Loading summary
Transcript369 lines
- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by a very special guest, Zoe Lowries, co founder of Programma, our amazing partner and sponsor. Zoe originally started her career in marketing before following her creative side into interior design, studying at Billy Blue College of Design, and going on to work in both residential and hospitality design in Melbourne, Australia. With experience both inside design studios and now building tools for the industry, Zoe brings a unique perspective on the creative and operational sides of running a design business. And we're so excited to have her here today. Thank you so much.
- [00:55]
B
Hey, thank you for having me. No, I'm super excited to be here.
- [00:59]
A
Yeah, it's going to be great.
- [01:00]
B
Yeah.
- [01:00]
A
Okay, so before we get to the Confessions, tell us a little bit about how you got here.
- [01:05]
B
Oh, my God. Honestly, sometimes I just wake up, I have no fucking idea how I got here. If I'm being completely honest.
- [01:12]
A
That is incredibly relatable.
- [01:14]
B
Oh, honestly, like, one minute, I'm a former interior designer by Trip, like, as you said in that very gracious introduction, but, like, I thought I was going to be an interior designer until the day I died. You know, I'd go down the traditional route. I'd make my way up the firm that I was working for, eventually open my own shop, have a team, all that sort of jazz. But, like, there were a few sliding doors moments that happened, like, throughout my career, which suddenly I find myself, like, co founder of a global tech platform, which is wildly ironic because before starting programmer, like, I. I'm a technologically challenged person, so I don't know how I got here. I'm super grateful that we are, though. Yeah. I love what we do. Yeah.
- [01:55]
A
Yeah. Obviously you started in marketing, so when you were growing up, did you know you had an interest in interior design? Was something that, like, you know, felt innate or. When did you. Yeah, I want to know that whole background.
- [02:10]
B
Yeah, for sure. So my whole family's in property, so my dad was a developer. My mom worked with my dad. Like, we were. I basically grew up on a construction site. We were always. I moved 13 times, I think before I was 11.
- [02:22]
A
Wow, what an education.
- [02:25]
B
Well, that's it. Like, in and around design throughout that whole process since a really young age. And my mom, while she's not an interior designer, she was always sort of super involved in the design process. And we were brought in as part of that as well because we had a say in, like, how we wanted our rooms to be designed or like how we wanted our little rumpus room to. Or play area to be. Like, we were always as part of that journey. So I had a bit of, like a creative inclination, but I went to a really traditional school and design wasn't really one of the, I don't want to say accepted paths, but it was not one of those encourage parts. You know, like, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be a lawyer, you're going to go into business. So my sort of most creative outlet, I suppose, given that context, was to go into marketing. So instead of doing the built environment being your creative space, it was all like creative campaigns and branding design and the graphic design. So that kind of became my world for a little while. And then slowly but surely as we were doing more projects, more like holistic projects, I think, where. Where we would take care of the branding, but then we'd also have to consult with designers on how they could take that brand and then apply it into the built space. And the more exposure I got to that, the more I was just like, this is. This is what I need to be doing.
- [03:49]
A
This is the meaty part.
- [03:51]
B
This is the meaty part. Like, you know, kind of. I enjoyed, like, the marketing and the branding side of it. Like, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't until I actually started rolling up my sleeves and having a bit of a say in the interior aspect that I was just like, heck, yeah. Like, this is genuinely what feels like lighting me on fire. So thankfully at that time, and this is probably not something that maybe this is my confession, but at that time, we're actually based in Fiji. So that's a whole other story in. And itself.
- [04:21]
A
Wow, you were working in Fiji. Wow, that is so cool.
- [04:25]
B
Yeah, so my. My whole family was over there. I'd finished uni, went over to do like a working sabbatical, ended up staying a lot longer than probably we should have. But it was a really great launch pad because I was actually. And you would never be able to do this in Australia and probably not in America as well, but I was sort of able to dip my toe into the interior space, create designs, sort of even work with trades to bring them to life whilst not actually having any experience or qualifications to my name, which is not really something that, you know, I put on my LinkedIn profile. But yeah, when we eventually moved home, I was like, okay, Time to legitimize this. I want to get a job in a practice in the studio so I can absorb as much as I possibly can. Yeah. And that's what I did. And then through that whole experience, we eventually found ourselves founding a tech company basically because, like, interior design is a brutal job and not a lot of people appreciate that. And maybe it's just my own experience,
- [05:30]
A
but no, it's so true. I think it from the outside looks so glamorous and fabulous and there are certainly parts that are. But so much of our job is
- [05:40]
C
logistics and keeping track of things and
- [05:42]
A
making sure, you know, it's all exactly how it should be. And that's the piece that I feel like is hard to perfect. And I want. I know I have some insider information because I know a little bit. But I want you to tell us what was like the moment that you were like, I can't do this anymore. I need something. I mean, I want to know.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, I felt like I was having a weekly minting be at that phase, like of my life where something was invariably going wrong. Where, you know, I don't know, the wrong product arrived on site or the wrong thing was installed or whatever. Like, I mean, I don't need to tell you about all the wonderful ways things can go wrong in a design project.
- [06:24]
A
Expensive ways things can go wrong. That's like the really, you know, high risk part of our job is that we make a mistake and it's not. It's typically a cheap mistake.
- [06:35]
B
And that's the great thing about moving into software is that if something goes wrong, like you just, you just press one button and that's all right. Like it's fixed, it's a glitch, you know, not like in design where it's like, oh, shit, that's the wrong file on a wall. We've got to rip it off and demolish it.
- [06:48]
C
This is going to cost $10,000.
- [06:50]
B
Oh, God, I don't miss that. But I do sometimes. Yeah. So look, in a nutshell, basically what happened. So like my boyfriend, who's also my co founder, we have another co founder as well. Not like a throuple situation, but anyway,
- [07:06]
C
very good to clarify.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah, put it out there. Travis, who is my boyfriend, he was like sent to me from the angels above. Like, he's the most patient man when he wants to be. But he was like my emotional support, my tech support, like sounding board, the full lot. So I'd always be coming home to him being like, you know, XYZ happened at work or this went wrong. Or I fucked up this rent file or whatever it is, and I'm like, please help me. And I think he just got to the point with one weekend. I was doing some scheduling and, you know, because I didn't have enough time to finish it all off during the week. And I'd put a. I'd put a dodgy file into this spreadsheet which already had, like, a thousand products in it or something. Ridiculous. And we'd be working on it for, like, a month. Had a client presentation Monday where they were flying into Singapore to, like, review the latest. My stomach is hurting anyway. Yeah, exactly. Corrupted. I couldn't get it back. And I was just like, please, no. Whoever is up there, like, save me. Like, this is not happening anyway. I didn't save it. I had to rebuild the whole thing from scratch, which in and of itself was just, like, horrific. But that started a conversation where Travis was like, this is ridiculous. This keeps happening time and time again. Surely there is something for architects and designers, like, every other industry, which kind of runs the core components of your business. And, like, we had a look around and, you know, there were a few platforms out there that were doing a good job at things that were sort of like styling and interior decorating. But because I was working this project was. It was like a really. It was a complex hotel project in Asia. Yeah. And so being able to document the level of, like, custom specs and coordination that went into it, they just didn't have that sort of robust nature.
- [08:52]
A
I mean, when you have thousands of specs, you need something that. That can be, like, a workhorse for those and, like, functions beautifully and all of that. I mean.
- [09:02]
C
Yeah.
- [09:03]
A
Key.
- [09:03]
B
The other side of it, too, is I'm a design snob. You know, I kind of feel like we all are in some aspects.
- [09:10]
C
I mean, you have to be. If you're listening to this podcast, I would think.
- [09:13]
B
Yeah, I would hope so. Otherwise, you know, sorry, but no, like, honest to God, like, I'm a bit of a design snob. So if I go into a platform and if I don't like how it looks or if I don't feel like I can get my head around how it functions within two minutes because my attention span has just been fried by TikTok, I'm not going to use it, you know, like, it needs to be aligned to my brand, it needs to be aligned to my design. Like, if my clients are going to interface with it as well, it can't look like something that was built by an accountant. Like, 25 years ago. Because that's just not how I want to present my work.
- [09:50]
A
I mean, my brain has a hard time looking at Excel. It's hard for something about the little boxes and I don't know, something about it is just naturally my eyes go crust. It's like I'm trying to learn a math problem. Something about the same thing that's in my brain that doesn't understand math, doesn't understand Excel whatsoever.
- [10:13]
B
I mean this is probably oversharing to the max. But like when I did my first degree, accounting was a component of it. I failed it three times.
- [10:21]
A
I really relate to that.
- [10:22]
C
I had to cheat to not fail it. Sorry, don't take my diploma. But I did have to cheat.
- [10:30]
B
I mean, you can kind of guess where I'm going with that. But yeah, you know, we got there in the end. I have the piece of paper, like
- [10:39]
C
to be completely honest, that's what matters. But also we hire accountants now, so it's, it's really. I didn't need to know that.
- [10:49]
B
We've got to keep them in business like we're creating jobs. Yeah, I don't want to do that. I don't want to take away from anyone. Yeah, I mean you've got the piece of paper and to be fair, like, like a lot of that degree is like common sense and obviously skills and experience when you do get out into the world. But yeah, so anyway, like that whole shitstorm of what was my day to day life as an interior designer, with the exception of like the great creative parts that I did sign up for, is, was totally the catalyst that led us to create a platform which is essentially just like we take care of all the back of house admin and all of the product specification and the client management. So you can actually do what you went to uni to do, you know, like be creative. Creative problem solving, fostering good relationships, like where you add the most value, which is not like data entry in an Excel spreadsheet.
- [11:36]
A
In tiny little boxes.
- [11:38]
B
Yeah, I mean in tiny little boxes.
- [11:41]
C
So many little boxes.
- [11:43]
A
I think that's a great point. So at what point did you look up and say, oh, I guess I work in software now or a tech in general. And did you have a hard time sort of letting go of your day to day in the design world? Sorry, I know that's two questions.
- [12:03]
B
No, no, no, totally. Yeah, that was my exact experience. So I was still working in the firm that I was part of at that point. So I worked with a big architecture practice. I was also Doing my own stuff on the side. And I kind of kept up essentially three jobs for about six months to the point where it was just a untenable for me to keep going like that because I don't have 36 hours in a day. It was Covid as well. So a couple of the really big projects that I was working on were taken offline. So that was kind of fortuitous. And things just really started picking up steam at Programmer, where we got venture capital funding. It became like a very real business very quickly. And I was like, my value is best put to use in Programmer, not in doing what I was doing. And like, to be fair, like, I had, you know, no tear shade to my old firm. But like, it was a really intense workplace.
- [13:03]
A
Like, it offers stress, especially when you're working in, you know, high level commercial or hospitality. It's like, that's a very, very high stress situation.
- [13:15]
B
It was, yeah, it was a lot like burnt out a lot of people and I was sort of heading in that direction myself too. So I was just like, look, I'm not happy. I've got this opportunity which does not come around to everyone in their lifetime. I believe so firmly in the fact that this could be a success. Like, why? Why am I burning the candle at both ends? Or why am I trying to spread what little energy I have left into something that is not fulfilling me anymore? And so I just went, okay, fine, all in on Programmer. Like, we sold our house, I've sold everything that wasn't nailed down on Facebook Marketplace so that we could scrounge together enough money to sort of build the first version of our platform. Which, like, was trash. I'm not gonna lie. The first version of Programmer was like, not you.
- [14:05]
A
What is it they say if you don't look back and cringe at your first iteration, you launched too late. Like, if you don't look back and you're like, what the fuck was I thinking? Then you jumped too late. You should have risked it way earlier. I actually think that's a badge of honor.
- [14:23]
B
Well, I hope so. And we still actually have a few people who've been with us from day one and I have so much respect for them.
- [14:30]
C
Wow. So it couldn't have been that bad. It couldn't have been that bad.
- [14:35]
B
Maybe compared to Excel, but like, shuffles are great. Like, yeah, live chat was like the wild west at that point. It was, yeah. But it all worked out because we had to get it out there. Like you were saying, you've got to. You can't Sit on it for too long cause otherwise you're going to miss your window. We got some early signups which was great because it validated the problem and that it wasn't just me being shit at my job. It's like this was a universal pain kind of felt across the industry. So those early signups were great because we got some traction and then we could go to the VC market and say, hey, we're onto this thing. Who's interested in giving us some money? And thankfully like what kind of worked in our favor is they had all in some aspect in through a renovation or a house build, of course. An interior designer. Yes. For probably one of their many holiday homes.
- [15:27]
C
Yeah, one of seven, I'm sure.
- [15:31]
B
So like here we were being like, oh, VC funding is going to be really tricky. And I'm not saying it was a walk in the park, don't get me wrong, but because the person on the other side of the zoom call, because this was all during COVID as well, had lived that experience and felt the pain from the client side of things and they saw how big the market was, they were just like brilliant. Yes. So yeah, we've, we've been really fortunate in that respect as well. But yeah, sounds like a bit of a fever dream. Yeah.
- [16:00]
A
I mean to your point, this has happened so fast. So did you guys officially launch in 2020? 2021.
- [16:08]
B
So like officially, officially incorporated the company in like 2020. And that's when we did the first like program of one point. But we kind of say that we became a proper business in September 2021, which is when we launched what we affectionately call programmer 2.0. But now, now we're on version like 16, so even that seems pretty archaic. Yeah.
- [16:31]
A
Also that's sort of what I love about you guys. And when I initially got introduced to you guys, a lot of what people said was they're really interested in customer client feedback. Like there have they iterate so much because they to get what they need out of this platform and I find that so admirable.
- [16:53]
B
So much of that as well was, you know, up until maybe about a year ago I was still doing training calls and demo calls and I was on live chat, like talking to our users day in, day out, walking them through the platform. A. I love it. Like I'm. I'm very much a people person and sometimes working in tech you lose a little bit of that like humanness, if that kind of makes sense. You know, like working in code and
- [17:22]
C
working in product design, zeros and ones
- [17:23]
A
don't really give you, like a warm
- [17:25]
C
and fuzzy feeling like talking to a human does.
- [17:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it took me a really long time to step out of that part of Programma, but because I was talking to designers all day, every day, and I'm just like, it would become a therapy session both for them and me to an extent as well, where it's just like, tell me everything that sucks. What is going wrong? What do you hate? What do you love? What do you think we could do better, like, and just naturally falls into how we develop our roadmap, what we're planning, what we build, how quickly we prioritize things. And then on top of that, now we have an entirely new software engineering process at the moment where every single person in our business can ship code. So we have a feed of feedback that comes in through the platform. And literally I've got something going in the background of this chat right now, which is a user was wanting to know if we could decouple the product link from, say, the supplier details. So that takes me 20 minutes. Bang it out, it's updated. We get to now go to that user and say, hey, you know how you asked for this particular feature? Well, that's now live in your platform. And the reception that we've had to that new process has just been like, astounding.
- [18:41]
A
So, I mean, yeah, because you're showing we value your feedback, we value you as a customer, and we're going to do what we said we're going to do, which is improve your life. Yeah, that's. I feel like all you can ask of a business. That's incredible. Incredible, incredible. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving, and barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're Serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Before we get into confessions, do you have a vice?
- [20:12]
B
Man, I used to have a lot of vices, but I'm boring and old now, so my only vice is that I am addicted to work. But if I. Okay, if I'm being. Thanks. For real. I am a very serious professional person. But my vice is heated rivalry. At the moment,
- [20:30]
C
I don't think you're alone in that by any.
- [20:32]
B
There is, like, full blown heated rivalry psychosis that's going through my friendship group. It's going through the office, it's going through the world.
- [20:40]
C
I fear, like, it is running rampant.
- [20:43]
B
Oh, God. Like, I was putting. I was putting calendar invites in the girls in the girls calendars at work being like, it's an HR review, but Peter rivalry review.
- [20:54]
C
We're just gonna have an hour to talk about heated rivalry.
- [20:57]
B
I would be so happy to pivot if that's where you wanted to go. But no, seriously, like, if I'm overworked, if I'm overwhelmed, like, episodes five and six, heated rivalry will fix me every time.
- [21:08]
A
It's just, like, the best escapism. It's so. Yeah, I really relate to that. I need to rewatch it. I've only watched it once, and I watched it in a hotel, and I need to rewatch it.
- [21:19]
B
It, we call it. We call them reheats in the community. So if you're re watching Hilly Rock Community.
- [21:29]
C
Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna have to do a reheat, I guess. That's so funny. That's a great vice as far as I'm concerned.
- [21:36]
A
That's incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Okay, let's do some confessions. In early 2020, during lockdown, our clients who were living abroad had just signed off on a complete renovation of a Georgian flat in Edinburgh's new town. They wanted it entirely reworked. It was a beautiful place. Tall ceilings, original cornices, parquet floors. Everything very detailed and historic. Because of lockdown, this project was uniquely complicated. People couldn't travel freely, which meant that even scheduling a plumber or a carpenter became a logistical nightmare. Flights were unreliable, and restrictions were changing day by day, so someone who was supposed to arrive on Monday wouldn't be allowed in until the following week or sometimes not at all. We had to constantly reshuffle the calendar, juggling multiple contractors in different regions and Time zones while trying to keep the work progressing. Covid, complications aside, it was eventually completed in late 2021. The flat looked beautiful, and the clients were very pleased. I let myself breathe a little, because after that many months and the craziness of COVID it felt like a true. But it wasn't a victory for long. I know, I know. Turns out a neighboring building had an old rainwater pipe that nobody had looked at in decades. After a particularly heavy rain, it cracked and seeped into the newly done flat. It came in through the ceiling and ran behind the kitchen cabinets, pulled along the flooring, and even reached the primary bedroom below. The home was in ruins. Our beautiful upholstered walls were stained, the flooring had buckled, and everything water had touched was waterlogged and sagging.
- [23:22]
B
Oh, my God.
- [23:23]
A
This is devastating.
- [23:24]
C
Devastating,
- [23:27]
B
Right. Please tell me that's it, there's not more.
- [23:30]
A
Well, the logistics are obviously a massive problem. She says once again. Or they say, I don't know. Once again. The logistics were a nightmare. The clients were halfway across the world. Tradespeople had to be coordinated in shifts, and everything had to be done without further damaging the historic finishes. Oh, my God. Oak floors had to be lifted and dried. Oh, my God.
- [23:51]
B
I think they haven't dried them.
- [23:53]
A
I know. That's wild. Kitchen cabinets disassembled and reinstalled. Every step had to match the original work or it wouldn't sit properly. Bit by bit, the flat came back together, and when the clients finally returned, they couldn't tell anything had happened. As the designer, it was just so draining. It's the sort of thing you can't plan for, but it undoes months of careful work. And as someone who plans out every minute detail, those challenges are particularly difficult for me. But that's what working on historic flats is like. Every project comes with surprises. They're charming and full of character, but come with the occasional disaster.
- [24:32]
B
Yeah, I have so much respect for people who do heritage innovations.
- [24:37]
A
It's incredibly impressive.
- [24:39]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know of, like, any. I've got a couple of friends who work in the. And I haven't heard of a single project where it's just, like, go through smooth sailing. We haven't uncovered something that's going to cost tens of thousands of dollars to rectify that we don't have in the budget. The end product is beautiful, and I love the idea of preserving history and adding little modern flares and touches to compliment it, but I do not have that kind of attention to detail. I'll Put that out there.
- [25:08]
A
Well, and to your point. So we work a lot on historical renovations, but. But what is classified as historical as kind of like a bit of a question mark in the U.S. but I digress. There's certainly a lot that has to be figured out. And so much of your money gets sucked up by things you can't even see. Which, to your point. But I do think that the idea of particularly a historic home having this level of damage to it, that is devastating on, like, another level, because these finishes that you worked so hard to preserve and presumably restore and, you know, to their former glory, are now damaged beyond repair in some cases. Like how disheartening that you put all this love and care and attention into this place and it's just flooded. I mean, and it's. You can't control it. But, my God, that's like, put a pit in my stomach.
- [26:07]
B
It'd just be really hard as well, like, not to carry that through with you to the next project.
- [26:11]
A
Yeah.
- [26:12]
B
You know, like, that would scar you a little bit on some level deep inside where you're just like, oh, is this gonna happen again? And then are you putting extra time and hours into, you know, safeguarding or preventing something that might not actually even be a problem on this new job? I don't know. I just. Oh, gosh. That. Yeah. Literally sends chills up my spine.
- [26:32]
A
There's so many details, and I. You know, typically with historic homes, you're. At least. I'm putting a lot of vintage and antique pieces that are sometimes one of a kind, or if not one of a kind, you found it for $1,000,
- [26:45]
C
and it's actually worth $12,000, and you
- [26:47]
A
can never replicate it. So. God, the. And that's not to say that you don't also use those pieces in newer build homes, but I think that's just. Yeah. There's no way to fully replicate it. And that's a scary thought. I feel like I would probably start gravitating towards things that are more readily available out of, like, ptsd.
- [27:11]
C
Like, if I can't replace it, I'm
- [27:13]
A
not gonna spec it, because what am I gonna do?
- [27:15]
B
But then does that also compromise the design outcome for the clients?
- [27:19]
C
Absolutely, it does.
- [27:20]
A
Yeah.
- [27:20]
B
Yeah.
- [27:21]
A
That's really.
- [27:22]
B
I know that is a tough one.
- [27:25]
A
We have to give some penance, which I think the only penance that these people deserve is, like, the designer deserves a vacation, like, all expenses paid, like, you know, sunny vacation somewhere warm. And I think the clients deserve nothing
- [27:45]
C
bad ever happening to their home, ever Again,
- [27:49]
B
they deserve zero insurance premium for the rest of their. For the rest of their existence.
- [27:56]
C
Yeah, wouldn't that be great? Yeah. I'm sure Their insurance was not.
- [28:00]
A
Yeah.
- [28:01]
C
Not low.
- [28:02]
A
After that.
- [28:03]
C
That situation.
- [28:04]
B
No, thank you.
- [28:13]
A
Confession number two. Let's do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. A few years back, I got called in to design a completely new build for a couple who were obsessed with the idea of a fully automated, ultra modern home. They wanted hidden speakers, voice activated lights, automated shades, all of it. They had hired all the proper tech people, and my job was to come in and make it feel like a real home. We clicked from the start. I think they liked that I actually had opinions and would tell them when something would look weird. But I also respected their obsession with technology. I was excited to see it come together because I'd never worked on a smart home before and was so curious to see the final product. The home itself turned out stunning. They'd wanted it to be very minimalist, but I talked them into selections that leaned warm and very natural feeling. Every room was beautifully styled, all the finishes looked immaculate, and it was a project I was very proud of. I'd really wanted it to feel like the tech was integrated into the home and not the other way around. So when they invited me to their housewarming party, I was genuinely excited. Partly because I loved the couple, partly because it was a great networking opportunity, and partly because it was a very kind recognition to be included. And the free champagne was definitely a plus. Which I do have to say, I think it's so sweet when clients invite you to the housewarming party. We've had a couple clients do it, and it's just very lovely.
- [29:37]
C
It's nice.
- [29:38]
A
Closure to be acknowledged. Absolutely. Cause I feel like I, like, get emotionally connected, not only to the clients, but to the house. Like, I get very sad when I have to leave. Not all of them, but most of our projects, which, you know, we've spent
- [29:51]
C
two, three years on.
- [29:53]
A
I get very, very attached, and it's sad to have to say goodbye. So, yeah, that housewarming is almost like a transition, like a handing over.
- [30:02]
B
You're handing over your baby.
- [30:03]
A
Exactly. And now you guys get to enjoy it and live your life in the way that we designed for, which is always so fun. Okay, sorry.
- [30:10]
B
That was fine.
- [30:11]
A
I digress. I showed up to the housewarming party, began chatting with neighbors, enjoying the hors d' oeuvres and showing around the house. They had the lights set just right and some kind of ambient music playing. Softly from the built in speakers. And all of a sudden I thought a bomb had gone off. Out of nowhere, the soft music was at full volume. Like ear splitting volume. I can see it so clearly. Everyone jumped. I slammed my hands over my ears. Someone's drink fell on the ground and shattered. It's chaos. The owner rushed to one of the wall panel, wall control panels and started tapping. I ran over to try to help, but had no idea how these things worked. And all of a sudden, the music was replaced with an ear splitting security alarm. In his panic, he had pressed the wrong button. So instead of muting the speakers, he activated full security mode. Instantly, the alarm system armed itself. The exterior floodlights flipped on and began flashing. Someone tried opening the back door, which was a giant floor to ceiling sliding glass door, and couldn't because it was locked. We were locked in the house because the security system was professionally monitored. Triggering that scene automatically alerted emergency services.
- [31:29]
C
Let's just.
- [31:31]
B
This sounds like some black mirror shit. Like Jesus. Oh my God.
- [31:38]
A
Which meant yes, the police were now on their way.
- [31:42]
C
Yeah, this is an excellent housewarming.
- [31:44]
B
So great.
- [31:45]
A
Someone yelled at the owner about a physical override key and he yelled back
- [31:49]
C
that he had no idea where it was. The poor man had just moved in.
- [31:53]
A
Which this is true. When you're having things like that happen and you move in, you would be
- [31:57]
C
surprised how often it's like, I actually don't know how to work my house. I live here. No, but I don't yet know how to work all my tech.
- [32:04]
B
I am not reading the bundle of manuals that you just gave me yet.
- [32:07]
A
No, it's not. And partially. You know, most of these clients are paying someone to like program the system and it'd be like really simple and easy.
- [32:14]
C
So they're not really like fully learning
- [32:16]
A
how it all works. Because that shouldn't be necessary for like the easy.
- [32:20]
B
That's kind of what I paid for.
- [32:21]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [32:22]
C
But then something like this happens and you're like, oh no, I can't. I can't help myself. Okay.
- [32:30]
A
A couple of them ran to the basement where all the automation panels and electrical systems lived. And the rest of us just standing there wincing. And finally the noise cut out. Then everything went dark. Pitch black, total silence. Just the faint hum of systems resetting and my ears ringing like hell. And then someone made some joke to break the tension, which triggered everyone to start laughing. In the relief of the moment, my adrenaline pumping, and the ridiculousness of the now silent, pitch black house, I could not stop laughing a minute Later. Which is like a great response, by the way. I think. I, I don't know what I. I wouldn't have been laughing.
- [33:05]
C
I don't feel like. I feel like I would have been rocking in the corner.
- [33:10]
B
I would have been so overstimulated at that point that like, I probably would have been the person unfortunately yelling at the homeowner, being like, just get the key. And they would have been like, I don't know where the key is. And just probably making the situation better. Sound.
- [33:22]
C
You're calling the contractor and you're like, where's the key? Yeah, I would have been the one dying.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah, I would not have been helping, I can tell you that.
- [33:32]
C
Oh my God.
- [33:33]
B
I can't even handle it when like the passenger in my car doesn't put their seatbelt on straight away and it starts speaking at me.
- [33:39]
A
Oh my God.
- [33:39]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:40]
A
No. My dad tries to pay them to remove the sensors.
- [33:44]
B
He's always, that's smart.
- [33:46]
C
They won't now, but they used to when it first came out, they would just snip them. But Doug would slide some money, which is like horribly unsafe. But he also.
- [33:56]
B
Your dad's an innovator. Yeah.
- [33:58]
C
Well, he also doesn't know that he has, you know, overstimulation problems. And so now that I'm an adult, I realize that was really triggering.
- [34:06]
B
That's so much sense.
- [34:07]
C
And I really would want them to do it to mine. Cause I agree.
- [34:10]
A
I keep. I can't stand it. And you're like trying to be nice and you're like, hey, so do you
- [34:15]
C
mind putting your seatbelt on? Put your seatbelt.
- [34:16]
B
Can you put your seatbelt on? Seatbelt, Come on. Or I will crash his car, I swear to God.
- [34:25]
C
Oh my God.
- [34:26]
A
A minute later, the lights returned to their perfectly calibrated glow. The owner came back upstairs looking absolutely mortified. And right on cue, two very confused police officers arrived to confirm that no, this was not a hostage situation, just an over enthusiastic smart home.
- [34:43]
C
Like imagine they walk into this like lovely party with glowing lights and like soft music. And then they're like, did you guys
- [34:51]
A
just do a full shutdown of this room? I still don't know what went wrong, but it became the butt of the joke the rest of the night. And I still cringe thinking about it. I love designing the home, but I think living in a not so smart house is something I'll have to pass on.
- [35:11]
B
Yeah, look, I. I am yet to experience smart home automation that is seamless. Like, I've got a few bits and pieces in my own house. And it's a struggle, you know, like I am just so super looking forward to the day because we've got, you know, AI kind of enabled across my personal life, at work life, all of that sort of stuff. When AI can do like unload my dishwasher, clean my kitchen properly, put the thermostat at the right temperature, like all of that sort of stuff, I'm all in. But I am yet to hear of instance where it hasn't become problematic and it becomes more of a job managing your smart home than just a few to flick light switch, to be honest.
- [35:53]
A
So I'm going to get on my soapbox for a second because this is something I care about so much. We have had this situation happen a couple of times recently where the clients are being, I won't say forced, but sort of highly recommended by the contractor and sort of told them like, if you're building this level of house, if you're renovating to this level, you will not be able to sell your house in five years, 10 years for what it's worth, because it won't have been automated. And I think that is complete and total bullshit. And you wanna know why? Because tech is the thing that, that ages a home faster than anything else. When we have clients that are buying homes even that are 10, 20 years old, they're always ripping out the old systems. Even if they were state of the art and like the best thing you could get at the time, they're always getting ripped out. Do not let a man who is obsessed with TVs tell you that you have to have smart technology in your house, because you don't. I understand that like ten 20,000 square foot homes need some level of automation for you not to have to like turn off light bulbs all over the place. But there's a way to like do lighting and shading fairly well. The Lutron system is not. It's fine. I feel like it's the one that functions the best in my opinion. But when you start to include anything else, I think is when it just goes so off the rails. I mean, you know, these homes are a 10,000 square foot home. The low voltage can be 3 to $500,000. On the low side, that's in my opinion, highway robbery. That's insane. That's insane. So for it to not work, for it to then like lock you in
- [37:39]
C
your house, I, I'll pass.
- [37:42]
A
That's insane.
- [37:43]
B
That like I was saying, it feels like black mirror. Like what police are there? The control and Then it's like, it's. It's a hostage situation. And then it just escalates so quickly. Like, I. This is again, just my brain rot. On the weekends, I was on Tikt and there's this chick who has a chip in her hand.
- [38:03]
A
A chip girl. I know who she is. Chip girl, yes.
- [38:06]
B
And she just goes around her house, like, putting a little embedded chip in her wrist to open up doors and stuff. And I'm like, what if that doesn't work? What if none of your house in response to your chip, what if you just go and get the chip replaced? Like, what if the chip malfunctions?
- [38:18]
A
It's a piece of tech in your body. Her husband's apparently the creator of the tech, which is why she has it.
- [38:24]
C
But.
- [38:24]
A
And that's why she also has that massive house that's all like, automated and everything, but guaranteed, the first six months they lived in that house, she was
- [38:32]
C
like, why the fuck does nothing work?
- [38:34]
A
Because that's what happens. That is what happens. I mean, in this story, when I first read it, I was like, yep. Because it has happened so many times where the first night the client's staying in their home, the alarm goes off and they can't figure out how to turn it off.
- [38:48]
C
Either it hasn't been programmed yet, or like it has and they haven't been
- [38:52]
A
taught, but they have no idea. And the cops always show up.
- [38:55]
B
That's like an omen, you know? It's like, I've moved into this house and the police show up on the first night, and I'm here three years. This is not living up to my expectations. Not only that I would crash up. I need to sage the shit out of this home. It was just bad vibes. No, it's not bad vibes. It's just bad home automation.
- [39:12]
C
Yeah, it's just bad technology, which makes it almost feel like you're living with a ghost.
- [39:17]
B
I do want to caveat this by also saying, like, I haven't. I haven't specced home automation in, like, over five years. So things might be a lot different to when I was doing automated rollerblade and lights and stuff. Yeah. So no shade to people who special, like, specialize in home automation.
- [39:34]
A
I have specced it recently and I am throwing shade at the people who do this for a living. Personally, I am full team.
- [39:42]
B
Max shades.
- [39:44]
C
Yeah. No, I just feel that we've lost the plot a little bit.
- [39:47]
A
But it is what it is. There is this movie that if you're a millennial or older gen, Z, you'll probably know. It's called Smart House and it was on Disney Channel and it was like maybe in the very late 90s, early 2000s. So this was like the first sort of like smart home automation movie like this. And the Smart house made them breakfast, took their trash out, did the dishes, like, fed the dog everything you wanted. And then, yeah, the house takes over and like, sort of becomes the one that's in control. And you find out that there's sort
- [40:28]
C
of like a. I mean, I'm, I'm spoiling a movie that's over 20 years old.
- [40:33]
B
Okay, was this. It's with Pierce Brosnan, like the, the voice of the house.
- [40:38]
A
No, it's a woman. It's a woman and she ends up being like a hologram or something where she's like a woman. She's like, I'm your butt. It's wild.
- [40:48]
C
My 22 year, 22 year old producer is looking at me like, I've never heard of that. And I'm looking at myself like, okay. But it's actually, it was one of my favorite Disney Channel movies when I was growing up.
- [41:00]
A
And I remember thinking, I will not
- [41:02]
C
have technology in my house, so maybe I'm just scarred. Like, I. I guess I also need a caveat that maybe this Disney Channel movie is the reason I hate local prints in. Yeah, exactly.
- [41:12]
B
I get it, I get it.
- [41:13]
A
Let's do some Penny.
- [41:15]
B
Oh, I've got one for the client, maybe, please.
- [41:17]
A
Yes.
- [41:18]
B
Okay. No, it sounds like I'm, I'm, I'm punishing like a teenager. But no devices, no Internet access. You're grounded for a year. You're grounded. You cannot have access to your technology yourself. IPad away. Smart watches, smartphones, computers, all of it. We're going to lock it down in the basement and he'll probably come out
- [41:43]
C
like the most healthy person alive.
- [41:46]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then go outside and ground yourself, touch some grass for at least 30 minutes a day.
- [41:51]
C
Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I think that's brilliant.
- [41:54]
A
I do think locking devices, like putting timers on devices, you only get like a certain amount. And yeah, detechnologizing. That's certainly not a phrase, but I'm gonna make it one. Your home. Because at this point, how are you still like, yeah, this was the right decision. I know.
- [42:10]
B
This was, this was excellent. I'm. This is the best $300,000 I've ever spent.
- [42:15]
A
Yeah, I, I would be laying in
- [42:17]
C
bed that night sobbing and also questioning every decision I've ever made. You know what?
- [42:25]
B
Like, hopefully at that point, if I'm spending that kind of coin on home
- [42:29]
A
automation, it doesn't really matter.
- [42:31]
B
It's all.
- [42:32]
A
Although you know what I will say I don't know that that's true. True. We've worked on $10 million homes. Not to be like. But even those jobs are. There is a line item and like if that line item that you know you were given and expected to, if that goes over $200,000 and everything goes over $200,000, you're looking at like 2 or 3 million over you're already budget, $10 million home or whatever it is. And even, even people who, you know, are to the level that they can build a home like that, most of them are fairly shrewd in how they spend their money.
- [43:12]
B
Totally. There's a reason how you get to that level.
- [43:15]
A
Exactly. You have to act a certain way to keep it. I think is also like, it's easy
- [43:21]
C
to have money and spend it.
- [43:23]
A
It's harder to have money and keep it. And so I have sort of found that things like this, I'm always like, let's remove that chunk of the budget. Then we can, you know, make up for all these other things. So I'm sure there are some people who are like, whatever, $300,000 ultimately doesn't matter to me.
- [43:40]
C
And if you are out there, my email is, no, I'm kidding, it's in the shine eye. Because I would love to work with you.
- [43:49]
A
No, but I do think that everybody has a budget. Even if it's a massive budget, everybody has a budget. And so me learning that, it was somewhat surprising to me, but it has been true for all of our cl. But I do think the penance for the low voltage guys who put this in.
- [44:09]
B
Yep.
- [44:10]
A
I mean, I'm thinking violence, I think, oh, you know what? I think every TV in your house should be removed. That's the worst punishment they could ever think of. No college football, no NFL. Yeah.
- [44:26]
B
They've probably got like 17 in their house too.
- [44:28]
A
Oh, you know there's one to two in every single room. Every single one there has to be.
- [44:34]
B
I've got the man cave that's got like them all embedded in the wall by their toilet.
- [44:38]
A
Like, you know that those motherfuckers who
- [44:41]
C
work in tech have a, a literal
- [44:44]
A
screen in front of their face constantly. I shouldn't even say work in tech. They don't work in tech. They work in low voltage electricity.
- [44:51]
C
That's not tech. That's not tech. Those are two completely different things.
- [44:55]
A
But I do Think they're all men, at least in my experience. Actually, I met one woman and she did seem much more reasonable. But the men that I'm thinking of, I feel that maybe lack of TV could, to your point, help them touch some grass and then maybe we come back around on the tab or.
- [45:14]
B
I've got another thing too. May you always be logged out of your streaming services so that when you go into your. You're into tv, you go into like your Netflix or whatever, you have to use your fucking remote and be like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like that is.
- [45:29]
A
And then it says password is not correct.
- [45:32]
B
Your password is also always incorrect.
- [45:34]
A
Yeah. And when you go to reset it,
- [45:36]
C
it says you cannot use the previous password.
- [45:39]
A
Yes. Until you die.
- [45:41]
C
That just happens cyclically.
- [45:43]
B
Until you die. Yeah. That's it.
- [45:45]
A
Honestly, that's even better because something about
- [45:48]
C
the TV being there but not being able to access it is worse.
- [45:52]
B
Cruel. Yeah, Cruel and unusual punishment.
- [45:55]
A
Oh, wow. It's kind of the same thing as when you break up with someone. You should definitely take their tv. Remember remotes? Because, like, it's a really easy thing
- [46:03]
C
for them to think about you and be like, and you're not like, harming anyone. What are they gonna do? Put you in jail for taking their TV remote? No, like, and then you've got to
- [46:12]
B
go on ebay and get one of those generic universal remotes. You got a program and you never buy it.
- [46:18]
C
Doesn't really work how you want it to. They're devastating.
- [46:21]
B
But they deserve it anyway. So it's fine.
- [46:23]
C
Exactly.
- [46:23]
B
All they do.
- [46:24]
C
Absolutely.
- [46:25]
B
They ask for it.
- [46:37]
A
Remember when I said Designer Receiving wasn't a sponsor and I just genuinely wanted to share how wonderful they are? That was true. But this episode is now officially sponsored by Designer Receiving. They work exclusively with interior designers to handle everything from receiving an inventory to storage and installation. But what truly sets them apart is how much they care. Care and go out of their way to make sure every project goes smoothly. They're organized, tech forward and people focused, building genuine relationships with the designers they work with. If you want a partner who truly has your back, Designer Receiving is it. Check them out@designerreceiving.com. We have a couple more questions for you if you'll indulge me.
- [47:22]
B
Okay. Okay. Yeah, for sure.
- [47:23]
A
Programma was born from a very real workflow problem. At what moment did you realize this wasn't just a personal frustration, but an industry wide gap? Ooh.
- [47:33]
B
Like, okay. For the longest time, I think I did just assume it's like how we were running our studio operations and that maybe we just didn't really have it sorted out and maybe everyone else had their shit together. But it wasn't until, like, you know, the idea kind of creaked in our heads that I was then starting to talk to my other friends who were in other studios and started just, like, really deep diving into, like, Facebook forums and threads and groups just to see what the chatter was. And, yeah, it pretty quickly became clear that, yes, it wasn't just me being shit at my job. It wasn't just the firm that I was working for at that point. Like, everyone used the same piece of shit legacy Excel document for their specs and for their project programming and whatever else. And, like, it was a real wonder at that point that we were like, how does anything get built on budget, on time?
- [48:27]
A
It's honestly a great question.
- [48:29]
B
Oh, like, swear to God. So, I mean, maybe it just. Maybe it's a testament to how skilled we are. I don't know. It just is so much harder than it had to be.
- [48:38]
A
Yeah, we're making it. We were making it so much harder. I think that's a great way to put it.
- [48:42]
C
Yeah.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah. And, like, you know, other external influences at play there as well, to make it even harder for us. But once we kind of. Okay, spoke to a ton of. Of designers in our kind of community around here in Melbourne, tapped into little pockets of community, wherever I could find them on, say, like, Facebook or Instagram or Reddit or whatever, and realized, okay, this is a really real thing. Did the whole business launch, build the whole platform? And then when I was on the coal face doing the demos, like, for the longest time, it was just me, like, I was sitting there doing a training session with a designer in Iceland and. And so Lovely still uses the platform today, and we were literally just swapping war stories. And it was incredible to hear that. It's like, well, maybe incredible, validating, also kind of sad. But it's a shared problem that crosses borders. It's global, so it doesn't matter if you're doing cabins in Iceland or you're doing a high rise in Melbourne. We're still jostling with the same frustrations and the same roadblocks and shitty tools and whatever else, like, across the globe. It's wild. Like, it really blew my mind. But also kind of makes rolling out tools globally a little bit better when we're all kind of dealing with a little bit easier when we're all dealing with the same shit.
- [49:59]
A
Did you guys immediately have international users or did it Just start. Did you start in Australia?
- [50:06]
B
Yeah. So we started just in Australia for the first, gosh, 18 months. It was like end of 20, started 2023. We did no internationalization to the platform. It was like what our Australian. We're seeing and using. And then our marketing manager at the time. So it was only maybe like a team of 10 of us at that point. We're now like over 60. He was just like, hey, let's run a test. Let's just put some money behind some ads, run them in the US and Canada, see what happens. And holy shit. Like, the reception was immediate and it was kind of overwhelming and we weren't expecting it. Cause it was literally just like, oh, well, let's see what happens. Like, let's just run some ads over the weekend. And then we got to work on Monday. We got to work on Monday and we're like, oh my God, there's all of these new people. We had no imperial measurements, so every.
- [50:58]
C
All the.
- [50:59]
B
All of our American users were specifying stuff in millimeters and they're like, what the fuck? Anyway, and we had no currency conversions, but they liked it, they loved it. They were looking in for training sessions. So at that point we had to really quickly change a bunch. Well, not a bunch of stuff, but like change some project settings, change some spec settings so that it could be. Be really easily adopted by overseas users and then kind of haven't really looked bad. Like, America is our biggest market now. So majority of our users, a programmer are in the States, which is wild, wild scenes. I'm actually going to the States next week, week after gonna do the round this in person, but I forgot I was gonna say.
- [51:41]
A
Wait, where are you going? Where are you coming to?
- [51:43]
B
We are coming across because we were super lucky to have Trimble. So the makers of SketchUp, they part acquired or participated in our last capital race.
- [51:54]
A
Oh, cool. Fabulous.
- [51:56]
B
Really lovely full circle moment. Because SketchUp was like the first thing that I became good at when I.
- [52:01]
C
We love SketchUp in this office.
- [52:02]
A
We still use it.
- [52:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, they're. And their team's incredible. Like, they're building some amazing stuff. They're really looking to like expand their sort of influence over the design process because they're very much in like documentation and rendering and all this stuff, so.
- [52:18]
A
Oh my gosh, we should talk. I have edits, right?
- [52:20]
B
Oh, my goodness, yes. Because I'm building an extension at the moment inside SketchUp where you can basically do like a bunch of programmer actions or sync your schedule to your model or your Model to your schedule.
- [52:32]
A
I feel like we just need more in the warehouse. The where, which I say I call it going shopping. When the girls are doing renderings and I need things, I'm like, I'm going to go on the shop.
- [52:43]
C
And they're like, it's not.
- [52:44]
A
What are you. What is the shop? The 3D warehouse. We need, like, good items. Ooh, there is.
- [52:50]
B
Okay. I can't really say much. Say much, but what's coming is sick and it's going to solve your problem.
- [52:57]
C
Oh, that's so exciting.
- [52:59]
A
Oh, that's the best thing I could
- [53:01]
B
have heard, literally from what I was showing the other day. I was just like, why did I have this when I was a designer? Like, the amount of times I was trying to, like, trying to model, like a DCD couch with all of like the tufts and the curves and whatever. And I'm like, I'm not very good at this particular part of geometry. And so my, my clients ended up getting this kind of like cubular caterpillar looking thing, which was nothing like what I was wanting to spare.
- [53:28]
C
Well, curves are very difficult in Sketchup
- [53:31]
A
some I'll sometimes hear the girls being
- [53:33]
C
like, like at their computers and I know they're trying to do a curve because it's way too difficult.
- [53:40]
B
Oh, my God. Like, so basically, like, what is coming is just take whatever you want, turn it into a model, put it in your skp and off you go. And I'm like, I would be so much better.
- [53:51]
C
Changed my life. I'm so excited.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah.
- [53:54]
C
And this is like, I'm not faking this. I'm genuinely like, this is the best
- [53:58]
A
thing I could have ever heard. I'm so excited. Excited.
- [54:00]
B
Yeah. So looking at ways that we can connect our platform, make it heaps easier for designers to, like, sync specs and your models. So if you're live updating, you're not having to keep two things, like, up to date.
- [54:11]
A
That is so smart.
- [54:13]
B
Yeah. So going down to Colorado to spend a week with their team, plan out a bunch of stuff and then, yeah, heading by San Fran on the way home. So just a quick one, but we're a lot more than we used to be. Yeah.
- [54:26]
A
Yeah. So you mentioned the moment that you come in on Monday and you see that you have so many more users, overnight demos, all of that. What is that feeling? How did you feel when that happened?
- [54:42]
B
It was exhilarating. It was because I'm a very safe. And we used to be. Maybe not so much anymore. I'm a very safe and needed Risk averse kind of person. Whereas my boyfriend Travis is, is like the epitome of a fire starting human being. Just like massive risk for appetite stand for authority. Like just pure conviction and drive.
- [55:07]
C
And I'm like, you know what I mean?
- [55:11]
B
So for the longest time when we were starting off in Australia and even though we had really great green shoots here and we were getting a lot of signups and usage, like 50% of, basically 50% of the industry in Australia now use programmer, which is crazy.
- [55:23]
A
Whoa.
- [55:24]
B
But it was one of those things that even it was still so new and so early and I'd only been out of my design job for like a year or 18 months. I was still like, oh, is this going to work? Like, what happens if it doesn't work? Do I have to go and get another design job? Like just catastrophizing through the wazoo about everything that could go wrong. And then, yeah, when we came in to the office on Monday and saw all of these American signups and my calendar was just chock a block full of American designers wanting in and learning how to use it, like that was a really sleep deprived period of my life as well.
- [55:59]
A
Because I can only imagine differences. Yes. Time differences. I was just going to say that's wild.
- [56:05]
B
So happy to do it. Because everyone that I did just gave me more and more conviction and confidence in what we were building and that we were like, yep, this is going to work. We're onto something. Yeah, let's keep going. It's worth it.
- [56:17]
A
So that feeling, there's nothing like it. That's, that's incredible.
- [56:22]
C
I love that.
- [56:24]
A
Okay, so we were just talking about us Australian market, all of that. What are some of the biggest differences you see between the markets and how has that influenced the way programa is built?
- [56:36]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of similarities, put it that way. Like I would say like 80, 85% of the way that we run projects here in Australia is really similar to how you guys do it in the States. There's some, there's some differences around things where you guys have like reseller certificates and you're technically speaking the vendor of a product. We don't have that whole complication here.
- [56:58]
A
That sounds really nice.
- [57:00]
B
Oh, we have one tax rate for the whole country. So. And you have to advertise the tax rate and the price inclusive of tax when you buy something. It's a dream.
- [57:11]
C
Oh my God.
- [57:12]
B
Because we. I know a lot more about the American taxation system than I ever thought I would. Coming from someone who failed accounting Three times. Oh my God. I like my hot guys.
- [57:24]
C
Seriously, we have to guess how much we owe. We literally have to guess how much money we need to give them. And then when we're run they're like, here's a fine.
- [57:34]
B
What make that make sense? I have no idea. And, and this is now I do. Because we. Okay. One of your, one of the things, right, okay. Invoicing is so much of a bigger thing in America because you guys do a ton more procurement than we do in Australia. Like firms do procurement here, but it's very much like if you're in the styling decoration space, you will do furniture procurement and whatever else, but basically almost all products that need coordination by your builder or your contractor with sub trades is all procured by the builder directly. So because of that, a lot of the time when a designer is doing specs, it's doing spec for pricing but not necessarily for like order. It is a part of the workflow here, but it's definitely not to the extent that you guys have in America. So that was one of the, you know, the big learnings and it's still one that we're working on today is really growing our procurement feature set so that you can like take something through from you know, budget through to specifying through to ordering and invoicing and then logistics management. So we've got a whole plan and pipeline around ea, right. So around kind of making that a really seamless kind of handoff experience. And it all starts with our new invoicing system that is launching in the next two weeks. So we're going into beta, I think next week and then we'll be in beta. So beta is where we seed it with our little closed community of users who are really great at giving us feedback and then likely rolling it out to the wider user based pronto after that. But sick. It's really good if I say so myself. Wow.
- [59:15]
C
I'm so excited.
- [59:17]
B
It's like presentation grade invoices, so wow, looks. Yeah, I don't, I didn't realize that that was a thing.
- [59:26]
C
I'm so excited.
- [59:27]
A
This is really, I am sure people, some people listening are like, okay, calm down, it's really a software. But I feel like when you're in and out of those things, you really do. You feel like if there's a pain point or something you're hoping for and then it happens, it's just like, oh
- [59:40]
C
my God, this is the best day ever. It's just the best.
- [59:43]
B
Yeah, well, especially you know, like if you're doing Your renovation projects.
- [59:46]
A
Right.
- [59:47]
B
And you need to go and bill and order for 200 different products. Like imagine you're in QuickBooks and you're like manually typing that up.
- [59:53]
C
Yeah.
- [59:54]
B
You're importing a spreadsheet into it and it just takes so long or you're having to hire someone to like do all of your back end procurement. So basically, you know, this was already part of our existing invoicing system, but we've just made it a lot better is you're invoicing links with this spec. So you can basically say, okay, all my approved products, bang it in an invoice, send it off to my client. I can request split payments, I can set my payment type, I can pass on my fees if that's in my region. And it's got really beautiful imagery and the layout is like what people come to expect of our design system. Yeah.
- [60:25]
A
Oh my God.
- [60:28]
B
Very exciting.
- [60:29]
A
Very exciting. So how long, I mean, I'm just curious kind of about like the ins and outs of software and the tech industry in general. How long have you guys been working on this?
- [60:41]
B
On invoicing or. Invoicing has taken us almost a year. So we had a couple of hiccups at the beginning. We needed to make a God, this just sounds like jargon, but like we had to make a couple of pivots and rebuild a ton of our own like backend infrastructure and stuff. But really happy to make that time investment because now we're just super confident in what we're putting out there. We also went and renegotiated a bunch of our payments contracts so that we can provide like really competitive, amazing rates for like credit cards and ach and all of that sort of stuff. So been a while in the works. But that was also using our old development process, which is kind of how like most people build software these days. But since we've implemented this new process from the end of last year, we have been able to do essentially the same amount or ship the same amount of, of work on invoicing in two months that we did in the nine months prior. Wow. So it's just happening really quick. Yeah, it's wild.
- [61:45]
A
That's incredible.
- [61:46]
B
It's very exciting.
- [61:46]
A
I'm so grateful. And again, I know this all sounds like a product placement, but genuinely, I'm so grateful you guys put the time in because it's the thing that I feel like we have. It's our clunkiest part of the process is invoicing and the money side. And so I feel like, like what programa does so beautifully is streamlining in, like a design forward way. So to be able to bring invoicing into that is. Yay.
- [62:12]
B
It's so funny because, like, invoicing is always the clunkiest part of the process, whether you're on or off platform. But it's genuinely the most important part. Like, we get paid.
- [62:21]
C
Yeah, you get the money to do the work.
- [62:25]
B
Oh, my God. The amount of times I would sit in like a session with a designer and she's like, you know, you'd be like, oh, I have. I haven't invoiced this client for like six months. And I'm like, girlfriend, send them an invoice. Like, you have to get paid. You're not running a charity, like, just because invoices.
- [62:39]
A
Where are you getting the money from?
- [62:41]
B
Yeah, it needs to become like a habitual, easy thing to process so that you can have steady, reliable income. So anyway, hopefully, like, that's what. Hopefully that's what we built and hopefully it makes the rest a lot easier.
- [62:54]
A
But dead in them, so I cannot wait. Okay, everybody look out for that because that's going to be amazing. I was going to ask you about new tools and features and we just talked about it, so look at you ahead of the game.
- [63:05]
B
Okay, well, maybe. Maybe just a little more dabble in there, though, please. One more. So we also have an entire AI and data department. It's like, yeah, we got a big data thing. And their whole mission and prerogative is all about what we call programmer. From being a system of record. Think about it like all your products or your purchase orders, all that sort of stuff lives in programmer. But it's just a record of that product. Right. Like, you're not really doing much with it other than adding it to a spec or sharing with your clients. So we're moving towards being a system of action, which basically means all of the learnings that we have about you and the data in your account, we can then say, okay, we can turn that record into an action. So if you've had a product that gets approved by your clients, for example, we know the status has changed. So therefore, let's say, Caroline, do you want to send a purchase order? Here's a draft. We've already done it. You just press send or, hey, Caroline, we've already created the invoice for you. Do you want to send this to your client for payment?
- [64:05]
A
Oh, my God.
- [64:06]
B
Or you do just a whole bunch of things where it's like, we want to be able to prioritize the Work for you so that you can then not even have to think about what the next step is, because we're already prompting you, do you want to take it? If so, here. How you do it. Wow. So that we're kind of where we can still with some guardrails and still with control. Like, we're not. We don't want to apply full automation because then all of a sudden you're locked inside your house with an alarm going off.
- [64:32]
A
You know, we can't give it too much control.
- [64:34]
B
Oh, my God. But we want to be able to, like, relieve the cognitive burden from designers. Like, you don't even have to think about that next step. Like, we're presenting it to you, and all you have to do is say yes.
- [64:45]
A
Yeah, that's genius. And I feel like there are so many designers listening who just took a deep breath because it's like, that's what. I'll speak for myself. I have such bad ADHD that if I don't do the thing in the moment, it's never happening, or it's not happening until someone reminds me. And so the idea that, like, your software could be sort of like your little assistant who's like, hey, by the way, you just did this. Do you want to send it? Like, it's ready to go? That's the dream. Wow.
- [65:13]
B
We kind of want, like, the Cracked Assistant. So we've already got our first tool in that sphere in beta testing at the moment, and so far our response has been really good. So I'm very excited about that one, too.
- [65:25]
A
I can only imagine. I mean, Zoe, you're building the app that all of us want, or the software in general that all of us want.
- [65:30]
B
It's a selfish pursuit because it's literally everything that I wanted when I was a designer. Designer. And conveniently, it also just solves everyone else's problems too. I just need a design project.
- [65:39]
C
I'm really grateful because it's making our
- [65:42]
A
lives so much easier. Okay, last question for you. What is one of your current favorite features of programa that some people overlook?
- [65:50]
B
Now, if you'd like to ask me to, like, choose a favorite child, which I maybe would do. Couple of things. So we've got ad from URL that is Is.
- [66:00]
A
Yes.
- [66:01]
B
Wild scenes. So basically you take just like the vendor website and then bang it in the schedule, and then bang, like, automatically adds your product.
- [66:09]
C
It's all filled out.
- [66:10]
B
Yeah, we've got that same thing. So, like, if for some reason the vendors block spots from taking, like, scraping their data, you can go onto their website and we can do it manually for you, but it still automates the whole process. So that's great. Circumvents that whole thing. And then, then probably my next favorite one is what I was just telling you about called, well, working title is Studio os. So like Studio operating System because it's like the first step towards our broader plan, which is very exciting. But we've got a ton of other stuff in the works at the moment too. We're doing budgeting. I've got a workshop right after this call where we're going through some of our next stage designs. We've got an entire refresh coming to schedules as well. But don't freak out. It's not like going to be a huge relearning curve or anything like that. It's going to make it heaps easier, more flexible and then, yeah, like I was talking about that sketchup extension as well is kind of my baby in the office.
- [67:05]
A
So I mean there's so much good coming. I am, yeah, I'm so excited. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, before we go, first of all, thank you for all of your time. I know you're so busy and it's still kind of morning I think in Australia. So.
- [67:26]
B
Yep.
- [67:27]
A
Yeah, we're good. Okay, good. Before we go, cti, our tagline is interiors that make you feel. What is something that made you feel recently?
- [67:38]
B
Oh God. This week has been a roller coaster, I'm not gonna lie. So my, I mean this is maybe a bit of a downer, but my brother lives in Dubai, so my sister in law and their babies.
- [67:50]
A
That's so scary.
- [67:51]
B
Yeah, so that has been a bit of a like feeling a bit helpless on the other side of the world. They are safe, they are getting through it. They've rocked a little bit, but they have a very sunny disposition about, you know, the whole thing. But no.
- [68:07]
A
So that was scary a lot.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah, super scary. They've lived in the Middle east for a while, so this isn't really their first red arrow. But being on the other side of the world, not being able to do anything really puts things in perspective for you. We just like.
- [68:18]
A
Absolutely.
- [68:18]
B
Okay. Really what I was worried about doesn't matter. Second thing, we just put out a new campaign which is somewhat based on my lived experience, but don't really want to say that in case like, you know, I get sued. But it's like a very raw, loosely based on someone I might know. But yeah. So we put out this new campaign. It's all about like the raw, the gritty, unbuilted day in the life of a designer and how fucking tumultuous and stressful it can be. And the reception to it has just been incredible. Like, people have just been like, I feel seen, I feel validated. Finally someone is actually putting out a true picture of what being a designer is. And it's not fluffing cushions and picking colors. It's I've locked myself in the bathroom, I'm having a vape because I need a moment to myself.
- [69:11]
A
It's no literature.
- [69:14]
C
Yeah.
- [69:14]
A
So you guys are the marketing. You guys are killing it.
- [69:18]
B
Yeah, guys are great. We love them. So, yeah, that was really lovely because it was like a bit edgy, a little bit controversial. It's a bit different to kind of what you've seen out there. So I'm just loving the fact that the reception's been really strong. And then the last one is because we've got such a great team. I know everyone says that, but I'm like genuinely the Kris Jenner of programmer. I'm walking around all day, I'm like, you're doing great.
- [69:39]
C
I love you so much. It's so good.
- [69:41]
A
You're doing amazing.
- [69:42]
B
Amazing. So everyone in our company got stock, got shares, and Programmer. So literally right down to like one of the girls. Ellie only started with it. It was her second week and she got shares. So everyone has an ownership in Programmer. So that, you know, my success or our success is literally everyone's success. Now.
- [70:01]
A
That's gotta be such a rewarding feeling. Oh, my God, I can only imagine.
- [70:06]
B
And the way, yeah, like, the way things are going, like, it could be genuinely meaningful amount of money, life changing.
- [70:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [70:13]
B
The vibes are so high. The vibes are excellent. Everyone is so dialed in.
- [70:17]
C
Like, I can believe it.
- [70:18]
B
Yeah, they were incredible before, but now it's just like everyone is running the show like it's their own business.
- [70:24]
A
Ownership makes a huge difference. Yes.
- [70:27]
B
Oh, I love it, I love it. So I'm just like walking around the office like a little proud mom.
- [70:31]
C
I'm like, yay, such a good job.
- [70:34]
B
So, yeah, it's really, it's fun because we have our weekly check in meetings and everyone is so dialed into like, okay, what is revenue at this week? You need to hit this. What can I do? Blah, blah, blah. And it's just. Yeah, it's amazing.
- [70:45]
A
That's incredible. Okay, well, last question for you. Where can we find you and Programa?
- [70:51]
B
Ooh. Okay, so. Oh, Rogramma HQ is our Instagram account. You Almost got me there then. Programma P R O G R A M A like program with an A on the end com. You can book in for a training session or a demo anytime you want. We've got team all around the world, in Australia and New Zealand, in la, in Toronto, in London. So you are bound to get in touch with one of our design team, who are all interior designers, by the
- [71:21]
A
way, as well, which makes a massive difference.
- [71:24]
C
Yeah.
- [71:25]
B
If you came to see what we do, if you, you know, want to take a bit of a peek behind the curtain, definitely book in for a time. Otherwise, we are just about to launch our new website. So you'll get to see the entire new reef platform, I think, as of maybe a week or two. Yeah.
- [71:43]
A
Oh, my God. Well, I can't wait to keep seeing what you guys do. Congratulations, Zoe. You're killing it.
- [71:49]
B
Thank you so much.
- [71:49]
A
I'm so excited. And thank you for letting us be a small part of it. I mean, I'm just in awe. So thank you.
- [71:57]
B
Love it. Thank you.
- [71:58]
A
Thank you all for listening. Until next week. Peace be with you.
- [72:01]
B
Bye,
- [72:05]
A
Sam.