The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling

Summary

Podcast Summary: Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend – "The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
• Release Date: January 10, 2025
• Host: Conan O’Brien
• Guest: Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman & Dr. John Gottman
• Duration: Approximately 65 minutes

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode begins with brief promotional segments for a new comedy movie starring Will Ferrell and Reese Witherspoon, followed by an Apple Card advertisement. Shortly after, Jordan Schlansky introduces the theme of the episode, highlighting the growing fascination with the dynamic between him and Conan O’Brien over their three-decade-long professional relationship.

2. Exploring the Conan-Jordan Relationship

Jordan initiates a discussion about their long-standing yet contentious relationship, questioning the progress they've made over the years. He states at [02:20]:

Jordan Schlansky: "I think it is. I am educating."

Conan responds by emphasizing the importance of their international connection and deeper human bonds facilitated by technology, though Jordan remains skeptical about their ability to resolve ongoing tensions.

3. Introduction of Marriage Counselors

At [09:10], Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman join the show as experts from the Gottman Institute, renowned for their work on marriage stability and conflict resolution. Jordan introduces them, stating:

Jordan Schlansky: "They are such experts. I've been told this was a wonderful opportunity."

4. Analyzing Relationship Dynamics

Using pulse oximeters to measure stress levels, the Gottmans assess the immediate tension between Conan and Jordan. Dr. John Gottman explains at [12:34]:

Dr. John Gottman: "Your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight right now."

Throughout the session, the couple engages in a series of confrontations, highlighting patterns of criticism and contempt. Notable interactions include Jordan accusing Conan of being "unemployable" and Conan defending his contributions to their relationship.

Notable Quote:

Conan O’Brien ([18:02]): "I bring value to your life as a friend and compatriot."

5. Identifying Negative Communication Patterns

The Gottmans identify key issues such as lack of vulnerability and persistent negativity. Dr. Julie emphasizes the destructive nature of contempt, explaining at [26:46]:

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: "Contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship."

They explore how Conan's tendency to correct Jordan and Jordan's defensive responses contribute to their strained interactions.

6. Role-Playing Positive Communication

In an attempt to model healthier interactions, the Gottmans facilitate a role-play scenario where Conan and Jordan practice expressing appreciation instead of criticism. Conan apologizes for past grievances, saying at [57:29]:

Conan O’Brien: "I am sorry if some of my information sharing has been offensive. I certainly didn't mean it that way."

However, Jordan remains resistant, highlighting the deep-seated nature of their conflicts.

7. Key Insights and Conclusions

The episode delves deep into the mechanics of their tumultuous relationship, uncovering underlying issues rooted in their upbringing and professional interactions. Despite efforts to foster understanding and empathy, both Conan and Jordan struggle to break free from their ingrained negative patterns.

Final Insights:

Dr. John Gottman ([61:43]): "You guys bicker and banter back and forth. Lots of criticism, lots of contempt. Nobody's being vulnerable."

The Gottmans conclude that while there is potential for improvement, the entrenched dynamics between Conan and Jordan present significant challenges.

8. Closing Remarks

As the counseling session wraps up, the episode transitions back to promotional content, including advertisements for "How Did This Get Made?" and other shows produced by Team Coco & Earwolf.

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Conclusion: This episode offers an unfiltered glimpse into the complex relationship between Conan O’Brien and Jordan Schlansky, facilitated by expert guidance from the Gottmans. Through candid dialogue and professional analysis, listeners gain insight into the challenges of maintaining long-term professional relationships and the importance of effective communication in overcoming personal conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Schlansky ([05:03]): "I would like us to not fight all the time. Is that possible?"
• Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman ([26:29]): "Because contempt ... predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is gonna have in the next four years."
• Conan O’Brien ([48:52]): "I'd like to think that we represent the human condition with all of its ups and downs."

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For More Episodes: Subscribe to Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend on Apple Podcasts, SiriusXM, or your preferred podcast platform to stay updated with Conan’s journey to find genuine friendships.

Transcript

[Conan O'Brien]

Foreign.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You don't want to miss.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Unknown]

You're cordially invited. It's a hilarious new movie starring comedy icons Will Ferrell and Reese Witherspoon.

[Conan O'Brien]

Love them.

[Unknown]

I saw the trailer for this and this is right up my alley. I love anything with the two of them. And just like I miss good old fashioned comedies, chaos ensues when two weddings are accidentally booked on the same day at the same venue.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Get out.

[Unknown]

Will Ferrell plays the father of the bride and Reese Witherspoon is the sister of the other bride.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh.

[Unknown]

As they go head to head to deliver a special day for the ones they love, don't miss this laugh out loud Showdown. It's Farrell vs. Witherspoon and you're cordially invited. Watch it on January 30th only on Prime Video.

[Conan O'Brien]

If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus, you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high Yield Savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card and the Wallet app subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch member FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

A modern day.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Warrior mean mean str.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Hi. Today's Tom Sawyer Mean, Mean pride.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay, well, if you're listening to the song Tom Sawyer, you know that you are enjoying the Conan and Jordan show. This is a show. You can't find it anywhere else. And so far, I'm told people love this show. It's doing quite well. And it's growing. It's growing rapidly because people are fascinated with the relationship between Conan O'Brien and Jordan Schlansky. How long have we been shooting remotes and things together? Jordan, you've worked for me for how many years?

[Conan O'Brien]

Approximately 30 years.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay. And we started shooting things, I don't know, like 20 years ago, maybe 15 to 20. Okay. I like that you always give a range.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's really not completely relevant.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I think it is. I am educating. Listen, I go anywhere in the world. I was just in Ireland shooting some stuff for Max. Used to be called hbo. And then someone said, no, that name's too cool. Let's call it Max. So anyway, I was shooting something for them in Dublin and people were coming up to me on the street and saying, where's Jordan? People all over the world know that you and I have this fraught relationship. It lives online. And now it lives on Sirius xm, and I couldn't be happier.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, that's fascinating to me. International connection is. It's a great coming together of humanity from disparate cultures and communities. And this technology that we find ourselves surrounded with allows this to happen. And really, it just allows for a deeper human connection.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah. Okay. Well, if we could cut that, I would, but I don't know that we have the money to edit. I'm just gonna let it sit there. Just.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, you brought. You brought up the subject, so I just.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah, I brought it up. Oh, there's no need to expand. What if you'd been sitting next to Lincoln when he gave the Gettysburg Address Four score and seven. I'd just like to point out, of course, that four score and seven years ago. Of course, that's a shorthand. He is referring to the Declaration of Independence. Yes, and, you know, no, Lincoln didn't need someone to expand.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, this is a radio show, and I do have a microphone in front of me. So the implication is I'm supposed to speak.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I spent half an hour trying to saw that microphone off its stand. Because I want to do a radio show with you where you don't have a microphone. That's what I would like. Jordan, part of our appeal, if we can call it that, some of the fascination is that people can tell that my irritation with you is real.

[Conan O'Brien]

I see.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Do you agree with that? I mean, there is.

[Conan O'Brien]

This is not for me to assess.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's not a bit, is what I'm saying. There's no way I could invent this contentious relationship. This is not wrestling. This is real. You're constantly getting under my skin. You and I have had many issues over the years. For a long time, I didn't know what you did on the show.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm just being kind. Cause I still don't know why you're working for me. And you've committed, I think, some crimes. You've purchased expensive equipment that you yourself used, and you charged it to the show. You came in late for a while, you've traveled the world with me. You're a know it all. You've. I've caught you many times saying the wrong thing, and you never back down. And here we are after all these years, and I don't feel we've made any progress. Do you think we're making progress?

[Conan O'Brien]

I didn't know we were attempting to make progress. What exactly was the assignment?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I would like us to not fight all the time. Is that possible?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, I mean, we're two Men in an incredibly intimate situation, I think that we explore.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What does that mean? You're bringing up a sexual connotation now?

[Conan O'Brien]

Intimacy is not necessarily sexual, although often is.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You and I, with me, whenever I'm intimate with someone, it quickly becomes sexual.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, you're intimate with me.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah. And I'm afraid it's going to get sexual very quickly.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm already aroused. I'll be honest with you, okay? I mean, nothing's happened down there in four years. So this is a huge, huge deal for me. It's like a zombie waking up after a long sleep. Jordan, I would like to get along with you.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Would you like the same thing?

[Conan O'Brien]

I think we do get along.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What are you talking about? All we do is.

[Conan O'Brien]

I mean, we're two friends, and I.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Don'T think we're friends. I'm your boss. You have to stand up. Both of these things, there are barriers.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, they're not mutually exclusive concepts. We are friends.

[Jordan Schlansky]

We are friends.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I pay you, okay? And I wish you did as I told you to do.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

But. And yes. And if that still means we're friends, then yes. And I dream of firing you.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

But we're still friends.

[Conan O'Brien]

Are you asking me about these things? Are you just telling me that you dislike me for real? And you dream about terminating my employer?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Do you listen?

[Conan O'Brien]

I don't know what kind of response you're looking for.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay, Jordan, let me ask you something, and be completely honest with the viewers. I do have people that say to me, oh, this must be some kind of bit. This must be some kind of thing that they work out. We have never worked anything out.

[Conan O'Brien]

That is absolutely true.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, I would like us. I'm in a stage of my life. God knows if I have much time left. And I would like to. I'd like to make progress. I'd like to make peace. And there are, I don't know, there might be 50 hours online of you and I bickering. That circulates the globe at all times. And I would like to stop the cycle if I could. I would like you and I to get along and figure out what is it maybe I'm doing, but mostly what is it you're doing? Like me, maybe 10% you, 90%. You're like the iceberg on the Titanic. Really? You're the one that's at fault. You're the one that tore the side off my ship. And now all those women and children, men are gonna die. But anyway, again, your iceberg, mostly your fault.

[Conan O'Brien]

You struck me, ended up getting hurt in the process. It was dark, right?

[Jordan Schlansky]

It was dark, Right? It was very dark. There was no technology.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, but you knew it would be dark. It's not a surprise that it was dark. Darkness happens. There's day and there's night.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It was a maiden voyage. My first time at sea and I didn't know that the night came on so darkly in the North Atlantic. You fucking iceberg. You came along and you weren't lying there. You were. Of course. Everything floats and moves in a current. You came hurtling down from the north and you smashed into me. I was having a good time. Bowen Yang does a wonderful sketch on this where he's the iceberg and claiming it's not his fault. No, it was the iceberg. I disagree with Bowen Yang.

[Conan O'Brien]

I understand from an entitled perspective, you may think you can move through life without worrying about obstacles and just go where you please, but there are icebergs out there and you do need to navigate them like any other human.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay. My point is you're large and inanimate. You're frozen to the touch.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm a mesomorph. I'm medium.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What's that?

[Conan O'Brien]

You're large.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Why do you say I'm large? I'm tall.

[Conan O'Brien]

Why do you say I'm large? I'm a mesomorph. I'm very average. I'm medium.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Conan O'Brien]

Moderate.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I've never heard an iceberg speak so you know insanely about their body type. I think icebergs float around and say I'm a mesomorph. No, they don't. What I was. The point I'm trying to make is that I have drifted through my career peacefully with little friction. I'm a high class operation, beautifully built ship, and then this lunky piece of ice slammed into me and ruined everything. So let's fix this. Are you ready to fix it? Sure, I am. Now I'd like to introduce Frank Smiley.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Hello.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Who's the producer of the Conan and Jordan Show. I have to keep looking to make sure that that's actually the name. I'm glad my name is first. Right.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Well, this is a very special episode.

[Conan O'Brien]

Because it feels special. Something's going on here, by the way. I don't know what's going on.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And you know what I love? You never know what's going on.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. We're sitting in different positions. There's like a hubbub going on, and I don't know why.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Okay, well, I'll tell you why. Because Today we have two guests.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Dr. John Gottman]

The Gottmans, okay. Dr. Julie Schwartz, Gottman and Dr. John Gottman. They are the co founders of the Gottman Institute in Washington, and they're here to help you. What they are is world renowned psychologists, and they work on marriage stability and divorce predictions, and they're really good at this. They know how to deal with people who have conflicts and they know how to help them with their conflicts.

[Jordan Schlansky]

They also. I'll mention it now and probably mention it again as a plug. This has nothing to do with what we're doing, but it actually has everything to do with what we're doing. They have a book called Fight Right. They are such experts. They've written a book. It's all about how to fight correctly. And these are experts. I mean, these might be the two foremost authorities on fighting conflict resolution. Partners. You and I are partners. We didn't ask to be, but we've been thrust together into this situation. And I think there's a good chance the Gottmans. Do you agree, Frank? The Gottmans. If anyone can help us, it's the Gottmans.

[Dr. John Gottman]

It's the Gottmans for sure. So let's bring them in.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Let's bring them in.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Okay. Oh, here they come.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Here they come. Oh, hello there. How are you? Do I call you Julie? You do call me Dr. Julie and doctor.

[Frank Smiley]

Hey, Jordan.

[Conan O'Brien]

Doctor. Pleasure.

[Frank Smiley]

John.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah. I'd stand, but I met you already and my legs don't work.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

That's enough.

[Jordan Schlansky]

One standing for you guys was enough. Do I call you Dr. Julie? Dr. John. What do you like, John?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Julie.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay. All right, well, listen, let me start by saying I don't respect what we do in this studio. And so when people like yourselves, who are real professionals, take time in to come in and help us, it's a blessing. Yes, it's really nice.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I'll say that I've never met you two before, but you have the air of incredibly kind people. There's something, there's a vibe that you two have that makes me feel like I've known you for years.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I did not get that. I did not get that. I saw them shoot kindness towards you. And what I received was a hostility and mixed with indifference. Let me start by saying. Saying thank you very much, doctors Gottman, for being here. You really do know your stuff. And it's thrilling to be in the room with you because I'm sitting here with my friend Jordan. And I'd like to start by saying, how aware are you of my relationship with Jordan Slansky? Have you viewed any of the footage.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah, I have. We both have.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

We have viewed the footage. We see the problems in the relationship. We saw that within about three and a half minutes. And it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable. And it just kept getting worse.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Yeah.

[Frank Smiley]

So the first thing we want to offer are these two pulse oximeters for you to put on.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Wait a minute. What are you talking about? What are you talking about here? This gentleman John just held up two strange devices. I don't know if those are legal. I don't know if they're sexual in nature.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

They won't shock you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

They won't stimulate you. Oh, they record your heart rate.

[Jordan Schlansky]

That's what I said to my wife on our wedding night. This will not shock you or stimulate you. Sorry. That's terrible. Oh, this is cool.

[Frank Smiley]

Put it on.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I've put this pulsometer on. My pulse oximeter is now putting it on. I'm sorry. Pulse oximeter.

[Frank Smiley]

Right.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And tell us what a pulse oximeter does.

[Frank Smiley]

So it's looking at your blood, it's measuring heart rate, and it's also measuring the percent of oxygen in your blood.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Frank Smiley]

And it's set at an alarm. And the alarm is. If your percent oxygen goes below 95% or your heart rate goes above 100 beats a minute, that's around when we start secreting our two stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Cortisone.

[Frank Smiley]

Adrenaline.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

He's still going.

[Frank Smiley]

Well, it beeps, but it. It gives an alarm.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm sorry, why is yours going off right away?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Let's see the numbers. What are the numbers?

[Conan O'Brien]

99 and 130.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Yep.

[Dr. John Gottman]

What does that mean?

[Frank Smiley]

130.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, can I point out quickly, he is. We're not sure he's from Earth. We don't know. He may have six Vulcan hearts.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Funny. He does look like he comes from Earth. So what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight right now. Just right. This is fantastic.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Hold this.

[Conan O'Brien]

Hold your thumb. Fascinating.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Don't hide it. Yeah, don't hide it. You are. You set off that alarm immediately and you're sitting in a chair.

[Conan O'Brien]

I don't know how this has been calibrated. I can't verify its accuracy.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

What it tells us. See, you guys have already had an interaction, right?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You just had interaction and you sat. You took it in. It was critical. It put you down.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You might want to take that off. We should take that off for a second because I Think listeners listening right now will go insane. So take yours off just for a moment and for it to allow it to recalibrate.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Yep. So basically, when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked. That's what it means. And your body is reacting as you would if you were facing a saber tooth tiger.

[Conan O'Brien]

I see.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Heart rate goes up. So, you know what would be good to do, guys, is if we could just watch you for, you know, five minutes or something. Just talk about a problem you guys haven't solved. Whatever it is, we'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit.

[Conan O'Brien]

I understand.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Does that sound okay?

[Jordan Schlansky]

That sounds fantastic. I'm watching. My heart rate is now 93. It's plummeting. It says here I'm having a small stroke. I'm glad you guys laughed.

[Conan O'Brien]

So these are evolutionary responses designed to protect us against a threat. Against a large prehistoric animal that may be attacking us. Our body reacts in a way that will really ensure our survival. And my reaction to this animal is, in the end, to benefit my own survival.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Jordan, can I point out something? Human beings are pack animals. We need each other. We depend on each other. And in fact, we can't survive unless. Unless things keep going.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It just keeps going.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

We have connection.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And, you know, it's interesting.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Wait, Conan.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection. It doesn't feel good to you. And that's getting highlighted a little bit. Up goes the herpes.

[Frank Smiley]

Well, the problem arises when it becomes non adaptive, which means that it's a chronic elevation.

[Conan O'Brien]

I see.

[Frank Smiley]

If it's there all the time, then it kind of spirals down.

[Conan O'Brien]

I understand.

[Frank Smiley]

And neither one of you then can really ask one another for what you really need.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Right.

[Frank Smiley]

And that's part of what we want to help you do.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Now, here's where it gets tricky, because you said I need to ask Jordan for what I really need, but what if what I really need is for him to shut up?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, so what you're saying is that that's not a personal need. What that is is trying to control his interaction with you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes, that's what I want to do.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, so flip it on its head.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'd love to. I'd love to flip him upside down.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay. That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy. Yeah. And so try saying how he could shine for you. What could he do Right. For you?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Very good. You could work for Someone else in a different profession, maybe in a. I think in a different city, that's something that might make me happy.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, so let's pause a minute. So what's it like for you when you hear him say that?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, I don't feel like it accurately reflects my work performance. I think I bring value to my employment. I think I bring value to your life as a friend and compatriot. I think, I'd like to think, I'd like to think that your life is of a better quality for having known me. Maybe that is arrogant in some fashion, but I'd like to think we have a mutually respectful relationship. I certainly respect you. You're an extraordinary man.

[Jordan Schlansky]

But can I say something I'd like to just bring up, just for the record? Oh, I'm, I'm sorry.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

What was it like for you to hear him say, I certainly respect you? Do you believe him?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Did you guys watch the O.J. trial?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

A little bit, yeah. I, I remember thinking, Is that the parallel?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah. I think he's a murderer. And I, I, I'm not sure I buy what he's selling. Do you respect me? Because, and here's what I'm gonna say. There's tons of footage of him criticizing my skin, the shape of my face. He sometimes more than implies that I've put on a little weight, that I, he calls me, I think he's referred to me as the beast and the monster.

[Conan O'Brien]

You're presenting this information with no context.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What is the proper context for that?

[Conan O'Brien]

Let's be be realistic. Okay? We've known each other for decades and we work in a very intimate environment. Many hours. We've been through tough times and good times, seen each other grow, been there for each other through thick and thin. I've seen emotional damage. I've seen physical damage. I.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What are you talking about?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, I've seen injury. I've seen you concussed.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. I've seen you in your lowest emotional state and your highest emotional state, often.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Within a one hour period.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And, and with that intimacy. With that intimacy. Because we are human beings and this is not a robotic interaction only.

[Jordan Schlansky]

An alien keeps saying, I'm a human being and not a robot. Most human beings just.

[Conan O'Brien]

What I'm saying is there are going to be ups and downs. Yes, of course I respect you and I think you're a great man. Are you without injury to me? Have there been injurious experiences? Of course there have. And I accept that as part of the human experience. We can speak of them if you like.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Jordan went into great detail once doctors about how he thought that I was in great shape because he reviews all the footage and then, wow, my monitor's going up now. And then he said that there was a period of time, like a two year period where he thought I gained weight. And he said it sickens me to look at you during that period of time. Did you not say that?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, listen, again, we have to present proper context. Of course I'm concerned about your health and your longevity, both from a practical financial standpoint point. And also a human relationship standpoint. If I see you partaking in unhealthy behavior, I'd like to think we're at a stage where I can mention it to you respectfully.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You said there were periods in the late night show when I, you thought I gained weight. Probably in the early 2000s.

[Conan O'Brien]

2002.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Have you got the date?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, it was, I started the end of 2001. It was right after 2003.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You know, what happened is I, I got married and I was very happy. After years and years of trying to find the right partner, um, I gave up and married this woman. No kidding. I, I, I found my wife very happy and we, she was cooking me all this great food and, and yeah, I probably put on a little weight. My face got a little round. I started to resemble Ted Kennedy in the late 80s. And yeah, and, and Jordan was quite, I see it now. You, you have to take that thing off. It's just going crazy. You're like a, it's like, it's like a smoke alarm in the Towering Inferno. You just, but, but he, I see now because of your help that you were in a, as a friend. I think rather than just having, making fun of me, you were telling me as a friend something that no one else. Jeff Ross isn't going to say you gained a little weight. Paula Davis isn't going to say that. They're all. Yes people, you know, they just whatever's good, you know. But you, you were trying to tell me the truth.

[Frank Smiley]

Do you respect that?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I do, yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

So you really appreciate that honesty?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I wish he hadn't said the word grotesque, I think. And he called me the beast and the monster.

[Frank Smiley]

That's a bad way to express concern.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Thank you, John.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can't confirm that I use that word, but I have no reason to doubt you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, I stuck in my mind quite.

[Conan O'Brien]

Clearly when I called you the beast, was I referring to your physical condition or was referring to maybe an emotional attack that you performed on me?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

I Performed on you. So pause for a minute.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Pause.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes, doctor.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, so what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you. You appreciated his honesty. You said you respected him. So how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult and be honest about it? How does it actually feel? Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, I'm going to speak purely as professional. It's not as funny when we're being really mean to each other. People are laughing. When I'm hearing Jordan and appreciating him and he's telling me he respects me, I just see an empty audience and I panic.

[Frank Smiley]

You know, I'm not sure that's true because people love you, and when they.

[Jordan Schlansky]

See you, there's actually. There's no data on that.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of data on that.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, I. We've looked for.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

How many followers do you guys have?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I don't even know.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, if you prefer to speak about injurious behavior, we can. You've clearly brought up something that bothers you. This comment that I allegedly made.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And I think this is important to review some of the more toxic areas. Okay, I'm going to say that you. You. You have made fun of the way I sometimes don't get all the hairs on my neck shaved.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. You know, I'm noticing right now on the right corner of your mouth. How does. I just want. I'm curious. Above all, scientifically speaking, you two are doctors. Doctor comes from the Latin docere, or in the ecclesiastical pronunciation, docere. It actually means to teach, which is perfectly suited.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Right.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm just curious, scientifically, how does it happen? Like, you have a mirror, you're shaving. How do you miss such large chunks of hair on the corners of your mouth? And I'm not trying to insult you. I know conventionally speaking, it sounds like I am. I'm really, as a scientist, how does it happen? I'm just very curious.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I do things quickly. I'm always in a rush. Very type A. I take quick swipes with the razor. Also, I now predominantly work in radio. The lenses here aren't that exact. My wife doesn't get to see me up close too much. She's grown very distant. That's not true. I just threw it in there to see if I could pique your attention. But I don't think she's getting a good look at my face anymore. She saw it. She liked it in you know, 1999.

[Frank Smiley]

It was enough.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It was enough. Thank you. Thank you, John. It was more than enough. And so that's why he is very much into manscaping. He likes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Stop, stop. Don't describe him. Describe you. So you were doing a beautiful job. Perfect, perfect, perfect answer. You didn't go defensive, you didn't go counter attacking. You describe you. And that is really, really, really important in terms of having a decent relationship. You don't describe the other person.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I see.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt. And contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's when you're criticizing from on high, being superior.

[Frank Smiley]

What else is it?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is gonna have, like in the next four years. The times of contempt in 15 minutes.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Are you saying that I could make Jordan sick by putting him down?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Yes.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, this is fantastic. Thank you. You giving you a weapon you just handed. Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You are such a rascal.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, I am. That's the nicest. That's the nicest way to put it.

[Frank Smiley]

Well, the problem is that the person who's contemptuous, that person's immune system also degrades over time.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Right. So by holding contempt for Jordan, I'm also damaging my own immune system. I'm lowering its ability to fight infection. So this is, this is self defeating. This is bad for both of us.

[Conan O'Brien]

Can I respectfully ask which I think is constructive, if I notice large patches of unshaved hair on your face, would you prefer if I remain silent and don't bring it to your attention? Like if you walk in and you just have a huge patch of hair, maybe on your Adam's apple, for example, you prefer that I note it internally?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, first of all.

[Conan O'Brien]

But remains silent.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You're implying that the hair has grown out so much.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm just simply asking you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Flying. The hair is growing out so much.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can braid it. I have seen such wild growth. And in a very specific area, I am.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Can I just say one thing?

[Conan O'Brien]

Profile area.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I am a. I am a very masculine man. And I'm. I, I know you're going to stop me in a second. Say this isn't relevant, Conan, but I would like to say in my own defense, I am, for a man my age, I think, pulsating with testosterone. I pump out a lot of facial hair very quickly. I think sometimes that's not my fault. And for you to attack me for being one of the most masculine men you know Is, I think, probably unfair.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Frank Smiley]

He wants you to be quiet about it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay, I will be quiet. I will note it to myself. I will not mention it to anyone else. Nor. Nor you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, you also tend to mention it when there are cameras and microphones around. Wouldn't it be fair to approach me quietly and say, conan, you have a long tuft. It looks like a ponytail coming out of four pores to the right of your Adam's apple. And I will take care. I'll seek out the proper authority.

[Conan O'Brien]

So you prefer I pull you aside, maybe before taping look at him and can't get to your attention. Your errors. Your shaving errors in private.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, pause. Yes, Put down.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, okay, okay. So shaving errors, I mean, it's objective. Well, I don't assume his intention was to miss the hair, so I consider it an objective analysis.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Can you read his mind?

[Conan O'Brien]

I cannot. He may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting tuff of hair.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Right?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. I don't know.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Why does it matter to you? Why does it matter to you?

[Jordan Schlansky]

What do you care?

[Conan O'Brien]

It certainly doesn't matter, but I think when there's an elephant in the room, when a man walks in who's 95% shaved and there's just hair jetting out of his cheek, I just think it's worth mentioning. I don't mean any insult. I don't mean any insult. It's easily fixable. It's not a slight on your care. We all make mistakes. I make mistakes. They're not related to large tufts of hair on my face. But I just think that as human beings, we have to acknowledge something so painfully obvious that was somehow missed with all your technology. Mirrors. You have lighting in your bathroom. But I'll do as you say and pull you aside and let you know.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I love that you refer to light and the mirror as technology. Some trips are better in an Airbnb. It's just true. Like the trip you want to take with extended, where you want to stay close but not all be sharing one bathroom. That's key for me. Okay. That's why Airbnb is the choice I often want to make. Or, for example, the couple's getaway, where you'd rather have your own pool than share one with a bunch of strangers. Oh, when I'm in a pool with strangers, I start shrieking.

[Unknown]

Okay, that's weird.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Or that last minute local getaway when you just really need to get out of the city for the weekend but don't want to deal with the airport. You know, I have to say I've used Airbnb a couple of times and it always makes me feel like I'm at home, even when I'm away. Do you have that?

[Unknown]

I do too. I mean, I have. You know, I have two small kids who are loud. And so when I'm in a hotel, I feel a little uncomfortable.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, you're loud too.

[Unknown]

Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah, we're all loud. And then in an Airbnb, I just feel much more comfortable.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You're not as self conscious.

[Unknown]

No.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And also you're staying in someone's home. It's got that vibe of comfort, relaxation, normalcy instead of some stuffy hotel. Yeah, I don't wanna mint on my pillow. Hey, Blay, you use Airbnb, don't you? I do. I love it. And I will say there's. Staying in someone's place really does add a lot. I'm a huge Stephen King fan and the last Airbnb I stayed in had this book from a Buick 8, which is one of the few Stephen King books I haven't read. So I actually started reading it in the Airbnb. It was pretty awesome. And you know what I do sometimes when I'm at an Airbnb? I often travel with a picture of myself in frame. Oh, boy. And I take it out and I put it up and it feels like home. I travel with my own framed headshot. Do you leave it there for as a gift? That's mine. Those things are precious. So if you're booking a trip soon, my number one tip is to check out Airbnb first to find the perfect place to stay. Because your accommodation really does make all the difference.

[Unknown]

Blay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You don't want to miss.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Unknown]

You're cordially invited. It's a hilarious new movie starring comedy icons Will Ferrell and Reese Witherspoon.

[Conan O'Brien]

Love them.

[Unknown]

I saw the trailer for this and this is right up my ass. I love anything with the two of them. And just like I miss good old fashioned comedies, chaos ensues when two weddings are accidentally booked on the same day at the same venue.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Get out.

[Unknown]

Will Ferrell plays the father of the bride and Reese Witherspoon is the sister of the other bride.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh.

[Unknown]

As they go head to head to deliver a special day for the ones they love. Don't miss this. Laugh out loud Showdown. It's feral versus Witherspoon, and you're cordially invited. Watch it on January 30th only on Prime Video.

[Conan O'Brien]

Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the Getting better part waiting on hold for an appointment. Sitting in crowded waiting rooms, Standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove these painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful.

[Jordan Schlansky]

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[Unknown]

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[Jordan Schlansky]

With the chance to redeem for real cash prizes. Yeah. Yeah. I love blackjack. You get to go.

[Conan O'Brien]

Hit me.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Hit me. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And stay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah, and stay. That's the other one. Yeah. Yeah. Good one. Yeah. High Five Casino has a giant selection of over 1200 games, including hundreds of exclusive games only found on High Five Casino. It's always free to play and free coins are given out every Friday, four hours. You can tell time by it. Ready to have your own High Five moment? Nicely done, copywriter. Visit high5casino.com. That's high. The number fivecasino.com. no purchase necessary. Void where prohibited by law. Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply. Jordan. My personal appearance is one of the things that we have trouble with. Another thing that we have difficulty with is that Jordan loves to expand, as he did, on the phrase doctors. I find that insulting because you're both doctors, you're both highly educated, you're very successful, highly intelligent people. And then this guy is telling you the Latin root, what it comes from and what it means everywhere we go.

[Frank Smiley]

I love it.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Me too.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You like it?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

We're always learning. He taught us something.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Here's the one thing I'm gonna say, Julie.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

If it's okay. He's often wrong. The information he told you, I would look it up. Because there's a 75% chance he's wrong. He has held forth and expounded on where Karate Kid 2 was filmed. Wrong. You know the origins of pizza. What you're allowed to drink with pizza. He said you don't drink wine with pizza if you're doing it correctly. He was corrected, you know, in Italy, by the people making the pizza that, yes, you drink wine with pizza. He's constantly.

[Conan O'Brien]

These are your insults that I didn't know where The Karate Kid 2 was filmed.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, man, that was humiliating.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right?

[Jordan Schlansky]

And Ralph Macchio, who played the Karate Kid.

[Conan O'Brien]

Ralph Macchio.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's Machio.

[Conan O'Brien]

In fact, the ch makes a hard C sound like Pinocchio.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Pause, pause, pause, pause. So when you correct him, that's contempt.

[Conan O'Brien]

I see.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

I know more than you do. Let me tell you how it's right.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. I imagine a world where one can share information, where human beings can increase their collective intellect by sharing information. I've learned some things. You've learned some things. You tell me what you know, I'll tell you what I know. So you may not know that the ch is pronounced with a heart skin. And that's understandable. I wouldn't expect it to. Italian's not your first language. But unlike you and I definitely know things that I don't know. Presidential history, for example. And we can share with each other, and we can both come out smarter and more knowledgeable for it. I don't see the contempt. Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Can I point out something? You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it. If you share it when the other person is talking about something else, and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation. You're interrupting what they're trying to say and being superior because you know better and commenting on it. And when he does that, what do you feel?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, I'm gonna point out something because I'm still wearing my monitor. Cause it hasn't been beeping at all. Yours has exploded, and blue foam is coming out of it every time it gets near you. It does not recognize you as a person. Mine, during his whole rant when he was yelling at me, went down to below 90 to 89.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Interesting.

[Jordan Schlansky]

My heart rate. I think I have so little regard for his opinion that it's almost like he's a hat rack to me. Like, I. You know, I don't. I don't. I'm not saying this is correct. I know what I'm saying is terrible. And these are the confessions of probably a Ted Bundy hours before his death. But my heart rate went down when you were yammering and jabbering. Because I thought I was just looking at a chimp in the zoo, you know? And so I was calmed and pleased.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay, pause.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Now, if you're gonna try and say chimp in the zoo is an insult, I think you're way off base. And I know that John's with me on this one.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Are you, dear?

[Frank Smiley]

Well, I was thinking of this couple where husband got very upset and said to his wife, joyce, do you think you're better than me? And she said, better than I?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, yes, Very good. My wife would do that. My wife would do that because she's very grammatically correct all the time.

[Frank Smiley]

So that's information, but in the context, it comes off as contempt.

[Jordan Schlansky]

No, at all.

[Conan O'Brien]

So you would prefer, respectfully, if I may ask, so I know how it's going forward.

[Jordan Schlansky]

We're not in a courtroom.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. You would prefer if I do not correct your mispronunciations, allow you to speak with your customary authority, even when I know that you are making errors, or maybe pull you aside right before the taping and tell you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Let me tell Julia and John one thing, which is that we were recently in Buenos Aires together. It wasn't for work. It was a romantic getaway. And he kept referring to the famous dance, the tango, as the tango. And he got in my face and said, it's called the tango. Everybody in Argentina backed me up and said, no, we call it the tango. And he went, please, it's the tango. No, it's not the tango. So it's not that your whole premise is wrong, that you have the correct information, and isn't it kind of you to share it with me? You're. You're wrong. You're just wrong all the time.

[Conan O'Brien]

I. I let him finish. I did not interrupt him, even though my instinct was to say immediately, that is incorrect. It is the tango. You see, in Spanish and Spanish speaking countries known as Hispanic, which differs from Latin American in the sense that Latin American refers to only Latin American countries. Hispanic, it's any country that speaks Spanish. The A is almost always pronounced. Ah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

So does this feel like the kind of relationship you want to have?

[Jordan Schlansky]

No. No. I would. And this is one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, is there a part in your book where you actually say it's okay for me to start hitting Jordan? Physical violence probably usually discouraged, right?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Probably. So, yeah.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What if I hired someone to do it? I don't get my hands dirty.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

How about if you just say to him, please don't put me down, Jordan?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Please don't put me down.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I groom quickly. I don't take the great care that you take with your groomings. I don't have all of the equipment you have, or the oils or the balms or the waxes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Careful.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You're right. I have to tell you, you're right. I was starting to get into judgment. Yes, you were. Yes, I was. And you know what? I appreciate that.

[Conan O'Brien]

I did not feel insulted.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Not yet.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Not yet.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

He was going there.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, yes. Trust me. I was cranking up the catapult.

[Frank Smiley]

I was pulling it back.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I was pulling it way back. And then I was going to hurl a giant boulder at your castle and destroy it. You're wearing like a wizard's hat. You're up in a tower. Too much information. My point is that I groom quickly and I don't often take the same care that you take because you are very fastidious. He's very fastidious about his grooming, and I'm not putting him down. But he has all kinds of products, mostly for grooming. He has other products for various other practices of his, which I find amoral. But that's his thing, and I'm not going to judge it. It's whatever sexual stuff he's into. But my point is, I don't take the same care you do. I don't have the same standard of beauty, the same canon of beauty that you have. So I just have to say, when you constantly point these things out to me, I feel less than I feel. I get into a defensive crouch. I think I grew up in an environment. I've talked about this a lot, but I come from a very large Irish Catholic family, the son of very, very intelligent, educated people. And yet, for some reason, we fought like animals. We threw potatoes at each other. We really did. I saw my mother throw a potato at all of us once. It's the only thing we had around. We just had so many goddamn potatoes. We've been in the country for a while, and they're very well educated people, but they brought the country with them. And my point is that I often felt attacked. And I learned growing up, sarcasm, passive aggression. My verbal judo chops would be the way that I would get through life. And then along comes this big block of wood that's just perfectly made for a judo chop. Do you know, I mean, you've seen the karate. Karate, sorry. Jordan Masters chop a board in half verbally. My whole emotional reaction to things in life is a judo chop. Attack before you can be attacked, and then in comes this inanimate large block of wood. Just a block. Just a giant block of wood. That's what he is. It's not like, you know, try having a conversation with a block of wood, you know what I'm saying? So and so I just chop away. And that's what I do to you, Jordan. And it's probably not always fair.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Conan, can I point out something? So I really appreciate you sharing that history. That history is really helpful. It lets us know that for one thing, growing up in a family where you're always being attacked, you've got to survive. Right. And how do you survive? You create defenses.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

And your defense is to counterattack. But the problem with a defense like that, you know, it's a shield in front of you to kind of hide yourself so you don't get shamed, is that you're also blocking out the positive that comes from him, the respect, the care that may be in there.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And are we certain it's in there?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

I think so.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You think there's some caring in there?

[Frank Smiley]

I mean, there's a lot of caring, John.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You think of some. Can we.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You know what he wants? He wants his paycheck. I mean, I know that sounds crass, but I am his employer. We aren't husband and wife yet.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Conan, how many decades have you been together?

[Jordan Schlansky]

What has it been, 23.

[Conan O'Brien]

20 decades.

[Jordan Schlansky]

3 decades. Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Well, that means three decades. Okay? So my guess is that if you really, really wanted to, you could work elsewhere, but you don't want to.

[Conan O'Brien]

He did not.

[Jordan Schlansky]

He looked for work, okay? He's unemployable. No, no, seriously. And you told me that because of your actions that are out on the web, you are seen as unemployable.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, there have been.

[Frank Smiley]

Why don't you get back to your point, Julie?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm sorry. I'm very sorry. I. You know what I did? I. I went again on the attack, and again the old judo chop, and I apologize, Doctor, please, go ahead and. John, you were right to stop me. I was.

[Frank Smiley]

Well, I was. I was thinking about.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Can I finish?

[Frank Smiley]

Sure, yeah, you finish. I won't interrupt you.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Right?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Yeah, yeah, we're great. Okay, so when you are hitting at him, he, of course, blocks you, but when you say, look, I really respect you, and you meant that seriously. I could tell it wasn't made up. Boom. You push it back, off it goes. Doesn't go inside, just bounces off.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm terrible at taking a compliment.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

I saw that. Why? Why?

[Conan O'Brien]

Why?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Why?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, I don't know.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

It feels good to have those compliments, Conan.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I don't let any of those in.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

No, that is sad, because those compliments could probably do a lot to heal all that shame. Inside fear, inside feeling attacked, always, if you let in those conflicts.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Let me ask both of you. I would like you to give your assessment. And this may be selfish to take Jordan out of the equation, but assess me. You've watched a lot of tape, probably against your will, but you had to because you were coming on here wrong. Do you see a damaged man? And I want to start with you, John. I want to make sure you get your.

[Frank Smiley]

No, I don't. In fact, I was really moved by your story of how when you were at Harvard and you went along with your friend to the Harvard Lampoon, you really found yourself.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I did.

[Frank Smiley]

You really found humor as a way of really expressing who you are.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I think I'm. I disagree. I think I'm very badly damaged. A madman, maybe. But I do think humor saved me from actually committing crimes, you know, from going on the loose and leaving a trail from.

[Frank Smiley]

But sometimes it's like the shield that Julie was just talking about. Sometimes humor itself is like a shield. I mean, it's a wonderful gift, obviously, and it's a great talent you have with humor. But sometimes it also blocks out the love.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

That's right.

[Frank Smiley]

That this friendship has. That is very palpable. We both feel that love.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And you feel that love is coming from Jordan, but I'm blocking it with humor.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

That's right. And put downs. And put downs. It's that counter attack.

[Frank Smiley]

I think one of the other things is that what makes this show so important to people around. All around the world is that they feel the love and they see the hostility and put downs. They see both at the same time. And it's a very powerful thing because here you are having all this love for one another and yet pushing each other away and then coming back together and pushing each other away. So it's a very powerful dynamic. And the humor is really fun, too.

[Jordan Schlansky]

This is amazing. I've never thought of it that way.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'd like to think that we represent the human condition with all of its ups and downs.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Oh, my God. You said this speech earlier, before they came in.

[Conan O'Brien]

May find this realistic approach to life endearing, and they may enjoy watching for that reason. I'm sorry I've hurt you with my misinformation, with my.

[Jordan Schlansky]

He's objectively. He was wrong about where they shot Karate Kid 2. Objectively wrong. Conan, they shot it in Los Angeles.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, they didn't shoot it in Los Angeles. They shot in Hawaii. Hawaii? Yeah.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay, but you didn't say Hawaii, did you?

[Conan O'Brien]

I just said Hawaii. Now, I've improved myself.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I'm sorry.

[Conan O'Brien]

I've improved myself. I'm open to improve.

[Jordan Schlansky]

There's certain things.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Conan.

[Frank Smiley]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Stop, stop. He's apologizing and you're interrupting. Stop, stop, stop. He's apologizing to you. He is trying to repair some injury he caused you. Did you take it in?

[Jordan Schlansky]

No, because I still remembered him being wrong.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's like a train coming at me.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Is that more important than him trying to repair the damage he's done?

[Jordan Schlansky]

You're right.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes. You see, my intentions were never evil. Just as I know Your intentions were never evil when you've committed injury against me in the past.

[Jordan Schlansky]

When have I committed injury?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, it's interesting that you ask because we spent the first hour talking about the ways I damaged you by answering questions, by.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Let him run just a little bit. Let's hear this. And don't stop. Go ahead.

[Conan O'Brien]

Now, again, I want to preface this by saying I expect when you're talking about decades of intimate relationships, that there are going to be inadvertent slights to the other person. Okay? The year was 1999, May 1999. And the world had not seen a new Star wars movie release in 16 years. And at the time, the Star wars franchise was pristine. You have to understand, put yourself back then. And they announced that a new Star wars film would be coming out in May 1999. And I was a big fan. You know, my brothers were as well. And I decided to pull out all the stops and get tickets to an advanced screening of this movie a week before the public would see this. Now, you may think media screenings are all civilized, but when it comes to Star wars, people still line up. Three hours before. So my brother came into New York City on the train. He spent hours. We got there maybe four hours in advance, and we just sat on the sidewalk together waiting for this momentous. And we were one of the first ones in the theater. And we sat right in the center. We judged how many rows were there. We wanted the full surround sound experience. We wanted to get lost in it. And of course, the theater filled up. And I was thinking, any fool that walks in now is going to be like, in the back corner. And I was envisioning the magic of that moment after it says, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, before the John Williams score.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Do you guys have anywhere to go? Or you.

[Conan O'Brien]

I was envisioning it bringing me back to my childhood. I wanted to relive what it was like to be an innocent child with my brother. Okay, so about two minutes before the movie starts, I hear some commotion behind me. And this guy stumbles in with this, like, brainy NPR type woman with. With him. And they, excuse me, excuse me. Some woman is escorting them because they're like, elite. And there just happened to have been, I guess, someone left or something two seats right behind me in the center. I had been there for five hours. This guy stumbles in. He's like tripping. He's like tripping over people.

[Jordan Schlansky]

So he sits down. I didn't stumble. I wasn't drinking.

[Conan O'Brien]

I didn't stumble no, you had a. You kicked people. You know, you were like one of those people inadvertently. You know, you tripped over people. So now you're sitting behind me and you start, like, gabbing to me. And already, already I. I don't want to talk to anybody. I just want to get lost in this moment. Okay? So the lights go down and the 20th Century Fox logo comes up. And I'm thinking to myself, this is it. After 16 years, this is it. And that silence comes right after that fanfare, before the flourishing music. And this guy leans forwards and starts cracking jokes. This guy makes it all about him. He takes me completely out of the moment. He starts jabbing in the middle of the movie theater. And you just needed that laugh. You had to take that moment not knowing the history of what I went through to get that laugh. He's sitting there chuckling, and forever you've taken that moment away from me. Now I know that it was not intentional. He may not have had respect for the situation. And most people know that they're not supposed to speak in a movie theater, especially something of that magnitude.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I knew those sequels wouldn't be good.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I think I communicated to him my interest in what was happening, in my disregard for anything that he may have had to say.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Will you admit now that those movies were not great?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, in retrospect, they did. They're not necessarily as good as the first.

[Jordan Schlansky]

So if Jordan and I, let's say in another universe. Cause I don't think it's gonna happen in this lifetime, but let's say we got along, people wouldn't be fascinated. It's because they see us taking chunks out of each other that it becomes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

It's a wrestling match.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's a wrestling match. Yeah. A very strong wrestler against a very well bodily, shaved wrestler, but one that's very, very weak and has bad information.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Careful.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You're right. That could have almost become an insult.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Tell you what. Tell you what most, huh? How about. How about if John and I role play a totally different kind of conversation.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Okay.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And are you gonna be us in this conversation?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

We're gonna be you. Slightly improved in terms of communication.

[Conan O'Brien]

Idealized versions of us.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Idealized versions of us. And an idealized version of me is apparently me.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Communication.

[Jordan Schlansky]

So who's Conan and who's Jordan?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

It doesn't matter. It's just what's between us.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Got it.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

That matters. Right? So do you want to take the beard patch?

[Frank Smiley]

Should we do the. Sure. If I'm going to be honest, there's a lot about You. That annoys me.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay. What is it that I'm doing that annoys you?

[Frank Smiley]

Okay, so when you go on about Italy and wines and all the things, you know, it makes me feel insulted. Like, wow. You know, like, my father was a microbiologist. My mother was a great lawyer.

[Jordan Schlansky]

This is scary. He's being me.

[Frank Smiley]

He's being me. You know, I felt put down at the table all the time at the dinner table.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Really.

[Frank Smiley]

And so when you expound my, you know, my father's learned man, you know, and how could I, you know, match him? So I kind of feel that way. When you go on about wines or how things are pronounced in ancient Greece.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You know what? I did not know that that felt insulting to you. What would make it better for you?

[Frank Smiley]

Maybe ask me if I want to hear what you have to say.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

There's a plan. That would be good.

[Frank Smiley]

Okay.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

If you want feedback, maybe, or something like.

[Frank Smiley]

If you want. If you want to expound about something, ask me if I want to hear it.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay.

[Frank Smiley]

If I want to hear it, then, you know, Great.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Okay. Sounds like, though, if I'm seeing something, for example, a patch of beer that you haven't shaved. Okay.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

And it kind of grates me just a little bit. So should I point out I hate authority? So when I point that out, I feel like an authority to you. Which authority? Who would say that?

[Jordan Schlansky]

My father.

[Frank Smiley]

My father, the great microbiologist.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Oh, no. So I remind you of your father? Oh, my God. That's terrible.

[Jordan Schlansky]

He once threw a cyclotron at me. Go get her.

[Frank Smiley]

No, I really think you're saying that that's really great.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

I don't want to be like your father. I really don't.

[Frank Smiley]

Okay?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Because I know on some level, you hate your father.

[Conan O'Brien]

What?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I don't hate my father. I love my father. My father's a great guy and I respect him. I love him. He threw those test tubes at me for a reason. I was acting up. This is on me. It wasn't my dad. I was way out of line. Dad, I'm sorry. I think we should try it right now.

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan Schlansky]

So, Jordan, why don't you try and talk to me the same way that these two just talked?

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay. Let's try it. Okay. Yes. I am sorry if I have reminded you of your father. I'm sorry if I have brought you back to painful moments in your childhood when I've told you how to pronounce Ralph Macchiat's name.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's Macchiato.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, it's Malky. I am sorry if some of my information sharing has been offensive. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And incorrect.

[Conan O'Brien]

I may have made mistakes like any other human being. I don't know. That's a reason to discount my entire credibility going forward. I will make an attempt. If I notice a large patch of hair on your face that you miss shaving, I will make an attempt to tell you privately as per your request.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Thank you.

[Conan O'Brien]

Also, I will ask you if I have something to share that's relevant to what we're speaking about. Some facts, Latin, origins of words or other etymology. I will ask you first, do you want to hear what I have to say?

[Jordan Schlansky]

I don't want to ever.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, it'll depend on the context.

[Jordan Schlansky]

No, it doesn't. I'd never want to hear that stuff ever.

[Conan O'Brien]

If you pronounce.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Take it in, Jordan.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Jordan, take it in. I never want.

[Conan O'Brien]

You never want to hear.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I never want to hear it.

[Conan O'Brien]

I should not even ask.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Exactly.

[Conan O'Brien]

I see.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah, I. There's no, like. Well, it depends on the moment all.

[Conan O'Brien]

This information I have just. Just goes to waste.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah, it mostly. It's. It's mostly shit. It's not good. And I'm sorry. Listen, I'm sorry. That seemed harsh. Julie, I'm sorry. It's not factually correct, most of it. And I think you're just shooting from the hip, so. No, I don't need to hear it. I can always. And trust me, I have. There are phones. You can look up everything you need to know right now. And. And it will tell me.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Right, Jordan?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Let me ask you something.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Why is it so important to you to correct Conan? What's that about?

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you. That is a very valid question. You see, I honestly don't look at it as correcting. I look at it as sharing information. Let's come out of this. Let's come out of this as enhanced human beings.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Jordan.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

What you're doing is saying, conan, you're wrong, I'm right, and it becomes a win lose thing. He has to lose. You get to win.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Does that, Is that fulfilling to you? Does that bring you emotionally closer to him?

[Conan O'Brien]

I'd like to think that over time we have built up a foundation of love and understanding to the point where we can exchange information and not have it necessarily interpreted as hostile.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

But that's not how he thinks about it.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

It's not a sharing of information.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's not. I see your face and I just Want to smash it.

[Conan O'Brien]

I've learned. I've learned today. I've learned that you're in pain. And now I understand why. And I will envision you as a helpless child competing with other siblings and your father's high profile job. I will envision you. I will envision you doubting your own self worth. Yes. Well, this way I understand his pain and his vulnerabilities. His weakness, if you will.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Really?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Can you actually express empathy for him rather than.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Do you know what empathy is?

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

Infantilizing him. Don't infantilize him.

[Conan O'Brien]

I can imagine. I put myself in his situation. Okay. He's got a lot of siblings. Now look at his father. This is also a different thing.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I want to clear up one thing just so there's no love. My dad. Dad. Not the problem, not the issue. Let's talk. My brother Neil, man. And Neil, if you're listening, and I know he's a listener, he used to. He was older than me and he would sit on top of me and I couldn't move and he would laugh and. Yeah, he would laugh that some would.

[Conan O'Brien]

Say healthy sibling interaction.

[Jordan Schlansky]

He did it two years ago when I visited.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You know, and you know, I had to call the police. Neil, if you're listening, that really got my goat. My father. Great man. Great man. And very lovely and a sweet man. There's some issues. Everyone has issues with their father and their mother. Father. Of course they do.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay.

[Jordan Schlansky]

But listen, I won't have my father slandered on this show. Never again.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm not. I don't intend to slander your father nor any O'Brien's, Neil, Justin, Kate, Shane, any of them.

[Jordan Schlansky]

You know them all.

[Dr. John Gottman]

They're good at predicting whether a relationship is going to last.

[Jordan Schlansky]

What are your predictions, John?

[Frank Smiley]

Well, one of the things that I think needs to happen in this relationship is for you guys to recognize how indispensable you've been to one another these almost 30 years. And that you're not replaceable.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Can I just point out I think I'm not replaceable. Sort of a once in a hundred year talent. Like a Halley's comet, if you will.

[Conan O'Brien]

In comedy, I think it's 76 years. Haley's. Oh, excuse me. I have information about Halley's comet. Would you like to hear it?

[Jordan Schlansky]

And my point is, I think of you as, you know, an IKEA trundle bed. You know that? Okay, this one broke. I'll get another one.

[Frank Smiley]

Right, right.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You asked for a prediction. You're never gonna fire him.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Wow.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

And that's because this has been going on for three decades. If you were gonna fire him, you would have fired him 25 years ago.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I actually think I did, but he just kept showing up.

[Frank Smiley]

You didn't notice it?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yeah, he didn't notice it. And then he controls the paperwork, so he probably just gave himself.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

So let me say one other thing. May I? In terms of prediction.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Sure.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

So you guys bicker and banter back and forth. Lots of criticism, lots of contempt. Nobody's being vulnerable. You're not. Jordan, you're not either. But the rewards for not being serious and vulnerable are too big for you guys to want to change the relationship. The rewards of success, of money, of followers.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yes. I mean, and to be fair, especially with the money part, that's mostly goes to me like, it's. I am. You know, this is just another thing. I don't know that you see a lot of money from this. No, no, I don't, but I. You know, I mean, I haven't seen your house, but mine's just. It's insane.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, we're not equal. Of course. You are superior and I am inferior.

[Jordan Schlansky]

As 11 of your houses would go into my house. And we might do that as a bit.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

You know what I would love for you guys? I would love to hear someday on your show, you know what? Conan is really brilliant. Yeah. Jordan is really brilliant, too. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, yes, I'd love to.

[Frank Smiley]

In lieu of that, have copy of our book.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

That's right. No way. Is that the right one? Yes, it is.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It is.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you so much.

[Jordan Schlansky]

I was told this was an erotic novel. What's going on here? This is actually. I want to thank you very much and my eternal thanks to the Gottmans.

[Dr. John Gottman]

And their book is called Fight How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection.

[Jordan Schlansky]

It's available now.

[Conan O'Brien]

Beautiful cover.

[Frank Smiley]

Thank you, Frank.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And our job. Jordan, we're both going to read this book, and. And I would actually like to hit you with this. So that might be the way that I use it, but thank you for.

[Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman]

No, that's Neil. You want to hit Neil?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Well, he's really strong. It might hit back. I want to thank you both very much. This was. You both are all joking aside, very good at what you do.

[Frank Smiley]

It's been a pleasure.

[Jordan Schlansky]

We just may be a lost cause, but thank you. Thank you so much.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you so much.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And that's been this very. Just fascinating for me episode of the Conan and Jordan Show. And thank you for tuning in. And we'll see you next time.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Conan and Jordan show with Conan O'Brien and and Jordan Schlansky is produced by me, Frank Smiley executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross and Jim McClure engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez. Our supervising producer is Andrew Gruse Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Bautista and Brit Kahn. The theme song is Tom Sawyer by Rush. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan and Jordan? Call the team Coco Hotline [phone] and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. And be sure to subscribe and tune into Conan O'Brien radio channel 104 on SiriusXM.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Hey, I'm Paul Scheer.

[Conan O'Brien]

I'm June Diane Rayfield. And I'm Jason Manzoukas.

[Jordan Schlansky]

And we're the hosts of how did this Get Made?

[Conan O'Brien]

A comedy podcast where we deconstruct, make fun of and celebrate the best worst movies ever made. Have you ever seen a movie that's so bad that it's actually good? That's what we're talking about.

[Unknown]

From blockbuster franchises and made for TV.

[Conan O'Brien]

Romances to bonkers 80s action flicks and obscure sci fi musicals, we cover it all. You can find. How did this get made? Wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Idiot. All set for your flight?

[Jordan Schlansky]

Yep, I've got everything I need.

[Conan O'Brien]

Eye mask, neck pillow, T mobile headphones.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Wait, T Mobile? You bet.

[Conan O'Brien]

Free in flight Wi Fi, 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T Mobile Mobile.

[Jordan Schlansky]

Same goes from a water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. I'm going to leave you to it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Find out how you can experience travel [e-mail] Travel qualifying plan required. WiFi were available on select US airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Terms and conditions apply.