I Confess... I Hired A Kleptomaniac

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Confessions of an Interior Designer
Episode: I Confess... I Hired A Kleptomaniac
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: James Hunter (Design Director, The Wiseman Group)
Date: April 8, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Caroline welcomes James Hunter, a renowned design director at The Wiseman Group, for a lively, candid conversation about the less-glamorous realities of luxury interior design. They reflect on career paths, mentoring in the design world, and react to two anonymous listener confessions dealing with crisis situations: the discovery that a new hire was stealing from a client, and confronting a contractor impaired on the job. The episode is full of industry wisdom, heartfelt advice, and plenty of memorable, humorous moments.

---

Guest Introduction & Career Journey

(00:04–09:32)

• James Hunter’s Background:

  • Formal training in art education and textile design (University at Buffalo, NY).
  • Unexpected start in interior design via a student project at a showcase house.

    “It was mostly just, I want to see the house. So I submitted my name…” (01:17, James)

  • Childhood creativity: Building a large Barbie dollhouse for his sisters using found objects.

    “We cut the quarts down and made them into chairs...I used a chess pawn with a toothpaste cap as a lamp.” (03:13, James)

  • Transitioned careers from law firm admin to creative pursuits, culminating in launching his own design projects.

• Career Evolution:

  • Grew through word-of-mouth referrals and gradually raised his rates with experience.
  • Eventually joined The Wiseman Group, attracted by the chance to learn from top designers and access larger-scale, high-budget projects.

• Reflections:

  • Stresses the importance of long-term client relationships and repeat business.

    “The relationships evolve and get better, and then it’s easier with each project because you know their taste, they trust you...” (09:30, James)

---

Mentorship, Team Building, and Firm Culture

(09:33–21:15)

• Mentoring Next-Gen Designers:

  • James is focused on mentoring and empowering associate directors and junior staff.
  • Prioritizes hiring “smart” people over those with just experience.

    “It’s literally, you know, five letter word: smart. I hire smart. I don’t care if they have experience so much...If they’re smart, they can really learn.” (16:32, James)

  • Value in internships and real exposure to the field.

• Wiseman Group Culture:

  • Retains talent by fostering respect, transparency, and kindness.

    “Paul [Wiseman] sets a tone of respect and transparency. We’re not screamers in our office.” (18:37, James)

  • Open discussion about the challenges of the industry: high pressure, project logistics, client expectations, and the necessity of paperwork.

---

Listener Confession #1: The Kleptomaniac New Hire

(23:37–36:38)

• Story Recap:

  • Designer discovers through a team member that a recently hired junior designer is stealing personal items from a client's home—a Kendra Scott bracelet, stuffed animal, sunglasses, etc.
  • The incident escalates: confrontation, confession, firing, and major damage control with the client to salvage trust and avoid legal issues.

• Discussion & Takeaways:

  • Both stressed the vulnerability of designers in clients’ personal spaces.

    “We know so much about our clients, we design drawers for jewelry and watches...We know exactly where everything is.” (32:10, Caroline)

  • Importance of trust as the foundation of client relationships.

    “If you lose that trust, it’s not only that client you lose, but sometimes referrals...” (35:42, James)

  • No foolproof way to foresee such behavior in hiring; focus on rebuilding trust through presence and transparency.

    “I personally am handling every single meeting, every single appointment...from here on out.” (34:08, Caroline)

• Penitence/Advice:

  • Over-communicate with clients and take personal responsibility on site after such events.
  • Address issues with the offending employee compassionately, recommending counseling or support for compulsive behaviors.

---

Listener Confession #2: Confronting an Impaired Subcontractor

(38:13–47:44)

• Story Recap:

  • A designer finds evidence that a painter, hired through referral, is impaired on the job—empty bottles and erratic behavior.
  • Designer documents the incident and safely dismisses the painter, emphasizing safety for herself and her client.

• Discussion & Advice:

  • The unpredictability of subcontractors’ personal circumstances and risk in high-stakes environments.

    “Every individual we work with brings their own set of baggage with them... some bring great things, some bring disadvantages.” (41:46, James)

  • Always prioritize swift action for safety and legal reasons.

    “If you see something going south, deal with it immediately. It’s not going to get better.” (43:10, James)

  • Use project supervisors for daily oversight when possible; formalize site rules (e.g., no smoking/drinking signage).
  • Consider transferring liability by referring subs to be hired directly by clients or through general contractors.

    “We very rarely hire our own subs like that…” (43:45, Caroline)

• Penitence/Consequences:

  • For the designer: self-care tip, and possibly investing in a site supervisor.
  • For the painter: pointed to need for rehab and clear enforceable jobsite rules.

---

Additional Memorable Discussion Highlights

• On Mentoring:

  “Helping promote and mentor [upcoming designers]...That is something sometimes missing in our industry, and people like you are the trailblazers…” (14:50, Caroline)

• On Trust:

  "The heart of what we’re talking about is client trust... you can lose it in a second.” (35:42, James)

• On Team Goals:

  • James asks his team their personal goals at the start of installs to align on client satisfaction as the top priority.

    “The goal is always client satisfaction. All other goals support that.” (37:13, James)

---

Rapid Fire & Reflections

(49:17–60:08)

• On the Influence of Place:

  • James describes how living in various locations (urban high-rise, Michigan farmhouse, Palm Springs condo) shapes his aesthetic: from urban dark, moody rooms to light-filled, sun-drenched desert interiors.

    “I go from the dark urban to the bright desert.” (50:50, James)

• Evolution at the Wiseman Group:

  • Growth in employee empowerment, sharing financials, encouraging open dialogue, and fostering cross-team collaboration.

    “Now everybody has a chance to have a voice. There really isn’t a bad idea.” (52:22, James)

• On Travel as Inspiration:

  • Recent trips to Singapore, Bangkok, and Cambodia offered fresh perspectives, influencing his vision for materials, color, and forms.

    “When you travel and see architecture in situ, you can look at every book...but when you see it—it’s inspirational.” (57:49, James)

• Most Moving Recent Experience:

  • Describes sunrise at Angkor Wat, reflecting on the passage of time, history, and mindfulness.

    “There’s the sun coming up. It’s this beautiful relationship between time, the passage of time, history…” (59:24, James)

---

Notable Quotes

• “I started out just wanting to see the house. I got accepted, and, you know, my career started from there.”
  — James Hunter, (01:17)

• “The heart of what we’re talking about is client trust. That’s so central...and you can lose it in a second.”
  — James Hunter, (35:42)

• “I hire smart. I don’t care if they have experience so much…If they’re smart, they can really…learn.”
  — James Hunter, (16:32)

• “We know so much about our clients… I could name certain things in my client’s closet—obviously, they would not want someone else to have that information.”
  — Caroline Turner, (32:10)

• “If you see something going south, deal with it immediately. It’s not going to get better.”
  — James Hunter, (43:10)

• “It’s never about the thing that went wrong…It’s the how will this affect our relationship with the client?”
  — Caroline, (36:04)

---

Actionable Tips & Takeaways

• For Design Leaders:

  • Prioritize trust, open communication, and clear boundaries with clients and staff.
  • Hire “smart” over “credentialed” when building effective design teams.
  • Use team meetings to align on primary project goals and client satisfaction.

• For Crisis Management:

  • Address theft or impairment swiftly, calmly, and document all facts.
  • After a trust breach, take personal accountability with clients and lead future site visits yourself to reestablish credibility.

• For Business Operations:

  • Use site supervisors and formalized jobsite rules to minimize risk.
  • Consider liability implications when hiring subs, and shift contracts to clients/GCs when possible.
  • Invest in your team’s development and satisfaction; transparency breeds buy-in and long-term retention.

• For Design Inspiration:

  • Draw inspiration from travel and different living environments.
  • Stay engaged in professional organizations and seek experiences beyond the local.

---

Closing

This episode peels back the curtain on the interpersonal and business challenges of high-end interior design—showing that skill, integrity, and compassion matter as much as aesthetics. Through heartbreak, humor, and hard-earned wisdom, Caroline and James share advice that’s as real as it is generous.

---

Find James Hunter & The Wiseman Group:

• Website: wisemangroup.com
• Instagram: @thewisemangroup
• Paul Vincent Wiseman Instagram: Search for Paul’s account for insights on design and lifestyle.

Connect with the Podcast:

• Submit your anonymous confession: carolineturner.co/confessions
• Join the community: Instagram | Facebook Group
• Listen on your preferred platform!

---

Memorable Farewell:

"You are a well of information and I feel like, like I've learned a lot from you... Until next week, peace be with you." (61:35, Caroline)

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by James Hunter, design director for the Wiseman Group. With formal training in art education and textile and surface design. He brings a strong sense of scale, color, and proportion to his work and a perspective shaped by extensive travel and time spent living all around the country. He has been widely published, is a two time Lux Gold list honoree, and has been recognized as part of architectural digest 8100. I'm so honored to have you. Thank you. James, welcome.

[B]

Hey. Thank you. It's great to be here.

[A]

Yeah. This is going to be fun. Okay. Well, as we typically start these episodes, I like to learn a little bit about how you, meaning how you got here in your career. So give us the quick and dirty version.

[B]

Okay. So I studied art education in Western New York at Buffalo University. And as part of that training, I focused on textile design and surface printing. And while I was doing some graduate work, they were doing a local decorator showcase house. And it was a really cool house, and I wanted to see it. It was mostly just, I want to see the house. So I submitted my name, got to go tour the house, and then I made a proposal and it got accepted. So it was a. It was a student space that was set up, you know, for students to do. The rest of the house was all done by local designers, and I got that project and did that, and it was a real taste for interior design.

[A]

Yeah, I think we should bring that back. I wish we still had student spaces in these show houses. That would be so interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How brilliant. Because, I mean, young people in this industry often have some of the freshest ideas. I mean, they're untainted by years of doing this, so they just have so many original thoughts and feelings, and I think it's so cool. I need to talk to our show house here because that's amazing. Well. And what a leap to take for you to just be like, yeah, I mean, I want to see the house. I may as well apply. That's pretty fabulous.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. But it did follow a little bit of a hint of where I was headed from my years.

[A]

Sure, sure. Where did you grow up originally? I do. Absolutely. I was just gonna say give that to me, if you're willing.

[B]

Well, it's kind of a. It's kind of a funny story. But I'm from a large family. I have three brothers and eight sisters.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. The estrogen in your house.

[B]

And I have three younger sisters. And of course, they all had Barbie dolls. This is pre the Barbie mov. Pre the Barbie movie.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And I decided to make a dollhouse for my sisters for their Barbies.

[A]

Oh, that is so lovely.

[B]

Yeah, it was really cool, actually. And my next younger sister helped me and we collected all kinds of things to make furniture with. And because we're a large family, my mother used to buy milk in gallons, but I convinced her to buy it in quartz. And so we would cut the quartz down and make them into chairs, put three together, make a sofa. I used a chest pawn with a toothpaste cap as a lamp. And you can imagine it looks just like a lamp, right?

[A]

Yes. That's brilliant. Wow.

[B]

And my mother had just completed minor refresh of our house, so there's a lot of materials left over. So I used some of the flooring and, you know, different things like that. Oh. So I made a dollhouse for my sisters. It was kind of big. The floor plan was something like, you know, 4 by 8 or 4 by 6 or something like that.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. And it used to sit in my parents bedroom and my sister. And then we made an apartment for Barbie too, of course.

[A]

Oh, my God. So you really have been doing this from a young age. You were like, I'm doing this no matter what that is. Were your sisters thrilled?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Big brother of the year award. I love that. Well, and so do you feel like your family nurtured that in you? That sort of like, want? It sounds like they were. I mean, your mom bought the courts. It sounds like they were willing to. But is that something that, where you grew up, that was a job? Like, did you say to yourself, I could do this when I grow up, or was it just something that you found yourself interested in?

[B]

So I studied art education originally and I did my graduate and my undergraduate and graduate degree in art education. But then I, like I mentioned, I did a focus on textile design, surface printing. I did some postgraduate work on that. But I actually thought when I went to graduate school that I'd go for architecture, and I thought that was a career. So I talked to a couple people I knew, and one of them was doing bulletproof windows for banks, and the other one was doing bulletproof doors for prisons. And I thought, yeah, I don't think I really want to do that.

[A]

I don't want to be an architect. Actually, yeah.

[B]

But Buffalo, New York is famous for architecture by Frank Lloyd Wright and Louis Sullivan. And so I had a taste of what architecture was about, but I had no idea I could possibly be, you know, I'd be working in some firm and some lower level position is kind of what I. And so I pursued art education, but eventually interior design found me.

[A]

I mean, that's kind of the best stories, right? Interior design often does find you when it's meant for you, when the timing's right. Well, I love that. So how did you get from deciding to do the show house to where you are now?

[B]

Interestingly enough, I started, you know, I worked in a law firm for a while and it wasn't very creative. And so at one point I thought, okay, I'm going to go into something more creative. I thought it'd be like arts management or administration. So one day I quit my job and I went home, laid on the sofa and cried and said, what did you do? You know, I was making good money. I was making good money. It was a good job, but I knew I needed, you know, it wasn't fulfilling my soul. And I thought, well, okay, I've got some money because I saved money, I have some time. So I decided to decorate my apartment with my free time. And it was really fun to do and I enjoyed it. And I did a lot of things myself. I did hand painted oil cloth for the floors and made my own curtains. I reupholstered my own furniture. And it was really fun. It was all, you know, just learning how to do it. And one of my friends bought a house, he asked me to help him, so I did his house. And my uncle saw what I did for my friend, so I helped him. Then my cousin saw what he did for my uncle, so I helped her. And I realized I'm working harder and not getting paid than I did when I had a job. So I decided it was time to figure out how to make money doing it smart. And since I wasn't specifically trained in interior design, I took a job with a local upholstery wall, upholstery and drapery company to learn a little bit more about the industry. And I had an agreement with them that I could do projects on the side. And so from my experience at the law firm, a couple of the lawyers hired me to help them with their homes. And I would raise my rate each time I did a project because I learned more, had more resources, had more skills, going as you should. And they and the friends was a great kind of gig. For a while. And then one of my friends referred me to someone that I didn't know, had never met. And that was my first official client where I had no relationship to them. And I did a proposal. They liked what I did.

[A]

Such a big moment. Yeah.

[B]

It was really cool. And funny enough, because I'm now late in my career, that client. I did their home. They later got divorced, and I did his new house. And then later on, she hired me to do her new house. And when she hired me to do her new house, I was already working at the Wiseman Group. So she came in as one of the first clients I brought to the firm.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And now, just last year, she called me for a refresh of her apartment.

[A]

Oh, fabulous.

[B]

And I went over, and I walked in, and it was exactly like I had left it. And I had done this apartment about 27 years ago.

[A]

What a testament to your talent. Wow. That's incredible. Wow. No one does that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it was sort of, like, kind of crazy. The only change was she got a new man in her life. He brought a lot of art to the situation.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so we had to accommodate the art. Yeah. So we did a refresh. We changed some paint colors. We added some wallpaper. We kind of modified a bathroom. Bedroom situation. Modified. A study office situation. And it was super fun. And I kind of feel like this full circle kind of thing has been happening to me a little bit. So it's really fun.

[A]

I think that's a testament to your talent, because two people who cannot agree on anything seemingly, or most things seemingly, still hired you separately, together and separately, and then hired you again down the line. I mean, that is the ultimate compliment as an interior designer. I. That is. Wow. You should be very proud of yourself. I mean, I'm sure you are.

[B]

Yeah. It was really great. And I've been very, very fortunate to have a lot of referrals from clients now. And existing clients have come back multiple times. I've done many projects for one particular client, several for another. I just finished a fourth one for a client, and we're working on the 5th. So it's pretty exciting. And the relationships evolve and get better, and then it's easier with each project. Cause you know their taste, you know

[A]

their trust you, and. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And they're willing to take risks that they might not have on the first project. One of my clients, I showed her a beautiful Fornicity cabinet early on on her first project, and she said, I don't know if we're that cool, but I really like it. And now she's been buying amazing things. Really amazing things.

[A]

I mean, in some ways, you. Or I'll speak for myself. When I started, I was 24, so some of these families, like, I grew up as their families were growing up, and you sort of grow up together, and then you grow into new phases together. And it's really, um. Yeah, it's lovely. And there's something like community oriented in that that I think is worthwhile for sure. Okay, you had just referenced that you had. Were already at the Wiseman Group when a former client came back to you, and she was the first client at the Wiseman Group. How did you decide to make that transition from doing it by yourself to then being brought in? Tell me about that time and sort of why that was the right decision for you.

[B]

Oh, that's a great question. Because I was on my own for a little while. I had transitioned from working with the upholstery company, and then I was doing. Because I started with these little projects and then was doing my own thing, and it was going really well. But I did have a project where my millworker buddy kind of got himself in trouble. I advanced him some money, and then he couldn't finish the job. I had to hire someone else to finish the job, and then I had to find someone else to do the finishing of that project. So it cost me quite a bit of money.

[A]

Yeah, I can imagine it did.

[B]

You can't charge a client for those kinds of things. It's on you. And so that's a hard lesson to learn when you're young and new in the industry.

[A]

Yes, it is. Yep.

[B]

But I also got to a point where I was doing some nice work. I was really busy, and I thought, you know, I need to either bring somebody on to help me. And then the guys who I had worked for doing the upholstery said, hey, you know, the Wiseman Group is hiring. You'd be perfect there. They thought my taste and sensibility kind of merged with what the Wise Group work was. And I knew about the Wise Group because I had done a couple things when I worked for the upholstery people for the Wiseman Group. They were a client. And so I thought, okay, they said, they're hiring. Why don't you talk to them? So I talked to them and they hired me, and I was kind of like, well, we'll see if it works. Doesn't work. And I still had a project I was working on, and I had agreed with that client to do it in Phases. So I figured when phase one ends, we'll see if they want to come on as a Wise Group client or I'll let them go. And so the Wise Group agreed to let me finish that project while I was working for them. And then when I finished phase one, I realized they probably weren't an ideal situation to bring him on as a client. And I was really busy with work with the Wiseman Group and so I just continued with that and I've been there ever since.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And it's been a long time.

[A]

I mean, that is such a interesting transition point, especially. Cause you said you were doing well. So do you feel like it was sort of best of both worlds? You got the design freedom, the creative freedom that you had before, but you just have a lot more support with the Wiseman Group. Like is it, you know, it's. You're getting to do a lot of the same things or how. I just feel like I would have such a hard time. I have an issue with authority, so that may be why. But I would have such a hard time transitioning from being on my own back to having someone to confer with other than just a client. So I'm curious how you navigated that.

[B]

Yeah, so the main reason I did it was again, I'm self taught in interior design, but I had a lot of experience in art education, which set a really good framework for me because I learned about composition and color and design and all those kinds of things and had special experience with textiles and fabrics. But I kind of thought, why not learn from the best, right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and you know, you don't

[B]

have to stay forever. You can go in there and see how it works out. And I wasn't sure it would work out again. Like you said, being your own boss sometimes is a big difference. But I went in, we got along well and I really felt, you know, kindred spirit in terms of the taste level and. And I got exposure to much wealthier clients and grew. You know, I started out much more junior than I. The work I'd been doing and making a lot less money than I'd made previously, even with the law firm. So, you know, I took a risk, but it was a risk in myself as well. And I feel like it's paid off. I've been there a long time. I've. I'm now a director. I started out as the project manager. I've learned a lot. I've had amazing clients and it's been a really good experience.

[A]

That's the ideal scenario. I Mean, that's incredible. To your point, for something that may or may not work out, to be sitting here talking to me all these years later after having worked with them, and that's a testament to you and the Wiseman group. So that's fabulous. And I mean, I know your work. You guys do some incredible work.

[B]

Well, what I've been focused on now, actually, is mentoring the next generation of leadership.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

And I have really excellent. I have two excellent associate design directors. They've been with me many years, you know, in the double digits, 16, 22, that kind of thing. And they have senior designers working under them and with me, and then junior designers as well, and designers. So it's been a really great shift for me now to really help promote and mentor them and empower them to do the work.

[A]

I think that is something that is sometimes missing in our industry, and people like you are the trailblazers who we need to say, like, we cannot do this forever. We need to be able to pass some of this knowledge down, to keep this art form what it is. So I think that's very admirable and something that, you know, not in the same way, but kind of what I'm trying to do, too. The more we can get in and help each other, the better off our industry is as a whole. And I think the more that you teach the generations under you. Yeah. The better off our whole industry and our job. Our job is in general.

[B]

Well, they're incredibly talented, and I think that we've been fortunate at our firm to have people who've worked there a very long time and to keep good employees. They want to be rewarded with a certain level of job satisfaction and being able to be creative. Because, as we all know, and you've talked about this in previous podcasts, our industry is not as glamorous as it seems outside looking in because there's so much paperwork and there's so much tracking and there's so much issues that come up and problems with things that, you know, you're spending a lot less time designing than you'd ever thought you would. And so I want to make sure that they're happy and that they want to stay, and they need those creative opportunities, they need those client relationships, and it's great to watch people grow in their jobs.

[A]

What do you feel like is something that is the thing you look for most when you're either hiring someone new on or looking to mentor someone? Is there like a. Like. Is there like a certain. Like, just, like, sparkle to people or is it hard work? What is it that you. That you're looking for when you're, when you're hiring or just looking to mentor someone?

[B]

It's literally, you know, five letter words. Smart. I hire smart. I don't care if they have experience so much. I don't care what kind of experience they have. If they're smart, I always believe that they can really, you know, they can understand and learn. Obviously, it's nice when people have innate talent. There's a level of our industry that you just have to have a good eye and you have to understand proportion and color and all those things. But usually that's kind of, you know, people come with a certain level of that, but they have to be smart. And I remember I was junior, but we were hiring someone and the person came for the interview and walked out of the office and happened to walk past my desk. And I spoke to her briefly and she's a good friend. Today she ended up getting hired and worked for us. But I remember going back to the office and just saying, you guys, you need to hire her. She's smart. And I realized that makes all the difference. So she came from being a pastry chef at a high end restaurant, but didn't have a lot of design experience. And now she has her own firm. She's done amazing projects with us and gone on to do her own thing. That's really exciting.

[A]

That's something that I think I struggle with is when we're hiring, I sort of feel like, no, we need to hire someone who's been in school because we don't have the time to teach them all the programs and all of that. But often we're missing out on potential talent that otherwise you wouldn't even know exists by having those harsh parameters. So we're actually talking to someone right now who does not have their degree but is working towards it. And I feel like that's ultimately all we really care about, is trying to move forward in this career. And it's something that I need to work on more for sure.

[B]

Well, some of our best hires came in as interns. We don't have a robust intern program now, but we used to. And I thought it was like the best opportunity for people to have exposure to the industry. But also we developed relationships and then they came to work for us. And some of them have been there more than 20 years.

[A]

It sounds like the Wiseman group holds onto their talent for a long time. Why do you think that is? You said a lot about job satisfaction, but is there One specific thing that you feel like you guys do that makes a difference.

[B]

Yeah. The founder of our company is Paul Wiseman. And we've been in business, I think, 47 years. And Paul sets a tone of respect and transparency. We're not screamers in our office. You know, things like that. I mean, you hear stories, you know, you watch Top Chef, right? And you see what happens in the kitchen. Well, kind of happens in the design world, too. I mean, I've been there. Sometimes, you know, the sofa doesn't come on a delivery, and you're like, what the hell? You know, of course. But I think that there's a culture in our company that's respectful and kind and genuine. And I think that's why people stay, really. And then we do amazing work. But if the environment isn't good, people aren't gonna stay. And there are firms, you see, they turn them around.

[A]

Yeah. There are certainly some very famous firms that have the craziest revolving door. And if you're in the industry, you know, because it is. They do beautiful work, but they can't hold onto anybody.

[B]

One of the things I love, though, is we've had a couple employees who have moved for family reasons. They've moved out of a state or something, and they'll go have an interview somewhere, and they'll come back, and they're like, oh, my God. And they're like, don't work for them, you know? And it's just really funny to hear,

[A]

you know, that's happening in my office, too. We have someone leaving who's moving home, and she's doing the same thing. She's interviewing, and she's like, okay, so I might not be able to find exactly what I have here, I'm realizing. Which is, yeah, certainly flattering. But also, if only all of those design firms were sort of evolving with our world and as it's evolving. Cause I also think that's probably pretty

[B]

key, but it's an intense industry. You know, we're in a lot of places.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

On an install to deliver the clients home and have them be happy. And the amounts of money that clients.

[A]

The amounts of money.

[B]

It's a lot of pressure.

[A]

You know, it's a ton. A ton of pressure. And I don't take it lightly that the people who work for me do take on that pressure. I think. I think that's part of being good at your job is naturally feeling some of that pressure yourself. I remember when I was a junior designer, sort of feeling like, I can't take this amount of Pressure. But I think as you're in the industry more and more, it's sort of. You get used to it. And it comes with the territory. Territory. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic, search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right then I tried Programa, and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Doubt it. I wanna ask, before we get into confessions, do you have a vice?

[B]

I kind of know the answer to that. I have to think about it for a minute. Oh, how do I put that? Because it changes over time, you know.

[A]

Yeah, of course. So do mine. And I have so many vices.

[B]

Well, because I don't smoke. I don't smoke, I don't drink. I've never done drugs, you know, so I'm kind of not in that category of things.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But let me see if there's a delicate way to put this. I do enjoy the company of compatriots.

[A]

As you should, by the way. As you should.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yeah, you're in San Francisco, the land of compatriots. So I'm pretty sure that's what you should be doing. I love that vice. I think that is great. I think that's great. And I love how you answered that. Thank you so much.

[B]

And you'll be able to edit that out later, right?

[A]

If you want us to. Of course we can. Of course we can.

[B]

Just for the audience at home, these questions have not been vetted. No, I have not seen these before.

[A]

No, this is all a surprise. We do not give the questions ahead of time. And people often Ask. And I say it's because I don't want them to feel canned, because I don't. I want it to feel, you know, this should feel like a conversation, like with a friend at lunch. And I can tell on other podcasts when people have the questions ahead of time because they're very like my. Like they're robotic almost. And we want it to feel like off the cuff. Which, for better or worse. Okay, now we're gonna get into confession.

[B]

Confession, confession, confession.

[A]

I have a story for you that happened to me a few years ago. I've been in the business for over 20 years and own my own firm as the principal. This project was a first floor remodel where the clients were still living in the house. They were a young couple with two young kids and although well situated, they didn't want to have to move and uproot their lives with small children. I had two of my junior designers on the project with me, one of which we had just recently hired. I wanted her to gain as much hands on experience as possible, so I included them both. It was a great project and going well. But we started getting calls from them after we'd been on site that day asking if we'd seen something or moved something in their home. I remember specifically one of the things was a Kendra Scott bracelet that the wife had just purchased and had left sitting on a vanity. She said she didn't mean to come off accusatory and was just wondering if we had maybe moved it somewhere or at least seen it while we had been there. I asked my designers and neither had seen it. So I apologized and told her we were sorry but hadn't seen it that day. The first time I got that call, I didn't think twice. We get asked that often being in people's homes, as annoying as it is. But when she called a second time saying she hadn't seen her child's brand new stuffed animal in a week, and then a third time asking if we'd seen the sunglasses she left on the kitchen island that morning, I started to get frustrated. I take pride in my business and my reputation and I work very hard for these clients. So it felt quite offensive to me to be consistently questioned if we've been messing with their things or stealing from them. Of course we hadn't, but each time she called, I'd be polite and reassure her we hadn't been in that room or had seen it earlier that morning or whatever information I could honestly give her. I felt bad, but again, annoying and a little bit Offensive. And then after another day on site at that project, I'd come home and was making dinner when I got a call from one of my junior designers. We really tried not to call outside of work hours, so I knew it must be important. I answered and asked what was going on, and she seemed nervous. I thought at first she was going to tell me she was leaving. She said she needed to tell me something for context. She and our other junior designer, the new one we just hired, carpooled home together. She, the one calling me, didn't have a car, so I had driven her to site but had to leave early. So the other designer drove her home. And what she told me was that after the site visit today, she got in the car and put her things in the backseat and noticed what looked like a Kendra Scott bracelet had fallen out of a bag on the floor of the car. And out of curiosity, knowing that it was eerily similar to what the client had described, she looked inside the rest of the bag and saw the exact I have chills all over my body. And saw the exact stuffed animal that the client had called about. The poor girl was so nervous, saying maybe it was a coincidence and she wasn't trying to get the other girl in trouble, but she felt she had to say something. And I was thinking the same thing. Could it be a coincidence? Any chance she had seen it wrong, but she knew what she saw. I went through all the stages of grief. At first I was shocked, obviously, and then was trying to think of all other possible explanations. But ultimately I was angry. This reflected on me. This was my business, my reputation, and my finances that would be affected if this was true. I went to bed that night thinking through the conversation I'd have to have with her the next day. It was not fun. I really feel for this woman. This is a nightmare scenario. The next day, when I pulled her into my office, she already looked very nervous. I told her something like, we've had a few reasons to believe some items may have left the site and may have been in your possession. Can you tell me truthfully what happened? The moment I said it, her face went red. She froze and started stammering about how she wasn't sure, didn't know, hadn't seen it, whatever. But I started pushing a little, saying how there could be legal trouble and it was best she was honest with me, which was entirely true. And then she started crying and confessed. She said she didn't know why she did it. She felt so bad and thought no one would notice. She said she'd give it all back. Yeah. I was fuming inside, so I had to call the clients, which was just a lovely conversation to have. I explained exactly what happened and apologized profusely. Told her we would be terminating the employee and would return everything. I was mortified and truly felt awful for the additional stress we caused. I told her we cared deeply about our relationship with them, and ultimately she didn't fire us as long as that designer would never be back on site, which was not a problem with me at all. I'd already sent her home. She and I were lucky that they didn't press charges because the stealing she had done had been under my name. And on my thinking about that aspect of it is what made me the most furious. It was beyond embarrassing. And the trust that had been betrayed never fully returned. Wow.

[B]

That is amazing.

[A]

That is wild. I mean, clearly, she's a kleptomaniac. Sounds like she, like, doesn't have control over what she steals, because that just doesn't make any sense. Like, if you're trying to be a thief, you don't steal things that are out in the open or that are, like, things that don't mean anything to you. A kid, stuffed animal. Why would you want that? But if you're a kleptomaniac, you have, like, a compulsion that you can't. I mean, some people can, but some people who don't maybe haven't done the work or need to go to therapy or something physically feel like they can't stop themselves. That's the only thing I can think of in this scenario is that. Because who. You know you're gonna get caught. That's so, like, point A to point B to point. To point C. Like, I don't. It's. Yeah. To be the employee who is stealing things, it's very confusing.

[B]

Well, there's a lot of. There's a lot of things that are rolled into that scenario. One of the things I consistently have a concern about is we work with very, very wealthy clients and people on our team, subcontractors that we bring in, movers, upholsterers, painters, refinishers, whatever that have to come to the home. A lot of times people are coming into homes that are nothing like what they grew up in, nothing like they've experienced in their life. They don't have rooms like that. They don't have items like that. And for a lot of homeowners that are wealthy with children and whatnot, things are just left out. You know, kids don't put things away.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And those kids are privileged, and they

[A]

have things, five iPads. So there's one in every room, and they're just out.

[B]

Yeah. And so you have this odd mix between, you know, people with resources, people without resources, and then it's a little bit of, like, access. Right. I often think, don't leave anything in your car. It just might make someone walk by and say, hey, hey, I want to put in that bag. Versus you don't see the bag, you walk by. We did a photo shoot for a client, and during the photo shoot, the clients went out of town. We had access to the house, and we're up in the primary bedroom. And in the primary dressing room, she's left this giant diamond ring on the countertop. Giant diamond ring. And I'm like, oh, my God. Glad I saw it first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, you have people in there that, you know, you don't know what someone's situation is. But we clearly expect that everybody's gonna be trustworthy on a project. Of course, you know, I put it away, and we move on and we do the photo shoot. Well, then after the photo shoot, the client called, and she couldn't find a little, like, a iPad type thing, you know, a small device. And, you know, clearly we moved a lot of things.

[A]

Yeah, of course, for the photo shoot.

[B]

And it was on a desk area. It was a desk area that we had moved everything and don't know where it went. You know, presumably it's still there somewhere, but we don't know. And we just assumed, you know, we must have moved it and didn't put it back. And it's somewhere. It's not obvious, but there's always that gnawing thought in the back of your mind. Was anyone in the house not supervised or that we didn't know that wasn't part of our team because, you know, I could trust our team and you don't know. And so it could have happened anytime. Or one of the kids could have taken it somewhere and left it. And she doesn't know that happened. But we're always responsible when we're in someone's house. But I've been in clients houses where they left safes open with money, you know, they have left watches, you know, just like, all kinds of stuff, because it's their home, and they should be able to do that. Of course. And they should trust that if someone's coming in, particularly the designer, they've been vetted. They don't have to worry about it, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we know so much about Our clients, we design drawers for jewelry and watches and expensive things all the time.

[A]

We know exactly where everything is. Yes, exactly. I mean, we could. Yes. I could name certain things in my client's closet that obviously they would not want someone else to have that information. I mean, that is a big part of what we do. So you're right. It's crucial to have that trust.

[B]

And we have security codes. We have a lot of codes. We have houses. Yeah, exactly. And we're always concerned about, you know, protecting their information.

[A]

And, you know, things certainly happen. And to your point, things can get misplaced. But finding out that your employee has been stealing from your client is. Is genuinely a nightmare. I would not know what to do.

[B]

I did have that happen once when I worked for the law firm.

[A]

Oh. Yeah.

[B]

There was a. There was a administrative assistant who took advantage of the situation, and that was unfortunate.

[A]

That happens to a lot of law firms. A lot of law firms. And I've heard from a couple other designers that. I mean, you hear randomly, people will be celebrities and have their brother running their accounting because they can only trust their family. And then you find out that their family wiped them out. Like, it's sometimes that you feel like there's no one you can trust. Unless. Yeah. So, anyway, I digress. But I do think that for some penance. My thing is, I don't even know what penance to give the designer, because how do you avoid this happening? It's one of those things that's like. I don't know that you could. You would have been able to tell that she's a klepto in the interview. Like, she's not gonna make that known about herself. So it was just such an unfortunate thing that happened. I think that my penance for myself would be that I personally am handling every single meeting, every single appointment, every single everything from here on out. Just me, no one else. No matter what. I will be the point person for every single detail for that project moving forward. Just because I would feel so uncomfortable.

[B]

Well, I think that's actually a good idea, because you have to reestablish that trust with the client.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I'm sure that particular client didn't blame the designer.

[A]

No, it sounds like.

[B]

No, but you have to show the client the. You know, obviously you have to show the client that you appreciate their giving you that room, and you be the one to show up. You don't bring a lot of other people because they have to get comfortable again with you. They just do.

[A]

Exactly. And if you can say, like, I know for a fact this didn't happen. Cause I was there every second of that day. I would sleep better at night knowing that I could say that. Whereas, you know, I send my employees to job sites without me. I trust them implicitly. But if a client were to call me and say something was missing, I can't personally say that I didn't see anyone touch any. You know what I mean? Like, and so it feels like, yes, them being on site more consistently with the client. And to your point, rebuilding that trust is probably what that penance needs to be. Maybe the penance for the employee. I'm kind of wondering if she might need to be scared straight. Like if she needs to go to one of those programs where you're scared straight, not actual jail, but maybe just like. Like a preview.

[B]

Well, even just recommending that they get therapy or something at least.

[A]

Definitely therapy.

[B]

Because you also have a responsibility as the former employer to, you know, not just let them go, but let them go with some advice on what they could do to solve the problem.

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

Because that problem won't go away on its own.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I think the heart of what we're talking about is the client trust issue. And that is so central to every relationship we have with our clients. And it starts and has to be built and you can lose it in a second. And if you lose that trust, it's not only that client you lose, but sometimes referrals or they talk to their friends that you've done work for. So our relationships to clients are extremely important.

[A]

They are one of the most important things we have, which I think is, frankly, what makes this job sometimes feel so high stakes. To me. It's never about the thing that went wrong. The sofa didn't show up, the thing got. Is broken, the color is wrong, whatever, because I. I know we will fix it. It's the how will this affect our relationship with the client? That is always the thing that is keeping me awake at night and sort of affecting. I feel the mental health of people around us. Because it feels very intense. That is for sure.

[B]

I love that you mentioned that, because earlier this year, last year, in the summer, we did a big install for a client and the install took longer than it usually does. And it was a little bit challenging. And there were some dynamics at play that were difficult. But after the install, I had a meeting with my team and asked each one of them what their goal was. You know, what was your goal on the install? And it was interesting to get their input because their goal was that all the paperwork was good and someone's goal was that all the furniture was beautiful and that kind of thing. But ultimately, for me, the goal is always that the client satisfaction.

[A]

At the end of the day, it

[B]

was surprising me to learn that they each had a different goal, which then didn't always come together with that idea that well. But it's more important that the client satisfaction, meaning, yeah, it's okay if that sofa comes later in their mind, because it's going to be done. It's going to be beautiful. In my mind, the client wants to move into their house and not see an empty room. And so it's kind of like we got to be aligned on the master big vision goals, and then from there, we can all have our special roles.

[A]

Yes, that is very smart. I never would have thought to ask my team that, what is your goal for this? But that is a brilliant question. And what a great way to not, like, lead them to water, but to be able to truly get their opinion. And also then how can we improve moving forward to all get on the same page to do the client satisfaction is the priority. And then to your point, then B, for each individual person can be something slightly different.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I'm gonna use that. If you're okay with that. I might steal that because that's very, very smart.

[B]

It's a great way to start the install on a project or even just start a project. Like, okay, here's our primary goal. What are you guys gonna do to get us there? And then do you understand that that's the goal?

[A]

That's the goal. Yeah. I think that's great. And it's expectation setting which employees want. Clear is kind. They like expectations. So I think expectation setting is. It's never done me wrong. That's for sure. For sure, for sure. Second confession. This one is still kind of on my mind because it happened very recently. I was working on a residential renovation that had a full interior repaint as part of the scope. We hired a painter who had come through a referral. He had experience and seemed reliable in conversations, so everything felt fine. I came by one afternoon for a site visit and greeted him like usual. I said hello and started asking how things were progressing for a second. He didn't respond right away, like he hadn't fully registered that I was there. And when he did answer, his voice sounded kind of slurred and he sounded very confused, like he wasn't expecting me there. It was weird. I didn't jump to conclusions in that moment. So instead of engaging Further right away, I simply said I'd walk the site and take a look at the work. As I walked through the space, just doing a routine check of the progress, things kept looking off. I was noticing small details, like how some of the edges along the trim weren't as crisp as I expected. A few spots needed cleanup, and there were faint drips in places that should have been caught immediately. Not the level of finish expected for that home or for what he was getting paid. And then in one of the rooms, behind a tarp that had been left on the floor, I noticed several empty bottles, kind of half hidden, sitting beside it. And on the floor in the next room was another bottle, partially hidden behind a stack of supplies. I just felt dread in my system because I realized what was happening here and the realization of what it could mean for safety, for professionalism, and for the integrity of the work happening in the space. And that's my thing. On projects like this, especially in occupied or high value homes, safety standards are non negot. Painters work with ladders, tools, solvents, open containers of materials. Even small mistakes can become serious quickly. There's also liability involved. Most contracts and insurance policies clearly prohibit impairment on site. So I documented everything carefully. Photos, timestamps, notes. I wanted to be sure I had evidence, and I intended to approach it calmly. I showed him the images and said something simple along the lines of, can you help me understand what these bottles are from? He told me they were from earlier, that they weren't his, that it was just trash. But his explanation felt rushed and inconsistent, and the tone was super defensive. And when I didn't just let it go, his demeanor shifted. He insisted I was overreacting and implied I was misinterpreting what I had seen. He stepped closer in a way that made me very uncomfortable. The energy changed completely, and I realized there was no one else on site at that time. It was scary. That is scary. I asked him to please go and we'd follow up with him about moving forward, or rather, not moving forward, because I really didn't feel safe. I even called my project manager just to have someone else there hearing the conversation. Obviously, he was fired, but I'm curious, how would you have handled this? Do you have any tips to prevent this from happening from the start? It feels like something I could not have foreseen, but I obviously want to protect myself as much as possible. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[B]

Wow. Well, so things happen. And every individual that we work with, whether they're subs, employees, whatever, bring their own set of baggage with them. Right. Some. Some bring great things and some bring some disadvantages. And I think we have seen this before. We have some subs that we know don't perform under the best circumstances. Trying to get a call back is difficult and you kind of start to begin to learn why. You know, sometimes they're gone for a coup days and then they show up again. Things like that. In a scenario like this, you don't know going into it, but most jobs do have a project supervisor and it's kind of good if the supervisor knows and sees what's going on to kind of give a heads up. You know, every situation's set up differently. Sometimes you might hire someone directly. In this case, it sounds a little bit like the designer did. I think the designer handled it well. It is a little risky if someone's under the influence in a situation like that to confront them then, and maybe it's better to confront later. But you have to address it and you have to address it as quickly as you can. And I think that's really the best advice is just if you see something going south, deal it immediately. It's not going to get better and you wouldn't risk not only your own safety, but the safety of that person and other players. So you've just got to get to these things.

[A]

And legally, if something were to happen, he, you know, knocks over a can of turpentine, lights a cigarette and the whole house goes up in flames and it's found out that you knew that he was potentially impaired on sight. That becomes a legal nightmare for the designer. I mean, you almost, it's like you almost have no choice but to say something and handle the situation in that moment or you will be causing a potentially much bigger issue for yourself. I mean, granted, I'm certain this has happened before on my job sites. Like, I'm certain that there are guys drinking when they shouldn't be and all of that. It feels like something that we can't really control. It's also why we very rarely hire our own subs like that. Like often if we're bringing someone on, we will recommend them to the client directly and then we have the client directly contract with them or we'll tie them in with the contractor and we'll let the contractor add a fee on top to manage them. But then that way it's never like liability wise on us. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't still be paying attention making sure the subs are doing their job. But it does help Protect the business interests a little bit, I think, which is helpful because man to man, they can. Sometimes it's just a different dynamic. If the contractor is made aware of it and he says something versus a single woman on site with just another man. I feel like that dynamic could be, could be better for sure.

[B]

Well, and anything that happens in a client's house, particularly during construction or remodels or whatever, it is best to have some kind of site supervisor who's aware on a daily basis how people show up to the job. Even, you know, you can suss something out really quickly right then and there

[A]

and just seeing how they show up. Yeah.

[B]

Like not today, you know, go back home, whatever. But yeah, and we, we do run a lot of risk with the kinds of people we have to hire to bring into projects.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And fully vetting them is also really important. But you never know. Someone could be having a bad day, getting a divorce. You just don't know. I had a job where there was some problems and it was through the contractor, someone that worked for him and the contractor dealt with it quickly and you know, it's just something you have to do.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, I think to your point, as long as it's being dealt with and quickly and in the best way possible, there's not, you know, the designer, the contractor, whoever, are not necessarily at fault. It's just unfortunately something that happens when you're dealing with people. Like sometimes people just become less stable than they were before. I think that's what's so jarring too is I've had it happen to me twice with long time subs of mine where something clearly changed in their personal life that I was not aware of and they had been nothing but trustworthy. I would leave them in a client's home. No question, they were one of my best subs. And then they start showing up and you're like, what's going on? This is not fitting the same way. Whether you can smell it on them or not. You can tell when someone is not as plugged in or is just like a bit more disorganized than they normally are. And so. But I didn't know until he showed up to the job and I had to be like, what's going on? And then, yeah, it comes out. I'm getting a divorce, my wife left me. I'm having a hard time, you know, they're people too. But it's that hard line of protecting both sides, I think on the job as much as you can. With ultimately the client being the priority, obviously.

[B]

Well, and it goes back to that story I told in the beginning about having hired the contractor, you know, the mill worker, to make this furniture. And he got into some financial trouble himself. You know, I thought by advancing the money, we were going to solve some of those problems. And he still couldn't finish the job. And it was someone who was very trustworthy up until that point. And then you have to cut bait and how heartbreaking. You have to solve the problem. Yep.

[A]

We'll wrap up with some pennons for them. I feel like the designer did a great job. I think maybe a bottle of champagne and a bubble bath and just like a relaxing Friday night or weekend, even, like whatever your hobbies are, get out and do some hobbies. Try to sort of just like step away from this. I would say. I also think, yeah, maybe hiring a site superintendent could be a worthy investment. That might also make sense. And it sounds like the painter may need some rehab ultimately.

[B]

But you can also make sure that there's rules for the job site. A lot of job sites like smoking, no drinking, you know, things posted rules would help set those. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yep. That's very smart because you have to

[B]

be able to hold people accountable. And if they don't have any guidelines, they. They're like, well, I didn't know.

[A]

No one told me I couldn't drink on the job. It's like, well, obviously. But if there's a sign, it makes it much easier to enforce. You're right. That's a great point. Great point. Great point. Remember when I said Designer Receiving wasn't a sponsor and I just genuinely wanted to share how wonderful they are? That was true. But this episode is now officially sponsored by Designer Receiving. They work exclusively with interior designers to handle everything from receiving an inventory to storage and installation. But what truly sets them apart is how much they care and go out of their way to make sure every project goes smoothly. They're organized, tech forward and people focused, building genuine relationships with the designers they work with. If you want a partner who truly has your back, Designer Receiving is it. Check them [e-mail]. Okay, couple questions for you. You've lived in a modern high rise in San Francisco, on a farm in northern Michigan, and in Palm Springs. These are all such different environments and places with such different cult. How has each of those settings influenced your design style throughout your career? And do you see their individual influences in your style today?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. The high rise I live in in downtown San Francisco is very modern. I'm on the 25th floor of like a 60 story building. And so the kind of aesthetic choices there. In fact, I've done my apartment very dark. Like all the rooms are dark. My study is black. I have black doors, dark floors. And it's a very kind of urban thing. Amazing views out the window. And there's a lot of natural light. Cause it's floor to ceiling windows. So I can do dark walls and light and have the light come from the windows. So it's a very different kind of thing. When I had my farm in Michigan, I had to respect kind of the vernacular of a farmhouse. I was in the middle of 160 acres. It was a house from 1922. And so there were different design choices. You know, there was a beadboard paneling board and batten, different kinds of choices of stone, things like that. And now in Palm Springs, which is really famous for its mid century modern aesthetic, I have a contemporary condo there. And the furnishing tends toward a little bit mid century, but not cliche. I have like chairs from descend from the 1970s. I have a June Ho sofa mixed with that, which is more contemporary. So it's kind of fun. I have some Adrien Piersol chairs at my dining table from American Craft Furniture. So it's things that kind of fit in that setting, you know, much lighter. Everything's much lighter there. There's so much sun. It's a happy place in that regard. So I go from the dark urban to the bright desert. Right?

[A]

Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's kind of the best of both worlds. Okay. You have had a long history with the Wiseman Group. How has the firm evolved during your time?

[B]

Yeah, so it's evolved quite a bit. You know, we've grown. We've been bigger before, We've been smaller before. We're probably the largest now at about 58 employees.

[A]

Wow, that's a lot.

[B]

We've gone through, you know, financial downturns, for example, and yet our work has been consistent. The design integrity is there. The quality and craftsmanship has been there throughout. But most of the evolution has occurred with bringing in new people, training them, mentoring them, and being open to what they bring to the table. I have several designers that are extremely talented. They're great at sourcing, they're great at bringing things to the table that I might not even think of. You know, I do a lot of editing, collaborating, you know, give direction. Oh, try this, try that. Go look at this source from historic. But then they are out there also looking at new things. You know, and I'm always trying to find the new stuff, but I'm so busy on the day to day with the client work and the design stuff that I don't always get to do that. So it's evolved in terms of where the design ideas come from. I remember when I first started, we were like the phrase was silent and supportive. You know, you went to meetings, you took.

[A]

That was when I started in the industry too. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. But now everybody has a chance to have a voice we want to hear from our designers. Even if it's a bad idea, we'll save that for another project, you know, because there really isn't a bad idea.

[A]

You never know. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And every design problem has a different solution. We've also evolved because we're now more fully transparent with all employees about financials and about client relationships and about projects. So at every level now people have an understanding of what their commitment is and where it comes from and how we operate. And then we also try to be more fluid with staffing and letting people work on different projects. You're not just stuck with one design director. You can move a little bit more around in the firm. We've done things like that. So I think our work has gotten better because information comes from more sources.

[A]

Yep. I think that's exactly right. It's how I feel when we hire on new talent. They just have something so fresh about them. I want to go back to what you said about how you guys have changed the way that you give your employees information. You share now more about the financials, the client, that sort of ins and outs. I do that too, sometimes potentially too much. Like, I feel like I give my employees almost as much information as I have about everything about the project. Because to me, when I was a junior designer, I wanted every morsel of info they had so I could do my job to the best of my ability. Why do you think we've made that shift in the industry and why do you think it's working like it is?

[B]

I'm not exactly sure why we made this shift because I think a lot of firms still don't do it. You know, I think they do.

[A]

I think you're right about that. Yep.

[B]

But I think we're doing it. I think it has a lot to do with employee satisfaction and it also has a lot to do with employee buy in and commitment. If they know, if they know more about how the firm operates and what's going on, they can feel better about the salary, they can feel better about the Hours. They can feel better about the work. They know what they're working toward. And we've done a lot of work on what's our mission statement, what are our values, our core values, what kind of environment do we want? Because like I mentioned earlier, Paul Wiseman has set this tone. But the firm has to live on and it's more people and be broader and there's young people coming to the firm. Have never been in an environment like this before. And not everybody has the day to day access to the key stakeholders all the time.

[A]

Yep. Amazing. Fabulous. You love to travel for work and inspiration. Where have you recently found inspiration? Anywhere unexpected.

[B]

Okay, so I literally just last week came back from Singapore, Bangkok and Cambodia.

[A]

Oh my gosh. How was that?

[B]

Her home has a private residence in Singapore. I'm not working on it, but it was really fun to see these three countries because they're vastly different economically. Singapore is wealthy, it discourages automobiles. It doesn't have a lot of pollution. It's clean, it's beautiful. And then you go to Bangkok and it's got the chaos and the energy and all of that of an urban city, you know, that has its own struggles. And then you go to Cambodia and we were in Siem Reap and it's just quiet, you know. It was influenced by the French. It was a colony. There's wide streets, not a lot of high rises, just really wonderful. So constantly inspired by where I travel. When I was in the south of France, I stayed at the American hotel in Monte Carlo. And their lobby had this beautiful gilded kind of paint kind of thing going on. And I ended up adapting that for a project, for a client's dining room. When I was in Berlin, I saw a sofa, a piece from like the 40s, and I was able to adapt some of the design detail for that for a project. It goes on and on. I mean, you know, we're always influenced by where we go and what we do. So travel is really important. It's also important because we have an opportunity. We work with clients who travel and sometimes you feel you have that opportunity to be able to dialogue with them. I had a client, yes. Her husband was going to Berlin, didn't know where to stay. I recommended the hotel I was at and she's like, do you think my husband would like that hotel? You know, and it's like, yeah, I think he'll like it.

[A]

He'll like it. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right about that. Also, just from like a psychological perspective, my clients and I certainly bond over hotels and restaurants and travel in general. If my clients can say, have you seen in Paris? Have you seen this thing? And I can say, yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Let's apply it here. That is the difference between making the sale or not. So that's how I write off all my Paris strips, is what I'm saying. No, I'm kidding. But like, it really does make. I find myself creating better rooms when I have just been traveling, no matter what. Whether I have, you know, whether I know that consciously in that moment or not, it's certainly there's just a different type of, of inspiration you get that you can't, you can't substitute with magazines, books, photos, anything. It just doesn't cut it like, being like in the environment.

[B]

Well, Brenda Mickle, my colleague, and I were traveling and we visited the Jim Thompson silk farm in Bangkok.

[A]

Wow. Was that incredible?

[B]

And how silk is made from literally larva to the finished product.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And we also visited Jim Thompson's home in Bangkok, which is a stunning example of beautiful design. Incredibly inspiring. You know, the way he placed things and did things. And he was repurposing old homes and pulled them together to make one property out of it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that's just one example. When you travel and you get to see architecture in situ, you can look at every book about architecture you want. But when you see a Frank Gehry building and then later work with Frank Gehry on a project that we just did and have it published in Architectural Digest, you know, seeing how Frank works in his building is very inspirational.

[A]

I'm sure that is. Wow.

[B]

And we're inspired by his work for the design, so it's really cool.

[A]

Wow. That is incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Okay, well, I have had so much fun with you. This has been fabulous. You are a well of information and I feel like, like I've learned a lot from you. Our tagline for Caroline Turner Interiors is interiors that make you feel. So what is something that's made you feel recently? It doesn't have to be attached to interiors, but it can be.

[B]

You know, while I was in Cambodia, we went to the temples, like Angkor Wat, and we did a half day tour. And then the next morning, one of the guys in the group said, hey, anybody want to go for Sunrise at Angkor Wat? And we went to Sunrise in Angkor Wat. And it's just, I get a little foot clump just telling you about it because you're there and there's these ancient buildings and the forms are so Beautiful. And the towers and the turrets, and there's the sun coming up. And it's this beautiful relationship between time, the passage of time, history, and, you know, these temples were made for meditation and for just being present and understanding yourself. And we did a blessing with the monks at one of the temples. I have my bracelet here still on.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Just really incredible. So I think that's probably one of the kind of things. Things. A really special moment.

[A]

That's a perfect answer as far as I'm concerned. And I'm adding this trip that you just did to the top of my list. It sounds incredible. I'll be. We'll. We'll have to email for recommendations because it sounds awesome.

[B]

We went as part of a group, the Leaders of Design Council, and you can check out their Instagram. It's really amazing. And they set up so many amazing experiences for us. So that's something I encourage all of your listeners to look into that leaders have designed us. It's an amazing organization, and it's great for us to have colleagues to engage with. And then we go to these amazing places and learn about all kinds of things.

[A]

Meditation, that's a great tip.

[B]

Mindfulness, we learned about in Tokyo. We went to Copenhagen. And you learned about how things are handmade. We went to Morocco. And you learned how things are made from just simple materials. So it's really incredible.

[A]

Wow. I'm gonna look them up as soon as we get off the pod because that sounds incredible and exactly what I've been looking for. Okay, you're a very busy man, but before I let you go, where can we find you? Social website, Instagram, all that.

[B]

Yeah. So we're the Wiseman Group, spelled W, I, S, C, M, A N, G, R, O U, P. And we're on instagram @the wisemangroup. That's probably the best place to look for us. But if you go to the web, you can look at us under wisemangroup.com and you'll see a portfolio of all of our work. Our Instagram pretty much shows off just projects and details and moments. And then our website shows you. You can go in depth in different locations that we've worked and the different kind of jobs we've done, from wine caves to airplanes, to boats to residences. We've done some commercial work, so that's kind of fun. You get to see, really the breadth of what we do. And you can also look at the website for Paul Wiseman. Paul Vincent Wiseman. His Instagram. I mean, if you go to his Instagram, you get a whole sense of how he brings his individual perspective on his lifestyle into the kind of work that we do.

[A]

Amazing. Everybody check that out. And thank you so much for being on. We have had the best time with you. Thank you.

[B]

So fun. Thank you.

[A]

And until next week, peace be with you.

[B]

Bye.