A (2:27)

Like you're not even in the realm.

B (2:28)

Of trying to be a parent yet. Yeah, I've always loved kids and babies though. Still do. So that was definitely a fun job. And so in that role, I was an editorial assistant and I did everything from interviewing to fact checking to writing. So it was a great, just kind of all encompassing introductory role.

A (2:45)

Yeah. That teaches you everything.

B (2:47)

Yes. And it's funny too because so this was in 2014 and I am so glad I had that like in office magazine experience. One of my favorite shows was the Bold Type when that was on air and it just.

A (2:58)

Oh my God, I love the Bold Type.

B (3:00)

So I felt like I was so good, like one of those shows at the time.

A (3:04)

I mean. Yeah. Also the City. Did you watch that?

B (3:07)

You know, I did with Whitney Port.

A (3:09)

It was an auction of the Hills.

B (3:10)

Younger with Hilary Duff and Sutton Foster. And like all of those shows kind of at that time were, you know, like young girl working in journalism.

A (3:18)

And it was the coolest thing you could possibly. The coolest job you could possibly have.

B (3:22)

So I did that and then I took kind of an interesting path. So I had always again, cause I was on the student newspaper and when I was on the paper I only covered news. So I was the editor of the news section and then the editor in chief and so features, which is really what I do now. That was like never. That was always kind of like too soft for me at the time. I was always like kind of stirring the pot, kind of hard hitting journalism. Yeah, like, definitely was kind of looking for, like to, you know, kind of shake things up a little bit with the stories I was covering. And definitely got some like not nice letters from like faculty and you know, like kind of like that Gilmore Girls episode where she writes like a bad review of the show and a student gets mad. You know, it was kind of that type of thing sometimes, not always. I mean, I love.

A (4:09)

But you have power in that position.

B (4:11)

Totally. And so I really enjoyed kind of like these harder hitting news stories. Never would have thought I would end up doing features, but which I mean, I love, like it's great. I absolutely love my job. Yeah, of course it just all goes to show, like you never really know where. Where you're gonna end up, I think, when you're starting out. And so after that American Baby job, again, I had loved the reporting I did in college and I thought, you know, maybe I want to study higher education because I loved writing about all these issues in higher education. So that's kind of where I was going with really diving deep into like these things going on and with departments. And so I ended up applying for a master's degree in higher education. And I did a program that was one year and that was down in Philly. So I moved there for a year. And I still always like enjoyed reading design blogs at that time and decorating my studio apartment that I lived in on campus. And you know, so design has always been a passion since I was a teenager. I would say maybe even younger. But it just that kind of like went on pause while I was in those early years.

A (5:17)

Well, you didn't know you were prepping yourself.

B (5:19)

Yeah. For your adventure. I love to like have my classmates over for things in my apartment. And it was always cute and I was always doing like Facebook marketplace. Wasn't really big quite yet, but I was always doing like craigslist pickups and you know, pre Craigslist killer.

A (5:33)

We were really on that.

B (5:34)

Yeah. So like in Philadelphia had like a bunch of really cool like secondhand things going on. So I was always like just really into that. But it was not something I ever thought would be part of my job. So then after that program, I worked at a university in alumni relations and in the fundraising department as well for three and a half years. And I was. Oh wow. Yeah. So I was in a business school and then I moved over to the engineering school and just was working with alumni and did communications for the alumni like newsletter, planning events, a whole bunch of different things.

A (6:07)

Did you like that?

B (6:09)

I did, yeah. And I honestly feel like so much of it I still reference in my job now. And the thing about that job too is I would say for like the world of higher education, it was a pretty corporate role.

A (6:21)

Oh, interesting.

B (6:22)

Like I was dressed up very much every day. You were taking people out to meetings, you were, you know, sending memos to go up the chain to like the dean of the school and you know, so like really learning like how to send a good email, how to email someone's assistant to get them on the phone, how to, you know, remember facts about someone. And so now, I mean, whether I'm interviewing like a high net worth person for an ARC digest story, or I'm just kind of trying to pitch myself to someone. I think it's great to know how to like go through someone's assistant, how to get in front of them.

A (6:55)

Absolutely. You know, like that is such so valuable. Yeah.

B (6:58)

And to say, okay, I'm going to need this from John by End of day Friday. Please make sure, you know, and just kind of like, funnel stuff. So, yeah, so I did enjoy that. It just wasn't super creative. There were a lot of other things that I learned, but I was also doing a little design blog on the side and starting my Instagram and doing all of that outside of work, too. And that was something I started after my ministry.

A (7:21)

That's a lot. That's a big undertaking to do both.

B (7:23)

Of them, But I just enjoyed it. I mean, and I would do almost a post every day some days, but I really enjoyed doing that. And there were a bunch of other women in D.C. around my age who had blogs, too, at that time, and a lot of them are still friends of mine.

A (7:36)

So, yeah, blogs were major.

B (7:38)

Yeah. Because this was, like, 2016. So this was like blog Instagram, like the cute coffee mug from Target with the flowers. You know, like, just like those little Instagram vignettes that everyone would post.

A (7:50)

Absolutely.

B (7:50)

Yeah. So then I was working in higher ed, and I started to freelance on the side because what had happened with a lot of the girls I'd interned with in college and, like, worked with right out of college were moving up. The people who'd stayed in New York and they needed people to intern for their publications or. Sorry. To contribute to their publications.

A (8:09)

Sure.

B (8:10)

So I ended up doing a bunch of freelance writing for people who I'd known from my time there, which was great. And I ended up kind of following them around where they went, and got a lot of work that way. And so I loved where I was. And I think right before COVID I was kind of in this interesting position where I had gotten a promotion at work, but I also was taking on a lot of freelance. And so I was in this, like, sweet spot of, okay, this is the best of both worlds. But if I were to go more so in one of these two directions, I'd have to, like, let something go.

A (8:44)

Yeah, you're gonna break. You're at the even point. But it can only stay even for so long.

B (8:48)

Yes. And so that was like, fall 2019. But I was just sort of like, you know what? Let's just, like, enjoy this for now. Like, I had a great social life. I had this great job. I had this great side thing. Then Covid happened, and a lot of that changed, and I really was totally isolated. I was living alone. I really spent all of COVID alone. And my job, thankfully, I still had. But it slowed down a lot because I was doing a lot of events and, you know, things that we Moved over to Zoom. And so I had a lot more time and was able to freelance a lot more. And my boss in my day job was wonderful. She would share my articles on her personal Facebook. I mean, so supportive. Yeah, she was lovely.

A (9:29)

That's incredible.

B (9:30)

Yeah. And so I was able to do both, but it definitely got to a point where, I mean, as you know, anyone with disposable income was spending it on their home, so the home industry was booming. And I'm so fortunate. Yeah. Aligned with, like, kind of when I was really starting to build this career, because I was able to get a lot of work during 2020 and 2021.

A (9:50)

Me, too. That's when my career took off as well.

B (9:52)

Yeah. I mean, and it's like, looking back there, so many things that are so sad and just such a bummer about that time, to put it lightly. But, I mean, I just mean even in my own life. But I think it's, like, wonderful that this was such a light. I mean, and I really fell in love with freelancing during that time.

A (10:11)

I think design is forever changed from COVID truly. Like, I think it made such a big impact that we don't even fully know the reverberations yet.

B (10:21)

Yeah.

A (10:22)

And I'm sure that's for most industries, but really for ours, I feel like people's became, if not their biggest priority, one of their biggest priorities in that moment. And then we were able to sort of move in at the right time. And, I mean, timing's everything.

B (10:37)

Well, and as you know, I like to do a lot of my own projects, too. So that was a really fun time. Like, even though I was living alone and very isolated, I was, like, shooting. My photographer would come over and we'd put on masks and, like, shoot together. And, you know, so I was still able to create things and write about them in my own home that way. And I would do some, like, local news segments via Zoom. And so I very much was able to engage. But so basically, I, you know, there wasn't any one thing that made me want to leave my job. I enjoyed it. I just was not able to handle both anymore. And I kind of felt too, like, if this is how this is during COVID and I'm not seeing anyone, I'm not traveling, I'm not, you know, any of these things. I'm not going to be able to handle this when this period is over. So that made it very clear, because I do think, like, I kind of tell people, like, don't burn yourself out, but do try to do both for as long as you possibly can. Because I think it's so much. Yeah, I think it's so much better to go full time or go out on your own when your business is already doing well than to wake up and say, oh, now I need to make my website. You know, like, just have that all going already.

A (11:45)

I think you're right. It's so much easier to be able to have a foundation to jump to. I mean, because then I think too.

B (11:53)

Like, when people knew that I was full time, then even more work came in because they were like, oh, she already was doing so much.

A (11:59)

Finally has time. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

B (12:01)

And so that was great. So I ended up putting in my notice at work, and it ended up being a month instead of two weeks, which was. I was, like, so ready to go. And just because I was so burned, I'm sure. But, you know, I was like, okay, I'll take the benefits for four more weeks and kind of just like, I mean, yeah, wrap up with my team. And again, everyone was very supportive and wished me the best, and it was a very, like, easy parting place.

A (12:22)

Yeah, that's the best transition that could happen.

B (12:24)

Like, we still all follow each other on Instagram, and so it's fun to see, like, that's lovely. Yeah. What they're up to. And, you know, because I. I was on a small team, so it was, you know. So then when I went out on my own, I also was moving back to New York. So during the years after my graduate program in Philly, I was living in D.C. which is where I'm from, and that's where I was working as well. So I just was starting to miss New York so much. I felt like a lot of my friends in D.C. had left or kind of drifted apart during COVID and I just was like, okay, you know What? I'm almost 30. New York and I are not done. Like, why not just move back? And it was such a great time to move back. I mean, people were just so happy. To see the city.

A (13:04)

Yes. To see other people. Yes.

B (13:08)

Like, everyone was so nice. I mean, I still think people are very nice in New York, but, like, it was just so great. And so it was a special time.

A (13:15)

Yeah. I mean, a horrible time.

B (13:17)

A special time. But also what was fun was, like, because I'd really grown my business during COVID I'd connected with a bunch of, like, influencers and designers and a bunch of people on Instagram who were so excited to meet up when I got to New York. So that was Great. Because I had lived there before, of course, but that was, you know, six or seven years prior and I was so much younger. I only knew people I'd gone to college with or interned with, and a lot of those people weren't there. And so it was really nice to have this community from my work. And honestly, most of my friends to this day are still people who I've met through the creative world, which is so special.

A (13:53)

Yeah, I think so too. I'm the same way. I feel like I've met so many lovely people, especially through the podcast, like getting to connect with so many other designers. And it's major to be able to have people that you can call upon who know what you're going through. And it makes it so much easier to have a depth of friendship because they understand.

B (14:14)

Yeah. And of course, I mean, I have a handful of friends who are in corporate, you know, traditional jobs too, just because New York there's, you know, something for everyone. But I love how many people there are who've come into my life like because of work related things. I think. Yeah, it's so fun.

A (14:28)

So when you move back to New York, are you immediately starting to take clients or are you focus? What, what's your focus when you move back to New York?

B (14:36)

So I've only ever done design like for myself, if that's what you mean.

A (14:40)

Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

B (14:42)

No, no, it's okay. I have done a little bit of styling for designers on shoots that was a little bit easier to do when I was in D.C. just cause like, logistically speaking. But yeah. So when I moved to New York, I was on a contract with a handful of publications and then with other ones, it's more of like just a monthly cadence. And so I just decided, you know, this is a great place to be for going all in with this industry. I was so excited to be able to go to in person events. I think you can do the role that I'm doing from different cities, but I just felt like kind of for where I was in my life. Why not?

A (15:15)

All the best events are there. Makes sense.

B (15:18)

Like, I don't drive. I love, you know, being in the city. I love just walking out my door and having everything right there. So for me that was great. And I just was excited to be back and start to really engage with people, especially, you know, like working in your home all day. It's so nice to just have this community to draw upon in the city.

A (15:36)

Absolutely. I think when I feel at my worst Especially with work. Plugging into people who are doing the same thing immediately makes me feel better. Yeah.

B (15:47)

And, like, it's crazy how many events there are. I mean, I have to really pick and choose. Like, there I could.

A (15:53)

I see on your Instagram, you're like, I'm at this event and this event and this event and this event in.

B (15:57)

One day, declining, like, so many other ones, too. Just because it's like, so. I mean, I would go crazy if I was going. Like, you could make a career out of just going to all the events.

A (16:06)

Just going to events. If only you got paid for that. That would be great.

B (16:09)

So I'm like. And it's funny because. Yeah. Well, some people I think are like, oh, I like this because, you know, it. It feels like I'm working. And, you know, I can count that as part of my workday. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, do this after work. Like, I don't go to any better during the day because I need that time to work.

A (16:25)

No, we. Exactly. We are the same way. When I get an invite for, like, a 2pm event, I'm like, who can go to this?

B (16:31)

Yeah. But I think some people are like, oh, this counts as. And I'm like, what do you mean counts? Like, I don't have, you know, I have to, like, be on my computer.

A (16:38)

The whole, like, when you are your own boss, it's like, it counts, but it's also counting against you.

B (16:45)

Totally.

A (16:45)

Because you're making more work for yourself.

B (16:47)

Yeah. And I think in New York, too, it's like when you leave the house, because a lot of these events are, like, in different neighborhoods. It's like, oh, well, because I'm over here, I want to go into this cute store. You know, I want to go to this couch.

A (16:57)

I may as well.

B (16:57)

Yep. It just, like, ends up being a whole thing. So I sort of prefer to do either, like, the early morning or the night ones. The night ones, I think, are good because they give me a good stopping point to, like, kind of plan my day around. Yep. And it's fine.

A (17:10)

I was like, I have to get these things done by a certain time.

B (17:13)

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm always just in, like, workout clothes the whole day, so I feel like it's a good way to be. Like, okay, you have to start getting ready and, you know, let's get dressed.

A (17:23)

That's amazing. And so when did you start going to Paris and start shopping and talking about secondhand and vintage and all of that?

B (17:32)

Yeah. So that's pretty new. I Mean, secondhand for me is not new. I, as I said, like, in grad school, was very into Craigslist, and then in D.C. became super into Facebook Marketplace, and actually during the pandemic, led a bunch of Zoom workshops for my Instagram followers about how to use Facebook Marketplace. And so I actually teamed up with their comms team internally at Facebook Marketplace and ran these together. So, yeah, so we had a really fun one where the founder of Facebook Marketplace, like the woman on the Facebook team who helped to create that platform, joined, and we spoke to everyone about, you know, how this works, what the goal was, and how to become better at using it.

A (18:13)

That's incredible.

B (18:14)

Yeah, it was really fun to do that, and people were so interested. And I think again, during COVID everyone was joining these Zoom things at night. And you bring your little Zoom workshop chores. Exactly. Do your log on and, like, listen. So I just made them free. I don't believe in, like, really. I mean, now I'll sometimes charge for them because I do a little more in depth. But during the pandemic, I just really wanted it to be free.

A (18:36)

And so that goodwill, I feel like, has carried into your career.

B (18:40)

Yeah, yeah. And so that was always so interesting. And it kind of stemmed from, like, I just would post a lot about shopping secondhand and we'd get a bunch of DMs. And so I thought, okay, why don't I just condense this into, like, a course for people? And it was fun. And so Paris, I ended up going there for work in April 2024. I will tell you, I don't speak any French other than, like, five basic words. So people are always like, oh, would you ever lead a trip? And I'm like, well, I think I would to have a better command of the language to lead.

A (19:11)

That said, people might need a French speaker.

B (19:14)

Right? I mean, people apparently do it without knowing French.

A (19:18)

They definitely do.

B (19:19)

Like, some of it, I think is, like a personality thing. And I feel like I can converse with people because I, you know, I'll, like, either type it down or kind of like, yeah, we'll, like, make it work. But I don't know if I could lead a bunch of other people, you.

A (19:33)

Know, one on one, 25 designers when you can't speak to the person directly is gonna be a little difficult. Yeah.

B (19:39)

But I went and have been back a bunch, both for work and pleasure since then, just because I loved, like, the flea market scene there. And so I've made a point to fit that in. When I've been in Europe for Other things or just to go back and kind of. As I research for the book that I'm writing, which is called Secondhand Style, and it's about all things secondhand, as the title suggests, I have wanted to go back and kind of. I'll have a section about, like, the thrifting scene over there. And so I'm so excited. Yeah. So it's. I mean, it's just amazing how widespread of a scene it is there. And just. It's so rooted in their culture. It's just like every weekend, there's, you know, at least five or six flea markets going on throughout the city, and they move locations every weekend. And so when I was there most recently, I. I brought my own Hulk and bag. I don't know if you're familiar with those. I saw.

A (20:31)

Yep. And I have one and love it.

B (20:32)

Okay. So. As any good designer does. Yeah. So I brought a Hulk in and was, like, wheeling it around, going to all these places, and it was just great. And then I brought everything back in my suitcases.

A (20:45)

So I'm going to Paris in January, and I'm gonna bring a Hulk in for sure. You inspired me.

B (20:49)

That'll be so great. You should. I mean, it's funny because someone asked me, like, oh, is that too American? You know, am I. And I said, you know, honestly, I don't think so, because I think Europeans are so utilitarian that having a little rolling thing like that I actually think fits right into kind of the culture of city living. And people have little rolling things. They don't have Hulkins. But I did see a few other foreign with Hulkins also.

A (21:14)

I think I have written all over my face that I'm American. So I don't know if the Hulking is gonna be the thing that.

B (21:22)

Put on a striped shirt.

A (21:23)

No one ever tries to speak another language to me. True red lipstick and a striped shirt. I maybe could get away with it.

B (21:30)

Little scarf.

A (21:31)

Okay, so how did the book come about? It was just because someone saw what you were doing on your Instagram, or talk to me a little bit more about that, if you can.

B (21:39)

Had to work really hard to pitch that out. So that was a very long process. Oh, good for that. First I was with an agent, and then ended up just going out on my own to pitch it to a publisher and got picked up, and so that. Yeah, it's. It's crazy, though, how long it takes major to. Yeah. So I had my whole proposal, and I. Yeah. I mean, there are plenty of people who. Yeah. Someone reaches out, but that was not my case.

A (22:06)

So, I mean, I think it's more impressive that you had to put it all together and work for it yourself. Yeah.

B (22:11)

I sort of described the proposal as like, kind of like a thesis of sorts because you're doing some sample chapters, a lot of like background research justifying why this topic is timely. You are talking a lot about like your potential audience. You have to go through a whole marketing plan of how you would market the book. You are talking about like the photos, you'd run, the photo size, like everything is in there and so then the publisher.

A (22:37)

Incredibly detailed.

B (22:39)

Yeah. Well, it's great though to have that to work off of now because as I work on my draft, I have a lot of things in my notes that were in the proposal or my sample chapters. And so was actually working on a little bit of it earlier today and kind of thinking about just things to add to different sections. So that'll come out. I'm not sure if it'll be the fall or the spring 2027 and hopefully that'll be here before we know it. It feels so far away with these books. With any book, especially nonfiction though. But really with any, it can be. I mean it's usually at least a year. And so this is just now the writing process. And then I'll, you know, do edits and then I'll piece it all together and see it in a couple of years.

A (23:23)

Are you having fun with the writing?

B (23:25)

I am, yeah. It's fun to be able to do more first person because a lot of my articles are other people as the sources. And so it's nice to kind of say like, you know, in my experience, I think this is my opinion. Yeah. And what's so nice is I've been asked to write other books before and ultimately did not take on those projects. And often those projects were either to be a ghostwriter for someone else or to write about a topic that involved a lot of research and was not a topic I consider myself a specialist in. And so I definitely have the tools to do that as a journalist. But this is nice because so much of it is just information I already know. I'm not like sitting in a library reading about the history of a certain design movement and trying to condense that.

A (24:10)

And, and make it sound passionate. You know, you're passionate about this, so it will come through in the right way.

B (24:15)

Yeah, I mean, I think there, there are who enjoy like those research heavy books. But I wanted it to be a topic that I really. Because when you sign up to Do a book. I mean, you're. This is, like, what you're thinking about for several years, so you have to be able to maintain that enthusiasm for years.

A (24:30)

The excitement about it. Yeah.

B (24:32)

And so that's kind of what gave me pause with some of these other opportunities, was like, oh, my gosh, am I going to be able to keep up the momentum about talking about this design movement in history, Bauhaus movement for two years?

A (24:44)

Yeah.

B (24:45)

And, I mean, I'm sure there are people who, yeah, they would say yes.

A (24:48)

That'S perfect for them.

B (24:49)

Yeah. So. But I also really. I felt like I'd worked hard to create kind of my own platform and brand, and I wanted the book to be about that. I didn't want to necessarily just be the author of a book that was a more broad topic, but not really pertaining to, like, my work.

A (25:04)

I mean, I think it makes a case for waiting until it feels like the perfect opportunity and. Or working for the opportunity that you want versus the one hard to do that.

B (25:14)

I mean, it's hard to, like, say no, then no. Okay. That means other people might do this before me or it might not happen, or it might happen a time in my life that I wasn't prepared for, you know? And so, I mean, I think that can be extended to, like, a lot of life milestones and things where it's kind of like, you know, you don't want to say yes. Just to be the first one to do something is kind of what I.

A (25:41)

And I think that most people who I've spoken to who have said no when they were scared to say no, we're so glad they did.

B (25:49)

Yeah.

A (25:49)

At least a couple years in, if.

B (25:51)

You were feeling some things. And that was something I've definitely learned just with various opportunities that have come up in this job, is just trust your gut, even if it's hard.

A (26:07)

Before we. I'm so excited about the confessions, but before we get into them, what's advice you partake in?

B (26:12)

Ooh. Okay. So I've thought long and hard about this. My vice is shopping for designer bags on Japanese ebay. You and me both. Wait, really?

A (26:21)

The problem is that every guest brings their vice in, and I'm like, oh, shit, I have more vices than I thought I did.

B (26:27)

Wait, I love that you had one too. Who knew?

A (26:30)

I love Japanese ebay.

B (26:32)

Yeah. It's, like, the greatest thing. It's the best. The stuff ships so fast. It ships in, like, it gets here.

A (26:37)

Faster than if it were in, like, Idaho. I'm so confused.

B (26:40)

So this is, like, a 20, 25 thing. And I honest wish I discovered it when I was like in my 20s and discovered the real real, because the deals are like, it's like half the price of the realreal.

A (26:51)

They're insane. And you know, the best thing about Japan is that counterfeits are so strongly, like, the law is so strongly against them that you can be 100% sure, yes. That it's authentic, but you're still buying at a price that you're like, is this authentic?

B (27:06)

I know. And it's crazy wild. And like, some of the sites will have like, coupon codes. It's like on top of this. So it's like you can get a Gucci bag for under $200 and it'll come. Exactly.

A (27:16)

And I personally love a like 90s vintage bag. That's a little beat up.

B (27:20)

Me too.

A (27:21)

I don't want my things to look super. Actually, someone just stopped me because I have a Louis Vuitton Speedy that I bought when I was like 20. I saved all my summer intern money and bought it and now I've put brooches on it. So I've poked holes in it.

B (27:37)

Oh, but that's a cool idea.

A (27:39)

I love it. And it's made me use the bag 50 times more than I was. I'm just not precious about those kinds of things. So secondhand, like, Japanese ebay is literally perfect.

B (27:49)

Yeah. And it's fun because, like, if you do get tired of it, then you can just consign it again.

A (27:53)

Like it's not so precious because you spent four grand on it or whatever.

B (27:57)

Yeah, well, and also, yeah, I kind of like baby some of my stuff too. I think I get scared to use it if it's too nice. And so having it be pre loved, I'm like, well, this be should just. It's already been in the world.

A (28:08)

Like, it's already been used. I'm just going to add my history to it. History to it.

A (28:17)

All right, let's do this. Do this. Do this. Do this, do this. I still can't believe this actually happened. I was working with a client who wanted fun, unexpected pieces throughout their home. So I was spending weekends combing estate sales, antique shops and random little boutiques like a mad woman. One Saturday, I stumbled across this pale green ceramic vase at an estate sale. And it was perfect. Matte glaze, delicate etching, unusual shape, and priced ridiculously low. I thought, this is going to be amazing on the console in the entry. So I grabbed it immediately, feeling like I'd scored some kind of hidden Gem. A few days later, I was moving things around in my studio and noticed it felt heavier than I expected. At first I thought maybe there was some packing or filler inside. Maybe the previous owner had used it for something fragile. Curiosity got the better of me, and I carefully lifted the lid. And then I froze. Inside was a bag of ashes. Like actual ashes. My brain went blank for a full 10 seconds. I couldn't even process it.

B (29:17)

I knew where this was going. I'm loving.

A (29:19)

Immediately, Sarah's like, yep.

B (29:21)

Huh?

A (29:21)

Okay.

A (29:23)

I called the estate sale organizer immediately, trying to keep my voice from cracking. This poor girl. They were whore or person. I don't know if it's a girl. They were horrified and explained that it had been overlooked in the estate and had absolutely never been meant for sale. They came and picked it up within the hour, apologizing profusely. I mean, yeah, I'm sure they did.

A (29:45)

Meanwhile, I was still staring at the vase, heart pounding, thinking about how close I came to putting a literal urn in someone's living room or on a client's mantel. Since then, I've become hyper vigilant with anything I saw secondhand. Every vase, bowl, or sculpture gets a double and triple check. If there's even a hint that it might have some weird story, it doesn't go near a client. I laugh about it now, but honestly, it's one of those things that haunts you in a funny but terrifying way. You think you're buying a pretty thing and suddenly you're the unwitting caretaker of someone's personal history. Has that ever happened to you, Sarah?

B (30:20)

You know it has not. But it was funny because right when you said, oh, it feels heavy, I'm like, oh. But I also love that you had me on about one relating to an estate sale. That's great.

A (30:30)

Well, we do try to lightly theme them.

B (30:32)

Okay. Okay.

A (30:33)

Well, when we get people who write in, we, like, are like, okay, for this person, we'll do it here. For this person, we'll do it here. So I try to make it, you.

B (30:39)

Know, love that, but applicable. No, it definitely has not. And now I'm, like, terrified.

A (30:45)

I know, right? I have to look into every single thing I buy for myself.

B (30:48)

I know. Do I need to go through my apartment after this?

A (30:50)

I'm like, I mean, what if you literally just had someone's ashes in your apartment and you didn't know, like, well.

B (30:56)

Okay, so my question is, did she get to keep her he. This beautiful urn? Or the whole thing went.

A (31:03)

Yeah, it doesn't Sound like it.

B (31:05)

It doesn't sound like it either. I agree. Cause I was like, oh, this was best of both worlds. Like, the ashes go back to somewhere else. They get the vase.

A (31:17)

But if you think about it, like, they would have had to bring a plastic bag and dump the ashes.

B (31:23)

Right. They would have had to be able to second, like, thing to put them.

A (31:28)

I don't know if there's, like, protocol with dealing with Ash. I don't. You're right.

B (31:32)

There might be, like. Well, I feel like there's sort of, like, transporting for sure. Yeah, there is.

A (31:38)

Yes. I think you, like, can't bring it to other countries because I've heard people being like, I want to spread my mom's ashes in the Mediterranean. And you, like, can't or you're not supposed to.

B (31:47)

Well, and it's funny because it's like, was this, like, the estate sale person's, like, husband in there?

A (31:55)

What?

B (31:56)

Like, maybe one of them had passed away, and then the second one did, hence the sale. And it was. And then that's what was in there. Like, it's just so bizarre. What a weird one.

A (32:05)

You can see how it could happen. But how did the estate people not.

B (32:09)

Or, like, a kid of the owner? Yeah, that's so strange.

A (32:12)

Yeah. Somebody was like, where are those ashes? Where's Pappy's ashes?

B (32:16)

Like, it could have been, like, an animal. Yes.

A (32:20)

I was thinking that, like, maybe it was a dog or something. But I feel like if it were, maybe the estate sale company would not have been so panicked.

B (32:30)

True.

A (32:31)

I feel like being there within the hour is giving. That was somebody's grandfather.

B (32:37)

Oh, my goodness.

A (32:41)

Oh, my God. Okay, well, penance on this one seems pretty easy to me. I think the estate sale company probably needs penance of. Let's double check those faces and make sure that everything we're putting for sale is not containing human remains. That feels like bare minimum.

B (32:58)

Yes, I agree.

A (33:06)

Confession number two. Number two. Two, two. I have to tell you about this one. It was honestly one of the wildest, most thrilling moments in my career as a designer. Last year, I was wandering through a vintage market in Boston, just scouting for a client's bedroom refresh. Most of the stuff was kind of meh, but tucked in a corner, I spotted this enormous tapestry rolled up and kind of shoved aside, which are where the best things are. As I'm sure you know. It was this insane mix of muted jewel tones and intricate gold embroidery and a pattern that reminded me of something you'd see in a French estate. It was dramatic and Full of character, and completely unlike anything else in the market. I knew immediately it would transform my client's bedroom, which was a moody, eclectic space. She wanted to feel bohemian, but still somewhat traditional. I negotiated with the vendor, shelled out a few hundred dollars, and had it professionally hung above her bed. The reaction when she saw it, Pure joy. She loved it. I loved it. I thought it was just another great find. A few weeks later, I casually decided to Google the tapestry to see if there were similar pieces. The search was successful. So successful that not only did I find the exact piece, but discovered that this tapestry was incredibly rare, worth thousands of dollars, and probably hadn't been seen outside a private collection in decades. I had no idea. I just thought I'd found something overlooked that would make the room pop. I literally stumbled into a masterpiece and I didn't even know it. I still can't believe that I got so lucky. But moments like that are exactly why I love vintage sourcing. You never know what you're going to find, and there's such a thrill in the hunt. I will say though, I still regret not keeping it, which would be my regret too.

B (34:49)

Well, did they want to keep it to sell it? That's what I'm not totally understanding.

A (34:55)

I think when you find something that valuable and then you realize that you sold it to a client for like 500 bucks, you're like, oh man, I wish. I either sure would have sold it for more or kept it like in my private collection.

B (35:08)

Right.

A (35:08)

You know, well.

B (35:09)

Cause it's so funny, when I was in Paris, I actually found this amazing tapestry for literally €20. I took it and like, man, I saw it.

A (35:18)

It was insane. Yes. I. My jaw dropped.

B (35:21)

It was like one of these incredible ones that is only the leafs and no animals, people, anything. It's so hard to find that. But so, yeah, I felt like, oh my gosh, like I could totally sell this, but I didn't want to. Just cuz it's great to find something so cheap and then be able to keep it. So I totally understand this person. Exactly.

A (35:40)

I think that's what it is. I mean, I have a tapestry behind me and I love this tapestry. I found it for $500 on Facebook Marketplace. We had someone come in from Cherish and she was like, where did you get that? And appraised it and it was $16,000. I would never sell this.

B (35:54)

Yeah, that's insane.

A (35:55)

Even if it was for $16,000, it was like, you know, it's so. I'm so proud of it. So I Feel like it will always stay. And I think that's what.

B (36:03)

Well, and I think, too, when it's a client and it sounded like this client, like, the way she described or he said, you know, they just wanted, like, this boho chic bedroom. They probably would have been fine with something else. I think that's frustrating because I've had that happen with friends who maybe are just looking for something cool, but they might not be as particular as I am. And we're at the flea market or on Facebook and they find something before I do, and they probably would have been fine with something else. Whereas I'm like, if I found this, my life would be complete. Like, so I totally get that. Where you're like, oh, I could have gotten the client one off of Facebook marketplace and kept this really cool one. So I totally kept this one.

A (36:46)

That is like, you know, a rare artifact, Like, I think. But also it's one of those things that it really does show you that items are worth what you'll pay for them. So, like, they can be, you know, $60 to someone and $16,000 to someone else. But, like, to me, it's more about the sentimentality of it. Like, that's what gives it the value.

B (37:08)

Yeah. And I'm so intrigued about how much this person paid for it. I guess we don't know, but it sounds like it was maybe $100.

A (37:15)

She said she gave them a couple hundred dollars.

B (37:17)

Okay. Okay.

A (37:19)

So I'm guessing 2 or 300.

B (37:20)

Okay.

A (37:21)

And who knows how much it's worth?

B (37:23)

Crazy.

A (37:23)

It's just funny. Cause, like, I can't imagine leaving, like, such a rare tapestry in a client's house. And then you come back and they're.

B (37:31)

Like, oh, we just decided to switch.

A (37:32)

It out for something. Like, I could just see something like that happening where it' this perfect tapestry.

B (37:37)

And it ends up being. I think that's where this was going, and I'm sure this has happened. Was she Google imaged it and saw the client had listed it for sale for a ton of money and was like, oh, my gosh, what are you doing? Like, I just got this for you. But I'm sure that happens eventually.

A (37:54)

I mean, that would be a better story. Can you write it?

B (37:57)

But I think that probably happens over time. Like, not in a malicious way.

A (38:01)

Definitely.

B (38:01)

Just people redecorate and they're like, oh, who knew? This thing my designer found for me is actually worth thousands.

A (38:07)

Definitely. I actually saw someone selling these fortuny lights on Facebook marketplace, and I was like, wait, what? Why Are you selling these? These are worth tens of thousands of dollars. And they were like, yeah, a former designer picked them out. We don't really like them anymore. And they were selling them for like a couple hundred dollars.

B (38:27)

Crazy.

A (38:28)

And I was like, oh, my God, if we're that designer, like, I'll just go pick them up.

B (38:31)

Seriously? Yeah. You get like first dibs on those.

A (38:36)

Yeah. Well also just because they're like, so they deserve to be in a space that can support them, you know, like, they're so special. And I feel like it just ending up in a random person's house is kind of sad.

B (38:47)

Yeah.

A (38:47)

Not that random people don't deserve beautiful things, but, you know, when they're like these masterpieces, it's hard when they're just on Facebook Marketplace. Okay, so penance for. I mean, nothing really bad happened in this story, but I feel like penance may be for the designers to research it before you sell it.

B (39:08)

Totally. I was gonna say my recommendation, just wait a minute before you give it to the client. Especially if it is something that's not a mass produced thing that you can just order or find on ebay or something. I think just wait. Because I'm sure I've made that mistake over the years too. And actually, even if I haven't, I've seen plenty of people on Facebook Marketplace make that mistake where they'll list something and they'll just have so undervalued it. And then sometimes the listing will then get updated and they'll say, oh, sorry, I actually, you know, I listed this for 80, but I'm actually going to list it for 500 after having done more.

A (39:45)

Yeah, I found it on first dibs.

B (39:47)

And now it's 500 or like due to the amount of messages or whatever. And so sometimes I'm like, sure. But yeah. So I think, like, not really how that works. Sometimes you learn the hard way and it's like, well, okay. And I feel like even I. Or, you know, other people in their businesses, you learn like you just way undercharge someone for a project and you learn, oh my gosh, that should have been at triple the rate that I charged them. But you can't really go back to them. You just say, you know, if another client reaches out, that will be my new baseline rate for them.

A (40:20)

You'll change the way you do it. Yep.

B (40:23)

Yeah.

A (40:23)

There are a couple clients who have gotten such good deals on working with us.

B (40:27)

Yeah.

A (40:28)

Because at one point we were flat fee and it was so low. And I think about it now and it is mind blowing that we were ever able to do that. But they're some of my favorite clients, so.

B (40:37)

But it's interesting. I've never gone back to people, but I've had work people come back to me and say this install, like, just the projects I'm doing in my apartment. This took way longer than when I had quoted you the new project.

A (40:52)

Yeah, it drives me insane.

B (40:54)

And I've googled our guys do that too. Like certain rates at which, like, this person was trying to charge a 50% overage. And I sort of was like, you can't do that. Let's meet somewhere in the middle.

A (41:04)

In the middle.

B (41:05)

But it's so interesting because, you know, it's just interesting how sometimes I think people do go back and say, wait, this actually took way more work. And in my work, I'm like, okay, lesson learned. I'm not gonna go back. So I just won't, you know, hopefully that person won't need this again. And if they do, then I can explain. But, like, I'm just gonna close out this project.

A (41:24)

And yeah, we're the same way. I think it's, you know, mistakes that I, as the business owner made by pricing it as we did. That's not the fault of the client. And it's how I feel with workmen and subs as well. If you price this job, it's your part of your job to price it correctly.

B (41:43)

Yeah.

A (41:43)

If you're not pricing it correctly, why would we approve that?

B (41:47)

Yeah. In my case, the person had done a walkthrough too. And so when I pushed back, I said, well, she had come to look at the space and she could have, you know, taken in then that the window could be like, you could have.

A (41:57)

Given me a higher number in the beginning.

B (42:00)

Right? Yeah. But it's hard when the work is done and it's done beautifully. And you're like, well, I do love this. And of course I wanna compensate you, but, like, I get it. I work for myself too. But also, like, what?

A (42:12)

Yeah, also this feels. I wouldn't do this to somebody. And you're. I mean, you know, we want everyone to be paid fairly. I think it's to your point, when you've done all of the prep that you can possibly do to make sure you're getting the right information, it feel. Feels a little. It's a little sheisty because you're in it and you approved a certain number to begin with. And then they're like, oh, sorry, we're either halfway through or we're Done. And we need more money. What are you supposed to do at that point?

B (42:38)

I've had people do that to me while driving furniture to me from places like on you ship. They'll say, oh, this actually is taking longer than I thought. And it's hard when you're like. Especially if you're like a woman and it might be like two men coming, and you're like, okay, I don't want this to be a whole.

A (42:56)

I don't want this to be animate. Exactly. You're like, I guess I'll just give you an extra hundred dollars to not have to deal with this. But I know that was your plan.

B (43:02)

From the beginning, like calling a friend's husband, like, what. What would you do? You know? Like, seriously. Because it's like, you know, I'm like, well, for me, what would a man do? Yeah, absolutely.

A (43:14)

And a man would say, fuck no.

B (43:15)

Right, right.

A (43:16)

So, you know, I. I have to work on that with myself too, because of course it's. Yeah, it's important for everyone to be paid fairly, but it's also. It's hard to have trust in your subs when things like that pop up, pop up, pop up, pop up.

A (43:35)

Um, okay. Couple questions for you. We're almost done. As a stylist and design writer, I'm sure you've come across all kinds of interesting and unique pieces in the process of sourcing for different spaces. What's your favorite or most interesting piece you've come across?

B (43:48)

It's a tough one.

B (43:51)

Okay. It's funny. This is on my mind.

A (43:54)

Maybe the first one that comes to your head.

B (43:55)

Well, it's on my mind because I was thinking about it while working on some book stuff earlier today, and I was putting together a section of all of my favorite things I found at my flea market that I go to in New York. I found just a beautiful blue and white mirror that is oversized. It's like a standing mirror. And it was kind of a spurge for the flea market. But I think I've reversed Google Image search this and found it on ebay. And it was going for quite a lot more and.

A (44:23)

Oh, amazing.

B (44:24)

But it's the only one that I've found like it. And so it's interesting when you find something and you don't really expect to see anything when you reverse image it and then you do. And I just. I mean, this mirror is just so beautiful. It's gone in so many different places in my bedroom. It's not anything out of the ordinary by any means, but it's just such a fun styling piece and I almost didn't see it when I was at the flea market. I think it was like a second lap situation. And that's something I'm talking about too is like how important it is to not rush and do a few laps.

A (44:55)

Oh, my God. I completely agree. A second lap is when I find the best stuff. Yeah.

B (44:59)

And 1,000%, honestly, like, I would probably say that about like a lot of the things that I think are cool pieces. Another thing that I think is really fun is I have a chair that's like a tapestry print chair. Thank you. In my living room. And my friend, one of my editors, who's also one of my good friends and I went to. We love a good, like, designer unloading sale when a design studio. Yeah, I'm sure you go to them or have them. And we drove down to Philadelphia for one a couple of years ago and the designer had put a little preview on her stories the day before and she had put two of these tapestry chairs. So my friend and I were like, okay, we need to be the first ones. We need to get these. We don't even know how much they are. I think they were only $200 each. So we were like, this is amazing. But we were prepared to pay like double.

A (45:54)

So sure, just give them to me.

B (45:56)

You just don't know too. Like, at these sales, sometimes people do have really good deals. Sometimes it is kind of still high end. So we call them our friendship chairs. She has one, I have one.

A (46:06)

Oh, that's so cute.

B (46:07)

Well, at first I was sort of resentful that we split them up because she lives in a house and I'm just in an apartment and they're much more apartment size. They're like small chairs.

A (46:16)

They're smaller. Okay.

B (46:17)

But I appreciate actually just. Well, a. I love that there are friendship chairs. I didn't want to take. Take the joy from her. But also I don't think they need to be together because the pattern is pretty intense. So having one on its own is more than enough. Like, I actually might not have liked the look of having two in my living room. And they are small. So, like, it's nice to have, you know, a small person can sit in that chair. But I think if I had two, it would be a little more limiting. So it's nice to have like a bigger chair and, you know, have that small one too.

A (46:45)

But, well, and sometimes something on its own, it's able to shine more. It really is like your eye just is drawn to it. More than if you have a pair. Something about the quantity takes away from the impact.

B (46:58)

Yeah. And so now we. Yeah, I mean, we truly call them our friendship chairs. We love them. They definitely don't need to be in the same home. And. Yeah. So that was another fun one.

A (47:05)

I love that. That's a great one. That's a great one. You have an exciting project coming up. Your book Secondhand Style, which we've spoken about, is due out in 2027. You've spoken a little bit about it, but what's the thing you're most excited for us to read?

B (47:19)

Ooh. I mean, I'm just excited to showcase, like, a lot of my finds from over the years, and I'm excited. Oh, I'm so excited to see them, like, to. Just to teach people how you. One thing, you know, might not stand out on its own, but kind of in the context of a room, it could add so much. Because I think a lot of people have a difficult time when they're at a flea market envisioning what something will look like in their home. And so being able to show how I've styled things alongside kind of concrete tips about how to shop, flea markets, Facebook, marketplace, things like that, I think it just is always helpful to people. Even when I go to the flea market with people who are newer to it, I think people just get really overwhelmed. And so definitely I'm excited to show, like, okay, this is something I brought home and then had to polish, but now it's part of this little vignette, and it looks great. And these are individual, like, books that I've thrifted, and they're now styled on the shelf for art that I've reframed. So I'm excited because it's funny writing it like, it's definitely geared more toward people who have some thrifting experience, but you definitely don't have to. So it's funny kind of just trying to think so literally, about the tips I would give someone when I haven't had to think that way in a while, because I've been doing this for a long time, and, well, it's become innate.

A (48:37)

So it's hard to then explain something that's innate.

B (48:39)

Well, so when I was in Paris, I just. After I went to a bunch of the flea markets, I just opened the notes app of my phone and wrote down a bunch of notes, Notes that I thought were kind of takeaways from that day. And it was so helpful to just do that fresh, because it is a little bit different of an experience over there, especially just. I mean, we're so lucky here. I feel like so many people take Venmo or credit card and just even cash. And the level of bargaining you can therefore do there because of the cash is so different and interesting in its own. And so I just had a lot of little takeaways that were like, okay, do this, don't do this. You know, try to, like, figure these things out before. And so that was like. It made me look at it like a beginner again.

A (49:21)

I think it's so interesting because the country or city really does matter for how you barter and how you buy things. I went to Morocco a couple years ago, and I'm going again in November, so.

B (49:35)

Cool.

A (49:36)

And our guide told us, like, they want you to haggle. Yeah, they like it. That's what you're supposed to do. Yes. So don't say, like, oh. Like, don't get overwhelmed and just be like, okay, okay, 35. They want you to go lower. They like the bargain. But in the US Sometimes if you try to push them too far, they'll just be like, no, no, no. Like, go away.

B (49:55)

Well, and what's great, too, that I found about in Paris is you can just say, oh, thank you so much. I'm gonna think about it, and the person will say, okay, great. They won't say, well, maybe only, like, twice. Someone said, well, what price are. What would make you buy it? Like, they're not to.

A (50:13)

Going.

B (50:13)

Gonna push you.

A (50:14)

Yep. They're not like, yeah.

B (50:16)

I think other places, like, people are so eager to make a sale because sometimes I literally was just asking because I thought, oh, maybe a friend would like this or, you know, but it's not worth it if it's a certain amount. It's like, I'm not gonna text that person or whatever.

A (50:28)

Yeah.

B (50:29)

And so it's a great deal, though.

A (50:30)

And that's what you're trying to find out.

B (50:31)

Yeah, it was like, I literally just wanted to know the price, and then I would think, okay, does this. Or something that's just, like, not a great size to bring back, but you would make it work if it was the right price, if it was perfect. Yeah. So it would be things like that where, like, I wasn't fully invested in them anyway. It would just be, like, a fun to have situation, and people would just be totally cool with you saying, oh, okay, thank you so much. Maybe partly because of my twitch barrier, but also, I think they're. Yeah. They're like, okay, fine.

A (50:58)

I don't.

B (50:58)

Yeah.

A (51:05)

Well, I Cannot wait to read secondhand style. I am beyond excited.

B (51:09)

Thank you so much.

A (51:10)

And before you go, our tagline for CTI is things that made you feel. What's something that made you feel recently?

B (51:17)

Ooh, I read a really good rom com book. Have you heard of the series? So I'm a big reader. That's something I should have mentioned. I read like over 60 books a year for fun.

A (51:28)

Me too.

B (51:28)

Oh, my gosh.

A (51:29)

I read 140 last year.

B (51:31)

That is insane. Caroline. I am so.

A (51:34)

It was my year of reading, so I really, really, really dug in this year. I'm at like, like 45.

B (51:40)

Maybe I just hit 60 with this one last night that made me cry. Oh, my God.

A (51:45)

Okay, tell me. Cause I'm gonna immediately go put it on my Kindle.

B (51:48)

I'm not normally like a huge rom com reader anymore. Cause sometimes I just find them to be too cheesy. But 831 stories is like these short stories and it's. You can get them on Kindle or the actual book. And I think they actually have, like a subscription too. And you can just get them in the mail.

A (52:05)

Oh, amazing.

B (52:05)

So this was one. I just thought it would be cute for fall. It was based off of When Harry Met Sally, and it's like a ro. And they're road tripping from Iowa to New York, and it's like this love story told over a span of a decade. And it was just really emotional. So highly recommend.

A (52:20)

I'm gonna look that up. Oh, my God, that sounds great.

B (52:23)

To like, have a book that's like just a little escape like that. I mean, I like to read a lot of nonfiction too, but I feel like I was like, oh, my goodness. Who knew I was so, like, emotional about this romp.

A (52:33)

Like kicking your feet and getting like, a little, like, giggly. It's fine.

B (52:38)

Like, I mean, obviously with the. I think what I like about them is the characters have a lot of depth. Like, this one was told from both the guy and the girl's perspective. And so it's a little less cheesy than I think some of the rom coms on the market. It's very like. I don't know, like, you just get really invested into these characters. And I read another one in this 831 series a few months ago and definitely want to read more. So.

A (53:02)

Have you read Abby Jimenez's books?

B (53:04)

Of course. Yeah.

A (53:06)

I feel like she's. I didn't love her most recent one as much, but the part of your world and whatever it is the other One is. That's like the sister to that. Those were incredible.

B (53:15)

Yeah.

A (53:16)

I also loved Book Lovers by Emily Henry. Emily Henry.

B (53:20)

I mean, I love those too, but I feel like I just like, sometimes can't do them. Like, I can't do a lot of gum.

A (53:28)

I completely get that. It does. Sometimes I'm like a man. Like, this does not exist.

B (53:32)

Yeah, I love a thriller.

A (53:33)

It doesn't exist.

B (53:34)

I love a good nonfiction. I love any kind of like, like just New York related fiction. Like, I mean, that's such a broad thing, but I feel like there's so many scandals, situations in New York that are good. Like escapism.

A (53:51)

We're gonna have to offline about this because I have so much to say.

B (53:54)

Yes.

A (53:56)

My books that I mainly read are thrillers. So I have.

B (53:59)

Oh, my goodness.

A (53:59)

Yeah, we should discuss. Okay. Finally, where can we find you?

B (54:04)

So I am on Instagram sarahlion9 and I also have a website just that's linked in my Instagram bio. And a lot of my writing work is on there and design work as well.

A (54:16)

Amazing. And we'll keep our eye out for secondhand style.

B (54:19)

Thank you so much, Caroline. This is just so much fun.

A (54:20)

You'll have to come back when it's out and we can talk more.

B (54:22)

Oh, I would love that.

A (54:24)

Amazing. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. This was so fun.

B (54:28)

Thank you again.

A (54:29)

Of course. Until next week. Peace be with you.

B (54:32)

Bye.