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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Kelsey Klein Heywood, founder of Chicago based Klein Interiors. Raised in a family of builders, Kelsey brings a grounded, intuitive approach to design, valuing structure, restraint, and the reality of daily life. From her own 1920s Chicago bungalow to her client work, her spaces are made to be beautiful, yet livable, shaped by her deeply personal approach.
- [00:44]
B
I love this.
- [00:45]
A
Thank you for coming on the show. I'm so excited.
- [00:48]
B
Thank you. So happy to be here.
- [00:50]
A
We have to, like, disclose that we're real life friends so the voice will feel very conversational. Exactly. Yeah. We've probably had these conversations that we're about to have before. Okay, well, you've heard the show, so you kind of know how this works. But before we get into the Confessions, will you tell us how you got here?
- [01:07]
B
Well, honestly, I thought about how glad I am that you started this because there was a time where when I was starting this business, because this is my second career, I felt like there was no, like, real landmarks to go by when starting my business. So long story short, I had a 10 year career in HR. Loved that. It was intense. It was something that a lot was going out, not a lot of energy was coming in. People really only come to HR with problems.
- [01:41]
A
So, like, yeah, no kidding. I've actually not really thought about that. But they're not coming to you for the next.
- [01:46]
B
No one's here to pick up, hey, hr.
- [01:48]
A
My life's going super well.
- [01:49]
B
No, the line is long and there's a lot of people who want to talk to you. However, I literally, it's directly applicable to everything we do now because all we do is solve problems. But I had that career. Loved it. Had my first kid, Reid. So this was nine years ago. Now. The firm will be nine in October. I really got into design just by osmosis. Like, constantly being surrounded by it with. My grandpa was a builder. My dad has an excavation business. My mom has got a really good eye. So I was always involved in everything selections. Like, I was picking carpet when I was like 10. Like, that's not. You're not qualified for that.
- [02:32]
A
But also, how fun. As a 10 year old, I remember those moments of it being like, what do you think?
- [02:36]
B
Like, the color in my childhood bedroom was a little bit brighter than this chair. And I had a Pink. I mean, everything was pink, but, like, I chose that. Yeah. And it was wild, but I looked like that for a while. It was cute at the time. It's the 90s, but I had, like, a love for it. And what I didn't realize was I also had the skill and, like, vision that I thought everyone had. I just assumed people could walk into a room, see it finished, even when it was a complete ramshackle job. Like, but that was really what I just kept repeating. And when I was in my HR job, one of the most interesting parts I had to, like, reflect on when I was leaving that career was, like, what was the thing that I love the most about this job? And it was actually because I was the head of people and culture. It was when they were like, for six months, you're gonna just hand everything over to your team, and you're going to run this entire build out of our space. Wow. It was on LaSalle and Wacker. So I worked with architect. I did exactly what I do now, but it was in a real, like, office setting. Collaborative, like, spaces driven. Oh, cool. But it was. The style was super different, but the execution's the same.
- [03:50]
A
Yeah. You still learned what you needed to learn.
- [03:52]
B
I got to do that. And then once I started the firm, which was me sitting in my family room, like, postpartum, feeling like, what the hell am I doing? Who am I doing this for? Like, I just didn't. I. I knew enough about business because I had been part of these startups, and that was a beautiful experience and a great experience to have. Coming into starting your own business. Yeah. However, there's no playbook for this, and there still is no playbook. But what I was able to do was get clients that were often commercial at the beginning.
- [04:26]
A
Interesting.
- [04:26]
B
So United Airlines was a random HR connection because we used to hire. So the creative staffing agency that used to hire for United also would hire for us when I was in the startup world. And randomly, my recruiting manager, who I left behind when I left that role was she had said, like, oh, hey, Kelsey just started her own interior design business. Maybe you should reach out to her. So first, I was tapped for the CEOs at the time, the CEOs office in Willis Tower. She ended up, like, getting, I think, moved out of the role. So that didn't happen. But what did happen was the Polaris Lounges.
- [05:06]
A
Oh.
- [05:07]
B
In Newark, Houston, Chicago, lax.
- [05:12]
A
Oh, my God. I got to, like, style my first job.
- [05:14]
B
Well, I was, like, styling and doing all the finishing decor.
- [05:17]
A
Cause, like, they had Planned, sort of.
- [05:20]
B
It's a rinse and repeat for the most part.
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A
Like, they're sort of set. And they have, like, a set way of doing things correct.
- [05:26]
B
So it's like, you have the plans. Like, I would have, you know, this wall of shelving to do. I don't know if it was like, it was decor, objects, random odds and ends. Like, they wanted certain aviation elements too. And I'm like, that's kind of kitschy,
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A
but let me see what I can do. But okay.
- [05:43]
B
So the craziest part about that was that I would. I would fly in and out in the same day. I wouldn't even leave the airport. All of. All the product was coming into the airport, was never leaving the airport. But oftentimes it would go to, like, different hangars, so they wouldn't be able to keep track of it. And they were super particular about them actually procuring everything and then handling the shipping. And I was like, all right, your funeral. And it would be like, where's this? I'd be like, okay, so we should have. And I'd have, like, my plan. Like, we should have these whatever pieces. And they're like, oh, yeah, those have never really been received. I'm like, well, that's a problem.
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A
Well, I can't do my job without them.
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B
So I'm only here for like, eight hours. Go get on your little cart thing and find them. So that's kind of what would happen. And it was always like, just absolute madness. But it worked out. And then it.
- [06:38]
A
Well, you learned a lot. I mean, it was like matches and by fire. Yeah.
- [06:41]
B
And then it was mostly residential, thank God, which that was where I wanted to be. But it took me that little random detour. But it was a crash course in, like, basic receiving and stuff that you.
- [06:52]
A
Logistics. I feel like the logistics of that had to have been.
- [06:54]
B
And the timeline was so fast and so short. So I just got a lot more accustomed to really, the behind the scenes stuff and then just started from. Yeah, from like a residential angle. A lot of them were, like, Mike's co workers. A lot came in from Facebook at the time. So it was coworkers, like friends of friends. And it kind of went from there. And then the most interesting part of that is one of the first projects that I did was it was in north center and for a coworker of Mike's. And then conveniently, those. The clients who sold that house are my Pensacola and Ephraim clients. So they came back to get their mail six months later. And I was Already done. And their house wasn't done. And it had been five years.
- [07:41]
A
Wow.
- [07:42]
B
They were like, who did this?
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A
Who did this? We want her.
- [07:45]
B
So that relationship now that I've had with those clients is seven years running.
- [07:50]
A
Yeah. That's amazing.
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B
And we've done multiple homes together.
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A
You just finished a beautiful one for them.
- [07:56]
B
But like, that's how it just kind of was. A lot of referral, a lot of word of mouth, which was lovely.
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A
I mean, that's. It's to the point of like, you. When you're starting, you just take what you can get. Like you're saying, take it literally, whatever.
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B
Yes.
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A
And then it's. You never know what could come from those random little jobs.
- [08:16]
B
Absolutely.
- [08:16]
A
I mean, that's. Who knows? If you hadn't taken that one little job, you wouldn't have this client of seven years. Correct.
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B
It's.
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A
That's cool.
- [08:23]
B
The other piece too is like, I had three kids in under, like just about under four years.
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A
So I had insane.
- [08:31]
B
I didn't have a full fiscal year from 2017 until 2021.
- [08:35]
A
That's crazy.
- [08:36]
B
So I was cranking out work.
- [08:38]
A
Yep.
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B
Cranking out kids, I was gonna say. And really not sleeping. And really not sleeping.
- [08:41]
A
Yeah.
- [08:42]
B
So, like, that was. That was like, I was so invigorated and energized by the business, but I was so depleted by the rest of my life, something else that I was like, what am I even doing? So those were hard moments. And now literally, I feel like in the last year is where I feel like I've gotten my footing a lot better. Not from a business sense, but more in my own brand, in my mind, in my vision and community based relationships. I hated at the beginning of my business was that I. No one would really be willing to talk about it. It was very cagey. Like, what do you charge? No one would talk like they're seeing
- [09:27]
A
you as competition, not any sort of like mentee. And it's correct. There's enough to go around, as we've seen.
- [09:34]
B
And that was like such a different experience for me because HR is like, you really want to mentor. You really want to build people up.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That must have been pretty drama.
- [09:42]
B
And it just wasn't. That wasn't the case.
- [09:44]
A
I mean, I feel the same way. The design community is so crucial to being in this business.
- [09:49]
B
I think I feel like in the last two. Well, probably post pandemic, maybe, maybe it has been much more of a, like, open door of conversation, meeting up, dinners, events. Like, it's just a lot More inviting. And I don't know if that's just, like, certain, like, a transition and age and, like, kind of generational shift.
- [10:15]
A
The old guard has sort of.
- [10:17]
B
And maybe just, like, not been as
- [10:20]
A
involved or something, sort of taken a step back or if they haven't, they're the people in the old guard who would have welcomed it. Like, they're the ones who were more progressive. The ones who were less, I feel, are not as involved.
- [10:32]
B
I agree.
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A
In, like, the Chicago design scene anymore.
- [10:34]
B
Yeah. That.
- [10:35]
A
Or if they are, we've just made, like, our own little scene, and I
- [10:37]
B
think that's maybe part of it. It was, like, the community and, like, the village kind of got built, and it's a little bit more. I mean, it's. I think it's pretty inclusive, but, like, it certainly is. There's so many more people to, like, just ping with a quick question and it. Not coming for my, like, lunch. Like, it's just. It's a lot more.
- [10:56]
A
Well, and I feel like it used
- [10:57]
B
to be a lot of posturing. Like. Yeah.
- [10:59]
A
Years ago, when I would be at a design thing, people would be like, oh, and I have this job, and I have this job, and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And they only talked about, like, all the amazing things they were doing.
- [11:08]
B
You're making me uncomfortable.
- [11:09]
A
And half of it is not real.
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B
That's not real.
- [11:11]
A
Half of it isn't even true. And they're just saying it to make themselves feel better. And that is not interesting to me. No, I want to know what went wrong. I want to know what is.
- [11:19]
B
But you're trolling.
- [11:21]
A
I mean, I had a thing the other week of. And I called a designer friend, and I was like, I need to be talked off a ledge. Like, I'm not okay. And, like, what do you do in this situation? And she was just like, yeah, that's not gonna happen.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah.
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A
But sometimes you just need another person who's in it as much as you are.
- [11:41]
B
Yeah.
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A
Because, like, my mom, who I love dearly, can be like, it's not that big of a deal. And I'm like, don't say that ever again. Like, I do not.
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B
Lock it up, Mom.
- [11:51]
A
But then another designer will be like, it's okay. I've been through this, and everything's gonna be fine. And you can sort of, like, take a deep breath.
- [11:58]
B
And honestly, like, it almost always will feel like it is the end of the world, because it is your business, it's your integrity, it's your livelihood, it's the baby. You've built. It's all these things. It's like so precious. But if someone is threatening that, be it like a rogue client or a crazy contractor or whatever it is. Like if something feels like a threat, it feels that much more intense. And it feels like you have to do something immediately. And sometimes the best thing is actually just to wait. Hang on.
- [12:33]
A
Yep. To not do anything. I think that is something I've learned recently of like, yeah, half. Well. And something I learned really maybe when I got my work phone was like, oftentimes a lot of this stuff resolves itself. If I'm not available for two hours, half the life is already resolved by the time I'm out. Not always. But like, sometimes time is actually a blessing. And we're just so used to like, must fix right now. Right. Because this is a very fast. Can be a very fast paced industry. But like, is your urgency my emergency? Like, does it have to be?
- [13:07]
B
I used to say to my team, I'm like, don't let their anxiety be your anxiety.
- [13:10]
A
Yeah. Like, it's true.
- [13:12]
B
There are timelines, there are things that people have in their heads. Even when we said don't host Thanksgiving, they're still planning on Thanksgiving. Like it's not gonna be done for Thanksgiving. And then they still plan. I'm like. And then they're mad when it's not done. We had this conversation and I told you and you agreed not to remember,
- [13:28]
A
we talked about this. Here we are.
- [13:29]
B
And I'm now going to try to land this plane for you for Thanksgiving. And I've just, honestly, I think we've talked about this a little bit too. Like I feel like with in my 30s, I was so concerned with every nuanced detail and I'm still concerned about the details. But like it was like every inch I moved, I need. I had to be so intentional and perfect. Perfect and wrapped up in a bow and couldn't be like even show like the humanity in it. And now I think it's. I just. At 48, you just care a lot less.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah.
- [14:05]
B
And so they don't care about what I'm doing. I care immensely. But I know it's like less about sweating the small stuff. You know, when it's a big thing, you know how to address it. If you don't, you figure it out. But it's not like five alarm fire. Every crazy email you get and you
- [14:22]
A
can't be that way. You'll go burn yourself into the ground fast. I mean like within a couple years,
- [14:27]
B
you'll lose your Mind.
- [14:28]
A
Gracie and I talk about it a lot. Cause she was here in the very beginning. And like, I mean, there are certain things that would put me in the fetal position. It was just like, I couldn't even fathom that bad thing happening right then. And that exact same thing would be like, fourth on my list today of the bad things that happened today. So much so that I wouldn't even remember to say anything to anyone about it.
- [14:48]
B
Correct.
- [14:49]
A
Like, that's.
- [14:50]
B
It's that under the radar. Yeah, that's right.
- [14:51]
A
And sometimes I'll like, call Sam and be like, we have a problem. And then I'll get a different call, and then she'll call me back a couple hours later and was like, what was that problem? And it's like, nevermind. It's actually not a problem and it's fine.
- [15:01]
B
Yeah.
- [15:02]
A
And that's the only way to get through this. And to the point where sometimes I feel bad because I think sometimes my employees are more worried than I am. And I have to be like, it's okay.
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B
It's okay.
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A
It's gonna be fun.
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B
Also. That's like. That's part of. That's the learning process. It is. It's like you get to watch somebody else, like, be cool, calm, collected, and like, you will get there too. But, like, I was that anxious. Like, I would never really let it show, but I was spun up all the time. And now I'm like, for what?
- [15:34]
A
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, there are still things. I got on the phone the other day and I was like, did I just bankrupt the company? Like, those words came out of my mouth and I was like, oh, fuck. Like, there's.
- [15:44]
B
Yeah, I honestly, there's. I lose a lot of sleep. Which that is, I think, just comes with being an entrepreneur.
- [15:50]
A
We're just in a very litigious period of time right now, too.
- [15:55]
B
It feels like I, at this point, I truly fundamentally cannot watch the news, which, for better or for worse, like, I just. I will not leave my house. I would be an absolute blob and good to no one if I did that. So I've had to completely remove it from my purview. And when those little tiny little nuggets slip through their cracks, or my husband is typically like, hey, you should actually know so and so died today.
- [16:23]
A
Or like, this is happening. Something's going on that you should be.
- [16:26]
B
When my son comes home, he's like, are we in World War 3? I was like, huh.
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A
I don't know, actually.
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B
Is that what they're calling it now, like, but that's how off. Like, that's how far removed I am. And I honestly, it's the only way I can survive. You also have three children and they're
- [16:41]
A
living in the world, in this world. Yes, it's very hard. I would feel like I would have to be the same way if I was sending kids to school every day.
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B
It's very difficult.
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A
Like, I would have. There's no way that I could. And I'm, I already am. Like my therapist and I decided I get one hour, I mean, of news time a day.
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B
Honestly, it would. It's like soul crushing for so many reasons. But like, I, I do think our profession has been so deeply impacted and I'm not sure that's gonna stop. Like, that feels like something that will continue and evolve. And I'm worried every day. But like, it kind of, I guess teeters back and forth from, are there ever going to be like skilled workers again? Like, are we going to have trades? Are there trade schools? Like, are they fully booked? Like, why don't trade schools advertise? And like, these are the conversations I
- [17:31]
A
have all the time too. Yep.
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B
Oh, my kids are definitely going to trade school. Like done and done. And I.
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A
The future forecasting.
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B
I just don't see, like, how this all works out.
- [17:43]
A
Yeah, no, I mean, it's the longevity of it and it's why like, I think sometimes. Oop, gonna get into a hot topic. But I think sometimes, like design influencers who are not designers. I think maybe part of that that frustrates me so much is like they aren't thinking about any of that. None of that is sort of running through their siphon. I don't think so. I don't think people who are designing their personal home and getting famous on Instagram because of it and then taking on clients, I don't think they like down because they didn't, I shouldn't say only because they didn't go to design school. But often they're not as well versed in construction, so they don't even necessarily understand where our trades are going. And I think as we democratize interior design, which is great, it also means that we need more tradespeople. Like, that just has to happen. And so when there are certain tradespeople who are being taken up by lower skilled work that someone can pay more for, we are ruining our own market. Like, we are pricing ourselves out of our own market. And that is something that feels especially in Chicago. I know you relate to this. Like, Chicago is not New York. And it's not LA. Occasionally, people are building 10, 20, $30 million houses, but that is like, there's five a year and you know which designers on it. And, like, that's it. This is not like, you know, a. A billionaire from Russia is like, hiring a designer every day.
- [19:11]
B
Incorrect.
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A
Just. That's not how this works. And so the fact that we're sort of staring down the barrel of, like, either these young people have got to get into the trades.
- [19:20]
B
Yes.
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A
And I mean, I feel like I'm have to, like, shout it from the rooftops. Like, you can make so much money. I'm literally begging. Like, I am begging.
- [19:27]
B
Like, the crazy part about this is, like, there are so many. And I have two neurodivergent children and a neurodivergent husband. There are so many people who would benefit from these professions from just the way their brain.
- [19:40]
A
Brain works 100%. And a lot of school does not work for a lot of kids. Correct.
- [19:43]
B
Like, that is one of the hardest things for a lot of kids. And then young adults is to understand and really be good at school.
- [19:52]
A
Yep. And they're being forced into this box of, like, school is the only way, in my opinion.
- [19:57]
B
That's.
- [19:57]
A
I. I think we're actually making. We're sending them to the wrong side. Like, we. Why are we not focusing on. On marketable skills? Like, that's the way this interview.
- [20:07]
B
Like, I don't know in your. If your high school had, like, a trades program, but, like, mine did. Mine did. And it was like, my brother, he went out and they. They built a house. Like, oh, and the question.
- [20:17]
A
Auto body shop at my high school.
- [20:18]
B
Yeah.
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A
Like, would you want to know something crazy in Georgia, which I talk a lot of shit about the south, but I'm gonna give it its. I'm gonna give it its flowers right now. In Georgia, because of the lottery, you can get as many. You can go to community college and get as many degrees as you want for free.
- [20:33]
B
I'm sorry, what?
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A
Yep.
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B
Yep.
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A
In Georgia, if you are a Georgia
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B
resident, you can just go and go
- [20:39]
A
to community college going and keep going forever.
- [20:43]
B
Yep.
- [20:44]
A
I mean, obviously you would need a job to, like, keep your life going, but, like, you can go and get your cosmetology license, and if you don't like that, you can go and do automotive, you can go do H Vac, you can go, like, you can literally be anything you want to be. And there are way more skilled tradespeople in the south than there are up here.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah.
- [21:01]
A
Because where I'M from. It's not seen as this. Like, like half my graduating class didn't go to college.
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B
Yeah, like that.
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A
And so like, it's not seen as like the only way. Or at least it didn't feel like that when I was growing up. Like, if anything, I didn't know this was a job, but I sure no
- [21:19]
B
one ever told me this was a job.
- [21:20]
A
Like trades were a job. Like, I certainly was aware of that. And so I think that what I found in Chicago is that like, obviously there are very intelligent people who want their kids to go to really good schools and all of that. But in some ways we're removing the opportunity of letting these kids do something that could be as successful, if not more.
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B
Except here's the one thing is that like now college is so outrageous.
- [21:46]
A
Oh, I mean, it's outrageous. It doesn't like a state school.
- [21:51]
B
You cannot make that make sense for me if my kid is not that academic.
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A
Mommy, I want to be a chemist. Like, maybe go do something else.
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B
Please go for it. But like, I'm just not. I'm not going to be pushing four year college.
- [22:05]
A
I think that's so fun the way that we were.
- [22:08]
B
Because it was the only.
- [22:09]
A
That was the only way we were told, you will work at McDonald's if you do not go to college.
- [22:14]
B
Correct.
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A
That's what was pushed.
- [22:15]
B
And I, I mean, I did what
- [22:17]
A
I was told same.
- [22:18]
B
I went and I got a degree and I like, I mean, it was in business management. Again, like, no one said that this was a career. And I just assumed, like, honestly, I like cringe every time someone says this. But like the interior decorator was the only. That was like, it was literally, you go help. Like this woman came over one time with like books of wallpaper. And I remember being like, oh, that's cool. But this wallpaper's ugly. Like, where's the rest?
- [22:43]
A
Where's the creativity you're picking from?
- [22:45]
B
Like, no, you can only choose from like these like six books. And I was like, surely that's not right. Come to find out.
- [22:52]
A
Give you some time.
- [22:52]
B
There's an entire world of text and wallpaper and you go nuts. Go nuts.
- [22:58]
A
No, that's so true. What you're exposed to. I mean. Yeah, yeah. The first time I ever got a sofa upholstered, I went to. We drove an hour and a half to a literal barn.
- [23:08]
B
Like, to a literal barn for a second.
- [23:10]
A
And they had like a bunch of different bolts.
- [23:12]
B
Yeah.
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A
And I got to mix and match and pick out all my fabrics. I was in there for like six hours.
- [23:16]
B
Those two women were like, please, I
- [23:19]
A
bet you have to go. My mom was like, we have to drive backwards.
- [23:23]
B
We're wrapping up here.
- [23:25]
A
I still have the sofa. It's literally in my office. It's right there.
- [23:28]
B
Oh, it's the one at the front.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, it's the one. It was my parents first piece of furniture and it's been reupholstered like 50 times.
- [23:33]
B
Oh, my God, that's so special.
- [23:34]
A
I love it. But I remember being like getting this like, surge of adrenaline looking at all the fabrics and being like, I can do anything. Like, it's.
- [23:41]
B
There's not much that replaces that. And like, you don't. I guess I never really. I guess I had that in my HR career. But it would be like when I knew I had a candidate that was like, this is a absolute slam dunk. It's that same, like, gut you. You feel it in your bones. You're like, yep, this is perfect. But like, that still applies now. Those moments are fewer and farther in between, but when they happen, it's like, oh, thank God. This is why I do.
- [24:07]
A
This is the best feeling in the world. This is why I do this.
- [24:10]
B
Preserve this as long as we can.
- [24:12]
A
Can we jar this? Actually, yeah, exactly.
- [24:14]
B
Keep it contained. Contained, contained.
- [24:21]
A
Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing.
- [24:35]
B
Right?
- [24:36]
A
Then I tried Programa, and I realized I wasn't managing. I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your project schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Without it. Okay, well, yes. You know the famous next question? I do. What's your advice?
- [25:34]
B
Throwing shit away. That's a great one. I love like, and this is honestly, it ends in tears a lot for my kids. They come home with so much stuff. Like, it's just, it's unfathomable. It's a lot of stuff and it's very special and precious to them.
- [25:48]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [25:49]
B
And I don't need every math sheet that you've had for the year. So I, I, I have this bin at the back. Actually, it's the bin. It's the bin you gave me to take. I don't even know what I took home from the event. And I have it at the back and it's full of their random odds and ends. Like Gabby fucking cat ears that talk. And you have to. The battery needs to be replaced. But also all their little tchotchkes and art. And so all the crap that comes home, I leave it in there for like a day, two tops. And then when they leave, I throw it away. But where this has really caught me is if I don't bury it far enough and they open the trash.
- [26:35]
A
Oh, they're, oh, you are dead full.
- [26:39]
B
Like you would assume I, yes, I absolutely murdered somebody. Nope, just, this was so special to me.
- [26:47]
A
How could you throw it away?
- [26:49]
B
And I honestly think I remember the same thing with my mother.
- [26:53]
A
That kid that was like, throw away what?
- [26:56]
B
Like, no, I think I had the same reactions, however.
- [27:01]
A
But I would be you with kids,
- [27:03]
B
I be like, at 40. My mom's like, okay, this stuff's yours now. And she gave me this big ass bin that's as wide as my arms and it was full of all of my stuff from elementary school. I'm like, why'd you even bother to keep it?
- [27:15]
A
Yeah, I don't want this.
- [27:16]
B
And she's like, well, I don't know if I thought maybe you would want it someday. I'm like, I don't.
- [27:20]
A
For what?
- [27:20]
B
So now I get to throw it away. But like, it's that you're really doing
- [27:24]
A
your kids a favor. Here's what you're saying.
- [27:25]
B
Honestly, I am reducing what they will have to deal with much further down the line.
- [27:31]
A
I will say that as someone who I just moved and so I just realized I have.
- [27:35]
B
Is it purging the best?
- [27:36]
A
Lots of collections of things, yes. But the feeling I donated like six 30 gallon bags to Salvation army clothes.
- [27:44]
B
Cheap thrill.
- [27:45]
A
And I was like, this is the, this is drugs. This is amazing.
- [27:50]
B
That's how I feel to the point
- [27:51]
A
where I was like, maybe I threw too many things away. Now I have nothing to put on My body.
- [27:55]
B
You're good. You'll find new things.
- [27:57]
A
But no, that feeling of, I think it's valuable to be able to part with things. Thank you and goodbye. Because otherwise it can get hairy.
- [28:05]
B
I mean, honestly. But I guess the caveat to this is I have those systems air quotes. But what you don't know is, like, I have a couple of areas in my house that are out of control as.
- [28:21]
A
Duh. That's like, life.
- [28:22]
B
But, like, my husband is like, I can't even walk in this room. Why is it so bad? We have to get this out of here. I'm like, I think we just did. But, like, this is it. No, it's bad. So, like, there's certain things where it's like. It's like a Jack in the box, like, kind of flies out at you.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:42]
B
But most of the time, I just can't stand looking at it. Like, I need my counters to be cleared off.
- [28:46]
A
I cannot put away. I don't care.
- [28:49]
B
I just start putting shit away. Like, it doesn't even matter where.
- [28:51]
A
It doesn't have to go in the right place. It rarely does.
- [28:53]
B
Gotta go. I can't feel this thing. I can't have it in my line
- [28:55]
A
of vision because sometimes I'll just look up and my brain is so cluttered that if there's clutter around me and, like, I can't focus, I get targeted
- [29:03]
B
by a lot of these memes on Instagram, and they're so freaking accurate. It's like, my coffee smells like I'm about to throw shit away this morning. Like. And it's so true. That's like something hits just right. And you're like, nothing safe.
- [29:17]
A
Nope. Sometimes I come in the office and I will just see and I will do the same. And they're like, sorry, what is happening?
- [29:27]
B
I'll do the same thing. It's. Maybe it's a sickness.
- [29:30]
A
I don't know. I mean, of all vices, I think that's a pretty good one. Pretty good one. Pretty good one. Okay, let's get into a confession. I have a crazy story to tell. Well, I'm excited to hear it. A few years back, I took on a project for a client I'd worked with before. I had designed his primary home for him and his wife. So when he reached out again asking if I'd be open to designing a home for his sister, I was happy to do so. He said he's financing the project, but he was very well off, so that made sense to me. I met the sister early on. And she was completely normal, friendly and easy to work with. The only thing I noticed was that she had a different last name. But he had already explained that she'd been married before and was recently divorced. Starting over. So, like, that makes sense. Sure. She also mentioned still having a place in another city. So it made sense that he was taking the lead on a lot of things. But as I'm working with them, I noticed that they seem very close, which some families are. But it just kept feeling off in some way. I couldn't put my finger on it. No, it was things I couldn't really describe, like just the manner in which they spoke to each other and their body language. Like she was always touching his arm and they just seemed very comfortable with each other. The first moment I really couldn't ignore it was on site. We were walking the job, talking through electrical placement, and he had his hand on her waist. Sorry, sorry.
- [30:55]
B
No, no, no. Oh, God.
- [30:57]
A
I was like, yeah. Anyway, now to the next room.
- [31:00]
B
I hope they're like not blood related siblings. Okay, keep going. I'm just not sure how this is going to work out.
- [31:06]
A
Not even a quick touch. He left it there. And I remember thinking, okay, that's not how I interact with my brother. After that, I couldn't unsee it. I was hyper aware of how they interacted. I started overanalyzing how they spoke to each other, noticing that they never talked about anything family related. I even tried to research her online to see if I could find out any information, but all of her accounts were private. Also, you don't talk about family at all with your sibling. You're not like mom and dad. Like, when you're around your sibling, you're naturally gonna talk more about that or home.
- [31:35]
B
Like you're referencing in something.
- [31:37]
A
You both have a shared language, correct? Like that. That's a major red flag.
- [31:41]
B
That's right.
- [31:43]
A
Okay. All of this led up to one morning that I got to the house early for a meeting. I was sitting in my car answering emails and saw their car pull up and park across the street from me in front of the house. I grabbed my things, got out of the car and began walking over to meet them. And that's when I saw them kiss.
- [31:58]
B
Ew. God.
- [31:59]
A
On the lips. And then noticed me walking up to them. What?
- [32:05]
B
Hang on.
- [32:06]
A
I stopped and panicked and just gestured something like, I'll meet you inside. Which I can. I did perfectly. That's not what I would. No, no, don't worry. I'll just have to go inside. No, no, no problem.
- [32:17]
B
I think you need a lot of Botox for that moment. Not to be written all over your face. All over your face.
- [32:24]
A
With a fake laugh. And walked in. My mind racing. A couple minutes later, the former client. Former client walked in without his sister. He looked so embarrassed and apologized to me. And I really didn't even pry. I was fully prepared to pretend I hadn't seen anything, but he just started talking. He started on about, obviously, she's not my sister. And then referred to her as his, quote, friend, which. Come on, just call it an affair at this point.
- [32:51]
B
Ew. Come on.
- [32:53]
A
He said it was imperative that his wife didn't find out about this. I'm not sure what kind of lie he had fabricated to explain to her where he had been or where this money had been going.
- [33:02]
B
Where's the money?
- [33:03]
A
But honestly, I don't care to know. The whole thing made me feel sick, and I just wanted to wrap up the project and get out of there, which, for better or worse, was what I did. I felt so conflicted about it morally, but I really didn't know what to do in that situation. And I do honestly still think about it often. So I'm curious. What would you have done if this had happened to you?
- [33:21]
B
Honestly? I have a friend who can do background checks, and I would've been like, hey, can you just run these couple of names? I need something. Susan. Like, also, did they look like siblings?
- [33:34]
A
That's the other thing. It's like, did they. Was she blonde and he's brunette with brown eyes.
- [33:38]
B
The thing that's getting me from the jump is that he was paying for it.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah.
- [33:42]
B
Like, love my siblings.
- [33:45]
A
Never.
- [33:47]
B
Don't think there's an amount of money that I would end up having where I would be able to, like, buy gold.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess. Unless you're just like, this was, like, stupid money.
- [33:59]
B
Sure. But even, like, maybe she, like, saved his life.
- [34:02]
A
I mean, she's not his sister, so
- [34:03]
B
I don't know why.
- [34:04]
A
I mean, it's not his real sister.
- [34:06]
B
Then I'm just like, I'm. No, it would choose cousin. Like, choose anything other than, like, a direct sibling. I feel like that's so odd to, like, why use that.
- [34:17]
A
If you're gonna lie, why say it's your sister? Because what happens if you guys. I mean, why is. I mean. Yeah.
- [34:25]
B
And also get more, like, in character if you're.
- [34:29]
A
That's what I mean.
- [34:29]
B
Touching each other.
- [34:30]
A
We gotta be a little bit more careful. If you're saying that we're siblings to people. Would you rather people think it's incest or nefarious?
- [34:37]
B
Like that's the. That's where I.
- [34:39]
A
One's worse than the other.
- [34:40]
B
That's what I'm. That's what I'm getting at. It's like affair seems like pretty chilling. What it is. Be like, she's my mistress.
- [34:47]
A
I'm building a house for her. This is what I want to do. Take it and leave it.
- [34:51]
B
And honestly, I would have a problem with that like as a designer. But I don't know why that was the ruse that was planned.
- [35:00]
A
I have to assume they assumed she wouldn't take on the job since it says she's worked with them. Or they. I don't know if it's she.
- [35:07]
B
Yeah. Why would you. You've.
- [35:11]
A
You've had she knows your wife.
- [35:12]
B
Longer term relationship working with this person. You're stupid.
- [35:16]
A
Why not hire another designer for your mistress that doesn't know your wife?
- [35:21]
B
Find somebody that's completely unattached.
- [35:24]
A
She was that talented. I mean, I guess good for her. But Jesus, that is.
- [35:28]
B
That just sucks. Cuz that puts you in such a.
- [35:29]
A
Such a bad position.
- [35:30]
B
Such a weird. Like it's an awful position to be in. It's like a moral compass problem that
- [35:37]
A
someone else has put you in without your consent.
- [35:40]
B
And then you're also like, you have to wade through that shit. That's not fair.
- [35:45]
A
No, it's putting his shit on her. I mean the lie of it all is the insidious part to me. What would you have done if this happened to you? I honestly don't know. I feel like there's a lot of variables. How big is their budget, how long have I been on the project?
- [36:03]
B
Morally I would be like, like, sorry.
- [36:05]
A
It comes down to that sometimes and
- [36:07]
B
it kind of does. Like I would. If it's the kind of show where I can't sleep at night, about the actual integrity or the like quality of the individual. Honestly, like if you're a bad person, I'm not into it. Like I don't care how much money you breed. But like there's a. I'm just trying to think about if I put myself in her shoes, their shoes, and if this were one of my repeat clients, I would be like gutted.
- [36:36]
A
Yep.
- [36:37]
B
By not having read them as a person.
- [36:42]
A
Better like that I would like, how did I get in bed with this person that would do this?
- [36:47]
B
That's kind of like where I think I would come from. But in the end, yeah, it comes down to like, what. What are you comfortable with?
- [36:56]
A
What's so interesting to me is why aren't people just saying that they're in an open relationship? No one's gonna check that. Like, that's very. I'm genuinely. And this man.
- [37:05]
B
They would leave it at that.
- [37:07]
A
That's what I mean. Yes. Like, the designer would just be like, okay, open relationship, awkward. I'm surely not gonna talk to the wife about that because, like, I don't know their dynamic.
- [37:16]
B
Yes.
- [37:17]
A
But like, he literally says to her he wants. His wife can't know. That's when you're put in a position that's like, so I'm now co signing your cheating, your lie and covering it up. And covering it up. Not only co signing it, covering it up. Which, like, to be clear, not at all questioning this person. This is a very tough spot to be in predicament. But I do think, yeah. I mean, like, what if you've built this house from the ground up and, you know, like, that's six months from being done. Like, I. It's too. It's not black and white. No, it's not.
- [37:51]
B
I agree. There's too many variables where. If it were at the beginning or at the end, that's one thing. But if you're dead set, like. Or dense in the middle and like
- [38:02]
A
money tied up with them, sometimes you have a retainer you can't return. Like, there's a lot that's.
- [38:06]
B
Or shit's been purchased.
- [38:07]
A
Yeah. And then you're stuck with it. And if you blow it all up, it's. You're stuck with. Yeah, it.
- [38:12]
B
That's a. I'm honestly probably comes into
- [38:14]
A
like a legal 100 does. I would probably call my attorney and be like, what do I do?
- [38:18]
B
I think that's right.
- [38:19]
A
Yeah.
- [38:20]
B
That's.
- [38:21]
A
Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's like
- [38:23]
B
something we have to put in our contracts now.
- [38:24]
A
That's like, apparently so.
- [38:25]
B
Don't freaking lie.
- [38:26]
A
If you have a mistress. What you're like, at least be honest about it. It's such a crazy thing to have think. But like, together.
- [38:35]
B
Only a man would do that, by the way.
- [38:36]
A
No, literally, a woman would never.
- [38:41]
B
No.
- [38:41]
A
Ever. Ever. I mean, it's.
- [38:43]
B
At least they come with a better story.
- [38:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:46]
B
Something far more believable than that.
- [38:48]
A
The other thing I'm thinking is like, do we really think that the wife doesn't know there's no way if he's building a fucking house for her.
- [38:57]
B
There's no way.
- [38:57]
A
There's no way in hell she knows and is either getting her shit together to file.
- [39:03]
B
Yeah.
- [39:03]
A
Or is hanging on for whatever her reasons are. And that's completely up to her. I may be able to, like, justify it to myself that way of like. Like, I. If he's this outward about it, clearly she knows.
- [39:16]
B
Yes.
- [39:17]
A
And, like, they have to deal with that on their own. It's a. That's. But that makes my stomach hurt. Like, even saying that I'm, like, maybe I actually wouldn't feel that way. Like, I think it's easier to say than it is to, like. Cause I don't know this person. But I'm trying to put myself in the position of, like, my clients have gotten divorced. And if I had, like, been in that. Cause, you know, typically I'm closer to the wife.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah.
- [39:39]
A
Like, rarely am I ever, like, just chopping up with the husband. Like, that's just not really happening. Believe it or not. My personality really isn't suited for that. And so I feel like. I feel like I would be like, yeah, I have to tell her because I, like, feel friends with her unless she does.
- [39:58]
B
Fundamentally.
- [39:59]
A
I don't know.
- [40:01]
B
That is the sort of thing where I would want someone to tell me. Me.
- [40:04]
A
Oh, me too. So if that's a great point.
- [40:07]
B
Actually, I would really prefer. Yes. Like, that would actually. I don't know exactly how I would approach the business angle of it, but the client relationship. She has to know.
- [40:20]
A
Yeah.
- [40:21]
B
And that feels like the actual right thing to do.
- [40:28]
A
I think you're right about that.
- [40:29]
B
The business piece. It's a little bit muddy for me on what the actual right thing is to do.
- [40:33]
A
I think so too. The ethical piece. Easy. You know what you should do? It's the business piece that muddies everything up. Okay. We gotta give some penance, which. Oh, God.
- [40:43]
B
Okay. So, like. And I've literally listened to every single podcast. But, like, penance is, like, not. Is not the equivalent of a punishment. Or.
- [40:49]
A
It is. It can be. It doesn't have to be. You just feel at the vibe. Right. This man should be punished, in my opinion.
- [40:55]
B
So I think his wife needs to take him for all he's worth.
- [40:59]
A
I completely agree.
- [41:00]
B
Hit the road.
- [41:00]
A
Take the house, too.
- [41:01]
B
Yep.
- [41:02]
A
Her house now. Exactly. I think that she should keep every single piece of evidence, every everything, hire the best attorney she can afford and take him to the fucking cleaners. Yep.
- [41:13]
B
I agree.
- [41:14]
A
And then we'll find out if the mistress is still with him after that.
- [41:17]
B
Not much to be there for.
- [41:18]
A
No.
- [41:19]
B
I had to guess go from, he's
- [41:21]
A
building me a house. To he's destitute. I can't imagine she's sticking around. I can't.
- [41:26]
B
It's not exactly. What she got two birds.
- [41:28]
A
One.
- [41:28]
B
She signed up. She signed up for a new build.
- [41:33]
A
Yeah.
- [41:34]
B
She got like an eviction notice. You're done.
- [41:40]
A
That's literally what it is. Okay. And then designer. I don't even. I'm not even gonna go with penance. Cause I just feel like it's so muddy. I don't feel any. Like, I don't feel like I can give anything good or anything bad. It's just. I think the penance was having to deal with this situation.
- [41:55]
B
I want her to make sure she finds a really great attorney. That's a great point. I can cover every aspect of this and protect her. Like, that's great penance. Keep them on retainer. Because you never know when you need them.
- [42:09]
A
You never know when these people are gonna pop up. Pop up, pop up, pop up. Confession number two. Number two. Number two, number two, number two. Years ago, I was working on a project for this extremely wealthy, very elderly client, old money, multiple homes, very successful businessman. To give you an idea of who he was as a client, he was sort of disconnected. Not in a bad way. But I think because he had done projects like this so many times and had so many houses over the years, we mostly called or met in person, coordinated by his assistant, which I insisted on because I'd only ever get emails from him that were like, quote, looks good, sent from my iPhone. Not always the level of detail I needed. Which isn't that infuriating when you ask like freaking class 900 questions and they're just like, okay, sounds good. You're like, do what?
- [42:56]
B
All of the above.
- [42:57]
A
All of it sounds good. Because I'm gonna run with.
- [42:59]
B
That's what I'm assuming you said better. It's all good.
- [43:03]
A
Because sounds good is all good. Yeah. The space we were working on was a unit in this beautiful original building on the Upper east side. It had beautiful architectural detail and great bones. It was going to be a great project. We were maybe two months in when communication stopped entirely. We were in the middle of a decision making stage, so it was super inconvenient. I tried calling, emailed as much as I could without coming off as harassing, which is always an interesting game to play of.
- [43:28]
B
Like, honestly, the communication in my HR background comes in so handy for all this kind of stuff.
- [43:33]
A
I have to leave it, you know? Exactly.
- [43:35]
B
Crucial conversations. There's literally a book on it.
- [43:37]
A
Uh huh. Yeah. Okay.
- [43:39]
B
Used to make all the managers read it.
- [43:40]
A
Maybe I need to read that, huh? Okay, that sounds interesting.
- [43:47]
B
We get offline about that for sure.
- [43:49]
A
I didn't hear from him or even his assistant for almost two weeks. I kind of thought maybe they were having a hard time making a decision on a few things I'd sent over or had something come up, business wise, that had pulled his attention. So I kept moving along as much as I could while waiting for approvals that never came. More days pass, I move on to my other projects. Then finally I got an email back from his assistant. I opened it fully expecting something like they're canceling the project or he was traveling and forgot to tell me. I did not expect to read that he had died.
- [44:18]
B
Oh, Jesus.
- [44:19]
A
Yeah, but that's what the email said. He had passed away. And the assistant apologized for the delay in telling us because there had been, quote, multiple concurrent matters at the time and the correspondence had been unintentionally overlooked.
- [44:33]
B
How old is this guy?
- [44:34]
A
She said he was old. She said very elderly. So maybe he lived a good life. Shoot, I hope he had multiple homes.
- [44:42]
B
I mean, but also doing that at the end of, like, that, like knocking on death's door, end of your life
- [44:49]
A
and you're doing a project like, gotta
- [44:52]
B
put your energy somewhere.
- [44:52]
A
Yes, right. She also says he's a businessman, like in current continuous. He was currently working. I'm. I'm picturing him at like 92. Like I'm picturing this man.
- [45:06]
B
I'm picturing what's his name that Anna Nicole Smith married. That's who I'm picturing. That's who I'm picturing is what's his name?
- [45:15]
A
Oh my God. What is his name? Oh, God.
- [45:17]
B
Hang on. It's gonna come to me.
- [45:19]
A
J. Howard Marshall. That's what it was, Howard. That man was old as shit, Tim.
- [45:25]
B
That's what I'm picturing. And if that's the case, then she should have gotten a real good look at him and made sure.
- [45:35]
A
How do you ask a prospective client, are you far enough away from death for us to do this project?
- [45:41]
B
I mean, you gotta give it to him. If he was like, still wanted to participate in the last chapter of his
- [45:49]
A
life, but also maybe he was like 75 and like, like very elderly means something else to her.
- [45:55]
B
I don't know, because that's a pre definitive term. Elderly is one thing.
- [46:02]
A
Very, very elderly is giving 90s implies.
- [46:05]
B
Yes, that implies above 80.
- [46:08]
A
Oh my God.
- [46:09]
B
Okay, sorry, we went on a tangent here.
- [46:14]
A
Oh my God. Oh, okay, okay. Which is where I started laughing a bit. Us too. Because I'm sitting there putting into perspective that I've been anxiously awaiting feedback when for them, obviously my email thr was not exactly the priority. I sent back my condolences and asked them to let me know how best to proceed. Which like, yeah, that's so awkward. What do you do next? Like, do you have a retainer? Do you keep that?
- [46:37]
B
Like, yeah, I do keep the retainer.
- [46:38]
A
Questions? Yes. A few days later, the assistant followed up and looped in the estate's legal team. They informed me that they were going to pause on the project, at least temporarily while everything was being sorted out.
- [46:48]
B
Did someone else have a power of attorney? Like he can't be the only party yet.
- [46:54]
A
Well, I'm wondering if there was like a full estate. Like he had like an estate trust. Yeah. And then those are the people who are.
- [47:02]
B
Well, then it just kicks in.
- [47:04]
A
I know, but isn't it something about like your, your property, something can override your will and so sometimes then it has to go to probate.
- [47:13]
B
Like if you're.
- [47:13]
A
That's a designated something, it can override your will.
- [47:17]
B
That's if it is not like power of attorney is different than. Well, yeah, if you're a trustee wasn't
- [47:24]
A
sick, he probably didn't have a power of attorney.
- [47:26]
B
At very elderly. You have a power of attorney. You've given your. Like.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that makes sense. But I guess if he's like, this man doesn't seem like he thought he was ever going to die.
- [47:35]
B
Can we get an age check on this poor man?
- [47:37]
A
Can someone write in? Because we have questions. No, but it is kind of giving like Peter Pan, never die, never grow up. Because you're building a house. You're still running a business in your 90s, presumably like, like that's that all kind of traps to me of like he would still be sort of like in the mindset of like I'm young and nothing's gonna happen.
- [47:58]
B
Young at heart, but not young enough. So sorry sir.
- [48:05]
A
Nothing could move forward until the estate was formally organized and always decided who had decision making authority, what was happening with the property, whether it was being kept, transferred or sold. Eventually I was notified that the estate had decided not to move forward with the project. The apartment was going to be sold as is. They honored everything up to that point. I was paid out for all completed work, which thankfully was clearly outlined in the contract. But that was it. No continuation, no redesign, no new client stepping in, just a clean stop. And that was that. So when I say I've had all kinds of experiences with clients, I really mean it. No kidding.
- [48:37]
B
From the grave.
- [48:38]
A
Can't say that I've had that experience.
- [48:40]
B
I honestly, there's, like, sometimes where I worry about this. Like, there have been a couple of clients where I'm like, either it's like, business stuff was really stressful, or. And I'm like, what would happen if they just, like, drop dead.
- [48:53]
A
Yes.
- [48:54]
B
Like, from stress, heart attack, like, whatever.
- [48:56]
A
Yep.
- [48:57]
B
And it's at this point, like, my clients are getting older the same way I'm getting older. Because, like, in my mind, I'm still, like, 24, but.
- [49:06]
A
What do you mean,
- [49:08]
B
but? Like, you forget that really healthy people in their 50s will just, like, drop dead.
- [49:15]
A
Yep. And no warning. It's completely out of nowhere.
- [49:19]
B
And, like, that's the demographic my clients are in. And it feels. Obviously, that can happen to anybody at any point, but you almost. There probably needs to be a clause for that.
- [49:29]
A
Honestly. Yeah.
- [49:31]
B
Like, I know there's, like, force majeure, but, like, that's for. I guess. Would that be an outside force?
- [49:37]
A
Death.
- [49:37]
B
I think death is maybe listed in that. Maybe it is death pandemic. It's like, there's, like, three things.
- [49:44]
A
It's like, something we should call our attorneys about. I think my pittance for this episode is to call my attorney.
- [49:51]
B
There are. It's strictly absolute legal penance across the board.
- [49:56]
A
This time we are really, really doing some good ad work for attorneys.
- [50:01]
B
Yes.
- [50:02]
A
Because. But it's true. Some of these things are just. I mean, it sounds like this worked out, frankly, the only.
- [50:09]
B
Like, that's absolutely the best outcome you
- [50:11]
A
could ever hope for. It sounds like they didn't question it. They were just like, here's your money. Goodbye. Which, like, great. Honestly, sad for him. But it also doesn't sound like she was. They were like that emotionally attached.
- [50:24]
B
Yeah.
- [50:25]
A
So I think that would be the harder part is, like, if you're emotionally attached to your client or you've been working together for a long time.
- [50:31]
B
That I could not fathom.
- [50:32]
A
No, that would be.
- [50:33]
B
That will. That's gonna be the thing that absolutely breaks me.
- [50:37]
A
Yeah.
- [50:37]
B
I think losing that sort of human.
- [50:39]
A
Yeah, exactly. Like, connection to human relationship. Not about the design. Like, at some point you're just human to human. Yes. And that is the piece that. Yeah. Okay. Well, I have something new to worry about at night.
- [50:52]
B
No shit. Add it to the list. Cool.
- [50:56]
A
Okay.
- [50:57]
B
Just what I needed.
- [50:57]
A
Exactly. Thanks so much for that.
- [51:00]
B
Okay.
- [51:01]
A
Penance is, I guess, putting a death clause in Your contract for all of us. Everyone listening.
- [51:06]
B
Honestly, go ahead and call your attorney. Review and edit.
- [51:11]
A
So bad.
- [51:12]
B
So true.
- [51:12]
A
Though. Remember when I said Designer Receiving wasn't a sponsor and I just genuinely wanted to share how wonderful they are? That was true. But this episode is now officially sponsored by Designer Receiving. They work exclusively with interior designers to handle everything from receiving to storage and installation. But what truly sets them apart is how much they care and go out of their way to make sure every project goes smoothly. They're organized, tech forward and people focused, building genuine relationships with the designers they work with. If you want a partner who truly has your back, Designer Receiving is it. Check them out@designerreceiving.com. I have a couple questions for you.
- [52:05]
B
Okay.
- [52:05]
A
And then we'll be done. Great. You recently rebranded from Heywood Made to Klein Interiors.
- [52:10]
B
Yes.
- [52:10]
A
Can you tell us about that transition and why you made that decision?
- [52:13]
B
Yes. So this was something I had noodled on for, like, two years. Ish. And I had, like, I love my last name. My maiden name, like, Kelsey Klein was alliteration. There's just a lot of snappiness to it.
- [52:28]
A
Yep.
- [52:29]
B
I gave it up. Very unwillingly. I did it. I'm glad I did that piece of it. But even when Mike and I were first married, when I was in my HR role, the compromise was I get to keep my maiden name professionally. So, like, I was Kelsey Klein and then I was not Kelsey Haywood until I started Heywood Maid.
- [52:48]
A
Ah, okay.
- [52:49]
B
So it was. That was a big adjustment. And like nine years ago, like, that was like the thing you. It was like a kitschy, like, moment. And now, even within, like, the last two to three years, I was like, the caliber of the work has evolved so much. Like, this is no longer a representation of the brand, the work, like, where the business is headed. And I had a conversation with another designer at a dinner last summer, and she had just rebranded and renamed, and I was like, tell me more about that. And she was like, don't be afraid to just do it. Like, if you feel more connected to this, go for it. So, like, that almost gave me the confidence to actually move it forward. And it needed, like, I just needed to hit the full reset button. Like, new website, new typography, new, like, new color, everything. Like, it just needed to start fresh.
- [53:48]
A
How do you make that decision from a financial standpoint of, like, how are you? Like. Cause that's a big.
- [53:53]
B
It was a lot of money going up. Yeah, it was a lot.
- [53:57]
A
Which, like, worth it. Everything you did was absolutely worth It. I agree, but how. I'm just thinking from, like, also a listener standpoint of, like, did you just feel like I can't not do it? Like, it's not an option anymore?
- [54:08]
B
The. I mean, that's last. We've talked about this a lot, but, like, last year was, like, the hardest year I've ever had in business. And it allowed me to pull my head up far enough to look around and be like, all right, if I'm gonna change something, if I'm gonna make some drastic moves, it's right now. And I wouldn't have had time otherwise. It would have been competing with other things, all the things for my attention. So it worked out really well. Last year was a shit show, but the timing for me to make that decision worked out really well for it. Basically then set me up for this year, just, like, kicking it off. And I launched on the first day of the Lunar New Year. So it was the year of the fire horse. That was all intentional because I just felt like I was building towards something and it needed to be. And that was probably been one of the best things I've done for this business, short of, like, when I got my own space, like, in 2021. It's been a huge, amazing. It just.
- [55:06]
A
Congratulations.
- [55:07]
B
Thank you. Like, the presentation is different. The vibe is different. It's more polished. It feels more like me. I personally identify with it more, and it feels like an extension of, like, the stuff that lives in my head versus just this, like, fine website that doesn't really get the job you can do.
- [55:28]
A
But not wowing people. I also think. And hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn, but, like, this is your business. No shit. You are the one. And so I really love. And I will never change my name ever. But, like, no. And don't even worry. Cause it's not a thought in my head. I am. I don't understand it, frankly. I know a lot of people like it, especially in the South. It's like a whole.
- [55:51]
B
It is a thing. It is a thing. I wish I. I wish I've kept it.
- [55:55]
A
Even though you love your husband and
- [55:56]
B
you are part of your. It doesn't change anything.
- [55:58]
A
You did this. Your name should be on the door, not ultimately his. That's right. And I feel like there's a sense of ownership that comes with my name. Yes. Is on that door, which means everything ends with me and it's that.
- [56:11]
B
But I also feel like I. Every time I would say it out loud, I would. It would be. It didn't Sound like, like me. Like it would even hiding it in
- [56:23]
A
your head as you're saying it.
- [56:25]
B
Yes. It was like a very strange.
- [56:26]
A
Interesting. Which energetically. That probably was not helpful for bringing things in.
- [56:30]
B
I just didn't real. I didn't. Of course not. I didn't get that piece of it until like the first time. I was like, I got to like when I. The signage went up and like everything was starting to happen. I kind of looked around. I was like, oh my God. Like this. I feel much more in line then. And it's like, it's weird to think about not being in line with your own business. But like my.
- [56:52]
A
No. But so many people are.
- [56:53]
B
I was not as connected to the name.
- [56:55]
A
Yep.
- [56:56]
B
And, well, I love it.
- [56:57]
A
I mean, Kelsey Klein is a 10x better movie star name as far as I'm concerned. And I love the alliteration. It's so good. You and I were just talking about burnout at a dinner the other night.
- [57:06]
B
We sure were.
- [57:07]
A
And how to manage that in this career. I think you've gotten really good at it. I do, I really do think that.
- [57:11]
B
Check in and see if you can.
- [57:12]
A
So what tips would you have for other designers who are experiencing that? Because I think this is a. A pretty industry wide problem.
- [57:19]
B
Okay. So I think there's a personality type.
- [57:22]
A
Yep.
- [57:22]
B
In our profession. I think there's like the full, like right. Brain creatives. There's the logistical kind of more. I mean, we're still type A, but like, there's an interesting like, intersection where if you lean one way more than the other and you don't have a team to support you that then fills in all of that, you will find yourself stretching too far to do whatever is out of your wheelhouse. And while I think not everyone needs a team, not everybody needs to have a. Like, it doesn't need to be a big team. Not everyone needs a full time team. Like you might have a part time design assistant or something like that. Yeah. But what I think this job is so challenging for is that you have to be everything. Especially if you're like a solo person doing this, which most of us are when we start. You're not able to do all of
- [58:27]
A
that and do it well.
- [58:28]
B
You just cannot.
- [58:29]
A
It's physically not possible. As far as I'm concerned.
- [58:32]
B
It's not. You can lose sleep, you can get sick, you can all the things. Like, I promise you it's gonna happen, but like, if you're not. Not careful, you will be completely burnout and disenchanted with what you're doing. And I fundamentally think, like, you need to assess where your weaknesses are, understand who might fit into that. Like, that was one of the things that I did. And fortunately, with my background, I could see, all right, I need to plug somebody in on cad. That's just. I'm never going to learn it. Just period, full stop. And that was, like, one of the first. Like, the first hires I was making was filling my skill gap. And when you can take something off your plate or even half off your plate, it's a huge improvement. That's some of the best advice. But I would also say, like, randomly, before you hire an assistant or anything like that, like, you need a bookkeeper so you actually can get your arms around 100% your finances to know what is possible. To know, like, know what your cash flow is, understand how long you have. Like, sometimes you have to, like, hire before you're ready. You have to, like, you just have to hot take. I kind of think you have to for your sanity. And honestly, there's no. It's just. It's brutal. Like, this business can be brutal.
- [59:52]
A
I really respect the. Out of people who are doing this solo, I. I genuinely do not know how they are going.
- [59:59]
B
It was a super lonely place.
- [60:01]
A
I will. I mean, I did it for six months.
- [60:03]
B
The beginning, it was really, really lonely. And I was used to having a team. I was used to building teams. Like, that was my whole ecosystem. But then I was like, wait, so I have to be everything to everybody and, like, there's no one to pick up in a random email while I'm driving around, like, this doesn't work. It doesn't work.
- [60:25]
A
I think that's a great point. I mean, I can say that every time I've hired. Whether it was, like, an easy hire or a more difficult decision, it has alleviated a significant piece of my business.
- [60:38]
B
And that's how it should feel.
- [60:39]
A
And if it doesn't feel that way, you've hired the wrong person. That's correct. Even though, like, yes, there's some training involved in the beginning, I found that, like, most of the people we hire do sort of jump in pretty quickly. We do train them extensively, but, like, it doesn't take much time for it to, like, get into how we work. And I think that's something that. I mean, I just hired an assistant slash office manager.
- [61:01]
B
I'm glad you did that.
- [61:02]
A
I mean, like, it's actually changed my life.
- [61:04]
B
I'm sure it has.
- [61:04]
A
I cry thinking about it because it's so. I've Gotten more design work done in the last two weeks.
- [61:10]
B
So this is the thing like you really have to run the numbers on is like, think about how much time something is taking you that is non billable, which means it pulls you away. And like quantify that. Okay, so five hours this week, I was pulled away to do something that was absolutely non billable. At my rate, that could have been.
- [61:28]
A
Which is way more expensive than assistance rate.
- [61:30]
B
And it makes sense really quickly.
- [61:32]
A
Really quickly.
- [61:32]
B
And it's not like when you're bringing on someone who's like fully non billable that it does get a little.
- [61:39]
A
It can be scary. For sure. It can be scary, yeah.
- [61:41]
B
But I do think, like, thinking about hiring and having a vision for like what that looks like for your team, even if it's just subtle support, like, it doesn't have to be a full, you know, office full of people. But I would also say, like what we talked about, which is like, be careful about what you let into your, like, your life and your space and your, like, don't over commit, don't. Which is so hard to do in the beginning, but once you get your footing. It's almost like a disease though. Cause I feel like I just started to have this happen in the last week where I. There's like, I think there's this difference between being propelled by your anxiety or being like fueled by it. And I think when I get something that's super exciting and I'm like, oh, this is like, this project is great, or this opportunity is awesome, I get really energized by it. Only just now can I be like, wait, but is this gonna, like, completely crush me later?
- [62:39]
A
Yep.
- [62:39]
B
Am I gonna put myself in a pickle in six months that I should see coming?
- [62:46]
A
So. So we're having that conversation a lot in my office right now of like, we have to say no to pretty much everyone so I don't end up screwing us over in six months.
- [62:58]
B
That's. I just did this exercise yesterday. I like, I rigged my own, like, bandwidth basically gantture in Asana. And I was able to see that's what I'm missing. It was so freaking simple. Like, and when I just broke it down, it was so simple. So I just did it by quarters and I did low, medium, high in terms of bandwidth projects on the left side and just saw where everything was overlapping. I have seven projects in yellow mid from April to June. Kelsey, that's too many. Like, but I cannot see it.
- [63:34]
A
It's hard to quantify until it's like, on Paper in front of you, basically
- [63:37]
B
hitting me over the head with it. So now I'm going to use this measure. Like, it just all kind of. Everything kind of came at once. Like, 2025 was an awful year. 2026, it was like, slow start, but, like, got shot out of a cannon basically in March. And I haven't really been able to come up for air since, which is a beautiful thing and exactly what I was hoping for. But now I'm like, well, wait, did I go too far? Did I take too much? Did I accept too much?
- [64:06]
A
So that balance of.
- [64:08]
B
But I. I'm like, oh, I can do this. I can do this. I did this before. I can do it. I'm like. I'm like, but do I need to.
- [64:13]
A
You can. You physically can.
- [64:15]
B
I don't think I should.
- [64:15]
A
But is it the right decision, which is something that you talk with me about, which is the thing I struggle with a lot is like, I have a high bandwidth and so, like, high throughput. Yeah. The output is very. Is. Can be high. But also it means that, like, they, like, don't live my life. Like, there's no life outside of anything else. And then it's like, what the fuck is the point of this? That's like, what's it for? Honestly, just subsidizing my clients, which, like. And I make way less money than they do. So at what point is it, like, I'm hurting myself for sometimes these very lovely, but much wealthier than me clients who are hiring me for service? I have to, like, force myself to think that way, because, I mean, I also think it just comes down to, like, some internalized. I should misogyny or something.
- [65:06]
B
When you hit 40, you will give so many less.
- [65:09]
A
I can't wait.
- [65:10]
B
Like, that. That get me there. What you just described, like, that lived in my brain constantly. And then I just. I literally turned 40 and I was like, I don't think that matters anymore. And it just became, like, a lot more. I became so much more comfortable saying no.
- [65:26]
A
Yeah.
- [65:26]
B
And like, just feeling even about it.
- [65:29]
A
Yep, yep, yep. I think that's the key. Not feeling good, not feeling bad. Just like, it is what it is. Just even in moving on. Huh? Okay, okay, Okay. I could talk to you for literally four more hours. And we do. And we do. Get us at a sushi restaurant and
- [65:47]
B
we'll close it down till the end.
- [65:50]
A
Thank you for coming.
- [65:51]
B
Oh, my God.
- [65:51]
A
So, so fun. Before I let you be here.
- [65:54]
B
So fun.
- [65:54]
A
What is something that made you feel recently?
- [65:57]
B
How do you think about this? So the Artemis 2 launch.
- [66:03]
A
Yes.
- [66:03]
B
Like, I feel like you don't know how starved you are for humanity.
- [66:09]
A
Yes.
- [66:10]
B
And. Or united fronts of just a common cause or common good. And most people would be rooting for them to do a. Really have a great mission. Whatever.
- [66:23]
A
A common mission for all of us,
- [66:25]
B
for the entire world. And they get to see it, and they get to. And it's women involved, I was gonna say.
- [66:32]
A
And not to mention it was a woman. I had chills all over my.
- [66:36]
B
Because it makes me so fricking happy that, like, my kids can see female astronauts. Like, and that we're even still going, like, this is still something we're doing. Like, that's wild. Because, like, they draw rocket ships and they talk about space, and they were looking for Venus last night in the sky, and it's like, they don't realize that that's out there and that people go there. And we just had that. Like, that's just.
- [67:04]
A
They got to see it wild. I mean, it's absolutely.
- [67:07]
B
It's really cool.
- [67:08]
A
When I was a kid, you know, the whole thing of, like, I want to be an astronaut. I want to be a firefighter. Not a single girl in my class was ever saying they wanted to be an astronaut. No.
- [67:15]
B
Because you've got to be a pilot. You got to do all the things.
- [67:17]
A
You can't be astronaut. Like, that was the signal. And so. That is lovely. I completely agree. That certainly made me feel.
- [67:24]
B
That felt me. I felt that in my bones. Like, that whole thing, it was so good.
- [67:27]
A
I love that. And they were just so caring and loving when they named Spot.
- [67:33]
B
Honestly, it was unfully. I was just, like, pouring tears.
- [67:40]
A
Pouring.
- [67:40]
B
Because it was such a sweet gesture.
- [67:43]
A
And the fact that he didn't know. Yes.
- [67:44]
B
And when they.
- [67:45]
A
I could. I could cry talking about it because it's just so, like, it's very rare that there are four humans that, like. And they can love each other that well and, like, and be in a space this big, like, literally, and come back loving each other. It is like, it feels like this tiny little microcosm of what it could be.
- [68:03]
B
Yes, I completely agree.
- [68:05]
A
It's a little bit of hope.
- [68:06]
B
Yes. The hope is not human being.
- [68:11]
A
You guys, I can't take this president anymore.
- [68:13]
B
We need hope, and we need humanity, and we need hope in humanity.
- [68:17]
A
I'm actually crying. Oh, no.
- [68:22]
B
But it's so true. It's so true.
- [68:24]
A
Oh, my God. Okay, Kelsey, as I stop crying, last but not least, where can we find you?
- [68:30]
B
Okay, so. Kleininteriors.com Instagram is beautiful. Kleininteriors we are in the Portage park neighborhood. Our studio is there, but we serve clients all over the city. Northern suburbs, Illinois. Fab Indiana, Wisconsin.
- [68:46]
A
Amazing. Thank you for coming. This was so fun.
- [68:49]
B
It was so fun.
- [68:50]
A
And thank you all for listening. This is our second to last episode of the season, so I hope you guys have all had an amazing time with us. I know I certainly have. And please, I know I ask it every time. Rate Review subscribe all the things so when we're back for season three you don't miss us until next week.
- [69:08]
B
Peace be with you. Bye.