← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Audra Horni, who's a licensed psychologist and therapist for men based in Arizona in the usa. I came across Audra on Instagram where she's a staunch advocate for men and men seeking therapy. How can we make therapy feel relevant for men? How can we make therapy feel comfortable for men? And how can we make therapy feel safe for men? We do a deep dive into her perspective on all of that, but also, how might compassion fit in? Different people can have different thoughts about compassion and self compassion or receiving compassion for others. And men, of course, are no different. She offers us some real pearls of wisdom. And so I bring you Dr. Audra Horni. Okay, well, Dr. Audra Horney, thank you very much. And well, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [01:11]
B
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat.
- [01:15]
A
You've dedicated much of your work to helping men, I guess, engage with therapy and on often for the first time. I mean, first of all, I suppose. Yeah. What drew you to focus on men's mental health specifically? And what makes that feel important?
- [01:33]
B
Sure, yeah. It's a question I get often because when I tell people that I'm a therapist and then follow that up quickly and letting them know my specialization is men's mental health, I'm a therapist for men. I get a lot of honestly, shocked, surprised, grateful, confused reactions. It really runs the gamut. And unfortunately, I think it's because it is not very common for women in particular to focus on this area. And it's genuinely the work that found me. I didn't pursue this in graduate school. My focus was on more generalist things, therapy. But I did attend programs that had strong multicultural or social justice focuses. And so, honestly, that has informed a lot of my work and advocacy in this space because I believe that we, we all deserve inclusive, culturally informed spaces for therapy. And unfortunately, I believe that's significantly lacking for men. And so this is the work clinically that I've done for about 10 years in different agency settings and private practices. And then it was just a few years ago when I left a group practice to start my own practice that I started speaking more publicly about my specialization, started creating content on social media, and now have had the opportunities to speak to people like you and spread this message further and really lean into the advocacy component of this in, you know, I think, a way that has his significant reach in a way that is significant beyond what can happen one on one in our Offices.
- [03:25]
A
And where are men at at the moment, do you think, in terms of, like, what. What makes. What can a therapy space offer, do you think, for men? I mean, there's a reluctance there sometimes and so on. And yet it. It seems important. What. What might they get there that really they're not getting elsewhere?
- [03:43]
B
Yeah. I mean, I would argue, and I think I could back this up, that the men are not all right. And they, I believe, are really desperately craving connection and support and to be known and to be seen and not always knowing where to find that, or not always knowing that each other wants that as much as they do. And I believe that, you know, therapy can offer this, like, really safe container for men to exist, to be messy, to be inarticulate, to be confused, to be angry, to be frustrated, to. To say that they're struggling. Uh, sometimes I will. I. I'm very much myself in the therapy room. I try to incorporate humor and sarcasm and, you know, I'll say things to my clients, especially early in our work together, when I can tell they may be hesitating to, like, really share what they're struggling with and to speak to a woman about, you know, being a man and having a hard time. And I'll joke and I'll say, I get it. Like, I'm not going to tell you to go post production. Like, whatever you say here on the Internet, like, that will not go over well. But I promise you, like, I'm not going to cancel you in here. Like, I'm not trying to trap you. I'm not trying to back you into a corner. I truly believe that you're struggling, and I just want to understand your story. And I think therapy should be a space where men can assume that they receive that. Unfortunately, I don't think it is always a space where men feel that sort of safety. And so that's informed a lot of my work and advocacy online is not just letting men know that those spaces exist for them, but really calling therapists to the table to say, you know, we can't. I don't believe we can responsibly shame men for not going to therapy. If therapists aren't doing our part to make sure that therapy is marketed as a space inclusive of men.
- [05:45]
A
I really sort of, in my own way, feel that too, in terms of the first bit that you said, that it's. It can feel threatening to actually say what you think in. In the modern world. And. And yet we need to be able to say what we think so that we can kind of Work out what we think and we can sort of navigate our way through the different bits to that. And, and yet if we blurt something out, it can feel risky. And, and that will kind of have some sort of negative consequences. And, and so to, to. Well, I guess a lot of people just therefore don't speak. Or, or they.
- [06:21]
B
Right.
- [06:21]
A
They, they go online kind of with a pseudonym or something, and they say all sorts of crazy stuff too. But, but to have a space where, you know, it feels reliably safe to, to, to actually have that conversation. You've talked before in podcasts about how often therapists present themselves with the, the websites with soft colors or with the little gentle quotes and, you know, that sort of thing. Whereas you said somewhere that you have the man in the arena quote, I think from Theodore Roosevelt in your room, in my lobby, in my, in the waiting room. So. Well, what, what is that quote, actually. But also. Yeah, what, what do you do to make that therapy space feel kind of safe and, or even relevant, I guess, for men?
- [07:14]
B
Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's across all of my marketing and my branding. Like, I really want what I'm putting out there, my, you know, even my myself, to, to be very clear and consistent. So I think that is huge when we're trying to build trust that, you know, this is a space for men. And so whether it be on my website and the language that I'm using or, you know, the design and fonts and colors or pictures, I'm in my office right now and, you know, I have a lot of, like, leather and earth tones, and my waiting room, as you mentioned, has a wooden engraved man in the arena quote, which is by Teddy Roosevelt. And it's essentially, if you've read Brenny Brown staring Greatly, she pulls from this quote in that book. And it's, it's ultimately you saying, you know, let's. I don't know if you want to read it, but it's, it's saying, you know, let's not fault the man in the arena with the dirt on his face and the blood on his hands. Like, he's the one working so hard. And, you know, you're going to be in the stands and you're going to laugh at him. Like, what have you done? Like, let's, let's get in the arena. That's where the growth happens.
- [08:31]
A
What's.
- [08:31]
B
It's hard, but it's worth it. And so it's, it's the, it's the first thing men see when they walk into My office is, is this quote. And I, I love the quote personally. The work that I do and the, the, the reason I love this, this work so much is just what feels most true to me. I resonate. I mean, I, I didn't just create a man cave out of an office. I created a space I want to be in. Like, I feel comfortable here and I also want to make sure that that space feels welcoming of men. But it's true to me too. Like, it's not a, it's not an act, it's not, it's not performative. These are things I stand by and believe in. But I do want to make sure that when men interact with my content or they are in my office or they are on my website, that they feel seen.
- [09:25]
A
Yeah. Yes. There's, there's an authenticity that really matters. There isn't there for the therapist, really.
- [09:31]
B
You know, I think that's, I think that's everything. And, you know, I think I'm going to stop. I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to speak in, you know, general terms today, of course, like, I can't speak about all men. And, you know, all therapists are all like. So I'll speak generally just as like a caveat, I think, to cover me for making some broad statements. But I believe that like, men especially coming into therapy are, are like demanding authenticity. They might not say it that way, but they're going to smell from a mile away. And so if I'm showing up performing or putting on a therapist voice or not leaning in to even like a joke that I might find funny, that maybe he, maybe it's a little bit inappropriate, like, if I'm not showing up, honestly. But I'm asking him to. If I'm not showing up authentically and professionally and ethically, of course, but authentically. And I'm asking him to, like, what a fucking fraud like that. That seems so unfair and it seems so unproductive in my opinion. And so it's one of the reasons why I really love social media as a therapist myself, because I show up very honestly there and again, professionally and ethically and boundaried by. But I say what I mean and I feel confident standing up for the things that I will stand behind. And I think that that resonates for people like we, especially right now. I feel like in a world where like, AI and these sorts of things are taking over, like, we, I think are just going to become like, more and more depleted of authenticity and just real human interaction or content and so like we gotta, I think as therapists, I, I believe it is like I'm not a blank slate therapist and I, I don't shame anyone who is or he keeps himself more out of the room. But for me, utilizing an appropriate degree of self disclosure with my male clients is crucial. Like I, I feel like I build rapport and buy in by sharing things in the room so that I'm human too. I'm not coming at them from this better than you expert pedestal. And that degree of authenticity may not be even what how I was trained as a therapist, but I've learned a lot through this work that I've done. And it's like I said, it's still boundaried, it's still ethical, it's for the client. But I, I just think if we're going to show up for our clients and this conversation specifically with men in a way that they're going to want to come back, then it sure as hell better be honest.
- [12:28]
A
They're kind of looking for, or they, or we are sort of looking for any excuse to flee really, aren't we? And inauthenticity would be a good reason not to come back. And so yeah, trying to find someone who can be sort of real and kind of authentic and genuine and laugh along with our sort of crazy jokes or whatever and, but authentically. And that relationship piece seems to be the key. Yeah.
- [13:01]
B
And it starts before I have met them. It's another reason why I think being on social media can be so powerful as a therapist. My clients who find me through social media are able to vet me pretty thoroughly before they try to get on my calendar and many do for months and months and months before they reach out. And yeah, of course you should like see if I'm just performative in the ways that I'm speaking and showing up and what I stand for. You know, see if you, you know, can sniff out any bullshit. Like you should demand that I be someone you trust and see that what I say, that there's consistency in what I say, there's consistency across like wherever you might see me, whether it be in a podcast or on a website and then sitting in my office like it should feel consistent and that that's relationship building right before I even realize that I'm doing it, like I, or, or I'm passively building a relationship. You said before, I think before we started recording that you feel like you kind of know me already because of my content or listening to podcasts and, and what an awful experience it would be if then you're sitting in my office and I'm this completely different person and you feel like there was this bait and switch that happened. Like this, this is so pivotal. Like, this is so crucial to the work we do. The work we do is relational. And in this modern era where we can show up in all these different mediums, where a client can hear me on a podcast or see me on TikTok before they enter into my space, face like it is my obligation to make sure that I am consistently showing up in a way that they can build trust before and maintain trust after they meet me.
- [14:48]
A
It's so funny because just before you mentioned it there, I, I, I did suddenly reflect on the fact that I had said that before we got onto the actually recording that. And, and so I suddenly realized that I've, I had the very experience that, that you're describing a funny sort of way because it does come across online in all of those forums in, in a very kind of real sort of way. And, and there's, there's a few, I don't know if they're myths or something, but one of your posts, one of your pinned posts sort of says, you know, things I didn't learn in grad school, read therapy for men. And the first one is, you know, humor in session isn't deflective and be ready for it to be dark is what you said there. And I think there are little things like that where, and you hear it, actually you hear it amongst therapists that humor gets kind of pinned as being like a defense mechanism or something like that. And you've really kind of, I guess, discovered that actually it's not necessarily so. It has lots of functions, really. Humor another.
- [15:58]
B
So many, so many functions. Yeah, I think humor is a big one. You know, humor to me, like that's part of, part of the rapport building process with my clients. It's part of the vetting process. Like if we, if you're, if your sense of humor doesn't jive with my sense of humor, like a therapy is probably not going to go very well. My jokes don't land, you're going to find me very annoying and not want to come back every week. And so I think that in terms of, you know, finding that fit and connection, it's huge. And in relation to it being a defense mechanism, like, you know, I, I incorporate a lot of ifs or parts work into the, the work that I do. And I think if we, you know, walk away from this idea of a defense mechanism or something being deflective. And we think about it as being adaptive and protective that takes on such a different shape and feel, not to mention humor, as like a. A moment to breathe. Like, I feel like sometimes some of the. The funniest moments where my client, like clients and I are maybe like in tears, almost in laughter, are in the midst of sometimes the darkest, hardest moments. Like, I think that in the work that I do with men so often that humor is an opportunity to, like, get your head up above water and take a deep breath before we submerge again and to, you know, call that out or dismiss that as defensive or avoidant without understanding the function of it is, I think, just.
- [17:32]
A
It's missing an opportunity in a way.
- [17:35]
B
You're right. It's such a missed opportunity.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah. No, I really. I remember learning that lesson very much with the veterans. That was Vietnam veterans from some years ago now, but. Yeah, and. And people around me feeling like it was just a deflection, but it's not. It's part of the dance. And it's important functionally to actually then also kind of get to the hard stuff. My approach that I often take, compassion focused therapy, is sort of an approach I use. Although, funnily enough, I'm interviewing someone this afternoon about ifs. So I'm excited to learn more about that. But I think there is quite a lot of crossover there because in cft, we might also work with parts as well in multiple cells and, and the, the multiplicity and. And trying to understand the motivations and. And that sort of thing. And. But, but, but we work towards, I guess, cultivating the compassionate mind or the compassionate self. And, you know, so compassion being this sort of motivation to be sensitive to suffering in ourselves or in others, and then commitment to try to alleviate or prevent that suffering. And so it's interesting that you've mentioned ifs, because I know the self comes along, I think, with a kind of a compassionate motivation as well. But I wanted to sort of see what you thought here about men and compassion. Like, how does this idea of compassion, or self compassion for that matter, how does that resonate with your work with men? Or do you use that language or do you use other words or framing to. To help them connect with some of that.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah, I'm. I'm so glad that we get to have this conversation because it's. I've learned along the way that there are just words that if I have to be prepared, if I use them, they're going to get a reaction that I may not be Intending with a client. Like there are a handful of words now that I've learned through the years where I like oh, this is gonna, I'm gonna have to defend myself and using this word and compassion is one of them. Self compassion in particular. And I find that a lot of men I work with immediately take that as like pity or like weakness. Like I don't want, I don't want, I don't want your pity. I don't want to pity myself. Like this idea or this idea of like oh that's just me like settling. That's me accepting that I've, I've failed and I'm just gonna be, be okay with that and not push myself harder. Like there's, I've experienced this really adverse reaction to the concept of self compassion. And so it's actually caused me to like use the term less in my work with men. And, and it's, you know, it's. But it's interesting because incorporating ifs for example, like it's, it's very much about being able to, to understand and recognize and, and integrate these parts but also be able to clarify your, your self energy and with that is like compassion. Like that's where that's housed. And I think that the approach that I generally take though with men is, is more about giving permission to like respect or understand the suffering parts and like through that, to gain that access to like love for themselves and compassion for what they went through. So I, I feel like I go through maybe like a, you know, a back entrance to say like this, this part that you hate so much. Like can we, can we understand that? Like what, where's that rooted? How long has that part been there? Can we understand where its pain is coming from? And I think oftentimes there is such a childhood component there that I have a lot of men who can, who can connect with the love and compassion they might have for a kid or they're even their younger self or their own children. And it's like through that, it's often I feel through that like shift in perspective taking that I can bring a client to a place of like, I guess I deserve that too. I probably shouldn't be, you know, eliminated from the list of people who deserve compassion. But I found that if I, if I go sort of like heavy handed directly into self compassion without setting the stage, I can, I found that men will often try to like almost push that away. Like that's not for me. Like I may offer that to other people, but I don't want that Pity from other, pity from others, like may misinterpret it as something different. And I don't want to like lower the standards for myself.
- [22:45]
A
Yeah, that's clever. I mean we think in CFT about those fears, blocks and resistances to compassion or self compassion. And you described a number of the things that can come up that sort of, it feels too much like self pity or it feels too self indulgent or I'll get lax and lazy or you know, I won't be as motivated or you know, those are the sorts of, kind of reactive bits that come straight, you know, sort of react directly to even just the word sort of thing. But if you come at it a bit more from that notion that, that there are parts of ourselves that are really suffering and you know, and to not only that, but to be able to see that suffering is also not really my fault actually it's often arising out of early life experiences or things that have shaped us over time. And sometimes direct sources of suffering like trauma and so on, but sometimes also indirect ones like just the social messages that men receive about how they should be strong and stoic and self reliance and all that sort of stuff. But if, if you can firstly help people to think about and connect and to sort of de shame the suffering, then the kind of helpfulness and the alleviating the suffering or the care or the compassion makes a lot more sense, I guess, or something like that.
- [24:09]
B
I've found that that's an entry point, like there's more access there. I, but as you bring up, you know, how men are socialized, I think that's a piece of it too. I, I mean I, I, I only have the experiences as a, a female clinician offering therapy for my male clients. But I, I often have clients get really uncomfortable when I'm offering empathy or validation and they have a really hard time owning their own accomplishments and giving themselves credit and self love. And so I, I, I think there's also a socialized component of this where self compassion or empathy is not something that as many men as I wish like had experience receiving even as kids feeling like they were neglected of that sort of emotional support or encouragement to love themselves the way we might encourage or, or offer love to younger little girls. And so I think that might be a piece of it too is that, you know, I, I watch my clients get like squirmy when I'm offering them feedback and validation or highlighting their progress or highlighting their strength or resiliency. And so if it is difficult to receive even from an outsider, then it would make sense to me that it would feel uncomfortable to offer it to themselves.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah, I've just had John Mayer's daughter's song pop to mind for some reason. I've just looked it up here. Boys you can break you'll find out how much they can take. Boys will be strong and boys soldier on but boys would be gone without warmth from a woman's good, good heart. Oh, that's, that's a nice ending to the. But I was remembering those first couple of lines. You know, it's. It is interesting. It's. It's built into kind of our social worlds and our sort of expectations of boys growing up. And often they are more kind of encouraged to soldier on rather than to know really what it's like to, to experience empathy or soothing or some of those aspects that might, you know, come in with self. Compassion.
- [26:23]
B
I agree. Yeah.
- [26:27]
A
So, so how do you actually move into working with feelings? I guess, like what, what, what do you do there in terms of kind of naming feelings, expressing needs, you know, developing, I guess, a kind of wisdom. With men, actually, to be honest, in, in cft, we, we think of compassion as, as being made up of wisdom and strength and courage and, and caring and so on. But yeah, that, you know, how do you help men build a kind of emotional vocabulary?
- [27:00]
B
Yeah, it's a, it's a big part of the work I do, especially early on with, with men who maybe have never been to therapy or haven't engaged in that sort of like personal growth work, um, or coming in, you know, fairly emotionally suppressed and struggling because those, those emotions have manifested themselves maybe in other ways and addiction, anger, other, other symptoms. Um, and I really love using Mark Brackett's emotion grid Hero. Permission to Feel. And it's, it's a wonderful grid. I like it in contrast to an emotion wheel because it offers emotions with two different axes of. I think it's low to high energy or low to high pleasantness. And so it gives a little bit more direction. Like the. I feel like the emotion wheel, anytime I hand that to a male client, I always preface it with like, this is going to be way more emotion words than you are ever going to want or need in your entire life. And I feel like with the emotion grid though, it, it, it's like, okay, ground yourself on the axes, like how's your energy? And does it feel good or bad to be where you're at? And then you get to kind of focus in on these cluster of emotions that might land there. I Also think it's nice because it can bring in more of that, like, psychosomatic or physical experience of emotion that a lot of men might notice before they notice or even know how to name an emotion. Um, so, yeah, that's something I, you know, I share with clients, and we use this. This in session. I always tell them, save it on your phone and use it every day. And I offer education, too, in. In normalizing the fact that maybe they've only really been encouraged to be fine, numb, or angry. And, you know, maybe they only had permission to feel other emotions during intimate moments with a partner or when the football team won the state championship. Right. Like, you have these. These specific little moments in. In life when men have that permission for a broader span of emotions. And so I. I normalize that a lot and normalize the fact that if you're not feeling much like. I bet when you are feeling it, it's really overwhelming. I talk about the window of tolerance and dysregulation and what that might feel like for them and their bodies and normalizing how a lot of these emotions may come through the channel of anger, because maybe that's the only emotion they saw modeled by other men or the only one that was allowed. And so I think that sort of education goes a long way. And I don't make any assumptions about you. My. What my clients might know or not know. Many of my clients, though, will tell me, you know, I'd just rather not feel my emotions. I don't. I don't. I wish I didn't have them. I don't want emotions. I don't have emotions. Right. Like, I'm just logical. And just even then providing the education around that, like, well, you may do a really, really great job of bottling up those emotions, but I. I promise you've got some. And whether or not you're able to articulate it or you feel like you're, you know, expressing them in a way that is productive is another thing. But not shaming that, like, really, again, like, normalizing and educating around the ways we even, like, socialize little boys and little girls. And telling my clients that, you know, studies have shown that baby boys are more emotionally expressive than baby girls, but we socialize that out of them after a few years. And so being able to just bring in the science, I find is really helpful because it's not just me, you know, speaking out of thin air about emotions and why I think they should feel them. I'm like, here's what the research says. Here's why it's productive. Here's what emotions do for us. It's not just emotions for the sake of emotions. You're stuck, you're numb, you're unfulfilled. You can't make decisions. It's because you don't have your emotions in order and you're not using them to their advantage.
- [30:55]
A
Yes. Anger is sort of one thing, isn't it? It's. It's more commonly felt and experienced and understood and expressed and so on. Yeah. Anxiety, too. What. What are your thoughts about sadness? How do you go for men? Yeah, with. With. With going there. Because that. That's sort of such a vulnerable feeling, that emotion, you know, to feel sad, you know, and sort of even, you know, even evolutionarily, sadness is very vulnerable because we cry and we can't see and we can't breathe very well, and we feel weak at the knees and we can't run. But for men, too, I'm often curious about sadness and how to start to access some of that, work through it.
- [31:41]
B
I mean, I find at the. The channel through shame is a pretty effective one. Shame is an emotion that almost all of my clients have intimate experiences with, but hardly any of them are naming it as shame. When they're coming into my office. That's something that I might be reflecting to them as they're describing something to me. And I say, like, that sounds like shame, or it sounds like you're really ashamed of yourself. And like, almost overwhelmingly, the reaction is like, yes, exactly, shame. But not. Not often the emotion they're naming themselves. And I think through that, like, that's where you access pain. That's where struggling or suffering is often rooted, like, in those dark corners. And for many clients, sadness might be there, but I think often, you know, there's. There's numbness or that, even apathy. There's so many protectors, I think, that come in. There's so many layers often between men and their sadness. And I, you know, I see it every day in my office, the different ways that men stop themselves from crying and the, you know, I see them swallowing their emotion. I see them aggressively drinking their water bottle. Like, I see them doing lots of things before allowing themselves to get there. So, you know, my job is not to force any sort of emotion. My job is not to get men to cry in my office. It's about helping them tap into their honest, true, authentic selves. And I think, you know, with. With patience and curiosity and compassion. If sadness is there and men can feel like trust with you and trust in their own bodies. I think a lot of men fear, like, if I, if I let that damn break, like, it's, it's, it's never, it's never going to be stopped. I think there's a fear of, like, if I tap into that, I'm, I'm never coming back from it. So I think there's a lot of, like, trust and, and like I said, you know, as a therapist, being able to build a container and reassuring my clients like, you're not, you're not leaving my office today. Like, I'm not just gonna poke around and make things a mess and then send you on your way. Like, I'm. If things get hard in here, we're gonna be sure that we pull out of that. And I help you regulate and get to a, a steady place before you go. And being able to even, like, reassure men, like, I got you, like, you know, there's a, there's a box of Kleenex on either end of my couch for a reason, and there's, there's going to be moments in here that feel uncomfortable, and that's okay. And again, like, I'm not trying to get you to cry, but I'm also completely cool with it if you do.
- [34:24]
A
It speaks again to the importance of context, that, the therapy space and, and the, the room itself and the experience of that and maybe the preamble of seeing the therapist or getting to know the therapist before you even meet them. But then once you're there, having that relational safeness, because it just takes so much courage really, to get there, to go there, to actually explore some of those bits that are below the layers. You know, the much. Especially shame and that feeling of, you know, just I'm inadequacy and inferiority and I'm just no good and I'm unlovable. You know, those are very deep and dark feelings that are very painful. And it takes a lot of courage to go there. It can be useful gently to go there and to kind of work through it. But you mentioned, I guess, shame and maybe self criticism. Tell me more about self criticism with men. How does that, how do you see that presenting there or, you know, and how do you maybe help people work with that, that tricky inner voice?
- [35:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's ever present. I, I see a lot of men using that, I would argue unsuccessfully, but using that as their, like, self motivation. Like, this is how I, this is how I get up and keep going. This is how I don't give up. Like, I, I'm Hard on myself. I kick myself like, that toug sort of approach with themselves. And, you know, I'll, I'll joke with clients when they're adamant that, like, no, this is like, I can't let this go. I would, you know, I'd get. I'd get lax. I'd settle. I wouldn't push myself harder. You know, I'll reflect to them, like, well, it seems. It seems like you're really good at the self criticism. It doesn't seem like you've been accomplishing the goals you've been set out to accomplish. Like, you're on my couch right now, buddy. And so, like, if it were working, don't you think it would have worked by now? And usually I'll get like a reluctant, like, yeah, okay. I use the, the sort of approach that I think a lot of us therapists use. And, you know, I'll. I'll ask something like, okay, so is this how you're motivating your. Your kids? Like, is this how you're teaching your kids to, like, talk to themselves and motivate themselves? No, of course not. Right? Like, well, why not? Like, you're, you're adamant that this is what works for you. If it's that successful, why wouldn't you teach it to everyone? You know? And being able to, again, shift the perspective a little bit for men to, to step back and ask, like, okay, wait, if I am holding on this tight to this strategy, and I believe that I would be lost without it, why am I so adamant that I would never teach my own kids to talk to themselves this way? And I wouldn't talk to myself, my. My kids this way to motivate them, but I think just being able to understand, right, like, we. I don't want to, I don't want to shame my clients. And, and, you know, I think incorporating humor and being able to, like, poke at some of these things is not poking at the client. It's like poking at the strategy, poking at the critic, poking at, you know, something so we can separate it from ourselves and say, like, what do we think about this? What do we want to do about it? But the reality is that so many men are suffering in silence and so many men have the. They say the most awful things to themselves and think that's just the way it is. And so as a, as a therapist, like, I want to understand that, like, you know, where. Where'd that start? Whose voice is that? How's that working? How has it served you? Because it's probably not just Been a broken coping mechanism. It's. It's served you somehow. Um, so I think being able to explore that in a really thorough way, but also being able to poke some holes in it as well by, like, using some logic. Like, I. I think, you know, using logic is everything in getting through. It's. It's much more effective to go the logical route with my clients than to. To try to just focus in on, like, well, but what does that do to your self esteem? And. And what about, you know, how you're. How you're feeling about that? Like, no, that's not gonna go anywhere. But if I ask you, like, okay, it's that effective. So you're using that strategy as a parent? No. Okay, explain that to me. Help me understand. And I think, you know, even for men, being able to recognize like, oh, wow, yeah, that. That doesn't make sense. Why am I doing it this way? Ellis, you know that that sort of curiosity, I think, is huge. Like, my. I'm often telling my clients, like, the goal here is to be more curious than critical. And I'll say, like, you're really good at critical, and you're gonna go there immediately. And my job is to be able to, like, highlight that, and we're gonna pivot a little bit. Instead of asking yourself, like, why the fuck do I do that? Ask yourself, huh? Why do I do that? Right? Like, just the tiniest little shift to be able to, like, understand that more versus just like, pound into yourself like you've always done.
- [39:44]
A
I was going to come back to the. The man in the arena quote, because in a funny sort of way, the first lines are, it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles and where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena. And. And I wondered whether that applies internally and perhaps in this. Ifs kind of, you know, model that the. The. The critic is that part of the. Of the quote, you know, that is making these comments and sort of criticizing and so on, but actually it's about the man in the arena. Does. Does that relate. Do you think so?
- [40:27]
B
Absolutely. I. I love that quote for a lot of reasons. I love that it is the first thing my clients see when they walk into my office and they're sitting waiting for me, waiting for the session to start, just staring at that quote and reading it, because I do think it highlights the strength it takes to walk into this office and how many people do not ask for help and walk into the office and the courage that takes. And also because I absolutely. It is about the parts that he is carrying with him and how self critical he can be and how much shame he carries. But like, look at, look at what you're doing. Like you are in the arena, you're doing the hard stuff. You keep coming back, you're committed. And that takes so much more strength than sitting on the sidelines and you know, and, and criticizing. So absolutely. It's the interpersonal and it's the intrapersonal. Without a doubt.
- [41:23]
A
Yes, it really is the wisdom, the strength, the courage. These are the qualities I suppose that we're bringing to the surface to sort of tackle this next challenge for people. I often try and disentangle a kind of a self hating self criticism from the sort of self improving or if you like, constructive sort of self criticism because there are things that we want to be able to, you know, reflect on and critique and improve upon and so on. How do you do that? How do you sort of navigate your way through those different forms, I guess, of self criticism with men?
- [42:05]
B
Yeah, I mean I, I love parts work for this. Ifs because it allows these, you know, somewhat similar or overlapping parts to still be distinct. And so I think that's a cool way to be able to say like, okay, well that's a, that's a different part. That, that part sounds a little bit more encouraging than this one over here. Um, so that's one way. But I also like, I, I, I really, I really do love psychoeducation. I just think like informing and like arming my clients with information and knowledge is so powerful. And so I will often, I'll have clients talking about their experiences and all, you know, I felt, I felt guilty about this or I felt awful about this. I'm a horrible person or I'm a monster. Like I shouldn't be forgiven, whatever it is. And I'll explain the difference between guilt and shame, or even the difference between guilt, shame, humiliation and embarrassment, which is, you know, often rooted in Brene Brown's work. But even being able to talk through like, let me just teach you the difference between guilt and shame because we're using these somewhat interchangeably. And one can be pretty productive and helpful, I think, and the other oftentimes is just toxic and stuck. And so I'll say, you know, guilt is this misalignment between what you're doing or what you've done and your values. Like what do you stand for in your life as a man, as a dad as a partner. And guilt helps us see, like, oh, I made a mistake. Like, I. That wasn't me. What can I learn from that? How can I grow? What do I want to do differently? And that. That is helpful. That can be helpful. And that is, I, you know, I. I messed up. I'll fix it. And shame, on the other hand, is not I messed up, but I'm messed up. And it is in some ways, right? Like, shame from an evolutionary perspective keeps us in the tribe. It keeps us, you know, on. On the right, on the. Within the bounds of, you know, the. The social norms and expectations and rules. And that's great, right? Like, we don't want to be outsiders or outliers in a community when we want to have safety and connection. That was especially helpful, you know, thousands of years ago. Today, however, shame often is something that is really toxic, keeps us stuck, gives us these absolute beliefs about ourselves and makes it seem as if it is unchangeable. Right? It's like I said, it's not I up. It is I am up. And so if that is what you are telling yourself, if that's the critic, how do you get out of that? Right? Like, that is a very absolute. That's not. I made a mistake. Let me learn from it. It is, I am unchangeable. I am unlovable. I am unworthy. So being able to help clients understand that and to see the function of these things and to be able to. If they are stuck in shame, to be able to say, like, well, did you feel guilty about that? Like, was there something there that didn't feel right? And what did you learn and how can you grow? Being able to use that as, like, a real cool opportunity and being able to challenge the function of that shame, like, how is that serving you if you're. If you're actually in therapy now because you want to grow and change, but you're. You're trapped in shame. Like, how are we going to get out of that? I mean, I think the beautiful thing about therapy is being able to talk about the shame and have that vulnerability and feel empathy from someone is really the antidote to that experience. But I think, you know, being able to, again, have that sort of information and. And approach it logically and say, all right, like, yeah, that. That sounds like that wasn't you. It sounds like you don't want to do that again and you want to be a different man than that. Like, how is that rooted in your values? Like, let's. Let's review those. Like, what Are, what are your core values now? Like, what do you, what do you hold at a high standard? And then being able to help him live from there, like to get to that place again of like honesty and authenticity and feeling like the way he's showing up and living and interacting is in alignment with his like true authentic self.
- [46:14]
A
Yes. No, I'm totally on board with that. I really love that distinction. And, and the thing that's popped in my mind is that self compassion isn't kind of bubble baths and sort of whatever self compassion is, the hard yards of moving from shame to guilt to repair and forgiveness. That is what self compassion really is. And it takes a lot of strength and courage to do all of that. And to be able to sort of present the logic there and the information and highlight the discrepancies and move towards repair and making amends or growth or change, you know, is sort of seems to be kind of the key. Well, if, if boys and men, you know, were more comfortable with compassion than, and sort of giving compassion. I mean, often men are very compassionate towards others and they often do it in very practical and sort of, you know, helpful, active kind of ways. And, but also, yeah, if they were to be more compassionate towards themselves and more open to receiving compassion as well. I mean, how, how could we get there, do you think? Like, what, what, what, what might, you know, what would a world like that look like? And how, how could we get there?
- [47:42]
B
I mean, I think if I had the answers to that, I would be doing things other than being on this podcast.
- [47:48]
A
Oh, I think you'd still be here.
- [47:52]
B
I think it'd be very busy. Yes, I, we asked the big questions.
- [47:57]
A
Here on compassion in a T shirt.
- [48:00]
B
I, my thought went to just like how we navigate the topic of masculinity right now. And I, I, I think that we, I mean, there's just, it's such a polarized world at the moment and it, you know, things that get attention even on social media where I exist are things that are often explosive or rage bait and make people angry and get these strong reactions. And so we have, you know, you see these conversations about toxic masculinity or you see these, you know, conversations about how, how, how harmful masculinity can be or you see men left out of important conversations or you know, not given sort of credit where credit is due. And to me, you know, being able to expand on what the experience of masculinity is and that masculinity exists outside of this rigid like man box that there are, it's not just about this emotional stoicism and being dominant and being the lone wolf that it is. You know, it, it can be masculine to be compassionate and it can be a form of, of healthy, authentic masculinity to love deeply and passionately and publicly. It can be masculine to do things that, you know, we may unfortunately categorize as, as feminine. I just feel like we have put such a limit on what, what masculinity is allowed to be or what, what gives man men their man card or what has it revoked. And I think women have, you know, over the years and thanks to many waves of feminism been given opportunity to be celebrated for this like, you know, gender expansive more experience. And I'm, I'm celebrated as a business owner and an entrepreneur for like leaning into my masculine and being able to be more assertive. And I can own that and celebrate that and even see that in my daughter and like celebrate that in her. And I just, I don't think we give that same permission to young boys or men to be as, as a quote unquote allowed to exist more fully and honestly or authentically to be celebrated for leaning into their like, softness and their emotions and their compassion and femininity. And so to me, like, that, that would be huge. Like more permission to be, to be dynamic humans to, to not have to exist within these rigid guidelines on what it is to be a man or, or what, what revokes your man card? Because I work with you men in my office who are, who are so sensitive and they are so emotional and they are so dynamic. And you know, many, many men don't feel like there's much permission to exist that fully even in their romantic relationships. And so I think, you know, men having more room to be in messy in that, like it's. If, if we're not teaching boys to be more emotional and expressive and name their emotions, then it's gonna be really hard for men to learn that and lean into that. So allowing them to, to stumble and, and, and to struggle with that a little bit. But giving room for men to, to exist more fully and honestly I think could go a long way.
- [51:54]
A
Well, yeah, so a wonderful answer to a big and tricky question. Before I let you go though, you're well worth following. I'm on Instagram. I don't think, I'm not on TikTok, but I think you're there as well. And you post some very thought provoking and I think you maybe even do that social media thing well where you're, you're Able to be click worthy enough, but still also be really true to the profession and true to the work and, and that sort of stuff. So. But I think you might be also. Are you about to start a podcast or something like that? Is, is there what, what's ahead for you with, with this sort of thing?
- [52:34]
B
Yeah, thank you for asking. Um, I, I am. Plans are to launch the podcast in January, February of 2026. So in the next few months, podcast is already recorded and we're just like in post production editing now. But it's in collaboration with a colleague of mine, Dr. Brendan Kwikowski Hartman. He's a sociologist in Canada and he works with boys and men. Does a lot of work in schools around healthy masculinity and emotions and focuses there a little bit more on the academic side, but does a lot of work, workshops and teaching and of course I come in as a psychologist on the clinical side of this work and the podcast is called this Triggers Me. And so we're really taking a lot of the topics that you and I have hit on today and trying to come at them as full humans, not just as academics or professionals. Bringing our, our human selves into it, trying to trigger each other a little bit. Digging into conversations that are absolutely polarized online with the hopes that we, we show people what it looks like to, to navigate uncomfortable conversations, to not avoid them. It's based on the premise that trigger warnings themselves. Unfortunately, the research on trigger warnings shows that they often have the adverse effect that they serve to increase our emotionality. When you, you receive a trigger warning, you're, you're priming yourself to react and then often an even stronger reaction to whatever content you might be warned about. And you know what would be most helpful is to arm people with coping strategies and encourage them to regulate. So the podcast is, is about leaning in to our triggers and not, not avoiding those difficult conversations. It's something that Brendan and I both do daily online. You, as far as I can tell, you can't exist as a female therapist for men on social media without strong feedback and some trolls along the way. And so I figure if I'm already triggering people by showing up and speaking to these topics we, we chatted about today, then might as well do that in a longer format.
- [54:51]
A
That sounds very logical in a way. Yeah, no, I look forward to that actually. I, I was it Brendan. I think I, I did have. I, I looked him up as well.
- [55:00]
B
Just after I, his handle is remasculine. Yeah.
- [55:03]
A
Yeah. After I saw you were collaborating, I thought, oh, well, that's interesting, but. Well, yeah. Dr. Audrey Audra Horny, thank you. Well, thank you for your work advocating for my half of humanity, if you like, or something like that. I really do appreciate the work that you're doing and the messages that you're putting out there. But also thank you for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is fun.