← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt, where we explore the science and practice of compassion and how it can truly transform lives. Today, we're diving into the world of internal family systems, or ifs, which is a model that sees our inner world as being made up of many different parts, each with their own story, emotion, and intention, and guided by a compassionate self at the core. My guest today is Megan Baez, a psychotherapist based in Sydney, Australia, and author of the recent paper exploring the evidence for Internal Family Systems Therapy, a scoping review of current research gaps and future directions, published in the journal Clinical Psychologist. It's an open access paper, so you can read it via the link in the description below. Megan's work is the first comprehensive synthesis of the IFS research and maps out what we know and also where we might need to go next. Together, we'll explore the theoretical foundations of ifs, the role of the self, and how compassion weaves through the model to promote healing and integration. And so I bring you Meagan Buys. All right. Well, Megan buys. Welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
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B
Hi. I love that you're wearing the Compassion literally in a T shirt.
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A
It's on the T shirt. It's on the T shirt. So just to get right into it, I mean, what first drew you to explore internal family systems? Ifs, I guess, as a. As a focus of both practice and research. You've written this wonderful paper in Clinical Psychologist Joe Journal, but.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Was there something about the model or something you were seeing in your own practice? What made this synthesis sort of feel needed for you?
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B
Yeah, well, I do want to start, actually, and I was thinking about this to just the fact that there is a very nervous part of me in the room with us just walking them in them in and understanding that they probably have some imposter syndrome, being here and doing this podcast. So, yeah, just wanted to introduce them to us and make them feel a little bit more seen.
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A
And that part is most welcome.
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B
Thank you.
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A
I think, is the idea. Yeah. And actually, I have a. Just while we're doing this, if you don't mind, I have a slightly jittery sort of upregulated one as well, because some of the tech wasn't working before we got started, so there's definitely a part of me that's just hovering there too, kind of in anticipation. So. Yeah.
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B
All right. They can sit with each other.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How do I find. How did I find ifs? I was 18. I'm 28 now, so. 10 years ago, I actually dropped out of high school. Had a lot of anxiety happening and a lot of panic attacks. And I made the decision to leave after a lot of fighting with my mum about it. And at the time, I wasn't seeing any type of counselor or psychologist or therapist or any type of support in that way at all. Even though I really think that I should have been, I really wish that I had been. But what I was doing was watching a lot of YouTube and I found this YouTuber named Connor McMillan, who is American, I think he now lives in Austin in Texas. And he did YouTube videos about ifs. And that was the first time I'd ever heard about something like this before. I was aware during that time that for me, I could really separate this Megan and this anxious part of me that was happening. They felt really separate. And this almost gave a really nice language to put that in that understanding that I had of myself. So I kept watching his YouTube videos and I had. I ended up traveling overseas to Amsterdam. And I remember being over there and having this new sort of experience of life and life without a feeling of anxiety or feeling of having panic attacks and all that goes along with that. And whilst I was over there, I ended up having this dream of this really calm, compassionate presence coming in. And as soon as I did that, I remembered one of Connor's videos about the self, and I was like, wow, okay. I feel like I've had some type of relationship with that more clearly, like. Like literally, visually. And from there I just got more and more into it. Yeah, that was the beginning ago. Hadn't did a long journey to come back to it now, but yeah, yes.
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A
I. I can imagine. But there's something. There's something that almost feels familiar when you come in, when you went. Came into contact with it. And it is sort of like that, isn't it? Because it's. It. It's sort of in our language when we say, you know, there's really a part of me that feels really anxious about this or. But then there's another part of me that feels something else. And so there was something there that felt familiar and kind of, you know, really face valid about this idea of, of working with different parts. And then, then that piece of, you know, the actual. The self, I guess, with the capital S. And you. You use the word compassion in there. It's, it's. It's sort of like that, isn't it? The self is observing, wise, compassionate, calm, calming part of ourselves.
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B
Yeah. When I think of myself, when I feel into myself. She feels like she can just hold it all with no problem, with no worry or confusion or doubt or. She can just hold it all. Even the most intense experiences. That's. Yeah. To me that what, that's what that feels like.
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A
Can hold it all.
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B
Yeah.
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A
With strength and calmness and wisdom.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
What did happen next then for you? It was, as you say, there's been a journey since. I mean, you became gradually a psychotherapist. And you know, what does this internal multiplicity and working with parts, I mean, what does that add to psychotherapy or. Or give to the psychotherapeutic relationship?
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B
Yeah.
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A
I.
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B
Ended up finding a therapist that used ifs. I don't know if it was formally ifs. It was definitely some type of parts work that she did maybe five, six years ago. And I found that life changing. At the time I was actually working for a psychology clinic, all CBT and DBT based. There wasn't anyone there that did anything outside of those things. There was one amazing woman that, that used schema therapy. But I was absorbed in that world from a professional perspective as it being my workplace and the people that I was with all the time and the conversations that I was having. But I was also doing my own work with this therapist separately. And I didn't know that time that I had wanted to go into this field of work. I don't actually know what I was thinking at that point in time, but slowly things just sort of fell into place when I re. And I realized that actually this is something that I love. This is something that is so meaningful to me and I feel like I've had firsthand benefit from that. I would love to pursue it further. And so I decided to do my masters of counseling and psychotherapy and the same type of thing with the, with the psychology workplace. There was no ifs in that course at all. An amazing course. It was incredible. The teachers were incredible, the coordinator was incredibly incredible, but no ifs. And so I sort of like wiggled it in there in the assessments that I could write and yeah. What I could do and what I could learn in the way that I. In the way that I could during that course to sort of grasp more of it whilst saving my money to do a, like doing the registration, the accreditation training. Yeah. And. But yeah, all throughout that time, those two years when I was doing that, I felt like, gosh, this, it's so missing. Like we do literally everything else under the sun. We do gestalt therapy, we learn solutions, focused therapy, narrative therapy, family Therapy, all the types of family systems therapy, and yet no internal family systems. And I kept wondering like why that was. Because it was such a beautiful modality and it was so popular at the time and still is, just gets more and more popular for a reason. And I just want to go on a little tangent here just as how I places together, if that's okay. Yeah, I then after my master's finished, I decided to pursue a PhD and I was doing that on premenstrual dysphoric disorder. So women's mental health, specifically surrounding the different phases of the menstrual cycle. And I knew that I wanted to incorporate some type of therapy program for that and conduct it and evaluate it. But I also knew I really wanted this to be co designed with the community and specifically with and for the people that it's supposed to serve. So I started that PhD and I ended up transferring to a different university under different supervisors because my original supervisor left. Long story short, I transferred back to the original university because my supervisors, my supervisor said that IFS wasn't a real modality and that I should be doing something like CBT instead. Even though what the first phase of my research found was first of all, that CBT has been overused for pmdd. That IFS is a very well researched modality. And that's what my paper was, the my scoping review. It has a huge amount of qualitative evidence behind it. It has emerging empirical quantitative evidence behind it and it needs to be more researched in this space. But the biggest thing that happened throughout that research was that when I did my pre program interviews with my participants, so people that actually were in this community that were dealing with these experiences, they asked for ifs either specifically saying I would love to learn more about this, I've heard more about this, this fits my experience. Or they would allude to concepts that were really key in ifs. So thinking of this multiplicity of the self, wanting to learn and practice self compassion, wanting to gain this sense of internal control and harmony within themselves. Because something that is really clear with PMDD is this sense of split self between the regular me and the me before I get my period, which is completely different. So yeah, these people really asking for it and I couldn't just, I didn't want to ignore that because my whole research was a co designed process and it was a feminist informed process where I wanted to put these voices first in my design of the program. I didn't want to just run something that's already been done that had that no one has any choice in the matter of. So I made the decision to transfer again to another university to find supervisors that supported me and they did. And I finished that PhD and I've had incredible results from the participants that I have had that I've taken through this program and that have wanted ifs that have gone to experience aspects of ifs, and that really benefited from it. So in saying all of that, to answer your question, I think that there's two things happening in the world at the moment. One is people are really excited about this modality. It's, it's still new, I guess, even though it started in the 80s. It's exciting, it's creative, it's really compassion focused, which is beautiful. It's not, you know, you're not being at war with yourself in the therapy room like other modalities make you. Not to be dramatic, but the other side of it, people kind of, to me, in my experience, feel a little on edge about the whole thing. Like this is an evidence based. This is strange, this doesn't make sense to me. You can't do it. Yeah, almost like a fear around something there. I don't know what that is. But it's interesting coming up against it. Even though in practice, in my, like my personal experience, throughout my PhD study, the way that I work with clients, it's life changing. And I think the reason for that is because it comes from this place of not even just acceptance, but embracing all of these different parts of us and seeking to understand and sit with and make space and room for these parts of us, rather than alternative modalities that really try to push that aside, box that up and just, you know, tamper that down so it doesn't interact or influence our life when, you know, the more we do that, the louder they're going to get and the more they're going to be banging on the door saying, hello, I just need to tell you something, listen to me. So, yeah, I think we need to just start listening to them.
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A
I must admit I've noticed that a bit as well. I haven't been trained in ifs, so that's not a modality that I use. But I have definitely seen the upswing in interest and dissemination. I suppose in a way the approach has really been disseminated and people have picked up on it and even clients do talk about it or refer to ifs and that sort of a thing. What, what is it? That meant that the, I guess the evidence base sort of lagged a bit behind the dissemination or something. I mean, I'm just trying to word that question right. But yeah, I mean that is because it has been around for you know, several decades and, and it is very popular and anecdotally seems really powerful. What, what's your hunch there about the, the actual evidence base?
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B
What's my hunch? I think it's something that's much more difficult to study in comparison to something like CBT or dbt. It definitely has a flavor of that kind of little woo woo, you know, talking about self compassion. What does that mean? And what are these parts of ourselves? What does that mean? That I think people that are more positivist in their approach. Dislike. I remember in my scoping review I sort of equated it to narrative therapy that had a quite similar evidence base and that really focused a lot on this more qualitative practice led and person centered kind of evidence instead of more quantitative. Okay. This was like this P value and this statistic type of evidence. Both are valid. One of them's more dominant in the world because it's easier to understand from a scientific perspective. But I don't think that we should disregard the other type. Yeah, I really don't know why it's lagged, for lack of a better word.
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A
Yes, that was my, my word there. But, but yeah, I suppose it's, it's, it's interesting. I mean a few thoughts, you know, like CBT can be so readily manualized, for example. And so it's, it's, it's sort of almost designed in a way that can be sort of, you know, more easily tested maybe and kind of rolled out, you know, by post grad clinical students or something who you know, can sort of be the therapists on the program or something. Maybe there's something in ifs whereby there's a kind of a, an art to the therapy where you're actually having to, you know, work carefully with where the person's at a bit more. And, but then again there are, I think, you know, there's some, some books that seem to outline, you know, kind of the steps to work through in an IFS kind of way. Maybe two that it, it just, you know, the focus from the IFS community has been more on dissemination and that's just where they've really focused their attention. There's been as you say, you know, qualitative work and, and case studies and some empirical studies as well as you've outlined in your, in your paper. But yes, it is, it is interesting. It's sort of, you know, it's kind of interesting to see how the different modalities develop. I mean, I use an approach called compassion focused therapy. And in that there are multiple selves work that we might do, and we work with multiple multiplicity schema therapy. I did do some training on that again recently. And, you know, they talk about modes or, you know, parts in a way. So it's, it is a really invaluable part of, of psychotherapy approaches. Can you, can you give us a bit more of a sense too, of the, the systems theory behind it? I guess, you know, like this idea that rather than just applying, you know, family systems theory to external relationships, you know, that we can think of our inner world as a bit of a system like that and perhaps. Yeah, just give us a bit of a rundown of some of that theory behind it.
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B
Yeah, well, that's how ifs started. Richard Swartz was a family therapist working with eating disorder clients and their families. And he began to notice, having been trained in this model, this way of working with family systems, began to notice that even when these clients would leave their family, if they've moved out, if they've left the home, if they've grown up, if anything's happened, this experience of this, of the eating disorder would continue even though they were out of this potentially dysfunctional family system. And when he would speak to those clients, what he began to notice was the way that they would naturally talk about themselves in parts like the eating disorder part, or the part of me that wants to do this or the part of me that doesn't want me to do this. And that idea of that family systems training, of seeing everything in a system in that if, you know, A causes B and B causes C and C causes A again, everyone has a role and a function in the family to keep this level of homeostasis, even though that might not be a good homeostasis, that kind of exists in an individual as well, rather than just the family. And so that sort of began this, this understanding of what if is. Ifs is today that, okay, maybe one part exists because there is another part here, and these have to keep each other in balance. So there's this form of homeostasis in the system. But actually when, if we take a step back, it's not a really healthy or good or helpful system, should I say? Even though all parts are welcome and there's no bad parts. Yeah, that, yeah, they're trying their best, but maybe it's just not the best that could be for the overall broader.
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A
System which really is the same for sort of actual families, isn't it? You know, like, it's. It's sort of. Not that the members of the family are bad or wrong or that it's their fault, so to speak, but rather that it's just gotten into a sort of a balance or a system at play, a dynamic there that. That is in certain ways, painful leading to suffering, I suppose, in a sense. And, you know, that's sort of the same with the internal family system. Could you give us an example, like, what might be an example of an individual, perhaps, or, you know, some of the different parts at play, how they might influence each other, sort of keep each other in balance, but also, you know, kind of lead to some sort of trouble.
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B
Yeah. Yeah, I can. I would love, like, if this was a video recording when one of my papers that I wrote gets published, to be able to see a visual parts map that I've made of one of my participant clients where we lay out a huge piece of paper and we actually drew in, like, who are these different parts of Eleanor, her pseudonymous, that were present with us when we're looking at her and PMDD and. And this whole experience for her. For her there. The way that her PMDD was experienced was every month she would have this extreme amount of fatigue and lethargy and just. Almost like just pure exhaustion that we ended up naming this, like, mushy cloud part, this gray mushy cloud that we drew on this paper, on this piece of paper. And she would also have this part of her that was like a drill. A drill sergeant just, like, attacking her over and over again that she's being lazy, that she's fat, that she's, you know, she should be getting up and exercising or cleaning the house or being more productive or being anything, anything under the sun. This drill sergeant will just come down and say, you need to do this. And then she would have another part of her that she called the vulnerable part that felt really small and really alone and separated and almost felt like they needed to completely collapse because they were so exhausted and they were so. They just. Yeah, exhausted and scared and just wanted to curl in. And this cycle kept happening between these three parts of. The more this drill sergeant would come down, the more this big blob. Lazy, not lazy. The exhausted cloud would come in and say, no, I'm not. I'm not. Don't want to do anything. And then the more the drill sergeant would come back, and then the vulnerable part would get smaller and smaller and more scared, and it'll just keep happening in this cycle every month. And then all of a sudden, when her period came, which is what happens with premenstrual dysphoric disorder, well, that'll just sort of slip away a little bit. And she'd be like, whoa, what. What was that? Like, where did that come from? That's not me. And then the same cycle would happen again. Yeah.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah. That's a really great, great example. I can see what you mean. The. The sort of. The exhausted part, you know, kind of feels like they just need to rest. The drill sergeant comes in and gets them in trouble. The. The vulnerable part feels more anxious and small and. And kind of exhausted, too, which then feeds back into the cloud of exhaustion that kind of, you know, just wants to rest. And round they go. And. And it's a. The system there at play. The couple of things that were interesting to me. One is that there's. It sounds like there's a kind of a creative process, as you say, in terms of identify, but also naming these different parts. How does that bit roll in? Ifs.
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B
So I love to incorporate aspects of art therapy into this, and that's what I ended up doing with my PhD. And so in a session, after we've heard the entire. The client's story and their experience, and we've developed that therapeutic relationship, and maybe we've spoken little bit about these parts that would come in during the PMDD phase, then I would offer the next session where we roll out this big piece of paper and we get creative about it. So if you witness. If you visualize this experience of being like, oh, you're just so exhausted. You just don't want to do anything. You just want to lay on the lounge. You're just, like, almost, like, grumpy at the world because you're just like, I can't. Like, what would they look like if they walked into the room? This part of you that's like, ah. And then she's like, oh, they're just this big, like, gray blob of cloudy mass. And I'm like, okay, let's draw it. Let's draw it in, and let's give it a name. Cloudy blob mass or whatever we want to call it. Okay, and then what about this. This sort of experience of this attack that you do on yourself, this judgment or this. This voice that says, like, you need to do more and more more and get up and be productive, and you're being fat and lazy. What if they walked into the room? Oh, okay. And then almost noticing that shift back allows space for. Who was that part of you that just curled up for a second and got a little bit scared when we talked about this other part that comes in and attacks you? Oh, that feels like they feel really small. Okay. Like, if we just allow the drill sergeant that we named before to step outside for a second and just looked at this little, small part, so they're just with us. Drill sergeant isn't in here anymore. What would they look like, and where would they be in the room when you see them with us? Would they be, you know, next to you or behind the lounge or, you know, in the corner of the room somewhere or behind the door or, you know, and what would they wear? And what would their hair look like and what would their face look like and their body posture and. And how would they seem to you? What would they be saying? And you're able to really, like, flesh it out more and. Okay, all right, let's. Let's draw them in if they were here with us, and, you know, this little figure gets drawn on the piece of paper, and then we end up with this big visual map of these different parts that we can then go in and see. All right, let's draw a line from this one to this one. And that relationship feels a little controlling or a line from here to here, and that's. This one's just mean to this one all the time, and this one's scared of this one, and so on and so forth. We can see what. That. How that system is organized, and at the same time, we're able to be. I always say it's much easier to work with an aspect that's challenging if we can be in relationship with it. And it's much easier to be in relationship with something that is almost like a human form rather than this conceptual big object of shame or fear or this critical thing, you know, okay, we can be in a relationship. We can be in conversation and dialogue with the drill sergeant part that's sitting here, and they're in their suit, and they're really intense, and, you know, we're able to actually have a conversation with them because they look like us and they can talk like us, rather than this inanimate, amorphous thing. Concept of self criticism or something like that.
- [28:53]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I sort of. I noticed that there are some common themes, I suspect. You know, the. The. The self criticism as a theme must. It certainly comes up a lot in. In my work. I notice that people have the drill sergeant or some version of that, that kind of Critic. And then the vulnerable piece, too, is. Is sort of one of those themes that for a lot of people, they struggle with that feeling of vulnerability or feeling small or the anxious, you know, part of themselves and more and more that exhausted part, to be honest, you know, I'm just noticing a lot of people, you know, really, really struggling with those. Those feelings of exhaustion. So you're sort of disentangling the different parts, kind of naming them, perhaps bringing that art therapy approach, drawing them, using imagery, really trying to sort of be descriptive in all of the different facets of the image of this particular part. Maybe in a kind of a humanoid form or something, but to be able to have that conversation with them, I guess. And perhaps chair work there. Is that then part of perhaps what you're doing?
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B
Yeah, we do that. Maybe there's not even a chair in the room. Maybe this part likes to be completely in the corner of the room. And that's fine. We're not going to make them sit on a chair in front of us if that's too scary for them. But by imagining them being there, wherever they are, we're able to slowly invite them in to be in this conversation with us. And something that I love doing, especially with the population that I worked with, who were all women and women between the ages of 18 and 40 was my sample. So similar age to me. When a part got comfortable in the circle with us and we're able to have more of a conversation, I always like to ask if the part wanted an outfit change, because I feel that sometimes parts are being put in this particular image of, like, oh, you're just in this, like, horrible, mean, ugly gray suit, and you just want to, you know, attack everyone with your, you know, sharp, pointy fingers. And, you know, your hair's all slicked back and tight, and you're just so tight and strict. When actually they might want to have a more comfortable outfit to wear when they're in conversation with us. Maybe they don't want to be as strict and uptight and, like, rigid and controlled as how they seem or what they have been in our system. And that's always nice to do. And often the vulnerable parts. This is funny. I didn't end up writing this, but I thought it was amazing that whenever I'd ask, like, a vulnerable part if they wanted an outfit change, they all wanted to wear pajamas and be at a pajama party, which was sweet. And so we like them. We were like, okay, we're going to join the pajama party. Bring your Sleeping bag in. Bring your toy and your pillows in. Let's make you super comfortable in this space, and then we can start having more of a conversation. Yeah, yeah.
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A
There's a real key to making the parts feel safe, I guess. You know, the. Making the. Making that part that's in the corner of the room feel safe enough to approach or making even the more critical or attacking part, you know, perhaps changing into something more comfortable sort of thing. And the imagery, really, of getting into your PJs and snuggling up in your doona, I mean, that's just. That's the very image of safeness, isn't it, really? And so. And. And I guess, yeah, we're. We're much more able to. To sort of explore those parts and to have that conversation when each of the different parts feel safe.
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B
And often that's probably like, it's sometimes the first time that they've ever felt that welcomed.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Or. Yeah. Comfortable with us or safe with us. Especially with me, because I'm always well aware that I'm a stranger in this room to these parts of this person. They have no idea who I am. They don't know me. They probably don't trust me. Some of them probably don't even like me. And so I have to take a lot of time to allow them to feel really comfortable in this space and almost buy into what this process is, gaining permission for the parts to be like, okay, yeah, and work with you. We can do this process together. We can be in this therapy space and that they want to, rather than a sense of force, because it will never work if we don't get permission from parts.
- [33:24]
A
I just suddenly thought, are the. Is the therapist trying to. A bit like you did at the very start of our conversation, but is the therapist trying to bring an awareness to their own parts and the way that, you know, sort of different aspects of the therapist might come into the room or be present in amongst all of this.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah. I'm acutely aware of the parts that are around me most of the time. Something nice happens when I am in. In my therapy sessions with. With clients that I have a really strong relationship with, where I just feel so in myself. And when I notice if there's maybe a client that I. Maybe it's triggering something in me. Maybe. Maybe there's a little bit of counter transference happening or. You know, I've always liked to imagine that part in the room with us, just silently, just myself, you know, it's nothing to do with the client. I don't bring that into the conversation at all. But just for me, like, okay, you're here. I get that we can chill out. We're going to be with this person and their parts and then I'll attend to you after the session, whatever that might be.
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A
Yeah, yeah, no, very. Sort of really seems important to have that self awareness piece. Noticing it, not necessarily bringing it into the, to the, the therapeutic sort of space, but, but being, well, therap sort of interaction but sort of knowing it's there in the space, I guess is. Now there's the. There you alluded to before. The, the idea of the self, I guess, with a capital S. Isn't that. I think. And so, yeah. Can you just describe what's the self? And you know, how does, how does that begin to come into these conversations?
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B
Yeah, well, to first go back to the importance of being aware of my parts as a therapist and you get to sit in this, this place of self. I think it's really important because I get to demonstrate what it's like to be in that sort of self leadership space to clients when I am in that. And it's also much easier to be in a therapy session when I am in that, in that space of self. And it offers this nice, maybe nice new version of what. Oh like that's what I could be to these different parts of me, you know, afraid of them or attacking them or, you know, there's like a different energy that can come in the energy of the self. And that's the third tenet I guess of ifs is that first there's parts. Second, that these parts exist in a system. And third, that above all of this there's this thing called the self, which is you can equate it to maybe witnessing consciousness. If you are taking a more Buddhist approach. I think that's where it came from. More Eastern philosophies being drawn from. But it's basically just this innate capacity for curiosity and compassion and calm and clarity and all these other good c words. There's eight Cs.
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A
Okay.
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B
And what an IFS practitioner believes is that this is innate in, in every person. We don't have to try to create all of this. We naturally have all of this and it can be uncovered and you can sit in it. And that the goal of therapy is to become self led where it's much common and easier for the self to be in charge of the show. Yeah. From this place of compassion and curiosity and calm and centeredness. Yeah.
- [37:04]
A
Yes. Sometimes it's those other parts that are running the show and, you know, one or other might dominate, or the conflict between them might be the dominant kind of force in the whole thing. But trying to shift to the. To the self as a sort of a. An orienting system of the whole. The whole thing. You said compassion, and you've mentioned self compassion, too. Tell us a bit more about that. Like, how would you sort of define compassion from an IFS point of view? Or how does that look in terms of the self and the compassionate part?
- [37:44]
B
Something that I like about ifs is that it goes beyond this idea of just accepting. Like, accepting feels to me quite neutral. It's like, okay, yep, step one, I can accept. I accept this is happening. I accept that this is the case. I can accept these parts of me and so on and so forth. What I like about IFS is that the compassion piece takes that to a whole new level where you're not just accepting it, you're actually embracing it. And you're saying, I can be with this. I can be in relationship with this. I can hold this lovingly. Like, it feels like love. It doesn't feel like just, yep, neutral, whatever can deal with that. It's like, okay, I'm here, almost parental, like a really good parent, which hopefully people get to experience. If not, you have yourself for that.
- [38:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's cool. It's tricky though, isn't it? I mean, it's there. It's in there. But we do get a bit shaped by our experiences of life and the caregiving that perhaps we received, you know, growing up or other experiences we've had. I mean, would you actively cultivate that part? Actively cultivate compassion as beyond acceptance, but sort of, you know, like a genuine love and sort of. And also motivation, I guess, by the sounds of it, to be helpful really is kind of what seems to be coming up there. I mean, how might you actually actively cultivate that?
- [39:24]
B
There's always a moment when I'm doing these parts, maps. And not just for PhD participants, but the clients that I do see, because I do it quite often. There's always this moment where I hear something that a client says that fits so well in the definition of self. It could be something as simple as, like, oh, but I feel safe with this part. And that, to me, feels like it's a. Like a door opening to, okay, now we can explore and build and work out who this self is for this person.
- [40:05]
A
And.
- [40:07]
B
Yeah, and purely just asking, like, who was that? That. That feels safe with this part. Do they feel safe with all of these parts, how do they feel toward this part? Maybe the one that's like all dark in the corner and. Yeah, just. Just never trying to force it because we don't want it to. I mean, I don't want it to be any type of false, you know, I'm just going to power through with compassion type experience. It has to be authentic. And the way that I find that is through those little moments that I hear from clients that would fit into that definition of the self and just teasing that out more and exploring that more until they have like a really nice, again, feeling and like understanding and felt sense and an image even of what this self is. And from there it's. It's much easier to bring that into the room, I guess, or just. Or naturally have that or bring that out because we can remember what it felt like when we said that small sentence of I feel safe with this part of me. Something like that. Yeah. I think to answer the question about to cultivate it, I think those small moments are cultivating it. And again, I wouldn't want to necessarily force anything or make anything fake by thinking, oh, everyone has a self, so it must be there. So I'm just gonna try really hard to, like, be compassionate. Yeah.
- [41:34]
A
Yes.
- [41:34]
B
I'm not seeing that work. The, the, the. The trying of compassion, that feels like a different part to me.
- [41:40]
A
Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yes, it's. It's really the core principle is that the self is in there. And our job is much more about just sort of seeing it come to the surface a little bit and picking up on those moments, like listening. Well, it sounds like you're really listening carefully and well, and it probably even kind of flickers in the conversation and so being able to hear. Ah, okay. That bit feels more. That's this safeness there. Tell me more about that. And trying to, to kind of really pick up on those therapeutic sorts of opportunities, I guess. And it creates something more authentic because it really is arising from the person themselves and kind of building upon that rather than trying to open up their heads and tip it in or something?
- [42:35]
B
Compassion.
- [42:35]
A
Yeah, tip in the compassion. Would there be other qualities that you're listening out for? I mean, safeness, I guess you mentioned. Are there, Are there other sort of words or phrases or qualities that you're sort of listening out for as you sort of listen out for the self?
- [42:53]
B
Yeah. Any of these eight Cs?
- [42:56]
A
Oh, yes.
- [42:57]
B
Especially curiosity. To me, curiosity is the first and often the first one that comes because it's easy to be curious about something it's much more easy to be curious about something than to be compassionate toward it. Just in my opinion, like, oh, yeah, I'm interested in my tea. That's here. I'm not necessarily compassionate about my tea, but I can be interested in it. And that sort of brings us in a little further. So curiosity, sense of clarity. When, whenever a client speaks about, oh, my center or my, my whole self, my true self, my, you know, my heart, things like this often allude to this idea of self as well. I want to go back a little bit about the question of cultivating this passion.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah.
- [43:45]
B
Something I do after we've completed this parts map is we cut out the individual images of the parts. So we have almost like playing cards of these different parts of ourselves. And I ask the client if they can take them home and just sit with them and just maybe you can lay them out on your bed or you can put them on your desk or you can just hold them in your hands or just have this moment with these cards. And to me, that's practicing being in self. I can hold all of this. I can be curious about what I'm, you know, what the colors I've put in or the words that I've put here or the shapes or the feelings of these cards. I'm able to carry them with me or, you know, remember that this, you know, I want to bring my vulnerable part with me here or I want to have a conversation with my inner critic here or you know, remembering that this is my exhausted part that I've put down like that. All to me is cultivating this idea of self.
- [44:44]
A
And really that you mentioned it before, you know, this idea of no bad parts and you know, even the most painful or sort of even destructive kind of parts or tendencies. You mentioned self criticism and shame. I mean, those are very painful parts to ourselves. And yet, you know, perhaps at some level they are protective or trying to help or you know, and, and definitely certainly self criticism. If we think of some of the, the evolved motivations behind self criticism is to try to stay safely in the group, you know, by not, not being seen as unworthy or lax or lazy and you know, those sorts of things. And so yeah, in some ways that in itself is compassion or self compassion, you know, that ability to sort of non. Pathologize those, those even more painful parts of ourselves.
- [45:42]
B
Yes, definitely. Yeah. It's just that that first step of welcoming them and saying, yeah, I'm, I can hear you, I can see you. I, I want to have a chat with you. I want to understand you. I want to hear what you need. I want to be able to provide the help that you might need or the requests that you might have. And, yeah, I just want to sit with you. And the first step is by not saying, can't even go there. Don't want to deal with that. Horrible. Must need to delete all type of shame from my brain immediately.
- [46:16]
A
No. Yes. There's a. There's a gentleness to it, a tenderness to it, but there's also a real capacity to hold those parts in a caring way, but an assertive way. I'm guessing, you know, that. You know that there might be some, you know, assertive conversations that have to happen with the different parts or whatever or go. Guiding sort of conversations. So it's sort of. It's a little bit of both. There's the. The warmth and tenderness and. And acceptance and. And, you know, no bad parts bit. And then there's the, okay, so what might we do to be most helpful here? And how can we. Yeah, just take responsibility and, you know, change or grow or, you know, head towards flourishing?
- [47:06]
B
Absolutely. I always say to clients when we talk about self is that it is this beautiful combination of compassion and clearness. And when I say clearness, I mean that being able to take charge when we need to take charge. Parts don't get away with things all the time. We want to love them, we want to accept them, and we want to understand where they're coming from. But if you're actively ruining someone's life, someone's going to have to step in and say, guys, come on. Like, this is not how we want to work here as a whole. Let's make a change. And that idea of being really clear and also balancing it with compassion is, I feel like what makes the self. And I said before, it's like a good parent. It feels like the perfect parent that anyone would want. Someone that you feel so safe with because they feel compassion toward you, and they're also able to take charge when things might be getting a little out of whack. You're like, oh, good. Okay, self's come in. I'm fine.
- [48:01]
A
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing the. The next papers that you're publishing. By the sounds of it. There's something coming soon and. And that sort of thing. Having done your PhD, what's your hunch? Does it. Does it feel like ifs really does need a stronger evidence base that there should be, I don't know, more RCT or something like that or. Or does it feel that, you know, the evidence is pretty robust and there's. There's good qualitative evidence and, and, you know, and really, you know, it more. It is more about dissemination and just giving people the opportunity to, to experience it or. Where have you landed? Having done the PhD.
- [48:44]
B
Yeah. I would love for there to be more research. I think research would really help get this other side of the spectrum on side with IFS that I was talking about before. And there is research being done. There's Kathleen de Boa. Don't know if you've heard of her, but she's down in Melbourne and she's finished her PhD on IFS for trauma, and she did a phase based on process, like a group therapy and then individual ifs work. So you should get her on the podcast.
- [49:16]
A
Absolutely. Good suggestion. Yeah.
- [49:20]
B
And yeah, I think what I. I like how robust getting into an IFS accredited course is because it allows, like any type of cowboy situation to be knuckled down. We don't want people coming in and just like, doing whatever they want. And we need to be ethical and considerate and safe with the clients that we work with. And I think research is a big part of that, being able to. Yeah. Have this as a really well thought out modality. It already is. And from. From what we can see, it's also really popular. And what I think is we just want that to be a little bit more, like, held in research. So that. What am I trying to say? Yeah. So I guess so no one does anything unsafe with it, if that makes sense.
- [50:21]
A
Yeah, no, I think there is a very cohesive model already. And I think my sense is if you go to some of the training that's around and so on, you get a good grasp of the model. And that's really important in terms of people practicing it, you know, sort of adhering to the model a bit and staying within certain guardrails and doing it. Doing it well. And then the research. Yeah. Just kind of provides the support needed to kind of advocate, you know, for the model especially, I guess, like you say, among certain researcher, academic sorts of circles, clinicians really do seem to be picking it up and running with it a bit more. But the. The evidence does seem to be important just so that we, you know, have a really kind of grounded sense that it. That it actually is helpful, I guess. And it sounds like you kind of found that with the PMDD clients that you're working with.
- [51:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think the other thing that I want to say is when I use the word cowboys before. So I'm a psychotherapist and we're an unregulated industry. Unlike psychologists, we don't. We do have PACFA and we have aca, these registration bodies, but it's not the same as something like ahpra. And I think with more research into things like ifs that psychotherapists would use and other modalities, it also helps that process of having counselors and psychotherapists be accredited and also be able to be more affordable to the broader public, especially in Australia, because we're not under Medicare. So if we have really I just see it as like a trickle down effect of more evidence there is for something. The more, you know, we can use it as an evidence based approach and the more accreditation we can have and then the more people can find us because the government thinks that we're legit.
- [52:19]
A
Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, gotcha.
- [52:22]
B
So I think it would benefit everyone.
- [52:24]
A
Yes. Beautiful. Well, yeah. Megan Buys, thank you very much for. Well, I'm really impressed with your work. I think it's. I do actually think it's been sorely needed and so to see the studies coming out, especially in Australia, it's sort of exciting and cool and interesting and I think I will have mentioned in the introduction, but the, the paper is actually open access so everyone can check it out and I'll have the link in the description, of course. And also, yeah, thank you for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.
- [53:01]
B
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, this has been really fun. Thank you.