Podcast Summary:

Compassion in a T-Shirt with Dr. Stan Steindl

Episode Title: Why We Resist Change and How Compassion Helps | Patrick Berthiaume
Guest: Patrick Berthiaume
Date: December 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the psychological and emotional factors behind resistance to change, focusing on ambivalence, vulnerability, self-criticism, and the transformative power of compassion. Patrick Berthiaume, a French Canadian motivational interviewing trainer with extensive experience working with homeless and marginalized populations in Montreal, joins Dr. Stan Steindl to share insights from the frontlines of suffering and behavioral change. The conversation offers practical, compassionate perspectives for both professionals and anyone grappling with personal change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Learning Compassion on the Margins (01:21–10:32)

• Patrick’s Background: Patrick describes arriving in Montreal as a young man, finding himself in a neighborhood of male sex workers, and volunteering in community organizations supporting people facing homelessness, addiction, and sex work.
• “Life Teacher”: Direct work alongside people stigmatized by society profoundly shaped his understanding of compassion, humility, and human dignity.
• “Horizontal Connection”: He emphasizes the importance of stepping out of a “vertical” or hierarchical helping relationship, instead striving for equality and mutual respect.

Quote:

“If you keep a vertical relation with people, it doesn’t make anything. ... you really step down off your own sea of life and ... your own truth is not the truth of everyone.” — Patrick (08:34)

2. Empathy, Autonomy & Avoiding Judgment (12:45–16:44)

• Support, not Control: Patrick discusses the core needs of individuals in change conversations: empathy and autonomy (or empowerment). Their opposites—judgment and control—foster resistance.
• Respecting Choice: Many sex workers had exercised choice within their constrained circumstances. Patrick learned to respect people’s autonomy and not impose his or societal judgments.

Quote:

“Learning to give positive and loving regards without judgment... and also acknowledge their own autonomy and their own empowerment, even if they take choices that ... many people would not like for them.” — Patrick (15:29)

3. Ambivalence: The Hidden Barrier to Change (19:26–26:46)

• Ambivalence Defined: Patrick explains that ambivalence is fundamental to why people resist or struggle with change.
• First Layer of Ambivalence: The primary struggle isn’t just about the behavior, but whether it feels safe enough to reveal doubts and vulnerability to another—"the ambivalence to disclose” (23:00–25:35).
• Personal Example: Stan relates a client’s reluctance to return because talking about doubts would mean confronting change (26:46).

Quote:

“To really change some things in our lives, we need to be vulnerable and asking for help and having some doubt on ourselves or on what we do. ... You are kind of torn between preserve a positive self-image and at the same time wanting to maintain autonomy, but also ... being open to the doubt.” — Patrick (21:42)

4. Ambivalence, Safety, and the Threat of Vulnerability (28:15–33:35)

• Coming Out as a Metaphor: Expressing doubts is like a coming out process—it can’t be taken back, and exposes vulnerability (28:15).
• Self-Protection: People are cautious to avoid becoming “prey” to others’ judgment or to exposing themselves to further pain.
• Ambivalence & Suffering: Change involves evaluating which form of suffering is “less bad”—the discomfort of the present, or the fear of the unknown after change (30:38).

Quote:

“When you disclose yourself, you’re now prey ... It’s a big courage ... for yourself and also courage with the others.” — Patrick (29:12)

5. The Role of Compassion in Resolving Discord (33:35–41:25)

• Empathy vs. Compassion: For Patrick, compassion is grounded in the deep belief that no one intentionally seeks to harm themselves. Even self-destructive behaviors intend to reduce suffering (35:19).
• Intention vs. Manner: He encourages focusing on intentions (often self-protective) rather than behaviors, as a route to compassion (36:05).
• Example from Supervision: When a client appears resistant about leaving the house, the focus should shift to the emotional tension rather than the behavior itself (39:10).

Quote:

“There is no bad intention that we have toward ourselves… So, for me, it’s always important to make the distinction between intention and manners.” — Patrick (35:25)

6. Honoring Ambivalence & Using it as a Signal (42:57–45:30)

• Ambivalence as a Signal: Patrick reframes ambivalence as a natural “signal to slow down” and reflect, not a defect (42:57).
• The Pool’s Edge Metaphor: We sometimes cling to the familiar (even if painful), because the unknown feels riskier—just as a child clings to the pool’s edge (44:27).

Quote:

“Ambivalence, it’s just the signal that we have to slow down. ... We stay on the edge because it feels more secure.” — Patrick (42:57, 45:45)

7. Self-Compassion & Internal Discord (46:19–55:36)

• Internal Ambivalence: Stan and Patrick discuss the same patterns inside individuals—a tug-of-war between parts wanting change, parts resisting, and the inner critic.
• Welcoming All Parts: The solution is not to silence criticism or “fight” with oneself, but to listen for the well-intentioned message underneath (52:06–55:36).
• Compassionate Curiosity: By being curious and compassionate toward all internal voices, the internal tension lessens.

Quote:

“For me, it’s really useful just to go back with the person to say, how is it to feel torn between the sustain and the change targets? ... Just put on the side the behavior or the bad habit, and just speaking about the discomfort to be squeezed between the two.” — Patrick (55:36)

8. Vulnerability & Humility: The Keys to Change (57:33–62:25)

• Vulnerability as Strength: Patrick notes that in most languages, vulnerability is ambiguous—it can mean both strength and weakness. Humility and vulnerability, he says, are intertwined.
• The Risk of Disclosure: It takes courage to acknowledge weakness or doubt, especially when others (or parts of oneself) will rush in to offer solutions or judgments instead of just listening.

Quote:

“The fact that I realize that I have some weakness I think makes me stronger.” — Patrick (58:59)

9. Practical Message: Compassion Toward Inner Critic (63:39–66:36)

• For Listeners: When facing internal conflict, first explore the good intentions behind your thoughts and feelings—even the critical ones.
• Welcoming the Critic: Rather than fighting with self-criticism, greet it with curiosity and see what protective function it might serve.

Quote:

“When those criticized [voices] pop up ... instead of ‘Oh no, I don’t want to think like this,’ I’m more like, ‘What you try to say to me? What is your good intention?’ ... More that you’re welcome and you acknowledge what they said, more the voices taking less presence.” — Patrick (64:52, 66:07)

10. Final Thoughts: Compassion as Foundation (66:46–68:09)

• Dr. Stan summarizes: The conversation touched on ambivalence, humility, empathy, discord, empowerment, and the central place of compassion and self-compassion.
• Patrick’s Closing Remark: Compassion helps us be less responsible for fixing others—acknowledging, welcoming, and having compassion toward ourselves and others is foundational.

Quote:

“Compassion helps ourself to be less responsible for the problem of others ... When we have self-compassion ... it’s kind of a compassion way of being with ourselves or with others.” — Patrick (67:16)

Notable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• “Life teacher ... You have to step down off your own sea of life.” (08:34)
• “Learning to give positive and loving regards without judgment ... and acknowledge their own autonomy” (15:29)
• “To really change some things in our lives, we need to be vulnerable and asking for help ... torn between preserve a positive self-image and ... wanting autonomy.” (21:42)
• “When you disclose yourself, you’re now prey ... It’s a big courage.” (29:12)
• “There is no bad intention that we have toward ourselves.” (35:25)
• “Ambivalence, it's just the signal that we have to slow down ... We stay on the edge because it feels more secure.” (42:57, 45:45)
• “How is it to feel torn between ... change and sustain talk? ... speaking about the discomfort to be squeezed between the two.” (55:36)
• “When those criticized [voices] pop up ... what is your good intention? ... more you acknowledge, less presence [the critic] has.” (64:52, 66:07)
• “The fact that I realize that I have some weakness I think makes me stronger.” (58:59)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [01:21–10:32] Patrick’s background and lessons from street-level compassion
• [12:45–16:44] The importance of empathy and empowerment vs. judgment and control
• [19:26–26:46] Understanding ambivalence as a barrier to both personal and interpersonal change
• [28:15–33:35] Vulnerability, courage and the metaphor of “coming out” as part of change
• [33:35–41:25] How compassion opens up the conversation on change, beyond empathy
• [42:57–45:30] Reframing ambivalence as a sign to pause and reflect, not rush
• [46:19–55:36] The internal battle: self-compassion towards inner discord and criticism
• [57:33–62:25] The role of vulnerability and humility in change
• [63:39–66:36] Practical advice: relating compassionately to your inner critic
• [66:46–68:09] Closing: compassion and self-compassion as the path forward

Tone & Style Reflected

• The episode is warm, inviting, and conversational, with a blend of personal storytelling and professional reflection.
• Focus is on humility, the complexity of human motivation, and an unwavering belief in the healing potential of compassion.
• Both host and guest are honest about their own struggles with doubt and ambivalence, modeling vulnerability themselves.

In Essence

This episode offers a profound exploration of why individuals resist change, the essential role of feeling safe and unjudged, and how compassion—toward others and ourselves—is both the beginning and the end of any meaningful change process.