← Collectors Gene Radio
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- [00:00]
A
How does a watch become more than a watch? The Walkers, Brad, Brian, Olivia, they've all become fabulous friends of mine over the years. Did business with them at Analog Shift, do business with them now, and they even. They set my wife's engagement ring. They made our wedding bands. Brad was at my wedding. All because I walked in one day and decided to buy a watch. And now have these fabulous friendships and memories that come from it.
- [00:33]
B
What's going on, everybody? And welcome to Collector's Gene Radio. This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the Collector's Gene. If you have the time, please subscribe and leave a review. It truly helps. Thanks a bunch for listening and please enjoy today's guest on Collector's Gene Radio. Today on Collector's Gene Radio, I welcome Vincent Prosesco, a true connoisseur whose passion for mechanical artistry has taken him from curious teenage collector to vice president and watch specialist at Sotheby's. Vincent's journey has traversed the vibrant subcultures of Wall street wristwear, the pioneering spirit of Analog Shift, the retail sophistication of watches of Switzerland, and the digital influence of Watchinista, all culminating in his current role within the world of international auctions. We explore not only the watches themselves, but the psychology of pursuit, the irresistible pull of the next bid, the truth behind phone bidding, and the nuanced dance between personal passion and professional responsibility. We'll also step inside the inner sanctum of Roliefest, the invitation only gathering of the world's most devoted vintage Rolex collectors, where trust, passion, and an unwavering commitment to excellence converge in a spectacle few are privileged to witness. So please enjoy. This is Vincent Prosesco for Collector's Dream Radio. Vincent, such an honor and a pleasure to have you on Collector's Dream Radio today.
- [02:02]
A
No, it's. The pleasure's all mine. I really appreciate you having me on cam anytime.
- [02:07]
B
And we've known each other for quite some time now. I mean, we've been talking watches with each other and cars for quite a few years at this point. But for those that are just tuning in and getting to know you for the first time, collecting and being interested in watches really started at age like 15 for you. And I'd love to know the watch or the moment or the brand that you just saw and it just took you on this path.
- [02:32]
A
The brand was always omega for me. That was the brand that everything sort of started with, probably because, like so many people, I wish I Had a great story. My grandfather wore an Omega watch. And the one that really captivated my mind and fascination at a young age was, which I also think a lot of people can relate to. You're a young kid. What do you want to be when you grow up? An astronaut? Was the Omega Speedmaster just this incredible story of this watch saving people's lives who are going to the moon? Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Ed White, all of these incredible characters from the sort of greatest hits of 20th century history. And that was really where it all began. Working at a summer camp way back with a friend of mine, Greg, who ironically also works in watches now. And just that was it. That was the bug for watches.
- [03:31]
B
What I find interesting is that you had this foresight that we all wish we had at age 15 and watches were a lot cheaper back then. How did the collecting evolve for you through high school and then college and then, you know, you get your first job on Wall Street. What was really interesting to you throughout those years and what were you buying?
- [03:50]
A
You know, I always tell people that it's an accident that I started with vintage and stuck with vintage. Certainly it resonates more with me than most modern watches. I have bought less than seven modern watches in my entire life. Sort of brand new, I'm the first owner, but it really was. They were so much cheaper when I was 15 years old, you know, you could go buy from for a couple hundred dollars, a great vintage watch, whereas a brand new one would be thousands. I remember even buying my first Rolex Submariner for $2,000. That was the cost. So I'd love to say that I had some great foresight, but really it was, I was a young kid, I was working, I didn't have 7, 8, $9,000 to go buy a brand new watch, but for $1,000 or $2,000 that you could easily save up over the course of working, you could go buy a great vintage watch at the time.
- [04:54]
B
I'd love to talk about brands like Heuer, you know, and the Carrera specifically, and the Monaco's and all those watches that when you and I were 15, were super accessible. And they've really skyrocketed in terms of pricing and popularity. Do you remember some of these prices back then of what some of these coyers and stuff were?
- [05:14]
A
So I bought my first universal Geneve pole router, which is of course now back on the map. Breitling bought ug and the pole router is of course Gerald Gento's first watch. Beautiful tuxedo Dial I bought my first one for $900. And my first vintage Heuer Carrera I bought in a Club Monaco in Flatiron because my girlfriend, now wife, was going to get her hair done. And I saw it sitting in the window and I think it was like $3,000.
- [05:50]
B
Wow.
- [05:51]
A
I mean, they were really much more accessible back then.
- [05:58]
B
So few retailers these days still continue to sell vintage items. I think of, you know, ALD and I think of Todd Snyder. You know, they sell vintage watches and vintage jewelry and goods and stuff like that, but so few brands do it these days. And I'm always curious as to why brands don't. Right. It's such a fun way for them to not only accessorize their store, but accessorize with things that are for sale. Right.
- [06:22]
A
I think that you and I, and this is right where the collector separates from the business of it. I think you and I, as collectors think of it that way. Like, oh, would be great to just have a couple of these in the store, put them in the window. It's going to look cool. People will love it. But then from the business side of things, it is so hard to make sure that you're buying the right product, it's authentic, you're getting it from the right sources. And if you're not plugged into some of these niche communities and you really know your stuff, maybe you're selling something completely unintentionally. Of course, that isn't quite right. And that's not a good look for the retailer. And I think a lot of retailers today, given the rise of some of these authenticity issues, they would just rather leave that to other places in the market. Right. Leave it to the secondary market dealers. Leave it to the auction houses where we're sort of giving that risk to somebody else so that some guy doesn't walk into Todd Snyder, for instance, six months later and say, hey, wait a second, this isn't right.
- [07:37]
B
Right. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. You know, I just. I think so many brands miss out on using watches and jewelry, especially as, like, accessories that they can use. Like you see ALD using them in their shoots. And then what you want to do when you see, you know, these lookbooks that they put through, you want to go and buy all the things that someone's wearing. And a lot of times people want to know, hey, what's that watch? Or what's that piece of jewelry? And you can't buy it, but with them you can. I just, I find it to be such a miss for a lot of brands and they could really do it right. You know, they could partner with someone that is trustworthy if they don't feel that they could do it themselves.
- [08:12]
A
It's funny you say that at Analog Shift, we were actually way back in the day, we were one of the first to kind of go into the market and do that and private label the brand and go into retailers like Marshall Pierce and Shreve Crump and Low and Longs and Watches of Switzerland and be their in house authenticator, curate the selection. But that does take a lot of time, right. And the retailer does have to be willing to, in more ways than one, make that sort of investment in carrying the product and sticking with it. And again, I think it is a missed opportunity. But some retailers would just rather stay in their lane of making clothing, making what it is that they do make. And let's also not forget they have the ability of hitting a restock button. Somebody walks in off the street saying, I want to buy a Breguet 3330. And you sell that, there's no restock button for one of those. You can't just make another one appear.
- [09:25]
B
So after college you continue collecting watches and then you go and you work on Wall street and that's your first big boy job out of college.
- [09:34]
A
Yes, it was.
- [09:35]
B
And that's such an interesting place to watch spot. I mean, what were the watches that you were seeing around the office and on Wall street during that time?
- [09:44]
A
You know, with a couple of notable exceptions in the office, it was more or less what you would expect. The lot of Rolexes, the Royal Oaks, everyone seemingly had a steel Daytona. But we did have at my old firm three or four guys who were actually into sort of interesting vintage watches. I'll never forget this one guy, John, who was one of our traders on the sell side. He would always, because he knew I liked watches, right? The watch people always find each other.
- [10:16]
B
In an office, sniff them out.
- [10:19]
A
He would come running up, he's like, oh, look, I got this Heuer Dado 12, which is the triple calendar chronograph Carrera in a panda configuration, you know, promise. He was the only one in the office with one of those, you know, and he, then he would come in and he had Zodiacs and of course he had all the, the other watches that you would expect. But there were a couple guys in the office who, who were really into it the way I was. And with my first Wall street bonus check, I did what any sensible young adult would do and I went and I spent the Entire thing on a watch, which was a watch. I still have a brand new watch. JLC Master Ultra Thin Moonphase 39 millimeter in steel.
- [11:04]
B
Great watch.
- [11:05]
A
Love that watch. Every time I put it on, I say I don't wear it enough. But I bought that from Shreve, Crump and Low in Boston on Newbury Street. And just, you know, how, how, how does a watch become more than a watch? The Walkers, Brad, Brian, Olivia, they've all become fabulous friends of mine over the years. Did business with them at Analog Shift, do business with them now, and they even. They set my wife's engagement ring, they made our wedding bands. Brad was at my wedding. All because I walked in one day and decided to buy a watch and now have these fabulous friendships and memories that come from it. The amount of people that I actually became friends with from just buying that one watch, it's almost comical.
- [11:58]
B
I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think any collector in any realm, in any market, right, not just watches, will tell you that. It's so much about the relationships and maybe less so in places like maybe art and wine, where it's a little bit more like you stay in your own lane, but where there's real communities and there's real events and these sorts of things taking place. That's when the relationships are really fortified.
- [12:23]
A
Oh, the relationships and the friendships that come from it are really everything. They're almost more rewarding in a way than owning the item itself. And I've been really lucky and fortunate enough to have met so many incredible people and have had those friendships bring me all over the world at this point to various meetings with collectors and friends all over the place. It's really a special community of people, mostly because we're all diseased in the same way. It's like the inmates are running the asylum. I love it.
- [13:02]
B
I'd love to talk again about your time on Wall street, and less specifically about Wall street itself, but more so the culture in the office. And I find that anytime I show someone who's like, hey, look at this Rolex I got, or look at this new watch I bought. And I'm like, that's really cool. I love that. But let me show you something vintage. I'd love to get your opinion how you feel about that. And I find that it's so much easier to convert a modern watch guy to something vintage because, like, it's just undeniable versus, you know, the other side of the coin. Were there guys in the office that were looking at, you know, your, your vintage watches that you were wearing that were like your Daytona and Royal Oak guys and be like, what is that? That is so cool.
- [13:44]
A
You know, I think there, there were some people who were definitely interested because there, there are watch people, right? You've got modern watch people, you've got vintage watch people, and there's some crossover. But I think some of the watches that I was really buying and wearing and collecting at the time were just a little too small. Remember, this is now like 2013, 14, 15, 16. So this is, this is peak big watch era, right? Right.
- [14:11]
B
Flavor Flav.
- [14:15]
A
Yeah. Big Panerais. The Royal Oak offshores are king. So I think, you know, me showing up to work with, as cool as it may have been, a 36 millimeter watch, you know, what are you doing wearing such a small watch, like. And I'm. I'm not a small person. I don't think they look ridiculous on me. I think 36 to 39 is usually the sweet spot for, for a watch. But I just think that while you could sell somebody on the story and the romance of it, I just think that at the time, the zeitgeist of the moment was for very big watches. And it was hard to sort of battle that, if you will.
- [14:54]
B
Right.
- [14:55]
A
We're in a very different place now, obviously, where smaller is coming back into vogue. You know, Lange just released a 34 millimeter watch, which is wild. Never thought I'd see that happen.
- [15:08]
B
It's great, though. I love that. You know, I mean, I think it shows a lot of guts from some of these retailers and watch brands that are, you know, willing to, one, sell a product like that, but two, really willing to make a product like that. We don't see it that often, and that's a real bet on the real collector market, saying, hey, we think that people are going to be excited about something that's 34 millimeters, and that's not something any brand has really done in the last X amount of years.
- [15:37]
A
100% agree. And I think for a brand like in this case Lange, it makes sense because that is really a brand where that appeals to collectors. You don't accidentally happen upon Lange watches, right? It's not, oh, I stumbled into the store by accident. I found my way here to the counter. You know, it's a very intentional brand. You know, I often joke that, you know, the most controversial statement in watches is that the best watch in the world is made in Germany, not in Switzerland. I think their watches are that good.
- [16:14]
B
Yeah, I agree. So you move on from Wall street and you kind of have this happenstance encounter that ends up landing you at Analog Shift, where you are running part of the company as CFO and coo. And then you lead that acquisition to Watches of Switzerland, which is amazing. Then you move on to Watchinista, and now you're at Sotheby's, and it's such a great trajectory, because you usually don't see that kind of trajectory from people in the watch market. They kind of stay in their lane, and that's fine, too. But you're on this upward rise, and I love it. How would. How would you say that each chapter has shaped your philosophy on collecting and the value of watches? Or has your philosophy and what you love really remain the same?
- [16:57]
A
I wish I could say that I had this great epiphany, but I've always, when it comes to the things that I collect, personally beaten to the rhythm of my own drum a little bit. And I think that the watches that I personally collect have changed slightly, but they all still rhyme. There's. There's very much a thread through everything that I own, and. And that, for me, is very much historical importance, story and beauty. Right? It's got to be beautiful. I went to school for history. That was my background. I was supposed to be a history teacher.
- [17:41]
B
In a way, you are.
- [17:43]
A
Yes. And in a way, in a way, I am. I just get to tell way more interesting stories that people really get a lot more into, which is a lot of fun for me. I. If you're ever unlucky enough to be stuck with me as your tour guide at Sotheby's, you. You'll get quite the animated tour. But what I really learned through all of my different facets of the industry, and there's really only three things you can do in watches. You can be in retail of watches, either on the primary or the secondary, work for an auction house. You can be in media journalism, you know, working at a Hodinkee or a Wachenista or a blog to watch or Worn and Wound, or you can work for a brand. Everything in watches really falls into one of those three categories, but each facet of those three things really has its own sort of distinct flavor. And what I really loved most about interacting on two of those three, because obviously I've not worked for a brand, is you get to meet the most fascinating and different people on each side. When you're working in retail. For me, whether it was at Analog Shift Watches of Switzerland or now at Sotheby's, you Get to meet the most incredible and interesting collectors from all over the world. And people talk to them about what they like and what they don't like and what they're interested in. When you're working with media, you get to spend a lot of time with the brands. A lot of times you're dealing with their brand presidents, the chief marketing officers, the PR agencies, and you're really learning a whole other side of the business. And what I think I have really taken away from that, because not many people do jump around from, from lane to lane, if you will, is I can. I have a broader picture of what the watch market is. And I think that helps me when I speak to people and they look at something like, oh, I don't understand why this brand did this. Well, let me explain to you why the brand did this, because I've heard it from the other side. I understand the actual business of watches. How you make something, how you market it. I was asked at Watches and Wonders, do you think the brands are paying attention to auction results and that the releases this year are a direct result of what we've seen at auction? And I said to them, I would love to think that's the case, but remember, watches are not created in a vacuum. Everything you're seeing at Watches and Wonders today, the production cycle of that started years ago. You don't simply just make a watch and it appears there's actually a long production cycle. There's concepting, there's R and D. Do we have to create a new movement for it? If we're not a fully vertically integrated manufacturer, who are we going to to make all of these parts? And I think that having had experience on both sides of that is something that's maybe a little bit more unique and, and definitely gives me some great perspective when I'm speaking to clients or just speaking to someone like you when we, when we chat.
- [21:19]
B
Yeah. And I think the, you know, let's say Cartier, for example, just because they're a big topic of discussion over the last X amount of years, when you think about how far in advance they have to start concepting and coming up with their plans for watches of wonder this year and the next year and the next year. Right. They really have to, like you said, be pretty well thought out in advance. But what I find really interesting is timing of the market. I mean, when they released the pebble, like there was so much content going on in the watch world about the Pebble. You know, Tenka Giche just came out. There's been so much stuff on jump hour watches in the last X amount of months before that was released, you know, and I just find those moments of timing so interesting. And so, yeah, it makes you wonder, like they are probably really paying attention to the market.
- [22:08]
A
They have to be. But it does take time. You mentioned Cartier. So this year was the tank Hagiche last year was the Tor 2. If you look at the Tor 2 chronograph, which has basically been out of production since the CPCP version that had that THC movement, which was the FP Journe, FP Journe Dennis Flageolet and Vianney Halter movement in it. That's how long it's been since they made that, that watch with a monopusher chronograph movement. The new movement is shaped to the case. It's not a standard shape watch. How long did it take them to make that? That's not, you know, that is not something that you can just pull out of thin air.
- [22:57]
B
It's not an easy feat.
- [22:59]
A
No, these things do take time. I think with Cartier is a little maybe different because they're really just going back into their archives. It's been a long time since they've actually come out with a radically new design.
- [23:14]
B
I'm also curious to know. I mean, you work for a major auction house and you're a collector first. That's where you start. That's where your passion really lies, is collecting. Do you feel you need to be reserved in your personal acquisitions, or do Sotheby's encourage collecting with their employees? Right. I know a lot of people, like, they get their first job for this conversation. You get your first job on Wall street and you're low man on the totem pole, for lack of a better term. But you want to go buy something special. Sometimes people are like, no, this shows that this is what I'm into and I can maybe relate to my colleagues. Or sometimes people feel like they have to not buy that stuff or drive a nice car because they, they don't want to give the wrong impression. Where does your collecting lie when it comes to working somewhere like Sotheby's?
- [23:58]
A
Oh, I think everybody at Sotheby's is incredibly passionate about their areas of expertise. That's why they're called specialists. So I think that it's probably easier to collect into some categories than others. For instance, we have a science and a natural history department. They sell dinosaurs. I don't know how many people in that department have the space to have a dinosaur.
- [24:28]
B
Right. Collecting teeth.
- [24:30]
A
Right. Yeah, you know, it does vary from department, but I think that everybody at Sotheby's is incredibly passionate and deeply curious about what their specific field is. I just think that, you know, obviously there's rules around bidding. Right. We were not permitted. That would be manipulation. But where I think everybody is, is deeply passionate about what field that they are in. And certainly I've seen some incredible pieces out of, you know, some of my colleagues collections across various departments. Because again, we all have that bug. There's a reason we do what we do and not everybody went on to be a lawyer or a dentist or a doctor or. Insert vocation here.
- [25:26]
B
Yeah. How is that dynamic change for you, though? Because again, you're a collector first, so you've always hunted besides analog shift and all that stuff, but you've always hunted for yourself the best of whatever the best is that you can buy for your money in the world watch that you want. But now, you know, a lot of those amazing watches come to auction, and those don't. You don't get the option to buy those. Right. Those go. Those go straight to the catalog. What's that push and pull for you?
- [25:53]
A
I wish I could say that it did have some impact on me, but, you know, the watches that come to auction through Sotheby's that I would really want for myself, regrettably, they're typically in another price bracket. For instance, we sold two years ago, Jack Swigert, the module captain of Apollo 13, his gold Omega Speedmaster. That is absolutely a watch that I would have loved to have in my personal collection. But that's a hundred. I think we sold it for US$156,000.
- [26:32]
B
Right.
- [26:33]
A
There is no danger of me purchasing that. So I think I bought. I bought a new watch this week for myself.
- [26:40]
B
Could you share?
- [26:41]
A
Sure. I bought a Breguet 3050, a very early one that was made while Daniel Roth was still at the company. So that is. I guess I should back that up a second. The Breguet 3050 is Daniel Roth's perpetual calendar, which he made and designed for Breguet, based off of a pocket watch that he had actually created when he first started working for the brand, when it was still owned by Chaumet. And it is one of the most incredibly beautiful things you've ever seen. 36 millimeters coinage case officer lugs. Incredibly thin, incredibly thin automatic, automatic perpetual calendar movement that came out before the Patek 3940. According to some people at the company, they were only making between two and three of These a year because of the complexity of producing them. So it's an incredibly beautiful, special watch. I had wanted a perpetual calendar.
- [27:56]
B
Who doesn't?
- [27:58]
A
Original smartwatch. Right. And so I worked with a dealer and purchased the watch. Incredibly happy. So I wouldn't say that just because I work at Sotheby's, I've stopped collecting at all. That couldn't be further from the truth right now.
- [28:15]
B
Is something like that watch though. Would Sotheby's be excited for you? I think people would love to just hear this, right. Is Sotheby's excited for you that you bought that watch? Or they like, hey, this is. This is like auction worthy. Like this should be in our auction, not on your wrist. Were they like generally happy that you bought it?
- [28:34]
A
We do have one in our auction. What I would say to you is I don't think that they particularly have an opinion. I think that's fair to say. Purchasing from a dealer, that's like saying, I work for Ralph Lauren, but I went and I bought a shirt at J. Crew.
- [28:53]
B
Sure.
- [28:54]
A
Makes sense, right? You know, it's. I. It was for sale from another dealer in the industry, called them up, negotiated the price, purchased the watch. It was not sort of something that was coming through the door. I think that's a very important distinction. Right, Right.
- [29:12]
B
So you also have this front row seat to the high stakes world of auctions. And I'd love to know, you know, there's so much psychology that goes behind bidding and. And in your experience, what makes a collector give one more bid when they're in the room?
- [29:29]
A
Oh, there's so many different reasons. Usually it's because they've already formed some form of bond to it. Now why might they have formed that bond if you are? Because we've already established. Right. The kinds of things that come to auction. It's been missing from your collection. You've hunted for years. Here it is right in front of you. It may take another 10 years for you to find another example that's worth one more bid. Or this is a fresh to market example of something it's never been seen before. It's spent 60 years with the original family. It's just so much better than everything that a collector's been looking at previously. That's worth one more bid. Maybe it is a celebratory moment. They're celebrating a milestone or a event in their life, either familial or career oriented, and that's worth one more bid. There's so many reasons as to why somebody will go one More bid. What I will say is that typically where working with, you know, very seasoned auction buyers, they generally have a number in their head where they want to be, and, you know, they'll have the discipline to sort of stick to that number.
- [30:59]
B
Yeah, makes sense. And I think the other interesting thing is, you know, as an auction house, your job is to, you know, from an umbrella standpoint, find really exceptional lots and promote each lot in hopes to get the largest result that you can for the consigner. And there's obviously so much more that goes into it and so much, so many more important things that you do. But I think as a general statement, that's kind of what the auction house does. And some of the biggest budget bidders are brands themselves buying things back for their archives. Museums, perhaps personally. And it arguably wipes out a lot of the competition in the room because their budgets are just that much bigger. And I would assume from a professional standpoint, you know, that doesn't necessarily matter as much to you because that's not what your job is and not what you're supposed to care about. But on the contrary, as a collector, how do you feel about that?
- [31:52]
A
You know, I've never really thought about it, if I'm being honest with you. I think that when a brand does decide to buy something for their archives, I think that's, I'm going to say, a great thing. You know, it's great in almost every way. It's great because one, it shows everybody that they care, they care about their heritage. Two, it usually means that we're going to see that watch appear again in the future, whether it's at a traveling exhibition or museum show or a reissue. A reissue. These are all great, positive things. Whereas a great watch or a great work of art or a great car or any item comes up for sale once it leaves our galleries, you never know where it's going to end up. You may never see it again. You may not see it again for 40 years. Who knows how long someone's going to keep something in their collection? So. So I don't see the downside in brands participating in auction. I think it's a great thing all around. And it also has a halo effect. It has a halo effect for the brand, which I think also, of course, helps the industry and the community at large. Because when you see these headlines in media and in the news about, oh, this amazing watch soldiers for X number of dollars, it gets people talking, it brings people to the table. And whatever brings people to the table is great for Everyone. Because we do want to see as many people get interested in these beautiful, mechanical, obsolete pieces of technology, because ultimately that's what's going to save them, right? And that's what saved them in the 70s, and that's what's going to keep them being relevant. How do we keep it in the conversation? And I think all of that, it's all interconnected.
- [33:59]
B
Something I always find interesting is when you're watching an auction and something gets up into the six or seven figure range and it's a battle between two people, you can clearly see that there's two people bidding against each other. And then it's like the increments are going by maybe 10, 20, 30, 40, 50,000, whatever it is. But the bidder who just bid a million dollars, for example, then it goes up to 1.1 and the other bidder backs out. And I'm always so interested to know someone who is willing to spend a million dollars on it. Right. It's kind of funny money at that point when you're spending six to seven figures on something. But I'm always so interested to know why they backed out when it just made a small increment based on what they were bidding before. Are they just over it? Are they just like, I don't care at this point, I'm done?
- [34:47]
A
Well, it's hard to know, right? And again, there's so many factors that go into it. I think at that point, it's what I said before, right? You're dealing with experienced people. They know where they want to be, they have a number in their head, and that's the line in the sand. Right. But remember, it's also, you're doing the math in your head in the moment. Okay? The hammer price is X plus the buyer's premium, plus where am I shipping it? So, okay, I live in New York. That's 8.875% sales tax. So you're doing all of this math, and maybe when you add it all up, that extra hundred, so to speak, really turns into an extra 200. Or what if you're bidding overseas and you have to do currency conversion and the dollar is weaker in some places than it is in other places. These are all factors that go into it. And I certainly would not be the person to ever trivialize a bid of a million versus 1.1 million. But I think these are all things that go through the psychology of bidding. Right?
- [35:56]
B
Certainly. Another thing I'm so interested in are the phone bidders, because you obviously can't hear the conversations for obvious reasons. But you see the phone bidding, you know, associates talking to the phone bidders, and they have their mouth over there and it's just like, I'm like, what are the converse, what are the conversations that are being had? You know, can you. Obviously, without divulging too much, but what are the typical conversations going through between the collector and, and the phone personnel?
- [36:25]
A
No, no great state secrets. I, I promise you. It's, it's really because, again, you know, the lots, they, they usually go by so quickly. So it's really usually as simple as once you get somebody on the phone, you'll call them a few lots before, right? If you want to bid on lot number 10, usually call you at lot number eight. Of course, always the pleasantries. But when you're, when you're phone bidding, there's really no time for smalltalk. It's really as simple and straightforward when you're dealing with people on the phone as the bid is $100, the next bid is $110. Do you want to bid $110? Maybe you're saying to them, the bid is not with you, the bid is with a gentleman in the room, or something of that. But there's really no time for small talk, right? You don't want to miss. You've seen how fast an auction moves. You have to be very to the point, clear, communicative when you're on the phone with somebody.
- [37:36]
B
How about some of these higher stake lots, though? When it's clearly between two people in the room, like we were talking about before, the auctioneer seems to kind of take a pause and let things go a little bit slower. When it gets up there in price and it's two people going back and forth, there's longer conversations that are being had. Is the phone bidder trying to be coached through the next bid, or are they asking questions like, is this really worth it for me? What are those conversations like? Because it's less of a time thing at that point. It's like, hey, we're taking our time here. We're in the 3 million range.
- [38:11]
A
Again, I think it's really as simple as the auctioneer begins to move slower at that pace, just because if the next increment is a $50,000 or a $100,000 incremental, it's as simple as sometimes the person on the other end of the phone really just needs to sit there and do the math out.
- [38:31]
B
Certainly makes sense. Do you see that? Obviously you guys have data that you track on bidders and all that stuff, or are the people that are bidding in the watch auctions also actively bidding in other categories like cars and art and design and rare furniture?
- [38:47]
A
I think without sort of getting too into the weeds on it, people do collect cross category. It's. It's absolutely something that we see across the board. I don't think it's unique to us at Sotheby's even. Just think about normal people like both of us, right? We collect across different categories, we buy different things. So we absolutely do have plenty of clients who buy jewelry but also buy watches. They maybe buy bid on cars. What I think is an amazing statistic, because you want to speak about data, is how almost a third of the watch bidders are under the age of 40.
- [39:33]
B
Very interesting.
- [39:34]
A
Which again goes back to my comment about how we want as many people at that table as possible, because what's good for one is good for all. And having all of these younger people coming into watches, I think is an amazing thing. And also sort of indicative of the fact that after that big run up in watches during the pandemic where prices really got out of hand and I think a lot of people were kind of saying, oh, you know, everything's so expensive. There is this sense of fun is back. People want to come back into the fold. There are things to be had at more reasonable prices. Again, not everything is $100,000. So I think that is a really amazing statistic to talk about.
- [40:26]
B
I think something in the watch world that is what most people call a big no, no is buying something at retail and then selling it something that you have waited on the list for, that other people are on the list for. That's really hard to get, whatever it may be. And, and it's a hit or miss conversation with how people feel about it. And as an auction house, it's not really your job to care about it at all. But you obviously sold and helped sell a really, really well known and popular grandmaster Chime Patek Philippe. And it's came from a very well known person and it's out there online if anyone wants to read about it. What was going on through his mind when he was doing this? Does. Does Patak even care that he sold it? Like, does that ruin the relationship? Does he not care?
- [41:15]
A
So obviously you're talking about Sylvester Stallone. And I think that we did an incredible video with Sly where he really spoke about and by the way, genuinely recommend watching it. It's one of them.
- [41:32]
B
I did.
- [41:32]
A
It's great.
- [41:33]
B
Great. I loved. I've watched it like 17 times.
- [41:35]
A
Oh, my God, he's fantastic. It was also just one of the most heartfelt interviews, for lack of a better. It was one of the most heartfelt interviews I've ever seen. You know, he really speaks about his love of watches, his collecting of watches, how he got into it, you know, the Altman Brothers and. And the whole thing from. From Soup to Nuts. But I think in that case, it was really. He was very clear about why it was time for him to sell that watch. He wanted to own what he thought was his words, not mine, the finest watch in the world. And he owned it for several years, and obviously he never really wore it. It was just sort of sitting there. He liked to take it out, to admire it, to look at it, and then put it back in its box. And I think he was very clear about, I've wanted to own it. I summited Everest, if you will. I got to own it and enjoy it for several years, and now it's time for me to pass that on to someone else. And he actually told a really great story, which was about. Was from Flip Wilson, I think was the comedian's name, where he talks about how he was admiring a necklace that Flip Wilson was wearing, and Flip took it off his neck and gave it to Sly and basically said, I've enjoyed this. I've had my time with it. Now it's time for you to go have some enjoyment with it. And that was really the thought process that Sly had. I wanted the best. I got to have the best. I enjoyed owning it. Now it's time for somebody else.
- [43:24]
B
I love it, and I think it's a great thing. You know, when. When you see collections kind of come and go and ebb and flow in people's, you know, you know what they're into. And sometimes one or two go out to bring one in. We've all been there.
- [43:38]
A
Very few watches, I think, are forever correct.
- [43:42]
B
And that's why I was curious to know. I mean, do you view yourself as more of a temporary steward of the watches that you buy, or do you feel more like a permanent owner of the pieces in your collection until they get passed on?
- [43:54]
A
I think it depends on the watch. Typically, if I'm going and buying something new, I'm making a conscious effort that I'm going to keep that watch forever. That JLC still have that watch, that Master Ultra Thin. I have a modern ceramic Pepsi GMT on Jubilee. That watch I bought new, I'm going to keep that forever. That one actually has a really Great engraving. So it's a very personal watch to me. I think that the other watches that I own really love owning them, and I enjoy them, but every now and then, yes, they do leave the collection. You know, I got married, bought a house. Unfortunately, that costs some watches. Right. You know, we have that with that line in cars, right? You. You sleep in a car. You can't drive a house. Unfortunately, we don't have something that witty for watches. So time to buy a house. Okay. Some of. Some of the watches have to go away, but I think if I'm buying a watch new, if I'm making that conscious effort, it's like opening up the first blank page of a book, and I am deciding that I am going to intentionally start writing a new story. Whereas with other watches, certainly some of my more historical pieces, I really am just the steward. I'm hanging on to it. I'm protecting it and preserving it until such time as someone comes along who will appreciate it as much as I will, or an event happens. And unfortunately, maybe a watch needs to go away. We're not saving lives here. Right?
- [45:53]
B
Right. Exactly. I love it. Let's talk about the tangential part of your job and arguably one of the most fun parts of your job, which has not much to do with Sotheby's, but everything to do with watches. And that's Roliefest. And you've helped your colleague at Sotheby's, Jeff, Jeff Hess, who started Roliefest with this event over the last few years. And it's really become almost mythic in the vintage Rolex world. How would you describe the atmosphere of that event to someone who has never attended?
- [46:21]
A
I would say it's really just like one big family reunion. If that might sound a little corny, but it's really the truth. It's a great group of people from all over the world. Almost everybody in the room knows each other, and it's a great excuse to get all of those people together, all these great collectors, in one place so that we can share our love of watches with each other. But it's really about the community. And I know this keeps coming up, right? It's the relationships, the friendships, but that's really what it's all about, bringing all of these incredible collectors and friends from all over the world together in one place. Because we may speak to these people all the time in WhatsApp groups or Instagram chats or group texts or email, but how often do you really get to see them in person and actually play with watches, right?
- [47:27]
B
Certainly.
- [47:28]
A
And I think that's what it is. It feels like a big family reunion.
- [47:32]
B
I love it. It's such a great event. Everybody's excited for the next one that that's going to be fortunate enough to attend and can't wait to see the plans for that. I mean, we see less exclusive but similar events in other collector markets. Right. Like Lift a Cult and. And all that sort of stuff. But. But it's not as exclusive. Right. Like someone just buys a ticket and they go. Do you think something like Roliefest could be replicated in other collector markets on this exclusive of a level? Or do you think that camaraderie just doesn't exist as much?
- [48:03]
A
I think it does exist in other collecting communities and I think those events do happen out there. I think that Watches is a little different because there is, of course, a security concern with Watches. Nobody at Luft Caholt, it would be very hard for you to sneak off with someone's 930 Turbo or someone tried to drive away, you know, in McQueen's 917. You would be noticed.
- [48:31]
B
Yeah. Just don't gone in 60 seconds isn't going to give you the answer on how to do that.
- [48:36]
A
Exactly. Nobody. Nobody watched that movie. Right. But I think those events do happen out there. I'm lucky enough to. To be a part of several great car collecting communities. We get together, you know, maybe groups of 30 to 50 of us every, let's call it, couple of weeks, go for a great drive, have a nice lunch somewhere again, just sort of sharing the love of that shared experience, that bonding moment through the ups and downs of owning these sort of temperamental things. I think art does have these events. Right. You know, they have frieze and they have Art Basel and all of these incredible things around the world that are just for art collectors. I think in a way, Watches was kind of the last one to the party.
- [49:35]
B
Right?
- [49:35]
A
Right. You know, think about, you've got Pebble Beach, Concord d' Elegance has been going on since late 30s, early 40s. Is that. Is that right?
- [49:47]
B
But I think the thing with those sorts of events like, you know, pebble beach and Art Basel and stuff, is that a lot of the events that happen within that, you know, big week, people can buy tickets to anyone off the street can go and attend some sort of event. Rolle Fest is really exclusive. And not that it's trying to not let people in for any sort of reason, but it is really exclusive. And I think because there's millions and millions of dollars of watches that Just sit on the tables throughout the day and the weekend. And it has to be that way. And that's why I just don't know if it could really be replicated with that sort of enthusiasm. Maybe with cars, of course, but, like, in other markets, like art and wine, where it's just like, people are gushing over, you know, what's sitting on the table and trying stuff on and deals are happening and it's fun and, you know, it's just such an interesting weekend, for sure.
- [50:39]
A
I think. And I'm going to stick with this one. I think watches is late to the table. I think those things do exist. We maybe just don't know about them.
- [50:48]
B
We're just not getting invited. Do you mean?
- [50:50]
A
I mean, I hate to say it, but yes. You know, we're probably just not getting invited. I mean, there's certainly tons of secret societies for wine all over the world.
- [50:59]
B
Sure.
- [51:00]
A
By the way, not so easy to just go get a ticket to the Quail. Right? Of course. You know, and some of the best car events in the world are really exclusive. Try, you know, getting a car into the Mille Million. Not so easy getting a car into the Colorado Grand. There's tight parameters for what qualifies for these events. I think that, again, it's just that maybe they're already out there and we just don't know about them. Which, honestly, it's not a bad thing. There should be some discovery still left there in the world.
- [51:39]
B
I completely agree. All right, before we wrap it up with the collector's dream rundown, I'd love to know if you weren't working in the watches department at Sotheby's and cars are excluded, because that's going to be a conversation for you and I for another day. Where would you want to be at within Sotheby's? What department?
- [51:56]
A
Oh, God, we've got a department for everything. And there's so many great departments. I'm going to say our science and pop culture team, they do some amazing stuff. They get to do the movie sales, and they get to do the dinosaurs. And everyone secretly wants to be Indiana Jones, right?
- [52:15]
B
Yes.
- [52:16]
A
I love it. I'm gonna go science and pop culture. Alex for 5,000.
- [52:22]
B
That's great. All right, you know the drill here. You can answer these questions based on any of the things that you collect, whether it's watches, cars, anything that comes to mind. Have fun with it. The question number one is, what's the one that got away?
- [52:35]
A
I think if I'm being honest, I'm genuinely Happy with my collection and the things that I've had an opportunity to own at some point over, you know, let's call it my collecting arc. I think anything that got away from me was really just. It's one of those things where you're looking at it and you're like, ah, if only I had a spare million dollars. Right, right.
- [53:01]
B
Totally makes sense. The next one is. Is what's the on deck circle? So what's next for you in collecting? Maybe something that you're hunting after, something you want to put into the ether so that it comes your way.
- [53:12]
A
Well, I did just get that perpetual calendar, the 3050, so can't. That. That one's now off the table. I think that in watches, what I would really love to own and has sort of been my white whale that's eluded me is a great 2915 Speedmaster. First generation Speedy. Could be a dash one, could be a dash two. Really want one of those? And for cars, you know, the thing that I was actually speaking with a good friend of mine, Matt Ivanhoe, about not that long ago was something 50s. Something 50s racy. Mostly in a bid to get on the Colorado grand, if I'm being honest. So there you have it. Look at that. And there's my. I would like to do the Colorado grand, which I think probably everyone who's ever done it says, one of the greatest car events in the world. Those are the things that are on my loose horizon. Right. I would love a 2915 Speedmaster, arguably the most important chronograph ever made, and then something 50s racy in the car world. That's Colorado grand eligible. Bonus points if it's Mille Miglia eligible.
- [54:33]
B
How about the unobtainable? So this is something that's just too expensive in a museum. Private collection, just complete unobtainium.
- [54:40]
A
I think for me, the big one, and it's in Omega's archives. Wally Shearer's 2998, which was the first Speedmaster that was worn into outer space. Likely the reason, a little hard to prove, but likely the reason that the Speedmaster was ultimately selected for NASA flight qualification. I think that is probably the watch that I would love to own. Money, no object. Of course, it's probably never coming up for sale. I don't think Omega's ever going to let go of it, and I don't blame it.
- [55:20]
B
At least they shouldn't.
- [55:21]
A
No, they shouldn't.
- [55:22]
B
Not unless it's going to save the company or something one day, but they shouldn't.
- [55:25]
A
It's a real treasure. 1962, is it Mercury? The Mercury 8. Mercury Atlas 8. First Speedmaster worn into outer space. Also, Wally Shearer, incredibly important guy, went on to news anchoring with Walter Cronkite. So that would be sort of in a museum. Not going to get my hands on it. But wow, what a thing. What a trophy.
- [55:54]
B
And the page one rewrite. So if money was no object and you could collect anything besides cars and watches, what would it be?
- [56:01]
A
That's the problem. I collect too many weird things. I really love decorative arts, which is going to be your furniture. Sort of the everyday objects that we live with, right? I love all of that stuff. I also love weird little artifacts that very much represent their moment in time. But maybe things that have absolutely no use for now. Something like when you see the sheet, the bed warmers, right. With the copper pots on the long stick. What an incredibly cool thing. Walking around today, I saw an old harpoon gun and I'm like, that's amazing. Oh my God, I never knew I wanted a harpoon gun before. But you know, I love all of these artifacts that represent these incredible moments in time that have come and gone. So, you know, decorative arts for me is that category all encompassing that really celebrates human achievement in a way. Right. How far man has come, certainly I couldn't agree more.
- [57:05]
B
It's such a, such an interesting place to collect and it's, and it's so, it lends itself to be so forgiving because there's so much. And a lot of it really works together. I mean, you know, Asian antiques works great with French Art deco and, and you know, you can really go so many different directions and, and create something really special.
- [57:24]
A
No, French Art deco is the best. Yeah, no, French Art deco is. That's the problem with art deco. I love art decos. I feel like kind of like mid century modern, you have to really commit to it. You have to do the whole room in that one style. You have to do the house in that style. Nobody walks into a British manor house and oh, all of a sudden there's a mid century modern room. It doesn't work right.
- [57:51]
B
But I think where it gets really interesting is that, you know, like some of the French mid century pieces or the Danish and Swedish mid century pieces work so well equally with French Italian antiques. Right. So like there are really special period pieces that were made by great designers who understood how to make sure that what they were creating was going to work with a lot of different things. Whereas mid century modern is like, that's really tough to get into any other style home.
- [58:23]
A
Have you made it to the TWA hotel yet?
- [58:27]
B
I have. I have been to it, but I have not stayed there. But I've. I've walked through photos, all that. It's crazy. Okay.
- [58:34]
A
I was going to say that. That, that feels like something you should see. Did you go in the airplane?
- [58:38]
B
I did not.
- [58:39]
A
Ah, see, you're missing out.
- [58:41]
B
That's got to go back.
- [58:43]
A
You have to go back just to go get a drink in the airplane.
- [58:46]
B
I kind of wanted to do the pool on the tarmac.
- [58:51]
A
I wonder if people can see the people in the pool as they're flying by.
- [58:55]
B
That would be interesting.
- [58:57]
A
But that, I mean, that's just a space that it just works in.
- [59:02]
B
Yeah. And it was. And it was meant for that, so it makes sense. How about the goat for you? Who do you look up to in the collecting world or who do you think is a great collector?
- [59:11]
A
Oh, there's so many. I'm gonna pick a car guy. But what I'm about to say about him really applies to everything and also gives you an idea as to the types of people that I admire. And it's Jay Leno. I love Jay Leno as a collector. Not because of how valuable his collection is, although of course it's plenty valuable, but because he just sort of collects with abandon. He's got steam powered cars next to, you know, modern hybrid hypercars, next to vintage Lamborghinis and Bugatti Type 35s.
- [59:55]
B
I mean, I can attest to this. I was actually at his garage maybe a month or so ago. And the breadth of cars in there and the way that they all tell the story, it's just wild. I mean, I've truly never seen anything like it.
- [60:12]
A
And for me, again, I feel like I've sounded like such a corny person over the course of this. But I always say to people I'm a terrible collector because I really just buy what I love. And so many times I find that I am buying things that maybe aren't the most valuable or there's perfection and the imperfections. You know, I have probably one of the rarest Omegas ever made. And I promise you, nobody cares about it. It is a 1950s Omega Seamaster with a golf ball dial. And I love that watch. I'll tell you very quick anecdote about the story of how I came by this watch. There's maybe six of them. I don't know if they were ever actually produced. All the dials are seemingly different. It's Possible that they were prototypes, Certainly. I know Omega has one in their museums, and they've confirmed that it is, in fact, real and legitimate. But it's one of the most beautiful watches you've ever seen in your life. And a good friend of mine who I have been sort of helping since he was actually 16 years old with his business and just being, I guess, a friend and a mentor to him, he had asked me many years ago when he was at my apartment before the pandemic, what is your watch? What's the great watch that you could never get? And I said I was telling him about this Omega Seamaster with the golf ball dial. I pulled out my books because, of course, we all have a million books, showed pictures of it, was telling him the story of how these dials came to be and how different and unique they are. And I said, you know, it's not incredibly valuable. Maybe one is worth $5,000. And I'm not trivializing $5,000, but I think both of us can attest that in the world of watches, a $5,000 watch, you're not making it. On the spectrum of, oh, my goodness, that's crazy. But I could never find one. They're impossible. They just don't exist. And for my wedding, when I was getting married, he pulled me to the side and he said to me, I thought really hard about what I was going to get you. And before he could even say anything, I looked at him dead in the eye, and I'm like, holy crap, you found the watch, didn't you? And there's so few of them. I knew exactly as soon as I saw the dial, who he bought it from, because I knew the watch, and I absolutely lost it. It's one of the most incredible. But again, this is an example of, like, I love that watch. It's one of my favorite watches. I'm never going to sell it. It's incredible. Everything about it is amazing. But, you know, if I showed that to someone else, they may not have that same emotional attachment. Now, granted, I love Omega. It's a very special brand to me for a myriad of different reasons. I guess what it comes down to is there's this great expression, all valuable things are rare, but not all rare things are valuable. And because I buy what I love, I look up to someone like Jay Leno. The man just buys what he loves. And it's just been. He's been lucky that so much of his collection has turned out to be valuable. But when you go through it, you know, a lot of Them are not, you know, crazy valuable. But he bought them anyway because he loved them. And that is why I think he is, you know, a collector I look up to because that's. That's what I aspire to be. I want to buy what I love and I want to be happy with it. And every time I look down at my wrist, I just want to smile. You know, even the fact that I bought a black 63 Corvette convertible, I promise you, I am one of the. I'm definitely the youngest person with one of those in where we live. But everybody, when I told them in our town that was one of the cars I was going to go buy, they all looked at me funny and they're like, what? But it's beautiful. It's incredible. Everything about it's amazing.
- [64:25]
B
And you love it.
- [64:26]
A
I love it. I buy what I love. That maybe doesn't make me a great collector, but those are the types of collectors I look up to. And I think Jay Leno is like the shining example, the North Star, of just buy what you love.
- [64:38]
B
The hunt or the ownership? Which one do you enjoy more?
- [64:42]
A
I would like to invoke my Fifth Amendment right. I think both. Right?
- [64:48]
B
Yep.
- [64:49]
A
Sometimes it's the journey which makes ownership more special. Because now here I am sitting here telling you these stories of how I got that Omega Seamaster with the golf ball dial, or that Master Ultra thin, or my GMT has this great engraving on the case back with this globe and all of the cities that that watch has been to. That's very special to me. So sometimes it's 50, 50. The journey is really special and important. Important. But the ownership experience is also. And I think that comes from buying what you love. Jeff Hess actually has this great expression that he says with decent regularity to people, you want to own the watch, the watch shouldn't own you. And I think that is when you're not enjoying the ownership experience, it's usually because the watch owns you, not the other way around.
- [65:51]
B
I love that. Great saying. And most importantly, do you feel that you were born with collector's gene?
- [65:57]
A
100%.
- [65:58]
B
Yeah. I had no doubt either.
- [66:01]
A
We're deeply sick individuals. We all need help. Fortunately, we all have understanding spouses. I look forward to everyone. Hopefully the highest praise I can get is that one day after I'm gone, it's going to be a great garage sale or something. Right?
- [66:18]
B
Right.
- [66:19]
A
And people are going to look through this stuff and say, wow, this guy had no. I think. I think it's definitely something you're born with you can, you can develop it later. But I think a lot of us, you're, it's sort of stuck on you from day one.
- [66:37]
B
100%. Vincent, thanks so much for coming on Collector's Dream Radio. I greatly appreciate it. And we're going to do this again for sure because, you know, we have a lot of things to talk about besides watches.
- [66:46]
A
I feel like we barely scratched the surface. We, you know, it's been an hour and 14 minutes already.
- [66:52]
B
It has. And we have a lot more to say. So there's, there's definitely room to do this again and can't wait to catch up with you next time I'm in New York.
- [66:58]
A
All right. I'm looking forward to it. I'll hold you to it.
- [67:00]
B
You got it, buddy. Take care.
- [67:02]
A
Bye.
- [67:05]
B
All right, that does it for this episode. Thank you all for listening to Collector's Gene Radio.