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- [00:01]
A
Chatgpt welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [00:06]
B
Thank you, Stan. It's great to be here on Compassion in a T Shirt. I've been following the incredible conversations you've had on this channel, so I'm really excited to chat with you today about compassion focused therapy. Where would you like to start?
- [00:19]
A
Well, let's start with the basics. How would you define compassion focused therapy in a way that's both clear and engaging for someone who might be new to it?
- [00:30]
B
Great question. Compassion focused therapy, or cft, is all about helping people develop compassion for themselves and others in a way that actually changes how they relate to suffering. It's based on the idea that our brains have evolved to be tricky, wired for survival, not necessarily happiness. Because of that, we often get stuck in patterns of self criticism, shame and anxiety. CFT helps us understand these patterns and work with them rather than against them. A big part of the approach is looking at how our emotions are regulated through three threat, drive and soothing. The threat system keeps us safe, but when it's overactive, it leads to stress and self criticism. The drive system pushes us toward goals, but if it's in overdrive, we can burn out. The soothing system is what helps us feel safe, connected and balanced. But for a lot of people, it's underdeveloped. What makes CFT different is that it actively trains the mind in compassion, not just as an idea, but as an embodied experience. It's not about being soft or passive. It's about courageously facing suffering and responding with wisdom and care. So, in a nutshell, CFT helps people understand their tricky brains, regulate emotions more effectively, and build compassion as a strength they can rely on in difficult times.
- [01:52]
A
You mentioned the tricky brain and the three circles model. Threat, drive and soothing. CFT really has its roots in evolutionary psychology. I wondered whether you could just elaborate there a little bit in terms of Paul Gilbert's evolutionary theory underpinning cft.
- [02:14]
B
Absolutely. One of the foundations of CFT is understanding that our brains evolved for survival, not happiness. We didn't design our minds. They've been shaped by millions of years of evolution, which means a lot of the struggles we experience. Things like anxiety, self criticism, and overthinking aren't personal failings. They're just part of how our brains have developed to keep us safe. At the heart of this is what Paul Gilbert calls the tricky brain. We've inherited brain systems that were incredibly useful for our ancestors, like a strong threat system that helps us detect danger. But in modern life, that same system gets triggered by things like social Rejection, failure, or even just our own thoughts. Unlike animals who shake off stress and move on, we humans can get stuck ruminating, worrying and turning our own minds against ourselves. That's where the three circle model comes in. Our emotions are regulated by three systems. The threat system is always on the lookout for danger, triggering fear, anxiety and self criticism. The drive system pushes us toward achievement and rewards, but when it dominates, it can lead to stress and burnout. The soothing system helps us feel safe, content and connected. But for many people, it's underdeveloped or difficult to access. CFT focuses on strengthening the soothing system so that it can balance out the other two. This doesn't mean getting rid of threat or drive. They're important, but it means we can train our minds to engage with them in a healthier way. What makes this approach powerful is that it helps people see their struggles through an evolutionary lens. Instead of blaming themselves for feeling anxious, self critical or overwhelmed, they can step back and say, oh, this is just my tricky brain doing what it evolved to do. And once we understand that, we can work with our brains rather than feeling trapped by them. That's where compassion comes in. Not just as a nice idea, but as a way of actively reshaping how we respond to suffering.
- [04:16]
A
Yeah, right. We're sort of, we're born with these tricky brains, as you say. And I suppose the next bit too is shaped by experiences, especially experiences relating to caregiving and receiving, our attachment relationships and so on. Would you mind just speaking a bit to the shaped by experience part of CFT and how it really all arrives at it's not our fault, but it is our responsibility.
- [04:48]
B
Absolutely. So we're all born with these tricky brains, wired for survival rather than happiness. But that's only part of the story. The other big piece is how our experiences shape the way these systems develop and function. From the moment we're born, our brains are learning. We're picking up signals about whether the world is safe, whether we are lovable, and how we should respond to distress. A big part of that comes from our early caregiving experiences. How we were cared for, how emotions were handled in our environment, and what kinds of attachment patterns we developed. If we grew up in an environment where there was warmth, care and consistent soothing, then our soothing system gets a chance to develop well meaning. We can self soothe, feel safe in relationships and be kind to ourselves. But if we had experiences of criticism, neglect, or even just high expectations without emotional support, we might learn that self worth is tied to achievement or that we have to be on guard all the time. That can lead to an overactive threat system or a drive system that never lets us rest. This is why self criticism and shame are so common. For many people, these patterns developed as a way to survive in their early environments. Maybe being self critical kept them from making mistakes that led to rejection. Maybe striving for success was the only way to feel accepted. These responses aren't random. They're deeply shaped by our experiences. And this is where that key idea in CFT comes in. It's not our fault, but it is our responsibility. We didn't choose our tricky brains and we didn't choose our early life experiences. But as adults, we have the opportunity to understand how we've been shaped and to take responsibility for how we respond to our suffering. T helps with that by building compassion as an active skill so we can work with our minds in a way that's wise, courageous and and caring. Instead of staying stuck in patterns of self criticism or avoidance, we can start to train a different response. One that supports healing and growth rather than reinforcing threat.
- [06:55]
A
You've mentioned a couple of times now. I think wisdom, strength, courage. What is it that in what ways does compassion really require compassion? Courage?
- [07:11]
B
That's such an important question because a lot of people think of compassion as just being soft or gentle. But in reality, compassion takes real courage. Paul Gilbert often talks about compassion as a courageous mind. And that's because turning towards suffering, whether it's our own or someone else's, is not easy. There are a few reasons why compassion requires courage. First, it takes courage to see suffering. Our natural instinct is often to avoid pain, to distract ourselves or to push it away. But compassion asks us to actually turn towards suffering, to acknowledge it and to sit with it rather than run from it. Then there's the courage to feel suffering. When we really engage with compassion, we don't just notice suffering, we allow ourselves to feel it. That can be deeply uncomfortable because it brings up emotions like sadness, grief or fear. It's much easier to stay detached. But compassion means opening ourselves up to the reality of suffering while also holding it with care. And finally, there's the courage to take action. Compassion isn't just about feeling, it's about doing. Sometimes that means offering kindness to ourselves when every part of us wants to be self critical. Sometimes it means setting boundaries or standing up for what's right, even when it's difficult. And sometimes it means showing up for others, even when we feel helpless or unsure of what to do. So when we talk about compassion in cft, we're not just talking about being warm and kind. We're talking about having the strength to face suffering, the wisdom to understand what's needed, and the courage to take compassionate action even when it's hard.
- [08:51]
A
It's so interesting that you mentioned there some of the misconceptions really about compassion that that people sometimes are concerned that it's just being nice or that it's a bit soft, or that self compassion, for example, is a bit self indulgent. And those kinds of almost like fears, blocks and resistances, I think is what they're referred to in cft. How would you respond to those sorts of ideas?
- [09:23]
B
That's such an important area because a lot of people have misconceptions about compassion and those can actually become barriers to developing it. One of the most common ones is the idea that compassion is just about being nice, that it's passive or soft. But in cft, we see compassion as strength in action. It's not about letting things slide or avoiding difficulties. It's about having the courage to face suffering and respond wisely. Another big concern people have is, especially with self compassion, is that it's indulgent or weak. They worry that if they're kind to themselves, they'll lose motivation or let themselves off the hook. But actually, research shows the opposite. Self compassion helps people become more resilient, more motivated, and better able to handle setbacks. If we think about a really good teacher, coach or mentor, they're not harsh and critical. They encourage support and guide. That's what self compassion does. It helps us learn and grow without the crushing weight of shame or self judgment. Some people even feel resistant to compassion because it's unfamiliar or even threatening. If someone grew up in an environment where warmth and kindness were rare, compassion might feel strange or even unsafe. In cft, we actually explore fears, blocks and resistances to compassion, helping people understand where those feelings come from and how to gently work through them. So when people say compassion is weak or self compassion is indulgent, I'd say compassion is one of the strongest, most courageous and most responsible things we can cultivate for ourselves and for others. It's not about avoiding reality, it's about facing it with wisdom and care.
- [11:07]
A
It's a tricky one because on the one hand, it seems that compassion is just such an important response to human suffering and that cultivating compassion for others and ourselves seems like a really great idea. And then on the other hand, people can feel blocked to it as well. There might be misconceptions and so on. What do you do in CFT to actually start to move towards actually cultivating compassion and self compassion, or perhaps even the compassion itself.
- [11:43]
B
That's such an important point. On one level, compassion makes complete sense. Why wouldn't we want to be kinder to ourselves and others? But on another level, it's not always easy. People can feel blocked, resistant, or even afraid of compassion. And that's why CFT doesn't just tell people to be more compassionate, it helps them actively train compassion as a skill. One of the key ways we do that is is through what's called compassionate mind training. This is about developing the compassionate self, not just as an idea, but as something people can actually feel in their bodies and minds. A big part of this involves imagery based practices. For example, people might start by imagining a compassionate figure, something that embodies deep wisdom, strength and warmth. This could be a person, an animal, or even just a sense of presence. Eventually, the goal is to shift from receiving compassion from an external source to actually embodying the compassion itself, stepping into it as a way of being. Then there are body based practices like soothing rhythm breathing, which helps shift the nervous system into a state of safeness. This is really important because compassion isn't just about thinking differently. It's about creating an internal sense of safeness so that the mind can engage with compassion rather than retreat into threat or self criticism. Another powerful tool in CFT is chair work, where people actually have conversations between different parts of themselves, maybe between their self critic and their compassionate self. This can be incredibly revealing because it helps externalize those harsh inner voices and allows the compassionate self to respond in a way that's strong, supportive and wise. Ultimately, the compassionate self is something we train and strengthen like a muscle. CFT doesn't expect people to just suddenly be more compassionate. It provides structured ways to build compassion as a real embodied skill that can help regulate emotions, shift patterns of self criticism, and create a healthier, more balanced way of relating to suffering.
- [13:52]
A
You know, you've mentioned self criticism and shame I think a few times, and this seems to be the sort of the major areas where CFT might be applied. Why is self criticism just so common really, amongst lots and lots of people? And how does CFT help people work with their self criticism?
- [14:15]
B
That's such a crucial area because self criticism is something so many people struggle with and it can be incredibly destructive. In fact, CFT really developed out of Paul Gilbert's work with people who were highly self critical and experiencing deep shame. He found that traditional cognitive approaches like challenging negative thoughts weren't always enough. Because self criticism isn't just about thoughts. It's deeply tied to emotion, threat, and even our sense of identity. Self criticism is so common because from an evolutionary perspective, it actually started as a survival mechanism. Our ancestors needed to stay in the group to survive, so being rejected or failing socially could be a real threat. Over time, our brains developed internal self monitoring systems to keep us in check, to prevent us from making mistakes, embarrassing ourselves or being excluded. In small doses, this can be helpful, but for many people, the it becomes harsh and relentless. Self criticism turns into a constant internal attack, activating the threat system just like an external danger would. That's why self criticism isn't just negative thinking. It actually triggers stress, anxiety and feelings of unworthiness, keeping people stuck in cycles of shame. CFT helps people work with self criticism in a few key ways. First, it helps them understand where their self critic comes from. That it's not a personal failing, but an evolved survival strategy shaped by life experiences. Just recognizing that can be a huge relief. Then, rather than trying to get rid of self criticism, CFT introduces an alternative, the compassionate self. We help people develop a compassionate inner voice, one that isn't just nice, but actually wise, strong and supportive. A powerful technique for this is chair work, where we literally set up a dialogue between the self critic and the compassionate self. When people step into their compassionate self, they often realize that they don't need to fight their self critic. They need to understand it, reassure it, and respond with wisdom and care. Alongside that, we use soothing rhythm, breathing and other body based practices to help shift out of the threat system. Because self criticism isn't just about words, it's also about how our nervous system is reacting. So rather than just saying stop being so self critical, CFT helps people actively train a different way of relating to themselves, using compassion as a regulator of emotion, a source of strength, and an antidote to shame.
- [16:50]
A
Okay, so there seems to be all of the theoretical underpinnings and it's an integrative model really by the sounds of it. There's the evolutionary biopsychosocial model of the mind that Paul Gilbert has developed, and there's psychoeducation around that that might be offered to people arriving at it's not my fault, but it is my responsibility. And then there's these skills that we might move towards, the body based practices, the imagery practices, things like chair work and so on that might help to embody the compassionate self. Being aware that there are these fears, blocks and resistances that we might be working with along the way, there's a lot of talk about self compassion these days, or at least in my world there is a lot of talk about it. But how does CFT's approach to self compassion perhaps differ? Or perhaps how might it be the same and or different from other models like mindful self compassion, for example?
- [17:57]
B
That's a really interesting question because self compassion has become such a big topic in psychology and different approaches bring unique perspectives to it. CFT has a lot in common with other self compassion models like mindful self compassion, MSC or compassion Cultivation Training. But it also has some distinct differences is in terms of its of its theoretical foundations, its focus on evolutionary psychology, and its emphasis on compassion as a motivational system. One of the big similarities across these approaches is the idea that self compassion is an essential antidote to self criticism, shame and emotional suffering. They all encourage self kindness over self judgment, mindful awareness over avoidance, and a sense of connected humanity rather than isolation. So so in that way they share common ground. But what makes CFT unique is its evolutionary biopsychosocial framework. In cft, self compassion isn't just about treating yourself with kindness. It's about understanding why self compassion can be difficult in the first place. Paul Gilbert's approach highlights that our brains evolved with strong threat and drive systems. And for many people the soothing system is underdeveloped. This means self compassion isn't always easy or automatic. It has to be actively trained, just like strengthening a muscle. Another key difference is that CFT emphasizes compassion as a motivational system. In msc, for example, self compassion is often framed as a warm, accepting attitude, a way of being with your suffering in a gentle way. In cft, compassion is more than just warmth. It's about taking action. Paul Gilbert defines compassion as a sensitivity to suffering with a commitment to try to alleviate and prevent it. So in cft, we're actively training the compassionate self not just as a feeling, but as a powerful, engaged mindset that can stand up to suffering with courage and wisdom. CFT also takes a very structured approach to training compassion. Rather than just encouraging people to be self compassionate, it provides specific imagery, breathing, body based and chairwork exercises to help people actually embody their compassionate self. The idea is that self compassion is not just a cognitive shift, it's a whole mind, whole body experience. Finally, CFT has a particular focus on working with fears, blocks and resistances to compassion. Some people actually find compassion difficult or even threatening. Maybe they grew up in an environment where kindness wasn't safe, or they believe that being self compassionate will make them weak or lazy. CFT directly explores these barriers and helps people work through them, whereas some other self compassion models assume that people will naturally find self compassion appealing. So while cft, msc and other models all share the goal of helping people develop self compassion, CFT is unique in its evolutionary grounding, its structured approach to compassion training, and its focus on compassion as a strength that requires courage and motivation. It's not just about feeling kindness. It's about developing compassion as a psychological capacity that can help regulate emotions, reduce self criticism, and support resilience.
- [21:15]
A
I think something you said there is really important the mention of motivational systems and compassion as a motivation. I know that a lot of the theory behind that too is really social mentality theory and the evolved social mentalities that might become sort of relevant in terms of us living in groups and looking after each other and our survival and all of that sort of thing. Can you give us just a few kind of highlights around this motivational system stuff and maybe social mentality theory?
- [21:53]
B
Yes, that's a really key part of cft. When we talk about compassion as a motivational system, we're looking at how our minds evolve to navigate social relationships. Humans are a highly social species. We've always depended on each other for survival, and over time, our brains developed specific social mentalities to help us form bonds, cooperate, and regulate each other's emotions. Social mentality theory, which is central to cft, suggests that our brains are wired for different social roles and we shift between them depending on the context. For example, we have mentalities for caring, receiving care, cooperating, competing and defending ourselves. Each of these mentalities activates different emotions and physiological states influencing how we feel and behave. The compassion motivation comes from our evolved caregiving mentality, the system that helps parents care and care for their children and groups care for their members. When this system is activated, we experience warmth, connection, and a desire to alleviate suffering. But crucially, caregiving isn't just about feeling, it's about action. If a child is crying, a caregiver doesn't just say, oh, that's sad. They move toward the distress and do something to help. That's why compassion is not just an emotion, but a drive to act. In cft, we deliberately train this compassionate motivational system so that it becomes a stronger, more reliable way of responding to distress, whether that's our own suffering or someone else's. When the compassion system is engaged, it helps regulate threat based emotions like anxiety, shame and self criticism, shifting us into a state where we can be more balanced, resilient and connected. But here's where it gets interesting. Many people struggle with self compassion because their caregiving mentality is more active toward others than toward themselves. In other words, they can care for others, but when it comes to their own suffering, they switch into self criticism or avoidance instead. CFT helps bridge this gap. It trains people to direct the same caregiving motivation they'd naturally offer to others back toward themselves. So when we say compassion is a motivational system, we mean it's something deeply wired into our evolution. It's not just a nice idea. It's a fundamental part of how humans survive, connect and regulate emotions. And in cft, we're learning how to deliberately strengthen this system to create a healthier, more compassionate way of relating to ourselves and others.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah, great. I think that was really important. Just to kind of elaborate a little bit on, on the social mentality theory and really the idea of algorithms, isn't it? In some ways, compassion is an algorithm. We might have the stimulus and the response almost the stimulus is the sensitivity to distress or suffering in others or ourselves. And the response is this commitment to try to take helpful action and alleviate the suffering. So those motivational kind of algorithms, I think, are really important in thinking about CFT and trying to formulate what compassion is, how to learn it, how to develop it, how to cultivate it.
- [25:12]
B
Exactly. That's such a great way to put it. Compassion as an algorithm, a kind of evolved stimulus response system. In cft, we're not just thinking about compassion as an abstract feeling. We're looking at it as a structured process that our brains can learn, train, and strengthen. At its core, compassion follows a predictable pattern. First, we develop sensitivity to suffering. Then we engage with the motivation to take action. It's not just about noticing distress. It's about responding in a way that's wise, caring, and effective. This is why compassion is trainable. If we think about it like an algorithm or a mental habit, it means we can actually practice each step of the process. One, noticing suffering, whether in ourselves or others. Two, understanding it. Why is this happening? What's influencing it? Three, tolerating it, not shutting down or avoiding discomfort. Four, responding with care, bringing in warmth, wisdom and support. Five, taking action, whether that's self soothing, helping someone, or setting boundaries. And because our brains are shaped by repetition, every time we activate this process, it becomes easier, faster, and more natural. That's why CFT is so focused on practice, imagery, breathing, chair work. All these techniques are about reinforcing the compassionate algorithm, so it becomes a stronger and more automatic way of responding to suffering. So when we think about learning, developing and cultivating compassion. It's really about strengthening this mental pathway so that when suffering arises, whether it's stress, self criticism or external pain, we don't default to avoidance or threat. Instead, we instinctively move toward a compassionate, wise and courageous response.
- [26:56]
A
Yeah, great. I think that's the key, isn't it? Is practice. In fact, I was wondering, if someone is watching this and wanting to bring more compassion or self compassion into their daily life, what's one simple but powerful thing they could start doing today?
- [27:16]
B
That's a great question. Because sometimes compassion can feel like a big abstract idea, but in reality, small, consistent practices make the biggest difference. One of the simplest but most powerful things someone can start doing today is soothing rhythm breathing. It sounds almost too simple, but how we breathe directly affects our nervous system. And in cft, we use breathing to help shift the body and mind into a state where compassion can naturally emerge. A really easy way to do this is one, sit comfortably and allow your body to relax, but with a sense of strength. Two, breathe in slowly for about four or five seconds, then breathe out gently for four or five seconds. Three, find a rhythm that feels soothing and steady, like the way you might breathe if you are comforting someone else. Four, as you breathe, imagine sending warmth and kindness inward, almost as if you're settling your system with care. This practice helps calm the threat system and activate the soothing system, making it easier to respond to stress with compassion rather than reactivity. And what's really powerful about it is that once you establish this breathing rhythm, you can start using it in real life situations before a difficult conversation, when self criticism kicks in, or when you notice yourself getting caught in threat. But it becomes a way to anchor yourself in compassion, even in the middle of challenges. So if someone wants to start bringing more compassion into their life, I'd say begin with the breath, start small, practice consistently, and let that be the foundation for cultivating a more compassionate mind.
- [28:56]
A
Yeah, love it. I mean, I want one of the sayings I always have is bring it back to the body. Always bring it back to the body, because that's where we can really get started, no matter perhaps what the context or situation and so on. So that's really great advice. I've just got two more questions. The next one is a little bit silly, but I wondered, can you suggest any compassion focused therapy jokes for me?
- [29:29]
B
I love that saying, bring it back to the body, because that's exactly it. The body is where we can anchor compassion no matter what's going on in the mind. And now for a bit of fun. Here's a CFT joke for you. Why did the self critic go to therapy? Because it kept telling else it wasn't good enough at being self critical. Or how about this one? Have you tried being kinder to yourself? Yeah, but my self critic said I was doing it wrong. And one more for good measure. Why did the compassionate self break up with the self critic? Because it finally set a boundary and said I deserve better. I don't know if CFT jokes will ever make it to the comedy clubs, but hey, if we can laugh about self criticism, we're already one step closer to self compassion.
- [30:15]
A
Well, that's not too bad. Thank you for those jokes. Perhaps, yes, they do need a little bit of of work, but that's good. So the last question then. If you could sum up the essence of CFT in one sentence, what would it be?
- [30:34]
B
That's a great challenge. If I had to sum up the essence of CFT in one sentence, I'd say compassion focused therapy helps us understand our tricky brains, work with self criticism and shame, and train the compassionate mind so we can respond to suffering with wisdom, strength, and care for ourselves and others.
- [30:55]
A
Beautiful. Well, I think that's a great place to finish. ChatGPT. Thank you very much for joining me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [31:07]
B
Thank you, Stan. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you. Compassion in a T shirt is such a fantastic space for exploring these ideas and I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. Thanks for having me.
- [31:20]
A
Thank you very much.