I confess... I stole my boss's clients

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Confessions of an Interior Designer"
Episode Title: "I Confess... I Stole My Boss's Clients"
Release Date: December 18, 2024

---

Introduction

In this candid and revealing episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner delves into the murky waters of professional ethics within the luxury interior design industry. Joined by Gracie Miller, a talented interior designer from Caroline Turner Interiors, and co-host Morgan, the trio navigates the complexities of workplace dynamics, client relationships, and the fine line between ambition and integrity. The episode centers around the provocative confession of stealing clients from a former employer, exploring the motivations, repercussions, and moral dilemmas associated with such actions.

---

Guests and Their Journeys

00:04 – 02:08
Caroline introduces Gracie Miller, highlighting their four-year journey together at Caroline Turner Interiors. Gracie shares her path to Chicago, her passion for residential design, and the pivotal moments that led her to join Caroline's fledgling business just before the COVID-19 pandemic.

Notable Quote:
Gracie Miller (02:08): "I fell in love with Chicago during my internship with Auburn's design program, knowing this is where I wanted to build my career."

---

Building Trust and Company Growth

02:08 – 12:53
The conversation shifts to the growth of Caroline Turner Interiors from a small operation operating out of Caroline's home to a thriving design firm. Gracie emphasizes the importance of creative freedom, ownership of projects, and a collaborative environment that fosters personal and professional growth. Morgan adds insights into the benefits of working in a small team versus a large corporate firm, highlighting the autonomy and broad skill development that comes with it.

Notable Quotes:
Caroline Turner (09:04): "Watching Gracie grow has been incredible; she's become indispensable to our team."
Gracie Miller (12:33): "The freedom to make mistakes and learn from them has been invaluable."

---

Navigating Freelancing and Client Relationships

15:52 – 26:09
A significant portion of the episode discusses the controversial topic of freelancing while employed. Caroline explains her policy of allowing team members to take on freelance jobs, fostering an environment of trust and continuous learning. Gracie shares her experiences balancing freelance projects with her responsibilities at Caroline Turner Interiors, noting both the challenges and the benefits, such as discovering new contractors and expanding the firm's network.

Notable Quote:
Gracie Miller (16:05): "Freelancing has pushed me out of my comfort zone, teaching me to find and vet contractors on my own."

---

Dealing with Difficult Clients and Ethical Boundaries

26:38 – 37:23
The core confession of the episode unfolds as Caroline recounts her experience of stealing clients from an insufferable boss at a previous high-end design firm. She describes how she began taking on side projects from clients frustrated with her boss's incompetence, ultimately building her own client base while working under her former employer. Gracie and Morgan engage in a thoughtful discussion about the ethical implications, legal boundaries, and personal repercussions of such actions.

Notable Quotes:
Caroline Turner (30:01): "When clients start bypassing an incompetent boss to work directly with you, it's a red flag signaling deeper issues."
Morgan (43:10): "Stealing clients feels like playing with fire; it destroys trust on all sides."

---

Legal and Moral Considerations

37:23 – 52:42
The trio delves deeper into the legalities and moral aspects of client poaching. They discuss scenarios where designers might feel compelled to take clients from a boss who fails to manage them properly and the potential fallout from such actions. Caroline reflects on the importance of maintaining integrity and the long-term impacts on one's professional reputation.

Notable Quotes:
Caroline Turner (42:32): "Taking clients from your boss without consent not only risks legal trouble but also damages your reputation permanently."
Gracie Miller (44:43): "Leaving without addressing the issues can leave both you and the clients in a precarious position."

---

Advice for Interns and New Designers

53:20 – 71:38
Transitioning from the confession, the episode offers valuable advice for interns and new graduates entering the interior design field. Topics include the importance of voice and initiative, whether interning at a prestigious firm is necessary for success, and strategies to become indispensable within a team. Gracie and Morgan emphasize practical tips such as effective note-taking, proactive communication, and continuous learning.

Notable Quotes:
Caroline Turner (58:18): "Experience is experience, whether it's gained at a small firm or a prestigious one. What's crucial is what you take away from it."
Gracie Miller (65:06): "Bringing new ideas and techniques, like introducing Canva for presentations, makes you an invaluable asset."

---

Final Reflections and Penances

71:38 – 78:00
In a lighthearted yet introspective conclusion, the hosts discuss the concept of penance for unethical professional behavior. They humorously suggest that designers who steal clients should experience the same repercussion they inflicted, fostering empathy and understanding. The episode wraps up with final thoughts on maintaining ethical standards, the importance of trust within a team, and strategies to navigate the complex landscape of high-end interior design.

Notable Quote:
Caroline Turner (75:30): "If you ever find yourself having taken clients from someone else, let it be a lesson in empathy and integrity. Use that experience to build a better, more ethical practice."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer provides an unfiltered look into the ethical challenges and personal dilemmas faced by interior designers in high-stakes environments. Through Caroline Turner, Gracie Miller, and Morgan's engaging dialogue, listeners gain invaluable insights into building trust, navigating professional boundaries, and the importance of maintaining integrity in the competitive world of luxury interior design. The episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a guide for aspiring designers, emphasizing that success should never come at the cost of one's principles.

---

Where to Listen:
Stream this episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Connect with Caroline Turner Interiors:

• Instagram: @confessionsofid
• TikTok: @carolineturnerinteriors
• Facebook Group: Confessions of ID
• Submit a Confession: Caroline Turner's Website

---

This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable moments. For the full experience and nuanced conversations, listeners are encouraged to tune into the episode directly.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Confession. Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. Today I'm joined by the incredibly talented Gracie Miller, a Chicago based interior designer who I'm fortunate enough to have on my team at Caroline Turner Interiors. Gracie and I have been through it all over the past four years, from the beginning of launching my business, surviving moments when clients nearly drove us to the edge, navigating big design mishaps and celebrating our biggest wins. I'm so excited to have her on today to share her perspective and some behind the scenes stories. Gracie, thank you so much for being on. I'm so excited.

[Gracie Miller]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[Caroline Turner]

This is going to be fun. People will really get a peek behind the curtain. I feel like definitely. I feel like so many people have said that we have started to share a brain. No, like, same thoughts at the same time.

[Gracie Miller]

Literally, like finish each other's sentences. Like share. Sometimes I'll text you and like you'll.

[Caroline Turner]

Be like, I was literally just happens with Morgan too. We've like started. We've all started to mortgage outfits too.

[Gracie Miller]

Like, we literally are crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

We'll start outfit.

[Caroline Turner]

We'll start matching accidentally. Yeah. I require everyone to turn into me. When you work for literally, honestly, twist my arm.

[Morgan]

I'll do it. I mean, yeah, I have to turn into someone who has good taste.

[Caroline Turner]

I think you have to say that because I pay you, so I think you guys have to say that.

[Morgan]

No, but I said you guys did turn me into like a Gilmore Girls girl and a Taylor Swift, which I'm so proud of.

[Caroline Turner]

Those badge of honor I wear prior.

[Morgan]

To this, I would be like, that is not me. I would never wear it.

[Caroline Turner]

Every single person except for Grace, who has ever worked for me, hated Taylor Swift. Now a Swifty.

[Morgan]

That's how I am.

[Caroline Turner]

Sam is the old, like a bigger Swiftie than I am. Yeah, it's crazy. I would love it.

[Morgan]

It's not. She's not my vibe. Gilmore Girls. I think that show sucked, you guys.

[Gracie Miller]

And now I'm seeing it for like the 12th time right now.

[Morgan]

It's my comfort. Gilmore Girls time.

[Gracie Miller]

Lunch.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, before we get into all of that, I wanted to ask Gracie, how did you get here?

[Gracie Miller]

Well, I have an interesting way that I got here because. Okay, so I went to Auburn which is also your alma mater. And so I was looking for an internship and actually came up to Chicago with the design program at Auburn. And we came to Chicago, it was like 15 of us, and did all these tours, went to a couple firms, and I just fell in love with the city. I was like, this is my place. Like, I have to live here. Like, I want to design here. And so went back to school right before COVID happened. And my friend who I went to high school with but also was in design school with, she had heard about Caroline, and so she told me she just started her business. Like, it's kind of perfect. And so Covid happened, so wasn't able to come out.

[Caroline Turner]

There was no business.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, there was no business.

[Morgan]

There was nothing.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like, I can't pay you. You can't come, because I don't have anything for you.

[Gracie Miller]

And so that was my junior year of college. And so then that summer going into my senior year, I came up because I was like, I have to work for this girl. Like, I love her stuff. That was me. But, like, no, literally, I was like, I have to work here. This is my dream job. And so we had, like, kind of stayed in contact a little bit. And like, you had told me, let's wait till next summer. Let's reassess. And so I came up and we had lunch together and just kind of met because I was like, I gotta get my shoe in the door. I've got to meet her and put a face with it. And so we stayed in touch after. And then I ended up coming in, like, February of my senior year and worked remote until I graduated, and then came up here and it was my first real internship. I had had one previously for a commercial company, and it was a lot smaller scale and a lot different. But this, like, I was like, I came here with the intention of, like, I'm going to intern and I'm going to get a job here. And I've been here ever since.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And she's never leaving.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, never.

[Caroline Turner]

She's not allowed to leave. She's handcuffed. You just can't see.

[Morgan]

Actually, this is why it's a podcast and it's the audio.

[Caroline Turner]

Because will not be on video today because she is handcuffed to the here against my will. No, But I feel like it's really. You took a chance on me when I was, like, still very new and there wasn't a ton of work, and I really couldn't pay anyone very much.

[Gracie Miller]

And I think in school because, like, I said I had a commercial internship and I mean I was minnow in a big pond. It was very corporate and so there was a design team and then in the cubicle next to it it was the accounting team and things like that. And so during my internship they literally gave me passport projects and were like, put this in cad, tell us what you would do. It was just not at all what I wanted to do.

[Caroline Turner]

Work for no reason, literally.

[Gracie Miller]

And so when I was in school I had this residential teacher that we just really clicked and she just made me fall in love with residential. And I just knew then I was like, I really. Because with the hopes of potentially maybe doing my own thing in the future. But I was like, I really want to start at a small company because I want to be able to help build the company up. I want to be there from the beginning. And I mean that gives you a lot more ability to learn because like you're having to wear so many hats. And so I like knew going into it I was like, I want to like she's just now starting. This is the perfect time to get in. Like I can like be such a part of this business. So that was important to me.

[Caroline Turner]

And you are.

[Gracie Miller]

Thank you.

[Morgan]

I think it's so smart though that.

[Caroline Turner]

You even had the foresight to 1000%.

[Morgan]

Like I'm thinking about me when I was just graduating college too. Like I was like, I will just need a frickin job.

[Caroline Turner]

Someone just pay me, I'll do whatever.

[Morgan]

Yeah. And at the time, right, it's like you think that at a high level, like oh, you want to work for this big firm and it's all flashy and all of your friends are working for this big company. But I think you chose obviously the better choice. And I'm unbiasedly saying that too, but like that you even could see the opportunity that not a lot of people see. It's so smart.

[Gracie Miller]

Truly what I think is interesting because in school too, especially at our program, they ingrain it in your head that you're supposed to work at an 80 top 100 company and like you should be working at, at these big companies.

[Caroline Turner]

Or Gensler or Gensler or something like that, architecture firms.

[Gracie Miller]

I would say like we have a pretty residential based 50 50. I would say between hospitality, commercial, residential and so most people in my class, they were not going for the smaller businesses. They wanted to go for the Kelly Werslers and the bigger names, which is fine. But I just knew my senior year that I was like, I have to have A job where I'm happy and I'm not miserable every day. And, like, of course I would love to, you know, come out making five figures, like, right out of college. Like, who wouldn't? But one day, I don't know. It's like, you have to know that I feel like, you know, that going into it, like, what you're setting yourself up for and what to expect. And I think I was lucky in that sense that I had.

[Caroline Turner]

Wait, I want to be clear. I do pay you five figures. I'm not paying you, wait, $6,000 a month. Everyone's gonna be like, she's literally hitting her ass, like, in her dungeon. And not.

[Gracie Miller]

Okay, six figures.

[Caroline Turner]

Sorry, she's literally Locke.

[Gracie Miller]

And, yeah, Caroline actually pays me $30,000 a year.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, but what's so funny, too, is.

[Morgan]

I was like, yes, totally. Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

Let me make it clear. Six figures, everyone.

[Morgan]

Six figures.

[Gracie Miller]

I get paid five figures. Like, please don't call anyone on us. I swear to God, the labor board, my enemies, audit. Do not come by.

[Morgan]

They're trying to take you down.

[Caroline Turner]

No, I'm sorry. It took me, like, I literally was sitting there for about 32nd. Like, I'm going back to my.

[Morgan]

Wait, do I care? Yeah, I'm like, what is. See, this is why we're all, like. We don't have, like, accountings or math degrees.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, no, thank goodness for Sam, who handles that business, because it's crazy. I would run it into the ground. Literally. Yeah. I call her, like, how much money can I spend?

[Gracie Miller]

Literally, I don't even know.

[Caroline Turner]

You gotta have someone who's like, no, Caroline, No. Someone has to tell me. No, thank God. It's the person who's in charge of money.

[Morgan]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

You know, okay, well, thanks for telling us that. And I think it could be fun to talk a little bit about just, like, working together in general, what we've learned, what you like, what you don't like. Also, I do have to acknowledge, like, I'm your boss, so I realize you can't be like, I hate you and I hate this job.

[Gracie Miller]

Like, I'll talk shit.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like we've been together for long enough to, like, what are you.

[Gracie Miller]

Gonna do, fire me?

[Morgan]

Yeah. Literally, Naci's like, try me, bitch.

[Gracie Miller]

Try me.

[Caroline Turner]

And she knows I won't. Yeah, she's right.

[Morgan]

She's like, me and my $9,000 salary.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly.

[Morgan]

We're out of here.

[Gracie Miller]

Yes, I am an id.

[Caroline Turner]

But I feel like, you know, you took a chance on coming into this business when, like, I literally knew nothing And I always think about how it's probably so different from how I was a boss when you first came on.

[Gracie Miller]

Oh, for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

To now. And, like, you've been here through, like, the most insane growth. And I feel like if you want to talk a little bit about it and just, like, your experience and why you're still here and. Yeah. Just promise on air, hand on the Bible, that you're never leaving. And so once you do that, we can wrap this up.

[Gracie Miller]

Okay.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Hand on the Bible.

[Gracie Miller]

Hand on the phone. I mean, let's start by when I started working with you, we were working out of your house.

[Morgan]

House.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

No, that's crazy.

[Gracie Miller]

And now I'm on a podcast with you.

[Caroline Turner]

That's insane.

[Gracie Miller]

Let's take a moment and appreciate that.

[Caroline Turner]

You're so right.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, yeah, like you said, we were kind of taking a chance on each other because I was fresh out of school. You were just starting your business. It was very fun starting out like that.

[Caroline Turner]

It was chaotic, but.

[Gracie Miller]

It was chaotic. But it was fun. Cause we were kind of just shooting the shit and seeing what sticks and figuring it all out. And I think it was just really cool to experience that, because where we are now is crazy. Like, our projects are so much bigger. Like, I mean, we have another employee. Like, we've just grown so much as a company. It's so cool to, like, be able to say, like, I literally worked in her living room on her sofa.

[Caroline Turner]

You absolutely did.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, it's interesting to me, too, because I feel like I can recognize their growth more than I can recognize my growth. And so I feel like getting to watch you and everybody else really, like, mature and develop and learn how to be a boss in your own right and how to talk on the phone.

[Gracie Miller]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

So that was hard for me. Let me breakfast.

[Gracie Miller]

I do not like talking on the phone. Okay.

[Morgan]

I never really.

[Gracie Miller]

And so everyone likes to give me shit because I will literally send a million emails before I will make a phone call.

[Caroline Turner]

She would go to the moon before she has to. Literally, Literally.

[Gracie Miller]

I don't know. I just don't like it. I've gotten better. I've gotten better because. Because with that being said, she gives us the freedom to grow. I mean, especially in the beginning, I was on every meeting with Carol, and I was helping with presentations, I was helping with material schemes, I was helping with cad.

[Caroline Turner]

Everything.

[Gracie Miller]

Everything. So I was getting to play a part in every single part of the process, which I feel like a lot of people, especially coming out of school, don't have that opportunity to do. Because they do go to these bigger companies, and, yeah, maybe they get to head a project, but they're not getting to make selections themselves. They're having to go off guidance from their designer or whatever. And so, yeah, I think seeing you mature, like, as a boss, like, which feels so weird. Just.

[Caroline Turner]

It does feel weird today watching you grow up.

[Gracie Miller]

I don't know, just seeing, like, the way we handle things.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, we did grow up together.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, literally.

[Caroline Turner]

We've also. Your 20s.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, so much has happened.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, so much personally, so much professionally. And I feel like you being there from the beginning is so special to me because it does feel like. I mean, in the beginning, I was like, what do you think we should do? Literally nothing. We were just trying to figure it out, flying by the seat of our pants. And so now to be like, okay, like, you're in charge of these projects, and you get to do this, and you take the meeting and you handle this. Like, it makes me so happy as a boss that I get to, like, you guys get to do that. And you're here long enough to have that growth. Because I feel like for so long, this industry can be a revolving door.

[Gracie Miller]

It really can. And I think, like, none of us have left. Like, you do give us the freedom to make our own choices. We have say, and of course, we're working under you always, but, like, it's a very collaborative. It's very. A lot of creative freedom, I would say. And I feel like that's. You don't get that a lot at other places. And so I am very grateful for that because, I mean, like, you said, we grew together. And so, like, you really did. You allowed me to make mistakes. And, like, I'm not scared to make a mistake because, like, it's not like Caroline's gonna come shun me or fire me or something like that.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, like, we talk through it, we.

[Gracie Miller]

Work through it, because, like, we're all making mistakes. Like, we're all doing this together. And that's another thing that I like about a small company. Like, everyone knows what's going. Everyone's on. I mean, mostly on the same page.

[Caroline Turner]

Depending on the day.

[Gracie Miller]

But, no, I just feel like, yeah, I'm very grateful for that because we've just grown so much.

[Caroline Turner]

We really have. I feel like the reason why I have specific rules and I handle things a certain way with you guys is because I was an assistant so recently to when I started my firm. Like, I left being a design assistant or a junior designer to start My firm, I never got to, like, senior designer.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

So I feel like me only being like a year, less than a year out of that career, I was really sympathetic to what their jobs were. And also really, really, really, really knew what I did not like about my job at other places. And how can I make this tenable for them? How can I make this a job that they want to do? Because I feel like inherently, design assistant can be like a paper pushing, kind of bullshit job. I mean, it has to be done. You need people like that to keep the wheels going. But I feel like I tried so hard to make sure you guys had ownership, so it wasn't just like, I need you to do xyz. And we've recently, I mean, I feel like, gotten even more to that level.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. The fact that you give us ownership, like, that is not very common in this industry. I don't think of, you know, being at a company and the boss giving us the type of ownership that we get. Like, of course, everything at the end of the day goes through you and signs off by you. But, like, it gives us such a purpose rather than being like, hey, here's. You know, these fabrics do a scheme with it. You know, like, we get to play a part in it, and it just makes it so much more fun in the process. When you're working on these projects for so long and you get to have a part in it. Like when I'm working on renderings, and then I get to see it come to life in real person and be like, okay, like, I actually did that.

[Morgan]

Yeah, you did.

[Caroline Turner]

That's crazy.

[Gracie Miller]

And so, like. Yeah, like, I agree. The ownership and, like, the freedom and flexibility that you give is like. I just know. I'm very grateful for it.

[Caroline Turner]

Thanks. I do think, yeah, there's gotta be, like, some perks to working for someone who can't pay you as much. And that is one of them.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

We were talking earlier about making the decision between a big firm and a small firm and how you do that. And I feel like something that we talk a lot about is work, life, balance, and not that we always have it. I feel like I said this on another episode. It's kind of like seasons of life. Like, sometimes we're so busy, and then in the summer, we'll have summer Fridays. We'll sometimes take a Monday. Like, we'll just. We try to sort of take advantage of it when we can. Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

When those slow periods are. We try to.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like that's they're learning how to be entrepreneurs through that. Because we're sort of all, it's a startup, essentially. We're all having to learn and ride those waves of like, more work, less work, how do we handle it? And I mean, at the end of the day, the paychecks come from me, but you guys are still dealing with the day to day of that, which I feel like if you ever do wanna go start your firm, it's such a good education.

[Gracie Miller]

I don't know about that, but I've seen enough, I've tried enough. I don't know if I can do that well.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like the controversial thing that people always ask us about is that I let you guys take freelance jobs.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, you do.

[Caroline Turner]

Which, let's just talk about that a little bit.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, that's a hot topic. Cause a lot of places do not. That is frowned upon.

[Caroline Turner]

It was certainly frowned upon when I did it.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Gracie Miller]

We'll touch on that later.

[Caroline Turner]

But I, I feel like I. First of all, I've never felt like there's a scarcity around this. I feel like when you feel there's like a scarcity in jobs or creativity or any of that, you then don't let the people who work for you actually do their job. There is plenty to go around. And frankly, we say no to a lot of work, which is a very privileged place to be. But there are some super nice people who can't pay for $100,000 in billable hours, but can pay for $20,000 in billable hours. And so if one person from our team wants to handle that separately, I mean, I'll even like send you guys, hey, do you want to take this job or what?

[Gracie Miller]

Little consultations here and there, like things like that.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, also because you're going out and you're finding new things and you're learning and I mean, you're bringing that knowledge back to us. You're not having to hide it.

[Gracie Miller]

You came to us openly and we're like, that's okay if you want to do that. So I think the fact that we're not having to go behind your back or like hide, which obviously I would never do first. But like the fact that, you know, I can be open about, like, it's helpful for me because, you know, like you were saying, like I am freelancing a little bit on the side. It's, you know, depending on the day, I like it. Depending on the day I want to Kill myself. But I don't know if you can say that on a podcast, but you can.

[Caroline Turner]

It's fun.

[Morgan]

It's a joke, everyone.

[Gracie Miller]

It's a joke.

[Caroline Turner]

It's a joke.

[Gracie Miller]

Sorry if that offends anyone, but the thing with freelancing while you're at a company is that. That you're actually having to do it all by yourself. Because I can't use our subs because they're for our project. Right. So there's not a lot of overlap that can happen. And so that has, like, really pushed me out of my comfort zone because I've had to find a contractor. I've had to find a tile installer or a painter or something like that. But it's also. It's been kind of beneficial for us because I find these other people that we can then bring on, you know, as our subscribers. But, you know, at the end of the day, like, working at a firm and then also taking on. I don't necessarily recommend it because we already don't have any time.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, you'll burn yourself out.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, I'm learning that very fast. I took on one project that. I mean, I've taken on some smaller, you know, just, like, furniture projects. I'm just sucked dry. Like, I. You know, it's hard because.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's funny for me not to cut you off, but it's funny for me. Cause I'll have to make these, like, really hard phone calls. And the girls are always, like, just glad that's not literally. Now it's like, it is you.

[Gracie Miller]

It is me. You gotta figure it out. It's not. But. And I was, like, saying earlier, I was like, I can't come crying to Caroline to fix any of my problems.

[Morgan]

But, like, she would fix it, though.

[Gracie Miller]

Too, which is crazy. She really would.

[Morgan]

She'd be like, all right, fine. I'll call, though.

[Gracie Miller]

No, literally, I've already come to her so many times and be like, I need you to talk me through this conversation. Cause I can't do it. I'm gonna explode.

[Morgan]

But, like, it makes you a better designer at the end of the day, too, because you're dealing with different. Like, it's definitely reciprocal. And that comes back and forth, too, in that you have, like, the trust, which I think is what you guys were talking about a lot, that you guys can both. You know, you can do your thing. You can do your thing. You can go pick things. And Caroline's not having to, like, micromanage everything and vice versa. And then you feel empowered, and you want to do better work. Right. It works both ways when you do that, which is so powerful and special about being in certain situations that you just will not have in a big.

[Gracie Miller]

And I do think it gives me, like, a bigger sense of confidence, too, doing it on my own, seeing that I can actually do it. Because even though Caroline gives me the freedom to do it, I mean, you're my boss, so there's always that little part of you that's like, I don't want to do the wrong thing. I want her to love it. And doing it on my own and having to make these decisions on my own and have no one else to back me.

[Morgan]

You're, like, the expert to be like, Gracie, what do you think?

[Gracie Miller]

Exactly. And so that has given me a stronger sense of confidence coming back to work. And when we're material scheming, I'm not afraid to pull out things that I would have thought to pull out, but, you know, maybe worry the client or her. Like, she wouldn't like it. And a lot of times I pull stuff out, and she's like, oh, I really like that. And I'm like, okay, so I don't suck.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely not. I mean, I feel like it's fun for me to see them grow and, like, use what they've learned here. And, I mean, I think there's always a line. I just think you guys are, like, really respectful about it and generous.

[Morgan]

A trust. That's it. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And what it is is that I.

[Morgan]

Trust them and they trust you, that you make the right decisions, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, right. And I think that trust, I feel like, is, like, the number one thing that our needs to have, like, between all of us in order to all know we're, like, moving forward towards a common goal.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I think we've done a really good job of, like, cultivating that. There's nothing that's off limits. I feel like half the time, you guys know exactly how much money is in our bank account. And that's the other thing. We, like, essentially, profit share, if there were any profit. No, I'm kidding. You know, it's for the first time.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, I am getting paid only 9,000.

[Caroline Turner]

But because they're, like, sharing in the downhill and the uphill, I have the ability to, like, you know, if we do better one year, like, make the bonuses bigger or, you know, whatever, because this business would not have happened without them for sure. So it feels so crucial. It's not like, I am the business. I make the world turn. And they're just, like, the people running around making things happen. It's so.

[Morgan]

And in corporate, that does not work like that. They say they'll preach certain things as someone who's been and lived in that world. Right. And you don't necessarily have the trust or like psychological safety that you have within this kind of environment.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, everyone tells you like, HR is not for you, HR is for your company.

[Morgan]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And this is, you know, even to my little sister, like I've had to teach her, like, put in the hours and the effort and do your job and do it well, but then leave it. Right? Because you've seen, I've seen so many of my friends and you know, in myself, in situations too, within a corporate environment, it's not personal, but they will let you go because they care about profit. And of course you get different things when you're in a smaller company. Right? Like, yes, obviously at the end of the day we all want to make money, but there's that trust, there's that like companionship, there's a friendship. You can't do it without one another and vice versa. And that's really like. Because you're replaceable in corporate. We'll find another example.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, there's that job security you get here.

[Morgan]

It's like you guys are the same person. You can't have that without, you know, it's.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, there have been times where we don't have enough money coming in to cover it. And I don't take a salary so I can pay them. And that's not to be like, oh, I'm so great. That's to say corporate would fire your ass so fucking fast before they would ever. They wouldn't think twice, like lose profits to. For the benefit of you. And I know how much they've sacrificed and how much time and energy and attention they've put into this job. So it's like the least I can do is make sure they have some stability and are able to feel comfortable in that job, that they're not gonna wake up one day and be like, nevermind, we don't need you anymore.

[Morgan]

And I feel like even this, it's a little bit higher level of a conversation, but I think sometimes what we're talking about here and saying, I didn't take a salary, I started off in our living room. When you see someone from the outside, right, it feels a little gauche to talk about finances and what you've had to do because everyone lives in this beautiful, perfect, gorgeous house that they've built in interiors. And you think everything's so easy. And I know I've looked at people, and then you see really what goes on behind the scenes. And it's not like this. And not to say that it's completely different, but what we're talking about here is, I think a really good conversation for everyone is they can see the growth and evolution, and if they're there, too, you can say, like, I've also been there. People can commiserate with that a little bit, too. And it's not like you woke up one day and you worked, you know, at this amazing job, and you made all this money, and it's. Everything's perfect. Like social media always portrays. It shows the evolution that you've all been through and you've had just. You've been lucky enough to have the people to go through it and grow.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, yeah, it takes loyalty and, like, hard work.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

We. This did not happen overnight, for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Not at all. And now I'm like, hey, Grace, if I move to another country, do you want to be in charge?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

She's like, no, I.

[Morgan]

What?

[Caroline Turner]

No, I can't do that. You. Absolutely. But that's what I mean. I mean, I have that much trust and confidence in you that you would figure it out, because I did. I mean, I didn't know.

[Morgan]

Well, that's happening, too. No one knows what they're doing.

[Caroline Turner]

No. Yeah. And, like, if I figured it out, you certainly can. So, I mean, that's not to say I'm, like, moving to Amsterdam tomorrow, I don't think. But it's. It is very, like, helpful for me as the owner of a company to know that, like, I don't think that I could come to work every day and do my job correctly if I thought there was, like, the possibility. You guys were always thinking about leaving or we weren't happy. Like, I. Maybe to a fault, I put the employee happiness, like, in very, very high regard because I want you guys to, like, like your lives and not be miserable. And, I mean, I was crying in the bathroom every day at multiple jobs, and that was when I started the company. My ultimate goal was to never make someone cry in the bathroom.

[Morgan]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, if you're gonna cry, never make me cry. Please cry to me, and we can talk about it. But, like, don't feel like you have to hide tears, because that felt, like, so emblematic in front of you.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And vice versa.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, vice versa.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Plenty of tears among the two of us. Don't. But also laughter. We were literally crying.

[Gracie Miller]

Laughing earlier. Crying.

[Caroline Turner]

Laughing. So, you know, it happens. It happens. This is so fun for me.

[Gracie Miller]

I know.

[Caroline Turner]

This is so much fun, all of you guys. And so I want to keep going. But also I feel like people are probably like, can you guys shut the fuck up and get to the confession?

[Morgan]

Juicy.

[Caroline Turner]

Get you the juicy. And we are. I promise. Promise. Okay, but before we do, Gracie, what's advice you partake in my vice is.

[Gracie Miller]

Going home every day and pouring the fattest glass of wine. Like, I don't know what it is, but that just like 0 to 100, it makes my day so much better. I could have the shittiest day ever. I will go home. I mean, also partake. And you know, I'm gonna smoke a bowl like or four and then have my glass of wine and just like disassociate for like an hour and just let yourself just.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Not even be on another planet.

[Morgan]

I almost feel like it's like ritualistic too, right?

[Gracie Miller]

It like turns my brain off.

[Morgan]

Yes, exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

That's how I feel about my bathtub.

[Gracie Miller]

Same.

[Morgan]

I mean, same in my bathtub at.

[Caroline Turner]

The end of the day. I mean, like the world could have literally burned down around me and I'm fine.

[Gracie Miller]

I'm fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I'm in my bathtub and I'm good, actually.

[Morgan]

Yeah. No, it's like those little rituals. Like, even I don't like coffee, but in the morning I go and I'll like make a cup of coffee and I'll hold it and it gets you in the mindset. I think it's very similar to like going home, pouring a glass of wine and you're like, okay.

[Gracie Miller]

Like, the day's over.

[Caroline Turner]

The original of it all is so.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Lovely. I completely agree. Okay, I love that. Okay, I love that. Okay, I love that. Okay, I love that. Well, Gracie, are you ready to hear confession? Confession. Confession.

[Gracie Miller]

I'm so ready.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm so excited. Let's do this. Okay, here goes. I had this client who had a very specific vision for their home. Let's just call it Pinterest Overload meets Mid Century Mayhem. I'm going to steal that.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like that's what a lot of people are coming to us for. They wanted everything to be trendy, but they didn't want to listen to a single piece of advice I gave them. Every designer's like, yeah, my water boiling.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm talking neon colored accent walls. Every part of that description should never exist. Neon and accent wall. You can do that.

[Morgan]

Accent walls are crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

I can't. Plus young are we in 2010.

[Morgan]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

Is that like, an SAE rave or something? Like it? Feel it? No.

[Morgan]

I remember growing up looking at, like, a PB2 teen magazine with the accent walls with the bubbles all over it. And I made my parents, like, make my room like that. And, like, you could not tell me fucking shit. Like, I had an accent wall. Like, I don't talk to me like I have an accent wall in my bedroom. Yeah, I'm better than you bitches, and I know it.

[Caroline Turner]

Saying, meanwhile, my mom is like, your bedroom will be lilac, and you will have a quilt, and you can put your two posters in your closet with the doors closed. Which, by the way, I was like, this is a present at the time. And if I had children now, I'd be like, uh, uh, uh, put that away. No, no, no. So I totally get it, Mom. I know you're listening. It's fine. I love you. Okay.

[Gracie Miller]

Shout out, darling.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, shout out, Mom. Okay. Mismatched furniture that clashed horribly. And even a custom shag carpet in bright orange because they wanted it a retro vibe.

[Gracie Miller]

Okay. The shag carpet, one bright orange.

[Morgan]

That's crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, can I actually say that? My grandfather had this tiny little mountain house when we were growing up, and it had orange shag carpet in the basement. And the diseases. We could have gotten some crawling on that orange shag carpet. That was literally from the seventies.

[Gracie Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Morgan]

Originally, crawling wasn't orange.

[Gracie Miller]

It was like. It was.

[Caroline Turner]

And so I have a very strong image. I can really, really picture this.

[Morgan]

What it's kind of reminding me of is, I think when we talked about it on Robert's episode, too, where it's like, oh, I want a certain aesthetic where it's like, oh, I want retro. I'm going to go all 100% retro. Or I love horses. I'm going to have hay on the walls. Hgtv. Like, they're giving, like, too much into a theme. It's like you could have hints of retro. That's cool.

[Caroline Turner]

I think a through line versus a theme.

[Gracie Miller]

There's got to be some balance.

[Caroline Turner]

There got to be some balance. I mean, yikes. Okay. At first, I tried to push back gently and steer them towards something cohesive, but they shut me down every time. After weeks of back and forth and feeling totally defeated, I just gave up. I thought, fine, you want this disaster? You got it. So I designed this space exactly the way they wanted, against every fiber of my creative being. I didn't care anymore. I was just trying to finish the project and cash the Check. But here's. I know that's. Here's the kicker. When it was done, they loved it. They couldn't stop raving about how it was better than they ever imagined.

[Morgan]

It's exactly what they wanted, babe.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, we would never get that lucky.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Gracie Miller]

If we did something like that, that would never happen to us, Vic.

[Morgan]

I should have hated it. Why'd you make me do that?

[Gracie Miller]

No, literally. Literally.

[Caroline Turner]

Clients ask us all, say they want white sofas all the time. I can tell them until I'm blue in the face that you should not do a white sofa. But performance doesn't matter. It's still a white sofa.

[Gracie Miller]

It's still white.

[Caroline Turner]

And so sometimes they just have to learn.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And we've installed white sofas, and I've had clients look at me and say, why didn't you tell me, babe?

[Gracie Miller]

I tried.

[Caroline Turner]

Excuse me while I go walk into traffic.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, brba.

[Caroline Turner]

No worries, though. We'll definitely figure it out for you. Okay. Sorry. I'm, like, getting flashbacks. Meanwhile, I was praying that no one would ever find out I was the designer behind that monstrosity. To this day, I still leave it out of my portfolio. It's my secret shame. But, hey, the paycheck was nice.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, at the end of the day, get your check.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And if they were happy, it's not like she was sabotaging them. Like, if. It was like, I hated my clients, so I made their house ugly. She gave them what they wanted. She did what they wanted. I could never. Yeah, unfortunately.

[Morgan]

Would you be able to do that, though, if it was completely different?

[Caroline Turner]

No. I would have to say, I don't think that you want me as a designer. Cause we're not aligning. Let me recommend someone else. I don't.

[Gracie Miller]

Well, because at that point, too, they're taking the space of another project that could be.

[Caroline Turner]

That could want your work exactly. In how you design something. I mean, it's. I feel like we've had this where it's become a really big red flag for us in the onboarding process or. And, like. Cause at this point, we're hiring them as much as they're hiring us almost. And so I feel like we're really watching for that. Of if they're coming for us and our work and, like, our general sensibility, or if it's just they want what they want and they want you to do it.

[Morgan]

Which.

[Caroline Turner]

I've said this before, but this is to another level. I. Yeah, I don't think. I definitely put my name on it.

[Gracie Miller]

No. Yeah, I mean, I definitely wouldn't put my name on it, but I definitely would have a conversation and be like, I don't think this. I don't think we're seeing eye to eye.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't think this is working.

[Morgan]

What about, like, this is. You just started your firm. This is the only client you have, and you're desperate. I think that.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean.

[Morgan]

And there's not a right or wrong answer to.

[Caroline Turner]

I think there's different mindsets of, like, where you are in your career.

[Morgan]

Sometimes you just have to take it. But then there's other. Sure. What you were saying, Gracie. It's like when you say yes to a project, you're saying no to two other projects, and you have to make sure it aligns with what you're building. But also, sometimes there's not desperation. But there's.

[Caroline Turner]

But every client we've taken out of desperation. I've said this, but it's true. Every client we've taken out of desperation turned out to be the nightmare from hell client who doesn't go away for two years, who you don't get paid for the last six months because they've lost some. Like, it's not worth it. And I know as someone who has had to not pay themselves and take a business loan out to, like, cover costs. It cost me more to do those jobs. We lost so much money because to your point, I would rather you guys be able to, like, be well rested and ready to take on the next job when it comes, versus taking on these jobs that are, like, just to fill the space. To fill the space and maybe make a buck. But then at the end of the day, you don't even really make money because you're not making enough to pay all the. It's.

[Morgan]

And you can't use that project to get other clients either.

[Caroline Turner]

It's a dead end.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, I definitely think, to be clear, this is not passing judgment on the person who stayed on the project. They're stronger than I am.

[Gracie Miller]

Truly. Truly.

[Caroline Turner]

When I get to the point where I feel like the client just don't care what I have to say, I feel like, why am I here? And to be clear, I'm very particular. And so, like, I actually don't mind a particular client.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, we have no. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Tons of particular clients.

[Gracie Miller]

There's a difference.

[Caroline Turner]

That's not what we're saying. Yeah, we're saying, like, that they're. I mean, fully ignoring every single thing this designer is saying and doing, like, hideous, horrible things that they're like, gonna have to rip out eventually and that. That are potentially lowering their property value. That's like, against what we do as a job. So I feel like at some point.

[Morgan]

Or they're gonna run its course and it's gonna be trendy for a year, and then it's not gonna be trendy in another year.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, I guess. Yeah, that's their funeral.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah. I've dealt with this, a similar situation with a project that I took on, you know, early in my career. And. Yeah, like what Morgan said, if it's early in your career and, like, you don't have other projects, like, it's kind of. You're in a rock and a hard place and you just gotta write it out and, like, let it happen. Because, like, what else are you supposed to do?

[Morgan]

You gotta pay your bills sometimes you.

[Gracie Miller]

Gotta pay your bills. You gotta get through it. And I mean, there are just people out there that just. You cannot get through. Like, it's just not gonna happen.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, I think it's one thing if they're not listening to you, but then they're not happy with the end result.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, that's happened. Like, I'm saying, where we recommend something, the client wants to do it anyway, and then they're like, why didn't you tell me? I did. So I feel like if they're saying we want this, but then they're happy with it.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And they. There's no. I mean, you know, I would say don't take a referral from them, but otherwise, I mean. Yeah, get your bag.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

But also it goes back to being the help. Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Where it's like 1000%.

[Morgan]

We've talked. I mean, this is like the through line that we have almost.

[Caroline Turner]

Is the money worth the shit that you have to go through?

[Morgan]

Well, and too, it's like if a client just wants to hire you to say, I want a shag rug, I want this. I want this. This is exactly what I want. Which I respect the client for having that vision and that they know, because a lot of times. But also do it yourself. Then don't hire a professional.

[Gracie Miller]

You don't need a designer. You need a little consultation for an hour.

[Caroline Turner]

You need an assistant.

[Morgan]

Yeah, exactly. That can help you do it. You don't hire someone for their expertise and their taste to do exactly what you want. Like, that's. That's not fulfilling. And we talked, you know, at the beginning when you were talking about your job, and you want to be empowered and inspired and you don't get empowered or inspired by doing work.

[Gracie Miller]

No, that's drags you down.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like we have one particular client who will hopefully be on the podcast, and she is very, like, deep into the design world, and I feel like she knows a lot. And so when she hired me, said, I want this to be collaborative. I want to be super involved. And I feel like that client is actually kind of a dream client because they're so in it, and they want this to be as good as you want it to be, and they want it to be in magazines, and they feel so strongly about it, and so.

[Morgan]

And they respect your craft, too.

[Caroline Turner]

That's exactly what I was gonna say. That specifically this client will say, I never would have thought of that. I'm so glad I hired you. Which that's not to say that we need, like, praise. It's more so just to acknowledge that you are a professional for a reason. We're working together, but at the end of the day, she trusts our judgment.

[Gracie Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And will listen to me if I say really wouldn't recommend it. And that, I feel like, is the difference.

[Morgan]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

If you feel like when it's really important. Important, you are being heard. That's what matters.

[Gracie Miller]

Like, if your client doesn't trust you, like, you're in hell.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it's never gonna work.

[Gracie Miller]

It's gonna be terrible the entire time.

[Caroline Turner]

And that is what's not worth it. Like that doing the. You pull a bunch of things, and then they pull a bunch of things and send it to you. And it's like, again, we're not.

[Gracie Miller]

It's like, you don't respect what I'm doing. You don't actually want me to.

[Morgan]

Or you want to have the control that you won't let someone do it. So then it's like, then you should just do it.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

You gotta let.

[Caroline Turner]

That would be like me hiring you and then doing. Telling you every single little step of how to do your job.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

It would be easier for me to just do it. Right.

[Gracie Miller]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

How is that not.

[Gracie Miller]

You're wasting your time.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so let's give them a little penance. I feel like we could give the clients some penance, perhaps. And I think their penance is that they have to live with everything they chose forever.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

They have to wake up, you love every morning, and look at that.

[Caroline Turner]

You love, loved it. You wanted it. You can never change it.

[Morgan]

Yep. You made your bed, baby.

[Caroline Turner]

You chose the trendiest thing anyone's ever seen. Good luck in 10 years. And you know what? If that's what you wanted.

[Morgan]

And if they love it.

[Caroline Turner]

So happy you're happy. It isn't even penance if they love it.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Gracie Miller]

But don't ever call me again.

[Morgan]

Yeah, right.

[Caroline Turner]

Lose my number.

[Morgan]

Lose this designer's number.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan]

And you cannot tell anyone who designed it.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Morgan]

For that.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

I'm actually retiring.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I think the designer's been insane is they need to maybe change their name because I don't think we want you.

[Gracie Miller]

Need anyone new identity.

[Caroline Turner]

Go into it, Ms. Witness Protection or something.

[Gracie Miller]

Get out of there. Get out of there. Get out of there. Get out of there.

[Caroline Turner]

Confession number two. Let's get into it. Get into it. Get into it. Get into it. Let me set the scene. I was working at a high end design firm. The kind where the clients are dripping in money and the projects are as glamorous as they come. That sounds amazing. It should have been a dream job, right? But there was one glaring issue. My boss. She was insufferable. She'd breeze into meetings 20 minutes late, interrupt everyone with half baked ideas.

[Morgan]

Carolyn, I'm laughing because I'm like, is this me?

[Caroline Turner]

This kid?

[Gracie Miller]

Okay, you said it, not me. Meetings 20 minutes late.

[Caroline Turner]

Not as a client, but, you know, there's a lot going on. Okay.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah. We're giving honestly, it's a good perspective.

[Morgan]

We're having a little bit of empathy for her.

[Gracie Miller]

Maybe she.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I can definitely empathize. Okay. She was insufferable. She'd breeze into meetings 20 minutes late, interrupt everyone with half baked ideas, and take credit for work she barely glanced at.

[Morgan]

Yeah. So you wouldn't do that?

[Gracie Miller]

I would definitely.

[Caroline Turner]

No, no, no. Clients would look confused when she spoke, but they were too polite to call her out. That's where I came in. My job was to make her chaos look like brilliance. I'd explain her vague ideas in ways that actually made sense, smooth over her tantrums when clients pushed back and hon do most of the actual design work. Clients started noticing. And soon they'd pull me aside after meetings to ask, can I just email you directly? You seem to really get it.

[Gracie Miller]

Ooh.

[Caroline Turner]

Which I actually know someone that this happened to, so this is so interesting. At first I'd redirect them to follow the official channels. But then one day, a client I absolutely adored called me up, sounding frustrated. She told me she was sick of dealing with my boss, but loved working with me. And then she said it. The words that changed everything. If you ever decide to free freelance, call me. So I did. It started small. I'd Take on little side projects for clients who were already fed up with my boss. I'd meet them after hours, send designs for my personal email, and invoice them discreetly. They'd rave about how much easier it was to work with me and I'd quietly pocket the cash.

[Gracie Miller]

That's.

[Morgan]

Feels like a little affair. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

Cause you're.

[Gracie Miller]

That's a little dicey.

[Caroline Turner]

It does seem like this is the type of boss who would never be okay with their like employee freelancing. And so I feel like.

[Morgan]

Yeah. If they're taking some of the projects, is it that they're no longer working.

[Caroline Turner]

Or did they not noticing that they're losing clients or that they're losing parts.

[Morgan]

Of the project too? It's like, oh, we're not taking, you know, we're only doing the kitchen that maybe they've already started. But the rest of the house she's doing.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, but yeah, like the invoicing too. Like how, how. Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

I have so many questions.

[Gracie Miller]

So many questions.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's keep going and we'll circle back.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

The thrill of it all was addicting. I was building my own client base under my boss's nose. And honestly, I felt like I was doing the clients a favor. They didn't deserve her incompetence and I didn't deserve to work under someone so ungrateful. Interesting.

[Gracie Miller]

That's.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, that's very interesting because I feel like I have felt this as an employee that I was having to like cover for my boss or like I. Yeah. Was picking up things, but never to this level. Like I. I've had bosses I didn't love, but they never been like fully incompetent. That's not.

[Gracie Miller]

And just like. Because it also sounds like her boss, if she's not realizing all of this.

[Caroline Turner]

Is she just like asleep with the wheel?

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, like maybe she.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, not to say you deserve it, but like if you don't know that your clients are like jumping ship.

[Gracie Miller]

Constantly out right out from under you.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, that is a red flag. Like what's.

[Morgan]

Especially if it's at this big glamorous firm or a high end design firm. Unless this is just. She has a million clients and this is just another one and she doesn't even really care. And it's like, I guess it's like.

[Caroline Turner]

If it were me and Gracie and it was like two people working in an office.

[Morgan]

There's no.

[Caroline Turner]

But if it's like a 30 person team and you're sure, like maybe, you know though. Because I Feel like then wouldn't you just be the senior designer and your boss would just let you handle it? Like, it's kind of right, it seems like. Right.

[Gracie Miller]

And like, why not just quit? Why not just quit and then you can go after those clients. Sure, yeah. I mean, as long as there's no legal.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's like, still some wishy washy stuff with that, but it's a lot better than doing it when you're working for your boss. And that's playing with fire.

[Morgan]

That is playing with fire at the same time. Because then you don't have any trust with your boss. But you also need to have trust with your clients that they're not going to say. And that's not a good. Any relationship.

[Caroline Turner]

I wouldn't be able to sleep. I wouldn't say.

[Gracie Miller]

I. I would be freaking.

[Caroline Turner]

I would be so anxious. I would have quit before I ever did that. Just for my own mental health. There's too many people.

[Gracie Miller]

The ability to say something.

[Morgan]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

That's not. And I mean, even, like, your client slips or like, gets around.

[Morgan]

Well, they're like, we don't need your help. This person. Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

And like, also, it's your reputation. Like, you don't want to be known as that one. That's sneaky. If you can't go out on your own, who's going to want to hire you next? Like, what if she gets fired? Then who's going to. I don't know. That one's dicey.

[Caroline Turner]

Eventually, it all came to a head. One of the clients I'd been working with on the side decided to leave the firm entirely and asked me to manage their product as an independent designer. Ah, okay. So she was doing, like, smaller pieces of the project within the firm, which is almost weirder, but okay. It was my moment of truth. I quit the firm, walked out with my portfolio and a few clients in tow and never looked back. Do I feel guilty? A little. But mostly I feel liberal. In the end, I wasn't just designing spaces. I was designing a career I actually wanted. I mean, I appreciate the positive spin and I do think, like, obviously, what should have happened. What happened is what should have happened from the beginning, which is to leave.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I really do feel like all of this could have been avoided in some way. I think, though, it's probably easy to get sucked into, like, the. You already know these clients. You want to do a good job for them. They're asking you to do this on the side.

[Morgan]

You're young and you're eager you have someone who doesn't think that they care.

[Caroline Turner]

And if you don't feel like you can talk to your boss and tell her, then, yeah, what's going on? I feel like. Then you kind of feel like, well, I don't really have a choice. She's not doing what she needs to do. I can't.

[Gracie Miller]

I'm already on this project anyway.

[Caroline Turner]

If that ever happened, you would come to me and be like, these clients are upset about X, Y, Z. Yeah. So it's just interesting that, like, also the clients felt like they could go. Like, there's some respect issues all around, for sure, I think. Which probably comes from the designer being such a disaster. But if you're then that client, why not just leave the firm? That's the other thing. Can you imagine if one of our clients was, like, didn't like me, but asked you to do the job still at the firm?

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah. Like, that's just.

[Caroline Turner]

That would be so weird.

[Morgan]

Right? And it's like, you know the saying where it's like, oh, if you're gonna get together with someone that had cheated, or, like, you're cheating, if they'll cheat.

[Caroline Turner]

With you, they'll cheat on you.

[Morgan]

That's okay. Thank you. That's what I was.

[Caroline Turner]

It's the same thing.

[Morgan]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I. I, as a client, would not feel that I could trust that designer who was okay with going behind her boss's back.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, but also, I wouldn't trust my client if they wanted me to go behind my back. Like, there's all.

[Gracie Miller]

It's just two. There's two shades.

[Caroline Turner]

And maybe those clients and that designer deserve each other. I mean, I guess it can be looked at that way. I don't know, though, because I feel like even if your boss is bad, I would love to know, like, how long did they work for this boss? Did they work for other people before? I have so many questions because I.

[Gracie Miller]

Need a little more hands of people.

[Caroline Turner]

Who, like, you know, you guys have all worked with me for a long time. So I'm trying to think of, like, if someone came in and felt like I wasn't managing things correctly and they. I don't know. It's hard for me to relate to because.

[Morgan]

Well, I think the thing is you would never let it get to a point where they were going behind your back.

[Caroline Turner]

Right.

[Morgan]

But I feel like, okay, in a world, if one of your clients was like, gracie, I just love working for you.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

And they were like, hey, Caroline, is it okay if we work directly with Gracie on this?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

You'd be like, please.

[Caroline Turner]

You know, so it's funny, like, you.

[Morgan]

Would let them, but maybe. It sounds like this boss wouldn't, but it's interesting. It feels like she wants a lot.

[Caroline Turner]

Of control, but then doesn't want to do anything.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

This is one of the ones that I wish we had their phone number and we could call them and ask these questions. Because I'm also thinking of, like. I think you probably know what I'm thinking of. A designer locally, one of her designers left and, like, word on the street is, took some clients and. And I think so much about it, because it's like, I am in the boss's situation, but I've also been. I've never taken clients, to be clear on air, I have never taken anyone's clients. That's not what I'm saying. I would be too scared. Just legally, I would be too scared. It's not worth it to me. But I do think that this is not all that uncommon. And it's an interesting thing, because I feel like in creative jobs, at least I'll speak for myself. I put a lot of time and energy into, like, nurturing their talent and making sure, like, teaching them things, but then letting them, like, go and do trainings or whatever they want to do to, like, get better at this job. And so I think I would just feel, like, really hurt if it was, like, one of my employees left and took a bunch of my clients without first talking to me.

[Morgan]

Because you could have worked something out. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

But I do acknowledge, because I've also had bosses that are, like, impossible, and I've spoken to them, and they still don't. And so then it's like, you're not really being given a choice. I think for me, I just would have left to begin with before I took on any of those clients, but.

[Morgan]

And then you can poach.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. If you leave and your clients know you left and you can say, like, I mean, I think it's still a little murky. Both my attorney parents are like, do not give legal advice on the podcast. Caroline, you are not an attorney.

[Gracie Miller]

Fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Which is. Girl, you guys are. Okay. Fair. So I feel like it's, you know, it's murky, especially just depending on the state. But at least then, like, morally, yes, it's not. I think that morally, if you've left and there's a clean break and then those clients come to you. Yeah, that's a different thing entirely.

[Morgan]

And I mean, for this person who is writing in, there is a little bit where he or she. Or they want to get their foot in the store and they want to start their own business and they have to grind in the hustle.

[Caroline Turner]

And as someone who's freelanced when working at another firm with permission, I would never have been working with one of the firm's clients. That is the line, I think, like.

[Gracie Miller]

Do you want to get sued?

[Caroline Turner]

Do you. Are you asking to get sued? I would like to put it.

[Morgan]

She didn't like, that's why it worked out.

[Caroline Turner]

But also, it sounds like this boss is that she's not going to fight back. Which.

[Morgan]

Or they maybe it's such a big firm where they're like, take off.

[Caroline Turner]

But then at that point, why not go to your boss and say, I want to leave. Like, can I take these three clients? That happens where people will say, I will pay you for these clients.

[Morgan]

Oh, interesting.

[Caroline Turner]

You can build your portion that of like, especially if you're just a senior designer at another firm. An infamous split. I'm not going to name names, but an infamous split that we all know about in the Chicago design world. She was able to take clients with her because they were her clients.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And she was under an umbrella, but she was the one that was, like, communicating with them. She was the one designing. And so I obviously don't know the details, but she was able to walk away with some of the firm's clients because she also brought in a lot of clients.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

That's the other thing. I think that when you're freelancing, especially. Especially under somebody else's umbrella, you have no idea what they had to do to get that client. And so I feel like you're then, like, sort of coasting on all of the work they've done to get to that level of clientele. Because even if they're asleep at the wheel now, they had to be good at some point to get to this point. I mean, some people fall up, but it's fairly rare. And so I feel like maybe there's something going on with the boss in the last six. Like, is there something that they don't know about? Like, there's so many factors that could be happening. And I think if you want to freelance outside of work, I mean, and, you know, you want to take that risk, at minimum, find your own clients for sure also because, minimum, you need to learn that that's how it's actually going to be.

[Gracie Miller]

Exactly. Yes, exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

So what is the penance that we are given and who.

[Morgan]

And we're giving it to?

[Caroline Turner]

I think the person who the designer the designer took the work and left this company.

[Gracie Miller]

Wait, pause. What is penance?

[Caroline Turner]

No, we're keeping that in. We are keeping that in.

[Morgan]

Grace is like. Yes, that's a great question when you think about it. I'm sorry, what is that?

[Caroline Turner]

Can you define the word? It's like punishment, essentially.

[Gracie Miller]

Oh.

[Caroline Turner]

But we don't necessarily mean it like forgiveness. Well, it kind of. So, okay. Penance is when you give confession. The priest will say, do three Hail Marys and five are fathers, and you will be forgiven. So it's like what you do in order to, like. I think of it more like a karmic level, but in the Catholic Church, they're saying is like, absolve yourself. Absolve your sins. I mean, you still have to, like, do all those other things. But confession is considered to be like. If you go to confession, your sins are cleansed, and you're doing the penance in order to, like, close the loop, essentially. That's not the verbiage they use, but you know what I mean.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah, I catch a drift. Okay. Penance for her, I think, honestly, she's gotta lose a client to someone else.

[Caroline Turner]

Or I think her penance is in about five years when she has someone who she's hired, they do the same thing to her.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I don't mean that like wishing anyone poorly. I just mean, like, it's so interesting to not. Like, you can't know how that other designer is feeling until it happens to you. And I feel like it's just like.

[Morgan]

You have some empathy once.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. It would be, I think, a good growing exercise to, like, have that also happen to you. Alternatively, it could be, like, in a couple years when you have too much work, like, kick it down to someone else.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, pay it forward, essentially. Even though you didn't necessarily go about it in a way that's, like, perfect. You got through it and, like, nothing bad happened. So take that and sort of, like, give it to other people. Yeah. I think also just karmically, that would make you feel better.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Because if she said she felt a little guilty, but at the end of the day, she's like.

[Gracie Miller]

She's a person.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I mean, bad bosses exist for sure, and I've had them. And I mean, like, again, I would never cross a legal line, but I've certainly been in experiences where I've been like, why am I doing any of this for any of these people? So at the end of the day, I mean, I understand things can exist.

[Morgan]

At the same time.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's get into some questions. Okay, I'm excited. First one being, is it okay to voice creative ideas as an intern, or should you just keep your head down and listen?

[Gracie Miller]

Ooh, this is a good question. Because I do think that's a really big thing, especially, like, at bigger companies. Like, and I'm sure you can speak to this. When you're an intern or an assistant, you don't speak. Yeah, that's not. You just. You cannot speak.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, we were literally told you were to be seen and not heard.

[Gracie Miller]

But alternatively, when I was working with you as an intern, I was encouraged to. But there's also the boundary line that you have to, like, be aware of and just, you know, I think that's kind of also a maturity thing.

[Morgan]

Yes, a maturity thing.

[Caroline Turner]

Knowing when it's appropriate, when it's appropriate.

[Gracie Miller]

And when it's not. Yeah. Because you definitely want us to have our input, but, like, never would I be at a client meeting and be like, actually, Caroline, that's wrong.

[Caroline Turner]

You wouldn't correct me. Right. And that's. I feel like, what. I mean, unless.

[Gracie Miller]

Unless it was like an obvious, like, you know.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I guess that's correct. You would correct me, but not in a way that's like, demeaning towards me.

[Gracie Miller]

But like an idiot.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like. And sometimes I will not ask their opinion because I feel like the clients are too overwhelmed with my opinion.

[Gracie Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, if they're having a hard time deciding and they want more opinion, they'll be like, gracie, Grace, blah, blah, blah, whatever. What do you guys think? Sometimes they don't even want my opinion.

[Gracie Miller]

It's very much like, read the room.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And I think you have to have some level of social awareness in order to do this.

[Morgan]

And maturity too, because, yeah. There are some opportunities where especially I think a good opportunity that you can do this is if it's just you and your boss in a meeting, like.

[Caroline Turner]

A one on one person, and you.

[Morgan]

Guys are talking about things and you're just like, wait, hey, I had this idea. Like, what do you think about it?

[Gracie Miller]

Right. Completely different. Because, yeah, you can definitely, you know, and you should scheming and like, you're like, oh, what about this? Like, you should definitely do that. But like, yeah, if you're with a client, like, read the room. Yeah. And I know that it can be kind of hard because also you're an intern. This is your first. Like, you want to prove yourself, you're excited, you want to prove yourself. And there's just. You got to toe that line really? Fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I do think often when I waited and like, didn't give my opinion and then I let someone ask me, that's often when they also took my opinion more heavily anyway. So I feel like it's not necessarily just waiting to be asked. I would say in a situation where if your boss is presenting or talking to a client or something to that effect, generally speaking, you're taking notes. What I will often do is be like, do you have that. Do you need me to talk? Like making sure. Like talking to them, but less about, like they're then talking out into the meeting just because there's like too much happening.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And then we'll debrief afterwards. We'll like talk through and I'll be like, by the way, what did you think about that thing? Like, what did you think they said about that?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And so. So I think that's when you guys get to voice your opinions about, like, oh, actually when you said that, I was thinking X. But often they want to check with me anyway. They're not just going to say something random in front of the client that we haven't talked about.

[Gracie Miller]

Well, of course, because you don't want to say something and then also it be not a great idea.

[Caroline Turner]

Or wrong. Or wrong.

[Gracie Miller]

And then you're just. Then you look like an idiot.

[Morgan]

Yeah. And you don't want to. I feel like this is a big theme in this episode as well, is you don't want to undermine your boss in any situation because at the end of the day, if you are working for someone, one of your jobs, you know, not explicitly, but is to make your boss look good in a certain capacity. And when you make your boss look, there's a lot of ripple effects to that too. So even with the confessions, Right. Like, you going behind your boss's back doesn't make your boss or you necessarily look good in these situations too. Right. You have to read the room a little bit and decide, okay, when is it that it's appropriate or not? I think that comes with time. And if you don't know, I would probably advise against just wait until it's just a private conversation and then, you know, you'll. You'll learn that skill a little bit more as you.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think ideally try to find a job that wants to nurture that in you. Like, I actually think it's a good litmus test for where to work if you're an intern and they don't give a fuck about your opinion. Because honestly, whenever we get new interns I get so excited because it's like fresh blood, which sounds creepy. They're going to come in with new ideas.

[Morgan]

Someone else had changed.

[Caroline Turner]

They're coming off of school, so they probably know things that we don't. I feel like I don't even know what they're getting taught at this point.

[Morgan]

Like, what's the hot new things? What's everyone talking about?

[Caroline Turner]

I think it's you can be an asset. So try to voice your opinion on the things that you are an asset on. And then otherwise, like, if it's something that is something your boss would know that's not. When you voice your opinion, you voice your opinion. When it's like something that you uniquely know or you have a thought on your whatever. I feel like that's when it always pays off, you know, if you have, you know, someone who's willing to work with you. Okay. To be successful as an interior designer, do you need to intern at a prestigious firm with high end clients? I'm about to graduate and don't have much experience and I'm having trouble getting a full time job.

[Gracie Miller]

I don't think so. I don't think that you have to work at a prestigious firm.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Gracie Miller]

To make it. Because yeah, they might have the high paying clients and you know, the big project, the name, whatever, but at the end of the day, how much work are you actually being able to do? Like, how involved are you? Like, you might just be a cad monkey.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and I think it's like there's a couple different avenues you can go down. I made a very conscious decision that I wanted to work with like names on my resume. So that way when I went and started my own firm, like people could look at their names and be like, oh, she worked for them. Okay, she must, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But I do think that you have to know what you're getting with each experience. Like, I've worked for very prestigious firms, like some of the most prestigious firms, but I can guarantee you that a lot of those bosses don't even know who I am.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like there's no real investment into you. And that's not their fault. Like, they're running a massive company, they have a thousand things going on. And to be clear, I mean, Kelly, we're sorry. I had like the best experience. She was so great about that. But she also had like a thousand things going on. And so I feel like that was an example of a prestigious firm that I did learn a lot and like the payoff was worth it. Not because it was prestigious.

[Gracie Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Because it's almost like because chicken or the egg. She's prestigious because she's so good at what she does. And that also helps you then be good at. You're learning from someone who's actually good at the job. Where there. There are prestigious firms that just. But a. Maybe that designer doesn't even work anymore.

[Gracie Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Like it might just be their name on the door, but they're not the ones teaching you. I think that's when it's like, why go to that firm if you're not learning from the person from the actual. Who's prestigious.

[Morgan]

Right, right.

[Caroline Turner]

Just to have the work for like Gensler. What's the point?

[Gracie Miller]

And if you are going to work with that person, odds are when you're first there, you're not going to ever see that person. You're never going to work with them, you're never going to speak with them.

[Caroline Turner]

And that's okay. Like if you are fine with that, you just have to decide on your priorities. Whereas like I think actually a lot of people get better jobs from working at like a one or two or three person firm. Because you're thrown in the fire.

[Gracie Miller]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

You know everything.

[Morgan]

Yes. And you can tailor your next. Because you have 100 experiences.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

It's. You have like a wider breadth of experiences so that when you find a new job that you want, you can say, oh my God, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. Versus if you have a more prestigious, more tailored role at another company, you can only do this. And you're really only good at that. Where there's just a lot more that you.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and you're an asset to them. They're not an asset to you. Their name and like it will help you get a job. But I mean you said there's so many internships where they're giving you like busy work to give you busy work. Right. But that doesn't happen at a three or four person team.

[Gracie Miller]

No, never.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

We would never waste the manpower.

[Gracie Miller]

I never just had busy work.

[Caroline Turner]

Never. Like which we don't have work to do. We're not working. And that's not a. So for real. Like that's not how that works. At least not in my world. No. So I feel like you can go both ways to address the. I'm about to graduate and I don't have much experience. Experience isn't even really the thing because I mean we've hired people out of school and I mean maybe they have like one job or one internship or something. Yes.

[Gracie Miller]

I mean, we hire juniors, junior interiors, so, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, you're supposed to be learning under those people. I do think that maybe if you have no experience and you're about to graduate, I would at least try to start an internship while you're in school. So that way you have, like, some general experience. It's interesting because typically, most programs that are CETA accredited, you're required to have an internship.

[Morgan]

Oh, internship.

[Caroline Turner]

In order to graduate.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And when I was in school, I had multiple internships, and it didn't count for school credit, and I didn't get paid. It was just experience. And, I mean, that's a privileged place to come from that I could go and do that without getting paid. I absolutely acknowledge that. But I do think having those experiences made me a much easier hire. Or at the very least, it always got me the interview.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like the hardest part of getting hired. Oh, my God. Breaking through their inbox.

[Morgan]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

Getting to them directly. And I'll give you a little tip. Find people that have smaller firms that you love and connect with them on social media. Yes, Morgan can speak to this, because this is exactly what she did. But I feel like email, TikTok, Instagram. But it's. Especially if you're in my position and you're so busy and there's a thousand things going on. It's never that I'm, like, ignoring. It's always that I missed the message or something happened. And so when I feel like someone's being really, like, dogged and they want to speak with me, they want to work with me, they feel, like, really strongly about our goals. Of course, that makes me want them to work with us.

[Morgan]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So I feel like that, really, you're showing how much tenacity you have by even just going out and hustling for it. Yeah. I don't think you can go wrong on where you intern. I think experience is experience. But just putting yourself in the position to learn, whether it's at a massive firm, you will still learn. Which might be that you don't want to do that.

[Gracie Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

Which is also valuable. It is.

[Gracie Miller]

It's just as valuable. My first internship. Hated it. Literally hated every single day. Went home and cried because I was like, this is the most boring thing I've ever done in my life.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

But that was valuable knowledge for me to know, because now I knew. I was like, I thought I wanted to do commercial design. And I was like, no, this is not for you.

[Morgan]

Sometimes to Know what you want to do, you have to figure out what you don't want to do.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think that is. It can feel like wasted time looking back. But those experiences taught me way more than when I was like, super happy at a job.

[Morgan]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Because I feel like you're really having, having to grind.

[Morgan]

And then the other. I feel like I'm going to sound like my parents when I say this too is I've had jobs in internships, full transparency, where I was like, this isn't really what I want to do. It's not the prestigious name or whatever. And honestly, I kind of half assed them. And I think we've been there and you have to do what you have to do. But I feel like I wish I would have gone back in certain situations and realized that even if this is not the dream job at the commercial place, people know people who know people. And it's always, you know, better to go in and really make the most out of a situation or an experience because, you know, there's. You never know when you need someone who might know someone and you see that they're connected on LinkedIn or Instagram.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Morgan]

Those bridges. I wish I wouldn't. Not that I necessarily burned bridges, but I wish I would have taken more advantage because people know people who know people. And that's how you, you get opportunities is through people, you know, take a shot every time I say people.

[Caroline Turner]

Final question. I love my job and I would ideally want to stay here forever. Is there a way to make myself indispensable?

[Morgan]

Well, we have the queen to answer.

[Caroline Turner]

Really do I feel like you've done this, so you should answer this.

[Gracie Miller]

Definitely. Come to this job, especially at a small business with things that, like, this is so funny to say, but like, Caroline didn't know what CANVA was.

[Caroline Turner]

I didn't.

[Gracie Miller]

And now every single presentation, everything we do, like, we use Canva for everything. Yeah. Showing Canva.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Sponsor us.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, please. You can email Morgan.

[Gracie Miller]

Morgan throwing me. But yeah, I mean, bringing things to the table that you know, lines that maybe you learned in school that are, you know, what else? Just different techniques, different ways to do things, like just bringing any type of new idea that can benefit any part of this process is going to make you indispensable or make your job or.

[Morgan]

Your boss's job a little easier.

[Gracie Miller]

Exactly.

[Morgan]

This is what I would tell my interns or people that would work under me too, is if you want to be, especially if you're just starting out or you're an intern or Whatever it is, if you want to put value immediately, it sounds not sexy at all. Take notes and send follow ups. Yeah, it is the least sexy thing.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes.

[Morgan]

But everyone will want to kiss you on the list because it is like, oh, my God, you are a genius.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, we did that with Grace.

[Gracie Miller]

No, literally, like, we had her come in, take notes on everything, and it is.

[Caroline Turner]

She blew me away with her.

[Morgan]

Yeah. She's crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

She said she learned how to take them in school. And I was like, I wish we learned that. Because they're. We've had clients be like, these notes are like, it's. And that is a big reason, not the only reason. She's great.

[Gracie Miller]

We love working. Which I feel like we should clarify.

[Caroline Turner]

Grace. Oh, right. Yes. Grace is our employee.

[Gracie Miller]

I am Gracie.

[Caroline Turner]

So I did accidentally employ two beautiful blondes named Grace and Gracie, and both of their last names start with M, so. So I don't get it confused. I don't have a type. Even though it looks. Morgan's also blonde and beautiful, so it's a little bit looking like, this is my problem. But listen, there are two different people, and once you get them, you get it. But yeah, all clients are like. They just use them in our chain. It doesn't matter.

[Gracie Miller]

We're just like, whatever.

[Morgan]

Sometimes I do, too. It's even embarrassing. I'm like, okay, I should know this by now.

[Caroline Turner]

And then they both answered to us.

[Gracie Miller]

It's fine.

[Morgan]

Or the girls. I love calling you girls.

[Caroline Turner]

I know. And I did ask them. I was like, are you guys okay with me calling you the girls? Cause I don't want it to be like, do you want to be called the women? And they're like, no, we like the girls.

[Gracie Miller]

The ladies.

[Caroline Turner]

The women. Sounds weird.

[Gracie Miller]

And I was like, fair.

[Caroline Turner]

Well.

[Morgan]

And what's even worse is when we all start morphing into each other, too. It's just like, oh, well, I have those shoes, too. I have that. No, literally, I have that jacket. I have this. And we all kind of show up dressing the same, and you're like.

[Gracie Miller]

Like the exact same.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm creating a little army.

[Gracie Miller]

I love it.

[Morgan]

Our little mini Caroline. Powerful shit. Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm not forcing this. I promise I will say also, because you can't say this yourself, but I'm going to say it. I feel like you do a great, great, great job of anticipating my needs. And that started as, like, almost in an assistant way, because I didn't like when you started. We didn't have as many projects as we have now by any means. So it was like we were working together side by side, and I would be on the phone, and then you would, like, do something that someone was asking me to do on the phone. So I feel like anticipating needs of your boss, and that is, I mean, indispensable. Because when you are in this position and you feel like there's, like, a thousand things going on at all times for someone to say, hey, I did xyz and, like, marry me honestly, kiss.

[Morgan]

Me on the list.

[Caroline Turner]

That's a proposal. I don't know what to tell you, but I feel like that is really, like, all someone in my position could ask. And that's not to say you have to, like, guess. Listen to what your boss says. In the first couple weeks, they'll probably tell you. And then, you know, I. You would do something, and I'd be like, oh, my God, thank you. And then I feel like you would be like, okay, she wants me to do that from now on. I didn't even know exactly what I needed from her, and so she just kind of, like, filled in. And I feel like you've still had, like, a ton of growth. Like, it's not like you've stayed in that assistant position by any means, but I feel like because you were in that position made it very clear that I was like, well, she has to stay. Like, she can't go. She'll stay never. So I don't know what to tell you. So I feel like that really? And you still do it. Like, there will be things on our calendar, and you'll be like, okay, I did XYZ for you to look at or make sure you do. She'll text me and be like, don't forget to do this. Thank God.

[Gracie Miller]

Like, your personal, like, reminder.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, if reminders on my phone was a person.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah. But I think also, like, going off of that when you're first in your job, it is so crucial to pay attention. And like you said, taking notes and listening to things that you don't even.

[Caroline Turner]

Think, write it down.

[Gracie Miller]

Write everything down. No, everything. And you really ingrained that in me when I first started, because taking notes was not my strong suit by any means. But Caroline constantly was telling me, any conversation, write down notes. And I think that has just to, like, like, of course I forget things, but, like, it just, like, keeps you so much more in check. And then you just find out how people work so much easier because it just. I don't know, it helps delineate what.

[Caroline Turner]

Needs to be one for me to know that we have good Notes about something means that it doesn't have to live in my brain forever. And so it's like, it's. I'm able to step away from that. Move on. And then let's revisit the notes because I know they were well taken and whatever. And I feel like it's hard because every business wants different types of notes and all of that, but especially in this business, my God, if you don't have someone taking notes at every single meeting, you're doing something wrong.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because the amount of times that we could have been checks and troubles, but we had notes that said. We said xyz or we did xyz. I mean, I'll tell you one thing about working at a prestigious firm. They taught me that.

[Gracie Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because there's so much when you're in that situation that. And, I mean, I think in the early days, they were like, we have nothing to lose. You need to come calm the fuck down. But it created this system where, like, we have the receipts.

[Morgan]

Yes, you want them?

[Caroline Turner]

We got them. Don't you worry. And so I'm. No receipts.

[Morgan]

Timeline.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you, Heather Gay, we love you. No, but I feel like, literally, it's. That's the other thing. Like, I also introduced them all to Housewives.

[Gracie Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

And I've created a bravo with, like, Coven.

[Gracie Miller]

We made a whole other podcast episode just about housewives. Like, housewives.

[Morgan]

Yep.

[Gracie Miller]

Let's talk Housewives.

[Morgan]

Yep, Housewives. And yap.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know why that just came up, why that just popped in my brain, but I think that I. And I did live in fear, like, the first two years, that someone was gonna sue us and I would get my business taken away. I wanna be clear.

[Gracie Miller]

We literally always thought we were gonna get sued.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, also, I have two attorney parents, so, like, this is their fault. Let's blame them also, because they'd be like, you're gonna get sued. Like, they were done.

[Gracie Miller]

And then I was just like, karen, like, no, you're not. No, you're not.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm like, it's okay. Bottom line is, no, you're not. You're probably not unless you really fuck something up. So don't live in fear. Like, I was. Even if clients tell you that, they're just trying to scare. But you don't have to worry about it if you have notes. Like, if you took the notes that you did the thing you were supposed to do and it got emailed out, it's obvious everyone agreed.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I sleep fairly well at night knowing that we have all of those things in check and if something were to happen, we have it. And I think that is while seems like very basic information. I mean we this year are working on our biggest project with an unnamed contracting company that doesn't take notes and so they have meetings with like the client that it's a he said, she said then they can't prove anything. And I'm like for 25 years.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Gracie Miller]

Yeah. It just.

[Caroline Turner]

And you aren't taking notes like how are we how have you not gotten sued? Do you know what I mean? And I think really that is it's a lot and it seems like a waste of time and sometimes it is but the time that you need it and you have there is nothing like it. Okay, thank you all for listening so much. Make sure that you go and join our Facebook group Confessions of Interior Designer. Also, don't forget to leave your confessions and questions on our website and I'll see you next week. Until then, peace be with.