← Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Coin Stories with Natalie Brunell
Paula Pendley: The Intersection of Bitcoin, AI, & Legal Power Plays
00:43:12
In this episode with attorney Paula Pendley, we discuss: - Legal concerns in Bitcoin Nuisance lawsuits filed against Bitcoin miners Bitcoin value proposition for the mainstream audience ---- Coin Stories is powered by Genius Group (NYSE American...
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- [00:00]
Paula Penley
They want to shut you down. It's not about coexisting. It's. It's a shutting down. And, and that is where we get intensely aggressive in trial and in court. This is a way bigger effort going on, and so we have to expose that because that resonates with a jury. Hey, everyone.
- [00:23]
Natalie Brunel
Welcome to the Coinsories Podcast. I'm Natalie Brunel, and here with me is a very special, special guest, my best friend, someone who's now involved in the bitcoin space. I'm so proud. Paula Penley. She is a partner at Nelson Mullins. Paula, what an honor to have you here with me.
- [00:40]
Paula Penley
Thanks for having me. Thanks for inviting me, Nat.
- [00:43]
Natalie Brunel
So we've had quite a journey, and I just want to share a little bit of a backstory. I met Paula in college. We attended Pepperdine University. We both studied broadcast journalism at the time. And I want you to share what your dad did and why you were inspired to do that. So. But you went on a different career trajectory. I went off and worked in television news and bopped around. You went straight into law school. I think you made a very wise decision getting your law degree. And now here we are. You came with me to my first bitcoin conference to support the launch of COIN Stories. She's been there since day one. We have a funny story. We'll share about Miami and that conference. And. And now you're actually working and contributing in the space, representing public miners. So first of all, let's just hear your backst from your words. Tell people about who you are.
- [01:31]
Paula Penley
Of course. Okay. Yes. So we went to college together. I went there to. I thought I was gonna broadcast journalist. So my dad was a news anchor in Shreveport, Louisiana, this small town, like CBS affiliate there. And I just grew up going to the station. I'd watch him. I interned there as a reporter, you know, in school for fun on the summer for like two weeks or something. But yeah, I just grew up just sitting. I'd sit behind the camera and on the. In the studio and just watch him. And that's what I really wanted to do. So went to Pepperdine. They had that big state of the art facility where they had all this new equipment. And I remember my dad even visited and he's like, when you get in the real world, it's not gonna look like this. This is all brand new stuff.
- [02:13]
Natalie Brunel
I know we were lucky.
- [02:14]
Paula Penley
I know we were really lucky and. But yeah, I got, I got, I guess toward the end of my, you know, in college, it was maybe junior or Senior year, and my dad kind of calls me and he's like, listen, you know, I'm kind of watching the news and it's, you know, just watching the evolution of the industry, of the news, broadcast industry. And it was really changing and it was very competitive. It wasn't. And we've seen it all like since we've grown up. The local news isn't the same that it used to be. And he kind of, he could forecast that. And so he's like, if you really want to set yourself apart, you should maybe go to law school. And so I did a little research. I looked into all these news anchors, you know, the well knowns of the time, and they all had law degrees. All the females had, a lot of them had law degrees. And so I thought, okay, well then I'll go to law school. And that's. I went to Penn Pepperdine, went straight through, graduated from there. But when I was in law school, I thought I would maybe do con law or like entertainment law. That would be like a natural gravitation from just broadcast. And so. But I really didn't enjoy it very much. And I tried out for a closing argument competition. My first, my, the end of my first year of law school and I won. So I was like, well, maybe, maybe I think I might be good at this. You know, I think I might have a skill set in that. So I clerked for Judge Myra and I watched, you know, through that time with his docket unfolding and everything like that. And then I'd go sit in the civil courtroom and watch those cases and those trials unfold. And I joined because of my, of winning the trial competition. I was asked by a professor there to be part of the competing trial team. And so me, along with three other, you know, law students at the time, we were part of the national trial competition and we ended up winning. We ended up winning the national trial competition, which is completely wild. And I haven't, I haven't even talked about this story in so long. It's so funny to think that, but yeah. And then, so the next thing you know, I'm working at a trial firm and then I've kind of bounced around to new firms. I'm now at Nelson Mullins. And since then, you know, I've tried, I don't know if, maybe 10 cases to verdict, which is actually a lot as a litigator and. Yeah, and you went the broadcast route. But it's funny, our worlds have collided. We've all come back together after that.
- [04:31]
Natalie Brunel
That first conference together Coinstories is brought to you by Genius Group, a Bitcoin treasury company listed on NYSE American ticker GNS. Genius is on its way to hodling 1000 Bitcoin in its treasury while educating the world on a bitcoin first future. Genius is also launching the Bitcoin Academy with courses from the likes of Safedin Amus, author of the Bitcoin Standard. Join the launch waitlist via the QR code on the screen or the link in my show notes and receive the weekly bitcoin treasury newsletter. Plus a chance to win a whale pass to bitcoin 2025 in Vegas this May. Genius Group Genius isn't measured in iq. It's measured in bitcoin and friendship. Going strong since I met her at a Pepperdine bathroom while I was actually on tour. On the tour, before I even went to the school. That's a whole nother story. But it's interesting knowing your family's background because your dad worked and ascended through the golden age of television and then things started to change so rapidly where everyone's shooting their own stories and you're basically doing the work of five people, but you're getting paid less than what one salary would be, I think decades ago. And it was if you didn't have that guidance. I mean, I wish that I had someone tell me that this is where this industry is going because all your professors, I feel like, you know, they haven't really worked in the industry, right? And they don't give you that piece of information. And so I wish I could have maybe avoided some of, some of the grunt work.
- [06:01]
Paula Penley
But, well, it all worked out for you. Honestly, I think the grunt work that you went through has made you, why you're so, you know, proficient and skillful and like, successful in what you do now because had you not gone through the, the grind of like small town media and you, you know, the knocking on doors, the begging people to give you an interview, I mean, you went and now it's, it doesn't even bother you. And like here you are so well.
- [06:23]
Natalie Brunel
And you know, you've been through the journey, but I'm just so proud because people look at you and they'll, they'll watch you and they might not know you. Some of the people watching do know you because you've been with me in this whole bitcoin world. But like, you come off so, you know, you're very kind and refreshing and light hearted and easygoing, but you're a shark in the, in the trial and I just, I Love that you are able to kind of bring out your ferociousness through your hard work. You do so much research. Can you talk about what a trial. Trial attorney actually does? Because I think of Elle Woods.
- [06:54]
Paula Penley
Right. Think of you. I know everyone always compares. They think the trial courtroom and the courtroom is just like what they see on tv, like suits or Legally Blonde and things like that. So it's not as exciting, unfortunately, in the courtroom, but, yeah. So we, you know, you as. I'm mainly a civil defense attorney, so I've done a ton of toxic tort defense litigation, which is probably like a foreign word from people who aren't in the lawyer world, but it's essentially. It's products liability. It's a section of products liability where. But in the bitcoin world, I've gotten involved in nuisance litigation, and I have a lot of background and became an expert in nuisance litigation because I tried or I was involved in a team that tried two cases back to back. I mean, I feel like I lived in North Carolina trying these nuisance cases and that, you know, something that I hadn't done before. But I learned so much about it. I understand the roadmap of nuisance litigation. I know exactly who's, like, you know, what they're going for on the plaintiff side, their strategy. I've kind of seen it. And, you know, our team was actually called in last minute to try some of those North Carolina cases, those nuisance litigation cases, because, you know, they had gotten some bad verdicts and they wanted to just try something new. So we collaborated with another law firm, and we really. There's no more litigation on nuisance. We did very well, and we had. And the client was very happy with that. So we kind of got our name as being these really aggressive trial attorneys, especially in the nuisance world. And then, yes, the toxic tort world, we have, you know, just. I started trying a. A toxic tort case in 2014, and ever since then, that's been kind of the bulk of my career, and even in New York. So we're in New York right now, and I was here, living here from all of January and February of last year trying a case, and we got a unanimous defense verdict in a really hard jurisdiction like Newark because of just the aggressive tactics that we use. But I know, I guess it is hard for people because I feel like my natural personality is to be, you know, bubbly and friendly, and I don't, you know, that's how I am. But you have to, as a lawyer, put you. You have to step into another role. You become a zealous advocate for someone else because someone is relying on you and you have a client who is depending on you and they have a story to tell. And my job is to tell the story and to tell it right. And because, you know, you will see plaintiffs attorneys, they play their store, they have the case well before the defendants do, right? So they have, they've worked up the case, they know everything. We don't get it until the complaint is filed. And so they have kind of, they have this strategy in place and we have to then look at what their, what their narrative is going to be, what their story is, what the agenda and the ulterior motive behind a lot of it. Because there's sometimes they have someone who's the plaintiffs, but really behind the scenes it's a much bigger, like, well funded machine that's, that's pushing their agenda at the time. So our job is to, you know, pull the wool out, pull the curtain back. And we have to expose that to the, and tell our side of the story. Because a lot of the time, you know, you see it even in, outside of civil litigation, but in criminal litigation, if someone is immediately, you know, if, if they're sued civilly or in criminal court, people automatically think, you know, it's hard. But they, they have kind of came up with their own conclusion. Conclusion. So as a defense trial attorney, we have to, we have to remind them there's another side of the story. And so that's, that's what we really do.
- [10:31]
Natalie Brunel
Well, I actually, I don't know if you'll remember this, but I think we had a conversation early in my journalism career because when you're a reporter, oftentimes the, the other side doesn't want to talk to the reporter, but the plaintiff side absolutely does. There are so many victims you talk to and so you naturally kind of feel for the victim and the people. I was interviewing the small town person that's harmed by the big company. I've done a lot of those stories and I remember, I think coming to you saying, you know, but you're representing that other side. It's like you're representing the bad guy. How do you, how do you justify that? And you talked about how everyone deserves a hearing and their voice to be heard and they have to tell their side of the story. And that's how our court system was designed in this country to be the most fair right.
- [11:18]
Paula Penley
Due process. It exists. And frankly, the media today, and really probably, you know, that's what's the adage like what bleeds leads or something, you know, so, and that's true. I mean it's easy. People understand the David and the Goliath story people, it's easy narrative to tell. And frankly, media is a business and they are, you know, vying for clicks and ad revenue and things like that. So. And they have deadlines, quick deadlines. And people like you said, are underpaid. Now we're doing one man band stuff. So they need a quick story and it's really easy to tell the victim story. And it's not, you know, they don't want, they don't have investigative long magazine reporting now where you really dig into it. And if they did, then they would find that really, you know, independent studies are showing that there is no issue. And we've shown that in numerous nuisance cases, you know, the, for example, they'll even make these claims of, you know, my past nuisance kids I've had, they're making claims of personal injuries and all these things. So we're thinking people are actually being harmed or that their water is contaminated. But in the actual case and trial, they never bring that cause of action. They bring it in the court of public opinion. So yes, you'll read it in the newspaper and so you think people are getting harmed. But when they bring the lawsuit, that there's, they don't bring a personal injury claim. And it's because they know that, you know, the causation standard they wouldn't win because especially in Texas, for example, it's a really high standard when you're, when you're claiming something's harming you. So it's like you have to show a statistically significant doubling of the risk in a substantially similar circumstance. And you kind of have to break that down. But in those three, like they would never be able to prove that, especially if you were to look back and you could, you've talked to experts and they show you the peer reviewed literature and you can look at the epidemiology and determine whether or not they do have a case and you realize that they don't. And so they wouldn't bring that in a courtroom because a judge would throw it out on a motion to dismiss. But you know, in the court of public opinion it's a headline, you know.
- [13:16]
Natalie Brunel
Well, let's zoom in on some of these nuisance cases and, and what sort of challenges bitcoin miners are up against because maybe some people have watched national stories that claim that I think it's, it's noise Right. It's essentially that the bitcoin miners are too noisy and they're causing harms to the, to harm to the local community. But what does that actually mean? What's actually happening?
- [13:38]
Paula Penley
So you know, I am in an independent litigation right now, so there's a pending lawsuit. So I won't comment on anything with respect to a certain case. I just can't do that with the attorney client privilege. But I will say that, you know, looking into this more behind the scenes, there are ulterior motives involved and agendas. And we're talking the, you know, Sierra clubs of the world, the Earth justice clubs of the world, the green pieces, you know, they are very anti digital currency, very anti bitcoin, anti any industry tied to fossil fuels or energy consumption at all. So they are well funded and they have a lot of power behind them and they will, and it's part of their agenda to make this a huge deal for them. And you're looking at it from, you know, the, they set up these data centers and if there are complaints, I mean these are veteran run companies, you know, these are good hearted civilians and they, if they're, first of all you need to identify if there is an issue, who it's an issue. And then these, you know, the clients that I've had have all really wanted to rectify or remedy and have gone through a lot of effort and expense to enhance the facility and address any kind of concerns. But the issue is, you know, it's not just that it's a big machine that's going on well behind the scenes. And that's why you see the media, you know, that being a piece in the national news was not by mistake, that was intentional. And you really, and then if you look down, if you get down to it, you know, they're hoping that it'll just, you know, it'll prevent other companies growth and it's preventing innovation, it's preventing economic progress. Because I mean you think about, we have data centers, we're talking about the big bitcoin mining. But this could really in the future you have data centers for cloud computing, data centers for AI. I mean there's going to be more and more data centers and so we have to learn to coexist. And it can't just be, you know, we won't take yes for an answer because that's how it feels like in some of these circumstances. Because we, we will, we will rectify something and it's not good enough. They want to shut you down. It's not about Coexisting. It's. It's a shutting down. And that is where we get intensely aggressive in trial and in court and making sure that this isn't just this poor victim or alleged victim. This is a way bigger effort going on. And so we have to expose that because that resonates with a jury.
- [16:24]
Natalie Brunel
Well, we've talked about this. I just think that the media has done such a disappointing job when it comes to bitcoin in general. Whenever they do a big piece, it tends to be a hit piece, or they interview people that are not real experts or they're promoting their own agendas. And in the case of the stories that I've seen with bitcoin mining, it's so inflammatory and negative, and they make it seem as if it's boiling the oceans. And it's. I. I think one of the recent stories I saw, which I was so sad about, they're claiming that the bitcoin miners are harming animals, that the animals are hearing the humming. And it's just to connect those dots, and to your earlier point, I mean, you can't really prove any sort of causation, but it riles up the emotions of the viewers. And all of a sudden, people think, this industry is terrible and I want it nowhere near my town. Right, right.
- [17:13]
Paula Penley
And, yeah, it's emotional. Nuisance is emotional. And it's. A lot. Is perception, too, and a lot of psychology. Because sometimes, like, for example, if you and I are chatting and I'm like, do you hear that? And maybe you didn't hear anything before, but now all of a sudden you hear it too, because you're listening to you for it or, you know, because then it's widespread and you're like, does it bother you? Because it bothers me. Did I get a headache? You got a headache? My dog. My dog isn't feeling well. And so all of a sudden it's this emotional and it spreads. And. Yeah, and that's, you know, that's the challenge because it's a really sympathetic plaintiff. And so. And you have to have sympathy to people. And, you know, we're talking about noise, but there's also. Also odor nuisance litigation and things like that that bother people's or allegedly bother people's, you know, the use. And first of all, I don't even think I define nuisance litigation. First of all, it's just so the viewers know or the listeners. Nuisance litigation is when someone else is alleging that another party is substantially and unreasonably interfering with the use and enjoyment of their real property. So it has nothing to do with personal injury, like physical, you know, and nothing to do with environmental issues or anything that it's just real property. Like they're alleging that they can't enjoy, they can't go out and barbecue like they used to or something like that. That's kind of what. Or you hear it and you know, you have the, the PE codes that you can't get too loud because there's a house party and you're interfering with your neighbor who wants to sleep at a certain time or something. That's really like the gist of it. But yeah, I mean it becomes just this emotionally driven issue and it is a disservice to the, to the industry because I don't, I, you know, there's so much good that the industry does. It's a great tax revenue generator. It is, they give back to the community. They college scholarships, school scholarships, high school scholarships. They sponsor school events around the community, firefighting, emergency services and you know, depending on what stadium you're in. But like in Texas, where I live, you know, it's an inner, like it stabilizes the grid, the electric grid are caught. So anyway, there, there's a lot of benefits the industry does, I mean, well beyond even that. But, but it's unfortunate because what ends up happening is, you know, not understanding something breeds fear.
- [19:33]
Natalie Brunel
Yes.
- [19:34]
Paula Penley
And you can probably analyze it or analogize it to, you know, I don't know, when the Internet was new or even like railroads back in like the 19th century, it was probably faced with a lot of skepticism. But as you go on and people learn about it and they understand the benefits of it, it's widely accepted and you know, mining isn't going away, so we have to figure out a way to coexist.
- [19:57]
Natalie Brunel
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- [21:58]
Paula Penley
Yeah, I mean I, you know there will always be a need for lawyers in this industry because it's a lot of different areas. You know you have the regulatory side of things where you, they, they need, you know you have to make sure you're in compliance with certain issues. And then there's the ICOS and then there's the you know, you know, hedge fund creat. So that's kind of another area where they're, you know my firm for example, we have a subgroup that handles a lot of the digital currency, a ton of issues. But then as the litigator side, I mean there's going to be always going to be contract disputes, you know like patent disputes as new technology innovates and and then with specific to data centers like in the future there's going to be a lot more popping up and you know in some areas they're popping up in very remote locations. In other areas they're dependent on like a power source. So they need to be a little closer to their, to wherever they're getting their power. And so you know in the industry we've got the really interesting thing about this noise nuisance litigation is that it's so new right now and the law's catching up to it. So the precedent we set now in these types of cases will impact all industries like A.I. i mean, because then they will now have a case law, present orders from a court that they can. That we can put and attach to a deposition or attach to a motion. We're making an argument. So now we have the legal precedent set. So it's really important to do it now because it will make a few, make an impact on the future.
- [23:34]
Natalie Brunel
I've seen what you actually brought up in Texas with. I went to visit the bitcoin miner Bit Deer, which is a sponsor of this show, and the community, everyone that I interviewed loved them. They took over an aluminum smelting plant that.
- [23:51]
Paula Penley
Alcoa, right? Yes.
- [23:52]
Natalie Brunel
Yeah. That had closed and shut down. Half the town was employed by Alcoa. Everyone lost their jobs. And this was creating a renaissance for the town, bringing people in, generating tax revenue, paying for things like the fire department, creating community events. And I didn't meet a single person that was against it. But then you see these stories popping up of again, like this community really wants this bitcoin miner out. You see politicians against it. So it seems like going forward, as more data centers and potentially miners pop up all over potentially the country, you're going to need more people dealing with. With lawsuits like this.
- [24:30]
Paula Penley
Yeah. In particular, and, you know, plaintiffs lawyers aren't going away. Right. They. They need jobs too. And so what they do and what they've done in every nuisance case I've been involved in, they have put out advertising and local newspapers to drum. They will knock on doors like foot. They'll get on the foot and call and knock on doors and telling people, hey, do you hear that? You know, you're planting the seed, getting people to sign a petition. They get local politicians who need a platform to run on right before the primaries, get them really involved in it because they need something to run on. And this is going to be, you know, their agenda. So, yeah, plaintiff's attorneys are always going to find a way. But what makes it really difficult in that circumstance is you can't really. You can't really rectify some. You can't really determine if there's really an issue or if it's just a plaintiff's attorney trying to make a big lawsuit against a, you know, what they see as a very solvent, profitable company. Right.
- [25:29]
Natalie Brunel
So you've been watching this space now since 2021. A little more of a backstory. We attended our first bitcoin conference together in 2021. I know I requested a media pass. Paula was my producer.
- [25:43]
Paula Penley
Producer.
- [25:47]
Natalie Brunel
And we we were there so that I could launch the podcast and I wanted to meet people that would potentially be on the show. And I'll. I'll forever be so grateful for how much you were supporting me and helping me hand out, like, these business cards with a QR code. We had a captive audience in the men's bathroom line.
- [26:04]
Paula Penley
Oh, yeah, obviously, I remember.
- [26:06]
Natalie Brunel
Very male dominated conference. And so they were standing in line, which never happens. It's always women standing in line.
- [26:12]
Paula Penley
It's always the women long line.
- [26:14]
Natalie Brunel
So we were handing out business cards. Coin Stories shot up to the top of the charts immediately, but you were so supportive and at the time, you weren't into bitcoin and now you totally are. You're hodling. So I just want to get your observations as you've seen the space through your vantage point.
- [26:31]
Paula Penley
I know, it's so funny looking back to see how now we're like, the worlds are colliding and how we've gone different paths. And so you were telling, we've been best friends, everyone, since college. We've known each other for a very long time. And I remember you were telling me about bitcoin, but it really never resonated. It just wasn't in my wheelhouse at the time. You know, I was a child attorney doing like products, livability stuff. And you have a social life and I didn't really. And I thought maybe you were just doing, you know, news reporting on bitcoin, but you got very involved in it pretty quick and you would just, in conversation, it would come up. And then you asked me to go to that pot, go to the conference in Miami in 2021 to launch coin Stories. And it was so much fun. We, like, couldn't get into anything.
- [27:16]
Natalie Brunel
Yes. We got turned down for every party.
- [27:18]
Paula Penley
Nobody knew us.
- [27:20]
Natalie Brunel
And Parker Lewis, you know, we'll never know.
- [27:22]
Paula Penley
Yeah. Yeah. Well, poor Parker will never let him live it down. But yeah, so we would literally hustle and try to get backstage. And I remember I would pretend like I was either your producer, your videographer, your lawyer, or whatever you were, you.
- [27:38]
Natalie Brunel
Were produc with me.
- [27:40]
Paula Penley
So, yeah, it's. It's so amazing and it's really a kind of. To look back on it, amazing story. If anyone's ever listening and thinking about making a change in their career or a change in their career path, like, you're a great example of someone, you know, finding a niche and finding a hole kind of in the market and capitalizing on it. Because it wasn't just coin stories, like launched your Podcast, it was like you. One year we knew nobody, the next year we show up at 2022 and I'm, I'm having to take pictures of you and complete strangers because everyone is walking up to you. You just blew up so fast in this industry. So if anyone's listening and wants to change your career, talk to Natalie, because you did it right. But yeah, as far as observations go, it was, you know, I was really just, I think that at that conference, it's the first time I like downloaded a wallet and even figured out what it was. And then I had met Safe at one of the dinners that we went to and so I read the bitcoin standard and then I just kind of, I was, you know, and then I obviously was listening to coin stories, so I was influenced. I was heavily. You were my first influencer. You orange peeled me. And then I was influenced forever after that. And then I just became an investor and I thought, you know, I was going to the Wyoming Bitcoin Summit. There's all these different summits with you. And I was meeting a lot of people in the industry and everyone is honestly, honestly so interesting. And it's really interesting people. You have depth in conversation. And I just, I'm really lucky to have met the kind of people in the industry that I have through you because they're, you know, I don't know, innovating and talking about new ideas and creativity is just like kind of joy sparking really and motivating. And so I have always just kind of been involved that way just to follow and listen along and investing. And I thought maybe in my legal career, because I was spending so much my personal time, I was like, well, what can I do legal wise in the industry? Like, how can I provide value? And at first I thought, well, maybe I could do some like estate planning for people if they're not, if they don't understand how to like their key, you know, how do they, if, you know, they get hit by a bus or something, how does their family get access to their bitcoin?
- [29:58]
Natalie Brunel
That's so like nonchalant.
- [29:59]
Paula Penley
I know, sorry. And so, yeah, and, but I, I did that for a little while and I got great, great individuals who come to me for help there. But I ended up having to refer a lot of that out. It ended up just people specialize like probate law and, and that kind of work, that's their specialty. And so like smaller boutique firms handle that mainly. And so that didn't really work out. And then, but then, you know, the litigation Wise. That's the trial work, you know, because, you know, industry, you know, new things, you know, it does breed litigation. It becomes like, in the crosshairs of litigation, unfortunately. And so when people need advice to prevent a lawsuit, that's, you know, I try. We try to head off, you know, we want to be counsel. We want. You want to advocate for people, but we also want to be counselors for them and counsel them to prevent kind of litigation and mitigate any risks and things like that. So we're there for that. But then if a lawsuit is filed, we will be very aggressive on your behalf and a very zealous and professional, but zealous advocate.
- [31:04]
Natalie Brunel
A very bubbly shark way. Yeah, no, it was fascinating because I knew that you were doing those nuisance cases in North Carolina. And so for it to just perfectly align with this, it's just so fascinating.
- [31:16]
Paula Penley
It is, yeah. It's funny how the world works. You know, someone else is pulling the strings, and they know exactly what they're doing. So we just. It's amazing how, you know, you could have. I don't think I could have planned this. We went to a bitcoin conference. And I'm not saying that I didn't anticipate you being so as recognizable in the space as you are, because I knew you were. I knew you would, though. I knew, but it happened so fast, and here you are, and then, you know, even my legal career would. I think I'd be representing, like, public minors, you know. No, I would have never guessed that. But based, you know, it just. It's funny how life works out like that.
- [31:50]
Natalie Brunel
Well, in addition to the fact that you're obviously now working in the space, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because I feel like you're so relatable. There are a lot of people, a lot of women who still watch my content and don't have bitcoin. And I just. It's sometimes hard to break through those barriers of why they should take this seriously. And I know parts of the space, it's like it feels technical or it feels overwhelming, or it's a lot of finance bros. What works for you, especially if you're sharing the message. I know you're telling people that you're into bitcoin. What works for you in terms of explaining why people should look at bitcoin and take it seriously?
- [32:27]
Paula Penley
I know it is funny because it's not necessarily intuitive. If it's not, you know, for me, like, there was a big impasse for a while. For me, understanding it, I had to go to the conference to really get it and meet people and understand it. But you have to take the time to educate yourself. You have to be a critical thinker and really think about why it makes sense and why it's a store of value and understand how you're using it. And as an investment, it's just, you're diversifying. I mean, I know there's Maxis in the world and things like that, but it's hard to get a whole group of women to invest everything in something that they don't really understand. So a lot of it just at the beginning, it starts with education. And I think as more women become involved in it, I mean, you hold the women in bitcoin conference like luncheon and you do a of lot as an example. You set an example. And there's a lot of other women like Haley and Aubrey and all these and Carly, they all hold, you know, they set examples. And the more women in those kind of positions, I think it'll, it'll kind of open the, open the doors for more women to want to become involved and really want to understand it. Because I don't know why, but finance generally, it's always gravitated toward a male. And I, you know, in tech even, you know, it's gravitated, it's. Males gravitate toward it. I don't know why. So there needs to be more STEM programs, I guess, at the beginning. But yeah, so I think that's just what resonated with me really is just taking the time to really understand it. Listen to the podcast, read the books, become friends and then.
- [34:05]
Natalie Brunel
Well, it's interesting because I think I got you onto bitcoin Twitter. I don't think you were really big on Twitter.
- [34:10]
Paula Penley
No, I was not. Probably. If you look at it under Twitter, it probably says as the year I joined was probably the month I was in the conference.
- [34:19]
Natalie Brunel
Yeah, Twitter I was not on prior to bitcoin. I just, it wasn't a platform that attracted me and I was more on the visual platforms like Instagram. And I see a lot of women mostly gravitate towards TikTok or Instagram right now. And there's not as much, I don't know if there's not as much bitcoin content, but I mean, you watch podcasts, you listen to stuff. Is it more, more lifestyle driven? Like what do you like to watch and listen to that? You think bitcoin should kind of get into the conversation in order to blossom and maybe get more Attention from women?
- [34:51]
Paula Penley
Yeah, that's a good question. Because, you know, I'm a huge podcaster. I love listening to podcasts. I had a commute when I was living in. I live in Dallas now, but as you know. But I was in Los Angeles for a while, and I had a long commute, so I became obsessed with podcasts. And I think I actually learned by listening, too. Just. That's just me personally, so. So that became very easy for me. But, yeah, Twitter always found it very. It's news. And then, you know, the comments on Twitter can be aggressive, you know, and so you're like, why? You know, and it just, you know, I'm not a public figure, so it didn't make sense. But you have to be on bitcoin Twitter to kind of learn what's going on. You don't want it to get. It doesn't. You don't want it to become like an echo chamber. But you want to know, you have to stay up to date on it. Just like any current event, just like, you know, watching the news or it's just a way of staying up to date. But to answer your question, how to get more people, you know, because of, you know, Instagram is visual. You know, I guess the Carlis of the world have kind of made it fun. You know, they do little funny videos.
- [35:58]
Natalie Brunel
Carla.
- [35:58]
Paula Penley
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I guess maybe more shorts and things like that. That. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know how to get more people or more women involved through Instagram and TikTok.
- [36:16]
Natalie Brunel
I've struggled with it because when I go on Instagram, it's like a totally different world from Twitter. And I look at it for travel, lifestyle cooking, wanderlust thing, relationship stuff. And I don't know, there's not a very strong. Maybe it's just my algorithm, but it's not a strong finance or bitcoin component. And then on Twitter, it's just bitcoin.
- [36:38]
Paula Penley
Isn't that funny? Well, I'm, like, actually surprised that your algorithm isn't fine. I would think it would be all. And you couldn't get away from it. It. But I know it's puppies, it's doctors. Right, I know. Well, that's another thing. The algorithm kind of messes everything up, because if you are, for example, a female and you're. You're a lifestyle, you're on there and you're looking for lifestyle stuff, like clothes to wear new, you know, gifts to buy people for Christmas, things like that. You know, the algorithm shows you exactly what they've heard you say. You know what, we will, we will talk about a hotel, you know, and just a conversation over dinner. And then the next thing I look at my phone and that hotel is nothing. It's the only thing I see on my Instagram. Wait, this is bizarre. So big brother. But yeah, that just happened to us. So that happens. So then the algorithm really messes it up. So I don't know, we gotta break.
- [37:25]
Natalie Brunel
Through that algorithm before we start to wrap up. We were having an interesting conversation off camera about ChatGPT. It's something that I've tried to use more, but I've stumbled because I, I, I was telling Paula as I, I, I'm working on a book, I was trying to find Barbara Walters quotes because she was an icon of mine when I was younger and it made up fake quotes from her. And I was curious how ChatGPT works in the legal world because I would imagine people are using it more and that that has caused some problems, right? What happened?
- [37:55]
Paula Penley
Oh yeah, it's caused a lot of problems. So for example, Chat GPT. So these lawyers, I mean this is how there's, there's a couple of case studies of this happening. But I remember the first one, the, that the land case that, you know, all the lawyers heard about and it was, was when these lawyers use Chat GPT to draft a motion and they didn't. When you cite a case, you have to shepherdize it a, you have to find out if it's good law. You can't, you have a duty of candor to the court to, and you can't mislead the court. So you have to only put in cases that are good precedent and actually support the sentence that you just said you can't cite to bad law. And, and these lawyers drafted a motion submitted to the court and the cases didn't even exist. They were not real cases. And a clerk was looking through one of the judge's motions and discovered that these were made up cases and those attorneys were sanctioned. I don't know how much, but you get fined if you do something like that. You can be disbarred. And so the, the aba, the American Bar association has the like model rules of professional contact. And you have to actually pass to, in each state there's a bar you have to pass, but you also have to pass this like national ethics code. And so now the ABA is even adopting certain in their, in their model rules, which all the states will follow the model, the states will model the ABA rules in their State for rules of professional conduct. And, and yeah, and they're stay. They're putting like things in there about you have to disclose if you use Chat GPT or anything like that when you submit anything to the court. A, Federal judges are now putting it in their scheduling orders. So like you have to. These 16B scheduling orders that you receive. Now the last line has been changed and it'll say, like, if you used any kind of AI, you must disclose it to the court. Not all of them are like that, but. But it's really interesting because. Because talking about innovation and technology. So there's two huge legal resources you use when you're a lawyer, trial attorney, or any kind of lawyer. It's LexisNexis and Westlaw, which is Thompson Rogers. But there's other competitors, but those are the two main ones. And I don't know when it was, but Westlaw acquired. I think it's case text. And case text. Text is all AI generated. And it's called co. That's what it's called, co counsel. And so when you go on Westlaw, even today, you can use co counsel to help you research, to help you draft memorandums. You know, if you're researching an issue just internally, you're sending something to a client. So yeah, so AI is, is. I mean, it's not stopping and it's. It's made the legal world easier, faster, more efficient, I think. But you still have to be extremely careful that you are really checking your work that, that, you know, there's one thing to use Co counsel. There's nothing to use Chat GPT or one of the other competitors. I mean, you'd like to think that Westlaw has like vetted everything, but I am telling you, it just makes me nervous as a cat. So you have got to check your work if you are going to use any of those AIs as a lawyer. But, you know, over time, I think it'll get better.
- [41:11]
Natalie Brunel
Yeah. Don't trust Verify, obviously.
- [41:12]
Paula Penley
Absolutely.
- [41:13]
Natalie Brunel
From Bitcoin. Okay, well, anything else you, you want to share or anything that you're looking forward to, anything that you're working on that you want to let people know about.
- [41:21]
Paula Penley
About. Well, I just want to thank you so much for inviting me and having me on the, on the pod. It was so funny. When you're talking about the Twitter thing, I'll never forget we were sitting at the first conference. I don't even know if I told you the story, but we were sitting next to each other and yeah, Twitter was brand new to Me, but you were in the news world, so you knew its impact. But we'd sit there and you would quickly tweet something that someone said in a quote and blast it. And then another blast it. And then I was just like, this girl's going places. So anyway, I just. And then you get this huge following so fast, Natalie. So, like, I'm. I'm just really. I don't know. I'm really proud of you. I just, you know, adore everything you've done and the trajectory of your career and the impact and influence that you've had on this community is, you know, it's a really testament to such. Such a good person and a great work ethic, and you're a great example.
- [42:08]
Natalie Brunel
You are so kind. Thank you so much. I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. Because, you know, I was. I was sitting in the hotel room, like, editing, and poor Paul is trying to sleep, and I'm like, I gotta get this first episode out.
- [42:19]
Paula Penley
Yeah, I know. You are a hard worker.
- [42:21]
Natalie Brunel
You are the ultimate hype girl and supporter and ride or die. I'm just so grateful. So I'll put your information in case someone wants to contact you or get a hold of maybe more information about your firm. And thanks so much.
- [42:32]
Paula Penley
Sure. Absolutely. Of course.
- [42:35]
Natalie Brunel
Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Coin Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show so you don't miss any new episodes. If you can, turn on those notifications and leave us a positive review, it really helps the show grow organically with new listeners. We have a free weekly newsletter. You can sign up@thenewsblock.substack.com and remember, this show is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing should constitute as official investment advice, and you should always do your own research. I'm always open to feedback and guest suggestions, so please feel free to reach out@infooingbitcoin.com I'll see you next time.