← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T shirt. My guest today is Michelle Becker, a licensed marriage and family therapist, international teacher, and co founder of the Wise Compassion program. Michelle has been a senior teacher of mindful self compassion and is the founder of Compassion for Couples, a groundbreaking program helping partners bring mindfulness and compassion into their relationships. She has dedicated her career to showing how compassion transforms not just us as individuals, but also the bonds we share with those who are closest to us. And so I bring you Michelle Becker. Well, Michelle Becker, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [00:59]
B
Love the name. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.
- [01:02]
A
Great, thanks. Yes, I. I've. I've realized that I'm actually not wearing a T shirt today. So normally I would have Compassion blazoned across the. The T shirt, but I'm in the office, so I have to wear a collared shirt.
- [01:13]
B
But, well, I. If I had known, I could have shown up in my T shirt. I've got plenty of Compassion ones. Do.
- [01:20]
A
Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I do. Yeah. You've been teaching compassion for many, many years now. But I wondered about starting at the beginning, actually. In particular, what first led you to bring compassion practices into the more specific context of couples and intimate relationships?
- [01:42]
B
That's a great question. Thanks for that. So actually, my first career was as a cpa. A certified public accountant. Right. So at some point I decided to change careers because I wanted to make a difference in the world. It didn't feel like I was making much of a difference. And when I thought about, like, pursuing being a therapist, I thought about my different options. And the thing that was core to me in that was relationships. Because really, as far as I'm concerned, when our relationships are good, when they're healthy, our world goes much better. You know, not just our own individual, but also sort of collectively.
- [02:21]
A
So.
- [02:23]
B
So I became a therapist, a licensed marriage and family therapist. And when I was teaching Compassion, I was teaching a co Leading a teacher training for the Mindful self compassion program. And I was sitting at a table having a meal with a bunch of people who are interested in relationships. And somebody asked me, well, Michelle, what would you do if. For couples? How would you do this differently for couples? And it just kind of flowed. I was like, oh, well, you know, in session one, I would do this, and in session two, I would do this, and, you know, so on. And I realized somebody needs to do this. Like, you know, this is the. When our relationships, we are often wounded by relationships that are not healthy. And when Our relationships are healthy. They can be very healing. Right? And when we have that kind of core of a good, healthy, solid relationship in our most intimate relationships, it ripples outward, you know, ripples outward into our workplaces. It ripples outward, you know, into with our children, our siblings, our families, you know, all the people who are important to us, the strangers on the street even, right. So really, I became. Began to really think about, seriously, somebody needs to do this. Why not me? Why? You know, so. So there we go. I took it on.
- [03:47]
A
You took it on. Actually, it's interesting you. You mentioned that, because I definitely remember in my own life where relationship difficulties arose and things changed and, and, you know, there were periods there where, you know, on my own trying to. To sort of, you know, do things and with the kids and so on and. Yeah, it was very difficult to kind of put my whole self in other things. It became very preoccupying, I guess. And whether I was at home or at work or in other situations, it was never far from my mind. And then as things changed again and moving into a more kind of close and connected and secure relationship, it does. It sort of frees you up to then really be sort of a version of yourself in the world that you can, you know, pursue your values and, and kind of your work and your family and your friends. And it, it does. There's something really important to having a kind of a. A good relationship. And it's hard for those who. Who either sort of have. Have difficulties in their relationship or struggle to find a relationship. And you can sort of imagine the. Some of what that's like.
- [05:06]
B
Absolutely. And I love the what. The way you talked about it. You know, it's. Overall, if we're having a relationship challenge, you know, an ongoing relationship challenge, it's harder to be our best selves, but also just on a day when we're having a relationship challenge because, you know, relationships go up and down. They don't.
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A
That's true.
- [05:28]
B
Stay in one place. Right. So. And. But learning how to handle those daily or weekly or monthly or whatever, those challenges that arise, learning how to handle those from a place of compassion to. To not be undone ourselves, to know that we can count on each other for support when we need, it just. It just changes everything. It really changes how we're. How well we're able to. We, you know, might be, you want to start a new business, right. But when you've got that kind of safe place to land at home, you can, you can take risks, you can kind of go out into the world and do your thing.
- [06:06]
A
So I know you bring into your approach for couples some of the three circles model from Paul Gilbert and so on. And just as you're speaking there, it just kind of obviously reminds me of the soothing affiliative system, that there's something about the safe haven, secure base of a relationship. Although then I'm suddenly thinking that we might need to bring our own sense of our individual safe haven itself and secure base to a relationship as well. And you know, so that there's. It's both end in a way, isn't it? The relationship can offer some of that. And at the same time we, we bring to that, that relationship a sort of a. You know, we offer that relationship something of our own as well.
- [06:57]
B
You're right. You're absolutely right. And I use that three circles model quite a lot. And I think when we're talking about compassion in relationships, we're really talking about sort of three different targets. You know, we're talking about compassion for myself, compassion for my partner, but then also compassion for the relationship. Like the relationship is its own entity that needs care and feeding.
- [07:21]
A
No, yeah, yeah, no. I love that idea that there's kind of a third party involved and we're wanting to kind of bring compassion and nurturing and strength and various other things to that third party as well. So when you were sitting there having that meal and someone asked you what would you do with couples, these sessions sound like they popped to mind. So what is the sequence of things that you might work through with with couples?
- [07:52]
B
The sequence of things? You know, first we train a little bit in self compassion because as you, as you talked about, we need to be able to regulate our own emotions so that we can show up in the relationship from the care system from a better place, if that makes sense. So we really. And there's mindfulness. You know, we use the three components of self compassion, mindfulness, common humanity and kindness. Right. And we train in each of those things pretty much in that order. But we also train self compassion. And then we look at how using, utilizing self compassion, what we learn there, we turn, we turn that outward. I also like and have trained in and teaching program compassion cultivation training. Right. And so it has common humanity. He talks in, you know, in common humanity and like mindful self compassion. We talk about it as. I'm not alone. This is part of being a human. All humans suffer from these kinds of things. In compassion cultivation training, we would say, just like me, just like me. This person doesn't always put their best Foot forward, just like me, my partner. When we start with that self compassion training and we start to see our own patterns where we are in those three circles and how we move about in that, in the threat defense system, the care system, the drive system, and we start to understand why and how we do that and how to move ourselves into the care system, then we can start to see our partners through that lens, right? And so when we start to understand, and this is like, this is one of the most profound shifts in this program, one of the most profound shifts is that when we understand that when we get caught in whatever unskillful behavior we get caught in, because we all have them, right? We all have a threat defense system, which leads us sometimes to, you know, that fight flight. Fight flight. I'm all tongue tied at the moment. Fight flight, freeze system, right?
- [09:57]
A
Yes.
- [09:58]
B
So what I have found is that I was curious what happens in relationships when we're in these systems. So fight turns into critic, you know, fighting, attacking, defending, flight turns into withdrawing, Freeze turns into a couple different things, but one of them is placating, you know, and all of them underneath are safety seeking. You know, we're trying to keep ourselves or our partners safe, even though none of those actually work in relationships. For our physical health, yes, for our physical survival, yes. But for relationships, no, those tend, those behaviors tend to make it worse. So when we begin to see that, like if I get caught in criticizing, for example, I'm not criticizing because I don't love my partner or they don't matter to me or whatever. I'm criticizing because I feel unsafe, I'm in my threat defense system or if I withdraw, I'm really more of a withdrawer than a criticizer. It's again, it's designed for safety, to keep myself safe or to keep my partner safe or to keep the relationship safe, right? So when I start to understand that through self compassion, through understanding myself, that these things aren't a reflection of my partner, they're just a reflection of the state I'm in, the system I'm in, then just like me comes in. And then I see when my partner does the thing that's unskillful, that's harmful, that I don't like at all. I have a good partner, by the way. Don't mean to disparage them in any way, but when my partner does something like that, it's not about whether or not they love me. We tend to do that, right? Oh, I didn't matter to you, you didn't love me? Enough, you know, whatever. No, it's not about that. Just like it wasn't about that for me when I was unskillful. It was simply that my partner was caught in their threat defense system. And that softens the heart. It really softens everything. So now instead of taking it personally, it's not about me. And I can see my partner's in distress and I feel more inclined to lean in and to see could I, could I offer some compassion in some way?
- [12:12]
A
Yes, there's that sort of self mentalizing or sort of awareness of one's own mind and how my threat system is activated. I'm in that sort of fight, flight, freeze or appease, placate kind of mode. And then there's kind of mentalizing one's partner as well and recognizing that actually yeah, they're just like me. They go through these same things. They threat system is a bit activated at the moment as well. And yeah, through that kind of process, I guess it's sort of empathizing and understanding and bringing that wisdom and awareness really to oneself and the other and the relationship.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah. And also unhooking. Unhooking that my partner is a separate whole person and everything they do is not a reflection of me. They stand alone. Right. So they're in their threat defense system. It doesn't, it's not necessarily a reflection of me. Maybe they had a really horrible day at work and they're really distressed, you know what I mean? And just not very skillful. So that unhooking from that personalizing really changes everything when we start to see our partners as their own, as just a person who sometimes gets caught in things the way we do.
- [13:31]
A
And I suppose the real magic too, or the sort of the special ingredient or something is that in the program, they're doing it together. So the couple might both be reflecting on themselves and their threat system activation and understanding the other and their threat system activation. And so there's a reciprocal kind of process going on there as well.
- [13:56]
B
Very much. And then you start to see the relational bit. You start to see the relational pattern, how, you know, when I'm distressed and I do this, my partner catches the distress and they do that which distresses me further. And then, you know, you start to see how we kind of feed off of each other, that we sort of catch these, the threat defense system from each other. That's why unlooking is really important because we don't have to catch it from each other. We can say, oh, you're caught in that and we can stay in our care system.
- [14:27]
A
And it makes sense, doesn't it? Because we really, in some ways, behind all of that is just we want to be loved, and we want to feel safe and secure and loved, and the other person's important to us, and we want to be important to them. And actually, lots of the drivers behind all of that are really sort of very positive things in terms of, you know, love and care and so on. And then in comes this sense of. Of threat to some of that. And. And yeah, we personalize.
- [15:01]
B
Exactly. Exactly. Well said.
- [15:04]
A
The. The. Were there any particular real aha. Moments along the way where. Where you sort of, you know, something happened and you thought, wow, this. This can really make a difference for couples and partners?
- [15:18]
B
There have been a few of them. I remember the very first program I taught, the very first Compassion for Couples program that I taught. It was a group of mostly hetero couples. This particular group, no need for the, you know, works for whichever direction people want. But anyway, this particular group is mostly heterocouples. And I do this program or do this exercise to help people discover how they treat them, how they treat a friend, naturally, how they treat themselves. And then I add on, how do you treat your partner? So it's just a reflection, you know, when you're distressed, you know, when your friend is distressed, how do you naturally treat them? You know, what words do you say? What tone do you use? Is there any physical gesture? You know, when you yourself are distressed, you know, same thing. What do you. What do you say to yourself? What words do you use? What tone? You know, any physical gesture? And then when your partner is distressed for some reason, you know, what do you do with them, what words you use? And I remember that woman after woman after woman raised their hand and spoke up. Spoke up. And they were horrified. They were horrified because they had just discovered how harsh they were on their partners.
- [16:41]
A
Oh.
- [16:43]
B
And. And the men, their partners just sat back and went like. You could see their shoulders drop, their face relax. I mean, this was the very first session of the very first program. And you could see all their concern fall away because it was sort. And the hope arising because it was like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even have to say anything. And look, my partner is starting to recognize that they can be unskillful sometimes. And they're motivated. They're horrified by it, and they're motivated to learn to be kinder toward me, to speak with more kindness. That was an aha moment. And as you said, that was just, you Know, we were just looking at the starting point that was before we were teaching any skills. But just looking at where are we starting from so that people could start to think about, well, which direction did they want to focus on the most, you know, what was most important for them?
- [17:39]
A
It actually speaks to in msc how we might think about how we would treat a friend. And the fact that actually that's quite clever wording because we might not come up with the same answer if we think about how we might treat our partner. Because in actual fact, sometimes, sometimes we can be very harsh and critical of ourselves. I mean, the things that we say to ourselves, we would never say to a friend, you know, if we were wanting to be supportive or helpful in that sense. But sometimes, yes, the things that we say to our partner, we also wouldn't really say to a friend. And it's a little bit of a. Yes, it's sort of a bit of a gut punch, isn't it, to stop and reflect on that, to do so with that sense of, you know, that's probably coming from threat system activation. So I can sort of become aware and understand that and so on. But the initial realization is, yeah, it's very, very thought provoking for us.
- [18:49]
B
It is. And I think it's an important point that you just made that it's coming from threat system activation. And, you know, if a friend is in distress. Yeah, it activates our system potentially. Right. But not as much as when we ourselves are in distress and not as much as when that person at the center of our lives is in distress. Then, I mean, the threat system is just going wild because, like, I can't lose this person that's at the center of my life. Right. So it kind of makes sense why we would, you know, be more activated and potentially less skillful in these relationships that are more important to us. Even though it seems, you know, counterintuitive.
- [19:31]
A
Yes. We've just got more skin in the game, I suppose, with those relationships. And there's more at stake. And it does threaten our sense of belonging and the security that comes along with that. And the what ifs kick in and the personalizing kicks in. And so it's interesting to think, how might I treat my partner like I might treat a friend actually becomes the. I just had a sudden thought too, because we've been talking about the role of threat system a bit there. And when I'm in kind of fight flight, freeze appease mode, or when my partner's in fight flight, freeze appease mode and being able to Bring awareness to that and sort of soften and so on. What do you notice about drive system? Does drive system begin to, you know, kind of create things in our relationships as well in, in ways that we need to think about or work. Work on?
- [20:35]
B
Very much so. That's an interesting part. So, you know, as, as Paul Gilbert talks about in his systems, that they're meant to be worked in a particular order, right? That they're meant to be worked. When we get caught in threat defense, which, you know, no fault of our own, we're humans, this happens that we're meant. We're meant to go to the care system where we, you know, feel safe and content, and from there we can go to the drive system and figure out how to get things done. But as, as Paul Gilbert points out, that's not the way we usually do it. We. We feel the threat defense system and we think, this is awful. I don't want this. How do I get out of it? And we go into the. The drive system to try to figure out how to fix it, right? And we just sort of loop around here. Turns out we do that in our relationships also. So when I was saying before, I was looking at, you know, what are the, the behaviors that come. The relational behaviors when we're in them, when we're in the drive system, that's not coming from the care system, that's coming directly from the threat defense system. It turns into what I think of as three things. Fixing. Well, let me tell you how to solve your problem, which I don't know about you, but when I'm having a problem, generally I want to be heard. I want to be soothed, I want to be comforted. I don't want to be told how to solve my problem. I don't want to jump straight to that. Right. Controlling, you know, where it's sort of like, okay, there's a problem. I see there's a problem. Let me take over. I'll. I'll just take over. And that doesn't feel so good either because it's sort of infantilizing for us. It says it's in. Maybe unintentionally, it sends the message that I don't think you can handle this. Right. So fixing, controlling, and then criticizing is the other one. Now that's a tricky one because we don't think we're criticizing. We think we're helping them improve. Right? So maybe my partner is going for a job interview and puts on an outfit that's, you know, and I might say to them, oh, you know, those pants and that, that shirt now that's. That that doesn't. So I think I'm helping. Right. But my partner is going to feel criticized that like you don't think I can pick out my clothes. You're criticizing what I chose. Right. So those are. So typically we do very much just, just like intrapersonally, interpersonally, we do tend to go into that, that drive system and try to get out of the whatever pain has arisen rather than moving into leaning. And I think of that as resistance, really. Right. So this pain, something painful has arisen, some threat has arisen and we don't want, we don't want it so we want to get rid of it. Resistance, we move into the drive system to get out of it doesn't work very well. We need to move into it, into the care system, hold it either hold it ourselves, hold it together. Then when we're content, safe, connected, now we can actually look at, okay, what do I want to do about this problem? We can move into the drive system and solve our problems, but it's harder to solve our problems when our hair's on fire. You know.
- [23:47]
A
I just jotted those three down because I wanted to sort of make sure I could check in with you about them because yes, that's really, really helpful to think about a kind of a threat based drive type of situation and sort of leaping first and foremost into fixing and I suspect where the women in that first group had a realization around the criticism, I can only imagine the men in that group had a realization around how they always just try to fix everything. And in a way that's also not real helpful as well. I think I saw a meme on Instagram or something, so it must be true, which was something like, you know, unsolicited advice is a form of criticism too in a way because it's actually assuming that the person doesn't know or you know, that I know best or that sort of thing. And so yeah, that kind of urge to fix or the controlling. And yes, you can imagine that when the drive system, sorry, the threat system is activated, we want to try to get some sort of control back and so we try to control this other person. And I don't know, maybe even a coercive control sort of scenario is a little bit that. It's obviously a more extreme version of it and very problematic. But it's a kind of a threat based drive to, to control. And then criticizing that might even be well intended, but is still criticism. And then of course we have the much. Sometimes the criticism can become very hostile and harsh and so on. But yeah, that's useful. There's sort of three ways that this threat based drive might happen.
- [25:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah, very much. And it is. You are right that those who have been socialized male have really been socialized to fix, fix, fix, fix, fix. However, there's a surprising number of us women who are also fixers. Right. Or even think about the, you know, parenting. Right. How many people get into this role where the mom is doing more of the. Than the. Of the parenting and things than the. Than the dad and the dad, every time he tries to do something, he doesn't do it quite right. So the mom takes over, she takes control again. Right, I see where you know, how does the mom learn to do it? By failing. You know, we fail sometimes. The dad has got to fail sometimes too. Right. So you know, there needs to be room for that as well. So.
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A
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a very useful model, isn't it? The, the three circles model that it's, it's obviously the brain might be more than three circles in a way and yet those three circles really shed light on. On a lot of. A lot of stuff. The other thought I had and I wonder about sometimes when I work with couples, I suppose the one way to put it is that there's a sort of a difference in drive system activation in other ways maybe as well. And I guess the thing that comes to mind is sexual intimacy and how there can sometimes be differences there. And I guess that sort of maybe arising from. From drive system as well. But I suppose that it, maybe it softens it a little bit there too when, when one person is wanting more of that and the other person isn't feeling that that's what they, they're wanting. But you know, perhaps there's sort of wisdom that comes from the three circles model there too to understand each other and the differences.
- [27:31]
B
You know what? I love that you're saying that. I really love that you're saying that and I, yeah, I think you're right about that. So I, I tend to find. And maybe, you know, maybe you do too. I don. But there, there typically is one partner that feels like I want to feel connected. Like in other words, I need the care system and then I want to be intimate and there's a partner who's like the way to the care system is to become intimate, right?
- [28:00]
A
Yes.
- [28:00]
B
So. And that's maybe the drive. I haven't really thought about it in terms of the, you know, the three systems. But maybe that is like, there's some partners want to go drive into care, like, you know, let's have sex. And then I'll feel connected. And then the other part, but the other partner's like, no, I gotta feel connected. And then.
- [28:18]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:19]
B
That you're kind of putting those two together.
- [28:21]
A
Yeah, no, I, I. The way that you've talked about sort of clockwise versus anti clockwise, you know, around the circles, I think that's actually not something that I had literally thought of either. But I think that is actually a really important thing to consider and a situation that couples can find themselves in. You know, sort of wanting to feel close and connected for sexual intimacy versus sexual intimacy, helping us to feel close and connected. I reckon I see that a lot.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:55]
A
One of the really powerful aspects of your work is the dyadic practices, which I think is really important. So the exercises couples might, might do to get together, what are some examples there of those practices and how does that open things up for couples and partners?
- [29:16]
B
Yeah, so there's the mentalizing that you're talking about, and then there's the actual. How do we experience things? So one of the dyadic things that we do early on just to help uncover what is our own go to in terms of which system we like to be in is. It's a little hard to illustrate, but I have couples face. Face each other and to kind of, you know, mirror. It's a one person's right hand, the other person's left hand, and to bring them together, right. And then to bring them together focusing on their own hand, and then to bring them again together, focusing on their partner's hand. And then just to notice what it feels like to be connected, just to. Just to be connected. And then I'll invite one partner to pull their hand away quickly. And this is, you know, it's all done with a chance for people to. It's all done in silence. And people get to like, pause and land in their experience. What was that like to be the one to pull your hand away? What was that like to be left? Which gives us the. It gives us the experience of withdrawal, what it feels like to withdraw, what it feels like to be on the other side of withdrawal. And, you know, then we. The other part gets a turn at that too. And then I have them, you know, coming back with their hands together and one partner straightening their arm and pushing into their partner's hand. And that gives us a chance to really have a felt sense of what it feels like to be pursued. Right. So, and to, to do the pursuing and also to be pursued. And then I invite and then, and then to kind of dance together that they can be touching hands or not, but to kind of move the hands around without talking to each other, just to kind of be tuned in to each other and move around a little bit. And that's a really powerful exercise. So I invite people to see which felt most familiar to them. So if you're a withdrawer, the pulling your hand away is going to feel most familiar. And then to look at what it felt like to be on the receiving end of that when your partner pulled their hand away from you. And most people, I mean, that's a super powerful exercise for most people. When their partner pulls their hand away, their stomach drops. It's just like, oh, it, it just feels awful. Right. And the same thing with pursuing. And so we start to have a felt sense. Couples start to have a felt sense of not only their own pattern, but what it feels like to be on the other side of that pattern, which sensitizes. So I've had couples I've run into years later after doing the program and I've said, like, you know, what, what are you, you know, what are you still using? What are you? And they'll say things like, you know, we don't have to talk, I'll just go. And my partner knows, oh, I, I, you know, you, I just felt abandoned here. Right. And, and moves in. So that's one of the dyadic. Dyadic exercises.
- [32:18]
A
Yeah.
- [32:19]
B
That's kind of been pretty powerful. Another one that I really love is, is what we call, well, it's loving kindness practice. So. And we do that a few different ways. Loving kindness practice. There are a few different things with that, but one of them is actually what you would think of in loving kindness practice, where couples craft their own words, self compassion words and words to their partner. And then they practice offering each other those wishes and oh my gosh, is that powerful. Really, really powerful. So I remember being teaching this program with Chris Germer and I remember we're sitting in a room with these couples and they're whispering their loving kindness phrases to each other, taking turns, you know, whispering to each other. And I remember Chris turning to me and saying, this is the real making love, you know, because that's what was happening in the room. Love is just flowing, right? But you know, part of what's really important in this program, as in every program, is customizing. So people come in different different states in different ways, right? And not everybody. Some people are like, oh, my God, this is like a drop of water in the desert. I've been waiting to hear this from you for so long. Bring it on. You know? And other people are like, that is way too much for me right away, you know, way too much. I can't. So they customize it. Maybe it's a touch instead of words. Maybe it's. They know their partner saying the words silently in their own head, but they don't want to hear them out loud or. One of the things that my partner and I like to do, and I don't have any handy here, I don't think, is we take stones and write a word on the stone, which is a. Which is a wish, right? And. And then surreptitiously, we like to. Like, if we're traveling, maybe I'll sneak a stone into their luggage, right? Or maybe under their pillow at night or something like that, which is a lot more playful. One couple, the wife. It was a heterocouple again. The wife took out a Sharpie and wrote on the husband's golf balls, unbeknownst to him. And so he. He's out with his buddy playing golf, and he pulls out his golf ball to. And there's a. There's a wish on it, right? And you know, the part.
- [34:49]
A
The.
- [34:49]
B
The golf buddy was, like, really envious. Like, what the heck? You know, because every time we pull out a ball, here's another kind loving kindness wish. So those are some of the. Some of the different practices and some of the ways to kind of customize and make them your own. But there's great value. We know we love each other, but do we say it, you know, do we say it in the way that our partner can actually take it in and hear it?
- [35:13]
A
Finally, a good reason to hit your ball into the. Into the water because you get to pull out another one with a. With another wish. The thing I love about the especially. Well, the first one that you mentioned there, it's. It's sort of part metaphor and part embodiment. You know, in a way, the metaphor is sort of. It's. Metaphorically, this is what is happening between us. And we're sort of demonstrating that with. With our hands and with touch and so on. And we can take that metaphor with us, and it becomes a little signal we can use, too, at different times when one or other of us is feeling something, but it's also just so embodied, like they're feeling it, too, in the moment. There's that felt sense and the stomach drops as the person pulls the hand away and creates a lot of that real mentalizing of what that might be like for the other person and the loving kindness as well. I mean, Chris. Yes, it's such a poetic but kind of real thought, isn't it, that that's the real lovemaking? He said, I think. And that's. I was wondering whether how that literally looked. The couple are potentially sitting opposite each other, may have their eyes closed, one person may open their eyes, but it's customizable. You can do what feels comfortable, I guess, and safe.
- [36:47]
B
This is part of the customizing of it. So when we teach it in the program the first time that we, we kind of do. I don't know if you've ever been part of an MBSR class where you do the coming out of silence and you know, you sit shoulder to shoulder facing opposite directions, and then you take turns just whispering into the other person's ear. We want people to have their, their privacy with this, right. And so we invite them to practice it that way the first time, you know, when they're all in a group together, in a class together. But then they find their own way of doing it, right? So whether it's laying in each other's laps, whether it's, you know, it first thing in the morning cuddling or right before bed going to sleep cuddling, no, they, they find their way with it. And that's part of the, part that's part of the program that's is experiment, customize. There's not the way to do it. Find your way to do it, you know, find your way to do the things that work for you.
- [37:50]
A
You can sort of, just as you're talking there, you can feel it, can't you? I mean, that idea of, you know, having a little physical affection and cuddle before sleep and offering loving kindness phrases and wishes and well wishes to your partner, I mean, it feels like it would just be very, very powerful. You do talk about the tricky side of it too, the tricky side of compassion and how it can be maybe difficult to give, but also especially difficult to receive care from, from the partner. What do you, what, what, what do you think there in terms of why is receiving compassion kind of even in that very intimate relationship so hard?
- [38:34]
B
Yeah, it's. It's really our experiences in life, you know, so we talk about neurons that fire together, wire together. If, if every time I see red, I get hit, then, you know, that wires together. Now I only have to see red. To feel like I'm getting hit.
- [38:50]
A
Right.
- [38:51]
B
So when we are little and we need compassion, as all beings do, we fall down and skin our knee or something, you know, we go toddling off to mom or dad or whoever our caregiver is and looking for compassion. And we. And we get. You want to cry? I'll give you something to cry about. Whack or. Or there's nobody there because, you know, mom's working three jobs or is depressed or is, you know, drinking or whatever. Right. Those are painful outcomes. All of those are painful outcomes that come from the urge for compassion. So in those cases, that desire for compassion wires together with pain and where we then become afraid of receiving compassion. And, you know, as a therapist, early on, I can remember particular patients especially that would say something, tell me some. Something that was painful for them, and I would. Even just the slightest thing, even if I just went, oh. And they would say, stop that. And they were right. Luckily, I listened to them and, you know, would reign it in. Compassion flows easily, so it's not that easy to rein it in, but I would rein it in. And what I'm happy to say is that every single one of them eventually were able to rewire so that they desired compassion and they could soak it in. But the trick is that we have to think about what's actually compassionate. So I don't want to offer a dose that's so big that is going to distress my partner. Right. You think about it as if you're depressed and you go see your doctor and they put you on an antidepressant. They don't start you with the effective dose. They start you with the dose your body can tolerate. And then over time, they gradually increase the dose until the effective dose. Same thing with receiving compassion from each other. We don't start at what we think it should be. We tune into the other person and we start at whatever level they actually can tolerate what actually feels good to them. And then over time, they can tolerate the capacity to tolerate. Receiving grows and grows and grows until we can soak it up.
- [41:09]
A
Yes. Yeah. The. What fires together? Why is together? It's sort of really kind of classical conditioning, in a way, isn't it, that we. Certain things get paired together. And when care gets paired with threat system activation, then we have these really powerful reluctances around someone, you know, being caring or compassionate towards us. And so therefore, a kind of a. It's sort of a graduated exposure or desensitization or just being aware that we really, really want to offer compassion to our partner. It's just that we need to also, you know, offer it in a way that can feel still comfortable and safe and gradually build it from there. And I suppose the other thing too, might be that sometimes our partner is offering compassion to us. We're not necessarily fearful of it, but nor is it quite what we need, I suppose, you know, like, what is it that I really need from my partner? Or, you know, what would be most helpful and maybe how do I communicate that as well? Is that another block sometimes that can.
- [42:18]
B
Arise that what we're needing is not compassion?
- [42:24]
A
Know that what we're needing is compassion, but maybe a different sort of compassion. So, for example, our partner might be very emotion focused in what they're offering. And actually we do want some solutions to this problem, and that would be what would be more helpful. Compassion in that instance, kind of thing. I think that's. That makes sense.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah, no, it does make a lot of sense. And actually you're onto something right there. I think so. Part of the program is figuring out what we actually need, what comforts and soothes us when we're distressed in some way and communicating with each other. Because we tend to offer each other. We tend to offer our partners what it is that comforts and soothes us, but they may be wired differently. So, for example, for me, if I'm distressed, I don't really. I don't want touch. That's not where I want to go. I want to be heard. I want words, you know, I want to be heard. I want to. Then, okay, now I feel better. Now we can touch. Right? My partner does not. Last thing my partner wants is words. Right?
- [43:29]
A
Okay.
- [43:30]
B
Touch is it right? And so if we have touch, then maybe we can talk about it afterward, you know, maybe. Yeah. But though it's really not skillful. So we have to have those conversations with each other, and we have to remember that, wait a minute, my partner's distressed. Don't go to my go to. My go to would be. I would offer words. That's not what my partner wants. My partner actually wants touch. So. And it's not just words or touch or solutions. It's, you know, one couple I work with, worked with, I remember I've explored this with so many different couples, helped them explore it with each other. Rather.
- [44:09]
A
The.
- [44:10]
B
The wife said, I just want to go for a walk together. I don't want to talk, I don't want to touch. I just want to go for a walk together. Like, I want to just be active and know you're by my side sometimes. It's just, I want you to stand for many people, it's. I just want you to stand next to me. Don't do anything else, just stand next to me. So I know you're here.
- [44:31]
A
It just reminds.
- [44:33]
B
You were speaking about it.
- [44:35]
A
That's exactly it. Yes. Yes. And it just reminds me of the, the third of the three elements of the self compassion definition, which is kind of kindness and self kindness. And, and the question there for self compassion is what is it that I really need right now? And what is it that would be most helpful sort of a thing? And it's a very similar question that we might reflect on in terms of our partner. What is it that they really need right now? What is it that will be most helpful for them? Given what I know of them and how I know them to be, what is it that might be most helpful? Maybe I need to ask or whatever. But then there's also the other person who is able to ask for what they need. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's sort of. Well, in some ways it's, it's a, a very hopeful thing because if we ask or get told, then we can be more effective with it, you know, and so it's a, it's a good thing in a way.
- [45:39]
B
It's a, it's a great thing. It's a great thing. You know, you're reminding me of like, you know, if I have computer issues, my partner's really good at that, much better than I am. I'm not bad, but I'm not great either. Right.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah.
- [45:52]
B
And I don't want my partner to come in and say, oh, that's so frustrating, isn't it? No, not in those times. I want partner to say, well, put your cursor here and try that.
- [46:03]
A
You know, switch it off and back on again. No, yeah, exactly.
- [46:07]
B
You know what, whatever the thing is, right. So, yeah, there needs to be a little bit of flexibility, a little bit of discernment, a little bit of a pause to really actually consider, well, what is kind here, what is compassionate here? Or even the question, how can I help you? What do you want? Or the preface, many people have learned now to say to their partner, I've had a really terrible day at work and I just want you to listen. Please don't offer me solutions. I just want you to listen. You know.
- [46:42]
A
You'Ve sort of, you mentioned or dotted the conversation with little examples there of people, I suppose, but I was going to ask you just before we finish up, what's been an example maybe of a couple that. It kind of really illustrates that that shift that can. Compassion can bring to a relationship.
- [47:04]
B
So I think about this couple, which I have in my book, Sam, and they're called Susie and Sam in my book. And I had been working with them in couples therapy for a while, and the relationship was really not in a good place. And so one day I get a call from Susie, and she says the biopsy was positive. I have cancer. And. And you're the first person that I've told. And knowing Susie and knowing what she needed, you know, I just was with her with it. I helped her hold that, that diagnosis. And then a couple days later, they came in for their scheduled couples therapy session, and Sam was pretty furious that they weren't the first person that Susie told. Really felt insulted, really activated the threat defense system. And Susie went on to say that, yeah, as soon as I did tell you, you went into fix it mode, or you. You shouldn't say fix it mode. She said, as soon as I did tell you, you got on the. Got out the pathology reports. You did research on what kind of cancer I had, who should treat it. You told me, oh, it's.
- [48:18]
A
It's.
- [48:18]
B
It's really a treatable cancer. Don't worry about it. And that isn't what I wanted at all. You know, Sam, do you think maybe you went into fix it mode? Because we had talked about these systems and Sam said, oh. And I said, well, you know, what do you think led you to go into fix it mode? And Sam said, oh, my God, I just makes me a little teary. Was. I'm talking about, I just can't afford to lose her. You know, I. I recently lost another family member, and it's just terrifies me to think about losing her. So, you know, of course that's why I dove into finding the solution. Finding the right, you know, finding the solution. And that bit of it where Sam landed in their feelings, their vulnerable feelings about losing Susie opened the door for Susie. And then Susie could start talking about. Start talking about her fears. You know, her fears of dying, her fears of becoming a burden, her fears of being broken and discarded by Sam. Like, if I. If I don't heal from this, if I'm a burden, are you going to leave me? And then, so that, you know, Sam being able to move out of that first moment led to Susie being able to do it and in their care system. Right. So Sam is listening and comforting and reassuring to Susie. Oh, My God, I won't leave you. I won't abandon you. I won't. Right. See them kind of melting and coming closer because safety has been restored. There's still cancer. There's still a treatment ahead. Right. But neither of them are alone in it anymore. Each of them are holding each other's fears. And. Yeah. And so there was just this really profound shift away from the battling driven by the threat defense system and toward. Okay, now we're a team. We're in the care system. There's room for all of our experience, including our fears, and now we can figure out how to move forward together. Yeah.
- [50:27]
A
Really? Yes. Very, very powerful example. Thank you. And it just shows the, you know, just the strength and courage and wisdom and, you know, it, it takes a lot, doesn't it, to be able to, especially in a moment like that where, you know, the, just the threat system is, is, you know, over the top, you know, to, and, and, and yet the, the, the strength and courage to still be able to step forward into that caring motivation and, and be helpful.
- [51:02]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, those, that strength and courage comes from little things over and over and over again. You know, the more it doesn't. We don't have to dive into the most difficult thing right away, but, you know, we've been working on this, fixing and not fixing and. Right. Seeing each other, being able to hold it. So the, the little practices over and over again build that strength and that courage.
- [51:28]
A
Wonderful stuff. Well, I will put a link to your book as well in the description and so on, but yeah. Michelle Becker, thank you. Well, thank you very much for all of the work you've done. And I actually had quite a few really useful insights today, so I appreciate that in terms of taking it to my own work. But yeah, also thank you for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.
- [51:54]
B
All right, thank you, Stan, for having me. Really a pleasure to be with you. And, and I got insight too. Very good. Thanks so much.