Podcast Summary: "Bringing Compassion to Life with Chairwork"

Compassion in a T-Shirt with Dr Stan Steindl
Guest: Dr. James Hackley
Release Date: February 7, 2025

Overview

This episode explores how "compassion focused chair work" brings the science and practice of compassion into the therapy room in an embodied, experiential way. Dr. Stan Steindl is joined by Dr. James Hackley, whose research investigates how chair work can help people—especially those struggling with self-criticism and depression—connect to a sense of care, both from others and for themselves. They discuss the background of Compassion Focused Therapy (CFT), the theoretical underpinnings and practical applications of chair work, how this approach helps navigate fears, blocks, and resistances to self-compassion, as well as its surprises, challenges, and enduring impact on clients.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Compassion Focused Therapy (CFT)? (02:05–09:59)

• CFT as a Psychological Model:

  • Integrates evolutionary theory, attachment theory, neuroscience, and social mentality theory.
  • Aims to "normalize what goes on in the mind as being part of the mind of what we've inherited from the past, of what we haven't chosen" (B, 02:50).

• Social Mentality Theory:

  • Humans have evolved relational ‘roles’—caring, seeking care, competing for rank—each dependent on social signals.
  • In CFT, it's crucial to identify which "social mentality" (care or rank-based) is dominant in a client, since some approaches (like cognitive challenging) can feel threatening in a rank-based mindset.
    • “If people are in a rank-based mindset and you try to do cognitive challenging, they're going to experience that as a threat rather than as something that's soothing." (B, 06:31)

• Three Emotion Systems Heuristic:

  • Threat/Defense (vigilance, anxiety, self-criticism)
  • Drive (motivation, excitement)
  • Soothe (calm, safeness, letting your guard down)
    • "A term that seems to resonate with clients…is being able to let your guard down." (B, 05:39)
  • Focus is on balancing these systems and bolstering the soothe system for regulation.

• The “Tricky Brain” Concept:

  • Humans can get caught in loops—new brain (imagination) activating old brain (emotion), perpetuating stress.
  • CFT aims to de-shame these processes and “step into care-based mindsets.”

2. Origins and Essence of Chair Work (11:34–18:45)

• What is Chair Work?

  • Involves using chairs and movement to create dialogues between different parts of the self (e.g., critic vs. compassionate self), or to engage with significant others.
  • Based on the idea of the “society of mind”—we have sub-personalities or parts.
  • "You might put the critic on the chair… and then you can see how [clients] react. Usually they have, goodness me, I’m being really mean to myself.” (B, 12:40)

• Historical Roots:

  • Jacob Moreno: Surplus reality and bridging inner/outer worlds.
  • Fritz Perls (Gestalt): “It’s not enough to talk about our experiences, we have to psychologically return to them.”

• Integration with CFT:

  • "A match of theory and practice” (citing Tobin Bell).
  • CFT views the mind as comprising parts in conflict (e.g., ‘getting along’ vs. ‘getting ahead’), and chair work disentangles and fosters dialogue between these parts.
  • Unique to CFT: building the “compassionate chair,” where the client embodies compassionate attributes and directs compassion to other parts of the self.

3. The Compassionate Other Chair Work Exercise (18:45–25:00)

• Blending Imagery and Embodiment:

  • Traditionally, clients might use imagery to imagine a “perfect nurturer” or compassionate other.
  • Chair work invites clients to physically move and embody this compassionate figure, making the experience more concrete and accessible—especially helpful for those who struggle with imagery.
    • Example: A client picked ‘Mrs. Doubtfire’ as their compassionate other, then embodied her in the chair. (B, 20:32)

• Eight-Step Process (per Table 2 in the paper):

  • Identify a problem.
  • Develop a sense or image of the compassionate other.
  • Imagine them in the chair.
  • Change chairs to embody the compassionate other.
  • Offer compassion to the self in another chair.
  • Swap back to feel receiving that compassion.
  • Move between chairs to explore the flow.
  • Reflect on the giving and receiving experiences.
  • "We're trying to tap into all three flows of compassion in one exercise." (B, 25:00)

• Three Flows of Compassion:

  • Self-to-Other, Other-to-Self, and Self-to-Self.
    • “People have different problems with different flows.…they're correlated, but not perfectly, which means there's different processes involved." (B, 22:36)

4. Chair Work as Assessment and Intervention (25:00–28:12)

• Assessment Tool:
  • Therapists learn a lot by observing which flows are blocked, what fears or resistances arise, and the differences in how clients give and receive compassion.
  • "It’s yielded a lot of information for formulation.” (B, 25:00)
• Therapeutic Power:
  • Clients often find wisdom and intuitive answers by embodying the compassionate other:
    • “They know what they need…they have the answers within them, but it's difficult to see it… What chair work allows people to do is to move beyond their perspective.” (B, 26:27)
  • The experience is participatory and often leads to self-discovery rather than therapist-imposed solutions.

5. Care That Feels Real – Memorable Moments and Participant Reflections (28:12–35:19)

• Authenticity and Surprise:

  • A key research finding: participants were surprised by how "real" the care felt, both in giving and receiving.
    • “They spoke about…a warm presence…they felt like they were in dialogue and that they were receiving new communication.” (B, 29:33)

• Notable Quote:

  • “I got a bit emotional at one point, which I felt a bit stupid for because I’m not actually this person I’ve chosen…” (Participant, cited by A, 32:05)

• Fears, Blocks, and Resistances (FBRs):

  • Clients often feel self-conscious, silly, or find it hard to give/receive care—these are crucial indicators, not obstacles to avoid.
    • “When we asked to do this, people found it really tricky to give care to themselves… we want to identify FBRs…so when this stuff showed up, it was important stuff and it’s something to be explored.” (B, 34:11)
  • Some of this is about social rank, shame, or previous difficulties with play or imagination.

6. How to Introduce and Facilitate Chair Work (36:15–41:01)

• Practical Approaches:

  • Tailor the introduction—may be spontaneous or premeditated, depending on client and rapport.
    • “I might just say, do you mind if we just swap chairs for a minute? And actually, part of the power… is not saying anything, not giving any instruction.” (B, 36:43)

• Normalize the Weirdness:

  • Pre-empt embarrassment; therapist can model playfulness and self-acceptance.
  • “If you form that good relationship… the therapy environment becomes a safe place.” (B, 39:33)

• Therapist Confidence:

  • Even brief training was found sufficient for therapists to use chair work effectively, and confidence is contagious.

7. The Therapeutic Meaning and Lasting Impact (41:01–44:34)

• Experiential Impact:

  • It's often the most memorable part of therapy; it “sticks.”
  • “Clients enjoy doing it… chair work was… an easily triggered memory after the event.” (B, 43:34)

• Assessment and Transformation:

  • Elicits and makes visible blocks, opens avenues for further work, and models new responses.

• Sadness & Sympathy:

  • Feeling sympathy for oneself is a sign of turning toward suffering—“the first psychology involved in compassion.”
    • "If clients can feel this sense of sympathy…they’re turning towards the distress." (B, 46:30)
  • Grief (“frozen grief”) and even rage can emerge; these are signals of therapeutic progress.

8. Working with Core Emotions and Memories (49:15–52:39)

• Dealing with Rage and Grief:

  • Sometimes chair work expands into powerful work with childhood parts, unprocessed loss, anger towards neglectful/disapproving figures.
    • “When they do that exercise…you see them become that child again… So then modeling this sort of healthy aggression… can be really transformative.” (B, 50:08)

• Modeling Courage and Commitment:

  • Facing past pain requires courage, and chair work lets clients experience new, more compassionate responses experientially.

9. Key Takeaways and Closing Reflections (52:39–57:51)

• Training and Accessibility:
  • Therapists can learn the essentials quickly and successfully apply chair work—“it didn’t take long to train therapists to do this very competently.” (B, 52:51)
• Avoiding Cartesian Splits:
  • Embodiment matters; “the mind and body are one, it is one system.”
• Checking for Imagery Difficulties:
  • Not all clients can visualize; chair work offers an invaluable alternative.
• Surprising and Enduring Benefits:
  • The experiential bang-for-buck is high, even if the “exercise doesn’t work” in conventional terms—everything that comes up is meaningful and informs therapy.

Notable Closing Quote:
“You create the safe haven and from there we can head off into different techniques.” (B, 40:14)

10. Looking Forward

• Dr. Hackley is finishing a review on shame memories and continuing to develop and use chair work in practice. He encourages more CFT therapists to experiment with chair work, emphasizing both its accessibility and profound impact.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “It really normalizes a lot of what goes on in the mind as being part of the mind of what we've inherited from the past, of what we haven't chosen.”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 02:50

• “If people are in a rank-based mindset and you try to do cognitive challenging, they're going to experience that as a threat rather than as something that's soothing.”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 06:31

• “It was really powerful. And this is what clients spoke about...when they went and became that compassionate other, they noticed this shift, this internal shift.”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 28:12

• “They know what they need…once you get them moving into a different mindset...they have the answers within them.”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 26:27

• “If clients can feel this sense of sympathy, then actually what it's telling me is that they're turning towards the suffering rather than turning away...”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 46:30

• "If you learn some of the basic principles and maybe have a step-by-step guide to begin with…as a therapist you can do it confidently."
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 37:38

• “Chair work was…an easily triggered memory after the event.”
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 43:34

• "You create the safe haven and from there we can head off into different techniques."
  – Dr. James Hackley (B), 40:14

Recommended Segments (Timestamps)

• CFT Origins and Social Mentality Theory: 02:05–09:59
• What is Chair Work and How does it Fit? 11:34–18:45
• Step-by-step Chair Work Exercise Discussion: 18:45–25:00
• Client Experiences – Care that Feels Real: 28:12–32:42
• Introducing Chair Work in Practice: 36:15–41:01
• Big Picture Reflections and Training: 52:39–57:13

Closing Tone

The conversation is warm, deeply practical, and rooted in the therapeutic realities clinicians face. Both Dr. Steindl and Dr. Hackley communicate with humility, humor, and optimism, encouraging therapists to experiment with chair work and reassuring listeners that discomfort, surprises, and even “failed” exercises are all meaningful and welcome in the journey towards compassion.

For further details, listeners are encouraged to read Dr. Hackley’s open access paper (linked in the podcast description).