A (6:24)

And the word that you've said a couple of times there and I, I think feels really important to you is is connection. That there's something about that piece in a group that almost helps to kind of drive and energize the changes that might come about. And I can sort of imagine, you know, the connection in a family, connection in a group, and the role that that really plays.

B (6:52)

Yeah, I think so. I mean, the more I do therapy and the more I've lived life, I really am convinced that we all have really interesting stories to tell. Everybody has an, like a fascinating background that we just don't know about. And group seems to be this place where people get together and can be seen fully. They get to tell their story, the parts that they don't tell very often, and they get an audience who is there to say, okay, I'm listening, or you know what, I don't understand your experience fully, but you're okay. I'm so glad that you shared this with me. And I think it's different than individual therapy. In individual therapy, it's like I work with students at the university I'm at, and, and so they have adults telling them that they understand or that they are okay or I'm glad that you're sharing this with me. But to have one of your peers tell you this, it carries a different weight to it, I think. And so there is a sense of connection that I don't think that we can quite give the same way in individual therapy. And then when you tie it into CFT to compassion focused therapy, I mean, good grief, is there a better setting for the three flows of compassion? You've got compassion from yourself to others and group. You get to practice that you're listening to other people tell their story. You get to tell your story and, and practice having other people give you compassion. You get to have people listen to you and understand who you are. And for people in our groups, that can be challenging. Right. To accept compassion from others. And then of course, you can practice giving and generating and receiving compassion to yourself with an audience and high stakes, right?

A (8:58)

Yes. It just really kind of is the three flows in action. And people get to learn about it, they practice it. There's almost an exposure element to it because of those fears, blocks and resistances to some of the flows and so on. So there's, there's a little bit of exposure and habituation and getting used to the three flows of compassion. And you can sort of practice the self compassion just in real Time with encouragement, but maybe even sort of feedback and maybe even people noticing perhaps that leans more critically, more towards self criticism and kind of shaping, I guess, shaping self compassion, which is actually just, I'm thinking out loud. But it's, it's, that's one of the hard questions for people, isn't it? Is, you know, like what, what do I say or what do I do, you know, really to, to be compassionate towards myself, you know, I, even if I'm feeling empathy and sympathy towards my own suffering, what do I do? And so the group really helps to, to kind of shape all of that.

B (10:04)

Honestly, I love the way that you described that. Like, I think you said the word habituation where it's like, yeah, I get to practice this and then I get to hear what people like. People are going to give me feedback about the way that I'm talking to myself. And it's, it's pretty common for people in a group setting to say oh, that was stupid, I can't believe that I said that. But then you've got other group members who say well, hold on a minute, what you're saying is actually helping me out right now. So thank you for sharing what you're sharing. So it's not even like, it's not even so much, I guess. Sorry, I'm getting tongue tied. I think these three flows build off of one another where by being compassionate to another person, they're practicing in real time saying things that they could then turn inward toward themselves. And with the help of the group and the group leaders, people can practice this and get feedback and talk about the fears, blocks and resistances that you were talking about. I think that's where that's what group therapy is. We can do all of these exercises and practices and visualizations and they're good, but it's all about the process that occurs and then the fears, blocks and resistances to the exercises that I, that I like to focus on in group.

A (11:34)

You initially. Well, I mean it sounds like yes, you've, you've been kind of focused on the, the process and, and the group process and how helpful that can be. As I mentioned earlier, you, you helped pull together the, the participant workbook and, and I guess clinicians guide for CFT groups. Tell us a bit about maybe the, the structural elements of it. First, firstly, sort of in terms of, you know, what is a compassion focused therapy group and what might it involve and, and how might people step through all of that to, to explore things like, you know, shame and fear and vulnerability and self criticism? Of course.

B (12:15)

Yeah, I like that a lot. So I Met Paul in 2016. I think some professors at our university went over and met Paul and we were trying to find ways to infuse Compassion into the groups that we were doing here at our university. And we were coming across Chris Germer and Neff's work and it felt good. And they said, if you're wanting to do this clinically, go talk with Paul Gilbert. All roads lead to Paul. And so they went and chatted with Paul and he said, yeah, like he, he introduced us to Compassion focused therapy. And in our center we do a lot of group therapy. And so the work that we put together that we compiled in the guide and the participant workbook, that's all the work of Paul Gilbert, Nikki Patrocchi and James Kirby. So like, credit to them for this, like, that is, that is their work. We compiled it and adapted it to a college counseling center. Like you were saying, I tend to be more process oriented in the way that I approach group therapy. I remember the first time that I ran a group, I felt like I needed to follow this guide verbatim. Like, okay, well here's lesson number one. And these are the exercises that we do in lesson one. Here's lesson two. This is, these are the exercises. And pretty quickly I realized this is not going to be good for group therapy. This like overly structured approach. Like if you're missing a moment of connection, to have a moment of connection later, you're kind of missing out on the point of group therapy. I think I'm going to share one thing, really my. So we were at a party one time, a Christmas party, and me and all of my in laws were sitting in a room and we were laughing and talking together. And my mother in law, Phyllis, she's wonderful and she's wanting everybody to connect and she says, hey guys, come on, let's play a board game. Come over here, we're going to play a board game. And my partner Jacqueline, in this really good natured way smiled and said, phyllis, we're doing what you're hoping this activity is going to get us to do. We're all laughing and talking together and, and Phyllis laughed and she was like, yeah, yes, you're right. And I think it's the same thing in group. These activities are meant to help group members connect. But if we're missing, like, if, if we're so focused on an activity that we miss the connection, we're missing the point of group, I think.

A (15:11)

Right, right, yes. That's a really helpful Insight that the intention is there and the exercises are sort of developed and included to help with a kind of a connection outcome and to create that ability to have an experience. And then a bit of an inquiry about that and let's discuss it and so on. Uh, but it can sometimes. What's the, what's the metaphor for that? It's not quite putting the cart before the horse, but it's something like that where the exercise itself might slightly get in the way potentially of something that that is. Is starting to just kind of brew, you know, in the group, naturally.

B (16:00)

Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it. Right. If we, if we prioritize the principles that we're teaching over the process of group therapy, we're missing out on what group therapy can provide. You can go, you can go anywhere. Like you could read a book and get all of the psycho education and that's it's needed. Right. We need the psycho education to understand the three circles, to understand how our threat system is developed. But if we, if we prioritize that over the people in the room, I think we really miss out on what group therapy has to offer to people. If we, if we get stuck on the idea of manualizing a therapy, we lose the flexibility that helps us to adapt it to the people that are in the room. So I've never run a group that's the same. Yeah, it's the same ideas that we're going to do, but like the people in the room are going to take the principles in a lot of different ways.

A (17:03)

Another big interest of mine is motivational interviewing. And there's some fairly established research around the idea that motivational interviewing is less effective when it's manualized. In fact, the only kicker there is that therefore MI effectiveness is often highly related to clinician or practitioner skill, I suppose as well, because there's not quite the manual to follow in a way. And it relies on the, the, the practitioner's kind of mental agility and ability to, to move with the client or the person that they're working with and, and to have all of the MI there in the back of their mind ready to sort of deliver or, or, or enact with, with the person. Is there a similar thing there? Do you feel with. With CFT groups in terms of, I guess, the facilitator and, and the role of the facilitator there and how to, how to weave this thing together that that can be quite fluid?

B (18:13)

I love the way that you described that. I feel the same way. So One of my research interests is on culturally modified treatment. And if we, if we try to manualize the way that you culturally modify a therapy, we lose all the flexibility to be able to adapt it to the person that's sitting in front of us. And so much like you're talking about, am I having the background skills in the back of your mind? I think that's the way that group therapy from a CFT perspective is best run. I think that if a client brings up, I don't know, let's say they bring up their critical self. And if your response in the first session is to say, hold on to that thought for four weeks, we get into that in module five. That's not gonna, like, that's not gonna help the client where they are, as opposed to saying, oh yeah, let's talk about the critical self for a moment. Bring it back to the material that we're planning to cover. But you go where the connections are and having that agility, that ability to like, to pivot if you need to, to talk about what's important. It requires you to know CFT well enough that you can do that. And it requires group skills where you're going to be tapping in and bridging with people and connecting. But I think that ultimately leads to a more flexible group that will promote more connection, which is where the healing takes place.

A (19:54)

I've just had the flash to mind. I don't know if you ever watched Friends, but there was that episode where they were taking the big couch down the stairwell and Ross was screaming, pivot, Pivot. Group group therapy is a bit like that, isn't it? We, we want to, we want to be able to pivot. You know, we want to be able to sort of take opportunities as they arise or we'll sort of notice them and then kind of take the opportunity and maybe, maybe still weave it into some of the content perhaps of the day, but doing it in a way that really sort of honors the, the group and, and what they're bringing in that moment. And, and so it's sort of. Yeah, sometimes in research there's a, there's a kind of a treatment adherence type measure. You know, that some research that I was involved with and running compassionate mind training groups in that particular instance. And we were just ticking that that the certain content of each session was, was being. We made sure that it was actually included. And what are your thoughts there? Just that this idea of, of, you know, researching groups and treatment and sort of, I guess, session content adherence.

B (21:15)

Yeah, that's like it's such a good point that you bring up. When I was doing my dissertation that was looking at culturally modified treatments.

A (21:26)

It.

B (21:26)

Was a meta analysis. And why I did that, I have. I'm terrible with stats, but somehow I decided to do a meta analysis. Right? Like, part of the problem with that, with that approach was that you get funding if you have a manualized treatment, and it's hard to get funding if you don't. And so there's this move to be like, do it in this specific way to show that it's effective. But in order to show it's effective, you need to have money. Right. Like this circular logic. But I think, again, we miss out on opportunities to really connect with people. Just. Just a brief example. When I was on sabbatical with Paul in 2024, I went and did the first group, and at the end of the first group, I did not cover half of the material. And I was a little bit anxious because I was like, oh, crap. Like, I want to. I want to appear somewhat competent in front of Paul. And this is his work, right. And I'm wanting to do it justice. And after I. I was on a zoom call with Paul, and I said, hey, we didn't get through half of the material. This is. And I explained what we had done. And in his response, stays with me. If you've ever heard Paul, he's got this delightful accent, and he's like, derek, that's brilliant. We need clinicians to understand the therapy well enough that they stay in the moment, that they stay with connection, that they're able to adjust course. And then he shared this metaphor where he said, you wouldn't go out in a desert with a map. And. And the map says that there's water five miles east and you're at an oasis. You wouldn't say, everybody pack up. There's water's five miles east. Let's keep moving. No, you'd stop and drink where you were. And so we need therapists to understand that a manualized approach is not what we're going for here. We're trying to help people understand the principles so that they can connect with each other. And that. That. That metaphor is stuck with. It's like, kind of funny to think about leaving a water source to go find water five miles out in the desert.

A (23:41)

Yes, that metaphor really, really hits home, actually, doesn't it? And the key is to be able to know what water is and to be able to see it when it kind of arises and to be able to then, you know, have that kind of wherewithal and perhaps even courage and compassion really to, to move towards the water, the water that you see, the oasis that you see, and just bed down there for a while. It takes, it's sort of a degree of confidence and that sort of thing to be able to do that. Especially when there's a map telling you that there's another water source over there. So there's courage in there, there's wisdom. All the qualities of compassion really arise in the group facilitator. Can, can you riff off this idea of process oriented CFT groups a bit more then, you know, like, what, what are you really thinking about there and how might that look and what sort of possibilities open up really when you take that, that approach?

B (24:48)

Yeah, I love this question and I love, I loved your statement that you said we need to know what water is. Yes. That's like so brilliant. I love, I'm taking that with me. Like, knowing what water is is so helpful because I think sometimes we think water is when people are agreeing with each other or giving each other like, oh, I like, that's the way that I feel too. But the water might also be challenges. So this idea of courage to stay with difficult conversations, like one oasis that I'm thinking about in a group that happened while I was with Paul. I, I used a client's name in the wrong way. For the first half hour. I, I used the wrong name. I was calling her Rachel. I'm just making up names right now, Rachel instead of Sue. And I kept calling her Rachel. Well, it was probably like, I don't know, that would be really different. Let's just say Rachel and Rebecca for the not making me appear like completely incompetent. So I'm calling Rebe Rachel. And for a half an hour she didn't correct me. And then one of her peers said, hey, Derek, her name's Rachel. And I don't know, you, you were.

A (26:05)

Calling, you were calling her Rachel. Her name was Rebecca.

B (26:09)

See, I can't even get it right here.

A (26:12)

Sorry.

B (26:13)

No, but like, but like the courage of that client to say, you're doing it wrong and then I don't know about you, but when I make mistakes like that, my, my internal response is immediately like, hey, don't worry about it now. That's not what I do. I'm like, you idiot. Why, why are you calling her the wrong name? But then I tried to like slow down and use the, the CFT principles and we stayed with what it was like. So like, rather than moving on to Talk about the next principle. I wanted to say, what was that like for me to call you the wrong name?

A (26:49)

Yes.

B (26:49)

And her response was like, well, it's not that big a deal. And I'm like, I could imagine that it might be a big deal if somebody was calling me. So we're working through the fears and blocks and resistances and then asking the group, what would it be like for you if you were called the wrong name? And then hearing different opinions. Right. Like some people are saying it wouldn't bother me, others are saying it's fine if it's somebody else or it's fine if it's me as long as it's not somebody else. So then we can like dive into the flows of compassion and process what it's like to have this experience of me messing up. Like I think that's one of the beauties of group is a mess up is just an opportunity for connection. If you, if you're willing to stay with the discomfort of the mistake that you've made. Maybe it's really like staying with like you were talking about.

A (27:48)

Yes. And I can imagine that there's actually a whole series of CFT related principles that are in that one moment, you know, because I can sort of, I can imagine the three circles are at play to a degree, you know, like where what's, is there a threat system activation there for the person who's being called the wrong names, such that they're sort of in more of an appeasement kind of responding where they're just sort of not wanting to say anything, you know, that sort of thing. The three flows are certainly present. The, the person who spoke up and, and kind of, you know, that there's sort of like healthy boundaries a bit there and that the kind of the confidence, courage that it takes to, to do that, you're able to then bring the, the way that self criticism can be a, a very, you know, easy, easy present sort of part of any given situation and, and what it means to, to sort of, you know, kind of work through the, the self criticism and so on. And you know, we've, we've just done session, structured sessions 1, 3, 5 and 9 or something, you know, like. But in that one moment.

B (28:57)

Exactly. Yeah. I mean we, we bring in apology and forgiveness and as a therapist like learning to say I'm sorry full stop, you don't need to say I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I'm sorry if you misconstrued it. But it's like I'm sorry and Then I'm going to share my inner world and say, I'll tell you when. One, I'm really grateful that you told me that I was using the wrong name. I imagine that must have been scary to say. What, what got you to say that to me? Was it scary for you? So we're going to explore the courage that it takes to stand up to a leader. I'm also going to share power as much as I can in saying, like, what is it like for others in the group to have me do this? And then we're going to explore that. We all have a different life history and because of those life histories, each one of us is going to have a somewhat different response. Maybe and that's not our fault, but it is our responsibility. It is our responsibility to work with the givens of this, of this group. And, and then I'm just gonna, I'm also going to tell them I noticed that my threat system turned on and I felt a little bit embarrassed and I felt, I felt a little bit ashamed that I did that. But then as I like slowed down, I thought, well, I didn't do that on purpose. I care about you. I do care about you and I want to make sure that I call you the right name. So I'm, I'm really grateful that you called me out. So it turns into a, like what, what is a moment turns into Maybe that's a 10 minute oasis that is bringing in lots of different principles that we can name and say that we're going to use that later and I'll just share. In this particular instance, one of the group members shared with me, like, I've never had a therapist apologize to me before. I've never experienced that. And it like, it makes me tearful right now thinking about it where it's like, what a cool thing that we as therapists get to do, that we get to be humans in the room with other humans and we get to share power and authority in ways that maybe others don't. So this way of being like as therapists is really, really important to be practicing the skills that we're asking others to practice. I think, and I hope in me like now my, my, my critic is turning on and being like, you just sounded so self aggrandizing. I hope that's not the way it came across. It was just such a cool experience to connect in that moment.

A (31:48)

Yeah, no, I, I think the, the example exemplifies the, the sort of transformative power of connection as you've phrased it. You Know that this, this moment of real, authentic, deep kind of connection where we not only share power, as you were saying, also we share vulnerability too. And the, the therapist is able to, you know, sort of express their vulnerability as much as anybody. And that idea of we're all human is so key to that that we all have tricky brains, as Paul would say, and the facilitator as well. And you know, self conscious emotions are never far away for all of us and the sort of, with the vulnerability. Because in some ways I was talking to an MI colleague last week about Patrick Bertiom about vulnerability and he says that in some ways vulnerability has a kind of a sort of a weak connotation and in some ways it has a very, very strong connotation. And, and this is an example of that, of being able to bring the strength that can go along with vulnerability and the courage that can go along with vulnerability. And we're expressing that and the connections deepen and all of a sudden the group is just, yeah, sort of much further along in a way than it might have otherwise been.

B (33:15)

Yeah. And as a group therapist you can name that for clients. Like you can name, I imagine, like I imagine that calling the group leader out for you using the wrong name, that's a vulnerable thing to do. And it took courage to do that. And then we can tie that back into this brain state idea of what got you to do that, what, what is it that made you decide that you were going to stick up for your parent here? And then we're tying it back into the compassion is a, an algorithm, a motivation and tying it back into. Yeah, we have motives in here to try and be helpful to each other. So we're constantly like weaving in ideas that are found throughout a guide. And if we know it well enough then we can like, then we can bring those in. And I think a real life example is going to be so much more effective than a vignette of sorts.

A (34:16)

I must admit. I do notice that you are very naturally, I think, or maybe it is a practice skill, but you are naturally very, very warm, attentive, you have a lot of competency around listening and empathy. And you know, there's a, and I'm not trying to sort of, you know, embarrass you or that sort of thing either now, but what are your thoughts there about just therapist characteristics? Because there's the knowing the model and knowing the content and the exercises and being able to use those and bring those into a given moment and, but there's real, real sort of therapist and group facilitation and just personal characteristics that the facilitator might bring to it as well.

B (35:14)

First. That's really generous of you. Thank you. And it's just making me think back to. I don't remember who said this on one of your podcasts, but you were talking about Maya Angelou and the statement that people are not going to remember necessarily what you said, but they will remember the way that you made them feel. And that, like, that is, I hope that's a guiding wisdom for us as therapists. We, we can use the right words, but if we're not using it with the right tone or if we're, I mean, it's the stuff that we, that we know from Paul's work already. But the tone and texture of the way that we say things matters so much. And I personally think the more we practice compassion focused living, the better we get at it. And it's kind of consumed my life, honestly, since, since I met Paul. It's like, and you've had other people say this, it felt like coming home. It just felt like this, this fits, right? And I'll find myself walking around campus and I will just notice myself, like, smiling and just reminding myself, like, yeah, let's like, try and bring that compassionate smile about. Try and see people with histories that you don't know about. And it, like, it shapes the way that I interact with people. And don't get me wrong, I'm, I'm a turd plenty of the time. But like, trying to practice this compassion focused living, I think it shifted the way that I move about the world. And so I, like, I do think the way that we enter a room is going to impact the way that the group runs. If we are very set on being the expert in the room and having all the answers. I think that's like, if you want to manualize disaster, be the expert all the time and never get anything wrong, that that's your rule to live by. But I think if you're willing to be a human in the room and if you have a friendly smile and, and you genuinely are curious, I think a compassionate mind is a curious mind. And a compassionate mind is like, I'm genuinely interested. Like, I, I genuinely like the people most of the time. Like, I genuinely like people, right, that I, that I meet with. And the longer I get to know them, the more care I feel toward them. And not to embarrass you on that, like, I felt a slight bit embarrassed, but, like, but you have a great way of doing this. Stan, where, like, people feel good when they talk with you. Like, even just a minute ago, it was like, for anybody watching on how to do this, just like, model that, right? Like, just say what you're, like say what you're observing about the person in front of you. Be sincere about it and it, it'll land right. People know if you're faking it.

A (38:22)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I, I, I think that there is that feeling of coming home and recognizing aspects of CFT and compassion and, and kind of there's a, there's a familiarity within ourselves and, and at the same time, it's skills that we can practice and develop and get better at. And, you know, whether it be empathy or sympathetic concern or, you know, kind of, you know, some of the, the relationship stuff that we've been talking about it, it's also things that we can develop. So it's sort of a, a bit of both, I guess. What, what would you say are the little clues, little signs that actually compassionate connection is happening here? How do we notice it or recognize.

B (39:21)

Ah.

A (39:22)

And it might not be just because everyone's getting along like you said before. It might be the challenging moments, but what comes to mind there little clues that the compassionate connection is happening.

B (39:35)

Yeah, I love that question too, because I, I, I'm on the lookout. That would be a great book, by the way. Compassionate Clues. Right. How do we know this is happening? I, I really like to watch people and see how they are noticing each other in the group. So when, when I very first start a group, I'm interested to see the way that they walk into the room. I'm interested to see the way that they look around the room. And I typically will start a group by saying, you realize that coming to group is not an easy endeavor. And oftentimes people will be looking at the ground and they might glance up. And if you get that glance and you see like this momentary eye contact, it's like, oh, good. Okay. Like there's a connection. It may not be very noticeable yet, but I am going to draw on this later when we talk about what was it like when you very first came into this room? What the, you don't know each other from anybody else and yet you're here together. What brought you into this room? And as soon as people start answering, you'll just notice that there's glances. And I think as a, like, if you're a good skilled group therapist, you want to name that glance and say Rebecca or Rachel, I can't remember which one. Rachel I noticed that you just looked up and you don't have to answer this, but I'm wondering what was going on for you when John just said that he felt a little bit anxious about coming in here. And then Rachel might say, you know what? I feel anxious, too. It's like, okay, we've got. We've got some connection here. So it's like, it's the body language, it's the. Sometimes it's just asking openly, how are we doing right now? How are we connecting right now? Or what. What's happening in the room right now? I think, as a good, skilled leader is not afraid of silence and recognizing that what you're feeling in a silence, other people are likely feeling too. And then be curious and ask. Paul talks about, like, how much we tend to forecast how people are connecting and not. And his suggestion is to ask. Right. Like, if you're worried about two members and the way that they're connecting, we can do all this for, like, is it okay if I share one more example?

A (42:12)

Yes, please.

B (42:14)

So in the group that I was running with Paul, we did this Learning to Listen exercise. And I was so concerned about two members being paired up because I knew a little of their history, and I thought, oh, I don't know if that's going to be a good match. What do I do? Like, do we, like, do we assign people? Do we let them draw out of a hat? And Paul was like, well, why don't. Like, you're forecasting. Why don't you see what happens and then deal with what happens rather than trying to predict? And these two by chance got put together and it was terrible now. It was like the most fantastic experience that could have ever happened. They connected so well, and it, like, all of my worry and all of this concern that they wouldn't connect, they had this connection through the rest of the group that could not have been manufactured otherwise. So recognizing that we don't have to do this perfectly, I mean, wait for those moments when people have a knowing glance or a smile.

A (43:21)

Yes, yes, we. It's easy to fall into a little bit of an expert trap, isn't it, for us, you know, when we think we know best or we think we can predict, you know, what's going to happen next. And. And there's a kind of a. A humility that goes along with that curiosity to just sort of. Well, I. I guess I don't really know necessarily what. Humans are pretty unpredictable a lot of the time, and let's just sort of see what might happen. You Know, if we were to, you know, kind of just let things unfold naturally, I mean, that's a courage thing as well. You know, so much the, the humility and courage and, and just sort of, sort of that, that kind of steady steadiness, you know, to, to composure, equanimity, you know, all of those sorts of things. Characteristics there for the, there for the facilitator as well.

B (44:22)

Yeah, as you said that it's like I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal from you again, like, compassionate composure. Like, that's a great, like, I, I like that imagery in my mind right now quite a bit. But I'm, I'm not going to get too worked up over what's happening. I'm going to pay attention to what's happening, and I'm going to trust the group enough that we have a collective wisdom to work our way through whatever difficulty we come across. Because hopefully from the very first session, you've established a base of safety and safeness and you've distinguished the two, where the group knows that they are there for each other. They know that if somebody is hurting, people have their best interest at heart. We may not always get along, but my goodness, we are going to be there for each other.

A (45:16)

You mentioned earlier about the cultural sort of factors and culturally adapted work. Your dissertation, I think, was actually in that area, which I hadn't quite clicked before. So that, that was, that was your PhD dissertation, I guess. But yeah, what, how does, what have you noticed there in terms of, I guess, cft, but maybe compassion and self compassion specifically. Like, how does that differ across cultural contexts? Or, you know, what have you discovered about tailoring or adapting CFT groups for diverse populations?

B (45:53)

Yeah, I really like that question a lot too, and it's making me think of what you said just a minute ago as well. Like, just as an example, I. I lived in Korea for two years and learned Korean and spent time with lots of Korean individuals. And I know enough about Korea to probably be dangerous. Right.

A (46:13)

I see.

B (46:14)

That's not the way that I grew up. And so there's all kinds of things that I don't know yet. And I love that CFT is an approach that allows us to remain curious. We can have some stereotypes or ideas in the back of our mind that help guide us, but there's so much more difference within a group than between. And I love that CFT allows each person to be an individual with a unique life history and a unique set of genetics that shapes them to be who they are. I mean, I grew like the family I grew up in, my. My original group has eight members. Right. And we're so different. We had the same parenting, but like. But our experience of that parenting was different. So if me and my brother were in the same group, we could describe the same situation that occurred in very different ways. And I love the humility that you talked about. The idea that I would know more about a person who grew up in Korea than they did is pretty insulting, I think. So if I can. If I can remind myself, be curious, let them tell you their story. Of course I have ideas and training that will be useful. But I think my, My experience with cft, with people from various cultural backgrounds, is that it works really well because they understand that you're not going to claim expert on their lived experience. You're going to be really curious. And it's not their fault that they have the experiences that they've had. They certain, like, I've got. I've got two daughters and they have down syndrome. And I. And I tell members of my group sometimes, or we'll show pictures and say they didn't choose their genetics. This. They don't wake up each day and say, I'm gonna have down syndrome today and see what that's like. Right. It's just the way that you didn't choose your genetics either. You didn't choose the life experiences that you've had. This isn't your fault that you're experiencing the mental health concerns in the way that you are. And we can work in here to figure out ways to. To deal with them more effectively. And that is like, that has cut across culture in my experience. No matter. Like, I'm just thinking through my mind of, like, several clients from various backgrounds. And that that line of thinking that they didn't choose their genetics or their life experiences is so helpful. And so the way they experience compassion is going to be unique to them. And I can be open to and honor that and not. Not force my view of what compassion is upon them. I don't know. Did that make. That was a bit of a ramble. I don't know if that made sense.

A (49:25)

Well, it made complete sense, actually, in a couple of ways. One is, I was just suddenly thinking that the notion of cultural competence is actually, it's a slightly mixed one in a way, because, you know, are we ever really competent to thoroughly understand someone else's culture? That what. What cultural competence has to be is more about cultural humility and curiosity and openness and asking and listening and being ready to be sort of helped along the way by the person themselves, you know, what it means to be from where they're from or the family and so on. But I suppose the other thing that I got from what you were saying is that the same applies maybe to even your own brother in your own household. You know, to sort of assume that, you know, what it was like for him even, is something to give pause to and to. So even whoever the person might be, we want to maintain that humility and curiosity and openness to learning about them because they've had their life experiences that have shaped them and it's not their fault and so on. And so it's quite a broad principle for everyone, actually. And, and it applies across cultural and other diversities as well.

B (50:54)

I love, like, you just kind of summed up where the literature is right now in the world of cultural adaptation as we've moved away from competence to humility to curiosity. And yeah, as you were talking, I was like, oh, something. Something clicked for me where it was where you said, like, think about your brother. And I was like, I'm thinking about my brother right now. And sometimes the people we're closest to or that we think we have the most in common with, we miss out on connection because we don't know their experience unless we're curious enough to say, tell me what that was like for you. And, and trying not to be defensive, but be like, okay, I'm really going to try and understand this from your perspective. So thank you. That, like, I love, like, that's really helpful. The people we're closest to, we may distance ourselves from unknowingly because we assume.

A (51:52)

I guess, that we know them. And I must admit is a little. I've often sort of, you know, how sometimes we say compassion is, you know, easy to. To give to those we love and, and harder for our enemies or whatever. And I've often thought, actually compassion can be pretty hard with our, with people we love because we've. We've got more skin in the game, you know, and, and it matters what happens to them. And so it's much harder to bring humility and curiosity and all of those lovely qualities to, to people we. We really love and, and, you know, kind of care about and worry about, but. But nevertheless, yeah, it is that kind of broad principle of openness to people's experiences. So looking ahead, and I'll let you go in a moment, but just to sort of see what you think, you know, what. What do you see as the future for compassion? Focused therapy for groups, you Know what, what direction do you hope maybe clinicians or therapists or researchers too, or educators might explore nest next? I know you have the compassion focused therapy for groups, special interest group through the Compassionate Mind foundation, for example, but. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Looking ahead?

B (53:15)

Yeah, I mean, like, I know I'm biased with this, but I think that groups are the ideal setting for compassion focused therapy. You really get the opportunity to practice skills in real time and get real feedback from real people. I mean, like, I'm sure you've heard people say something along the lines of, you're paid to do this. You have to say that you need to care about me. When you're in a room with peers who are there because they're wanting to get help, they don't have to be there, they don't have to like. And I don't have to either. Right. But it's a, it's an easier sell with, with group members. So again, I think group is such a great way to efficiently spread the good word of compassion to lots of different people. And I'm hoping that research will continue to look at how effective this approach can be. One thing that I'm interested in is I had never done a tea time before going to England. So midway through the group, we stop and have a very intentional 10, 15 minute break where we have tea and biscuits together and, and it just brings down the defenses and we, like, I, like, I hadn't done it before and I haven't skipped it since. It's amazing that intervention in and of itself is so fascinating. And I kind of want to do a research study where we take a look and see. Maybe we compare groups where you do a tea time and you don't, but then you're taking tea time away from people. So I don't know how ethical that is.

A (55:04)

You have a real eye and ear and nose for culture, I think, Derek, because that sounds like that comes under the cultural thing. I think in terms of the English tea time, and it's an interesting adaptation which you have sort of brought in to some of the other work and, and, and these are the little, little things that matter. But it sounds like in some ways the future, in your view, at least the future of CFD is groups.

B (55:34)

And so I, I think it's pretty fantastic. And as much as we can start to study, like how it impacts cultures differently, I think that would be fascinating too to maybe do some qualitative interviews with people who are in, who are from like, I guess, different cultural groups that maybe are not the majority and see what their experience is. Paul is always talking about. We have so much to learn from our clients, and I think we have an awful lot to learn from clients who don't get a voice very often. So I would love it if that's some of the future too, is getting voices of people that don't get hurt very much.

A (56:17)

Great. Yes. And. And from around the world, really, it. It really is spreads, which is very exciting. Well, Dr. Derek, Grana, thank you for all of this. It's been a very enjoyable and insightful back and forth, really. I. I've thoroughly enjoyed getting a chance to have all this time with you, you know, especially after all these years of. Of knowing. Knowing your work. So thank you for that and thank you for. Yeah. Speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.

B (56:52)

Well, thank you so much, Stan. It's like you'll be mowing my lawn with me come summer, so just get ready to go to work, I guess. But seriously, thank you so much. It's. You're delightful to speak with. I'm sure you've heard that many times, but thank you.