Ken Burns

Summary

Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend

Episode: Ken Burns (March 23, 2026)

Guests: Ken Burns
Co-hosts: Sona Movsesian, David Hopping (Matt Gourley out on paternity leave)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Conan O’Brien sits down with renowned documentary filmmaker Ken Burns to discuss American history, storytelling, the process behind Ken’s acclaimed works, and their shared obsession with the past. The conversation is playful, insightful, and razor-witted, blending Conan’s irreverent humor with Ken’s deep historical perspective. They touch on the enduring relevance of history, the making of Burns’s latest series The American Revolution, and the importance of hope and perspective in turbulent times.

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1. Opening Banter: Generations, Family, and Filth (01:19–11:13)

• Conan and Sona swap stories about navigating traditional parents while working in entertainment.

  • Sona recounts her father's disappointment over her podcast antics, especially around language and subject matter:

    “I say jizz so many times on this podcast. I talk about dicks. I talk about vaginas...” (03:47, Sona Movsesian)

• Conan playfully roasts Sona’s family, likening her father to Geppetto, and reminisces about taunting her with fake mustaches in restaurants.

  • “Have you ever noticed that your brother has hinges where his joints should be? …Your father carved your brother.” (05:27, Conan O'Brien)

• Ken fits right in, indulging the jokes and ribbing. Both laugh at Conan and Sona’s exchange while prepping for a big tone shift toward American history.

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2. Introducing Ken Burns: Playful "Takedown" and Transition (11:13–14:44)

• Conan tees up Ken as “one of the most influential documentary filmmakers of all time,” and lightly jokes:

  “Well, Ken, you shouldn’t be, because this is the takedown of Ken Burns. You have coasted way too long…” (01:28, Conan O'Brien)

• Quick pivot from comedy: Ken is praised for humanizing history and refreshing America’s past for modern viewers.

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3. History as Echo, Not Repetition (14:44–21:25)

Key Insights:

• Ken on history rhyming, but not repeating:

  “History repeats itself. It never does. No event has happened twice... Human nature doesn’t change. So that human nature is going to superimpose itself over the seemingly random chaos of events and we’re going to see themes and recurring echoes and what Mark Twain called rhymes.” (14:55, Ken Burns)

• Modern Parallels: Ken describes uncanny parallels between events of the Revolution (propaganda, epidemics, polarization) and current times:

  “Sam Adams is a failure as a brewer and a tax collector, but he’s really good as a propagandist...” (17:41, Ken Burns)

• Conan reflects on the early days of the Republic and the hagiography of its leaders.

  “I like my... humans to be human beings.” (18:33, Conan O'Brien)

• Ken: Heroism is found in facing inner flaws, not being a marble statue.

  “If they’re just the gods, then they don’t do something. We just feel like mortals. We’re flawed... what they’re setting up are stories, good stories that remind us that we are all likewise divided within ourselves.” (19:09, Ken Burns)

[Notable Quote]

“I think the only way we can actually take a measure of inspiration from them... is if they're just human beings.” (19:09, Ken Burns)

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4. The Experiment of America: Hope, Perspective, and Reinvention (21:25–38:53)

Key Moments & Insights:

• Conan and Ken discuss George Washington, legitimacy, leadership, and flawed greatness

  • Conan humorously compares himself to Washington ("I'm very much like Washington. First of all, I'm tall." 20:42).
  • Ken highlights Washington's humility and ability to relinquish power:

    “He gave up his power twice. So these people... are gonna really be so proud of you when you just walk away.” (21:12, Ken Burns)

• On reading history for optimism:

  • Conan: “One of the things it does is it usually makes me a little more optimistic, which is a strange thing to say...” (32:00)
  • Ken recounts stories from the Great Depression to explain how perspective diffuses panic.

[Memorable Analysis]

“History is a great, great teacher. It’s like a friend that can calm you down and give you a little bit of perspective when things are very dark.” (33:23, Conan O'Brien)

• Ken on the myth of division:
  • “There is no them. There’s no them them, know them.” (37:58, Ken Burns)
  • Warns against the authoritarian playbook of scapegoating and how storytelling helps remind Americans of shared purpose.

[Notable Quote]

“Our obligation is to remember to tell people there’s no them, in some way, in story form.” (37:58, Ken Burns)

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5. Political Parties, “Us vs. Them,” and Shifting Contexts (38:53–49:32)

Key Insights:

• Ken traces the roots and drift of U.S. political parties.

  • Republican Party’s origin as an anti-slavery force
  • The Southern Switch post–Civil Rights Act
  • The fluid and dynamic nature of party alignment

• On misconceptions of political constancy:

  • “A lot of young people probably think, well, the Republican Party has always been tied to fundamental Christianity... That’s a more recent invention, 1980.” (38:10, Conan O’Brien)

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6. Reasons for Hope: American Luck and Progress (49:32–54:45)

Key Moments:

• Why now is the best time to be alive:
  • Conan: “I’ll always start with child mortality rates...” (41:58)
  • Ken builds a litany of U.S. progress—Declaration to Social Security, national parks, etc.—recited from memory, impressing Conan and Sona.

[Notable Quote]

“You want to feel bad about yourself? Have a conversation with Ken Burns.” (51:28, Conan O'Brien)

• Running joke: Ken’s “fluid” list of achievements, versus Conan’s inability to remember his own smoothie ingredients.

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7. The Power of Story: Making History Accessible (54:45–59:34)

Key Insights:

• Ashokan Farewell (iconic theme from The Civil War series):

  • Ken shares the backstory—how this piece, written by Jay Ungar, a Jewish kid from the Bronx, has become an American lament used at every kind of event imaginable. (57:55–59:11)

• Storytelling’s role: Even “truth is stranger than fiction”—Ken and Conan agree no novelist could invent stories as wild as those from history.

[Notable Quote]

“God is the greatest dramatist” — what Shelby Foote told Ken about simply telling what happened, because nothing made up will ever match real history. (30:22, Ken Burns)

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8. The Ever-Continuing Revolution: Civic Engagement and The Future (59:34–66:48)

Key Insights:

• The Founders’ sense of posterity:

  • “They are all speaking about like, this is not just for right now. We're doing this for the millions yet unborn.” (60:09, Ken Burns)

• Democratic renewal:

  • Ken highlights young people reinvesting in American civic life.

• Ken’s closing note:

  “The American war is over, but the American Revolution is still going on…We designed a system so we can figure out how to do that without the bloodshed.” (62:27)

• Conan expresses gratitude, notes how Ken’s work inspires hope:

  “I love this country and I always think we can do better, and I think we will. I just get that from your work and I get so inspired.” (64:16)

[Notable Quote]

“Our next job is repair and restoration, and we should be thinking about that rather than, oh, the sky is falling.” (64:30, Ken Burns)

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9. Final Playful Wrap-Up & Endorsements (66:48–end)

• Ken and Conan have a rapid-fire, semi-satirical riff on listing historical achievements (66:51), and Conan jokingly touts his knowledge that a peanut is a legume—not a nut. (67:45)

• Ken plugs his book, praising his longtime collaborator Jeff Ward. Conan geeks out over period artifacts. (67:56–68:23)

• Final sign-off is affectionate and full of mutual admiration.

  “Ken, thank you so much. This is amazing.” (68:40, Conan O’Brien)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Ken Burns: “History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes.” (14:55)
• Conan O'Brien: “I like my, you know, these humans to be human beings.” (18:33)
• Ken Burns: “There is no them. There’s no them them, know them.” (37:58)
• Ken Burns: “Our next job is repair and restoration, and we should be thinking about that rather than, oh, the sky is falling.” (64:30)
• Conan O'Brien: “I love this country and I always think we can do better, and I think we will. And I just get that from your work…” (64:16)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |--------------------------------|------------------| | Opening Banter & Family Humor | 01:19–11:13 | | Welcome & Takedown Jokes | 11:13–14:44 | | The Nature of History | 14:44–21:25 | | Washington, Leadership, Optimism| 21:25–38:53 | | Political Parties & “Us vs Them”| 38:53–49:32 | | American Progress & Hope | 49:32–54:45 | | Storytelling & Ashokan Farewell| 54:45–59:34 | | Civic Renewal & The Revolution Continues | 59:34–66:48 | | Final Wrap-up | 66:48–end |

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Tone & Style

• The entire episode is a seamless blend of Conan’s self-deprecating, absurdist humor and Burns’s mild-mannered but passionate pedagogical style—a balance of outright goofiness and deep, optimistic humanism.
• Warm, candid, and spirited, with banter that keeps even heavy topics approachable for all listeners.

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For listeners who haven’t heard this conversation:
This episode provides a playful, enlightening journey through American history—how it’s made, how it’s relevant, and how stories move us. Ken Burns and Conan O'Brien remind us that in the chaos and drama of yesterday and today, there’s always room for hope, laughter, and meaningful connection.

Transcript

[Conan O'Brien]

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[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

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[Sonam Vaidya]

Idiots.

[Conan O'Brien]

Fools.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Fools.

[Conan O'Brien]

Fools.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National Association. Pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply.

[Ken Burns]

Hi, my name is Ken Burns and I feel like hopeful about being Conan o' Brien's friend.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, Ken, you shouldn't be because this is the takedown of Ken Burns.

[Ken Burns]

Right?

[Conan O'Brien]

You have coasted way too long.

[Ken Burns]

50 years of coasting.

[Conan O'Brien]

Just. Oh, everybody loves their Ken Burns.

[Ken Burns]

That's why all the henchmen are here.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Get em boss. Get em boss. I have with me two people who don't read. I'm pretty sure they don't write.

[Sonam Vaidya]

We read magazines.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot about Us magazine. That does count as my 1990 is showing.

[Ken Burns]

Fall is here Hear the yell Back

[Conan O'Brien]

to school, Ring the bell Brand new

[Ken Burns]

shoes Walking blues Climb the fence Books

[Sonam Vaidya]

and pens I can tell that we

[Conan O'Brien]

are gonna be friends Yes, I can

[Sonam Vaidya]

tell that we are gonna be friends.

[Conan O'Brien]

Hey there. Welcome to Conan o' Brien needs a friend. Joined by Sonam Obsessian.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Hi.

[Conan O'Brien]

Matt Gourley is out. He is on paternity leave. And we and his lovely family. The best. God, I'm smooth. And then David Hopping joining us. How are you, David? I'm good.

[Ken Burns]

How are you?

[Conan O'Brien]

Sona, you said that you heard from your father?

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

Gil. Gil, was this yesterday or the other day?

[Sonam Vaidya]

This was last night.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, last night. He called you and he was unhappy. What happened?

[Sonam Vaidya]

He texted me. He was angry. He saw a clip online and he got angry about something I said. And you know my parents are you know, they're traditional people, and I am. I have. I got a mouth. And why are you laughing so hard?

[Conan O'Brien]

No, but you know what, Sona? You're a modern woman of the world. Thank you. You've been here, You've been there, you've been to Porter Square. You have been. You've seen it all. Some say you've done it all. And your father was born in a very small village.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes, he was.

[Conan O'Brien]

Where was this?

[Sonam Vaidya]

This was in. In Turkey, what used to be Armenia. Thank you very much. But, yeah, he was born in Turkey and he was in a small village. Immigrated here. They're traditional people. My parents and I say a lot of things on this podcast that are not traditional things. And so yesterday he texted me and he's like, I can't believe you talk like that on the. On the podcast. And he said, you. You. You're a mother. You have kids. Like he. He went on for. And I was like, oh, my God, my dad's actually upset.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

But I couldn't think of which clip he would have been upset about. I say jizz so many times on this podcast. You say, I talk about dicks.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I talk about vaginas. I talk about, like, heated rivalry all the time. I couldn't. I was like, feeling tack. I was like, did I. Is there one thing that was a

[Conan O'Brien]

great thing to Santa Claus? Thanks for the gift. And Santa's like, what? You know what I mean? And then he's got to think about the 55 billion gifts he's given out. Right. But you are. Yeah, you're the Santa Claus of filth. You're just constantly. It's butts, it's buns. You know, you. You love it. And so what did you say? Did you defend yourself to your dad?

[Sonam Vaidya]

No, I was just like, I really needed to figure out which thing upset him, so I said, which clip? And then he said, me. I appeared on my friend Rick's podcast.

[Conan O'Brien]

I know. Rick.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, Rick Glassman. And he. I was on his podcast. He. We released a clip not even from this one. So I'm like, clearly he never watches this podcast, cuz otherwise he'd be really pissed. Yeah, it was that podcast. And I, I.

[Conan O'Brien]

What were you talking about?

[Sonam Vaidya]

I said the. I said the word like twice. Okay. And my dad was.

[Conan O'Brien]

And he. Wait a minute. So he can't ever listen to this podcast.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Never.

[Conan O'Brien]

Because I saw some of you with Rick, and it was very tame compared to what you do every day here.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

Now let me paint a picture for the people listening Your father is very distinguished, very handsome.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

An older gentleman.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

He's got a big white mustache.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Okay.

[Conan O'Brien]

No. Does he not.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I knew what you were going to say.

[Conan O'Brien]

I know.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I'm just saying he's always had a mustache.

[Conan O'Brien]

Does he not look like. He looks a lot like the guy who carves Pinocchio. Geppetto. He does, does he not. Does he bear a resemblance to Geppetto? Just say. Yeah, a little. He's a Geppetto esque.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Fine.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Have you ever noticed that your brother has hinges where his joints should be? Have you ever noticed that? And does your remember when you were growing up, your brother would say, I wish I could be a real boy? Do you remember? Do you remember? Oh, you're.

[Sonam Vaidya]

You're actually asking me.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm saying your father carved your brother.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Okay.

[Conan O'Brien]

That he is, in fact, Geppetto. And I do hope that someday Danny becomes a real boy. You know what that is? Yes.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I'm fine with my. You saying these things because my dad does not watch this podcast, obviously, because how can he not be mad about the thing. Thousands of things I've said on my podcast.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, you are. You are just. I'm thinking of, like a sprinkler shooting water. You're a sprinkler that just shoots filth, but you get filth on every single part of the lawn. You know, the lawn is saturated with filth.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Why are you acting like you're an innocent guy? Which one of us has a voice for their penis? Not me. What's your penis's voice like?

[Conan O'Brien]

Hey, leave me out of this. Hey, everybody back home, cut it out. I was just in here in these briefs, minding my own business. My penis is always reading a tiny copy of the New Yorker. Oh, this is great. There's some good cartoons on this one.

[Sonam Vaidya]

This is your. You created this environment.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's got little glasses. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that your parents need to accept who you are.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I know.

[Conan O'Brien]

I think that's important.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

They need to see the real you. And I know you get into it with your mom a lot. You guys have your differences. Because I think that you were quite. I think you were a lot to handle when you were growing up, were you not?

[Sonam Vaidya]

I was.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, I was.

[Conan O'Brien]

And how are you and Nadya doing these days?

[Sonam Vaidya]

We're cool. I love her. And I love my dad.

[Conan O'Brien]

Of course you do.

[Sonam Vaidya]

And I do. There are times when I say things where I think, oh, man, their friends will listen to this one day. But then I Kind of forget what I say. And also, I mean, my dad, like, he was just like, tone it down a little. And I was like, I don't know how to do that.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, you can't.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I don't know how to do that.

[Conan O'Brien]

You can't do that.

[Sonam Vaidya]

If you say something about. If we have a conversation about dicks and stuff, like, how are we not supposed to talk?

[Conan O'Brien]

I will point out that you're usually the one that brings it up. You know, the topic is not dicks. And then you chime in a little bit and say, I've seen a dick or two. That's not what happens. You bring. I'm usually talking about Woodrow Wilson. And then you say, did he have a cock? And I'm like, well, I guess he did.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Oh, my God.

[Conan O'Brien]

But you know what I mean? That's usually how it goes. So this is on you, and you'll have to pay for this.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I like poo poo peepee humor.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, I do. That's me.

[Conan O'Brien]

I have to say, I can relate somewhat because my parents, very, very staunch, good old school Catholics.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

And they watched every episode of my show starting in 1993. And what a cavalcade of horrific sights, sounds and smells. Yeah. And. And they were always. They would always just my, you know, my mother would say, we do a show with the masturbating bear, and then, you know, a talking. Whatever.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Money shot Lincoln.

[Conan O'Brien]

Money shot Lincoln. And all this stuff. And my mother would say, well, I just thought you looked lovely last night. That tie you were wearing. And she would always go to the thing that she. Because. And so she never, not once said, oh, you know, you gotta stop that. Not once. She knew I was bringing in the Benjamins, and that meant they'd get a ham for Christmas. Anyway, hey, Gil, we love you. I love you. And your daughter's doing a great job. And I agree with you. She's. She's horrible. Okay, almost nice. Say I was horrible. This is the end.

[Sonam Vaidya]

My dad didn't say I was horrible.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, but I. I also give him a lot of credit. He carved.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

Your brother. He carved him.

[Sonam Vaidya]

You start off being nice to my dad, and then you started talking about how he's.

[Conan O'Brien]

How many times in my life have we been in a restaurant or anywhere and I have secretly taken my napkin, scrunched it up, and turned it into a giant mustache, put it under my nose and said, hey, Sona, Gill wants to talk to you.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yes. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I have a maybe two and a half foot long white mustache under my nose.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I don't think we've ever had a meal without you.

[Conan O'Brien]

Without me doing.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you end up not being

[Conan O'Brien]

able to do a. If there's. And if there's no If I didn't have a napkin for any reason, they hadn't put out the napkin yet, or there was a mistake, I would tear the tablecloth.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Off the table, smashing all the plates, put it under my nose and say, your father's here to speak to you.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's the beauty of our friendship.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I'll never be able to watch this.

[Conan O'Brien]

Or it's a podcast. You really should be listening. Here we go. Today's guest is one of the most influential documentary filmmakers of all time. His latest docu series, the American Revolution, is available to stream on PBS.org and the PBS app and.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Can't believe he's the guest.

[Conan O'Brien]

He is the guest after this intro. He is the guest and I'm curious to hear what he has to say about cocks and jizz and butts and buns and poo poo and pee pee. This wonderful, wonderful historian who has brought the fabric of what is America into our lives, refreshed it, and is just the very best that America has to offer.

[Ken Burns]

Poo poo.

[Conan O'Brien]

Peepee. Ken Burns, Welcome. Ken, I am thrilled that you're here. We've spoken a couple of times. But your series on the American Revolution was an absolute delight. Loved it. And fascinating for me because I grew up in Massachusetts, where it happened right outside Boston in Brookline, Mass. And there's a couple of times when you're explaining the siege of Boston where you cut to a map and in the slight low left corner, it says Brookline and shows a few hills. And I stand up like a nerd and cheer and I'm like, Brooklyn. And then try to act like I can take credit, though my people were still firmly in Ireland at the time, hitting each other with sticks. So there's no way I can claim any credit for.

[Ken Burns]

If you look in the bigger maps as they pull out in New Hampshire, there's always Walpole, this tiny little village. The only reason why I justified it, I've lived there for 47 years, is Walpole Gazette, was this very well respected, well read up and down the colony sort of rag sheet that had opinions and thoughts and was part of it. So I justified the little hometown shout out too well.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I saw what you were doing and I thought it was pathetic. I told you this would be the takedown.

[Ken Burns]

This is the takedown Right.

[Conan O'Brien]

You know, I'm such an easy point to make. Everything that everyone's dealing with in your series are things that we are dealing with now. And at the time. I don't know. When has this come out?

[Ken Burns]

It's been out.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, I know yours is out, but I'm talking about this. Yeah. This podcast.

[Ken Burns]

I was told this was live.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah. This is going to.

[Ken Burns]

I did Joe Rogan. It was live.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, it wasn't. No, Joe Rogan is a different situation. No, Joe Rogan's different. He's brave. He puts it out live. We sit with. These are sent to a laboratory where they're scrubbed of any opinions or, you know, possible woke diatribes. So that's just not gonna happen here. But, you know, at the time. And I'm sure there'll be another crisis when this is airing, but at the time that this drops, this episode will be about a month from now. Right. This episode's probably gonna be two to three months from now. Two to three months? April. Yeah. Why are we even here?

[Ken Burns]

This is insane.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, two to three months from now. I mean, I don't know where we'll be. We have a very packed release schedule, but we wanted to make sure this. Okay, well, I would like to. I mean, I was really excited about this one. I hate the other guests we're talking to. I mean, I loathe them.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Jesus.

[Conan O'Brien]

The one that whatever's one is out now or the one last week or the one two weeks from now. These people are my enemies.

[Ken Burns]

Good friends of yours.

[Conan O'Brien]

Awful, dreadful people. I was excited about this, and now you tell me that it's coming out a year from April. The release schedule is always movable. If we want to.

[Ken Burns]

The 256 is really important, too.

[Conan O'Brien]

I said, look, look, look.

[Ken Burns]

We're gonna be celebrating. 250 if we survive until 2039, which is when the US government starts. So don't get me started, because there's 31, which is Yorktown. There's 33, which is the British leave.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, we are taping this as we approach the 250th anniversary of our nation with hope. And one of the things I've always loved about history is that it constantly reminds me we've been here before.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah. So this is the thing we like to say. History repeats itself. It never does. No event has happened twice. Ecclesiastes, which is the Old Testament, said, what has been will be again. What has been done will be done again. There's nothing new under the sum which Means human nature doesn't change. So that human nature is going to superimpose itself over the seemingly random chaos of events and we're going to see themes and recurring echoes and what Mark Twain called rhymes. I have never worked on a film, whether it's about the Brooklyn Bridge or jazz music or whatever that isn't rhyming constantly in the present. And I used to have a stump speech going off for whatever film it was. I'll give you one. This is 2011. I said, what if I told you that I've been working for years about a film about a single issue political campaign that metastasized with horrible unintended consequences? That it was about the demonization of recent immigrant groups to the United States, that it was about a presidential election cycle with unbelievable violence and kind of rancor, rancor and sort of muck raking and stuff. And that it also represented a whole group of people who felt they had lost control of their country and wanted to take it back. You'd say, wow, you're talking about the Tea Party or this and that. I said, these are only four themes of my film on Prohibition. And they go, but what about the flappers and the gangsters? I said, they're. But the more interesting thing is this underlying resonance. The thing you have to do as a filmmaker though, in order for the thing to speak more directly is to be disciplined like Odysseus, tied to lash to the mast where you can see hear those echoes. But you don't go, oh, isn't this so much like today? I mean, the revolution. Revolution has a failed invasion of Canada. It has a standing army that precipitates this war in Boston. It has a big continent wide epidemic, or epidemics, plural, that kills more people than the revolution and also engenders a huge debate on the part of Washington about inoculating the army. And finally he decides which many historians think is the best military decision he made. So plus sachange, as the French who came to our aid and without whose

[Conan O'Brien]

help we don't have a country again watching it. And as you said, smallpox, there's a terrible scourge that looks like it's going to cost us the war, what to do about that? And they're making decisions about inoculation that we're struggling with today, which is a little mind blowing to me as the son of a scientist and physician. I have a hard time with that. But so many people will say to me, oh, but now we have the Internet. And I think, yeah, that's true, but they had broadsides back then. They had their version of the Internet. They had people saying irresponsible, inflammatory things all the time. And everybody's reading it.

[Ken Burns]

Sam Adams is a failure as a brewer and a tax collector, but he's really good as a propagandist who says, my job is to keep my fellow citizens alive to their grievances.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Ken Burns]

Sound familiar? They're people today within whose interest it is to keep up the divisions between people rather than show the fact that these divisions, which accounts for your and my 51, 52% are a mile wide but a kind of an inch thick. And that what you want, the ability to transcend the dialectic of yes and no, 1 and 0, red state, blue state, is to tell a good story because it has a kind of benign Trojan horse effect. It kind of says, oh, yeah, this is who we were, this is who we are. It's very, very similar. Same degree of virtue and venality, same degree of generosity and greed. Same degree of make up your own alliteration.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And I think, you know, when I grew up, there used to be this kind of hagiography about the American Revolution. And we would get these textbooks, you know, George Washington chopped down the cherry tree and I cannot tell a lie. And, you know, these people were represented as represented to us as these marble men who were infallible. And then what I've loved about my lifelong obsession with history is, you see, George Washington is a very impressive man in a lot of ways. He's also a slaveholder. We always have to accept that. Both sides of the story, we have to accept that. And I like my, you know, these humans to be human beings.

[Ken Burns]

I think that's the only way we can actually take a measure of inspiration from them. If they're just the gods, then they don't do something. We just feel like mortals. We're flawed. We know that they're not. They're perfect. They never tell a lie. But I think we go back to heroism. The Greeks were trying to talk about it as something that was a war within people between warring factions, that Achilles had his heel and his hubris to go along with his great strengths. And that what they're setting up are stories, good stories that remind us that we are all likewise divided within ourselves. And we have chances to sort of tilt towards that virtue or tilt towards that venality. And so I think with the Revolution, it's understandable why we made it bloodless and gallant. You know, we got some big ideas in Philadelphia. We don't want them to be diminished, which we think if we admit this is a bloody civil war, a bloody revolution and a bloody world war. The fourth or fifth over the prize of North America. And that George Washington, the man without whom we don't have a country. And there's very few times in world history where you can say it's literally one person holds them together. Deeply flawed, as you point out. Rash rides out on the battlefield risking his life, which means the entire cause. Makes a couple of really bad tactical decisions.

[Conan O'Brien]

Really screws up in New York.

[Ken Burns]

Screws up in New York and at Brandywine and a couple of other places where the just the luck doesn't fall. But he's able to inspire people to fight in the dead of night. Pick subordinate talent without any worry about whether they're better generals than him. Just happy to have.

[Conan O'Brien]

Can I just say something? This is what I do.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Now you're going to say. Talk about. You're going to say, oh, this is insane. But I'm very like Washington. First of all, I'm tall. Very tall.

[Ken Burns]

Very tall.

[Conan O'Brien]

He was maybe six.

[Ken Burns]

You command a room.

[Conan O'Brien]

Six, Two. I've made sure everyone here is inoculated against smallpox.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Right.

[Conan O'Brien]

I pick. Looking around for the people I've picked who I think are good. Okay, well, this isn't a good example, this room. No. But I think I'm very much like Washington.

[Ken Burns]

His biggest and most important thing, besides convincing people that they were not Georgians or New Hampshireites, but Americans and deferring to Congress, is that he gave up his power twice. So these people. We're gonna really be so proud of you when you just walk away.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

Ye.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, I don't like the way this has gone. Support for today's episode comes from Square. The system powering, like, half the places you go. Hello?

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

If you've ever tapped to pay and thought, whoa, that was fast, it was probably square. Whether you're selling lattes, cutting hair, detailing cars, or running a design studio, Square helps you run your business without running yourself into the ground. Square is the platform behind the scenes of so many businesses you already love. It gets them connected to a system to make payments, manage inventory, run payroll, send invoices, track it all in one place. This isn't just a point of sale. Square includes hardware that works in person and on the go. I mean, it's incredible. I see square all the time when I go out there.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Me, too.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I'm out there a lot.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, you are out there. You're out there on the streets.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. With the streets, with the people. And I am doing business, I'm bartering, I'm exchanging. And all the time they use square. And you know what, it's fast and it's easy. And I wish it existed in an earlier time. Yeah, would have really helped us. If you're starting a business or running one that deserves better tools, Square helps you sell, manage and grow without slowing down. Right now you can get up to $200 off square [e-mail]. go Conan. That's S Q U-A-R-E.com G O Conan. Run your business smarter with square. Get started. Today, the ass kicking comedy event of the year has arrived. Mike and Nick. And Nick G is streaming only on Hulu. It stars Vince Vaughn, James Marsden and Asa Gonzalez. Okay, here's the twist. There are two Vince Vaughns. I've always said we need two Vince Vaughns.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

One is not enough. His character time travels back to fix a night that went horribly wrong. Who wouldn't want the chance to time travel back and change a bad night? And paired with James Marsden, what more could you ask for? Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice. Now streaming only on Hulu. Rated R. You know, there are days that the travel perks that you get with T Mobile really come in handy. But then there are days that you just want to embrace couch life. And you love you some couch life.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Loves me some couch life.

[Conan O'Brien]

And without ever leaving the house, T mobile still has you covered. Find plans, including Netflix plus deals on DoorDash. The more benefits you use, the more value you get. I mean, why go anywhere when you can get your favorite takeout, binge a show and brag to all your friends. You won't believe what I'm not doing tonight. That's a brag. When you get to hang out on your couch and live life at its most supreme.

[Sonam Vaidya]

It's so comfortable.

[Conan O'Brien]

Ift mobile. It's great. And I always like to watch those, like survival shows. And I like to get meat. So like a steak and then like a survival show. Yeah. And then the monster's eating the person. You like the meat pretend of the monster. Exactly. You're a sick guy. Check it out@t mobile.com magentastatus wow. Receive Netflix standard with ads while you maintain a qualifying line and good standing. See dashpass details in the TeaLife app. I do want to say one thing about Washington that's long interested me. He was kind of wide in the hips, wasn't he kind of a pear shaped guy? I'm sorry, but he was, and I hate to body shame our first president

[Ken Burns]

and someone who know there are no photographs. And you got to trust Gilbert Stewart or Copley or others.

[Conan O'Brien]

Gore Vidal was the one who really pointed it out in one of his books.

[Ken Burns]

Gore Vidal has some access to grind some founders to take.

[Conan O'Brien]

He really. He portrays Washington as humorless and goes out of his way to talk about his wide hips and his big butt. No, I'm sorry. Those are just things I needed to get out there. Now, Ken, you're probably regretting being here. You think I'm.

[Ken Burns]

You got enough friends,

[Conan O'Brien]

you're saying, well, how did this turn this quickly? But how did you get me into this? You know, more publicists have been fired after a Brian Needs a Friend taping. It's always the first thing. Why? Whose idea? You said we do have something. We have a few things in common. One thing is that I read. I'm addicted to reading history. And my wife loves fiction and she's always trying to get me to read fiction as if eating my vegetables, you know, Eat your vegetables. And I just have this burning desire to know what happened. And if she's reading this wonderful, powerful novel, I'm like, yeah, but what happened? That's just made up. And so she has wonderful photos of me when we've gone on vacations over our long marriage, on different beaches and in different beautiful settings, reading the most turgid, dark books about, you know, the Gulag. I'm sitting there with like a rum punch next to me.

[Ken Burns]

But she could be reading, you know, Scholzhel, Nietzsche or.

[Conan O'Brien]

She's very well read and she's always reading, you know, she's reading great stuff. And she has convinced me she's. She's.

[Ken Burns]

No, no, no. There's as much drama in what was and what is as anything the human imagination makes up. But it's not a choice because you're going to lose Shakespeare if you're not gonna let people make stuff up.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right.

[Ken Burns]

You're gonna lose a lot of wonderful insight that comes from whatever the license is that people take to sort of focus on our interior lives and why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing and making of it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. I have to say, even one of my probably my favorite book is a historical novel, the Killer Angels, which is.

[Ken Burns]

That's what got me into do the Civil War. I finished reading that.

[Conan O'Brien]

Is that true?

[Ken Burns]

Let me tell you this. David McCullough gave it to me. I finished reading it on Christmas Day, 1984. I was visiting my dad In Michigan. And I said, I know what I'm gonna do for my next film. And he said, what's that, son? And I said, the Civil War. And he goes, what part? And I said all of it. And he just shook his head and walked out of the room, you know. And it was. It was because the Civil War had been looming over all the subjects of the film I'd made in really bizarre ways. On the. On the Brooklyn Bridge, on the shakers, on the Statue of Liberty, on the Congress, on Thomas Art Benton, on all the stuff, Huey Long, all of the stuff I had done or were doing and that I just couldn't figure out that this seemed to be, as Shelby Foote once said, it's American history. Is this clear river that flows into a bloody lake that flows out clear again. Not true. But the idea that everything has to pass through the Civil War was important to it. So, yeah, I mean, I. Killer Angels. Have you read the Raven by Marcus James?

[Conan O'Brien]

I have not.

[Ken Burns]

Very antiquated book. 1920s. He won the Pulitzer Prize, I think, for this or another one. Did a biography first on Andrew Jackson, but then he did one that the Raven is on Sam Houston. And there is so much that happens to Sam Houston before he's even heard of the word Texas. I mean, he is this close to the presidency. He's sort of holding the governorship while Andrew Jackson is president. He's going to be the next president for sure. He marries this young girl, his wife, and at some moment she leaves him. We do not know to this day why. She did something sexual. An old lover, whatever it was. He resigned the governorship. He went to what is now Memphis, swam across the Mississippi and became big drunk, a kind of dangerous loose cannon Indian agent across the Mississippi. And he still hasn't heard. He's had fought duels in Congress. I mean, it's just about. Somebody gave me $180 million and said you had to do a feature film. I do. The Life of Sam Houston based on this.

[Conan O'Brien]

On the Raven.

[Ken Burns]

On the Raven.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, you know, there's so many things that really happened in our history and just in history in general that if you wrote it as a screenplay, someone would say this is too much. You know what I mean? You lost me. You know, Avatar is more believable than this. You know what I mean? You got a little crazy here when he swims across a river and you think, no, no, this is all, all true. And I think that's what's always attracted me so much to it. My dad was really into history. And I got into it and I realized, oh, it's just stories. And, you know, Sona's. Sona's always giving me a hard time. You always make fun of me for reading so much history.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Well, you read a lot of history, but, like, you don't read, like, 50 Shades of Gray, for instance. I've recommended books to you, and you completely ignore me.

[Conan O'Brien]

Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? Haven't. Okay, this is your next. This is your next documentary, Cat.

[Ken Burns]

I did the Blue and the Gray, but I.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, it's like the Blue and

[Sonam Vaidya]

the Gray, but a little different.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's bluer.

[Ken Burns]

It's bluer.

[Conan O'Brien]

Imagine the Civil War with spanking. Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

So Shelby Foote said. Shelby Foote said to me once, I was struggling over how to tell something, and he goes, how to tell, like, a very complicated thing between Chancellorsville, Vicksburg, and Gettysburg.

[Conan O'Brien]

And.

[Ken Burns]

And he just said, God is the greatest dramatist, meaning, stop doing what everybody else does, which is do either all of Vicksburg before Gettysburg or do all of Gettysburg after Vicksburg. You divide it up and say when it happened, you know, and just stop

[Conan O'Brien]

and go, tell what happened.

[Ken Burns]

Tell what happened. And then he said, just think about it. Lee surrenders to Grant, and a few days later, Lincoln, who's been working 18 hours a day, has enough time to go to the theater. I mean, I've had a few projects which shall remain nameless with various places in this town where people are. Wanted to adapt something we've done. And the stuff that's good is the stuff that's true, and the stuff that's made up is the stuff that just doesn't work. It doesn't work. You could say, he would never say that, or he would never do that, or why did you need to add that? Because there is already a life that has that kind of. If you brought it to a producer, they go, that can't possibly have happened. Like, the whole story of the building of the Brooklyn Bridge, which was my first film that PBS showed, was exactly that. You could not make it up.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, I like anything that makes you stop. Cause I spent so much of my life in New York City living there, and every time I pass the Brooklyn Bridge, I think about what went into making that. And it used to be just this thing. It was the Brooklyn Bridge, and we can all do that. But when you realize that this is before people know what happens when you submerge humans, you know, at great depths,

[Ken Burns]

you get Caissons disease.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. And you put them in these caissons, and you submerge them down, but they don't know. And people are dying. These horrible deaths. All the thought that went into it and the lives that went into it, and then what it meant when it was completed. And it's beautiful. And so I just appreciate, when I read history, one of the things it does is it usually makes me a little more optimistic, which is a strange thing to say, because most of the history I'm reading is very many dark things happen. But I meet a lot of young people who have this attitude that these are end days and the world is on fire and it's all over for us.

[Ken Burns]

I had a friend in the financial industry in 2008, in the fall, said, this is a depression. And I said, you know, in our depression, in many cities in America, the animals in the zoo were shot and the meat distributed to the poor. When that happens, I'll agree we're in a thing. To me, the optimism is a natural recourse because you've seen. I mean, there's something unprecedented about the level of the perfidy and where it's taking place at this moment. But I've seen it in the story of Huey Long. I've seen it in other places. And so you just realize you want to be on guard. That other 49% is talking really loudly, but you can't. History is a great, great teacher. Great, great teacher.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And it's also. It's like a friend that can calm you down and give you a little bit of perspective when things are very dark. I've had so many people say to me, it's never been worse in this country than it is now.

[Ken Burns]

We're more divided in the revolution.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And I'll say, okay, have you heard of the Civil War, Vietnam, and do you know what was going on in the Civil War and what's going on in Vietnam? But we have a lot of work to do, and we have to be on guard and we have to speak up. But there's so much to be hopeful about.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah, agree.

[Conan O'Brien]

And that needs to get out there. And I think one of the things that I've liked so much about your work is that it's taking. Whether it's jazz or baseball, you're taking these things that are a really important part of America and who we are. And you're telling us about this wonderful gift, but at the same time, you're telling us all the darkness that's involved. You're just telling the truth. You're not trying to push It. One way or the other. Yeah. Calling balls and strikes. And I always walk away feeling this sense of nourishment that I've been taken care of.

[Ken Burns]

We live in a world. And that waitress. And so many people are. It's a highlight reel. That's all it is. So Babe Ruth, to take somebody ancient in baseball, only hits home runs. Highlight reel. Babe Ruth struck out almost three times as many times as he hit a home run. He also comes up once every nine times at bat. That. Which means that sometimes everything falls to a middle infield or a second baseman. The recent seventh game of the World Series was exactly that case where the big superstars didn't do the thing that the second baseman did. And that was the difference. And I think that's a really good simplistic analogy to history. You've got to call balls and strikes and you have to be able to understand. I mean, you see the ball players who all. They hit the home run and they cross home plate and they thank God for delivering that. They never do that when they hit into a game ending double play. Right, right. So if there is that oversight.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no, it's. It's. I always think if you're gonna thank God, you also have to blame him.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I want to see people doing that. Striking out and going, I defy you, God.

[Ken Burns]

You know, the only script I've ever seen is Pedro Martinez is. Is pulled off the mound when the Red Sox are beginning to lose something. And he looks up as he's being pulled off. I've never seen. I talked to him about it. Never seen anybody do it. But you go back to the revolution. Most of the founders become, particularly Jefferson Dias, some sort of supreme being, Supreme Architect, Divine Providence, the Supreme architect of the universe, whatever they call it, who is disinterested in the affairs of us and makes no distinction between faiths. What an unbelievably great way to understand it. So it's my obligation to sort of be better, pursue happiness was not objects in a marketplace of things, but lifelong learning in a marketplace of ideas. To be more virtuous, to earn the right of citizenship, but then also present myself as moving closer or through my actions to whatever that higher being is. It's a really great way to conduct yourself. And they also understood the First Amendment, which we say free speech. And because of Minneapolis right to protest and assembly. The number one thing is we shall make no establishment of a religion. Every other country on earth had been born with a set official religion. Here's the stamp and we didn't have it. And it has been one of the blessings for us. And we speak about the political benefits and their legion. This is the enlightenment applied to a physical thing, a government, but it's also the religious thing in which you're just trying to pull the fuel rods out of. What everybody does is they make a they, a them. It's the playbook of the authoritarian. This is the bad, the radical, this

[Conan O'Brien]

or the they are the cause of all our problems.

[Ken Burns]

Enemy within. You know, for Hitler it was the Jews and the Jehovah's Witness and homosexuals and Marxists and Bolsheviks and whatever it might be. Everybody looks to say it's them. And I've made films about the us but I've also made films about us. There's an intimacy there as well as a majesty and complexity and even controversy to the US but the thing I've known after doing this for 50 plus years is there is no them. There's no them them, know them. And our obligation is to try to remember to tell people there's no them in some way in story form. And that's what you were talking.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're just leading us, it's all us

[Ken Burns]

with just, you know, just how much a story can have. This sense of, boy, this is just like it was before. And just like it was before is very much like what's happening now.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, it's also, if you don't read history or you think you're not interested, there's this belief that the way things are now is the way they've always been, also in an inaccurate way. So there's this notion, I think a lot of young people probably think, well, the Republican Party has always been tied to fundamental Christianity. And I think, no, no, they would have been, I mean, for a long time. That is exactly the Republican Party and Republican start from the beginning of the party's establishment would have been kind of horrified by that idea that we were tied to that. Do you know what I mean? That's a more of a recent invention, 1980.

[Ken Burns]

I've got a map of the political parties and just twist. I mean by there was the last Cabot Lodge to run against a Kennedy or anybody was 62 when Ted Kennedy took the seat vacated by Senate seat. Yeah, the Senate seat in Massachusetts. And he lost. And he loved Ted Kennedy. He said, yeah, we voted for the same things. I don't think I disagreed with him on anything. I voted for civil rights. And you think, you know, wait a second. The Republican Party was founded in 1854. In a schoolhouse in Rippon, Wisconsin, to end slavery. The Whig party had died. They were looking out of the ashes to start something. They put up a candidate, John C. Fremont, the Pathfinder. In 56, he loses. And then this guy, this bizarre, tall, thin lawyer, prone to bouts of debilitating depression, wins the election in 1860 as a Republican, 40% of the vote. As the beginning of the Republican party as a national force, the most successful party, unfortunately, also because it often tacks to different places and basically is really good at convincing people to vote against their own interests. I mean, that's been the last 50 years of the Republican party. But I mean, up until when Johnson took Kennedy's civil rights, which Kennedy couldn't have passed, took it and got it through, and then the Voting Rights act, he knew he was losing the south, but he was a southerner Democrat. You woke up on January, you woke up on election day and you had every One of the 11 states of the former Confederacy in the Democratic Party you could count on those electoral votes. And now, now you wake up on election day and the Republicans count on it. Ronald Reagan began his traditional post Labor Day campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi. That's in Choctaw County. He did not go there to honor Goodwin, Cheney and Shermer, three civil rights people who were murdered there. He went and began within the first few paragraphs in to talk about states rights, which was virtue signaling. I don't know, virtue is the right word, but signaling to his audience. And then one by one, you watch. You've already seen it happen. The former states of the Confederacy have been solidly anti Republican because they were trying to promote racial equality. Switch over. And it's breathtaking to watch just the changes that the. Just the two parties, let alone the various three parties that kind of like fish, live parasitically off the various parties. It's a wonderful, dynamic, fluid thing. Harry Truman said the only thing that's really new is the history dynamic. Know that's really great, I mean, confounding thing because we live in this narcissistic present. So therefore we're all Chicken Littles. The sky is falling. It's worse than it ever could be. And you don't have the agency to pull yourself out of the nosedive that you're. You're put yourself into.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, this. And this is. There's never been a. What I. One of the sentiments I agree with is there's never been a better time to be alive than right now. And just actually the only time to

[Ken Burns]

be alive right now.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I'll have people say, well, come on, Conan, things are really bad. Why do you think it's. Give me one reason why this is the best time to be alive. And I'll always start with child mortality rates.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Like, do you realize that for almost all of human history, if you had children, there was a very good chance that most of them would die? That was just the way it was. That's why there are few. There's no industry around making toys for kids or portraits of kids for a long time because they don't last that long. Very few of them make it.

[Ken Burns]

Big market for small caskets.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. It's just. No, it's really. But it's awful. Sorry to bring this up. This is really dark.

[Ken Burns]

You go into graveyards in New England and you've got 4, 3, 18 months, 6, 8, 12. And then, and then 96 and 100.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, no. If you got past your, if you got past into your teens, you probably lived to be 98 and wrote the Declaration of Independence. But what's. No, it was just. I would like people to be a little more conscious of all the ways in which we're very blessed. And I also, when I watched the American Revolution series, one of the things that, that impresses me is just this stunning good luck. I mean, the idea that so many things broke our way during the American Revolution does make you believe in Providence. And it reminds me of this quote that I'm gonna butcher right now. I think it was Otto Bismarck said, there is a divine providence that protects drunkards, children and the United States of America. And it's just like this wonderful quote where I don't know what is going on with America, but they always seem to get away with stuff.

[Ken Burns]

Well, this has happened in the. Of the revolution when the improbable successes along with mostly failures happened. They all saw it as a sign of Providence that they would be like the walls of Jericho. You would just blow the trumpet and they'd fall down. Think about it. The odds on Lexington Green in that morning of April 19th, 1775 are 0 of success and 6 and a half really long bloody. This is what we don't admit to. Bloody years later. Civil war, revolution and global war. War is 100% and the phenomenal good luck in the midst of some really bad luck and bad decisions and stuff. I mean, a lot of it has to do with the size of the continent. It has to do with the weather. It has to do with the distance 3,000 miles from the home office. So a Letter coming takes longer than a letter going back because of the Gulf Stream. And so you just. Franklin, this writer, comes up to his place in Paris and he's trying to get the French in, and he needs some little victory just to convince him. And then the writer goes and he walks out and he says, philadelphia fell. And he goes, yeah, which it had through Washington's neglect at Brandywine. And he turns away and he goes, but wait, there's better news that a couple months after that, the Battle of Saratoga took place. Washington had nothing to do with it other than sending two of his best generals, Daniel Morgan and a guy named Benedict Arnold, who was the hero of Saratoga. And it's not only a little thing, it's a gigantic. The surrender of entire British Army. And Franklin goes, whoa. He goes right to the comprehensive.

[Conan O'Brien]

Why didn't you read me that one first?

[Ken Burns]

Yes, he asked him first. I mean, he was pessimistic in disposition towards the news he was about to get. And then they go to Louis XVI, and within a couple months, they've got two alliances, one of which is essentially $30 billion worth of aid. An army, a navy, guns, whatever you need that are going to be the key to the American economy.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, the French completely saved our base, Bacon. Something we probably occasionally like to forget. And also the French, because they gave us so much money and so much help during the Revolutionary War, go bankrupt, leading to their revolution.

[Ken Burns]

They had other problems, too, when the Declaration came. Yeah, there. I mean, the British constitutional monarchy was pretty good place form of government to live under. And that's why you're a Loyalist in the colonies. And you're excused. We didn't make Loyalists bad people, we just made them. This is your prosperity, education, your good health, your property that you own, whatever it might be has come from that. The French are more oppressive. And then when Franklin's there, they adore him and he's speaking the same language.

[Conan O'Brien]

He's a rock star in France.

[Ken Burns]

Benjamin Franklin, he's the most famous American on Earth because of his scientific stuff. But he's charming and he's witty, and he also shares sympathy with Montesquieu and the others of the French Enlightenment, not just the Scottish Enlightenment. And then when the Declaration happens, he prints it up and asks all the newspapers to print it. So they print it so ordinary people are reading.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

And the power of this, the importance of the revolution, just in the ideas cannot be denied. This thing promotes revolutions. Our Declaration promotes revolutions for more than two centuries. When Ho Chi Minh, on September 2, 1945, that's the date that the Japanese are surrendering unconditionally on the USS Missouri and Tokyo Bay. He declares Vietnamese independence. And he is quoting Thomas Jefferson from that second sentence. And standing next to him are OSS officers, officers who have saved his life earlier in the year and are supporting him. And within a month, they're going to be told by the State Department, oh, he's a commie. You can't do that. He, you know, and you shift so much. We had stayed with him and then followed the Geneva Convention and allowed the election of him in 56, there'd be 6 million more human beings haunting the earth.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, well, there. It's amazing just how many times things just keep flipping and flipping and flipping. So, you know, Stalin, our best friend and our buddy up until about 1946 or 1945. 46. And then it switches. And so I have a propaganda poster of Uncle Sam and I think it's Chiang Kai Shek and Churchill and Stalin as all these good buddies who are tormenting a little Hitler. And it's like Uncle Sam's arm is draped around our good buddy Stalin. And then they get the word after the war. We're switching that now.

[Ken Burns]

Yes, right.

[Conan O'Brien]

He's now the villain of the story. We got it. Okay. He's the bad guy. And this happens so many times in history. It's kind of fascinating.

[Ken Burns]

So the biggest, I mean, the.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'll be later seen as a good guy. You'll see some.

[Ken Burns]

The 20th century is the bloodiest and it has. The biggest killers are ma, followed by Stalin and a distant third is Hitler. It's really unbelievable. And they were our ally. The Second World War is won by American manufacturing, followed by Soviet sacrifice, followed by Western. Western allies sacrifice. It's really. It's a triumph. In 1945, more than 50% of all things manufactured in the world were manufactured in the United States. And I mean, to understand exactly what happened. And Stalin had the Russian fear, as Putin does, of needing all the buffer states. And so he was going to hang onto it. And there was no army that was the size of his. There was no energy to decide as. As Churchill's fulminating, go take it back. To go take it back. Nobody was going to do it. And so we ended up with a post war paralysis, but we ended up with the Marshall Plan, one of the greatest things Americans have ever done. We do things for other people because that's a good thing to do, not because we're not serving ourselves.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, historically we have done a lot because it was the right thing to do.

[Ken Burns]

And then we had a stasis. Now you can spend your entire life, and many people do, listing the crimes of the United States. But as you were suggesting earlier, if you start with the Declaration and the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights and land grant colleges and the Homestead act and national parks and child labor and GI Bill and Social Security and interstate highway and man on the Moon and Affordable Care, I mean, you're just like the list of positive things that we've done. And yet we've been told that the enemy is our government. And it is in the interests of people, people to make that happen, to remind people that we're divided and there's them and there is no them.

[Conan O'Brien]

I have to just ask you, and this seems very superficial, but you just listed about 35 things with great eloquence and fluidity. I'm guessing we're sort of the same age. I can't do that anymore. I can start to list things and then I go, well, you know what I mean? How do you do that?

[Ken Burns]

It's really bad because I'm 10 years older than you, so.

[Conan O'Brien]

Are you really 72?

[Ken Burns]

Are you 62?

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm 42. 40, yeah. I saw a doctor this morning who. No, I'm 60. I'm 62. That was. Did you see him see her do that?

[Sonam Vaidya]

I'm very impressed. You could never.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can't. If I was listing the ingredients in my smoothie, I couldn't do that.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I know.

[Ken Burns]

I did them in kind of chronological order, too.

[Conan O'Brien]

I saw that. I'm looking at you do that, and I know I'm supposed to be like, no, these are really good points, but I'm steady. I was just stunned. He just said so much stuff without looking at notes. I'm very shallow, Ken. I'm thinking of the acts that were passed. The twc, the mio, the wwn, the Labrador habita, the ciba dubida, the ruba dabba. The same shit. Yeah.

[Sonam Vaidya]

See, I was so impressed. And then the whole time, you're just like, my brain no working.

[Conan O'Brien]

My brain's so good. Do you want to feel bad about yourself? Have a conversation with Ken Burns. Now, I picture cameras sweeping past black and white photos of me looking sad. And you hear, ashokin, farewell.

[Ken Burns]

Well, what we often do is start in the photograph, off in the dark, a vague thing, and then panned to the extra close up of the eyes. And you begin to feel the tragedy of it.

[Conan O'Brien]

As Conan's mind slipped away, he knew, mama, that he had to retreat to the idiocy of a podcast. Let's make that documentary.

[Ken Burns]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

You'll have three viewers. You will be stripped of every award you've ever won.

[Ken Burns]

Talk about the idiocy of podcasts for a second. Yeah, like this year, promoting. I mean, I always do that. There's no money in PBS to go out and promote stuff, you know, to speak of. So you can't put billboards on Melrose and Beverly saying or the buses or the subways or whatever across the country. So you go out and we did 40 cities, 80 screenings, 250 interviews. Radio, satellite tours, TV and radio, and also this time more podcasts. I think there are 352 million podcasts in the United States and I now have done half of them today. Today is the half the podcast.

[Conan O'Brien]

So what you're saying is we're the last stop.

[Ken Burns]

No, no, no. I'm sure they're gon.

[Conan O'Brien]

Conan realized. Ma, ma, ma. That he was the last stop.

[Ken Burns]

I'll do the music if you want.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's hard for me to talk and do the music. Not that I can't. Conan knew that there was. He was the lowest of the low. My dearest Sarah Conan writing home. My dearest Liza. Ken Burns today said he had done every podcast at. Now he was doing it. Well, I was. This is all. This is making me so happy right now.

[Ken Burns]

I thought you were gonna fill in.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, sorry. My dearest Liza.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yeah, this brain doesn't work anymore.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. So just making me so happy that you're singing that tune.

[Ken Burns]

I've been singing that soon and dining out on that tune for 36 years.

[Conan O'Brien]

I often. I downloaded it onto my. I have this sounds self serving but I do like to work out. Check this thing out. This body. But that's not the point. The point is I like to listen to a hard fast like rock and roll music for your. When your heart rate's up. Cause that really gets me going. And then I kind of run on the treadmill and lift the we and do everything I have to do. But I dropped in there a long time ago. Into my workout feed a shokin farewell and it will come on. And I'm just. I won't take it out, but when it comes on, I stop working out.

[Ken Burns]

Maybe it's just to restore your heart rate.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, exactly. I just stop whatever I'm doing.

[Ken Burns]

Cry in the middle of your workout. They say is really good.

[Conan O'Brien]

And to think about everything this country has been through.

[Ken Burns]

Yes.

[Conan O'Brien]

On ebay, every find has a story. Like if you're looking For a vintage band tee. The one you wore everywhere until you lost it or your brother Neil burned it. Now you're on ebay. And there it is. The things you love have a way of finding their way back to you. Especially on eBay.

[Sonam Vaidya]

EBay.

[Conan O'Brien]

From rare collectibles and vintage cars to designer fashion, it's all there. You can find it if it's out there. And it can be back in your loving arms shop. Ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. EBay. Things people love. You know, I value hard work. I just do. I have an incredible work ethic.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Yep.

[Conan O'Brien]

And that brings me to Nutrigrain. Nutrigrain is a whole hardworking snack. Okay, I was wondering where you were going. Well, of course, the minute David knew. The minute I said hard work, he knew Nutrigrain was coming. It's a hardworking snack that fits into real life and it helps hardworking people get it done. Let me explain. It's made with 10 grams of whole grains, 10 vitamins and minerals and no high fructose corn syrup. Nutragrain's portable and I demand that of a snack. Yeah, I demand that it be portable. Sometimes a great snack will come out. And it's over 600 people. I can't lug that around. £600. It's great for a grab and go option. Busy. I'm gonna grab my Nutrigrain bar. Chomp, chomp. And I'm doing my best work ever. Yeah, you can choose between strawberry flavored Nutrigrain for a delicious classic or new Nutrigrain Crunchy for something new. You didn't see that coming, did you? Do you guys think you're hardworking enough to merit these new Nutrigrain bars? Enough. Obviously.

[Sonam Vaidya]

I don't know. I don't know if there's more hard working assistants.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay, tell me what you do and I will assess if you're hardworking enough.

[Sonam Vaidya]

You know what? You look really nice today. I massaged your ego, which is important because you go up in front of an audience.

[Conan O'Brien]

So you don't mean it? No, it looks horrible. I look terrible.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay, well, you know what? That does take a lot of energy to lie to a man with an incredibly fragile ego. Yes, and you've been doing that for years. That's a ton of work. I think you might merit a Nutrigrain bar. But let's see about David hopping David. What do you mean? I wanna state the obvious. You're here right now, which means that

[Ken Burns]

this recording was in your calendar There you go.

[Conan O'Brien]

You do my calendar. So you think you are hardworking because you clicked into a computer and typed you know what? And then hit Sam Save. I'm proud of both of you.

[Sonam Vaidya]

You're welcome.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're both hard workers. Yeah. Find nutritious and always delicious Nutrigrain bars at your favorite store or online retailer today, and look for new Nutrigrain Crunchy bars in stores near you. So Ashokan Farewell was not.

[Ken Burns]

It's not contemporary.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's not contemporary to Civil War. That's a song that one of your session music. Session musicians came up with.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah. So he. His name is Jay Unger. He's a Jewish kid from the Bronx who wrote the most beautiful Scotch Irish lament I've ever heard in my life. I'm not even sure at the beginning he knew what he had. It was so filled with heart. A friend of his, one of his co musicians, had given me an album they'd put out, and I was just doing needle drops. And on the fourth song of the first side, I heard this thing, and I went, wow. He runs a music camp, still does, in the Catskills near the Ashokan Reservoir, part of the New York City thing. And they were breaking up for the summer, and everybody was heading back to the new school year, and he sat down in like 15 minutes or so, wrote ashokan Farewell. And it is. I guarantee that today, whatever today is, it is being played a hundred times at a funeral or a memorial service or a wedding or a renewal of vows. And sometimes it's with this letter that Sullivan blew. A Rhode island soldier wrote back to his wife before his death at the first battle of Bull Run. And I've just never come across a piece of American music that works. And I like the fact that it was a Jewish guy from the Bronx who turned out a Scotch Irishman.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah. He wrote it for a bar mitzvah. Yeah, right. Original title was the Horror. Look at you. More comedy. The Horror. The Horror. Very good. You're. You're killing it. I. I feel very threatened right now. Very threatened.

[Ken Burns]

But you gotta pick subordinate talent that you know is better than you. Right. That's what George Washington did. And look what he got to be the father of our country. Like, he didn't know he was George Washington. He didn't know there was going to be a dollar bill or a quarter, a big spiky thing in the national capital name for him, or a state on the other side, continent that's named for him. And every other state has a county Or a town. He had no idea that's what was going to happen.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, he just. It's so fascinating to me that some of them must have been aware, some of the founding fathers must have been aware that I'm going down in history as a great man. Whether it was Jefferson or humility.

[Ken Burns]

You know what it is? They're aware of you. They're aware of you. They talk. John Adams talks about the millions yet unborn. They are all speaking about like, this is not. Not just for right now. We're doing this. Like Tom Paine says, not since the time of Noah do we have a chance to make it over. This is why the world turned upside down. Everything had been the same for a thousand years. Your family had worked the same plot of land in Wales or Scotland or Ireland or England, and now you had the possibility of owning somebody else's land, Indian land. But you could see that things could change and that all of a sudden, everybody up to this point had been subjects and now they were this new thing called citizens. And a few sentences after pursuit of happiness. Few phrases. Jefferson says, all experience has shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. It's not hard to parse. It means that heretofore everybody just puts up with the authoritarian boot. And you know what? We're not going to do that anymore. We're not going to do that. It's going to take extra energy. And I think whenever we're in a bad spot, it's because that energy has attributed, atrophied. And that we've forgotten that we have that energy. Not you, within me. Not that somebody else is going to take care of it, but I'm going to do. And you're seeing one of the good things about all these young people who are, you know, what's the matter with kids today? They're running for office. They're a chat, you know, they're mayor of New York. They're, you know, they're doing stuff. And that. That is a democratic impulse in the face of the idea that no evils are not. We don't have to do this. We do not have to put up with. This is not the war what Tennyson wrote, that nature is red, meaning R E D in tooth and claw, meaning everything's bloody and everything's, you know, Stephen Miller says, you know, the mightiest wind. It's not about that. We invent civilization to forestall the law of the jungle. And what you have are guys who are saying, no, it's Just the law of the jungle. Jungle. That's what authoritarians say.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. One of the things that I most admire about your work is I watch it and I feel reinvested. That's the word I come up with, is that I'm reinvested in us, this experiment. And it is an experiment, and we just have to keep working on it.

[Ken Burns]

The last line of the film, and it's not giving it away. Benjamin Rush, the only physician to sign, said, the American war is over, but the American Revolution is still going on. Doesn't mean, like Jefferson. I'm sure he would wish he could take it back, that the tree of liberty has to be watered with the blood of patriots. Patriots every 20 years. No, it means that we designed a system so we can figure out how to do that without the bloodshed.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right, right. Unbelievable. Well, thank you so much for being here, and this is remarkable. You have to come back. I know you want to do all the other podcasts first.

[Ken Burns]

No, no, let me get to some of the half a million more that I've got to do. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

You know, we have a pretty big audience on this one, so, you know, you might want to skip some of those other ones, you know. Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

Five plus you and me.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's.

[Ken Burns]

You can't.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, Eduardo doesn't listen to this.

[Ken Burns]

He doesn't listen.

[Conan O'Brien]

He has no patience.

[Ken Burns]

So we're six, including you and me.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, that's six that really go. Go out and buy stuff. So that's important. Ken, I could talk to you for maybe 40 hours and just be the happiest guy in the world and not totally down with that. And not.

[Ken Burns]

Yeah, well, I have a brief nine part response to every question.

[Conan O'Brien]

Listen to Ken Burns. 14 part response. But I've taken such solace in your work. It's just. It does nourish me in the very best way. And I do think all of this goes beyond politics. I like to try and step out of that divide and try to say to people that we. We. I believe we all want similar things. We do. And I think there's many more good people than bad people. And this is. I mean, I love this country and I always think we can do better, and I think we will. And I just get that from your work and I get so inspired.

[Ken Burns]

I think, obviously, if you know where you've been been, you can know a little bit better where you are. That's the optimism in the face of the Chicken Littles, of this narcissistic moment. But you also know where you're going and so you can begin to see in the midst of being like that little kid in Schindler's List, completely submerged in shit, that he's submerged in shit because he's dedicated to living. Living. And so that our next job is repair and restoration, and we should be thinking about that rather than, oh, the sky is falling. Oh, it's really. It's been worse. You know, this is the worst it's ever been in American history. It's not. And, you know, things will. There's a fluidity, and the only thing that's certain is it's going to change in some way. And you have to actually be prepared to catch that change. I like that. That's the biggest.

[Conan O'Brien]

There's better times are coming, and we have to prepare for that.

[Ken Burns]

Happy days are here again. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

All right. Well, Ken, again, if anyone out there hasn't listened to the American Revolution series, we actually.

[Ken Burns]

They can watch it, too, because listening is a podcasty kind of thing, you know? But we spent 10 years assembling images, even when there were no photographs.

[Conan O'Brien]

I swear to God. I swear to God. I didn't realize that there were images that went along with the show. I watched it on television, but my face was averted from the screen.

[Sonam Vaidya]

Oh, okay.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I'm told it was quite beautiful. Yeah. As Conan's eyesight failed and he listened to the bright podcast of Ken Burns special, Conan was filled with joy.

[Ken Burns]

They're a pretty dense, literate thing. You can listen to them, too. It's okay. But there's some nice. There's some great paintings and some cool reenactments.

[Conan O'Brien]

You know, it's beautiful. And I don't know why I said listen.

[Ken Burns]

I think because we're doing a podcast.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, I think I was really thrown when you made that long list. Fluently. I think I was in shock that my brain has atrophied to this degree. Degree.

[Ken Burns]

Should we practice the list?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

Okay.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Ken Burns]

Deck oration. Constitution.

[Conan O'Brien]

Constitution.

[Ken Burns]

Bill of Rights.

[Conan O'Brien]

Bill of Rights.

[Ken Burns]

You jump ahead. Land grant colleges. Homestead Act. Homestead National Park. Yeah. National Park. Child labor. I forgot to say, even antitrust laws. You know, that's pretty good. Then I think there'd be all the New Deal programs. And then let's list them. Social Security. Labor's right to organize. WPA, which created 10,000 landing scripts. And the Civilian Conservation Corps, with all that work on the parks. I mean, if you landed at LaGuardia Airport. New deal. Went through the Triborough Bridge. New Deal. Lincoln Tunnel. New Deal. Right. Skyline Drive. New Deal. Right. All the Dams in the Lincoln highway, all the dams in the northwest. That's all 10,000 landing strips, a billion trees. We're not even out of the New Deal.

[Conan O'Brien]

The people peanut is neither a pea nor a nut. It's a legume.

[Ken Burns]

Thank you very much.

[Conan O'Brien]

That I still know. And that's my list. Ken, please go out and do more. Amazing work. Also, this book is gorgeous.

[Ken Burns]

So Jeff Ward, that I've worked with for 45 years, this is the most wonderful book. He has put his heart and his soul into it.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, and it's this gorgeous artwork, to your point. And, and I spent. I've just. I opened it randomly to a page of some Revolutionary War powder horns that were etched, engraved, and I was just geeking out over them, thinking, I gotta get a powder horn. Went on Amazon.

[Ken Burns]

Nope, no powder horns.

[Conan O'Brien]

No. No. Revolutionary War power horns. Powder horns.

[Ken Burns]

You took a powder horn.

[Conan O'Brien]

Exactly. Okay, I'll do the comedy round. Now you're doing the comedy too? I'm getting my. My ass kicked. I don't know.

[Ken Burns]

You were here for the takedown of me.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, I know.

[Ken Burns]

It's not happening.

[Conan O'Brien]

This is jiu jitsu. Ken, thank you so much. This is amazing.

[Ken Burns]

This is really fun.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Announcer/Producer]

Conan o' Brien needs a friend. With Conan o', Brien, Sonam of Session and Matt Gourley produced by me, Matt Gourley executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross and Nick Leow. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer. Samples, engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Bautista and Brit Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a few future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign [e-mail] Conan and if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O' Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[Conan O'Brien]

Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun the Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your

[Ken Burns]

podcasts or watch full video on YouTube. This show is brought to you by Pepsi. Do you ever wonder if you're choosing the soda that you actually prefer? That's the question at the heart of the Pepsi Pan. When labels and bias disappear, people prefer the taste of Pepsi Zero sugar. In the 2025 Pepsi Challenge, 66% of people in blind taste tests prefer the taste of Pepsi Zero Sugar over Coca Cola Zero Sugar. It's time to let your taste decide. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi.