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Compassion in a T-Shirt
Self-Criticism’s Hidden Role And Why Compassion Matters | Mary Welford
01:06:39
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl, and welcome back to Compassion in a T shirt. Today we're diving into something that we all wrestle with, self criticism. Why do we do it? What purpose does it serve? And could it actually be helping us in unexpected ways? We're unpacking that and more with someone who's been there right from the beginning of Compassion Focused Therapy. I'm thrilled to be joined by Dr. Mary Welford, clinical psychologist, CFT author, trainer, and one of the founding members of the Compassionate Mind Foundation. In her recent blog, Mary reflects on her early encounters with Professor Paul Gilbert's work on shame and self criticism and how those experiences helped shape both her clinical direction and the development of CFT itself. Mary is the author of three wonderful books, the Compassionate Mind Approach to Building Self Confidence, Compassion Focused Therapy for Dummies, and the Kindness Workbook with Elaine Beaumont, all of which have guided countless people in understanding their inner critic and cultivating more compassionate ways to relate to themselves. This conversation is full of warmth, wisdom, and a few surprises about what self criticism may be trying to do. And so I bring you Dr. Mary Welford.
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B
Great. Okay. Well, Dr. Mary Welford, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
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C
Thank you very much for inviting me, Stan.
- [01:41]
B
Lovely to get to chat with you. And I did read from you recently a blog that you wrote for Balance for the Balanced Minds website, I guess, and. And yeah, it just really sort of struck a chord. I mean, that was. You started talking about how you really discovered Paul Gilbert's work, I guess, you know, sort of early on, and especially some of the work around shame and self criticism. And. And I guess I wondered whether you could take us back, first of all, to. To sort of that moment or around that time, like what. What was happening in your clinical work, I guess, or, you know, that made CFT or what was to become CFT perhaps feel like it was the missing piece there.
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C
Yeah, yeah, I suppose. I'd completed my clinical training and I went into a department where we had a very long waiting list. And one of the things that I. I found that really hard. I found it really. It was at the time where you had physical files, you know, so it wasn't even a database. You had this presence, this filing cabinet, multiple filing cabinets with literally people in it. And so I found that really difficult and with the help of people like Adrian Wells or, you know, who was very well known in a c. Metacognitive therapy, where what we set about, a number of us to do was to go through the filing cabinet and pull together Everybody who maybe was referred with depression, everybody who was referred with social anxiety, everybody who was referred with, you know, kind of ptsd. And we looked at, well, we, we developed research where we would see all of those people. So we had kind of like case series. And the thing is that I love cbt. You know, I love it and it was a very metacognitive CBT approach to things. I love it because it gives me a protocol because it kind of, you know, there is, at the end of therapy, hopefully people have a method by which they can address things going forward, etc. And certainly it was, you know, looking at the research, looking at the outcomes that, that we had, it was transformational for some people. So some people really did well, did well at 3, 612 month follow up. However, there was, that didn't, you know, kind of like see the whole picture. So the whole picture actually involved. There was a lot of people who never came onto the research because they had lives that were messy and maybe they had multiple things going on or people who came onto the trials and would say, intellectually I get, doesn't make a jot of difference to how I feel. So I know that, for example, it's very unlikely that I'll have a panic attack or that people will reject me. I know that I'm loved, I know that I'm cared for, and yet I still feel like it, you know, kind of, I'm not loved, I'm not cared for, there's something wrong with me. So all of these different things, you'd have people who would do well during the course of the therapy and then at 3, 612 months they'd crash and burn, you know. So I suppose that I felt as if I had tools, I had a way of working that would be helpful to some people and that's great. However, I want to turn my attention to those who. It wasn't cutting the mustard, as we might say. It wasn't kind of like landing, it wasn't doing something. And I remember going along to a British association for Behavioral and Cognitive psychotherapies conference. So BabCP and I'd been along to lots of the CBT trainings and workshops and I, I wanted to do something different. And there was just this, you know, title CBT as it was called then, for shame and self criticism. And there was something about it that I thought, you know, number one, I quite like novelty. Number two, actually, that resonates with me and some of the kind of like the things that I was finding more tricky to address and with people and also with myself. And I went along and just, I suppose, sat and it stopped me in my tracks. I suppose that was the thing. I went from going to other presentations during the course of the conference, etc, and learning and intellectualizing and writing lots of notes and thinking, oh, actually, you know, yes, I could do this and I could do that with that person to being in a workshop that stopped me in my tracks. And it was an experience and that fundamentally changed things for me. It was just something about, okay, so what is this about? And I think, I think that then, you know, no doubt, yes, I went away with skills and tools that I could use. It was more about the experience of it. And then it was that, that I wanted to learn more about experience, more about. And also share.
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B
The fascinating thing there is that it was your own experience of moving from knowing to feeling. And this was exactly one of the things that had been a challenge, I guess, for your work with clients and patients. And so there was something very. Yes, it was just, it stopped you in your tracks. It just kind of inspired so much possibility, I suppose, just that, that experience, that, that kind of felt sense of what it's like to, to make a shift. I, I really relate to things like, you know, you mentioned the, the wait list problem too. You know, that that's, you know, when, when people are put on a wait list, they tend to just wait and, you know, and, and so change is, is hard. And then when they come, you know, sometimes, sometimes, you know, the CBT was working very well. And then other times there was this sort of, I think they call it sort of the head heart lag type of an experience where the, the feeling wasn't quite there. And, and that was what perhaps, I guess it was Paul's workshop offered you.
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C
Yeah, yeah. I think that there's something about, you know, again, when you're working in research, so, you know, I was working in clinical department, we were still seeing general waiting lists, but we were also parallel to that, doing the research. The, you know, when you are delivering, evaluating an approach, you have really got to stick to, you know, they're kind of like the protocol and, and, you know, there is a finite amount of appointments as there is nowadays anyway, in lots of services, you know, but maybe at that time that was a bit different. So we're talking about, you know, this being early 2000s, where there wasn't as much emphasis on, you know, a finite amount of appointments within clinical services. But it also made sense to me about, you know, those. I suppose as a As a clinician, those sessions that you have where you think that was really important, I think that was pivotal. That was. And yet I didn't, I wouldn't be able to write down at the time why it was, you know, I couldn't operationalize necessarily why certain experiences were. All the wording around it were helpful to people. And again, what CFT gave me is an explanation of why those sessions maybe had been important. It was about de. Shaming. It was about understanding that we are, you know, kind of like bullying ourselves and not in an intellectual way, but in a, in a moving way. It was about tuning into distress. And of course, on, you know, kind of like cbt, you know, you can, on CBT evaluations, you can think of that as being, you know, appropriate emotional expression, as being, you know, kind of like part of CBT. I'm 100% not saying that these things are not part of CBT, whereas CFT puts them front and center for me anyway.
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B
You sort of mentioned how you might divvy up the list in terms of diagnostic categories and things like that. So how did you start sort of seeing people differently or perhaps formulating them differently and that sort of thing as you kind of move towards this lens of understanding, you know, more so trans diagnostic concepts like shame and self criticism.
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C
And so, yeah, yeah, I mean, you always have got to. So my natural instinct would be not to divvy up, you know, kind of like to. However, when you're in a service and you need, you know, kind of like resources and you know that you need to do something different other than just taking the next person, that that's what led to us thinking, right, let's do some research. Let's kind of like, let's get more people to the table, let's go through ethics, let's do all of these different things so that we can work through that. But my natural instinct maybe was to, you know, connect with the human being and to notice the, the similarities between. But again, I suppose, you know, the strap line for CFT has, has become and remains, you know, an approach for working with shame and self criticism. So that becomes the focus, you know, that becomes the, the thing that the areas that I'm tracking because fundamentally I do believe that those things are really, really important. You know, so it's not me kind of, I don't know, trying to shoehorn my. What would it be trying to shoehorn people into a therapy. I just fundamentally believe that shape and self criticism, you know, can I underpin so much psychological distress, you know, and again, when they talk about the strap line of cft, you know, sometimes the terms self criticism can, in actual fact it can, it can sometimes not focus therefore or on other ways of self to self relating. So even though the strap line is about self criticism, actually it's, it's, it's more than that. You know, kind of like there's all manner of different ways that we can relate to ourselves that can be problematic. So there is a, it becomes focused but then there's also a broadening around that and the different ways that we might feel shame, you know, experience that. The different ways that we can relate to ourselves, which is often referred to in CFT terms as self criticism. But it could be, you know, it could be self loathing, it could be an anxious kind of like way of relating to ourselves. So yeah, that's, that's the lens that I now and have done for a long time, focus.
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B
Yeah, that piece there really helps me. Actually. I thank you for that, for that last little insight because I had a client this week who we were doing a bit of the model and talking a little bit about self criticism and was that sort of a thing and so on. And he really sort of brought a more nuanced look at it. He was sort of like, it's not really self criticism per se, it's more self doubting. And as we unpacked it, I thought actually yeah, I can see what he means there. That they are, they're kind of still in those self conscious emotions and the self to self relating that is kind of in that social threat sort of part of things. But it's, it's, it's kind of overlapping but distinct as well. So yeah, what you were saying there about how it brings focus and broadening, I think that's really, really clever.
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C
Yeah, well, you know, kind of like the thing is, is that when we, when we train people in cft, you know, one of the things that, and this is largely clinicians but not exclusively, you know, one of the exercises that we do is get, you know, invite people to think about a situation where they've maybe had a go at themselves, maybe things haven't gone so well. That's been tricky. And thinking about if they could see that part of them as separate to them, what would they look like? You know, what would their facial expression be? And so it's an awareness building exercise. And one of the questions that then it asks is what emotions is it directing your way? You know, and, and then, you know, kind like we finish the exercise, we do something else and then go through a list of questions. And again there are a lot of people who will say anger, you know, they will say the gestures are finger wagging, the face is scowling, all of these different things. And in a, but in an audience of people that we're training, there are also maybe more of a disgust or an aura disappointed way or a, an anxious, you know, or a doubting. These are the things that actually people bring. So to I do kind of, I think to only look for the self criticism is maybe, even though that's often the dominant one, you know, actually it hones it down. And yeah, the language of your person who you're speaking to about doubt has meaning to them, you know, so actually, you know, then it's about exploring that and, and using that language and dropping the self criticisms or self critic and things like that. And what, what would you therefore call it? Because then if we're aware of it and maybe we can formulate what that is about where that comes from, you know, what function it's serving or what function you want it to serve, you know, kind of, or hoping that it serves, then you can start to, to, to work with that.
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B
Yeah, it's really understanding the motives behind it sort of thing and, and those bits and pieces. It was very interesting because as he and I went on to speak, One of the functions I think of the self doubting was to keep a little bit buried some anger that actually was there but not so much directed at himself but directed at the way he felt he had been kind of treated by others and he had been, you know, because of his doubting though as well, he'd been a bit self sacrificing and he found it hard to back himself or be assertive. And yeah, so it was, it really was all part of like you say, a kind of multi, multi mind, multifaceted experience for him. There's a, there's a little part of the blog where you talk about, I think it was CFT for, For Dummies. You were talking about a book with Paul and, and I don't know, there was, there was something like that that was there in your mind I suspect like a sort of a, a, a sort of a worry not wanting to be, you know, putting it, promote self promotion or putting yourself forward too much and, and, and Paul just sort of said well you know, it's, it's not about you, it's, it's, it's about the book and, and, and the ideas there in the book, which I just thought Was such a. So much kind of wisdom wrapped up in that little, little statement, this sort of reframing statement. What did you notice there, I guess, in terms of your relationship? Was, was self criticism in that mix? Was it. Was it perhaps a. An adjacent kind of a thing? Yeah. What are your thoughts there?
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C
I think I, I've done really quite well out of being really quite brutal with myself.
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B
Okay.
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C
I kind of think that I grew. I grew up being really harsh on myself. Lots of social comparison, lots of looking at myself and, you know, kind of like not. Not liking myself or aspects of myself and wanting to be different. And, you know, this is, this is the thing did me quite well, you know, kind of like I did use it to motivate myself or to. Or to organize myself in certain ways. So, you know, I would. I, you know, sometimes to get things done or to change things, you know, I would be quite brutal with myself, adapting myself to social situations, all manner of different things. And, and with that comes, of course, some degree of shame. You know, if you, if you knew certain things about me, you wouldn't like me. You know, there's something fundamentally wrong or, you know, other people seem to have it. Okay. And there's something flawed. You know, can I. And, and as a sent. As I say, I'm articulating it, we know that shame is a felt, you know, experience. So I'm trying to map words onto that. But yeah, I grew up really being quite brutal with myself and feeling sh. And therefore contorting, performing, adjusting myself. And so the thing is, is that, you know, I managed to get through clinical training. I managed to do a degree, my first degree. I managed to develop friendships, have relationships. I also, though, really struggled in certain areas. So I actually would have times where I was really quite anxious. I'd have times when I was really quite low. I'd have times when I would have real struggles with body image and. And all sorts of different things. So, yes, it was doing. It was serving a function, you know, kind of like in some respects. And, And I do think that, you know, when. When people say, will it serve no function at all? You know, actually it. I can. It was seven. A function. It was the only skill set that I had, you know, kind of like. And it was doing me okay in a sense, but it had all of these, you know, kind of like negative consequences to it. And, and I would just feel unsettled socially at times and things. So as I, as I said at the start, CBT gave me a toolkit. You know, it gave Me, something that I still to this day. Tools that are really, really important within, you know, kind of like my clinical work. Was I using them on myself?
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B
No, no.
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C
You know, I wasn't kind of doing a downward arrow and, you know, challenging my thoughts and things because I, I, I knew that they were there and they were so familiar to me. And, and, you know, class, again, classic cbt. We are building an alternative. You know, kind of like quite often we are building an alternative, but I had no Velcro to stick that on, you know, so, so I could, I could come up with. Oh, yeah, you know, can I? Yeah, I believe that certain, you know, kind of like 80%, 90%, etc. It wouldn't make a difference to me. And I think that. So therefore, you know, cft. The introduction of CFT was also a journey for me about slight layers of the onion, you know, where, where something's landing with you and you're curious about it and you play around with the ideas and you apply it a bit, and then, you know, you go a bit deeper and a bit deeper and a bit deeper and a bit deeper. And, and yeah, I get to the point at which I've written one book. I've written the second book, you know.
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B
And actually it was the first book, wasn't it? It was the first book that actually that one was about.
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C
Yeah, it kind of like. But I, you know, can I still learn? It's that work in progress.
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B
Okay.
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C
Type thing. And I think this is why we need others. You know, this is why we, you know, you can do lots and lots of work on ourselves. We still need others to point things out. So, yeah, so how that, how that actually happened was so Paul used to come around because, you know, I was fascinated about the CFT stuff. And, you know, as a person who coordinated training in the Northwest, in the Northwest region, whenever we had committee meetings and they were saying, which, which people do you want to, you know, kind of like, come and present? Who should we invite this year? I'd be just saying, should we have Paul Gilbert? And number one, it was because he was, he was a really personable, you know, person to come and along. It was no hassle. He would, he would rock up and he would be, you know, sociable and easygoing, etc. And also he would, you know, do his stuff. He'd also arrive with a bag of books. Every time he'd arrive with a bag of books, and he would then, you know, kind of like sell them at cost to his audience. And, you know, and Write in them. And he had to kind of like he enjoyed, you know, kind of like writing things in them. And so when it came to me, he, you know, and I, he said, mary, you know, can I hope you're going to be, you know, promoting this, taking the books round. And I was like, I couldn't do that, Paul. That would just be too much. It'd be too self promoting. It would just be, oh, I just couldn't do it. It'd be uck, it'd be difficult. And he just said, Mary, what does that say about what you think of me?
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B
Oh, okay. Yeah.
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C
And. And it's not about you. Yeah, it's about the book. And I kind of think, you know, so, so it was those two things. And of course I didn't think he was self promoting. I didn't think, I just thought he was being kind, you know, kind of like I thought he was being kind and bringing books up that, you know, we could get cheaper than buying in the bookshop, you know, or something like that. So, so I was able to clarify that with him. I was able to kind of like say, no, no, it isn't you. But yeah, it's not about me. It. And I think that's really, really important. Being, being a conduit, you know, that's really important for me about. Actually it isn't about me. I've learned stuff by virtue of my experiences, life experiences, work experiences, sitting with, you know, lots of people and talking with lots of people. I've learned lots of things and therefore it, it's been a conduit of that. So that's why I like doing training. And I still get anxious and I still, you know, can like think to myself, why did I do this? And then I kind of like go, this is why I'm doing it. Because I'm a conduit. Because I believe passionately in these ideas.
- [29:31]
B
And practices and way of doing in that moment. I guess Paul was kind of the compassionate other in a way, you know, being able to. Speak a little truth there to you or something like that. In a way that was with his characteristic, you know, charm and quirky humor probably and whatever else and, but, but also, yes, the deep wisdom of it and that that compassionate sort of piece was able to kind of come across to you and you're able to, yeah. Sort of reframe things in your own mind. I mean, so many people just grapple with that feeling that the self criticism and so on is kind of helpful for them. And yeah, we're probably not it's probably not quite right to try to sort of demonstrate to them that it's. That it's completely not. I suppose, you know, there's a. I feel like I relate to that too. You know, that the sort of self criticism and, and sort of. It can certainly be a motivator. It's just that it comes off with. With the sting in the tail. Comes along with a sting in the tail or. Yeah, trade offs like that. Yeah.
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C
You know, the thing is is that again, if you, if you're living in a house and it's got a roof, you know, and it's serving kind of like, you know, and it's a bit leaky and it ca, you know, there's problems. Things like do you smash it down or do you try and build, you know, and the thing is is that if we build an alternative then we might move into that if it, if it's, you know, better fit for us. So. So the thing is, is that if, See, you know, can like one of the questions is would you be interested in, you know, kind of like talking about learning, considering whatever the language is a different way of relating to yourselves that has the benefits that you attribute to. And, and some of them might be actually benefits, some of them might not be. Would you be interested in learning or developing or considering a way of relating to yourself that has all of the benefits or all of the. Without the drawbacks, you know, and it's the cultivation of that, that then. And it's the, the practice of that, the returning to that and the strengthening of that that then we can move towards it and we can move towards it more and more and then eventually that actually becomes our way of relating to ourselves. And every so often there's echoes, you know, ever so often given a certain set. Set of circumstances were back. And it's noticing, you know, that's where the mindfulness comes, you know, kind of. And the awareness comes in. It's noticing is this, you know, kind of like in a term that's used a lot these days is. Is this serving me? And if strengthened and built and cultivated an alternative, you know, actually as well as those relationships around you as well, you know, kind of like. So I kind of think that whether it be, you know, the, the self help, you know, kind of like literature which I'm kind of like, you know, I've contributed to, you know, individual therapy, etc. Etc. There is sometimes unfortunately a, in my mind anyway an emphasis on us sorting ourselves out, you know, and us doing the work. And I Still think that it's others, you know, it's also that piece about having other people who can assist us, can help us. Because you know what? Sometimes no matter with all of my practice and imagery and all manner of different things, I still at times need somebody to say, you know, it doesn't matter or you did the best that you could or it's understandable that you feel like that or this is, or whatever it is, you know, there is that, there is that kind of like need for that, you know, kind of like. And, and that's why, you know, in therapy we're not just the, I, I don't think, we're not just thinking about legacy as in what are the tools, what are the practices. It's, it's changing lives, changing relationships, you know, so that people have got an external to tap into as well as an internal, you know, I mean you're.
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B
Really speaking, I suppose a bit to the three flows in a way there, isn't it? That's why we're really trying to think about being compassionate towards others, but being open to receiving it. And perhaps then the self compassion piece with the self criticism, do you see it as simple? As simple as there is kind of like self improving and con or constructive self criticism and then there's shame based or self hating self criticism or, or is it actually even more complex really than that, that, that even the, the shame based self criticism can play a function and it, it may or may not be something to, to be rid of or in fact is it really just creating a wholly different way to relate to ourselves in those moments?
- [35:28]
C
So I don't know. Okay. I don't have a, you know, kind of like I, so I, when you ask that question, I think about me, okay, And I think about a younger version of me and.
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B
My.
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C
Shame self criticism meant that what I would do is socially perform, you know, so I, I, and, and of course that is a version of me, you know, kind of like it's not, it's not me becoming somebody else but, but certainly I would try and be a social chameleon, you know, like I would try to perform and adapt and I would inhibit certain aspects of me and kind of like. Sure. Other aspects of me because I felt shame about certain things and, and I would, you know, kind of like, you know, my mind would be criticizing myself and, and then you know, obviously not necessarily it conscious, but I'll show this side of me, okay. I've still got really good friends, you know, kind of like who actually were born of that time were developed of that time I have, you know, I did okay at school, you know, kind of like I. And it's part of my history, you know, kind of like it's part of me. It. I mean, right here, right now level gives me insight into some of the difficulties that other people have had because I've got lived experience of some of those things. So. So to kind of like, see it as being, you know, bad and needs to be eradicated and being playful here or, you know, something that would I want that for myself, you know, kind of like, would I have wanted myself to be. Have a, you know, kind of like a really real supportive relationship with myself? Yes, I. I most likely would have wanted that for myself. But did it. It was. It was my best efforts. So I'm not going to. I'm not going to say it was bad. It was how I found to be in the world and how I found to be in my head, you know, and it's just part of my history. So when again, when I find myself criticizing myself now or getting exasperated with myself or, you know, feeling some degree of shame about something, it's kind of. It's strange. I've changed my relationship with it. So I can then smile and go, this is of old, you know, this isn't an echo. It did me okay, you know, kind of like. But it had really damning side effects. I choose something different.
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B
Aha. Yes.
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C
You know, something different now. So I don't know, maybe I've inter. I mean, I don't know, maybe I've integrated it as being, you know, actually this is all of me. And that was something that was very dominant, you know, kind of like, you know, in the past and less so now. But there's still echoes, you know, and it's certain.
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B
Sorry, go on.
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C
Yeah, no, it's just part of me.
- [39:36]
B
And certain aspects continue, like certain aspirations you might have or goals you want to achieve or, you know, sort of, you know, kind of performing at certain levels. It's. It's. And so every now and then there's some of the old scripts come back to mind, and you sort of notice that and kind of give that a nod, but it's not really running the show. I suppose it's sort of a slightly different approach, a reframe. I think my question came from. I was thinking about. About elite athletes and. And whether there was a level of achievement or performance. And now I'm being a little bit loose with it too. But whether there is a level of achievement or performance that only comes from a certain type of, you know, very harsh and hard self criticism or, you know, whether that's more just like a sort of a fear of self compassion thing within me that just assumes that. And there is, there is in fact another route there as well to elite performance.
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C
It's fascinating. So, you know, the thing is, is that I started working with athletes because I was working in schools and I wanted to make the stuff cool and relevant. And because this psychologist who was working in school, who was doing assemblies and doing collapsed time to, you know, and also offer one to one work, you know, kind of like some, there was some very open door with that. There was some like, yeah, you know, like I'm in. And then there was a lot of people who were just like, what the, what on earth is this? You know, what is the point in this? So I, I kind of like decided that I was going to try and get some kind of like elite, elite athletes to come in to school and to talk about some of their stuff. And at the time, again, things converge. So I, I was doing some work with a sports psychologist as well. And because they, quite a lot of people would come in through the performance angle, but it was a clinical issue, you know, kind of like. And then they didn't have the skill set maybe to work with the clinical, you know, issue. So there was a number of reasons why I started to work with, you know, kind of like athletes and, and I would always say about, you know, young children, you know, learn to support yourself, you know, learn equip. If I was doing some coaching with, you know, kind of like, well, not me doing the coaching, but contributing to the coaching of the kids in school, you know, it would be to, to learn to support themselves and be their own cheerleader and all of that sort of. So they've got an alternative. So that would be that. But then with the elite athletes, is it when you, when as a clinician, when you first meet an elite athlete, they have got themselves to a pretty high point and quite a lot of them are highly self critical and they don't want to disrupt. You know, there's a, there is a. Oh, you know, can I actually it's got me to where I am and.
- [43:30]
B
Almost a superstition sort of or something in a way.
- [43:34]
C
Well, yeah, you know, kind of like it's, you know, and literally some people will really be, you know, and social media is full actually if you look or certainly my algorithm on it because I watch it, therefore it shows me of athletes kind of like being really harsh with themselves, really pushing themselves and you know, kind of like it's done me no harm and this is how I've, you know, done it. And you know, other people have been really brutal with me and that's been the making of me, you know, so. And who am I to say, you know, kind of like that's the thing. Who, who am I to say? However, when I have somebody in front of me who's also struggling with X, Y and Z, it comes down to, right, okay, we've got to maybe a choice. You know, this has been serving you, you know, and you attribute all of these different things to it. Maybe in a different aspect of your life you could try something different, you know, kind of like and maybe starting there and how is that working to for you and then maybe importing that into their performance, sports and things. But, but no, you know, kind of like you get a lot of people who are really, really quite harsh and, and some of the, you know, the coaching and those side of, you know, things, you know, you've got some really high profile coaches who've done very well, being really ruthless with their squads, with their teams and then they will attribute the success. Well, it, it's certain individuals who do well with that type of, you know, coaching at what cost, of course, I would say. But then what happens to the ones who actually, that type of coaching style isn't a good fit for them because they're crumple. It really affects their confidence, therefore their performance, their mindset, all sorts of different things. I think it's snorting and I think, you know, it's that meeting somebody and asking how, how's that working for you? You know, what are the drawbacks and being curious and not therefore assuming that our work is to change that and to go alongside somebody and, and consider, you know, kind of like, you know, speak with them and you know, introduce something maybe different, a different way of relating those rather than getting rid of the old, the old way.
- [46:14]
B
Yes. When we say to someone, you know, how's that working for you? It really isn't. We're not asking that in order to sort of ambush them about how it's not working for them. You know, like it's a genuine question and we really want to understand the many and varied ways that it's sort of come into their life and how it has functioned. Like you say, it's often the person sort of doing the best they can with what they've got and what, what they've been exposed to and learned and And I like that idea though, of. I guess it's a, It's a type of psychological flexibility where we can sometimes approach certain things in a certain way. But maybe there's other areas of your life where, you know, you can try a different approach, you know, try a different approach over there at home in your relationship, say, even if you continue this, this current approach in the sport. And, and I've, I've had a number of people lately who are now kind of retired elite athletes because often, you know, there's a, there's an end point, especially if it's a more physical game or something. And it, there's a whole lot of unlearning that sort of has to. Well, not. Not has to, but there's an opportunity to kind of unlearn some of that then, now that we're in a whole different phase. And there can be grief there, I think too, when, when that people are faced with that kind of unlearning. I've raved on a bit there, but yeah, it's sort of like you say, very interesting.
- [47:47]
C
Yeah, I wholeheartedly, you know, can I agree with that? I think, you know, again, it's people. It's important for us to recognize people live and die being critical of themselves. You know, people live and die not, not, you know, kind of like accessing, you know, their anger or, you know, suppressing their anger. And you know, the thing is, is that our role or. Certainly I think my role is when I have somebody, you know, who's coming along to, to see me by virtue of that there is something that they're struggling with, you know, kind of like, and, and so therefore it's with the, the knowledge that, you know, I've gained over the years that, you know, let's problem solve, you know, kind of like around it. Now there's another part of my work which is not, you know, kind of like what I would call, you know, kind of like acute, well, clinical. You know, I do lots of general population stuff working in the school, you know, it's general population stuff. And again, it's. It's about sharing ideas and things and examples and practices and psychoeducation and all that sort of. So that people have more choice, you know, but, but not to assume that that's going to land for people or be appropriate for people, et cetera. And you know, the piece about self criticism, I always remember working with a guy, an incredible guy who had a diagnosis of bipolar, you know, and he'd had some real, real depressions and he Died some real, real kind of like, as he would call them, highs. And we worked for a period of time and you know, classic CFT three circles is a really good fit to understand, you know, the drive, but also the, the hopelessness, the helplessness. And, you know, I had the benefit of seeing him kind of like maybe once a year for about four years after we'd seen each other. And he was still somebody who would have mood variations. However, he hadn't had a real big low and he hadn't had a real big high either, which he was kind of like grateful for, but kind of missed a little bit. And he said to me in our last session, you know, Mary, if it is that, bottom line, I've been in bed for a month because that's what would happen and not having his windows open, I reserve the right to actually give myself a real hard time because actually that's what I sometimes in the past I have needed to get up out of the door, you know, and it, and it's kind of like, you know, it always sticks with, you know, we laughed and I was like, absolutely. You know, kind of like, actually I want you to have that as being the option because I want you to have as many options as options.
- [51:11]
B
Yes, yes.
- [51:13]
C
You know, but for me to kind of like say no, but that would mean that that's highly correlated with, you know, this way that we relate to ourselves is highly correlated with this, that and the other and blah, blah, blah. Actually, you know, he was just like saying, I reserve the right, you know, we left.
- [51:32]
B
But, but there's, there's wisdom in us, isn't there? That, that, that notion of. Yeah, we're trying to, to build more options, really. And the options might be different in different contexts too, or different kind of scenarios and certain options, you know, and that flexibility to move amongst the options, even if sometimes it means going back to sort of more harsher ways of self relating maybe, or, you know, but then see how it works and kind of then come back to the newer ways or.
- [52:07]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that is, that's really important. It's the contract, you know, if we can have. Oh, actually, yeah, I remember. That doesn't do me so well. I tried it again and I'm going to cultivate this one. I'm going to go back to this one. That's really good, isn't it? Yeah, you know, it's, it's actually, it reminds you then that a more compassionate relationship with ourselves, a more supportive relationship with ourselves and others and a more Real, you know, authentic relationship with ourselves and others is, is, is better. Sometimes we need that reminder.
- [52:48]
B
Yes, yes. It's part of really respecting the person and respecting choices and a kind of a, their, their own discovery of these things through experience and, and, and really, really feeling it. A lot of your writing is sort of so nicely grounded and human and relatable and just as this conversation has felt actually just that it's sort of trying to. Yeah. Not make compassion seem grand and mystical or something or sort of, but rather, you know, it's often the small things done, you know, consistently and bringing them into, I guess, our day to day. You've mentioned a couple of your own experiences. I wonder, like, what do you personally practice to sort of cultivate this more compassionate part or perhaps these compassionate relationships with others in your daily life?
- [53:49]
C
I think, you know, in the early days. So if I speak to my journey with that as the kind of like the X factor kind of like way of saying things. But yeah, you know, in the early days what I needed to do is to keep returning to the training. So, you know, kind of like the, the thing is, is. And the conversations I had the benefit of, you know, there was a number of us who used to meet in Derby before CFT had the, the kind of like the term cft and it was a returning to the, it was the structure of that. It was, you know, kind of like going on training again that I'd been on before. You know, kind of like to, to sit, to be, to. To kind of like connect with the material in a different way. It was also being around other people. And I think that that was really important for me. And I think that's a bit like therapy, you know, kind of like sometimes we kind of know that something might be helpful to us. We still need the structure, we still need the, the relationship I suppose to, to remind us to scaffold, to. To inhabit a different way of being. And then we go back to our everyday life and we go back to how things. But you know, it's that returning, returning. So it started off with that and then I think there was more of, you know, I went on a number of retreats and again immersed myself in different, you know, not, not CFT ones because we didn't have CFT ones at the time. But you know, compassion retreats and mindfulness retreats and things like that. And I think that's what, you know, I, I need. And then I found that I was sprinkling it into my everyday life, you know, so I, I just Found that what naturally happened is I was so. I wasn't somebody who said, I'm going to, you know, set aside 20 minutes every day and I'm going to do X, Y and Z. It was actually more of the sprinkling in of things. And so. And now, you know. Can I say your question is. Is around now is. It's. I've gone from intellectually understanding it, kind of like sitting with it, practicing it, the structure of it, to actually just being, you know, so, so because I connect with, I mean like our jobs is to connect with people, we're practicing it all of the time, you know, like being it all of the time within our sessions in order to get myself into a helpful physiological and cognitive, you know, kind of. And cognitive mindset. You know, in between appointments, I'm doing little bits of practice. After appointments I'm doing little bits of, you know, kind of like, actually, let's just ground myself. Let's just, you know, don't get me wrong, there's times when I'm kind of like, right, I've got to quickly pick up my children or something like that. But that's what I, I try to do. So now I attach my practices. It's a bit weird, but I attach my practices to everyday activities. Like when I'm making a cup of tea or when I'm hanging the washing up, you know, can I. To dry instead of doing it and thinking to myself, oh God, I've got to get this, this. And I dropped my shoulders, I hang the washing out. I kind of like do it in that type of way. So it's how I live my life, you know. And again, running, training and things like that. Again, that's a great opportunity. Even though I'm doing guided practices with people, I'm doing it as well, you know, so that's how I, that's how it is for me now.
- [58:26]
B
Yeah.
- [58:27]
C
So it's, it's kind of. I don't have to have a formal and, and this might be, you know, again, it's what works for me.
- [58:36]
B
Yeah.
- [58:37]
C
And it's not a judgment on anybody else or saying how it should be. But I, and I know people who practice at set times of the day or in the week or it's just I inhabit it and sprinkled in throughout my day and my life.
- [58:58]
B
Yeah, you kind of immersed yourself in it early and went to trainings, and went to trainings again and then sort of did the retreats and so on. But it's that sort of learning, practicing, embodying kind of sequence almost, and getting to a point where it actually sprinkles in or sort of can kind of flavor all sorts of things that we might be doing in the day, including the mundane, the washing or that sort of thing, but also at work and. And in our work with others or our relationships with others, that just kind of sort of sprinkles in there. Yeah, I. I had a little insight, I think, that I started this. This YouTube channel podcast, you know, in. In a. In the same vein, really. I think it was to get the opportunity to just have regular chats with people about. About compassion, about self compassion, about all of the really great ways that people are doing it and practicing it in a way to sort of immerse myself as well. We don't have as many training opportunities locally, I guess, you know, in terms of CFT specifically. And so I think, yeah, maybe that's. That was a little bit what was behind us.
- [60:17]
C
Yeah. And then, you know, and then that structure itself, because I'm sure that. I'm not sure, I hazard a guess, the. The structure of, you know, thinking to yourself, oh, you know, like, who else can I speak to? You know, can. I haven't done that. You know, like, maybe there's been a gap or something like that.
- [60:38]
B
Yeah.
- [60:40]
C
The. The frequency by which you maybe want to get these types of talks out there will set a rhythm in your life.
- [60:49]
B
Yes.
- [60:50]
C
You know, kind of like. And this is. This is human beings, isn't it? You know, like, human. We. You know, the whole thing about, you know, religion and all of this is to return to. To return to and to have a structure. You know, I'm. I'm lucky because, you know, I. There's a lot of things that. That focus me to return to. To return to. I hazard a guess if I did a different job, then it might be really helpful for me to, you know, carve out or to protect 20 minutes every day to engage in, you know, kind of like those. Those things. Yeah, no, it's just. It's just what works for me. I mean, you know, kind of like, again, it's just a. An offshoot, might be a cul de sac, whatever. But when you're saying about, again, our personal practices. So, you know, of course, during the course of this conversation, you know, kind of like my mind goes, oh, is that a good CFT response to something? Or is that. Or have I gone a bit woolly? Or have I, you know, explained that or. Or what would Paul say about me saying, you know, kind of like around this is, you know, these are our minds. Right. And I, and I go back to that. Thing of. All I can be is representing my perspective where I am right here, right now, you know, kind of like. And I, and that's the thing that. It's not about me going back to that.
- [62:37]
B
Yeah.
- [62:38]
C
It. There. It's not about me. I've had the benefit of all sorts of different experiences, all sorts of different training. I've got lived experience of all sorts of different things as well. And this is where I'm at. You know, there's not a right and wrong and that's what I try and, you know, so, so I'm practicing it even in this conversation. Yeah. In the moment.
- [63:07]
B
Yeah, in every moment. In some ways, I, I'm, I, I'm certainly doing the same. What, what's, what's next Is, Is, is it the. How many books have you got now? Is it Right, the three of them? Yeah. Oh, what's the third one did?
- [63:27]
C
The Kindness Workbook.
- [63:28]
B
The Kindness Workbook, yes. Yes. That's great. Thanks. Yeah, I, I do actually have that one down there somewhere. Is there another book in the future? Is there other things that you're sort of planning on or working towards? What's. What's next?
- [63:46]
C
My. I've been writing something now with a lovely, lovely friend and colleague called Nicole Parrish, and we started a book a long time ago and we keep saying, let's, let's continue with that and then life gets in the way and, you know, kind of like she's had a family and all sorts and so that is, that's part written and it's for primary school, you know, kind of like children. So it's based on kind of. It's storytelling. It's getting some of the ideas across in hopefully an engaging storytelling way. I wouldn't even say watch this space because this has been rumbling for a long while. It might, if I, if I ever could, you know, finish it. But I don't know, I kind of think I quite like the idea of doing something a lot more general public as well. You know, kind of like, you know, my other books are self help, so, you know, somebody might say, well, your stuff is general public, but I think it's still with an angle of addressing a difficulty, you know, kind of like. And things. So I quite like the idea of doing that, but if I don't write anything else, I'm okay with that as well.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah. Okay, good.
- [65:18]
C
You know, I kind of like, you know, it's the things that are on the horizon. You know, I get very excited about different projects and different things, but I. I also have a life where, you know, I. I don't know, it's not all about the career side of things. It's about personal, you know, kind of like, I've got family and, you know, I've got washing to put out.
- [65:48]
B
Yeah.
- [65:49]
C
I've got a beach to walk up. You know, it's kind of like I've got a, you know, a stupid amount of life admin, you know, the kind of. So, you know, we'll see.
- [66:02]
B
You actually sound very balanced about all of that, so. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I think I might try to walk on the beach tomorrow myself. We're at other sides of the world, but we're both right near the beach, which is funny, but. Well, Dr. Mary Welford, thank you for all that. Well, there was some great ideas there. I've got heaps of takeaways from that conversation. But also, yeah, thank you for speaking with me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [66:34]
C
It. Thank you very much, Stan. It's been lovely.