think our monetary system is incredibly unfair.
- [55:24]
Natalie
Yes.
- [55:24]
Larry Lepard
And that in a country built on the ideals that America was built on, we deserve a better monetary system, and we're going to get it.
- [55:32]
Natalie
I completely agree with you. And so many people are frustrated that things have gotten so unfair and they're blaming the wrong things.
- [55:38]
Larry Lepard
That's right.
- [55:38]
Natalie
If only it could embrace bitcoin, I think the world would be a better place. Thank you both so much. I'm going to link your work and your companies and your book in the show notes.
- [55:47]
Larry Lepard
Thank you, Natalie. Great to see you.
- [55:48]
Natalie
Great to be here with you.
- [55:49]
Bob Burnett
Thank you, Natalie.
- [55:50]
Natalie
Thank you.
- [55:50]
Bob Burnett
Thank you.
- [55:51]
Natalie
Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show so you don't miss any new episodes. If you can turn on those notifications and leave us a pause. Positive review. They really help the show grow organically with new listeners. We have a free weekly newsletter. You can sign up@thenewsblock.substack.com this show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as financial investment advice. And you should always do your own research. I'm always open to feedback and guest suggestions, so please feel free to reach my team@infoalkingbitcoin.com I'll see you next time.