Shannon (2:42)

journey, I guess into elite sport and the Olympics and that sort of stuff, what really stands out for you most about those experiences?

Toby Jenkins (2:52)

Yeah, look, it's an interesting question, Stano, because when I think about those, it's really, I would call it yin yang, I guess, which is the full spectrum from highs and lows and the enjoyment of it, the performance of it. Starting off as just loving the Game finishing very much at the pointy end of performance spectrum, obviously. And yeah, I mean, even at the Olympics, you know, the highs and lows just within those 16 days were intense as well, from sort of a near out of body high in the opening ceremony to, you know, shame associated with a media mistake that I made that I nearly got sent home for, to, you know, pure fear, sort of stress response as well, which was, you know, day I arrived in the Olympic village, I thought I had a stomach infection. The day I left, it stopped, you know, so really, yeah, looking back, really proud of the effort that went in. But that's probably. Even. To get to that perspective has probably taken me 20 years. And when I talk to other Olympians and stuff, it's often the same for them too, regardless of where they stood on podiums or not. And one of the reflections too is when I think back to the Olympics itself, one of the key sort of takeaway experiences of it was disappointment, frankly. I mean, it might seem madness outside of looking in, and I think about it as a bit of madness too, but now. But, you know, I was disappointed in how I played. Didn't really feel like we played particularly well as a team either. You know, we did okay, we finished ninth. But, you know, a lot of the teams that we, you know, that we didn't beat, we had beaten in the. In the couple of years in the lead up to. But, you know, you go very focused on trying to win. Right. And I think what happens in the elite performance journey is you get trained, and I see this also in other disciplines, whether it's business or work, all sorts of stuff, but we end up sort of really looking at the black dot on the white page and trying to make the black dot go away and remove it altogether. And you train yourself to look for the errors and look for the weaknesses and trying to improve all that stuff. And you, you know, it's hard to keep that perspective of where things are in the scheme of things and how you're going. And so, yeah, mate, it's. It's a really. It's genuinely a mixed bag looking, looking back, but it's really become something that I've come to appreciate more probably in the last couple of years more than. And even, yeah, I'd probably say four years. And then I did some work with the Paris water polo men's team and they had probably Australia's best ever. Well, they did. It was Australia's best ever pool result. And they. And I'd been doing some work with culture and mindset and that sort of stuff with them and they were just. And it was really cool to reconnect, to kind of see these young guys going on that same journey that I'd been on and quite therapeutic in a way. But yeah, reconnecting to it and recognizing that process, the effort that went into it and, and you know, the having some perspective on it and yeah, it sort of helped me come to terms with my own experience too. In lots of ways.

Shannon (6:40)

It's kind of, it's like on a knife's edge, isn't it? I mean, from sort of exhilaration, you know, and kind of feelings of success and pride through to devastation and disappointment. And you even mentioned, you know, shame in one particular incident that I'm not familiar with from you. But, but you know, like, it's, it's on, it's, it's sort of those extremes. But then kind of a lot of the time I imagine it's just damn hard work too, you know, just sort of trudging, you know, up and down the pool and you know, with the sort of, you know, throwing the ball or you know, whatever the little bits and pieces of. But there's, there's perhaps that element of it as well.

Toby Jenkins (7:20)

Yeah, there was. And again, the reflection is, you know, sometimes I look back at, you know, this 18 year old self, you know, who. I went off to the Australian Institute of Sports straight out of school and you know, as the youngest member of the residential program down there. And it was, in hindsight, an incredibly tough period. You know, the youngest guy, least accomplished, least experienced, fresh out of home, away from school and mates and family and all the usual support networks, you know. Yes, I made the Australian team, but I'd missed out on not one, but two of the open men's tours, which was really what I was there for. Sydney Olympics had been announced and I wanted to crack into the Australian team. That was the goal and the dream and the opportunity of it.

Shannon (8:11)

And

Toby Jenkins (8:13)

I missed out on, as I say, two of these tours and been the only one left behind on both of those occasions. And again, I would have thought if you'd asked me as a 13 year old first learning to play the game, would you like to play for the Australian under 20 team? I would have been like, oh my God, yes. But then the comparison point was missing out on the open team and therefore, you know, I deemed it a failure and didn't know whether I'd ever be good enough. And you know, the inner critic was very harsh and I know that's sort of Part of this compassion piece, too, right, is how do you deal with that? And, you know, I look back at that time and there's a particular story that I tell if you're happy for me to share it. But go on. Yeah, yeah. It was in September that year, you know, I'd missed out on the two tours. And then finally the Serbian national team were coming into Canberra to train for a week in Canberra. And then we had three official matches in Sydney was the idea as a pre Olympic sort of preparation event. And finally, you know, like here I was, 30 of Australia's best players fly into. Into Canberra. You know, we're in a room above the pool there. If anyone knows the AIs, there's an indoor pool there. And we're in this room. The 30 guys, some of these guys are my heroes, others are great mates of mine that I've played in the Aussie under 20 team with. And so finally I'm in this room that I really wanted to be a part of. And in that moment, the coach went through all the plans for the week and the fortnight ahead, and he said, oh, stick up your hand. Anyone who doesn't have your uniform for the camp, I stick up my hand. And as I looked around, I was the only one. And he said, oh, Toby, you know, you. You haven't been selected for this camp. You know, you're here to watch, you're here to learn. You're here as a part of the residential program. You won't be playing the official matches and you won't be getting a uniform. And I was just horrified and gutted and mortified by this experience and wanted to run and hide, but really didn't have a choice. Well, I chose to keep showing up, chose to keep training. And looking back at that, sort of amazed by some of those choices, really. So I did that for the week. And then we got to same room, same pool, same group of guys. And the coach went through the plans for the official matches after that first week of training. And he said at the end of the sort of all the plans, he said, who here doesn't have accommodation travel for Sydney? And I stick up my hand again, sucker for punishment. And as I look around, it's the same situation again. And he said, oh, Toby, if you're going to come to Sydney, then you'll need to make your own arrangements. And another stinger in front of this group. Gutted by this. And then I turned to my mate again. There was nothing much I could do about it, so I turned to my Mate. And I said, oh, Tommy, would it be okay if I come up to Sydney with you and stay with your parents and I'll come and watch these games, you know, and video if I, you know. And one of the assistant coaches said, you can video if you want. And I was like, okay, well, I'll do that. And then so I got up to Sydney and, you know, another meeting room, this time in this story. And, you know, we're underneath the Sydney Homebush Aquatic Center. There's a. There's the stand there just next to the pool. Another meeting room underneath that stand. All the guys in the room, coaches out the front. He's been through game plan, strategy, tactics, all that stuff. And then the. Yeah, and then the guys are in front of me, sort of warming up, doing their stretches and exercises and all that sort of stuff. And I'm sort of standing up the back of the room watching and listening and again, like, there, but desperately wanting to be a part of it. And then finally the coach said, okay, everyone, let's go out to the pool deck. And I stepped out of the room and into the hallway to head out to the pool. And all of a sudden I feel this hand grab my arm. And as I turn to see what's going on, here's this guy, Nathan Thomas, holding my arm. And, you know, Nath was the Australian vice captain. He's one of. At that point, he'd been voted one of the top five most dangerous players in the world. He's recently come back from playing Champions League finals in Europe. He's an amazing player, and I've known him for a month or two at training, but didn't really know the guy well. And he. So I was like, he has his hand on my arm, like, what's going on? And then he opened his bag and he stuck his hand into his bag and he pulls out this shirt. And he said, tobes, I've been watching, and the shirt is very similar to the one the guys have on. And he said, I've been watching, mate, and I've seen the effort you're putting in. And I wanted you to have this old T shirt of mine because one day I think you're going to earn your own. And then he just walked down the hall out to the pool deck. Changed my life. Right?

Shannon (13:42)

Right.

Toby Jenkins (13:43)

30 seconds of his time, an old T shirt. And every time I tell this story, I feel emotional. Every time I tell this, if I mention Nathan Thomas, my mum starts crying. She's so grateful to him. But if I look back at this time, like this was one of those moments where I really was overwhelmed by doubt. There was no self belief, you know, I really didn't think I would ever be good enough to make this team. And in this moment of, you know, you could call it compassion, kindness, you know, Nathan sort of his position of privilege and power in this dynamic, just noticed that here was this kid struggling and he didn't have to, right, he didn't have to pay attention to me as the youngest, the least experienced, the least accomplished player, but he did. And he took 30 seconds of his time in an old T shirt to inspire me forever, really. And certainly through to missing out on Sydney, to making the Athens Games in, in 2004 where he became my captain. So that, and that was a amazing sort of full circle experience. And you know, he and I have had lots of conversations about this T shirt. And what I've come to realize, Stan, and particularly in the last couple of years as I've reflected on it, is that, you know, there's nothing I can. This is not a debt that can be repaid. It is only to be paid forward. And the magnitude of the impact versus the tiny act of kindness and thoughtfulness and compassion for this person who is struggling next to him, you know, is extraordinary, I think. And I mean, one of the reasons why I love this idea of compassion, the work that you're doing around it is really cool because I do think, you know, we all find ourselves in moments when the self belief is gone, where there is no, you know, where the doubts are overwhelming and all that sort of stuff. And it's in those moments that we all rely on these tiny acts of kindness to the people around us. We are all reliant on it in a very meaningful, interconnected, everyday sense. We all rely on that. And it can be an easy thing to lose sight of, I think. So the gift or the opportunity is that, you know, I got through to an Olympics and now that's a, that's a card to be played in order to. Or not, not to be played so much. But it's a recognizable sort of accomplishment, I guess. And, and perhaps that gives me a vehicle and a voice and a platform and an opportunity to talk to people about this stuff that really matters. The real lessons from the journey, right? You know, the Olympics and the accomplishment, all that stuff is shiny and cool and you know, it was an amazing experience and. But it's quite. I think there are some. Really. The one thing about sport, I think there are lots of parts of sport that don't translate into the rest of life because it is a zero sum game. It is winner and loser and all that sort of stuff, which often doesn't apply in the rest of life. But there it is, an accelerant for human experience. And when you care so much, and this is something also I've learned is the more you care, the more likely the challenge is to show up, the more intense those experiences are, as well as the highs at both ends of that spectrum. And so it's an accelerant for kind of understanding some of those experiences, I guess, or certainly has been now in hindsight. And so it becomes a vehicle for connecting with people, but really sort of understanding the human lessons from it, as opposed to necessarily the, you know, the accomplishment, the determination and even the boring reps. Like, the part that amazes me is that there weren't too many points on that journey that I didn't feel like the laps weren't worthwhile. There were a couple. And actually Nath saved my bacon again a few years later on the sort of in 2002. I remember leaving a training session crying with frustration, just like, oh my God, this is just, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? And literally, I walked out of that training session. My phone rang, picked it up. Hey, Tobes, it's Nath, mate. I've just been talking with a coach in Spain that I used to play with. He's looking for a center forward. Would you be interested in playing in Barcelona for a season? I was like, oh, mate, are you my guardian angel or what? Because, you know, again, like, this incredible opportunity and I desperately. I don't know whether I would have made the Olympics at that point had that not happened as well because it, like, it just refreshed, took me back to the fun of it gave me a new challenge, new environment, away from what was a really grinding training environment in Australia to a real game based professional environment as well. And earn a few bucks, sure. But there's. There aren't too many water polo players who are rich from water polo, I can tell you that. But yeah, it was an amazing experience. So, you know, on two occasions I feel like these little moments can change everything. And so often it's outside of your own control. Right? Yeah.

Shannon (19:12)

Thanks so much for describing all of that. I mean, there's just the thing I love about it is just making compassion real, you know, like, it only takes a moment. It can be just 30 seconds of time. And yet that the ripple effects are profound. I mean, there's a few things that stand out for me in. In that story. I mean, the first thing is just my curiosity around the coach too, you know, and. And that idea of, you know, who doesn't have the uniform, you know, there's a kind of a. There's a public outing in that or. Or sort of. It's sort of shaming really, in a way, in and of itself. Now, he might have had particular practical reasons to do it that way, or there might have been even perhaps some coaching theory behind it. I'm not sure. But. And maybe it's just that he's really in a competitive motivation or a competitive mindset and so not thinking so much about those other things. But, you know, that, that, that. And it happened a couple of times in a row, you know, like that. That sort of stands out. And then there's just your determination through thick and thin to keep going, to keep turning up, you know, to these things. And I'll come back to that in a sec. And then Nath, you know, like, with his. Because as it says on my T shirt, we read that before we started, but, you know, compassion is a sensitivity to suffering. So he could tell, no doubt he could tell that you were doing some hard yards there. And then it's a commitment to try to alleviate that suffering. He just. This little gesture. Here's a shirt. And we know that compassion really arises, too, out of that caring motivation, which is much more about feeling a sense of closeness and connection and togetherness and belonging to. And that T shirt represented all of that for you, and it sort of got you. Got you back into the. Into that sense of safeness and security just a little bit, you know, just enough really, in a way to. To keep you going, but in terms of you. And I'm not sure if you want to comment on any of that, but

Dr. Stan Steindl (21:32)

I guess I'm sort of also interested.

Shannon (21:34)

Just your own inner voice there. Like, what was the self talk? Like, how did you. How did you internally kind of find your way through all of that? Where did self criticism actually come into it or not? Yeah. What are your thoughts there?

Toby Jenkins (21:52)

Yeah, so I might actually just comment on a couple of those points, Stan, and then get into that part. Yeah, so, like, with the coach, I've reflected on that component of this story too, and often people raise that. But from a compassionate standpoint, what I've. The perspective I've come to hold with that is that he was a guy who clearly had his own stuff showing up. Right. And therefore, in the terminology of psychological flexibility and some of that stuff that we may explore in due course. Perhaps he's hooked by his own experience of being the coach and in this particular setting. The previous coach who became my coach in Athens, he'd actually been, you know, he had been fired earlier that year. So this guy had been newly appointed as the coach and, and perhaps, you know, feeling, you know, he was an important camp, important event and perhaps hooked by his own stuff. Right. And so yeah, is it ideal leadership or coaching behavior? Absolutely, you know, absolutely not. But yeah, I think part of, part of what I've come to learn around the compassion and the self compassion is that I find really interesting is like if you're willing to own your own and genuinely apply some self compassion, then what I've noticed in me and in others is that you can actually see that others have their own. Right? Like everyone has their battle. There are lots of different phrases for it, I guess, but whether you're hooked or you got your battle or whatever it is, everyone has one. That's actually the bit that we all share as humans, which is sort of the beauty and the grace of that, but also the challenge of it. And so yeah, I sort of try to look back on that experience with a sense of compassion for him and I found that really helpful too Stano. And you know, reflecting on some of these journeys and stories and applying self compassion almost back in time, right, to this 18 year old kid who's feeling awful at that point and just holding him and saying, hey mate, it's okay, keep going, I love you. And again I get emotional around it. Yeah, it is. And, and it's that and the recognition also that the self compassion is an ongoing process. Right. It doesn't, it's not just a one off and it's part of the reason why I tell the story too Stan, to be honest, because it allows me to reflect on, on these challenging moments in my life and then say, hey, you know, far out. I'm actually really proud of you, you did well. And that's just not a once off event, you know. And I love, actually part of what I love about this work that you're obviously doing and I do too and get to do and have the privilege of doing with my clients is the recognition that these things are ongoing processes. The difficulty of the thought or the memory that doesn't necessarily go away. But if we can relate to it with a bit of compassion and for ourselves and you know, that, you know, Toby at September 1998, Toby at, you know, you know, at other moments in that journey, you know, in 2002, when, you know, leaving the pool enormously frustrated, we can apply that saying. We can apply the compassion back to those difficult or unhelpful thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories in a really meaningful way. And one of the things I've loved about, again, my practice with compassion, I guess, these days, is like meeting for me, it's a real physiological experience of what those moments felt like. And so to try to meet those moments with a bit of meeting physiology with physiology is sort of how I describe it. So getting my hands, you know, kind hands, exercises and some of that stuff that you're probably familiar with, perhaps for the audience, it's literally just sort of thinking about, you know, the kindness of what your hand and the, I guess those moments that your hands have been a part of, like hugging friends, hugging children, loved ones, all that sort of stuff. And then applying that same sort of sense of love and kindness and compassion to yourself or the part of you that feels like it's hurting at the time is a very brief exercise that I find I'm using more and more for myself and for my clients. But, yeah, mate, so sort of the compassion for the coach in reflection that, you know, almost certainly he had his own stuff going on, doesn't make the behavior right, but gives a little bit of understanding. Yeah. And then sort of the persistence in those moments, I think I just cared about it so much. Like, I wanted it to be there and I wanted to get there. And sometimes even that part, I wonder what I was trying to accomplish with that. Was it trying to prove I'm enough or something along those lines, maybe. I mean, post Olympics, I had two weeks of contentment and that was about the end of it. And then it took me 18 years to sort of reflect and really come to an appreciation for it. And I think working with the Aussie team again was a part of that process too. But, yeah, the inner critic was vicious, mate. Is the truth of it to come back to that final piece. Yeah, you know, you got to do better. You're not good enough. You're the last one selected on any team I ever made. Always felt like, oh, you know, even when the Olympic team was announced, I was, like, relieved but fearful that I'd be cut. And, you know, we were touring. You know, there was still a reserve there who was touring with us, so he could have taken my spot. Didn't know whether I could actually trust the selection anyway. So, yeah, the inner critic is. It's been. Yeah, it's been vicious at times, but I guess, you know, also driving the performance behavior a lot of times and the striving to get, to improve. The striving to get better, striving to address weaknesses and continue to improve the strengths and keep showing up. And I remember actually there was a quote. You ever seen the movie the Crow, Stano?

Shannon (28:34)

I'm not sure that I have to be honest, actually. Yeah, what's the, what's the quote?

Toby Jenkins (28:39)

There's this one training session that. The quote is my pain is my power, which is, and I remember specifically a swimming set where we were doing some testing and I thought, my pain is my power. I'm going to see if I can push myself so hard that I'll vomit at the end of the session.

Shannon (29:00)

Right.

Toby Jenkins (29:01)

I didn't get there in the end, but okay. Yeah, it's amazing to think and you know, when my folks got divorced and that sort of stuff, you know, I remember thinking that's, you know, that's part of my, part of my power is like this hurts. And when mates committed suicide, you know, that was part. Yeah. How do I channel that into this? You know, I'm not sure that's a particularly healthy relationship with pain, but at times it was incredibly useful and I had the outlet for it as you know, through the performance aspects of water polo.

Shannon (29:36)

So I mean, pain is definitely a sort of almost like a measure of how important something is for you or how meaningful it is for you. I mean, there's certain parts of pain that we probably prefer to limit, but it, but sometimes, at least in that self critical kind of part of it, yes, it's, it's a, it, it's, it is. Or, or it sort of wants to be a driver? I mean, can you unpack that a little bit in terms of like how was it sort of helpful versus how was it hindering of you in some ways? I mean it sounds like it was a little bit of both, actually.

Toby Jenkins (30:15)

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, helpful in the cracking of the whip and getting out of bed. Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think it's, it, it's genuinely both. Like I really wanted to be an Olympian. That was something that was really important to me. And, and also the sense that I was not good enough and had missed out on teams and missed out on selection and you know, so you're going to have to work harder, mate. And harder and harder and harder and you're going to have to actually, you know, these other people are more talented, so you're going to need to work harder than them. And you know, I remember the World Championships in 2003, you know, you're in the middle of a tournament and I would be the only player that went to the gym to do weights on the off days because I thought this is, it's a world championships, it's not the Olympic Games. It doesn't really matter what. In hindsight I don't know whether that was productive. You know, really that was a chance to be optimizing a pre game routine. It was a chance to feel really fresh. I mean at the time I think also I did feel better for doing the weights. But yeah, it could easily lead to over training and some of those sorts of things which of course the science now says. And our training was very much volume based, like our coach was more, more, more, more, more. And yeah, and you know, there was some logic behind that because we weren't in Europe playing professional leagues and professional teams all the time and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, it was, yeah, that was sort of the mentality was that nothing was going to be the Olympics and therefore, you know, this is just a milestone to steam through. Keep going.

Shannon (32:07)

It's, it's tricky, isn't it? It's tricky to unpack it actually, you know, like it. Yeah, it's, I mean there, there are different sort of forms of self criticism I guess too. Like some self criticism is more self improving, constructive. Like I guess as an elite athlete you, you wouldn't want to only think about your wins or achievements. You, you would want to think about where you needed to improve and where you needed to really practice or train. But then there's a kind of self hating self criticism, a sort of, much more shame based, you know, sort of I am bad kind of stuff. And, and, and presumably that has, well, often that can have a much, much more demotivating effect. I, I'm guessing.

Toby Jenkins (32:55)

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, it's been an interesting one to sort of sit with over the last few years as I've learned more about this sort of stuff too. And you know the fact that the more you care, the more likely the challenging and unhelpful stuff as well as the highs show up. That's why the exam feels harder than the exercises in the textbook. It's why game day feels harder than training and all that sort of stuff.

Shannon (33:21)

Yeah, right.

Toby Jenkins (33:22)

And of course if you can change your relationship with it as opposed to trying to change the experience itself. And I think, you know, looking back, I was much more in the control camp of shouldn't be feeling stress and pressure, shouldn't be, you know, this should be sort of flow state stuff and lots of shoulds. And actually one of the. One of the books that's almost long before I was introduced to psychological flexibility and act and all that sort of stuff. One of the books that helped me on that journey was Michael Johnson's book. He was. The Guy won the 200 and 400 meter sprinting in Atlanta, so the first person ever to do that. And he was. I think he was. The book was called Taming the Dragon or something like that as an autobiography. And he said that the point that really changed for him was when he. When the journalists were asking him, are you chasing the gold medal? In both, he would sort of deflect the question. Deflect, deflect, deflect. And then he said, the moment I said, yes, I am, he felt like suddenly the pressure was. He felt less pressure because he had chosen and taken agency over what this means for him or it changed his relationship to it in some way, I can't quite remember. But I remember thinking, oh. And I started to apply that even when people said, oh, how's Olympic selection going? And all that sort of stuff, and just started to say, yeah, yeah, I do really want it. We will find out. And a couple of months, or just talking more openly about it and recognizing that, then you have a choice of what you're going to do to try to make that happen. But yeah, it is a tricky one to unpack, I think.

Shannon (35:09)

It's interesting, isn't it, that that sort of sharing with others, I don't know, does it. On the one hand, you would imagine it would create a different feeling around accountability, but on the other hand, it also feels like a bit of a relief somehow to sort of. To say it out loud or something. And in that case with Michael Johnson. Was it Michael Johnson? Yeah, yeah, he. I don't know. It sort of helped to sharpen his focus and it was no longer a secret, maybe, or something like that.

Toby Jenkins (35:45)

Yeah, I think, you know, like in the. In the sort of like Flex world, we'd probably call that acceptance, right? You know, acceptance of the pressure as opposed to trying to deflect it or push it away or prevent it from happening by dodging questions and avoiding it. You're accepting that the pressure is the price of entry to having a crack at this 200 and 400. And perhaps the same for wanting to be selected in the Olympics. You're sort of accepting the price of entry somehow in a way that is more helpful. It doesn't make it Go away. But you kind of, you're not spending that energy trying to get rid of it anymore.

Shannon (36:30)

Very wise, very wise, mate. And you've got me twice now on my own topics. The first one was when you said that the, you know, the, the coach, you know, it was about able to bring empathy and understanding and mentalizing his position and bringing compassion to him. So that was the first one. And, and now you've brought up acceptance. And you're right, of course when you start the moment you say it, I think, yeah, there's, that maybe there's something in that acceptance and commitment thing which is really that a big part of, of you know, kind of, I guess act, but also, you know, this stuff around psychological flexibility. You've in a lot of your work and some of your blog and articles and so on just this shift, I guess in how you understand mindset and you've kind of alluded to it, but yeah, what's changed there for you and how did you come across psychological flexibility?

Toby Jenkins (37:27)

Yeah, so I came across it. I was first introduced to it really through 2016. So a bit of what I've come to call my crucible period which was, you know, had second daughter had silent reflux. So my wife and I weren't sleeping, you know, up and down every 45 or 90 minutes. I'm sure there are plenty of listeners that have been through that. We had, I'd had a shoulder operation from throwing a ball as hard as I could for 20 years and then, you know, finally it had come undone. So prior to my daughter's arrival, I was on the couch trying to sleep upright for six weeks. So I was severely sleep deprived. My father in law had leukemia at the time. Dad had died from a brain tumor. And it was a real pressure point obviously. And it was a lot in hindsight and it was a struggle. And in that time I really felt just this generalized sense of enormous frustration and I was rationalizing it. You know, I had a, you know, love, my wife still do, she's amazing. You know, I had these two great kids, you know, but I was just, and I just couldn't crack why was it. And of course I was dealing with the grief and a lot of that stuff felt logical. But then when I dug into ACT and psychological flexibility, the first tool I ever met from ACT was Kelly Wilson's Valued Living Questionnaire. I went through that and in about 10 seconds realized that I was enormously dissatisfied with work. Work was a 9 out of 10 for importance and a 2 out of 10 for satisfaction. And when I came back from Athens, I'd started a digital marketing company that's still going today. Actually, my business partner still runs it from the sunny coast too, Stan. So he loves it and is deep into it. And we've kept the friendship and all that kind of stuff intact, which is one of the things I'm extremely proud of. But that sort of really began my departure from the company that I'd started, which was really challenging as well, because, I mean, obviously you get tangled up in the identity of being a business owner and this particular part of you. And we put so much effort into it as well, of course. But that was the point at which I realized, oh, this. The work that I'm doing over here with this business, I just couldn't find a home. And I think the part of dad dying particularly was that he was 66 when he died. He was a fit guy. His folks had been 98 and 93 when they died. And there was this sort of expectation that he was only 2/3 of the way there. And that made me think, holy shit, like, what if I'm 2/3 away there? What does that mean? What am I doing? Why am I doing it? How does this impact me? And the bit that I really. And I was asking everyone for answers and what Psych Flex did, was it, or ACT did, was it changed the direction and turned it internally. And I've always been interested in self development philosophy, religion, in the sense of it, how it helps humans deal with the human condition. And what I found in ACT was an evidence base and a set of tools that was sort of hardcore science, which I loved as well. I've always loved science. And that tied together all these philosophical pieces that I'd, you know, the Eastern, Western, sort of mindfulness, stoicism. But it didn't throw out the goal setting and the performative aspects of what I'd learned through the Olympic journey as well. And so I found that really helpful. And I also. It just made sense of my own experiences as well. It really helped me make sense of things like, you know, being at the Olympics and having this just incredible ends of the spectrum experiences. Because it was. Because I cared so much. And so, yeah, got introduced to it there and just was so fascinated by it that I started to take. I was just like, oh, God, you know, mates. The psych gave me sort of the. Introduced me to the toolkit. And I started reading a lot of Dr. Russ Harris's work and Stephen Hayes and those sorts of people, which was awesome. And I went through and Just started taking mates through it. I was like, oh, would you, would you do me a favor and like just let me take you through this stuff because I'm really enjoying it. And you know, I chose my guinea pigs and they were willing participants and then basically, yeah, just realize that there was this repeatable set of questions that were useful and helpful and I guess that's what science is, right? A repeatable set of questions that helps get the result or a process. And so I love, you know, I know, you know, you bounce around the act Triflex or the Hexaflex and you know, it's a bit more fluid than that. But in the beginning, like it can be a really process oriented kind of engagement with someone and that sort of thing. Really, I enjoy that. And so yeah, mate. And I realized pretty quickly that this was the kind of stuff that I wanted to be talking about and helping people with and working on. I even tried to take it into sort of marketing engagements, that sort of stuff. And it was a bit clunky. I'm pretty sure they were wondering what on earth I was talking about, but particularly around the value stuff. But yeah, sort of fell in love with it and. And that was the introduction to it.

Shannon (43:08)

Yeah, no, I, and I love how you said that it, it didn't mean you had to throw away the stuff that you'd sort of hard learned, you know, through your Olympic experience, you know, that it was still about goals and values, it was still about taking action, it was still about, you know, sort of, you know, working hard towards something. It just sort of comes along with this, this other part around the mindfulness and acceptance and, and flexibility and so on. Where are you at now though, with your work? Because, because I think you are sort of, you've obviously moved from those initial, you know, conversations which sounds, you know, really cool. You're enthusiastic about it, you loved it, you're wanting to share it with mates and then on marketing meetings and talk about values, you know, and whatever, which. But I think what you've done now is you've really honed all of that and taking these ideas into business and leadership. I mean, what have you noticed more recently about how people sort of respond and you know, what sorts of things make the biggest difference but in that, Well, I guess maybe elite sport too, but also, you know, high performance leaders or in business.

Toby Jenkins (44:23)

Yeah, look, I mean the main shift. So I sort of do. I do the one on one coaching work. I also do quite a bit of training and speaking around this stuff and the shift for Me is that I would say that as an Olympian, I thought that mindset was really all about being harder and tougher and stronger. I thought it was about eliminating stress and pressure and I thought it was about setting goals and chasing them with some visualization thrown in. That was my perspective. And then once I got introduced to ACT and Psych Flex, I realized that, hey, I'm like missing 2/3 of the puzzle here. It's like sitting on a one legged stool and wondering why it feels wobbly. And you know, and what I love is that this was, it validated my lived experience of I'd done all the goal setting, I knew what I was there to do, I'd done visualization, all that kind of stuff. And yet, you know, here was this fear physiological response down in the open up corner of this triangle, you know, this little triangle is like, oh my goodness, this is actually my experience versus oh, you know, you just got to remove all that other stuff, like all that goes away and then you just chase that bottom right corner of the Triflex. And so what I've loved about it and what I say to people is the goal setting piece is really important and the behavioral piece is super important. But if you can't learn to unhook from your internal experiences of discomfort, fear, doubt, frustration, sadness, grief, loss, fatigue, however that shows up for you. And it shows up in so many different ways for so many different people and really in different ways in the same situation. But if we can help you unhook, then everything that you are already doing, this is a complimentary approach to everything that you're already doing in so many businesses. They are very clear on values, they're very clear on goals, they're very clear on action plans and development plans and objectives and all that kind of stuff. And that's cool, but no one is addressing or very few people are addressing the fear, the doubt, the frustration, the imposter syndrome of leaders stepping up, the terror of leaders leaving organizations and exiting what happens? Who am I when this happens? And I guess I've been through a few of those transitions too as an athlete and a couple of times in business as well, exiting my own companies. And if you can't decouple identity from what you are doing, like who am I is different to what I do. And if you can't understand how the role the mind plays in the inner critic and equally what I find fascinating is it helps me to debunk this myth of confidence as well, which is you don't want to feel confident before you start, you just want to make sure that you're clear on your plan. You may not feel confident, but you can step into an environment even when you feel. When you don't feel confident and you can execute your plan. And so what you're looking for is actual competence. You want people who feel deeply competent in having the difficult conversation. And often founders of a business become, say, in the business Sense founders, owners, CEOs become deeply competent in dealing with their own discomfort of having a direct conversation, for instance. But what happens as an emerging leader is you haven't had that experience yet, you haven't built the competence yet. And so you need to do more reps. Competence is built through reps and compounding effort. And that is where sporting analogies really work. You know, you don't get stronger in the gym just by looking at the weights and setting an intention. You know, you have to do the reps. After no rep is there. After no single rep is there any noticeable difference. It's only when you compound those reps over a long enough period of time and look back can you build the strength that you're looking for. Right. And I find this with act as well. So it's really aligned with sort of a bit of an athletic mentality, which is it's okay, the guarantee is failure. You're not going to live up to this stuff all the time. But if we can help you get super clear on what you most deeply care about, then you'll be willing to get up, you'll be willing to sit with the discomfort. And that willingness is such an important piece. You'll be willing to sit with the discomfort and you'll be. And over time and with lots of practice, you'll get better at this. And so we can develop this as a learnable, trainable skill. And one of the parts, again, that I love about it, Stano, is that if you are willing to do the work, then it is a meta skill that will apply across everything you do. For me, that's like anger as a dad, fear and doubt imposter syndrome at work. Whether it's sadness, grief, whatever it might be, with the loss of dad or friends or know what have you. The same set of skills can be applied in all these different settings. And I love that it's learnable, trainable. It's not some. Yeah, it's not a mythical process. You know, you don't have to have a faith. You can bring faith into it by all means. It's very like, yeah, whatever religion or faith that you might subscribe to, that's all welcome in whatever guides you and drives your values. And then if we can unhook and manage the stress and pressure in a different way, then what you see is leaders who then take the action that they already know they should be taking, but perhaps have been avoiding. And so it's way more about avoidance and managing avoidance and helping them stop avoiding than it is about. I need more information. We are drowning in information. What we need is the ability to work with our discomfort, open up to it, recognize using mindfulness, that we still have a choice here, and then choose our response because we can't control our reaction, we can't control the world around us as we so obviously say, you know, the last however many years. Forever, really. Yeah. But we can choose our response. So how do you choose, you know, and how are you going to choose that response? What values do you want to display here? What objectives? Who's important? What's important?

Shannon (51:01)

I love that distinction between the confidence and the competence. Because if your story teaches us anything, in some ways it's that even at the highest pinnacle of something, confidence can still have its wobbles, you know, like it's never sort of done and dusted in that sense, but the competence and that commitment and that values based action, you know, to persist and to keep going. And you know that we're certainly not all Olympic athletes, but it does, it applies to all sorts of areas of our lives, whether it's that moment when we just arrive home, the kids are inside, everyone's running amok, it's happy hour, and we just pause, breathe, sort of connect with a sense of present moment awareness and acceptance. We sort of open up to what maybe is happening inside and we step in based on our values, you know, like it's still that same. We might not be kind of super confident that this is going to go great, but with practice and repetition we can kind of get there with, with developing our competence and our competence and our action and so on.

Toby Jenkins (52:13)

Yeah, and I think, I mean, yeah, it is. That's exactly right. And that's. Yeah, the gift of the learnable, trainable skill, I think is really part of it. And in some respects I'd sort of think of my coaching as both coaching and skill acquisition, you know, because. Yeah, if you can. And skill acquisition, of course, is learning something just like you helped me learn ride the bike Bait. You know, at the beginning I wasn't very good.

Shannon (52:48)

I'm going to take, I'm going to take that on. I taught this Olympian how To ride a bike, you beauty.

Toby Jenkins (52:54)

Yeah, but I mean, you know, everyone wobbles when they start learning to ride a bike. Everyone falls off like it is a guarantee, I promise you that. But then if you do it enough times and you, you know, not everyone ends up, you know, winning the Tour de France, of course, but you know, you can get up a competence curve very quickly. And it's not necessarily about winning the Tour de France. And of course there are lots of values. Values questions that have been cast over all that too. Right. Over time. But yeah, but it's. I think, yeah, one of the beauties of it is to see it as a learnable, trainable skill. And then therefore, okay, well, if I put in effort, I will get better at this and recognize it as a learning curve rather than a, I have this or I don't like that kind of binary thinking of I'm not a confident person or I'm not confident in this area. Yeah, you can learn some skills to improve those sorts of things.

Shannon (53:56)

Well, this is interesting. So if we kind of, just to kind of come closer to the end of our conversation. But, but circling back, I guess, to compassion, I guess. And if we think about being open and present and values driven, what for you is the place for compassion there? Or even self compassion, and how does that relate to your model? But also the role of all of that in high performance.

Toby Jenkins (54:30)

Yeah, so I think compassion, I mean, there's potentially an argument to say that compassion is across the lot, right? Yeah, I mean it definitely is and I think almost sits at the heart of the ACT model and psychological flexibility generally. But you know, compassion for. So for me, I would say compassion is the ongoing, you know, is again an ongoing process. I would say that it is that ability to meet discomfort and unhelpful, challenging inner experiences for ourselves initially anyway, with love and kindness in order to. Not to make it go away, but to recognize that it's a part of the human experience. I also think, well, there's a great quote that I love in Buddhism which is, you know, you can travel the world and find no one more deserving of your kindness and compassion than yourself. And I do think it really starts with the person in the mirror. When I think about it in a high performance context, it's a willingness to accept or meet failure with. Okay, well that is a, you know, or learning, you know, in. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a high performance context. Learning anything right. In a new relationship or what have you is to meet yourself with a bit of compassion. The other person to say, well, we're both learning here, and I'm learning here, and of course there will be failure. That is actually the guarantee and failure. And there's the reframe of, I haven't failed. I've just learned something new. Sometimes that feels like it's putting lipstick on the pig. In my view, I would prefer to own the fact that I feel like this is a failure and validate that and meet that then with it's okay to feel the compassion. Then piece is it's okay to feel like I've failed as a dad for yelling at my kid or, you know, butchering a work situation for some reason or whatever it might be. It's okay to feel like I have failed or I will meet that feeling with compassion and love and kindness, and then I will make a new choice. Okay, well, now what have I learned from that? And I think that's perhaps another lesson for me. Stano around this stuff is like, sometimes these really challenging, unhelpful, difficult feelings that we have, sometimes there are kernels of usefulness in them. Right. And nearly always there are, because those experiences are trying to keep us safe. They're trying to protect us. And so there are lessons there. And I do like, there's something about, like, really meeting the reality of what you're thinking and feeling and accept, you know, and again, with practice, coming to accept that I do feel like a failure at times and that that is a very human experience. And. Yeah. So the constant reframing, I find, like, it almost invalidates that feeling of like. Or can be invalidating if I'm. I'm saying, oh, you're not a failure, you know, if, you know, you're back in the war with yourself in the mind, as opposed to, it's okay to feel like a failure. Let's meet it with some compassion. Sorry, I feel like I'm going in circles here, but just to sort of bring that back. Yeah.

Shannon (58:31)

The two words for me that are coming up is kind of validation and encouragement, really, you know, that the first bit is to validate whatever our feelings might be. We have tricky brains where humans who, you know, kind of. It's sort of in. It's part of the design, really, to feel all of those things. And we want to be able to validate that, that it makes sense, that it's reasonable. And plus, we then think, you know, well, so what. What might I learn? What might I do next? Let's kind of try this or that or keep going or, you know, some sort of helpful action. That we might encourage ourselves with. And, and it's kind of the power that is in the two together, you know, in a way in terms of self compassion and compassion.

Toby Jenkins (59:16)

Yeah. And it's sort of back, you know, again, full circle, but it's sort of back to that yin Yang idea. Right. Like we, if, if we only spend time, you know, so we choose the black as suffering. If we just say it's all suffering, then that's, there's, you know, the kernel of truth is the white dot in the black. In the black and the kernel of truth is the black dot in the white. Right. And so if we can see the whole of that and accept that that is actually our lived experience and work, try to work with all of that somehow in a really meaningful sense rather than grasping after the aspirational components or the feel good components, then if we can work and see all of that, that this person, that I feel like a failure and I am okay. At the same time, like if we can hold those two things to me, that's sort of the practice of compassion is that, is that seeing of the wholeness of that and actually that without, without the I'm a failure story, we're actually missing a piece of the puzzle. And there is not the wholeness necessarily. Like that might be the painful bit, might be the bit that makes the wholeness, you know.

Shannon (60:27)

Yeah, no, that's, that's beautiful. The, the compassion for the, the whole person, the whole experience, the whole reality of things. Well, yeah, that might be a place for us to finish, I think. Toby Jenkins. I mean it's really, it is wonderful to, for me too, just to sort of get some one on one time to really dig into your experience with all of this. And it's, it's, it's sort of fascinating and sort of impressive and kind of. There's a lot of learning and lessons to come out of that for all of us. But also. Yeah. Thank you very much for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.

Toby Jenkins (61:11)

Thanks, Dano. Thank you for having me, mate. I really appreciate it. I love this conversation. Thanks, mate.