← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt. My guest today is Majella Green, social worker, therapist, trainer and thought leader in psychological safety. She's also a dear friend and colleague from the Motivational Interviewing network of Trainers. Recently we both presented alongside Professor Bill Miller and Denise Ernst at a Mint event titled Compassion, Psychological Safety and Hope. I was so interested in her presentation that I invited her to come and speak with me on Compassion in a T Shirt. She has a background in community development, trauma, informed practice and motivational interviewing. Majella helps people, teams and communities create spaces where care, courage and, and creativity can thrive. And so I bring you Majella Green. Magella Green. Welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt.
- [01:07]
B
I'm very excited to be here, Stan. It's great. And I love that your T shirt has compassion on it.
- [01:13]
A
There it is.
- [01:13]
B
Great. Can we all get one?
- [01:15]
A
You know, I considered creating comparison Compassion in a T Shirt, T shirts for the merch, but it didn't, it didn't really add up, unfortunately. So.
- [01:26]
B
Well, maybe we'll commission our own in our local countries.
- [01:30]
A
That's true, that's true. Jump on Canva and that'll do it for you. But you describe psychological safety as the courage to show up. So what does that courage sort of look like, would you say, in just real world spaces? I mean, communities or teams or just even within ourselves.
- [01:51]
B
So I suppose first of all, it's often safety can feel like not stepping forward, merging into the background and not speaking your mind or participating because the environment doesn't feel safe. And then there's this element of building safety internally within ourselves that says, I am going to step forward, I am going to say something, even if this means that people aren't going to like me or they're not going to receive it well. So in teams, it's like being able to make mistakes without fear of being criticized or being knocked down. It's seeing those mistakes and being able to learn from the mistakes and build on that. And then in communities, it's holding space for disagreements and not shutting people down again. Is that kind of having an open dialogue? Even when it's quite emotionally tense, it's holding that risky space in between. We don't know where we're going to end up with this. This could go terribly wrong. And, oh, there's a solution and a way of moving forward. So it's, it's being courageous but not fearless. You can be fearful and still speak.
- [03:21]
A
Actually, what the thing that you started with there is actually it just sort of Sort of was, was a surprise in a way. But it makes so much sense that sometimes psychological safety, we might be seeking safety and, and we kind of feel like we have to actually back away or withdraw or avoid or keep our heads down or not say too much and so on. And, and actually that's coming from still a threat protection motivation, isn't it? And a sort of a safety seeking motivation. And we want to create spaces where people might not have to default to the avoidance sort of version of what it might be to, to create safety, but rather that they feel able to not without fear or not without some trepidation or something like that, but that they're able to step forward and speak up in a way where they're sort of, you know, kind of able to be heard. And that takes a lot of courage, I guess.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah. Especially if you're in a large group, a new group, a strange situation, not in your comfort zone, being able to find your voice, even when it might be in conflict with others in the room.
- [04:50]
A
How much of psychological safety is within the individual? Because I was going to go on, I think to ask about really the, the collective responsibility of creating that kind of psychological safety. How do you parcel out those, those elements?
- [05:09]
B
Great question. It's a great question because I don't know is. Is the simple answer. However, there are elements that are clearly internal. So. No. Well, people can try and force you to speak, speak or say things, but you're more likely then to just toe the line, but to actually feel internally driven and capable of speaking out against something that it could be as something in the office, like, no, I don't want the bookcases there to hang on. There's this horrendous situation that's happening in the world and I really object to it and being in environments where other people don't agree with what you're thinking or feeling. So, so I suppose the drivers are. What are, where are your values? What's important to you in the greater scheme of things? Is this something that you can let slide or is this something that actually letting it slide now is like creating a wound, a small puncture wound that is not going to get addressed and is slowly going to eat away at you. And then the collective responsibility really, you have no control over. You know, you've got no control over how other people are going to respond to you. You can create environments where you encourage people to speak their minds and practice not reacting in the, oh my God, you've made a terrible mistake. Where we commit to, okay, my Default is to go into criticism here. I need to step back from criticism. I need to just allow the space for us to process this in some way, shape or form. And that can be in any work environment. It doesn't have to be, oh, we're all therapists working together. Let's create this environment that's psychologically safe. It can be any work environment. In fact, I'm working with some people in hospitality where we're working to build towards creating their place as the best place and the most psychologically safe place for people in hospitality, because we know hospitality is really tough on so many levels. So I think there's a collective, but we don't know how any one person is going to respond in even within that collective.
- [07:40]
A
It's tricky. It's tricky and it does relate to our tricky human brains really, doesn't it? And the way that we have these different feelings and thoughts and, and, and motivations and, and partly it's about the, the individual and, and finding that strength and courage, I suppose, to sort of take steps even when, when feeling anxious or fearful. Sometimes their fears might be sort of embellished in their minds even in terms of the, you know, the, the dangers that are there that often the mind highlights threats, I suppose, in that way, but often it's not that they're exaggerating anything. And so it requires that courage. But we don't want to sort of lump all of the responsibility on them, the broader interventions, you know, trying to create that psychological safety in a much more relational, cultural sort of way amongst an organization. I was thinking a moment ago about sort of building sites and, and construction sites, I suppose, and, and you know, just the, that some of the people I've worked with too, where, where it can feel very psychologically unsafe and, and very threatening and, and a lot of bullying still, oddly, you know, in this, even in this day and age, I suppose. And so what, what, what are some of the really that might, that we might all be able to reflect on, maybe even in our workplaces and our environments, but the cues where it suggests that the space kind of is truly safe for people to be themselves.
- [09:25]
B
I think probably thinking about noticing what isn't being said, noticing the things that aren't being spoken. I think it's interesting that choosing the building sites as you're talking, I'm thinking, well, in the 1970s, 80s and probably through the early 90s, you couldn't walk past a building site as a woman, no matter what you look like. You could be any size, shape, shade, anything. And you will get a comment of some sort, whether it's meant to be a compliment or a dig or whatever. That doesn't happen anymore. But there's definitely like, I think culturally we can change things. So the looking at where there's power in the room, who's hoarding, who's controlling, who's dominating, and what is that lead about, what's the benefit here to them and the gain. Thinking about how you feel it in your body when you enter spaces or walk past spaces using that building site example again, certainly as a young woman, if I was approaching having to walk past a building site, I would be like, I'm crossing the road. Or I would avoid. Because I couldn't deal with it, deal with whatever, whatever was coming, I didn't want it. And now, you know, obviously an older woman now, but I could run past and not feel scared or worried about having someone say a comment.
- [11:09]
A
There's a couple of things to look out for, like what. What is. What is being said and what seems to not be able to be said. You know, that's one little cue that we've got in terms of is this a psychologically sort of safe space? Another is to really reflect on power, I guess, and where the power lies and who perhaps holds the power and how they wield it and that sort of thing as well, and how others are encouraged along or not so much. And then the third bit you mentioned is, yeah, just sort of kind of a feeling it in the body thing. You know, just sort of that mind awareness and body awareness. I suppose that if I enter a room or I'm. I'm with certain people or what am I noticing? And sometimes that kind of awareness there can give us insight into our own sense of our own psychological safety. But it sometimes, through empathy and mentalizing, it can give us clues about how safe might others be feeling in this particular space as well. So you can, I guess, yeah, there were those multiple kind of cues or sources of. Of reflection there, around. Around safety.
- [12:24]
B
And you. You've brought me back into the. So the biggest thing is how difference is met.
- [12:31]
A
Gotcha.
- [12:32]
B
How do people. When. If you're different or someone else is different, how are they being responded to? And if people are expected to assimilate, that's not safety, that's suppression. So it's like such a big thing. I find this, the most powerful thing is like you're okay as long as you toe the line, as long as you argue from an academic point of view, as long as you wear the right clothes. Or sit at the right table at lunchtime or whatever. So it's that kind of actually how do we facilitate or embrace difference. Even if someone really gets on your nerves, you know, that's about you, not them. You know, that's about your reaction to them. Um, it doesn't invalidate who they are or their opinions or their right to be in the same space. Space as you. And I think that's one of the biggest things about psychological safety that hits me is if you're assimilating, then that's probably suppression and bowing down to the dominant culture in some way.
- [13:44]
A
You've used the phrase belonging without fitting in, I think is a way to think about that. We need that sense of belonging. It's such a deeply felt human need when we're in families or groups or communities. But that pressure to change or adjust or kind of lose touch a bit with one's own authenticity because you've got to try to be that chameleon and fit in. That's the bit that creates the. The lack of safety in. In a sense.
- [14:15]
B
Yeah. I think the term code switching. Oh, you know, if you feel like you're having to code switch, then you're probably not psychologically safe.
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A
Right.
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B
To be yourself and to be who you are.
- [14:29]
A
Yeah. I suspect there's a sort of a power kind of element to that too, isn't there? Maybe that. That. That if the person who has less of the power in that arrangement is the one that's always having to code switch, then that's different as well to perhaps the person who has more of the power. But maybe there is a little bit of an obligation to code switch in order to create safety for others. I'm not sure. What are you. I'm just thinking out loud.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah. I think. Well, I think that there's such a pressure to certainly in. In my lived experience around presenting in a particular way, speaking in a particular way, not using particular language, not swearing, not doing this, not that, you know, like these, These things that are. Can be jumped upon as if. Oh, well, that. That means that you're not very bright because you have an accent. That's. That denotes that you're from London, you're from this part of London, you're from this part of. You're from a working class background, you know, all these kind of hierarchical imposed constructs that. That are. Yeah. Basically in our everyday existence.
- [15:52]
A
Yes, it's. It's a funny one, isn't it? Because we can as a species, we seem to struggle with that sort of. Us versus them or that sort of tendency to other people or the sort of. And we find it harder sometimes to, well, relate to, but also feel kindly or compassionate towards people that are maybe different to us or something like that. And so there's a tendency to sort of expect people to be a bit more or a bit less different to us, a bit more the same. And that's the code, I guess, piece that you're referring to. And so there's this discomfort, I suppose, when dealing with people who are different. How does one bring compassion to that, to the different people involved, to the group of people where difference can feel difficult, even threatening, I suppose, but in that very human way, that's not really our fault, I suppose, but it's just part of how the brain is designed. How do we cultivate that kind of compassion?
- [17:04]
B
So when I was reflecting on this, I'm going to read you what I came up with because. Yeah, so. So we start by naming the discomfort. Compassion isn't always soft. It can be fierce.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah.
- [17:18]
B
And true belonging doesn't require people to shrink or edit themselves. So one of the most. Yeah, one of the most liberating experiences is being in a room where people didn't need to justify their accent, neurodivergence, their grief or their joy. That didn't happen by accident. It happened because someone made space for all of that. So it's that creating that space for people to show up as they are. So compassion in this sense means giving, you know, having permission to be your whole self and creating that space where everyone is able to show up as their whole self. And it means staying with the tension that arises when people bring radically different lived experience.
- [18:08]
A
Yeah, that's. That's beautiful. I mean, the, the CFT kind of thing is, you know, we're born with these tricky brains designed for us, not by us, and so on. And then we're shaped by experiences. You know, things just start to happen that, you know, and much of that is. Is not our choice and, and kind of not our fault. And of course, we're born in different places and different families and cultures and communities, and we don't get to choose, you know, sort of any of those bits and pieces. And so I love that notion of really understanding the whole person. Not just defining them by a certain look or accent or a certain behavior or something they did just yesterday, but rather having that sense of the whole person. And that sense of common humanity perhaps, too, sneaks in there. You know, that idea that we're all just kind of doing the best we can, you know, with life and that it's hard and we struggle and sort of suffer, but to stay connected with the whole person with all this history and so on just kind of opens us up and we can make space for those people.
- [19:23]
B
Yeah. And for ourselves. Making space for ourselves to be ourselves in different environments. Not, not going for the oh, I must be like this mask in this situation. And actually it's, it's possible to be your whole authentic self because that's, there's no one else you can be. You know, you're just withholding parts of yourself. And I wonder sometimes that when we don't have psychological safety, we miss out on opportunities for growth and evolution and ideas and innovation and all this amazing creativity that can come as a result of everyone being able to say, oh no, but what about this? And oh, that's great, but what about that as well? And, and building on each other and you know, foundations of buildings that might be made of different substances in order to create the most suitable environment for a very tall or very small or a building that's been built in a high risk earthquake place or so on, so forth. So all these things are foundational to us in psychological safety as well. It's what is the foundation here? What is it that we want collectively to create here? And that might mean that you're putting rubble down, sand, grit, other cement, other things, all building up on top of each other in order for that to provide the very foundation of risk in high risk situations, of creating a safety net that when you're in the field and you're a humanitarian aid worker, that you know that the people behind you have got your back, literally. And that you know that there is safety around you. And the same applies to everywhere in our lives, where we go, where we socialize, where we play sports, where we are going to get benefits if we're struggling. You know, all these things is creating environments that people don't, are not on hyper vigilance all the time. Because that's exhausting.
- [21:40]
A
Yes, it's when we flourish really when there is psychological safety. And the, the fun little twist in that is that it's also when, for example, an organization might flourish best as well if, if the, if everyone feels kind of that, that safety to be themselves and to express themselves and to share ideas, even if they're a little bit left field or something like that. And then it creates actually an opportunity for something, you know, even better, I guess because of the, that ability to sort of take the risk, to sort of think Creatively and those sorts of things. Would there be other sort of real benefits of psychological safety to communities or to organizations or that sort of thing?
- [22:30]
B
Yeah, I think so. Well, people are probably going to have better immune systems as a result of not producing high cortisol levels all the time and adrenal fatigue or resulting in. So your long term health benefits are probably going to go up. You're going to reduce the risk of health conditions hitting you out of nowhere. The communities are then able to join together also to make collective changes. Maybe that's about objecting to a 40 story building being built in the middle of your neighborhood that isn't suitable or aligned or doesn't provide resources or doesn't really enhance the community or the live space and doesn't acknowledge the difficulties around housing people in environments like that. I suppose the communities and the benefits are that we have collective growth and increased connection and are more likely to be able to welcome new people in regardless of where they're from or how they've arrived. And it's like oh, welcome. You know, the first thing is welcome and not what are you doing here?
- [23:50]
A
It's almost like yes, it shifts us from threat system to soothing system or soothing affiliative system which you know, creates that sense of safeness and calmness, I suppose, in a way. And, and from there we can move out to drive system and start to explore the world and experiment and see, see how we go rather than feeling so threatened and then sort of going straight to drive where we're trying to prove ourselves and you know, kind of be perfect or, or whatever. We can go via something like the, the soothing system and you know, kind of have that sense of calmness and groundedness to actually explore the world. You've mentioned the importance of repair because I suppose in some ways, even as we move towards creating more psychological safety for ourselves and for others around us and so on, things perhaps go wrong. Yeah, what does that sort of repair look like? You know, when mistakes are made or that sort of thing.
- [24:59]
B
So there's a few things here. I'm going to join them together. So one of the things as you were talking just prior to that was within psychological safety and awareness of where you are in the proud privilege position is important. So for example, in the culture we live in, it's at the center of privilege is white male cisgendered heterosexual men. Yeah, obviously I've said male, that means they're men. Any like intersectionality around that shifts the power out. So if it's a white gay man, it goes out a little bit, you know, so that kind of whole thinking about, where are. Where am I? Where do I sit in this power dynamic? Like, not just me personally, as in, I might feel terrible at the moment, and I'm really low and I'm really close to the edge, but in this dynamic here, I am seen as a white woman, and I've got power systemically. And even though I might not feel very powerful in that moment, there might be a dynamic where it's actually. Hang on a minute. You know, those moments where you go, I need to step back from that because this really isn't. This is. Is not a good position to be in and to be taking the, you know, whether you're arguing with customer services or something like that, whatever it is, it's like, where is your power in this? And who. Who's winning here? Or what's the gain? And then thinking about that with regards to repair is stepping up and having accountability. So I made a mistake. Like, there's so much evidence around industrial accidents that could have been prevented or disasters that could have been prevented if someone had felt safe to say, I've made a mistake before it's too late. So as soon as you recognize something that maybe you said something, you've done something, is to say, I'm really sorry I've made a mistake, and acknowledge that in the part of the repair process, repair can't happen if someone's saying, no, but I was right. But I was right. It's, you know, I've got. I've got this wrong. And it's. It's checking in with the other person or the team or, you know, going back on that. It's that the repair part is being willing to go over something that's been difficult in a conversation or, you know, to say that. I mean, you can feel it. Right? I think most people can feel when an interaction hasn't gone right physically, that that embodiment and being aligned with your somatic experience, I think is really important too. So when we cut that part off and just operate from here, we're missing all the cues, the social cues and the biological cues to environments that if we're open to, might enable us to have better conversations and to pick up on things earlier and acknowledge, oh, so and so hasn't spoken in a meeting for three weeks what's going on here.
- [28:28]
A
Yes. Yeah. It. It begins with awareness. It begins with awareness of ourselves and our, perhaps privilege or the. The intersection of our. Of our identity and who we are in that moment and who the others are around us and how that the, the interplay there and kind of creating an awareness and so on. And when you feel it in the body or you know, you're kind of noticing cognitively or otherwise that that something's gone awry and something doesn't feel right and a mistake's been made or whatever, it's then that kind of acknowledgement and accountability in a sense and perhaps apology in a way too or at least recognizing what's happened and you know, trying to talk about it I suppose, which you still have to be very careful there I imagine at that point. Because to have a conversation with someone for whom there still remains that same power imbalance that can be, feel threatening too because so really carefully approaching the follow up conversation is just as important as that. The original sort of moments where all of this happened, it's an ongoing weaving through the interactions that are happening that we're trying to stay aware and cultivate that sense of safety.
- [29:49]
B
And it's being able to say to someone, what do you need from me now? Not just assuming that whatever I've said, my apology is enough, what do you need from me now? What would be helpful? How can I make amends or shift this situation to better improve the outcome for you?
- [30:12]
A
What are your thoughts about the sort.
- [30:16]
B
Of.
- [30:18]
A
Perhaps the complex situation, the tricky situation where as a person in a leadership position there is in fact difficult feedback to give somebody or there is sort of some kind of change that might be, you know, asked of or required or something, you know, all that sort of stuff in a, in certain situations, certain context. What, what's, where does psychological safety come in there? And how can we still have a difficult conversation like that and maintain a sense of safety for all involved as well?
- [30:57]
B
My instant reaction is difficult conversations are at the heart of psychological safety. Okay, where there are no difficult conversations, there is not psychological safety. Does that make sense? So it's like, it's, it's and, and the power dynamic, it's the same as in mi, you know, in terms of giving feedback with permission or, you know, if I'm. Something comes to mind where I had to not pass someone in their probation in a role not because they weren't a good social worker, but because the statutory service that they were working in would absolutely destroy them. And they were, their skills were much more aligned to doing third sector work outside of statutory sector. Like they were a brilliant social worker, brilliant with working with people, fantastic with relational stuff. But when it came to recording information on statutory required databases the risks were too high. So having those conversations and being honest about it and saying, you know, you're going to be destroyed working in this environment, this is going to kill you. It's not aligned with who you are. You're brilliant at what you do. This is your. It's like saying to, you know, someone who, you need to fit into this box over here that's way too small and confined, or you can. And so you can stay here and do that, and will eventually compress you so much that your skull squished out of all the edges and unrecognizable from who you truly are. Or look, this kind of thing is going to work better for you. But being honest about it, having those, recognizing someone's strengths, not just saying, well, no, put, I suppose, pathologizing them. You're not pathologizing that. Yeah, you're not very good at that. You're not a very good social worker based on your work here. That's not true. You're a very good social worker. In fact, you're excellent. Your skills are superb. This environment requires something completely different from the skills that you are really good at. And this is going to destroy you.
- [33:26]
A
Yes, that's sort of compassionate leadership, isn't it? And being able to offer that to somebody is actually, you know, sort of better than holding it back from them. Because by offering them that, and especially in a way that is skillfully communicated and so on, then they have a chance to sort of understand and to, you know, maybe make changes or improve on certain things or go and get a different role or all sorts of things. So it's actually compassionate leadership to have that conversation. And the bit you said at the start that. That difficult conversations sort of happen in psychological safety, I think the. That is really sort of interesting as well, because if we're not having difficult conversations, then that's actually suggesting that various people don't have a voice. And that if we kind of tell people what to do and we feel quite good about that and that was pretty easy or whatever, then we're missing something within terms of, you know, the, the psychological safety. But if you're having a conversation where you're giving feedback and maybe the person has a view and they get to respond and they get to say their point of view and so on, it might in one way feel more difficult, but in another way, it's actually a sign that we're all kind of. We have the safety here to actually have that conversation at all.
- [34:58]
B
It's. I used to use a rather Crude analogy.
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A
Okay.
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B
If you live in a house and you have a dog and the dog has a mess in the corner in one of the rooms, right? And you think, oh, I won't bother cleaning that up now. So they don't, it doesn't get cleaned up, the whole house stinks, you know, in a matter of time. And you can't even remember where the dog left the mess in the first place.
- [35:27]
A
Right.
- [35:28]
B
And that to me is like addressing those small things in psychological safety is about cleaning that mess up even though you really don't feel like it. And it feels effortful and awkward and really. Oh God, you know, now I have to scrub the carpet as well. Whatever it is, it's addressing those issues as they arise. And it's not comfortable. I don't feel comfortable doing this. You know, it's not like, oh, this is really easy for me. I think, oh God, not another one. You know, like, I really, I don't know whether I can do this anymore. It is effortful and can be staying. And that's about whether you're willing to, or wanting to invest in the relationship or the group that you're involved in as to whether you can feel the energy and drive to address things. And sometimes the, the emotional labor is too much, you know, and you're not sure of the outcome. And it's actually, am I willing to put myself out there again? Possibly not.
- [36:45]
A
I thought where your little analogy was going to go was that that before you knew it, the dog would go back and poop in the same spot and then you'd have a, a room full of poop.
- [36:57]
B
Do you know what? That's also. Yeah, that's also possibility. Because if it hasn't been like cleaned up. Oh, yeah, well, this is my go to place from now on, right?
- [37:07]
A
Yeah, maybe, Maybe it fits.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah, well, that's your organizational analogy, like where some parts become the dumping ground or the scapegoat. Nice. I like that.
- [37:23]
A
You're a beekeeper, I think. Is that correct? Oh, that's cool. That's super cool. What, what has just in terms of. Yeah, your, your own background, I suppose, and, and in your work. But, but I think beekeeping is something of a metaphor for you as well, perhaps. I mean, what, what, what sort of. Has most shaped your, your thinking in, in around psychological safety?
- [37:52]
B
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, beekeep bees are. Operate as autonomous collectives as an idea, you know, so people who don't understand or know about bees think, oh, the queen, the queen. The queen is made by the Worker bees, the queen does not remain in power or control. If they don't like her or there's something not working for them, they will collectively grow some more queens and, and then the old queen is gone. Which is why when you get swarming season is because they've created. It might be that the queen's coming to the end of her healthy laying cycle as well. It doesn't mean that she's necessarily done anything terrible to them, but there will be movements to get rid or replace. And when I had a, I had a pop up shop called Urban Roots which was based on how to have a joyful life in the city. And it was actually a beautiful merge of positive psychology and motivational interviewing and a space where anyone could walk in. There was no diagnosis required, there was no expectations. We sold things, we ran workshops, we had pop up supper nights that were aligned with like how to have a joyful life in the city. Talking about beauty in the urban environment and so on. And everyone that worked then none of us got paid. I funded it, we didn't make money. And everyone that worked there could use the space for exactly whatever, you know, whatever they wanted to do. It's like you can do it, but you do it, you create it and then we'll help and support. So the idea is that everyone decides. It's not consensus decision making though, let's be clear about that. It's like, oh, someone's come up with an idea, okay, we'll support you to do that. It's not like, oh, that's not going to work. You know, let's try it out, let's see. It's. And I think bees and beekeeping are, it's just a reminder of seasons, it's a reminder of processes, it's a reminder of change. And some seasons, you know, they, they die, all of them. It's tragic, you know, it's awful. But you think, well, there's a reason for this. And the cycle continues and the bees continue and we have to do whatever we can. That's the foundation for living. We need bees. We need them to propagate fruits and vegetables and flowers and so on. Otherwise we don't get that. So I suppose the bees are like the foundation of psychological safety as well. It's like they need to be there in order for this flora and fauna to flourish. And they're very peaceful. It's very nice when you, when you don't have angry bees. I've had some angry bees before that had been badly treated before I got them and it's really interesting to notice the difference in their behavior and responses to. When you've got bees that have been in sunshine all the time and been looked after and haven't been kicked over in acts of vandalism and stuff or kept in damp places.
- [41:10]
A
Is the word apiarist? It is, yeah. Yeah. Because I'll have you know I was a registered apiarist when I was about 18. For a few years there we had bees.
- [41:24]
B
And what stopped you from having them now?
- [41:28]
A
Well I, that was when I was still at home with my parents and so I then left and my poor old dad had to look after the bees, which he loved to do and he did that for several years. But. But now I don't quite have room for the European bees. But we are planning to get native bees which are little black stingless bees that are actually wonderful for as you say, you know, propagation and all that sort of stuff but don't really make a lot of honey so much so it's more about helping the, the garden and the veggie patch and the native plants and everything. That's why we're getting going to get those bees and that's it.
- [42:10]
B
I mean I got bees that I, I would, I wouldn't extract much honey although I did my first bees which were caught. The hive was called the Bee Gees. They're amazing. It's a bit to Australia. There it is. And they were incredible. But I, I didn't get them with a view to. I want to extract honey. But I ended up with like a, it was like a high rise hype. They were just so productive it was ridiculous. I was like okay, I'm gonna have to take some off because it's just gonna rot. But always leaving. I don't like feeding them supplements. I think they've made all that honey. Leave that for them for the winter. Let them eat their produce, done the work, let you know extracting. I don't get it when, I mean I get it in commercial worlds but when you're syrup feeding.
- [43:08]
A
No, it seems to sort of just be a very strange paradox. But, but yeah, I mean it's, it's, it is very interesting because they are this incredible community and, and each one matters, you know, each one has a real job to do. And, and when we presented together recently you had one of your slides was advocacy starts with small shifts. I believe, I believe your voice matters is radical. You know to actually express that and, and, and, and live it and embody it. You know to be a person who can, who can sort of champion, you know, I believe your voice matters. Can you say more about that?
- [43:57]
B
Yeah, I think that it, it's that, you know, we often see people, it could be in person or in online. We're much more online now where there's a very small number of people that will express or speak or so on. And so the opportunities to invite conversation or invite people in without them fearing that they're going to be cut off or top down or analyzed in a way that's unfavorable is important, I think mostly. I worked a long time ago in criminal justice and I like working with young people wasn't my favorite thing to do and it was also substance misuse and I'm really interested. I mean I loved and I still do love working in the field. And I went to assess this young man who was in a youth offender unit outside of London that only had legal visits at 9 o'clock in the morning. So I had to leave my house at quarter five, get there on in order to see him in person. This was before you, we wouldn't have done anything online then. It was written in stone tablets. And sitting there with him, he, you know, came in all the kind of, I mean, I've got be tough mode, which is understandable, totally appropriate for that environment. And just sitting there with him and kind of having a conversation initially starting and then asking him, you know, what is it that you want? You know, what you want is important. And he just couldn't respond and he was, no one's ever asked me that before. No one's asked me what I want or what's important to me before. You know, this is a young man, like he's 20, 21 and no one had ever actually asked him what he wanted before. So actually asking the questions and affirming that your voice matters, even if, even if your thing that you're asking for isn't going to be provided for in this moment, your voice still matters on it, you know, even if it's not available, your voice still matters if it is available and it's accessible and it's appropriate or whatever it is, or you want it, go for it, whatever it is. But actually opening the conversation with what do you want, what's important, what, what would you hope for?
- [46:47]
A
Which starts to sound awfully like motivational interviewing, doesn't it? I guess in a way. And I was just thinking that that, that is one of the things that I really adore about MI is the, the real attention giving to the, the other person's voice and you know, ways to really help them share their perspectives and, and to explore their own perspectives and then put it into words. And, and you know, that idea that, that, you know, your voice really matters and it is kind of radical, isn't it? I mean, it's radical in that example from you because he hadn't really been asked that before, you know, and, and, and it's sort of, in a way he was sort of taken aback by. Because what do I really want or need? You know, it's sort of, it's hard when, when no one has ever actually really been there with you. I, I'm sort of interested in the word safety and psychological safety and, and that notion of sort of creating safety versus or as well as, or something like that as people just simply feeling safe. So that, you know, the kind of safety versus safeness question I suppose is what's in my mind. I mean, do you see any distinctions there? Is that sort of really that. Do they mean similar things or is there an endpoint at which actually we've created a sense of psychological safety and now people actually feel safe?
- [48:23]
B
I've not been in an environment where that, that process has fully been achieved.
- [48:29]
A
Okay.
- [48:30]
B
Yeah, I, I suppose in a way it's a bit like unconditional positive regard. It's something to aspire to.
- [48:40]
A
Gotcha. Yeah.
- [48:43]
B
Because I'm not sure that even, you know, when, when you, you looked at the, the talk from the mini conference is that, you know, we, I asked the question do you. Where grade yourself? Where do you feel psychologically safe?
- [48:57]
A
Yes.
- [48:58]
B
And most, and very importantly most people felt most safe at home. Which, you know, I'm sure if you went to a refuge for domestic violence, it's not going to be that, you know, so it's exploring where, where do you feel safe, most safe. So we're aspiring to create. Because there's so many variables, we can't control that it's an aspiration to be in an environment where someone feels safe, to be themselves without threat or Chris High but unnecessary personalized criticism or unfair treatment. And I think also there's so many factors that come into that again around what you look like, what your background is, how other people perceive or project onto you around this. And all these elements are going to contribute to whether you feel safe or not. And someone you trusts easily might feel safer because they've misgauged the trust element. You know, they're not gauging it. Right. So there is no, I don't think there's an ideal as in that it can be, oh, if we do enough work on this area, then everyone will feel safe because there's too many internal and external variables for us to be able to take of care. This is a truly psychologically safe environment.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah. Yes. I like the notion of it's aspirational in a way. Some people might have places in their life or people with, in their life that, that they feel more or less safe in a. On the continuum. And our great hope would be that the people have that experience of safeness in, in somewhere in their life or at some time in their life or with certain people in their life so that they are able to kind of internally access that, that sense in a way. But it's, it's really aspirational from that point of view of, you know, psychological safety and just recognizing that, that people will, will have certain threat system activation. They'll feel unsafe at times. And so we have to keep working at it, keep creating that, that psychological safety for people.
- [51:33]
B
I, I've just had a little years ago, so this is before I did my qualification. I was looking to get experience of working in different environments. So I volunteered at this, what it was called then. So obviously it's going back in the day. Physically Handicapped and Able Bodied, which was called an acronym was FAB Youth Club. And there was a young man there who was autistic and everyone else had physical disabilities and he used to be basically dumped off by his carer. That's the only way I can describe it. Every week. And he would stand there stimming and being agitated and obviously these were words that I, I mean, I didn't know stimming back then. And you know, but every week I made a point of going over and just saying, hello, how are you? Hello, how are you? Now every week this was. Went on for months. Hello, how are you? And one day he said hello back and I, I was just like, you know, that's amazing. Like, you know, the, the consistency and the repetition facilitated some space for him to have a word, a voice of something voice. Yeah, there was a connection. And, and I think that that can also be on a physical level as well. And thinking about gorilla hugs, which is something that we started in London on going out doing flash mob hugging. But it was part of a research project that I did for positive psychology. And in fact, in Poland, one of our colleagues. Rory, Alec. Oh yes, and we did, we. We did free hugs in, at the. Before a conference in Poland and oh, there's always bystanders, there's always People that are just hovering around the edges but not coming in. And we're very clear. You don't go. You don't jump on people. You don't. You know, you can have conversations without touching and all that kind of stuff, but it's very clear guidance around it. And then at the. Towards the end of our, like, 45 minutes, hour of standing there, this guy who'd been sat on a bench approached Rory and started talking to him. And this man was clearly street homeless and struggling. And then Rory. And he hugged and they held for quite a long time. And Rory can't say this story without crying, so sorry. And he was afterwards just going, that's. That's. That's the whole purpose of what I do. Rory was saying that the whole purpose is, for me is to bring. To cast light on the people who are unseen, to shine a light on them, to invite them in, to connect with them. And it was just this really. I'm starting to tear up now.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah, I'm feeling it myself, actually.
- [54:55]
B
It's really super powerful. And I think that's where the embodiment part of it comes into that we have to, you know, if we don't feel safe, we need to practice kind of some activation for our, you know, parasympathetic nervous system. And. And we can incorporate that into our meetings with. Whether they're team meetings, whatever, just shake, do something, have a theme tune, do something that help us center ourselves and. And let go of whatever it is that we've just been experiencing, good, bad or indifferent, so that we can be fully present in the situation, and that will facilitate more foundational stuff for creating a psychologically safe environment. And ultimately, we choose. We choose what we choose to do, and we choose when we choose to be vulnerable. And no one should be forced to be vulnerable. So if someone wants to sit silently near the door or stand in the room stimming or whatever it is, it's like not forcing. It's allowing space for everyone to be present because we don't know what people are getting. We. I didn't know that that guy was going to say hello one day. I just kept consistently saying, hello, how are you? You know, and then leaving on his, you know, not. Not hounding him or anything, just like, letting him know he was seen. So that kind of thing is like you. We often have criteria, I think, unspoken criteria of what's a valuable contribution to something and that there's a timely way of delivering that contribution. When actually, for a lot of people, including myself, I often have to take time to process quite deeply before I can articulate. Or I might say something quite quickly and then think, well, I'm just processing it still, that's not my conclusion. And allowing space for all those variables so we're not just cutting people off or shutting people down.
- [57:18]
A
I wanted to sort of check with you, like, if someone is watching this and feeling like as we said a moment ago, that they've never really felt psychological safe, you know, maybe even not at work or in the community and so on sometimes too, maybe not at home, as you said, but you know, where might they begin? What would be a small, self compassionate psychological safety sort of step forward?
- [57:43]
B
So I've reflected on this quite a lot and, and I've written something. So start by being yourself. If it's something, if something doesn't feel safe, that's real. So if it doesn't feel safe to you and everyone else is feeling safe, whatever you're feeling is valid and appropriate for you and you don't need to justify it or explain it in any way. And then maybe ask what's one small way I can show up for myself today? And that might be setting a boundary, speaking kindly to yourself, or finding one person who feels like soft ground. You don't have to leap into vulnerability. Start with noticing what helps you breathe easier. So just noticing again, going back to the breath, noticing it might be go outside, sit on the grass, take in nature, or you know, look for beauty in your surrounds. And that's the beginning of safety. Listening inwards, even when the world hasn't yet learned how to listen to you.
- [58:54]
A
You'Ve had this, this sort of motivation and kind of intuition, I think, around psychological safety sort of in your bones. I think Migella, since you were, you know, a young person, I mean, there was something intuitive there that, that you just wanted to go to that person and to sort of kind of welcome them there and smile and create that, that feeling just a little bit, day by or session by session, a sort of, that feeling of belonging. And it's sort of, it takes repetition, it takes commitment to the, to the longer term in a way and time. Your example with Rory and, and you know that it just takes time for people to, to feel that kind of gradual building sense of safety to, to, to step in and, and to really. Then, you know, so to, to feel safe enough to step in, to have the hug and then to get the incredible benefit of that, which of course is a twofold benefit, you know, Rory went away as well, just sort of really feeling it. And, and so just the repetition, the time, the space, the openness, the acceptance, the belonging, we can all bring our attention to those sorts of things. Well, I really appreciate that. I really love the way that you kind of taking these ideas and trying to kind of disseminate that and to promote the idea of how might we create some psychological safety in the in the world, basically, and in our various communities and organizations and so on. So thank you for that work. But also, Magella Green, thank you very much for speaking with me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [60:43]
B
Well, thank you. I'm very I'm very privileged and grateful to be invited to speak on it. I'm very excited.
- [60:50]
A
Wonderful. Thank you very much.