← Compassion in a T-Shirt
Compassion in a T-Shirt
What Decades of Parenting Stories Taught Me About Humanity | Shevonne Hunt
00:39:43
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl, and welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt. Today I'm speaking with Siobhan Hunt, presenter, producer, writer, and someone with a deep and abiding love for human stories. You may know her as the voice behind Kindling Conversation, Feed, Play Love. And now her latest project, A Better World Blueprint, a podcast offering a hopeful antidote to our often heavy news cycle. Siobhan has spent years listening to people at the coal face of life, parenting and community. And so I bring you Siobhan Hunt. Good. Well, Siobhan Hunt, welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt.
- [00:49]
B
Thank you for having me, Stan. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [00:52]
A
Great. Yeah, I was going to go back to the early days of your podcast, actually, to begin with, and Kindling Conversations and Feed, Pray, Love. But what drew you, first of all, I guess, to the parenting space and sort of having that as a kind of an entry point really into the human experience.
- [01:11]
B
Well, it's kind of boring, really. I mean, it's boring, but it has a very crazy story in terms of how I got there. Sometimes when I tell the story about how I ended up at Kindling Kids Radio, I still can't believe it myself. But the very, very basic reason was I was a parent. But the fun story was, and it doesn't start fun, so bear with me. I'd been working at the abc and I was a contractor and I was pregnant with my second child, my son. And when you're a contractor, you kind of have to be around for the whole contract. So I was sort of between contracts. It was very awkward. And when I left, I had no guarantee that I, I would have work to come back to. So you only get a job to come back to if you're ongoing employed, which is the case everywhere. But. So I was, I was, I think my son was about four months old. I was really tired and started. Had to start applying for new contracts because he would be four months. But if I wanted to work in two months time, which was when my money was going to run out, I needed a job. And I was just so tired and I couldn't fathom going back into Breakfast Radio and with a baby that wasn't sleeping through the night. So I posted on Facebook and I said, so this is 10 years ago. Facebook was, you know, it was still kind of relevant then. Right.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I posted on Facebook and I said, I am so tired. But, but I need you guys. You guys know me. Can you tell me what I should do? Like what job do you think I could do well, because radio is not going to work for me as a mother. It doesn't feel like it fits, blah, blah, blah. And I just got the most incredible response from my friends. Unfortunately, no one gave me a job. A job, this is what you do. But there was a lot of love for the fact I changed to radio when I was 28. So I had been in advertising. So from my friend's perspective, I'd already made this big leap of faith and they were like, you've always followed your passions, what a shame, don't give up, et cetera, et cetera. But someone else who I'd worked with at the ABC saw that post and she had been approached by the founder, the co founder of Kinder Kids Radio, Evan Cowdor. And he said, look, I'm doing this thing, would you like to come on board? And for her, she had a lot of security in her work and this was a big risk, so she passed it up. But she asked me if I'd be interested and typically I'm very risk averse. I don't, I hear people saying they're doing a startup and I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't have the bandwidth to deal with that. I want a secure job. But I met with Evan and we had a cup of coffee while my son was up the road with my mum and he just asked me, we just had a chat, really talked about parenting and our values and it was unlike any. I didn't even know I was being interviewed, to be honest. I thought we were just having a conversation. And at the end of the chat he said, so I know you can do production, but how would you feel about presenting? Because that's what we need. Like we need a presenter, we need someone who might be prepared to be the face of Kindling when we need it. And so I sort of went, do that, that'd be great. And everything inside me was like, oh my God, I don't know if I'm ready for this. And it just went from there. It was the easiest job I've ever had and the most life changing one, without doubt. So while you asked me what drew me to was very strangely serendipitous that this company, which unfortunately no longer exists, Kindling Kids Radio, doesn't exist anymore. But it was founded on these really strong ethical ideas of supporting families, but also doing it in a way that was creative and fun and cool and just, it was just the perfect package and it kind of fell in my lap, so I couldn't I couldn't quite believe my luck. And when and when they offered me the job, I still remember where I was. I was with my mother's group. My son was in my pouch on the front of my body. I was bouncing him up and down to go to sleep. And I reacted quite strongly. I think Evan thought I was weird, but it was, it's a very long story to say it was unexpected, but it was incredible. And I appreciated it every day I did that job.
- [06:27]
A
It was a confluence of things, wasn't it? It was, it was a variety of things that all came together and the serendipity piece of it sort of was woven through. But the bit that stands out for me a little bit is in my work we often think of compassion flowing in three directions. So we're obviously compassionate towards others self compassion is kind of a thing. But being open to receiving compassion is important as well and often very difficult. And that moment when you decided to put it out there was a little bit like that. It was, it was sort of opening yourself up to, you know, just letting people know that this is where I'm at and these are some of the challenges and you know, like what do you all think sort of thing. And in some ways that was that the courage and the wherewithal to actually put that out there was kind of an important piece of that serendipity, I suppose.
- [07:27]
B
Well, I don't know if I'm just listening to too much Brene Brown, but I feel like never too much. Never too much. I feel like there is an amount of vulnerability in the story of compassion for myself. I think in a professional way, I've had to be a kind of a level of vulnerability to say compassion is important to me. Like that is. That is a guiding principle for me. I mean, I came up through, when I say came up through. I wasn't young when I started. Like I said, I was about 28 when I finally switched across to radio. But there was this idea in the world of journalism that, you know, they're kind of skeptical, kind of hard nosed, tough sort of people. And they have to be because they're trying to pursue these stories. But I was probably at that point a bit of a square peg in a round hole because for me that's not that. That's not really my primary value. And I didn't realize that for a long time. And so coming to a place where you think, where I was able to realize how important it was in everything I do that was that required me to be a little Bit vulnerable and go, well, am I going to turn up with my incredibly intelligent ABC ethical hardcore journalist friends and say that, you know, why don't we look at, why don't we, we kind of give them the benefit of the doubt. Why don't we try, you know, radical positive approach to things, do you know, like, and think the best of people before we think the worst? Because the world of media doesn't really have a lot of room for that. So yeah, I guess I think being vulnerable on a personal level can lead you into having a more compassionate life.
- [09:37]
A
Yes. Yeah, that's really an important sort of point. It can be sort of scary. We can feel vulnerable. We're never quite sure how people might react. Some of those more self conscious emotions might even arise, you know, sort of worrying about what other people think. It takes a lot of sort of strength and courage to just sort of step forward and not only to live a compassionate life but as you're doing to sort of really disseminate and promote compassion or at least, yeah, empathy and understanding and sort of the human condition and what that's like. I mean, so when you moved into this sort of world of parenting and you know, kind of children, I guess across the ages and just the challenges there that perhaps you were going through as well. And I certainly remember too, but what, what have you, what lessons have stood out, I suppose in, in, in some of that work, what it is to be a parent.
- [10:43]
B
You know, it's funny because I, I had the privilege of speaking to experts for 10 years. I think my children got the benefit of that now it's good now that I'm not doing it. They might not agree, but I, I spoke to a lot of people and I think the, the best research and the most current contemporary research was always at the forefront of my mind because people were saying the same thing in different parts of parenting. So there were like, I think the guiding principles that stay with me were things like listening to your child, being a good role model. And a lot of the stuff that they were saying was really about how to be a good person or how to evolve as a person. And I think that probably is the biggest thing I learned in those whole 10 years that I, you know, people often say, well, what I wish I'd known before I became parent. And it wasn't anything about not sleeping through the night because I think if you become a parent and think that's going to be a thing, then you aren't listening to anyone. But for me, what I learned from all those People and I think applies no matter what age your child is, is that parenting as an experience is. It's a lesson, right? It's your children will always change. They're always going to change. They're always going to be who they are, not who you want them to be. And so if you can start that experience thinking, this is an opportunity for me to evolve and grow by listening to and responding to my child. Which sounds all very highfalutin when I say it. And I'm the first person to say I've not been great at that my whole experience and probably now is the hardest time for me because I have teenagers and tweens. But I think that if you can, I think if you can give yourself that permission to say, this is a lesson and I'm going to learn, I'm going to learn from my child and I am going to grow. It's a two way street. You are giving to your. I think sometimes we define parenting or we come into parenting with this idea that firstly we have to know everything, we have to get everything right because we are protecting these precious things. These precious beings are our responsibility. I mean, I know that was one of my biggest terrors when I first became a parent was, oh my God, this is all on me. Like if she ends up in therapy, it's my fault. But that's not realistic, right? And it's, it's not true to my experience of parenting in that if I had, have. And I certainly went into it that way, right? I went into it thinking, why don't I know how to put this baby to sleep? Like, it's very hard on myself. But I think that the best lesson is to say, well, actually this is, this is my chance to learn. It's going to be hard. You know, one of my favorite.
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A
I.
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B
Don'T know if you call it a saying, but books. No mud, no lotus by Thich Nhat Hanh.
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A
Ah, yes.
- [14:21]
B
That idea that we evolve through struggle and parenting, particularly in the early years, can feel like such a struggle. You're tired, you're exhausted, you think you're doing everything wrong. I mean, you've got this incredible love, but it's this weird seesaw of emotions. And I think I would have navigated that a lot better had I come into it thinking, this is an opportunity, I'm going to make mistakes, but I'm going to learn. And I suppose the other part of that equation is if you love your kids, which most of us do, I would suggest all of us do, showing them that Love, which is pretty easy for most of us. That's the most important thing. While you're messing up, while you're learning, while you're doing all, if you can just keep that consistent and just be a little bit kind to yourself, then I think that's what I've learned about parenting, whatever age your children are. Of course, I, you know, during that time, and I also had very specific advice that I may or may not have directed the questions to things I was going through, thinking that my audience had the same problems. So there were specific things I got help with, but I think those are the. That's what I would. That's what I hope people got out of the show. Regardless of whether they were listening to tips and tricks for breastfeeding or sleeping or tantrums or whatever. I hope they got something out of it for themselves as parents.
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A
And in some ways, the common humanity of it all, isn't it, you know, that we all sort of love and adore and we all kind of suffer from that experience. Suffering's a bit of a big word there, I suppose, but, yeah, there are. It's. It's tricky and difficult and challenging and disappointing at times, and. And we feel so much responsibility and. And yet, you know, kind of get things wrong and. And it's a sort of an ongoing lesson, but as soon as you've learned one, things change, and now we have to relearn and, you know, it's kind of. It's like that. I noticed you just sort of mentioned there when the parent might be hard on themselves about that, you know, the. Did that notion of self criticism and how one might sort of work with that, did that come up in some of the conversations?
- [17:06]
B
Oh, definitely, because that's a huge problem I have. I've had it. I had it terribly when I was with my kids when they were small. And it's still something that I struggle with, but I feel like the culture around parenting, particularly 10 years ago, and I don't know that it's improved that much, to be honest, but there's a real. You know, they talk about the. What is it? Intensification of parenting, that it used to be a noun and then it became a verb. You know, you were a parent. Now we parent. And with this came the expectation that parents would be across all the things, you know, that we would have the right food for our babies, that we wouldn't give them processed food, that we would either only breastfeed, we would only breastfeed. There was no other option. That's the right thing to do. And it was like, even though I was aware of it, I still was very self critical, you know, so if I, in my position as someone who was across the literature and across the commentary and saying to my audience, you know, just, just do what you want to do, like as long as it's safe and you love your child, you're not doing anything wrong. Right. But the, everything that surrounds this is almost subliminal. Like you might say, oh, I don't look at the Mumplers on Instagram or I don't, I don't buy into the advertising or whatever it might be, or you can't get away from it because it's almost unconscious. This pressure to be the perfect mother, mothers in particular. I'm not sure how dads feel about it, but I know that there's a lot of pressure on women to be all the things to all the people. And so because that was my self awareness and I saw it in a lot of people. So I have had colleagues that, that I worked with that didn't have kids when we were working together, but went on to have children. And I was always really conscious of not wanting them to follow the same patterns. And then I'd have conversations with them and I'd hear the way they're talking and I'd be like, wow, it's still happening. You're still being so hard on yourself. And yeah, so I guess it definitely was something that was, was probably in the back of my mind in most of the interviews that I did.
- [19:48]
A
Yes, it's just part of our tricky brains in a way, isn't it? We sort of have that tendency towards self criticism and thinking that it will motivate us probably to be better. And yet often it just can lead to just feelings of shame in the end potentially or things like that. We did some interesting research at UQ looking at mums of young children sort of 0 to 2. And it was in and around self compassion. And one of the really interesting findings was that 90% of the mums felt that this self compassion program would be good to recommend to, you know, other mums, but only 50% of them actually completed the program. And there was this real sense that, that sometimes it feels a little bit like, you know, oh yes, self compassion is really important for mums, but not for me. Somehow, somehow for me I still need to feel like I'm doing it right or the perfect mom. So there's interesting kind of little dilemmas at play there, I suppose.
- [20:59]
B
Yeah. And I think it's Also, it's very common for mothers to put themselves last to feel like, you know, that. I mean, if you think of the, like an anecdotal example might be, you've got a piece of. You've got a cake, there's one piece of cake left. There aren't many mothers that would take that before they would give it to someone else. And I think that is across the board what mothers tend to do. There's this automatic thing where everybody else comes first. Uh, and so I think with the self compassion piece, it doesn't surprise me that women might think of their friends needing it first and foremost before them because they've just got to get through it. Like what? I, I don't need this because I can handle it. I'll be okay. I'm not that bad. Oh, I'm just complaining, you know, I'm, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm really lucky. Look, I've got my kids and, you know, I shouldn't complain because there are women who can't have children. You know, there's all that sort of talk that goes on in the background too, I think. Self talk. Yeah.
- [22:08]
A
Yes. Little, little blocks to self compassion in a way. And, and it's sort of it. There is more of the flow of compassion towards others, often from women and mothers, and, and the, the receiving compassion and, and the, the self compassion is, is harder. You also have your new podcast, A Better World Blueprint. You said earlier one of the lessons from the other podcasts as well was kind of, you know, how to be a good person in a sense, and how to live a good life. And sometimes a good life isn't necessarily always feeling good, but it's about kind of living it, you know, sort of according to our values and being a bit of a role model and, you know, those sorts of things. So what's a Better World blueprint about? I mean, I think you've got already over 40 episodes or something. It's a relatively new podcast and yet there's a wealth of stuff already there.
- [23:05]
B
Well, it's, it's funny you say that because last night I was at my choir, the most beautiful group of women, it's humming song choir. And I told them about my podcast and of course, bless them, they all went and listened and they keep, they keep coming up and saying different things to me about the podcast. And last night a woman stopped me and said, how do you find so many people for your podcast? And it's kind of one of the delightful aspects of Doing this podcast because it is a passion project for me. And mainly it's interesting you say that it was somehow about living a good life. But I think something that I take from Feed, Play Love and working at Kindling and is true also of A Better World Blueprint is I think I've always been more inspired by what I see than what I think I could be, if that makes sense. So, for example, I definitely got that feeling about being a good person or parenting, being about an evolution of who you can be through doing that work. But it was kind of more of circumstance than an actual goal that I came to that with A Better World Blueprint. The reason why it came about was I was at a point where I had 10 years of parenting and I wanted to do something different. I was working with parenting educator Maggie Dent, who I'd interviewed for many years when I was at Feplay Love and who ended up being a friend and a mentor. I never thought I would find a mentor in a six foot. She often wears the wrong shoes on each feet, loves to tell a fart joke. Parenting educator. But Maggie is one of the most, I guess, spiritual, heart led people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. And I guess it goes to show you just can't tell where those people will show up in your lives. But what I saw with Maggie and working with Maggie was that she, as they say in yoga, had found her dharma. So she'd found, found her life purpose. And that was, she's always been a champion of boys and men, but she really wants to help people and parents. And I would watch, we did this podcast together and I would watch her interview people. And this is when I was having my crisis about what do to do with my life. And this isn't for me. I was in the commercial industry and it wasn't, wasn't marrying up with my values. And I would watch. There was one particular interview where she was interviewing. Now I'm going to forget his last name, Joe. He's an NRL player, a former NRL player who changed his career to help young indigenous people and with their mental health.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I watched them talking to each other. It was after the interview and there was just this energy in the room, like they'd had this incredible chat. The mics were off. They were just talking to each other. And it struck me that Maggie's world and what she was doing with her life, I didn't, I didn't. I knew I didn't want to be a parenting educator. That was not on the cards for me, but I was like, I want what you've got, but I don't know how to create it. Right. And she took me to lunch not long after that. And I told her, and I said, maggie, I just love how you are in the world. What is. Why, what would you. You know, we're just talking about it. And she said, I just want to leave the world a better place than when I found it. And so I kind of sat with that. And Maggie was, as a huge champion of her friends, and she was often saying to me, you need to get back on the mic. I want you to do your podcast again. I want you to do something like that. But watching Maggie and how she was in the world was really the inspiration behind the podcast. Because I've worked in podcasting for a long time. I am a voracious consumer of podcasts. I didn't want to make anything that was going to tell people, you know, do X, Y, Z and you'll be happy. This will make you a better person. I wanted to give people what I got when I watched these people doing these interviews and living these incredible lives. Like, I felt that our culture had become so intensely navel gazing, like it was all about me. How can I be great? How can I be healthy? How can I be beautiful? And I was sick of it. And I wanted also being in media, seeing all the awful news that was out there. One of the things we always used to do on Fee Play Love is if there was a disaster, if there was a terrorist attack, a climate disaster, we told our children to look for the helpers. So the world can feel like a very dark place. But if you look for people who are helping, it balances it out. And like with many things for kids, I always thought we could do with that for parents. And so blueprint came from being inspired by people like Maggie and feeling good after I talked to her or seen what she was doing and what motivated her, and. And also wanting to balance out the awful news that I was consuming every day and just made me feel like life was hopeless. And I guess one of the great side effects of doing something like this is that when you are seeking out people who are making the world a better place, they are everywhere and they, you know, and it does make. It makes my life better. Doing the interviews. I mean, it's. It's a passion project. So I work full time, and then I'll go and do an interview, and then I'll have to edit it, and I'll sometimes often go to the interview Thinking, oh God, why am I doing this again? Never think that. Once I finished, you know, there is always something I get from everyone I speak to that I can't predict, but I've learned something from everyone. I don't even know if that answers the question.
- [30:07]
A
Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And there's actually a lot of bits in there that I am sort of trying to remember to sort of, you know, kind of speak to, because, I mean, you sort of are a person that already that seems to have this kind of deep and profound love for, for people, for humanity, for, for, you know, all of that. And, and, you know, watching others have these conversations was inspiring in a way, because you saw a lot of that in them, but it also just kind of, I don't know, ignited that thing that perhaps was already within you as well. And, and, and, and the notion of kind of show, not tell with that, you know, that, that, that these conversations that you're having is really just offers people a chance to kind of sort of listen in to a conversation that kind of demonstrates, what is it to be a helpful person? What is it to make your way in the world and see hardship or experience hardship and how we can sort of navigate our way through that with a view to sort of see is there inspiration, you know, that perhaps others can. Can pick up on, on there? And, and I mean, are there a one or two little examples there that you could share? You know, people, I think. Is it Joe Williams? Is that who. Oh, Joe Williams referring to before? Yeah, that's. Yes, that was a different thing. But, but yeah, your own kind of conversations or episodes where people have sort of given an example of, you know, kind of, I guess, hardship and challenges and facing that and, and overcoming adversity or being helpful in their communities?
- [31:52]
B
Well, I think, I mean, one thing I like to ask is, you know, I often ask how do you look after yourself? Because there's lots of people in these. You know, when you're trying to help others, you're often in a position where there's not a lot of support in terms of funding to help others. And you're dealing at the, you're at the coal face of some really challenging stuff. And I think the answers that come out, there's sort of threads throughout the whole, like many, many interviews. But, you know, one lovely, lovely woman who. She works at the Blacktown Youth Services association and very humble, humble person, but is just really works for the kids that come through her service. And I said, you know, it must be really Hard. And you know, the way she copes is, you know, getting out in nature and riding a bike. And another woman I spoke to, Faith, who started Silver Sirens, which is a support network for women over 50, you know, she came from a really high powered fashion job and it all kind of fell apart and she was at rock bottom. And the thing, it really struck me at the time, she said, you know, I said that sounds really tough. How did you get through it? And she said, I had this one friend who was a very, very dear friend and we went swimming every day and I am myself a swimmer and I love being in the ocean. And I think it was when people are coping with adversity, the people that I'm speaking to, it's often that their work can be quite challenging. So many of them come back to nature and I guess I see that as a place of grounding and finding peace and a bit of silence for yourself. But also I think friendship and connection is a big part of that. Dr. Lisa Searle, another incredible woman who works for medicine sans Frontiere, spends most of her life in the most horrific places you could imagine. And one of her ways of coping was talking to people who'd been through the same stuff as her. So she's also a huge advocate for the nature and getting back. She lives in Tasmania. So having that connection to the wild and those sorts of places. But ultimately we humans need that connection and we find it through other people and friendship and people who are like minded. I think a huge support. If you don't see yourself going for a bushwalk or going for a swim in the ocean, I feel like friendship is the next best thing for that.
- [35:00]
A
Yes, being a helpful person in the world is. Well, it often bounces back and feels good and that can be a very positive effect too. And it's often hard and challenging work and can of deplete us a little bit or even, you know, the things like burnout. I guess we're trying to keep a little eye on that. And so the sort of the self help, self care, self compassion piece of it. But practically, you know, like what is it practically, you know. Yeah, it's things like getting back to nature, getting back to social connection, some of the real fundamentals of what it is to be human. But I really, the thing I love about your podcast, if I may say, is that, you know, rather than having a kind of like a more academic or intellectualized sort of look at what it is to be compassionate, you just use, you're just looking at what it actually Is, you know, in real life, you know, kind of the whole messy but wonderful kind of what it is to be human thing. And those stories really kind of depict it and help us to start to feel inspired and to kind of come up with our own version of what we might want to do. Because I guess, yeah, another Thich Nhat Hanh quote is something like, you know, compassion is a verb. You know, it's an action. It's about doing things. And your podcast really inspires us for that.
- [36:36]
B
Yeah. And I've got to say, without failing, the people that I talk to, they are getting reward for what they're doing, not for any accolades. Like they've all pointed to the satisfaction they gain from doing work that is serving others. A question I do ask is could they tell us about any impact they've seen from their work? And they always have stories, but somewhere along the line they will always say, you know, I had, you know, there's nothing like this job. And I'm thinking of one of my, actually one of my friends from my mother's group, Penny Kalida, who was, when I met her, high flying advertise in advertising. I'm terrible. I can't remember the actual role she had, but it was, it was very corporate and she went through a separation. She had two kids and at that point decided she wanted to work in the non for profit sector. You know, she had to support two kids. And she, she said to me at the time, and I may misquote her, but she said something like, I halved my pay packet but I doubled my soul. Right. And the joy I have, I've known her for a long time and I can see the joy it brings her and I can see it in the people that I'm talking to, the joy they get from serving others, from trying to help people, from trying to make the world better. It's kind of a no brainer for me. I mean, I hear, sometimes I think I kind of look at the way the world is and the awful things people can say and do. And I just think really, like we've got all the facts, like, you know, that you're going to be a happier, more satisfied person if you lead with compassion. And yet it's just, it doesn't seem to be the first protocol for many people in power anyway. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's so obvious from all the chats I've had that they're not doing this for any other reason. Well, you know, obviously they want to help people. Yeah. But they're doing it because it makes them happy as well.
- [39:11]
A
Yes, it's a, it's a really is a twofold benefit and, and you know, kind of leading with compassion. I mean it. In some ways it seems like a no brainer, but. Well, on that note, Siobhan Hunt, thank you. Well, thank you for wonderful work. I'll put the links to things in the description and so on. But also thank you for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.
- [39:39]
B
Thanks for having me, Stan. I love talking about this stuff.