← Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Lina Seiche: Freedom Through Order in Bukele's El Salvador and Universal Bitcoin Education
00:52:23
Loading summary
Transcript74 lines
- [00:00]
Lena Saihe
Financial education for primary schools. Yeah. We're doing this in El Salvador and the goal is obviously that kids understand like what money actually is. Not how to make money or how to get rich, but just so they can go into adult life as responsible young people who don't let their finances control them down the line, which is so, so normal nowadays.
- [00:28]
Natalie
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the show. We're gonna have a ladies power hour here and get an update from El Salvador. I have Lena Saihe from the Little Hodler. So excited to chat with you. It's been a very long time since we did an interview. So Lena, how are you doing?
- [00:43]
Lena Saihe
I'm doing great. How are you? Well, actually, yeah, we spoke in Amsterdam 500 years ago. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
- [00:52]
Natalie
I know. Time flies. Time flies in bitcoin. By the way, I brought props for me, for you for this interview. I've got. Well, let's actually start with your, your little Hodlers because I'm obsessed with these. Okay. I have.
- [01:04]
Lena Saihe
Oh my God.
- [01:05]
Natalie
I have a bunch guys. I have a lot of the little Hodlers. I've got the baby, I've got the. The blonde. And I have the best one ever. I have a custom coin. Stories little. I love these so much. However did you come up with the idea for these, by the way? Because I feel like every bitco just has a collection because they're the best.
- [01:29]
Lena Saihe
I have no idea. Honestly, it was completely random. And I always tell people that if I had thought of the like business idea of making plushies for bitcoiners, I would not have made plushies for bitcoiners because, you know, like, it's. It's such a male dominated space that and, and the plushies are cute and cuddly and they're plushies and yours are. Look, they're all girls. They're very cute.
- [01:55]
Natalie
I got the girls.
- [01:56]
Lena Saihe
It's not something that, you know, you'd think you make for a space like this, but in not thinking about it and just sort of doing it, apparently I found a niche because bitcoiners have families and, and dogs and yes, men also like plushies. I learned. So it'll work.
- [02:16]
Natalie
Yeah, I'm. And the holidays are coming up. These make really, really great gifts and, and toys. Hopefully this one will become like, we can get us these to get more popular scares. The other thing that I brought because I know you're involved is if you guys are coffee lovers. Being of fire. I got this sent to me by the president of El Salvador. Naive Bukele can you talk to us about this, too? Because it's so amazing that this coffee is like, it's literally like the best tasting coffee in the world. And the packaging makes it even more special. When you get a little envelope from the president, you're like, wait, is this real life?
- [02:58]
Lena Saihe
Yeah. Oh, my God, I'm so happy. You have, like, all the collection of our stuff. That's. I love it.
- [03:03]
Natalie
I know.
- [03:04]
Lena Saihe
Yeah. No, that's exactly. That's the coffee of the president. Actually. The president designed that box himself. Wow. Yeah, it's, Yeah. I don't know. He has a, he has a coffee farm on the, on the highest volcano here in El Salvador. The volcano. Yeah, I got lost on the volcano once. I'm not a, I'm not a hiker, you know, but I went with. I don't know if you know Mark from the bitcoin hotel. He has a hotel in Germany where he called the Bitcoin Hotel. I'm drifting. But anyway, he, he lives here too. We have a lot of bitcoiners coming here, and he's kind of crazy. And he took me to the volcano and we got lost. But anyway, the president's coffee brand is. Yeah, it's. He has a coffee farm there on the volcano and produces specialty coffee. So El Salvador is a coffee nation. Right. So it's literally some of the best coffee in the world. Comes from here. Was a bit under the radar because of circumstances, but he. Yeah, yeah, it's. I don't know. He has, doesn't have enough to do in his private time. He makes coffee and it's very.
- [04:12]
Natalie
I can't believe he has. Yeah, he has time for it. I, I really wanted to get an update from you because the last time we talked, you were, I think, living in Europe. You're German, right? So, like, what made you decide to move down to El Salvador?
- [04:24]
Lena Saihe
Yeah, I came here two years ago. We haven't, we haven't met in a long time. I feel like you're always around because we're on each other's feet, but we haven't met in a long time. Yeah, I moved here two years ago. I was actually going to move to Asia. I, I, I used to live in Asia. Majority of the last 10 years I spent over there. It's to me, one of the best areas in the world to live because you have, like, you have a lot of progress, a lot of opportunities, and you don't have a lot of the issues that you would have in parts of the West. But I came to El Salvador, because, I mean, you got to go once as a bitcoiner, you gotta make the pilgrimage, you know? So I did that, and then I just got stuck. It was. I. I always say that you have to see it to believe it. Because when. When someone like me says it, they think I'm like, it sounds really dreamy if I say, I got off the plane. And from the first day I thought, okay, there's something different here because this country has a. An optimism, first of all, and a sense of progress and a speed of progress and a room for progress. All those things come together and a sort of gratefulness for that as well. So you. You come here and you just feel that, first of all, you can do a lot of things, and second of all, you can actually do those things. So it's not just like, oh, there's an opportunity to do something, but there's a path to doing it. So I came here and I suggested some. Some projects, and we ended up just doing them. And today we're doing loads of different projects. And again, people don't believe me when I say that, but you can. You can find the right people to pitch your ideas to, and then.
- [06:16]
Natalie
You.
- [06:17]
Lena Saihe
Can make them happen. Like, this country sort of conspires to help you say self, self actualize, because in your self actualization, you drive the progress of the country forward, which is how I think it should be. But I've never seen that before in my life. And I've seen a few countries, so it was really special for me. And that's how I didn't go east. I went west.
- [06:40]
Natalie
Wow, you sound like the El Salvador alchemist.
- [06:42]
Lena Saihe
That's cool.
- [06:44]
Natalie
Wait, what?
- [06:45]
Lena Saihe
I mean, yeah, people go like, oh, that sounds so dreamy. Yeah, no, you have to, like, come here and then you'll get it.
- [06:52]
Natalie
Well, and you have to take action, which you did. Coin Stories is proudly brought to you by Gemini. Start your bitcoin savings account today. Plus, investing in bitcoin has never been easier than with Gemini's orange bitcoin credit card. Earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin on everyday purchases like gas, dining, groceries, and more with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fees, and no exchange fees on your rewards. Plus, sign up today and get a 200 Bitcoin bonus when you spend 3,000 in your first 90 days. Apply now@Gemini.com, if you want to stay on top of bitcoin without getting lost in all the noise. Check out the weekly CIO memo from Bitwise Asset Management CIO Matt Hogan. Puts together a quick five minute memo that breaks the biggest stories in digital assets each week. Bitwise has been around since 2017 and manages more than $10 billion across 30 plus strategies. The weekly CIO memo is bold, sharp and totally free. Just go to bitwiseinvestments.com cio memo and always of course, carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto Coinstories is also brought to you by Ledn. Need cash but don't want to sell your bitcoin? Leden is the global leader in Bitcoin backed loans, issuing over $9 billion in loans since 2018 and they were the first to offer proof of reserves. With Leden you get custody loans, no monthly payments and more. Visit Leden IO Natalie and get a quarter percentage point off your first loan. And finally, make sure to get your copy of my upcoming Bitcoin 101 book Bitcoin is for Everyone. The book explains why money is broken and how bitcoin help you build lasting wealth and freedom. It makes the perfect gift for those new to bitcoin. Just visit the link in my show notes. The book comes out November 18th. One of those projects has to do. At least one of them has to do with education, right? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because over the years I've seen that El Salvador has really been prioritizing trying to really teach people about bitcoin. I had the chance to visit Hope House with Stacy when I was down there, which was really, really a meaningful experience. Getting to meet the women that were involved in that and just how much they encourage business and entrepreneurship at all levels and, and obviously they're teaching, they're trying to teach as much bitcoin as possible, right?
- [09:02]
Lena Saihe
Absolutely. Yes. Stacy is one of the big, big drivers here for bitcoin. Actually she was going to come but she's so busy with the conference which I guess we're going to talk about that she sent me. I'm her soldier. But yeah, she's actually one of the first persons people here I talked to and I, she was the one that I, I pitched an idea to and then we did it. And unlike you I wasn't so smart as to get my props. But I have it over there. Hold on. We are doing Oopsies. Financial education for primary schools and it is. So these are school books actually. So it's a school book on money, on the history of money, on here's like what's your dream job with your little cartoon characters?
- [09:55]
Natalie
That's awesome.
- [09:55]
Lena Saihe
With a little huddler. So what this is. Is. It's called what is Money? And it is actually the first. The world's first primary school financial education program, which is kind of crazy, but nobody does it. So there's no public school curriculum in the world for. For set. We started seven years of age, up until 13, that teaches kids about money. So that's incredible. Yeah, so we did that here. We started that, like shortly after I moved here. We started working on that. Stacy needed someone to cover that age group. You said you went to Hope House, Right. So they've been doing it. They. They started it way before the government ever got involved. Right. Because bitcoin beach was born down there at the beach. And yes, they see in the bitcoin office, they oversee the. Yeah, the nationwide bitcoin education actually, if you will. And she had a bitcoin diploma already for the older kids, but she needed something for the younger kids. And so what we did is we created a curriculum that. It's not just about bitcoin, actually, it's about money. Because I feel that. And, and that's. Well, I based it on my personal experience. You know, if you talk to someone and you start with bitcoin is this. Bitcoin is a decentralized currency. You sort of lose them.
- [11:17]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [11:17]
Lena Saihe
But if you start at the beginning, and I mean you have the room to start at the beginning, then you have a much more natural approach to the concept of money, which is something that I feel should be way more talked about. I mean, if you, like, you're in the U.S. right? I saw relatively recently, just a couple years ago, I really realized how normal and normalized it is to be in debt in the modern world, in credit card debt, student loans and whatever. It's actually not just normal, it's normalized. And that is when you cause so much damage. And it makes you wonder why countries don't try and fix that. And obviously there are some underlying systematic reasons for that. And that is why I really think that you need to commend a nation for. For going and saying, you know, we're going to actually fix that. So, yeah, we're doing this in El Salvador and we're. The goal is obviously that kids understand money. The kids understand like, what money actually is, not how to make money or how to get rich, but just so they can go into adults, into adult life as responsible young people who don't let their finances control them down the line, which is so, so normal nowadays.
- [12:43]
Natalie
Oh, it's so true, Lena. We have people here buying burritos like Buy now, pay later.
- [12:48]
Lena Saihe
Okay.
- [12:49]
Natalie
Like, they're taking out debt for doordash. It's crazy. But. Okay, let me. I want to ask you a question based on just my experience that I had in El Salvador. Again, I was there in 2022 was the last time. I went there twice that year. And I remember there being kind of a difference between the understanding and comfortability with bitcoin in El Zonte and bitcoin beach versus San Salvador. So when I was in the capital, I went to the mercado there and walked around and interviewed and talked to people, and there was definitely much more hesitancy toward the wallets, bitcoin in general. I know a lot of people traded the bitcoin that they were given for, I think, local fiat currency. But in El Dante, it was like everyone accepted bitcoin. They had all their wallet options that you can scan at every merchant place. Has it changed at all or how would you rate sort of the adoption over the last few years?
- [13:42]
Lena Saihe
I think the way you can look at it is that Esonte is sort of one step ahead in the journey of the rest of the country, because the bitcoin beach project started in a Zonte and these guys way before the country adopted bitcoin. I mean, the country of Salvador was inspired by what happened in Azonte with the bitcoin beach project, which is that during the pandemic, they. They actually supported the local community with like, little bitcoin donations, and they, like, for example, rewarded the kids for cleaning the beaches with. With little bitcoin donations. So, and this, you know, made waves, and then the country adopted it. So in 2022, I don't remember. Like, it is. The past is sort of vague, but I feel like we were in the thick of the bare market. So El Salvador had this, well, pretty bad timing that they adopted bitcoin and then bitcoin crashed, like adopted it like 50, 60,000 at the top, top, top. And then it crashed. And, you know, how low did it go? 18 at some point, right? It went pretty, pretty low. So Salvador adopted bitcoin and then had two over two years of bear market and a population that doesn't necessarily have the means to sit through two years of a bear market on bitcoin. So, of course, it's very understandable that when they gave out free bitcoin to the population and most people, they would trade that in for fiat money. Like, you can't. You can't blame anyone for doing that. I think what happened since and what I feel now and with the projects we're doing, we're doing a lot of regional research on bitcoin acceptance. And like mapping out things at the moment is. First of all, everyone in El Salvador knows about bitcoin. I saw some survey that was conducted recently that I think 70 something percent. So basically 3/4 of Salvadorans have owned bitcoin in their lifetime, which is way, way more like, I think more than double the. The runner up. And bitcoin is way less stigmatized here than it is many other places. So while you will not be able to spend your bitcoin everywhere, which I don't think is something that we should expect because it's a voluntary thing to do, like nobody will force anybody to accept bitcoin here. It's not that if you ask someone like, hey, do you accept bitcoin? That they go, it's more like either they say yeah or no. Oh, yeah, but I don't really know. No, but I would like to know. So you have an openness here and a sort of normalization that I think is really underrated in the world because first of all, the, the rate of acceptance is way higher than in most other, most other countries by far. And second of all, I think the point at which we no longer stigmatize bitcoin is the like, that's a big, big inflection point. Because bitcoin in, in most of the world is seen as sort of like a thing like gambling or whatever. Even now there is still stigma attached, just changing with Wall street coming in and whatnot. But like, it is still there. El Salvador is beyond that. So in a Salvador, it exists and it is there and it is an offer and people know it and more and more people are using it. And then the rest has to come naturally, I think. I mean, there are a lot of education programs, but in the end, there is a. There is a sort of evolution that money goes through, I think, even though bitcoin speed runs this evolution, of course. But considering that, I don't know, I. I pay salaries in bitcoin. I pay a bunch of stuff in bitcoin. We go for dinner often, we pay. In bitcoin, you can pay your groceries, your phone bill, your utilities, and bitcoin. Some people live 100 on Bitcoin, so you can do that. And so I think that, I mean, what more can you want? Fifteen years into a brand new form of money?
- [17:55]
Natalie
It's crazy to think about these decisions that were made. I mean, yes, they were made at the previous top, but now bitcoin is at over $100,000. And what will it be? I mean, 10 years from now? El Salvador will really benefit from that early adoption in ways that we probably can't even imagine right now. But a lot of people obviously criticize Bukele. I'm actually curious for the friends that you've told that you moved to El Salvador. Has anyone been like, what, wait, you moved to a dictatorship? Because he's got some bad. Bad reputation, right? Like, especially in modern, like, mainstream media here in the US he's deemed. He's vilified, he's demonized.
- [18:36]
Lena Saihe
Yeah. Funny how that works, right? Because here nobody thinks that. So that is a. Of course I hear. Of course I hear that. I hear that a lot, but I never hear that from Salvadorans. So that makes you wonder, right? Because this is an image that, of course, has been painted and portrayed for many years in an attempt by certain groups to prevent Bukele's growing popularity. Because what he is doing here is an example for many countries like El Salvador. El Salvador is a country that for decades and decades was controlled by foreign. By foreign forces. And these sort of. These sort of powers don't, like, if you suddenly manage to make do on your own. And that's exactly what he did. And, of course, there is an apparatus, let's say, that would like to prevent that. So the example that Salvador said is Salvador is a small country that's not gonna, like. Like, I don't think anybody thinks, like, El Salvador as the. The country itself is going to make, like, a huge difference. But the example and the. The idea of El Salvador, that is what travels. And that is, like. It's a very, very briefly summarized explanation of that. That. That image. But of course, it takes years and years of coordinated media campaigns to portray a leader the way that they portray Bukele. And still he has over 90 approval here. People love him, which is. I mean, that is the opinion that matters, I think. And even. Still, he keeps getting more and more popular, even the world over. So even with those coordinated campaigns, he's still around, and things are getting better for El Salvador. So in time, the truth always comes out. Because you will not, like, go to El Salvador and ask anyone on the street if their life is better or worse now than it was 10 years ago. And then you have your answer, and then there are just things that you can no longer deny. It was easier five years ago or so. It was easier to make certain claims. But now, you know, there's been another election. He was elected with, like, even more of like, massive landslide vote. Even more than the first time around. You can see the progress in the country. I think you were here twice too, right? Like, actually, when you come over time, you visit again, you see the progress, you see his popularity. So these facts speak for him. I. Yeah, I mean, sorry, I'm in a. But I have been really disillusioned by the media ever since I came here. I already knew, you know, from their bitcoin coverage, I knew that they're not always very honest, but from the way I saw them write about El Salvador, I have never been as disillusioned as I am today. I think the media actually is very, very dangerous.
- [21:50]
Natalie
Well, it's interesting you say that, because I think I might have mentioned this on my interview with Stacy and Max the last time I spoke with them, but when I went to El Salvador, I really, I think from my journalism backgr, I was just. I asked anyone I could off camera, off camera, like, what do you really think of Bukele?
- [22:06]
Lena Saihe
Do you.
- [22:06]
Natalie
Do you like what's going on? What do you think? And what do you think about some of these claims that are made in. In media outside of El Salvador? And I literally could not meet a single person that didn't like what he was doing, that didn't support him. I could not find one person again on two trips, asking everyone from, you know, drivers to restaurant workers to people in my hotel, like, anyone that I could meet. I was just curious, what do you. And everyone was extremely, extremely supportive of him, which. Which said a lot. And you guys are having a conference, right? It's called Bitcoin Historico is. I think Bukele is involved. Can you tell us just about that conference in general?
- [22:46]
Lena Saihe
Yeah. So Stacy and the bitcoin office are organizing it. And she's really, like. I. I see her like, she really, like, blossomed as she. As she. She built that conference because she had this vision to make something super, super sophisticated that's like way beyond your. Your usual bitcoin conference. For a while, she was speaking of address code, and then we realized, okay, you can't do that to bitcoiners. But it's the conference. It's called Bitcoin Historical is happening in no less than two or just a little over a week. Oh, my God. And it's gonna be in the historic downtown. That's why it has the name. So it's near the. It's at the. The national palace, the National Theater. So that big plaza. I don't know if you've been a very and now it looks even. Like you should come again. It looks even better now. So in a very, like in the very rejuvenated area of San Salvador. And she's basically turned it into this interactive experience, I want to say, because she's pretty much occupying that entire area and anybody can walk in and participate and we have some like, amazing, amazing speakers there. So yeah, she, she went from, oh, I want to do a bitcoin conference to, you know, this, this high end, sophisticated feeling, but completely accessible, of course. So for locals, even more so experience for, for bitcoin. So yeah, it, it grew bigger and bigger and bigger and I feel like, and I, I like the way that it's immersed in, like it immerses you in the, in, in the conference because it's not like it's not separate from the country. Which is an issue I often have with, with conferences is that they, they don't reach the people that they should reach. And then El Salvador, a conference should reach Salvadorans. I think. So. Yeah. I'm really excited for what she has going.
- [24:50]
Natalie
No, that's super exciting. I wish I could be there. I'm unfortunately going to be in New York for my book launch. But I'm going to be thinking about you guys. I know Jeff Booth's going, involved. I saw a great list of speakers, so just awesome. And I hope that next year I can, I can be back.
- [25:05]
Lena Saihe
I mean, you have a worthy excuse with your book. That's pretty cool.
- [25:09]
Natalie
Yeah, maybe. Well, we've got to get it translated. We've got to get it translated because my goal is to reach exactly who you're trying to reach, which is really those newcomers. I mean, we have so many great books in the bitcoin space. Right? But I feel like another sort of entry point, little, you know, offer offering for people to say, hey, what is this thing? And, and why should I pay attention to it? The more the merrier. Right?
- [25:32]
Lena Saihe
There is a whole bitcoin section in the national library. Now you can throw your book in there and there all the time. Like it's full of bitcoin books. We have little hodlers sitting there. So this, like, that's probably the best place in El Salvador to put your book because people come and they open it and like, if it's an entry level book, even better.
- [25:51]
Natalie
I love it. I love it. Coin Stories is brought to you by Speed Wallet. Want to win one million sats just by answering Bitcoin trivia? The top 50 players win free sats every week. And one lucky winner gets a million sats at the end of the month. Speed Wallet makes Bitcoin simple. It is the fastest growing, most loved wallet that allows you to send and receive instantly, swap to Stablecoins, shop gift cards, play games to earn and explore mini apps to pay with Bitcoin or Stablecoins. Speed is also driving real adoption. Stake N Shake now accepts Bitcoin nationwide via Speed payments, earn cash back and rewards when you pay with Speed Wallet. Head to Speed app Coinstories or download the app via the QR code on the screen and use code COINSTORIES10 for 5,000 free sats. BitKey is a Bitcoin hardware wallet with multisig security, inheritance and a recovery system designed for real life. No complex setup and no seed phrases, just true self custody without the stress. It was named one of Time's best inventions in 2024. Use code STORIES for 20% off at BitKey World. Up next, the Bitcoin way. There's only one way to protect your Bitcoin from government, politicians and third party risk and that is 100% self custody. My friends at the Bitcoin Way will train you how to do this the right way the first time. No compromises. Go to the Bitcoin way.com Natalie to speak with the experts about making sure your Bitcoin is secure and private. And finally, Coinstories is brought to you by Genius Group, a bitcoin treasury company listed on the NYSE. American undertaker GNS Genius is building a 10,000 bitcoin treasury and just launched the Genius Academy featuring free courses from Safedina, Moose, myself and more. Start learning today at Genius Academy. AI Genius Group. Genius isn't measured in iq. It's measured in bitcoin. And again, don't forget to pre order my upcoming book. Bitcoin is for everyone. Back to the show. So is there a way for people who are thinking about like getting involved or going to El Salvador, maybe moving to El Salvador? Like where's the best place to start? Because it's interesting. Sort of in the same vein of our earlier conversation, people have the wrong impression about it. Like when I first visited, people were like, oh my gosh, are you going to be safe? Are you okay? Are you sure you want to go down there? And then you realize that it's actually you feel safer than in some western cities by far. But just, just out of curiosity, if someone's listening, they're like, I really want to go to El Salvador. I'm thinking about starting a business there or moving there. What do you say to Them.
- [28:18]
Lena Saihe
Well, first of all, I want to say it is incredibly safe here. And I have a. I, I. Oh, I told you before we recorded, I went to Europe two weeks ago with one of my Salvadorian colleagues, and we also went to Germany. Look, I'm from Germany, right? And I want to preface this with saying I love. I love my country, okay? But it was my friend's first time in Germany. She'd never gone. Of course, she'd seen some of the recent coverage, and she was a little worried, which is kind of ironic for Salvadoran to be worried about her safety going to Germany. But. So we arrived, and I kid you not, in the first three hours of her being in Germany, she had, like, three or four encounters with. Well, let's say uncomfortable encounters with. With. With. With guys doing stuff. Okay? And it was, for me, very. Wow. Yes, it was very. Like, for me, it was like, what the hell is that? Like, you know, I know the coverage is not that great. I don't know if we got really unlucky. For me, it's the first time. It was the first time back in two years or so. But, like, in the first three hours for Salvadoran girl, first time in Germany, the impression was absolutely terrible. And I wanna. I'm saying this because, like, confirmation bias and self perception are a very strong thing. And we grew up thinking that the west is on top of the world and that the west is super, super safe, and that it. It is not possible for a country like El Salvador to be safer than a country like Germany. And now all the Germans are going to come and say, no, but look, the statistics. Lena, why do you spread lies, blah, blah, blah, in the Salvador dictatorship? But the truth is that in El Salvador, what happened to my friend in. In Germany and on her first day has never happened. And it has also never happened to me. It has never happened to her either, by the way. And in El Salvador, I can walk around without looking over my shoulder at night. We can leave our phones on the table and go to the bathroom, come back, it's still there.
- [30:38]
Natalie
And is that because they take crime more seriously? Like, they actually punish when someone does something that's. That's a criminal act?
- [30:47]
Lena Saihe
Well, yeah, I think that is very, like, you know, punishing crime is very effective in fixing. I know that's like a revolutionary idea nowadays for some countries, but that's one thing. And I think another thing is an appreciation of peace. Because, of course, in El Salvador, peace is a very young thing. They did not have it for decades, and now they do have it. And I, I feel that this new high trust society that they gained here in El Salvador, people appreciate it and people make an effort to maintain it. And that's how you, you know, that's how you fix your society because it is a group effort. And so you, and so if you come, you have to respect that. And I feel like you also want to respect that. And so it becomes self reinforcing thing. So one is, of course, people know, hey, if I commit a crime, I go to prison. There's like there, like it's, I mean, that's the way it should be. She asked me and like mutual care for, for each other and for each other's comfort and security. And this is a very beautiful thing to see for me because I, I am very worried about like my own country and some other countries, the direction that things are going. And it's very nice to see the opposite here. But yeah, it's interesting how the perception of that is, is different if you go to, to certain countries. So they will, like, people will tell me like, yeah, but Germany is still safer than X, it's still safer than Y, still safer than Z, which sure, you can say that until it's no longer the case, but you know, well.
- [32:22]
Natalie
Also if you don't prosecute crimes, there are fewer statistics that you get, right? I mean, if you're not going to arrest people, if you don't arrest people, you have fewer arrests. And that I was seeing that in many cities that I reported on. Do you think that El Salvador is like your forever home now?
- [32:37]
Lena Saihe
I, I mean, I hope so. I, I will stay here as long as they want me here. I, I consider myself a guest, right? I'm a guest in this country. And I, I think that if we come, if we come here to, to do whatever it is we want to do, first of all, we have to make sure that we're aligned with the Salvadoran values and that we provide, we, we contribute something useful, you know, and that we have to, we have to work for a place in this country, I feel. So here you have a lot of things that you can do, a lot of things also that you should do to, you know, to add to the progress. But for me, that's incredibly fulfilling because I feel that all of us, we want to build, we want to make something right. We have some sort of goals in our life, whatever that might be. And if you, if you want to, for example, build a company or build a product, create art, write books, do those sorts of things, the, the difference in fulfillment that you get in an environment where that is welcome and where that is fostered versus an environment where you don't have that is insane. Look, we're making school books for the entire school system, public school system of El Salvador. That is not something, that is not opportunity that I, I would have ever had in another country. And these things, they, they pile up. And so, you know, and on top of this, we're doing other things now that we're super, super excited about. Like, and it's just, you can see how the things that you do, the things that you do to, you know, self actualize, as I said before, they become part of like the story of an entire nation.
- [34:21]
Natalie
Yeah. The culture.
- [34:22]
Lena Saihe
Yes, that is a really, really fulfilling thing. And that to, to have that, you need a place that, that allows you to do that and that has that growth trajectory and that has that room for growth. That's probably one of the main like, pull factors for, for people right now who come to El Salvador. Because you could, for example, go to Singapore, right? Singapore. Great. Have you been Singapore?
- [34:50]
Natalie
No, not yet.
- [34:50]
Lena Saihe
Yeah, it's, it's a great place. It's like, it's. It's very futuristic, super safe, super clean, super awesome. Like super good food, super expensive. It's, it's awesome. But it's very saturated. So you can go to Singapore, but your ideas are like, well, maybe you can do what you want to do and they will let you do it, but it's not like you're needed, let's say. So if you go somewhere where you see like, hey, I'm making, I'm making a change, you know, I'm making a difference. I think on a personal level, that's really fulfilling and that is very, very smart way of El Salvador to present itself to the world because it attracts the kind of people that come and want to do stuff. And then, you know, those things, it becomes symbiotic, basically.
- [35:38]
Natalie
Yeah, you're making me think of just like a positive incentive loop and it just builds on itself and feeds and, and we have kind of the opposite in many, in many industries, in many respects in, in America especially now. I mean, certainly we're fortunate in, in many ways, but I feel like a lot of the reason a lot of young people have, they're playing by all the rules. They're like working hard, they're getting the job, they're going to the right school, and they're still not able to feel what you feel, which is a sense of purpose and like you're providing Value and like that value is being rewarded and it makes you feel good and you want to give more. And it's like you're right. It's like you have to create that sort of feedback loop. Otherwise culturally and sort of the spirit of a nation sort of starts to wither away.
- [36:24]
Lena Saihe
That is something very hard for, for a nation to maintain over the long term, especially in a position such as, like the majority of the west, which if you have everything, like if you are at the top, at the tippy top, you know, and you have, you, you have the growth trajectory behind you, so to say maintaining is super hard because you start dealing with small matters to make your perfect life even perfecter and you create, you start creating bureaucracies, you start focusing in on all these little issues and then you become unable to deal with real problems. And it's a very unfortunate cycle that tends to repeat on the grand, you know, like the grand human timeline. You can break out of it. For that you need good leadership. Unfortunately, it's like first of all, it's very rare. And so we become like we, we get fatigued by, by our own, by our own leaders and then by our entire political systems, by the way, which is happening on a grand scare right now. And even then if you have someone with good intentions, you see all the roadblocks they face. So let's say for example, I, I think that if you look at Donald Trump, he has, he has very good intentions and he has great plans and he does a lot of things. But see how at every step of the way he has to fight an entire system and, and a huge, huge, huge bureaucracy and did. The same thing happened in El Salvador, the same thing happens in most so called first world countries right now. And even if you have well intentioned leaders, for example, for them to break out of that is really hard. The difference in El Salvador is, is that he managed which is like, like, like. But we could talk about that for hours. I'm not gonna get into that now. But this is the difference because he managed to, to reform the system and that's why things are moving super, super fast here. Now you can turn that into, oh, he removed checks and balances, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. But you can see that with all the authority that he has in this country, what has he done with it? He has made it better, he continues to make it better. That's why people are happy here. And it's like, it's very hard to fix the outlook we have in many countries. Like you say in the US, for example. I see the same where I'm from in Europe. It's. It's very hard as a. As an individual to. To find your.
- [39:13]
Natalie
To.
- [39:14]
Lena Saihe
To find your way forward when you are, like, living in a broken system and you yourself can't fix that broken system. So then you have to decide what you do. Like, do you. Do you fight against the system? Do you sort of try to, like, weasel your way through? Do you go somewhere else? Like, there are ways. There are options open to you always. Right. But it is, for me personally, that's the main. Like, that's. That's the difference that I see here in El Salvador. The optimism comes from that. The optimism comes from the fact that they've. They basically, they. They fix the system, and the system supports you now, and the system lets you, you know, add your small part to something bigger. If you manage that in the. In the US which is like a whole other story, like, then, you know, there's another golden age ahead. But that's sort of the crossroads where we are right now.
- [40:12]
Natalie
It is really interesting because when I think of El Salvador, when I think of Singapore, when I think of places like Dubai, there's definitely a lot more centralized authority in the sense that rule of law is very, very strong. If you do something wrong, you will be punished. In some of those places, there's more of a sense of surveillance. But yet a lot of bitcoiners are flocking to these places and feeling like they have more freedom, which I think is an interesting dichotomy, and it's also.
- [40:42]
Lena Saihe
Kind of controversial, is that some of the criticism that I get is like, oh, but, you know, you have so much state control in El Salvador. How can you go there as a bitcoiner and look. So as a bitcoiner, I think that you're a bitcoiner if you own bitcoin. So I withdraw from that debate entirely. But there is. There is a bit of a misconception among some people that the. Okay, I'm going to. I'm not going to make friends with the statement right now, but having zero state is not necessarily the best thing. And you can see this in countries that have failed states, okay, you do not have more freedom. Like, it's not a linear thing, that you have more freedom the less state you have, because freedom comes with order as well. And there are extremes. I'm not talking about the extremes right now. But if you ask Salvadorans, for example, if they have more freedom now than they had 10 years ago or the other way around, of course they will tell you they have more freedom now because they didn't have the freedom to go out at night. And years ago, they didn't have the freedom to send their kids to school and be like, be at ease knowing that they will come back safely and not get recruited by gangs or the. The girls would get, like, picked up as a girlfriend for some guy or they would get kidnapped or whatnot. They got freedom through order. And as you say, in. In countries like, Like Dubai, like Singapore, like here you have. You. You have stronger law enforcement. But this order is what you're like, you need. A society needs order. We can't be looking at a country like Japan. Like, I'm. I. I love Japan. Like, I spend a lot of time there. And we always look at Japan. We look like, oh, but this, like, Tokyo is like the biggest city in the world. But it's so clean. They don't have trash cans. How is it so clean? It's so safe. They carry your wallet after you if you drop. It happened to me, by the way. And why is that? Because they have order. And order can be. Order is not like. Order is not the bitcoiner's enemy. Order is a good thing. In. In, like everything, like, in. In. In, like, in a measured way. Right? Order can be enforced culturally. It can be enforced by. By. By the law. It can be enforced by both. But we cannot consider that like a bad thing just because we want ultimate freedom. Like, absolute freedom is actually an illusion.
- [43:13]
Natalie
Well, I actually really agree with you. I mean, I think rule of law is really important. It's something that's obvious over the decades. And cities do not feel as safe as they used to. And rule of law, I think, is rooted ultimately in do no harm to those around you. You have the freedom to do certain things within, you know, under the condition that you're not harming somebody else. And I think you have freedom in those societies with rule of law and order as long as you maintain property rights that you can. What you work for, you get to own and keep. And that's. That's free from the threat of seizure or confiscation. Right. If you say the wrong. So I feel like. I feel like there's such a balance that can be struck and we're not moving in the right direction in our country. Maybe we can turn it around still. Bitcoin can help with that. But it's just so interesting because. Yeah. I mean, even when you think of a child, right, Like a child needs authority. A child needs rules. And Boundaries. Otherwise they're going to run amok. And it's not going to, they're not even going to do things that are smart and healthy for themselves if they are just allowed free reign with no discipline. But at the same time, you know, it's like our country sometimes moves in the direction of just anything's allowed and decriminalize everything. And I just, I don't know how we got here. I really don't.
- [44:32]
Lena Saihe
It is a step by step thing where at some point you, like, you don't realize how far the line has moved until it's gone and you have no line anymore and crime has become legal and you cannot prosecute criminals because. Because it would be intolerant. This is the far, far extreme of what happens once you make, once you make morality relative. Let's say it can start with something very simple such as, you know, we have, we have lines, red lines in our societies. That's how society functions because we agree on certain frameworks that keep our society ordered. Right. For example, do not steal. Okay. Very simple. Property rights. There you go. Respect each other's property rights. Yeah. So it, the problem starts when you, which is a very. In the, in the beginning, everything. It makes a lot of sense, the thought process that it's not always so black and white. Let's say somebody steals, but it's because his daughter was starving and he needed, he steals bread for his daughter because she was like literally on the brink of death. And then any reasonable person will say, okay, well, he had a, he had, he had a just cause. Right? And so at that point you put your framework like you, you, you rel. You make your framework sort of relative. So you, you said, okay, do not steal except in case of hunger. And at that point you start moving the line so you can keep moving the line like, okay, how hungry am I allowed to be? What if the shop owner has everything and I have nothing? And why. You know, you start asking the question, why did the criminal commit the crime? And you start showing empathy to the criminal, which sometimes makes sense, but then at some point doesn't make sense anymore. Then you move further and further into an extreme. That is where we are today, where you can steal and not be prosecuted. Where then shops have to, you know, like the, the photos from San Francisco that from there already a couple years ago where they boarded up the shops where they closed down because they couldn't, they couldn't cover for the, the losses they made from, from theft where law enforcement. They couldn't, they could no Longer trust law enforcement to protect them from theft.
- [46:55]
Natalie
Oh, yeah.
- [46:56]
Lena Saihe
That is a state like you. You could not. You don't jump to this from. Do not steal. It's a gradual process that at every point in the journey makes some sense. And then suddenly you're here and you're like, what the hell happened? And how do you get out of it? It's usually. And this is what. Then we have polarization and usually what happens is one cut and something extreme happens. And then you go, I don't know, to the other extreme, unfortunately, I feel like we're somewhere there.
- [47:25]
Natalie
You are touching on so many truths here. I mean, there are people, places where the toothpaste is locked up more than the criminals are locked up and are sitting here. It's just wild. And I love that quote, actually, Peter McCormick shared it the other day. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. And we have gotten to a really twisted place. And I do think a lot of it is a symptom of broken money and the broken incentives. And it's really, it's inspiring and hopeful to see places like El Salvador where you really, you go out in the street, you talk to the average person of any age and they find hope. They find hope in the future. And I think that that's so important. So maybe as we start to wrap up, I would love for you to kind of share, share your, your message of, of hope for the future and why people should embrace something like Bitcoin, regardless of where they're listening to this from. Why is it such a message of hope?
- [48:21]
Lena Saihe
Because I think that out of all the things in this world right now that we can't control, we can control whether or not we own our money. And a lot, a lot of life evolves from that because we use money every day, right, for many things. And we are taught from childhood up until as long as possible, you know, way into adulthood, that the way our monetary system works is normal and that not owning your money is also normal. And I like, for me, always the biggest, this biggest selling factor, let's say, of Bitcoin was the ability to own your money, which is not even a concept that we consider. And I do wanna, I want, like, that's always the first thing I say is it is money that you can own that really belongs to you, that you don't have to ask anybody permission to take it anywhere, to use it, to send it. Nobody can stop you from doing that. And if you have that freedom, not to mention the, the, the, the, the safety from inflation and from having your money devalued over time. That gives you, especially over the long term, an inner calm and inner security. Because you don't have to spend all this time thinking about how, where do I put my money to protect it, to secure it, research this, research that, stock portfolio, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Somewhere that you have 100% confidence over the long term, nobody's going to touch it. And then you think about the rest of your life. And that for me was always the, the main, like the strongest part about like the best part about Bitcoin. And that gives hope to me.
- [50:13]
Natalie
That was beautifully said, Lena. It's so great to talk to you. I hope we get to do this in person the next time. Where can people find your work and get more information on Bitcoin Historico?
- [50:23]
Lena Saihe
Right, so Bitcoin Historic, I'll start with that is bitcoin historical.com so you can find it there. Also if you follow Stacy, Stacy Herbert on Twitter, which is at Stacy Herbert, she posts about Bitcoin historical 26, 000 times a day. And she's really excited and I love that. And actually she gets. She gets me really excited. So you can see everything there. I mean, if you're in the area, just drop by. If not, then there's gonna be lots of video content, I suppose. Me, you can find me, well, also here, if you drop by, I'm somewhere around and you can find my stuff on the little huddler.com and you can find.
- [51:09]
Natalie
That one.
- [51:09]
Lena Saihe
You can't find that one is unique.
- [51:13]
Natalie
And yeah, me, this is my own personal one. It's scarce. It's one of one.
- [51:18]
Lena Saihe
Absolutely, yeah. And me you can find on Twitter at Lina Saiche.
- [51:26]
Natalie
I just learned how to say it.
- [51:27]
Lena Saihe
So that's actually really cool. Most people can't, which is entirely a German language issue.
- [51:37]
Natalie
Well, Lena, it's been so great. I'm gonna link to all of those in the show notes, so make sure to check them out. Thank you so much for your time and I can't wait to see you at some point in all Salvador.
- [51:46]
Lena Saihe
Yes. You're always welcome. Thank you.
- [51:48]
Natalie
Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show so you don't miss any new episodes. And if you can turn on those notifications and leave us a positive review, they really help the show grow organically with new listeners. We have a free weekly newsletter. You can sign up@thenewsblock.substack.com this show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as official investment advice, and you should always do your own research. I'm always open to feedback and guest suggestions, so please feel free to reach out@infoalkingbitcoin.com I'll see you next time.