Reginald Betts (2:37)

Yeah, that one's not as impressive. Think that was the bane of my existence. But I think you live and learn. And for me, you know, picking up a gun was the most crazy, volatile, violent thing I've ever done in my life. Yep. And. And nobody tells you that you could do something at 16 that'll change your life forever. You know, as many teachers that used to sell me, you know, I. I would end up in jail or I could end up in dead, because I went. I lived in a bad neighborhood, so to speak.

Conan O'Brien (3:04)

Right.

Reginald Betts (3:05)

I didn't even really understand that I could change my life forever. And I did. I changed my life forever. So that's the kind of devastating thing about it, is recognizing that I changed my life forever.

Conan O'Brien (3:16)

Well, there's so much to. People like to say unpack here, but there's so much to talk about you. As far as I know, you spent a lot of time in solitary when you were in prison, and while you're in solitary, you discovered books. Is that correct?

Reginald Betts (3:40)

Yeah, I did. I did two years off and on in solitary. But the thing that's really remarkable is I'm 18 years old, 17 years old, I'm in a hole, and they took all of your books from me. And the thing is, 24 hours in a cell with just four walls, not as beautifully decorated as the walls around me.

Conan O'Brien (3:57)

Yeah, I'm gonna say you find yourself. That's some impressive art. Yeah.

Reginald Betts (4:04)

And I was unraveling, and I heard a guy call out for a book. And I realized that these dudes had created an underground library for themselves. And all you had to do is call out for a book, and they would send you one. And so I said, hey, yo, send me a book. And they sent me this anthology called the Black Poets. And that introduced me to Robert Hayden, Lucille Clifton, Sonia Sanchez, Langston Hughes, Sterling Brown, Etheridge Knight. And I'm reading these words, and I realized that these poets were able to capture an entire Life in 14 lines.

Conan O'Brien (4:36)

Yeah.

Reginald Betts (4:36)

And I remember buying two books. This is the first books I bought with my money. It was a Sonia Sanchez book called Under a Soprano sky. And with Sun Tzu's the Art of War. Yeah. Now I was. I was. I was trying to survive prison. I was 5. 5 and £120.

Conan O'Brien (4:52)

Oh, my God.

Reginald Betts (4:53)

Of those two books, I read Sonia Sanchez's book a hundred times, and I never really. I never finished reading the Art of War because I learned the real way to survive prison ended up being love. It ended up being the exact antithesis of what had gotten most of us in prison. Because I think the antithesis of love is violence. And so it was Sonia Sanchez's Undisprano sky that became a part of the pathway of me learning to love myself, but also in learning to love myself, me learning to understand that we had did horrendous things to land ourselves in prison, but that we could be more than those things. And I've spent my entire life since then trying to prove that to be true.

Conan O'Brien (5:38)

I'm curious, had you been at all interested or intrigued by books or even the idea of getting around to books before you went to prison?

Reginald Betts (5:52)

You know, the last book that I read, so my local library said, Mr. Betts, we understand you're still in prison, but we need you to return this book that you checked out. And it was the Evelyn woods but. But you wouldn't believe what book it was. It was the Evelyn Woods Guide to Speed Reading. See, I've always been obsessed with infomercials, right? And they would have those infomercials on how to speed read. And I was just like my mom. My mom wouldn't let me, but she didn't believe that this guy could read, you know, a thousand words a minute. When he was flipping the pages. My mom said, he's just flipping the pages?

Conan O'Brien (6:27)

Yeah.

Reginald Betts (6:27)

I said, no, he's reading. Listen to this. And so I went to the library and I found that Evelyn woods book, and I checked it out, and I still remember the tips that was in it. So I've always been fascinated with reading. I've always wanted to be a reader. My mom refused to let anybody tell me that hardback books came out first so that she could keep giving me the old paperback books of, like, books I hadn't read yet, as if they were new. She'd be like, Walter Moses. New book just came out. Book came out three years ago, you know. And so what prison did was like, honestly, the judge said to me, I'm under no illusion that sending you to prison will help, but you can get something out of it if you try to, right? And I never forgot what he told me. And I just had to lean into what I cared about. And I asked myself, what will you be when you leave prison? I mean, you 16 now? What are you going to train yourself to be while in here? And I told myself I would be a writer because the only thing that I could name myself as loving in that way, outside of my mom, was books. And I needed to love something that I believe might save me. And so I decided to lean into the love of books.

Conan O'Brien (7:36)

That's. I mean, it's kind of stunning to me that you wouldn't encourage people to read who are incarcerated. And, you know, supposedly the concept behind the penal system is for people to better themselves and reform and grow. And so I'm amazed That books are denied to people in solitary. And that's a new concept to me because I would think you want people to read, you want people to build their minds. And the fact that you had to kind of do it secretly is kind of surprising to me.

Reginald Betts (8:21)

Yeah. But you know, to the credit of the Department of Corrections around this country, I think that they've improved and changed a lot.

Conan O'Brien (8:27)

Yep.

Reginald Betts (8:28)

My, my biggest supporters are the Department of Corrections. Our first freedom library was in Angola, out 1A and 1B Angola and MCI Norfolk, where Malcolm X did sign. And you gotta understand that there's work that we've done open at 600 libraries across the country. Prisons in 14, 15 states, about 50 different prisons. That doesn't happen without the Department of Corrections and the senior leadership in the Department of Corrections and the line CEOs cos all saying we believe in books, we believe in literature. And we both, I mean we bring 100 pound bookcases and put them in cell blocks that have never had anything but plastic and metal and steel. We bring 500 brand new books into the lives of people who, many of whom have never seen a brand new book, have never smelled a brand new book. I mean, you know, it's about work that I do, but with all due respect, it's like the most humbling, you know, awe inspiring thing I've been a part of of. Because to be a part of it is, is to literally watch how an invention that dates back hundreds of years, the Gutenberg printing press actually is still the conduit for people to have access to the world. If we first imagine a printing press would get them access to. Yeah, yeah, it is, it's cool.

Conan O'Brien (9:51)

Well, I mean, it's beyond cool. I want to make sure, I stress this, you get out of prison, you go to Yale Law School and you have founded something called Freedom Reads. It's an organization that gives incarcerated people access to books. And you guys have, as you said, opened somewhere around 500 libraries across about 45 prisons in 14 states. And this is going to have an enormous impact. I'm sure it already has. But I do think that exposing people to books and giving them the chance to better themselves and find actually the love. It's not like eating your spinach. The love of books and the possibilities opened by books, that's a massive thing that you've done. It's huge. I know you're a humble person, but it's incredible. You had this great misfortune when you were 16 years old and you've, you know, this is a massive contribution you've made. I cannot tell you how impressed I am by what you've done.

Reginald Betts (11:01)

I appreciate that. And, you know, we have seven, eight people to workforce out of our team of 22 serve time in prison anywhere from 18 months to 30 years. And for each of us, you know, books played a profound role in us reshaping our lives. And so I love the fact that I feel like it's, remember, I got a ball head. But you remember, I'm not just a client. I'm not just a president. I'm a client, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Conan O'Brien (11:29)

The Hair Club for Men. Sy Sperling. Cy Sperling would end his commercials. It was a spray, I think, that you could put on your bald spot. And he would say, I'm not just a satisfied, you know, I'm not just the president, I'm a client. And then he would reveal.

Reginald Betts (11:44)

Yeah, this is like. I feel like I just. I carry books around with me everywhere to be like, we. I just don't talk about this. I got a book in my bag. You know, we tell people that we keep books because books are the talisman that would have kept us safe when we chose to pick up pistols. Yeah, books were the talisman that would have kept us safe instead of the pistols that caused more harm.

Conan O'Brien (12:04)

Yeah, the. Did you know when you were getting out of. Did you have a plan when your sentence is coming to an end? Did you have a. A clear goal then? I am going to get this higher education? Or was it something that unfolded gradually after you got out?

Reginald Betts (12:26)

No, I mean, I was just talking to somebody a few minutes ago about adhd. And one of the real blessings in my life is that I have horrible adhd, which means I've never had a plan in my life. And the reality is, you go to prison at 16, if you're a person that operates on a plan, you might have a hard time. I've literally never had a plan. I've kind of just moved through this world with a hope and a desire to be better than I was when I committed that crime. And a curiosity and an openness. And so I ended up in law school because I was struggling to get jobs that would support me. And I ended up representing friends of mine. And I got five people out of prison that I did time with because once I went to law school, they were like, well, Dwayne, you're a lawyer. Can you. Can you help with my case? I started Freedom Reads because a friend and a supporter who also works for the Melon foundation had asked me what would I do for people in prison if money wasn't an issue. And I said, we put millions of people in prison. I will put a million books in prison. And she said, how? And I said, one library at a time. And with that phrase, I started making up freedom. Re. I started making up. The organization has had a profound change in my life. This is the first job that I've had since 2006, because I've essentially been a student and an independent writer and performer, you know, from 2006 until now. And now I run an organization with a multimillion dollar budget, 20 people that work under me. I mean, it's been amazing, but I would be lying to you if I pretended like this was a part of a plan. I think the only plan I've had was trust.

Conan O'Brien (14:05)

That's well said. Yeah, I mean that. But that's true of. That's true of a lot of people. I know it's true. In my case, I can't say I had a plan. I just kind of followed my passion. And. And it was always news to me, like, I didn't know where it was gonna lead. I didn't know where I was gonna go. I'm sure I took a lot of missteps along the way. But you. You know, I think that's a good message to get out there, is that it's not people saying, okay, this is exactly what I'm gonna do, and here are the steps. There's a jazz quality to it where you're just playing what you feel. And if you trust and you're leading with that kind of positive energy and you marry it to a work ethic, things happen. And you're proof of that. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Reginald Betts (14:58)

Thank you.

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Reginald Betts (15:08)

They're calling this a battle for the fans.

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Reginald Betts (15:17)

It is an honor to share.

Conan O'Brien (15:19)

No, it's our honor.

Reginald Betts (15:20)

It is our larger honor.

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Reginald Betts (15:27)

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Conan O'Brien (16:33)

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Reginald Betts (16:46)

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Conan O'Brien (16:49)

And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. You talk about the smell of new books. I've been kicked out of bookstores because I just go and smell them. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Commercial Announcer (17:18)

Like you open them and smell them.

Conan O'Brien (17:19)

I open them and I standing by

Commercial Announcer (17:21)

the bookshelf, sniffing the.

Conan O'Brien (17:23)

No, I open them and I smell them.

Commercial Announcer (17:25)

Okay.

Conan O'Brien (17:25)

And I guess it's a perversion.

Reginald Betts (17:31)

Are people holding. Only if you don't buy the books, Though if you buy a couple of the books, the people at the bookstore, they be delighted. You know, you just gotta buy. You just gotta buy two or three,

Conan O'Brien (17:41)

you know, I'm gonna tell you something, Reginald. I'm a sniff and runner. I get a good deep sniff and then I run. And I'm wearing a raincoat when I do it.

Reginald Betts (17:55)

The sniff and sprint.

Conan O'Brien (17:56)

Yeah, yeah. Sniff and sprint on the ye. Yeah. And there's my pictures up in a lot of bookstores around the country.

Reginald Betts (18:04)

They'd be like, yo. They'd be like, who was in the section with the books? With a Reader's Digest from the early 20th century. Oh, that's Conan's favorite section.

Conan O'Brien (18:16)

Have you seen this man? Hey, it's 100 degrees out and it's a sunny day. Why you wearing a raincoat? That's my business. Look, Reginald, I'm a creep. And you knew that when you contacted me.

Commercial Announcer (18:30)

Us.

Conan O'Brien (18:30)

So this is on. This is all on you. But I also think that you know, a Lot of us have bad. Make bad mistakes. When we're around 16 years old, we don't have. I wouldn't have had access to any. You know, I wouldn't have known where to get a gun or. But so there's a. You know, there's a quality to some of it which is like, yeah, mistakes. Usually people make mistakes, bad mistakes, when they're in those teenage years. That's when they do it. And then, you know, I'm very aware that I was incredibly fortunate to be in a situation where my bad impulses couldn't get much worse. Cause I'm living in a very stable kind of environment. Do you know what I mean? And I wouldn't have known where to get a gun, frankly. And I used to ask people, how do I get a gun? You know, I did just. Why?

Reginald Betts (19:30)

My. My. My sons. Yeah, because, you know, makes you cool. I mean, somebody asked me once. Yes, I had no idea.

Conan O'Brien (19:37)

I'm going to disagree with you. Me with a gun does not look cool.

Reginald Betts (19:42)

I don't think it would do that. No.

Conan O'Brien (19:46)

I look like a frightened old woman who found a gun, is wondering where to return it.

Reginald Betts (19:52)

The crazy thing about it, though, is, is I. I deeply believe it. So, like, I. Even as a kid, I really had no access to guns. Yeah, I could pretend that I did, but I didn't. And then this one day, I did. But I think about my son's life, and they have never seen a fight before, you know. And so some of it, I think about how radically different the life that I've been able to provide for my sons have been because they haven't seen the kind of violence that my childhood would steep them. Even if I didn't grow up in the worst neighborhood. I didn't grow up in the worst neighborhood, but I got beat up more. I got beat up, you know, at least 15 times. How many fingers do we have? Fingers and toes. I was, you know, I spent my childhood on the ropes. You know, I mean, they used to call me Glass Joe. That's. That's a joke. See, coding got me trying to be a comedian now, because this is the first time that I've been around somebody truly funny.

Conan O'Brien (20:39)

But wait, so where did you grow up? Where? Where. Where did you grow up?

Reginald Betts (20:44)

Right. Right outside of D.C. in PG County, Maryland. Yeah.

Conan O'Brien (20:47)

Okay. So.

Reginald Betts (20:49)

Which had the benefit of, like, the nation's capital and you could see everything. And my mom had a great government job, but it also had the poverty and in the sense of being a black belt, being, like, right outside of the center of everything, but literally right outside of the center of it. I was the first person in my family to go to college and the first person to graduate from prison. And that's not supposed to be a potential reality of somebody growing up in the 80s and the 90s. That's not supposed to be the landscape of what it means to, you know, be an American citizen.

Conan O'Brien (21:23)

But.

Reginald Betts (21:23)

But it literally was my. My perspective.

Conan O'Brien (21:27)

Yeah. What do you. What do you credit? Because there have been many people, obviously, that have been in your situation and not had this spectacular turnaround where. Who do you credit or what do you credit? This ability to turn this massive negative into a positive and to, as you sort of say, pursue love and understanding and acceptance. Where did that come from?

Reginald Betts (21:58)

I'm gonna go ahead and credit my mom, and I'm gonna credit my mom for two reasons. First, you know, on the front end, she forgave me. And. And I didn't. She didn't make me beat myself up. She just accepted that I was better than that. And she had to accept it on. On faith. You know, she had to really believe that I was better than the crime that I committed. Yeah. And convey that to me in such a way that I could believe that I was better. And so I credit my mom. And then she put money behind her belief. I took a paralegal course in prison. She paid for it. You know, I was buying those books in prison. She sent me the money for it. So I'll credit that. And I will also credit. Every time somebody was honest with me, the judge was honest with me. He told me, I'm under no illusion that sending you to prison will help, but you can't get something out of it. And it was a challenge, as well as just being a statement that you 16 and everybody else is going to tell you how little power you have, how small you are, how violent prison is, I'm going to tell you you could get something out of it if you want. And I think that I've always had this attitude. Once I went to prison and felt like I was. I have sink to rock bottom that I could be who I say I am. And I have just sort of committed myself and dedicated myself in a single way to doing that. And then I also say the last thing is that because I spent so much time in prison, I was able to become an auto d that. That was able to pursue and chase my interests, and I was able to learn a lot about things that I thought were completely unrelated until they became related.

Conan O'Brien (23:34)

Yeah.

Reginald Betts (23:35)

Like who would have known me maneuvering around the Department of Corrections and around CEOs and around Wardens would be the skill set that I needed 20 years later, when I'm starting an organization that demands that I not look at CEOs and wardens as my enemies.

Conan O'Brien (23:50)

Yeah.

Reginald Betts (23:51)

You know, I had to choose in prison that they weren't my enemy. And that's why it's easy for me to do it now. I had to choose in prison that I had a story that needed to be bigger than me being a felon, so that the CEOs had to have a story that was bigger than them being a CEO. And so it was all of these small things that actually built a set of skills that people trusted me to deploy in a way that matters. But honestly, I'm just here for the ride. And I could say that I wouldn't have guessed any of this when I was 16. I wouldn't even have guessed that I would survive prison.

Conan O'Brien (24:24)

Yeah.

Reginald Betts (24:25)

But I don't think I would trade anything for the journey.

Conan O'Brien (24:28)

Well, Reginald, you are an incredibly inspiring person, a really impressive person. Honored to get to talk to you seriously. And you're doing something that's huge, really is huge. Very few people can say they've had this kind of impact that you're going to have on all these lives. And so I'm, you know, could not be happier to talk to you. And if you have a question for me, sometimes people call and they have a question. You may not have a question for me. You know, I do.

Reginald Betts (25:00)

I got one. And I say, I wrote you myself, like two o' clock in the morning, you know, when I was like, man, I would love to be on this show. And I mean, it is one of those things, though. It was like, somebody will read this, and out of everything that I've done, I really jump out the window like that. But two o' clock in the morning, I sent that email out, and the question I have now is we all say books change our lives, but we live different reading lives. I wonder what book changed your life or what book you really remember from your 20s.

Conan O'Brien (25:31)

Wow. I remember there's this book, I think I've mentioned it before, by a writer named Shara called the Killer Angels. And it's about the Civil War Battle of Gettysburg. And it's written. It's fiction. I mean, it's written like fiction, historical fiction, but it's very beautifully written. And I read this book and I just became obsessed with it. And I had already been a fan of history, but I read this book, and I've gone back and read it many times since, and it's just kind of a beautiful, very accurate account of not only what happened, but the kinds of personalities that were involved. And it just brought what could have been a really dry historical account to life. And I realized you can do that with anything. Do you know what I mean? Any story can be told in a very dry, boring way. Or if you've got a really talented writer and storyteller, they can tell it in an amazing way. And that book was really powerful for me. Really powerful.

Reginald Betts (26:43)

See, look, I'mma tell you. You won't even believe this. This is such a great question. That's such a great answer. My son's birthday is the Gettysburg is the date of the Gettysburg Address.

Conan O'Brien (26:54)

Oh, wow.

Reginald Betts (26:54)

That was my oldest son's birthday, November 19th. Well, you know what I'm saying?

Conan O'Brien (26:59)

Get the killer angels.

Reginald Betts (27:00)

This is.

Conan O'Brien (27:00)

Get the killer angels. You're going to read it. It's just a great book. And if it was just fiction and wasn't about how the battle really unfolded, it's just filled with amazing characters. It's so well done. I think Shara died shortly after he wrote it. He died young, but it's just fantastic.

Reginald Betts (27:23)

It's going in the library. Yeah, I'm putting it in the Freedom Library. From now on, it's going to be in a Freedom Library. This is a great new addition.

Conan O'Brien (27:30)

Hey, let me ask you a question. How did people. How do people donate? Is there a way that people can donate to this cause?

Reginald Betts (27:38)

Yeah, they should go to the website. Freedom Reads. F R E E D O M R E A D S O R G and they can donate right at the website.

Conan O'Brien (27:47)

I think that. I mean, I know I'm going to want to make a donation and I'm going to make David make a donation, of course.

Reginald Betts (27:56)

With your credit card.

Conan O'Brien (27:57)

With my credit card. But no, I love what you're doing. I love your message. I love your energy, your positivity, your sweetness. I mean, you know, you're one of those people. I get despairing sometimes about all the stuff that's happening in the world. And then I meet someone like you and I think, we're gonna be all right. So. But then I go back to drinking and book sniffing. God, I'm leaving this interview right now and I'm gonna.

Reginald Betts (28:30)

Oh, you're ending it on book sniffing.

Conan O'Brien (28:32)

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna end it so I can get to. There's a. There's a bookstore just down the street. I'm gonna put on my, put on my, put on my bathrobe and go rushing in there. You're your book sniffing my book sniffing robe. Yeah.

Reginald Betts (28:47)

Hey, Reginald, ask you what book have you smelled lately? Oh, my. God.

Conan O'Brien (28:55)

Well, I don't want to go into that. Let's just say it was about. It was about Churchill. That's all you need to know. Hey, Reginald, be well. Keep doing what you're doing. I hope we get to meet in person someday because I'd be honored to shake your hand.

Reginald Betts (29:10)

Really, I would be honored to meet you in person. Thank you so much. And everybody else, man, the whole team has been lovely from the first interview to now. It's been amazing.

Conan O'Brien (29:19)

Well, I got to let them all go today, but getting some AI in here to replace them. All right, take care, Reginald. Bye.

Reginald Betts (29:28)

Take care, guys. Conan o' Brien needs a fan With Conan o' Brien, Sonam of Session and Matt Gourley Produced by me, Matt Gourley Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross and Nick Leow Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino Take it away, Jimmy. Supervising producer Aaron Blair Associate talent Producer Jennifer Samples Associate producers Sean Doherty and Lisa Berm Engineering by Eduardo Perez get three free months of Sirius XM when you sign up@siriusxm.com Conan please rate, review and subscribe to Conan O' Brien needs a fan. Wherever fine podcasts are downloaded,

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