← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T shirt. Today I'll be speaking with a great friend and colleague from the motivational interviewing network of Trainers. Patrick Bertiom is a French Canadian from Montreal. Patrick has a background in sexology and he worked for many years at the Coal Face of suffering, working with those who were experiencing homelessness, was struggling with addictions and were involved in sex work. Through all that work, he learned what it meant to be helpful and to have helpful conversations and the role of qualities like humility, vulnerability, and of course, compassion. A motivational interviewing trainer who travels the world presenting on this topic. We discuss ambivalence, discord, empathy and empowerment, non judgment and safeness and how compassion opens us up and allows us to welcome all of that in. It's a rich conversation jam packed with lots of takeaways. And so I bring you Patrick Bertiom.
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We might get started. Patrick Bertiom, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
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B
Thank you, Stan. I'm very happy to be there with you today.
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A
Yeah, you are a dear friend and I do know a lot about your sort of early work. You really worked at the Coal face, I think of compassionate Action. You were sort of working on the streets with people who were homeless or really struggling with addiction and sort of involved in sex work. And you know, so I wondered if we could start there, just sort of set the scene. What was your work there? And perhaps the lessons really that the people that you worked with and served, the lessons they taught you or the experiences taught you well.
- [01:58]
B
Thank you. Yes, I'm very happy to be there today and share with you maybe the lessons or what I've learned from people that, that, that was on my, my, my, my, my, my Pat. And so, so, so maybe just, just maybe people. It will be obviously, but obvious but my first language is French. I'm, I'm from a little town from out of Montreal where was at the time, I think the one of the biggest Francophone city in Canada at that time. So I start learning English when I came to Montreal, so around 20 years old. So, and, and I decide at that time, so, so just if, if you want to do a great complex reflection or just try to reframe what I say, you're more than welcome. You don't need to ask permission about it. So.
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But.
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So when I came in Montreal, I was really ambivalent to know, to decide in which field that I was looking to study and I decided to go in sexology. So in Quebec you are able to go at the university and only study in sexology. So I did all my years in sexology and.
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Well.
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Lucky or not, when I moved to Montreal I started to stay in a hair area where I didn't know but it was an area of male sex workers. And I figured it out because when I came back from school pulled from some cars slowed down and and asked me if I was sailing myself and things like this. So. So. And then my the the eyes of the. Of the the little country guys was was just open of another.
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Reality and and it's not. And I was looking at that time to find some things to be volunteers and do some things for the community, but also to just help somewhere and just only.
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Do my study.
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So I decided to knock on the doors on different.
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And one of them.
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Was open to let me jump in and help with.
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The people on the street. And it was at the beginning I was working for a community organization who was helping minor prostitutes. So so that's where I start and, and then I well then I, I, I. I was with the organization for five years and then I go in other organization who was more helping adult sex workers.
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So it was very for me it was.
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Well I always said that it.
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My.
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Life teacher it's, it was amazing. How come?
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Well, and, and we will probably discuss about that but I'm very interesting about the importance and the impact of vulnerability and and working.
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Side by side with peoples who was who are stigmatized as the worst.
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Reality which is homeless sex workers, drugs addictions and things like this.
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The kind of seen by people as, as a prey.
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A
As.
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B
As that's the right word.
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A
As a prey. As a pariah of society.
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B
Yeah, exactly yes.
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And to see people in those reality wanting to maintain their own dignity and trying to maintain the willingness of life and try to find their own way of surviving. And.
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It'S really move.
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And.
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It gave myself to really.
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Feel.
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The real horizontal connection with others. Because you really early at the beginning understand that if you keep a vertical relation with them with people it doesn't make any anything. It's it's, it's or, or it stay has has as a give and take relationship which which is not necessarily some things really more equal or things like this. So you learn very fast with.
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People who live in that kind of situation.
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To really step down of your own sea of life and and really understand very soon that your own.
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Your own.
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True your own truth are not the truth of of. Of everyone and and you have to step down of of the of your own.
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Of your own beliefs of what is right and what what is not. And, and.
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And for me that's where I think the biggest learning curve that I had in my life probably be to living.
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Close.
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With those different reality. And that's where also I think.
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It'S really helped me to learn how to.
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To, to really try to avoid any judgmental point of view or and, and, and really open your heart to really. Well, I don't need to go further about compassion with you, but I think it's, it's really where I start.
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Having a really.
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A very, a compassion regard for, for, for, for humanity in general. But but it starts I think with, to be close with those different realities.
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A
Yeah, you, I can sort of picture this wide eyed country boy who came to Montreal this. And you were quite quickly I guess.
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Taught some lessons. You know, people stopping in their cars and you know, sort of approaching you and things like that. And.
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But, but yeah, really this, this sense of, of compassion was already there. You wanted to do some sort of voluntary work, you wanted to help people. You knocked on doors. You were very proactive there and found yourself in, in, in this very, this, this, this different reality that you, you suddenly were in a different reality. And, and people were both terribly vulnerable and at the same time.
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Determined to, to sort of fight for their own dignity and, and their own.
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Sort of decisions in choices in life, I guess. And, and so you know, the, the, the vulnerability on the one hand sometimes.
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And really kind of look after them and fix everything and then on the other hand they sort of can sometimes fight back and we don't want to impose our own reality onto their reality. This notion of you discovered and really understood the diverse realities that people might experience and we don't want to impose our reality especially in that kind of judging.
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Even shaming kind of way, but rather really engage with others others realities and sort of step into that while we speak with them and listen to them and, and try to somehow be compassionate or be, be helpful. What did you notice with the, perhaps the people, the young people or the, the adults too that you were working with? You know, like what, what happens if someone tries to, to step in and fix them, do you think?
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B
But but on my path of, of motivational interviewing, I remember one, one, one one day I read an article from a Swedish person searcher.
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It gave me the, it, it really opened my eyes that basically empathy and, and reinforced autonomy or empowerment are the, the two.
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Basic.
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Important.
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Needs that people.
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Requests are weight from, from others and and the the, the reverse of empathy. It's being judgmental and the reverse of of empowerment it's getting control and and.
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And and and and for me it was very so so.
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Because I was and maybe some things which is important it.
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Prostitute and and and or male sex workers. I'm sorry but but so so there is there is in. There is less peoples who are and at least in Montreal there is less peoples who are there not by choice. It's it's. It's maybe it's. It's for sure if they would be for a lot of them if they would be open to choice something else they would choice maybe something else but with other reality it's for me sometimes different.
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So learning how to give.
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Positive and love regards without judgment without for someone who are in a situation where it's so easy and and I think a lot of of of some people in my head taking from Grant granted that you have some judgment toward them. So so. So so learning to to be further that what they granted towards you with towards the the judgment and and also.
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Acknowledge the the. The Their own autonomy and their own empowerment even if they take some choices which is not necessarily the one that that a lot of people would like for them.
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It's a very.
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Learning process to really open your heart and and and really.
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Try to.
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To.
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To. To put away of your.
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Educational family background or any any beliefs or fate.
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Faith believes that you.
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From where you grew up of what it's right and what it's not. And so so and finding that behind all those stigma there is a human and.
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Well yeah that's where for me I'm so grateful about what I've learned with this this pattern.
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A
Yeah. The The. The male sex workers I guess that you were working with they There was a degree actually that of choice to be there that that. That you know had circumstances be different, perhaps they might have made other choices. But but in in a sense they were making the choice and and perhaps even felt that it was there were some really upsides to that. You know, there was something really functional about that choice for them in in their lives. And then when a worker when a sort of a support supportive type worker comes to sort of be helpful. A lot of these men would have preconceived ideas already that that. That they that this other person would perhaps be more judgmental and more controlling. You know, that that that was well it might have even been their experience previously but that was their expectation now and they they sort of were were ready to have that fight almost you know. And and but to for the for the Support worker to be able to set aside their own biases. I guess, you know, the various biases that they might hold from their upbringing and their life experiences and their values and their, and their education, which was an interesting one that you put in there to set aside those biases and really lean into empathy and sort of autonomy or empowerment, you know, that becomes a wholly different experience then for the man that you're working with as well.
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B
And not everyone but a big proportion of them.
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I was not the first.
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Intervenant or someone who tried to help them.
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So they usually have.
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An easy way to explain their background. And.
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As you said they have the preconscious.
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Bias to think that you want to fix them. And if you're there it's to try to put them away of where they are. And, and this is where the, the spiral and this, the circle are usually put it worse than, than, than helpful. So it's.
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A
Yeah, yeah. There's a sense that maybe for them too there was some ambivalence though that if they anticipate someone's coming in to try to make them change, then they sort of resist. But if a person comes in and empathizes and supports their choices and helps to empower then maybe they discover that there is some ambivalence there. So talk to us a bit about that notion of ambivalence really in the, the people you were working with.
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B
Well but this, this is some things I think I appreciate with, with the, the. The recent book from, from Bill Bill Miller and and also what Alan Zukoff.
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Work with the ambivalence. Because well, when I.
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In.
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With the work with ambivalence that one of the biggest or major motivation of someone's it's to preserve a positive image of ourselves. It makes me so open my eyes of all the strategy that we create as human to, to preserve the positive image of ourselves and even to create a false reality or to lie on things. And.
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That'S where for me it's so important to go.
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Behind and further than that what the person just said say.
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Or do or project of what they were. Because this is some things really for.
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A
Me.
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B
It did a big shift in my head to really realize that.
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To really change some things in our lives.
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We need to be vulnerable and asking for help and having some doubt on ourself or on what we do.
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Request vulnerability if we are not able to acknowledge that it's not necessarily the best for us. So we are kind of torn between.
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Preserve a self positive self image and at the same time Wanted to.
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Well, the first maintain our own autonomy. But also it's so also.
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Being open of the doubt that we have that what we do, it's not necessarily the best. So. So we are kind of torn or squeezed in those. So this is for me the first ambivalence. It's the first ambivalence. It's not necessarily toward the behavior or the bad habit. The first ambivalence.
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It'S do I feel enough, comfortable enough secure to share with the person with who I speak that I have some doubt about some things. This is for me the first ambivalence usually.
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That we have. It's the ambivalence to disclose.
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To. Well, to be vulnerable to disclose ourselves and to doing this. You have to feel secure. If you are not feeling secure, it's very hard to disclose yourself. So for me it's the first ambivalence when you are in interaction with others.
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Because with yourself.
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To be honest.
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I don't remember having meeting someone and when I look my own life I have sometimes bad habit or, or and others having some, some bad habit and.
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I never really I think meet someone who never, never at all have a small bite of doubt of what they are doing. It's not necessarily the best. So, so, so, so with ourselves.
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This is some things very, I think frequent and, and the, the. The. But. But to disclose with others this is the big step and I think the first ambivalence that people having it's the ambivalence to be genuine and authentic and disclose yourself because you know that if you are doing this you are at risk that the other ones will take the opportunity to want it to work with you, to do something else and to, to behave b. Better and things like this. So, so, so you are kind of quite.
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Torn or squeezed with that.
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A
I had someone talk, I had someone talk come and see me recently and I'd seen her a couple of years ago and then I hadn't seen her for a couple of years and the last I'd heard was she'd started a new relationship and so on. But when I saw her just this week, the relationship had, had ended. And one of the things that she said which was sort of. Yeah, it was, it was a bit hard to hear in a way. But she sort of said that she didn't, she hadn't come back to see me in that two year period because she knew that if she came to see me and started talking about the pros and cons of this relationship and the way that this relationship was sort of really becoming problematic for her that she would really have to then start to really confront the idea of whether change was actually necessary. That she hadn't come along because she knew that expressing the ambivalence that she was feeling inside to me would almost.
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Convince her to have to end the relationship. And I think that's kind of a little bit what you're describing that people feel maybe an internal ambivalence. On the one hand, they might have this sense of wanting to maintain a positive image of how things are, but then there's also a kind of a self actualizing, almost instinct in there as well. An instinct towards growth and change and well, being and improvement and, and so, you know, in any given moment people are a bit torn about what they're doing and, and, and so on. But to actually take that step, to go and then express that ambivalence to somebody, you know, that makes it real sort of thing. And, and it, it, it's, it feels, you know, then, then, then there's another, another ambivalence which is, do I speak about this or don't I? Because even if that person's not going to try to tell me what to do about it, I still have to examine it. I still have to examine my own, my own feelings of ambivalence. And there needs to be that real sense of safeness and security in that relationship and real courage and strength in the person themselves to be in that position of vulnerability and really examine with someone else these two sides or these mixed feelings that they have about what they're doing.
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B
That. That's, maybe that's one of the reason that I'm so interested of that topic. Because it's, it's, for me it's like doing a coming out. It's the day that you expressed yourself of, of being gay. You can, you cannot go back. It's, it's so you have to live with, with, with, with the.
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Genuineness and the authenticity. But you are now also realize that it's very hard for me to say the right word. It's pray.
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A
Is it pariah? Is that the word that you.
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B
But you know when they have.
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The weak bird on the floor and they can be trapped by a bigger bird or some things like this. Right.
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A
Pray is the word there, I think. Yeah.
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B
Because it's mostly the same word in French. But so, so, so you know that when you disclose yourself, you're now prey. So, so it's, I see. It's a big.
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It'S a, it's a Big courage. Like as you said it's, it's, it's, it's the courage towards with yourself and it's also courage with, with the others. And, and that's where for me I, I, that's why I, I really appreciate all the recent work on. On ambivalence because first, first for me the to preserve the positive self image. It's, it's, it's for me I, I truly understand that it's a really big motivation and it's torn with the fact that you want to be genuine and your own values of integrity and congruence and coherence. So this is a big ambivalence and I think the other ones it's wanted to avoid suffering. So we do a lot of thing to avoid suffering. But like you just explained with the person who just came to see you.
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She was really probably torn of.
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What it's, the less suffering it's to stay within the couples or to go away and you're torn and the level of making your choice it's the level of suffering of what you feel feeling. And, and for me I always try to maintain those two motivation when when, when I work with someone because I, I really thinking of. Of.
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Of the others have his own self protection and self of feeling secure enough to really discover clothes themselves and to be really conscious of of. Of. Of the fact that it's that we, we are all have our own path and, and the protection that we have are not there for nothing. It's they are there for to preserve your. Your surviving.
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Social.
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Interaction. So it's so, so, so for me it's two components very important to never.
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A
Forget it's and, and as the great Australian sage Kylie Minogue once said, better the devil you know sort of thing. And we often are quite fearful of change because we don't actually know whether the suffering is going to be better or worse or what's going to happen if we make that change. And so sometimes we like you say, maintain that sort of positive image about how the way things are right now and just sort of, you know, without change. We started with sort of talking around discord which is that that sense that if people feel judged and controlled they are much more likely to push back and resist. Even if they just anticipate that they're going to be judged and controlled, they push back and resist versus if we approach them with empathy and autonomy, support and empowerment. So there's the sort of the discord piece we've been talking about the ambivalence piece that in amongst that people are just naturally feeling different ways about things and feeling. Having mixed feelings about, you know, kind of whether to stay the same or whether to make a change, but even whether to bring this up with somebody or the, you know, to. To dare to discuss these doubts, you know, that they might be feeling with others. Where does compassion fit in?
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B
In.
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A
In. In the kind of like almost like a little triangle there for you. What. What's the compassion piece?
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B
But.
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There is a lot and I would take the opportunity to really be grateful to you because.
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I first meet the compassion focused therapy because of you. And then.
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You'Ve been so inspired for me that I went to be trained with Paul Gilbert. But. But one of the things who really helps me in. In general and. And I think it's also with the lessons with working with on the street. But.
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But I never. I. I tried always to remember that I never met someone who intentionally wanted to.
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Arm themselves or make it their self worse that where they are. I don't know anyone's who wake up in the morning and say how. How can I. How can I harm my health? Oh, I will smoke a cigarette. It's. It's. People are. Don't have any bad intention toward themselves. Toward others this is. Would be another topic. But toward themselves, even someone who.
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Cut.
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Themselves, they're doing it to alleviate their own suffering.
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So.
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There is no bad intention.
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That we have toward ourselves. And so for me it's always important to make the distinction between intention and manners. So what they are doing, it's maybe where we would like to.
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But for me intentionally are really.
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When I work with someone, it's really for me important to really acknowledge the intention of what the person.
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Do or think. And for me this is a really important piece of where compassion helped me. Because for me if we always have the regards that the person don't try to harm themselves.
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It'S really more easy to open your heart to someone else and just realize and to really be curious that if it's not the intention of others, let's try to understand more.
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And that's also for me the difference that we can do between compassion and empathy is the both of them are quite intertwined. But it's still for me really have a strong and deep belief that no one tried to harm themselves and had the intention to harm themselves. This is important for me it's really helpful to really expand your. Your compassion towards others. And that's. That's for me the, the things. It's. It's really important.
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More than ever And I think the. I repeat that the book from Bill and what Helen Zukoff come up with Ambivalence really helps me to have another. Also another point of view about compassion about ambivalence.
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And more than ever when I see that the person that I work with, it's very hard for that person to too much speak about the target behavior that we are discussed to. I really go back.
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To the ambivalence that they have within themselves.
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And I tried to. More.
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Like today I gave a supervision and the person share a tape where the person was really.
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Looking to.
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Try to express how much she was proud to. To be able to do really many things by herself. And she really explained in the tape how much she was happy to be able to do things by herself. And at the same time she was not necessarily very able to get out from her own home and from. From where she lives.
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And the person who held them was really.
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Digging in the fact of the importance to get out and to do things by herself and things like this. And we really was able to feel that the person took some distance of the. Of the discussion. And for me in those kind of situation it's really important to go back of the. Of the pure or the basic ambivalence which is.
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How is it for you to feel torn between the fact that you are proud of what you are doing by yourself and the fact that it's very hard for you to go out and do things out of your home. How does it feel to feel squeezed or torn.
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Within yourself.
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And avoiding talking too much about the behavior but talking more about the. The inner tension to have those two parts and. And really let them express how is it to feel torn. And that's where for me that more that we are able to acknowledge.
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That it's normal to feel torn and, and. And to welcome the fact that she. That. That the person or. Or squeeze or are really intention with that. It's like some things release at that time and then it will be more easy to speak about the behavior or things like this, but keep the agenda on the behavior in those situations. For me it's just put it some oil on the fire. It's. I don't know if you say it's say the same expression in English, but.
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It just creates some more tension.
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A
So it's.
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Yes, judgment from us or from the listener in that instance really closes us down. It sort of. It takes us to a much more inflexible closed kind of place. Whereas compassion opens us up and we can be sort of curious about what this human life is like for this person. And, and compassion helps us to. As, as Paul Gilbert talks about the tricky brain and it's, it's not our fault and, and, and so we're able. And Ambivalence is actually one of those things that is built in really. That's the, that's the book from Bill and Alan's work. Alan has been a guest on Compassion in a T shirt before. So if anyone wants to think or listen to some more about ambivalence, Alan's episode is really great too. But yeah that ambivalence itself is just part of the human brain and to have second thoughts, to have certain doubts, to wonder about is it. Is this the best way to go or is that the best way to go? Actually we can really honor that process. And, and, and there are real benefits to ambivalence. You know, it helps us think it through, you know, carefully. And what I really like.
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B
I'm sorry I really like, I really like the call that for me ambivalence, it's, it's just the signal that we have to slow down. It's, it's so, so, so so and, and, and it's just because we are not totally attuned with, with. With the, with the. And I think if we, if we think like this, if we think that intentional. We wanted. We don't want to arm ourselves. So what we are doing, it's, it's the, it's the things that. I think it's that we think it's not necessarily the best, but it's some things that it's less suffering that doing something else that we don't know what will happen if we doing it. And the craving in general of change, it's not necessarily easy also to feel. It's.
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We, we. We frequently relate craving to addiction. But, but for me, for any kind of. Of behavior, it's making some change. You can feel some craving and, and craving are, are an uncertain uncertainty. It's, it's, it's. It's not an easy feeling. It's so.
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So wanted to avoid data. I really like. Sometimes I use the metaphor of being. I so remember the first time I've been in the pool and I remember staying on the, on the.
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Edge, on the edge of the pool and my parents was just behind me and say well don't worry, everything will be all right. And I was like never. I don't want to.
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Leave this. So sometimes we stay in some behavior or beliefs or things like this because it feel more secure than go somewhere else where we don't know where we will go. So it's, and it's for me, and I frequently use that metaphor because I think most everyone can relate with that metaphor.
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So for me, and that's where self compassion is also another helpful way.
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We don't stay on the hedge for the pleasure of suffering. We stay on the hedge because.
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It'S more secure. Even, even if rationally we know that it's not necessarily the best for us.
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A
Yes, exactly. I think one of the points that I'm getting from you is that even harmful behaviors will often have an intention behind those behaviors to actually alleviate or prevent suffering in a way or at least to create a sense of safety.
- [46:19]
And that sort of thing. It's often somewhere in the threat system that we're dealing with the fight, flight, freeze, appease. We're sort of dealing with anger and anxiety. We're trying to sort of not feel that suffering. And so we cling on to the edge metaphorically or literally rather than make a change. You just mentioned self compassion and you'd previously talked about a sort of internal tension and it made me think about how, you know, in some ways we've been talking about a more interpersonal dynamic that's happening between people. But it occurs to me that there's an internal dynamic that can often be the same, you know, before a person's even worried about seeking any sort of help or conversation about it, that, that there might be different parts of the person almost that are in discord with each other. And that if, if a certain part is, is kind of pushing or even demanding and then kind of criticizing and, and sort of, even if it is in the direction of change, then another part is pushing back and, and arguing back and, and sort of getting louder at the same time. And we're left with this, this internal discord and maybe self compassion comes in there somewhere. But yeah, what are your thoughts about that more internal version of all this?
- [47:50]
B
Well, sometimes, and I just hope that I will not be judgmental right now, but I'm amazed sometimes when I give trainings how much people, when I talked about ambivalence, they are so thinking about their own patients and.
- [48:13]
Like if their own. The ambivalence of the patient are so quite different than their own ambivalence. And for me, more than ever I really try in my training to come back to their own experience. I think the experience of ambivalence, it's the same for everyone.
- [48:36]
The patient are not different than what we are and the discomfort, the general discomfort of ambivalence it's the same for you Stan that it is for me. And it's just only the context or the target which are sometimes different but the feeling are the same. And.
- [49:00]
And.
- [49:02]
That'S for me it's really important to really try.
- [49:09]
To offering.
- [49:14]
Some empathetic listening for ourselves but also compassion for ourselves toward the fact and that's where for me if we realize that it's not intentional to arm ourselves.
- [49:31]
It'S much more easy to welcome and.
- [49:36]
To just be less rude with how we can be with ourselves. For sure every time then I say this people say well okay, I agree with you but it doesn't resolve anything.
- [49:55]
And but.
- [49:58]
That'S where for me.
- [50:03]
The fear that we have to disclose our own ambivalence it's because we are afraid that the other person will take the opportunity to really try to fix you or the person will try to convince you that well yes it's true you should change and those kind of pressure.
- [50:31]
Who make us really.
- [50:37]
Vigilant or very.
- [50:41]
Yeah.
- [50:45]
That the person will take the opportunity.
- [50:50]
To be dominant.
- [50:53]
To.
- [50:56]
But it's the same with ourselves.
- [51:00]
It's not different.
- [51:03]
The self criticized part will take the opportunity if you have some doubt and you just making realize the woman that you just speak about. I would be curious to ask her how long that she was thinking that she should or not.
- [51:25]
Step out of her relationship. So my God, how much energy she probably step in to just be ambivalent and have it and the self criticize.
- [51:42]
If you just open a window or just open a window of doubt the other part of what is right in your life and you should do will take the opportunity to start give you.
- [52:01]
So that's why for me it's really important.
- [52:06]
To just welcome both of them and making that's where for me the call or the signal of slowdown. That's where for me if we are ambivalent it just to realize that we have different part of ourselves or.
- [52:28]
In attention or in a battle and we have to slow down to just welcome the different part and both sides of it and maybe taking that time just to we say that it's a slowdown movement but we could say also that it's a movement to be aligned with our own values, with our own truth. And that's where maybe.
- [53:04]
That habit long time ago was okay at that time but it may be not okay in the time today.
- [53:14]
But we are so used or so feel secure with that habit that it's hard for us to think that we have to say goodbye to it so the tension can start.
- [53:31]
So it's not to start be criticized with any part of it. It's just to welcome and that's where for me the compassion is very useful. And then when we welcome those different parts, it's more easy to really take the time of, of watching of what it's aligned with where I am now and what, what maybe I want for my future. So, so, so, so, so, so that's for me the, the, the. Yeah.
- [54:07]
A
You and I are both big fans of motivational interviewing and, and just as I'm listening to you there, I can sort of, you know, translating it into my it there really is that change talk and sustain talk that might be going on that the person's arguments for change. A part of them might be exploring that and then their arguments against change and, and they might be exploring that and there's ambivalence there and mixed feelings feelings and sometimes feelings of doubt and that sort of thing. But then there's this, this internal process of, of self criticism that then comes into the conversation and, and all of a sudden might be criticizing one side or the other, but is also just simply criticizing the fact that there is ambivalence at all. And, and sort of. And that's what the person's worried that, that a therapist or a clinician or a practitioner is going to do or your friend or a friend or a family member or whoever is going to criticize them for their ambivalence. But that can happen as an internal process.
- [55:15]
And. Well, actually just to sort of stop there for a sec, like what's. I guess we need to sort of think about therefore the intention and the function of the self criticism. And I think you would say we bring compassion not only to the ambivalence but also to that critical part as well. So yeah, what are your thoughts there?
- [55:37]
B
But that's why for me it's so useful just to go back with the person to say how is it to feel torn between.
- [55:50]
The sustain and the change targets? How does it feel to be squeezed.
- [55:57]
So for a moment or two just put on the side the behavior or the bad habit and just speaking about the discomfort to be squeezed between the two of it. And I think more that you are welcome in the fact that with the discomfort and that it's irrational to be squeezed right now.
- [56:25]
And it's so uncomfortable to be on one side and the others and things like this and to be so welcome with ourselves or when we have someone with who I help.
- [56:46]
And that's where for me the work on ambivalence right now to just.
- [56:54]
Normalize.
- [57:02]
The fact that it's incoherent to be.
- [57:08]
Feeling like this and just to be acknowledged about that there is some things to relief.
- [57:20]
So that's where for me it's really important to welcome and acknowledge.
- [57:28]
That ambivalence and that discomfort.
- [57:33]
A
There really is. In a lot of your work and our conversations over the years, you really sort of. Sort of emphasize the, the role that vulnerability plays there, that humility kind of plays. And then also therefore the, the role that that strength and courage plays, you know, to, to just be in that place of, of ambivalence and being able to kind of sit in that discomfort and, and explore it and slow things down and, and you know, kind of take the benefits of that, you know, that in terms of what might eventually be decided, you know, while at the same time softening some of that tension and discord or you know, self criticism that that's kind of there.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah.
- [58:30]
For me it's. Some things that it's. I saw make me amazed how much the word vulnerability from. I think most of the language in the world can mean.
- [58:46]
Strength and can mean weakness.
- [58:56]
So for me.
- [58:59]
That'S, for me, vulnerability and humility are quite connected together. And being humble that, that it's. That, that it's. That it's hard. It's that to, to. To be humble that I'm not without doubt and I, I'm not a superman and, and I have some weakness. And, and, and the fact that I realized that I have some weakness I think make me stronger. And, and, and, and that's where for me the, the, the, the, the, the vulnerability. It's, it's very important. The problem in general, I think in communication or in relationship, if you are just a little bit vulnerable, you are at risk that if the other ones can say well so you can change if you're. It's so easy. You just have to do this or.
- [60:04]
Are starting to say oh yes, me too. I feel the same as you. I, I had the same problem few years ago and you know, I did this thing. It's so hard for people or just welcome and, and, and and give space of, of of of the, the. Of the vulnerability of others. And, and it just remind me.
- [60:34]
Another supervision.
- [60:38]
And the practitioner, the person said well.
- [60:46]
It's so hard because when I come to see you after the session, I so want to change and I'm very keen to do some things. And then three days after well things go away.
- [61:04]
And then.
- [61:06]
The person, the practitioner start and say well what you can do to making sure that you can maintain the and we stopped the tape and I said well what the person just said.
- [61:24]
And how before going further we are able to welcome the person just disclose herself she's being nude.
- [61:37]
From the other person to say that it's not easy for her. Can we just acknowledge and welcome what the person said before want to move into something else and for me.
- [61:53]
More we are able to acknowledge, welcome and sometimes taking step further saying to someone, saying to someone it must be hard for you to be squeezed in those situation. Even if the person said no it's not very hard for me. The person just realized that it's possible in front of me to say that it's hard.
- [62:26]
So even if it's not the case, it just give her the signal that she could be vulnerable and secure to be herself and if she are able to doing it it will be more easy for her to do something else. It's it and it's for me it's so important to, to really be attuned of, of what the person and, and, and to ourselves too. It's, it's to ourselves too. It's. Well I think I, I, I, I, I frequently forget that it's the same with ourselves. So it's at least it's the same with myself.
- [63:06]
A
So it's yeah not wanting to put you too much on the spot then. But I wondered in amongst all of that if someone is sort of struggling with this kind of internal tug of war and this internal tension and there's a part that wants change, a part that perhaps doesn't want change, a part that feels critical of that. What would be a little compassionate message I guess that you might offer that that just kind of helps them move forward.
- [63:39]
B
But, but it's mostly what I said before but I think really explore the good intention that we try to do to ourselves before starting to judging it. Really acknowledge and realize the good intention that you do toward yourself. It's, it's sometimes we, we so too fast forget and go to somewhere else. And, and, and, and, and honestly when, when I look my own.
- [64:15]
Evolution I think more than I did this with myself more it was more easy to doing it with others. So it's, it's so, so it's and it's, it's still not easy with my inner.
- [64:33]
Communication or discourse but.
- [64:38]
But, but, but, but but the things I, I think I appreciate more today. It's, I'm, I'm More conscious or.
- [64:52]
More faster than before my self criticized voices and when those criticized pop up instead of oh no I don't want to think like this. I'm more like what what you would what you try to say to me. What what is your your good intention? And and then when I realize more that good intention it's more easy to say well thank you for that good intention and to step back and say well I think.
- [65:29]
I'm good enough.
- [65:34]
Thank you for the signal and I will waiting for you. But usually at least if I based on my own.
- [65:47]
My own life it's.
- [65:51]
Not very far ago I was more like oh no and and I very fighting with myself and really big self criticized voices was was. Was very louder than than anything else and.
- [66:08]
Then and I truly think that if you are not taking the time to listening to to that voice and you want to avoid them more you feed the voice to be louder. So it's so so and I think more that you're welcome and you acknowledge what they said more the voices taking less less presence.
- [66:36]
A
It's yeah well what a. What a conversation Patrick. What a conversation. We've We've covered off on so many.
- [66:46]
Big big topics. Ambivalence and discord and humility and vulnerability and empathy and and empowerment you know versus judgment and and control and and through to the the internal battles and the the self criticism. But of course it all comes back to compassion. But maybe that's just my bias. I'm not sure. Compassion.
- [67:12]
B
I totally agree.
- [67:13]
A
Self compassion maybe I totally agree but.
- [67:17]
B
For me I just maybe compassion help ourself to be less.
- [67:26]
Responsible of.
- [67:31]
The problem of others or things like this.
- [67:39]
The basic reaction to try to fix ourselves or fix others give so much food.
- [67:48]
To maintain the reality and when we have self compassion. Because when I say acknowledge and welcome for me it's kind of a compassion way of.
- [68:03]
Of of to be with ourselves or or with others. So it's yeah. So thank you to you.
- [68:10]
A
Well yes. Patrick Bertiam, thank you very much for speaking with me on compassion in a T shirt.
- [68:16]
B
Thank you very much for the opportunity and thank you everyone to be there and continue to love you yourself. Yeah exactly.
- [68:26]
A
Thanks Mike.
- [68:26]
B
Good thank you.