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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm Caroline Turner. Today we're here with Shannon Claire Interiors. Shannon is a fabulous designer out of D.C. working all over the country. Her style lends itself to elegantly appointed rooms with an accessible and comfortable feel. She is also the one who will always get a response from me anytime she posts an Instagram story. Shannon, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited.
- [00:47]
B
Thank you for having me. I am so excited to be here. Your studio looks gorgeous. You look gorgeous.
- [00:52]
A
Thank you. You as well. We were just talking about our shared skincare routine, which I love. Shannon, I'm so excited to hear how you got here. So give it to me.
- [01:03]
B
Yeah. So. Okay. Well, it's been a journey. As your other guests and the people who are listening, I'm sure we all have our own story here, and no two designer stories are ever the same. Every time I talk to somebody about how they get their start, it's just so fun to listen and find out how we all got to where we are now.
- [01:22]
A
I agree.
- [01:23]
B
Yeah, it's fun to learn. And mine is kind of a twisty story as well, not a linear path.
- [01:32]
A
The best ones are. I feel like that's why I asked this question, because there is no one right way to get into this.
- [01:38]
B
It's so true. I think this kind of presented itself as a career to me before I even thought that this could be an option for me, which was really fun to discover. So, yeah, I went to school to study British literature and thought that I was going to stay in school forever. I just loved school and had no plans past that. I thought, well, yeah, I'll just become a professor. Like, this is the track that I'm on. I love reading. I love writing. Like, that was honestly as much as I had thought about it. So I thought, this is my plan. I'm in college. I'm going to stay in college forever.
- [02:10]
A
Amazing.
- [02:12]
B
Which is very far and very different from interior design. But, yeah, I had gotten married at the same time I was graduating college, and my husband and I bought. I'm, like, really telling my age now, but we got married in 2009, and we bought a foreclosure. A house that was a foreclosure.
- [02:30]
A
Wow.
- [02:31]
B
We had been living in, like, apartments and like, that's what we could afford. And we scraped things together. And I was like, I can DIY this. Like, Pinterest wasn't even a thing yet. Blogs were, you know, just kind of getting to, like, the very height of just having all these resources at our fingertips. So I thought, well, I'm just going to document decorating this house on my budget, on my timeline, as I learn and kind of work through this.
- [02:54]
A
Genius.
- [02:55]
B
So, yeah. So I started a design blog. I got really into it. I documented the process of our house, and I think I probably would really cringe if I, like, went back and looked at some of the original blog posts. I was, like, literally pulling things out of dumpsters and, like, painting them. And I had, like, a. We won't. We didn't talk about it, but I had, like, a farmhouse era. I was like, putting chicken wire on among us hasn't. It's the best of us.
- [03:21]
A
It's also, what is it that they say that if you're not looking back and cringing, then you're not growing? I think that is actually a great sign because I feel the same way. I look back on some of my stuff and I'm like, oh, my God. But I think it's a good sign.
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, It's a great reminder. And also it's fun to see over the past 12, 15 years now how much of that I've reincorporated back into my design style as well. And sometimes I'm like, maybe I wasn't that awful. Maybe I wasn't as bad as I thought I was. Or maybe some of these things are ok.
- [03:51]
A
I think that's the human experience. We're never as bad as we thought we were.
- [03:55]
B
Yeah.
- [03:55]
A
I think trust us. Oh, true.
- [03:56]
B
Oh, my gosh. Such a good reminder. But, yeah, I just started documenting things, and I got people messaging me on the blog and asking if they could hire me to do their house, and it just kind of spiraled from there. I. Even as this was happening, I don't even think I thought, oh, wow, this could be, like, a legitimate career path.
- [04:14]
A
Wow.
- [04:15]
B
And it wasn't until people started asking if they could pay me for design services that I thought, wait a second, like, I could do this as a job.
- [04:22]
A
Oh, maybe this is. Wow, that's so encouraging. And also really speaks to your innate talent.
- [04:29]
B
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think I was discovering that myself at that time, too. I don't think this was something that I thought, like, oh, this is something that I'm good at. I'd Always enjoyed doing it. And we, you know, in college when I had like, apartments with my girlfriends and you know, we decorated them in like a very, like liquor bottles above the cabinets kind of way. Like very college kind of way. But even that, I was like, I'm gonna decorate the hell out of these liquor bottles.
- [04:54]
A
Yes. I'm gonna put fairy lights in the liquor bottles.
- [05:01]
B
If we make backlight them, we can count how many bottles of mad dog. 20. 20 we drank. Like, it'll be fine. It looks great.
- [05:10]
A
College chic.
- [05:12]
B
College chic, exactly. Talk about cringy. I mean, I haven't brought that back. That has into my house.
- [05:19]
A
Hopefully it doesn't. Oh my God, that's funny.
- [05:24]
B
So I always liked doing it, even if I was like buying things at the dollar store and like decorating.
- [05:28]
A
Sure.
- [05:29]
B
You know, so that was there. I just hadn't ever really considered it as like a legitimate career option for some reason.
- [05:34]
A
Wow.
- [05:35]
B
So, yeah, so I just really leaned into it. I did lots of odd jobs. I work, awaited tables. I was a bartender, I was a nanny for many years as I was kind of starting what would turn out to be a design business because it was more like a full fledged design blog at first. And then, yeah, nice. All these years later, here we are. And I am a very small design firm, but I am a full design firm and have moved completely away from any of that design blogging and decorative liquor bottles.
- [06:06]
A
But also, I feel like it's encouraging for someone who maybe took a more traditional route but wants to do this. Like, you took the thing that you were good at, which I have to assume is writing, because that's what you did in school. I mean, you studied other people's writing, but, you know, that can often make a good writer. So a design blog, being able to take that innate passion of design and then vocalize it and really communicate, well, I feel like that is a skill on its own. And then being able to turn that into doing real projects for real people. I mean, that's very cool.
- [06:43]
B
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think I was just doing at that moment. And when you're younger, you're only thinking like one day ahead at a time, if that. Right. And so I thought, okay, well, today I'm going to do this, and then the next day, oh, I'm going to write about design. And the next day I was like, oh, well, okay, well, maybe if I explain this process in this certain way, it'll appeal to even if I didn't know that's what was happening to people who were reading the blog or I kind of thought that maybe the blog was more of the business at the time, but then it transformed over the years. And I was lucky in that the timing worked out for me to be able to start and thrive with a design blog, because I think that would be really hard to do today. Or that was the height of, you know, 2010 was like, it's all about timing. Yeah. So, yeah, that was kind of the luck of that. I got to catch that ride there. And then I just turned it into something that I wasn't aware of to start, but turned it into something that I wanted it to be, even if I was learning each step of the way in a day at a time about what I wanted that to look like.
- [07:44]
A
Sure. That is lovely and I think very inspiring for people listening. That is. Yeah, I love that. And also, you've really brought it full circle. Cause now you have a design substack. So you're writing about design again. How does that feel? Do you have. You liked the return to that? Does it feel like a return to your blogging days? Or what is different about it? What do you love about it? I just asked you about 900 questions, so feel free to answer one of those at most. But so many questions.
- [08:11]
B
Clearly all fantastic and valid questions. Yeah, it's really funny how that did come full circle, I think, several years ago. So I started Shannon Claire and tears in 2013.
- [08:21]
A
Nice. Okay.
- [08:22]
B
I went through a move and this was in. I lived in North Carolina when I started this business. I graduated school in North Carolina. I'm from North Carolina. And I moved to Washington, D.C. in 2014. I think pretty naively thinking that I could just pick up my design business and move to a different city and be totally fine and successful. Like, so naive. And it ended up being a lot harder than I thought to transition and get clients in a new city while I was learning a new city at the same time. And so I really, in those times, still leaned on the blog very heavily as not only an additional revenue stream, but just kind of a creative outlet. And as I got more established in D.C. and hired people and was able to kind of expand my clientele, I moved away from the blog and then I took it off of the website completely a couple years later and then didn't have anything like that for a few years. And so coming back around last year to substack, it really felt like I was kind of going back to my roots a little bit.
- [09:22]
A
Yeah.
- [09:23]
B
And exactly what you said. I Did miss writing. I missed this kind of creative outlet that wasn't. I'm sure you can relate to this. Some days it feels like the only writing we do is emails to clients. Just like endless, endless emails forever and ever until we die. And then that's it.
- [09:41]
A
Texts, emails. Yep. So much communication that kind of means nothing.
- [09:45]
B
Yeah, exactly. And everything is an emergency, like level 100. And so it's all the time. And so it's really nice to kind of back that off and just write about things that I feel like writing about. And it's a really small community. I don't have that many followers. And so I would say it's just as much for me as it is for maybe the people who are reading it.
- [10:05]
A
I love that.
- [10:06]
B
But yeah, for me, it's been really great and really fun to write.
- [10:09]
A
As a reader, I feel like you can tell that you like doing it, which makes it more fun to read, in my opinion. I think that there, there are some people who are writing substacks. They're good writers, but because that's like the next thing in the marketing funnel and it feels like that's not what you are doing with it. It's more like you have thoughts and ideas and I find it so inspiring. I love it and I love this. Thank you. Return to writing in general. I'm hopeful also that it might be a shift to tangible press rather than this, like, you know, massive social media lift. More towards really, like, thoughtful, well done articles about homes that have been lovingly restored. Like, I'm hopeful that we're swinging back to that. And substack is a sign of that at least. Maybe I'm like manifesting right now. Maybe that's what I've been using.
- [11:04]
B
I hope this is true.
- [11:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, with TikTok going away, I think it's becoming clear that we can't rely on those things. And so it's like, you know, there's all of these marketing buckets that you try to do a couple of them. So in just one hits, you know, you've got your bases covered. But I think it's really interesting also because Substack can't be taken away from you. It's yours. You know, you're able to write what you want to write and tell people what you want to tell them from your point of view, which I think has got to be empowering.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah, that's so true. And this, in this day and age, we can't do everything. We can't be super successful and Viral on all of these platforms?
- [11:46]
A
No.
- [11:46]
B
It's just exhausting, overwhelming, and not possible. And so picking the things that we feel the most comfortable with, I think is what's going to give us the most staying power as well. Because you can burn out really, really easily in this job when you have to be a designer and a therapist and a social media marketer and, you know, a boss, all of these other things that in order to be sustainable and really stick with the things that we are good at, we have to find out which one of those things we enjoy doing the most.
- [12:17]
A
I think you hit the nail on the head and said it way better than my, like, befuddled things I was trying to say. But I completely agree with you. It's how I feel about this podcast. Like, I walk away from every episode being like, wow, that was so cool. I got to talk to that person and connect with them. So even from, like, a selfish perspective, it's been these sort of, like, side businesses that we all start with the intention of just a creative outlet. I think it can really turn into something bigger than we thought, which is encouraging and cool.
- [12:45]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And yeah, with the podcast, I mean, the world needs design podcast, and this is something that you're very good at.
- [12:52]
A
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
- [12:54]
B
I enjoy listening and it's needed.
- [12:57]
A
So sweet. I more so just felt like I couldn't handle someone else telling me how they got super successful. Like, I needed some real in this industry. I mean, I love those podcasts too, don't get me wrong. But I think there's so much of talking to people once they've made it, and not a lot of talking to people who are, like, in the thick of it at that moment. I find that so much more interesting as someone who's also in the thick of it. And that's the feedback we've been getting that it's nice to not hear, like, this perfectionism and this like, oh, I did it. And here's how. More so just like a community, which I think is what we're trying to do here. Okay, so before we get to the confessions, which I'm excited about, what is a vice you partake in?
- [13:49]
B
Oh, gosh, that is a good question. Other than just, like, the boring answers of, like, way too much TV and, like, sour candy. I mean, same. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is, like, an alarming thing to say, or maybe I'm, like, having a realization here on the podcast that I. I find my, like, Needing, not needing. Let's back it up. Wanting that crispy martini now at the end of a workday more than ever.
- [14:21]
A
Yeah.
- [14:21]
B
Not to, like, a worrying place. This doesn't need to be an intervention at this point. You can have me back on in a couple of months, maybe.
- [14:30]
A
Trust me, there is. That is so. I mean, I completely get it. I don't drink anymore, but when I did. God, a martini is just so classic, and you feel so chic, but also is a good amount of alcohol to really be able to, like, give you that chilled feel. I mean, I am a gardener, we'll say, and so I partake in that instead. And it's the same thing. I mean, when I get home, I'm like, give my bath and a bouquet and I will be good to go. Maybe that's also worrying. But there is something to be said for, like, a routine and just something that, like, signals that you're transitioning into home life and you're able to sort of step away from work. At least for me. I need kind of, like, those rituals to be able to transition.
- [15:21]
B
Yeah. I think that's a fantastic way to put it, because a lot of this job and for me, I work from home. And so having that, like, break of, like, okay, work, now I can relax. It's not even every day. Some weeks, it's not even every week that I do this. But that's a much better way to put it. Of this, like, signal to my brain of, like, oh, okay, this is relaxation time. And here's how I can transition into that. And that's just what, like, sometimes as an adult, I remember that I have free will, and I'm like, oh, my God, I can go make a martini. I can go have a really good martini on my couch, and it will be delicious.
- [15:55]
A
I love remembering I have free will at 30 years old. I'm like, what did I. Hello? No, it's really true. I also think that in. Maybe someone who's sober would say, this is a problem. But for me, my anxiety is so intense, and I'm like, you know, even on meds. But I. I can't just tell myself, okay, work's over. Time to move on. No, like, my brain will continue to spiral and to think and to really harp on it, and then you realize you didn't have any real rest. And then the next day, I'll feel way worse than I did before, whereas the problem's gonna be there the next day, whether you spiral out about it that night or not. So something that can Signal to our brains and ourselves. Like, okay, it's time to transition. Even though you work from home or, you know, that's why I have a work phone, because that's the other thing. I can put my work phone away and be like, okay, 7pm this is transition time. And we will re enter all the things tomorrow morning. And it is, like, I think the only thing that's kept me from fully burning out.
- [17:02]
B
Yeah. And it's so funny because the question that you asked is, like, what is your vice? And these things that we're talking about, I don't even actually see them as vices.
- [17:10]
A
It's a tool for me.
- [17:11]
B
Yeah. Whether that is me putting on soft pants and turning on the TV and, like, sitting on the couch and turning off work, like, if that's a vice, then I don't ever want to stop it. Like, give me a pump it into my van.
- [17:22]
A
How many advice is if that's a vice? I think when we were thinking about that, it just was funny to me because I grew up Catholic and so venial and mortal sins and like, everything that could be seen as, like, seeking outside of yourself is a vice. When I completely agree with you, I actually think, what are we doing here? Like, what's the point of living on this earth then? To be able to work really hard and then have, like, you know, there's gotta be a way to blow off steam in order to keep going at the rate we're going. And I think we're all just finding what works for us. Well, Shannon, are you ready to hear confession?
- [18:09]
B
I am so ready.
- [18:12]
A
Let's do it. When I first walked into the 4,500 square foot blank canvas that was what I refer to now as the Regret residence, I thought, this will be good. High ceilings, expansive windows, and a budget that whispered, dream big. The client nodded eagerly to my vision. Custom everything. Furniture, lighting, fabrics. I trust you completely, she said, her smile almost convincing. Weeks became months of approvals and sign offs. Every piece was tailored to her specifications, yet every delivery sparked a new wave of disdain. This isn't the shade of green I approved. She'd sneer at the dining chair she had personally selected from Swatches. Why is the chandelier so shandy? Her vocabulary for complaints grew more creative than her willingness to communicate them before it was too late. Which we have also had a client where they just seem to hate every single thing that came in, and it's only ever happened one time. But you really do get to the point where you're like, should I Just cancel all the deliveries because you're gonna hate it before it even delivers. Cause it feels like you were dedicated to hating it at this point. So I do feel this person's pain because, oh, there's nothing worse. Okay. I kept receipts, literal and figurative. She approved the velvet for the sofa, the hand blown glass pendants, even the exact millwork for the custom shelving. Every time she hated something, I'd show her the sign proposal. She'd huff, well, it looked different on paper. The final blow came when I unveiled the completed space. To me, it was a symphony of texture and light. To her, a monstrosity. She threatened to sue before the final walkthrough was even over. Quote, you ruined my dream home. She spat, standing beneath the bespoke Italian chandelier she once called divine. Now her lawyers send me emails with phrases like emotional distress and incompetence. My stomach churns every time I hear the pang of a new message. I've consulted with my own attorney, who assures me that the signed contracts are airtight. Still, the house looms in my mind like a mausoleum of regret. A place where dreams go to die and lawsuits are born. The worst part, I drove by the house last week. Through the towering windows, I caught a glimpse of the living room just as I designed it. She hadn't changed a thing. I really feel for this person. Oh my God. Also, their writing. Incredible. Like, we need to. They need to write and write a book or something. Because that was.
- [20:50]
B
I want to know what happens. Like, I need to read the rest of the. Every chapter. Please keep on going. Please, please write. I'm sorry to her for this experience. I'm really sorry for what you did.
- [20:59]
A
Thanks for writing in because it was great. The bottom line is there are just some people that are bad people. You run into people occasionally where you're just like, how have they gotten through life this way? Like, they actually just are a bad person. There's no redeeming quality. There's nothing to look for. And some people are miserable in their own lives. And we've said this before, when you're unhappy, build a house or have a baby. And so I do think that sometime there is a certain subset of people who are coming to us when they're feeling some sort of lack. And so I think that can then turn into our problem because it didn't fill their hole. It didn't fill that lack for them like they thought it would. And so then we're turned on. Even if we fulfilled everything we promised to fulfill, it didn't fulfill them personally. So it's our fault. And you can't. I mean, there's no, no winning with a person like that. Unfortunately.
- [22:02]
B
No. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. This is like, it's almost prescriptive. Like these people who are bad actors, you can see them from a mile away. You hope. And you enter into a project thinking, okay, well, maybe this one won't be like that. But we are trained and with experience now to recognize those red flags.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah.
- [22:21]
B
Still sometimes we hope that they're not going to happen.
- [22:23]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. And sometimes you have to take the work. Even if you're like, it could be 50, 50, you have to. And then you end up in a situation like this. Yeah, absolutely.
- [22:33]
B
Yeah. And I do think, I mean, I think you're spot on. I think these people look to. Maybe there are other things going on in their life and they're looking to problem solve and they think, oh, whole new house, new me. Like this will change everything.
- [22:46]
A
Exactly.
- [22:47]
B
And they won't let it happen. From the very beginning. Like, this woman sounds like she, or I don't know if she said woman, I'm jumping the gun there.
- [22:53]
A
This person, I think it's a woman. Yeah.
- [22:56]
B
Okay. Didn't want to project there, but I think she seems like she was never going to let this be a success from the get go. Like, this was the plan. And sometimes, sometimes I wonder this. I was having a conversation with a girlfriend of mine recently who's also a designer. We were just joking and saying like, oh, sometimes I think people are just looking for something to do. They're looking for drama in their life and they think I'm going to hire a designer and really just like fuck some things up like this. I really feel like I need some. Something to create chaos, to air quote, solve some problems or whatever it is, occupy their time, whatever it may be. I think there are some agents of chaos out there.
- [23:41]
A
I think you are absolutely correct. I also think new apartment, new me. It's just to the nth degree because it's with an insane amount of money. So it's like the stakes are almost higher. But it is strange that these, like grown adults, they do seem to think that if they change their environment, it will change their insides. And unfortunately that's not how that works. I wish it was because that would, I could, I could solve the world's problems if I could just give everyone a beautiful home. But I mean, there are so many miserable millionaires in homes that like regular people would kill for and they have one thing out of place, so everything's ruined.
- [24:30]
B
I just feel for the designer. I feel bad for her.
- [24:32]
A
I know, I know. I do too. I also think when lawyers send a letter but there is no end goal, they're not telling you what they want from you. They're just trying to scare you. I would say that's when you can probably just ignore them. If they have a case, they'll come after you if they can. But I wouldn't let emotional distress and incompetence worry you, especially if you have an airtight contract. Some people are just crazy and would rather like, pay their attorney to threaten people than to communicate directly and have to deal with things one on one. So I think if you can try not to let it keep you awake at night because it's an easy thing to do. For sure.
- [25:14]
B
Totally.
- [25:16]
A
Penance. I think that the client deserves the penance. But also penance for the designer is probably a vacation. Like, I think that she should maybe take a week off, maybe a solo vacation even. It would be nice to go to a place where someone else is catering to you and taking care of you. And maybe something that's like inspiring from a design perspective. Cause I know after clients like, this is when I feel my highest burnout and when I want to be done. Like, I can't. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't like this. It's those clients that really remind you of sort of that piece of it. So I think sometimes taking time to take a deep breath and remind yourself why you do actually like this job could be helpful.
- [26:03]
B
Totally. Somewhere that's like self affirming. Somewhere where you feel like you're reminded of why. Like you said, why you do this. Maybe somewhere creative, somewhere relaxing for sure. But you can, like, and I'm sure you've felt like this in some projects before. Like, even if you're confident that, like your contract is like airtight, that doubt can like creep in.
- [26:25]
A
Absolutely.
- [26:27]
B
And you can still have those questions and be like, well, what if the chandelier actually is ugly? Or like, what if these chairs are awful? Or what if I was wrong with the paint color or whatever.
- [26:37]
A
Yeah.
- [26:37]
B
So somewhere where the designer can just, you know, replenish that mind because it's needed.
- [26:44]
A
That's a great way to put it. I completely agree. I think that it's easy to spiral out on things like that, for sure. And so trying to remind yourself you are good at this and not every client is like this, I think would be helpful so true. And that client deserves so many things. You know what? I think she's probably already living the life she deserves. Confession number two, like always, the names have been changed to protect the innocent. And not so innocent. When I first met Ashley, she was all smiles and designer handbags, her enthusiasm spilling out as she walked me through the sun drenched 5,000 square foot shell of what she called her forever home. It was love at first client. And the best part. She beamed. My best friend Noah is the contractor. Noah arrived moments later. Which, first of all, can I say that these names kind of sound like we're reading, like a romance novel, but I'm gonna go with it. This is like a Noah Just makes me think of the notebook. Exactly. Okay. Noah arrived moments later, exuding that easy confidence contractors seem to be born with. That's funny. He was charming, quick with a joke, and wore his tool belt like it was part of a designer outfit. Okay. From the start, Ashley treated him like the golden boy, lavishing him with compliments about how he always came through for her. That sounds like some foreshadowing.
- [28:22]
B
This is a different kind of story.
- [28:24]
A
Yeah, right. I know. I'm like, are we reading a wattpad? Like what?
- [28:28]
B
Yeah.
- [28:29]
A
Okay. The project began smoothly enough. I selected bold, timeless pieces for the space, layering text and colors to make every corner sing. Noah's team brought my designs to life with stunning precision. Ashley, meanwhile, flitted in and out, calling us her quote, dream team. Then came the late night meetings. It started innocently. An urgent text from Noah about a supply issue that couldn't wait until morning. Like who? What supply issue can't wait until morning? How are you going to solve that? If everything's okay? Sure, sure. Mind meeting me at the house? He asked. I went of. Professionals don't let projects stall, which I. I can appreciate that. That meeting turned into a series of late night rendezvous. At first, we discussed tile delays and paint samples, but the air grew thicker with every encounter. I told myself it was just the intensity of the project, the pressure of delivering Ashley's dream. But when Noah leaned across the unfinished kitchen island one night, his hand grazing mine, it was clear we'd crossed a line. It wasn't long before those meetings stopped being about work. The house took on a different energy. Every room bore traces of secrets shared. A misaligned sconce became an inside joke. The new herringbone floors became playground for whispered confessions. All the while, Ashley remained blissfully unaware, treating us both like extensions of her flawless vision. But secrets don't stay buried, especially in A house full of open spaces. Ashley walked in one day early, catching Noah and me mid laugh, mid touch. Her eyes darted between us, and the silence was deafening. You think I don't see what's going on? She said, her voice sharp enough to cut the air. This house isn't big enough for your little affair. The project wrapped in record time. Ashley's text turned curt, and Noah and I avoided eye contact on site. When I handed her the final invoice, she paid it without a word, her smile a weapon. Months later, my friend told me she had driven by and saw a for sale sign in the yard. Some spaces, it turns out, are too haunted to live in.
- [30:39]
B
Ooh. Okay.
- [30:41]
A
Very juicy.
- [30:43]
B
That's straight out of a romance novel.
- [30:45]
A
Yeah, I think so too.
- [30:47]
B
So, okay, let me get this straight. Noah and Ashley are just friends. Right. They're not a couple that we know of. Right.
- [30:55]
A
They are. Yes, correct.
- [30:57]
B
Friends. They are friendly.
- [30:59]
A
Sure. It also. Is Ashley single? That's my other question. Because I feel like if Ashley's, like, married and he's not, that that still should have happened, but I feel like it is a little bit like, if Ashley has a crush on him or like, they're, like, best friends, that feels especially heinous. We're not an svu. But that feels especially like. Like a betrayal, you know? Like, I think that would be a little bit worse. I don't know. I'm trying to think of, like, if a client. Like, I think my clients. If they thought the contractor and I were flirting and they were married and, like, you know, weren't friends with him, they might be, like, I don't think they would care. Like, I don't think the flirting with the contractor is as big of a deal. I would never. I could never. Those men, not for me. I feel like I do. You know, I mean, we have one especially hot contractor in one of our jobs that's not in Chicago. And, I mean, I think our client would understand.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah, they have eyeballs.
- [32:16]
A
Yeah.
- [32:20]
B
That. That's wild, because it would almost be like if she had. If this designer had brought Noah to the project.
- [32:26]
A
Yeah.
- [32:26]
B
And they were, like, flirting and, like, making eyes at each other, like, exchanging covert touches or whatever, and the client discovered them. It'd be like, okay, this is weird. Like, why? I've just hired this, like, couple who's just, like, really weird in public. Right. Like, why can't they just go do this, like, at home or wherever? Like, go.
- [32:45]
A
Yes.
- [32:45]
B
Go for it. But, like, not here in my house, Not.
- [32:48]
A
Not on my project. Not on my dime.
- [32:51]
B
Right, Right. Good for you. But, like, can we be professional?
- [32:55]
A
I don't.
- [32:56]
B
I don't. There's, like, a weird. There's clearly something between the homeowner and the contractor. Whether it's reciprocated is, I guess, the question there. And you're right, too. If she's married, like, that's another level.
- [33:11]
A
She said, my best friend. I don't have any girlfriends who would call a straight male their best friend, for sure. I just don't, like. I also think I'm, like, more of a girls girl, so my friends are too. Like, that's just not really. I feel like people like, girl, pick me. Girls in high school were like, my best friend on the baseball team.
- [33:33]
B
Right.
- [33:34]
A
For the client to say my best friend to me, if the client is not married, I immediately would have thought, oh, there's some.
- [33:41]
B
Something.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah, there's some history there that I'm not aware of, because that's just kind of a weird thing to say.
- [33:49]
B
And if it was. If they were, like, legitimately friendly, I mean. But I totally agree with you. Best friend is, like, an audacious thing to say about a straight man. If they're, like, friendly, like, why wouldn't you want your friend to meet somebody, be happy, like, make a connection with someone else? Like, there's. There's something here that's preventing this friend.
- [34:12]
A
I think so, too, from doing what.
- [34:14]
B
He wants to do.
- [34:15]
A
It also sounds like she wouldn't have sold the house if he was just, like, one of her husband's friends. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's some. Like, I think that it feels more like there was a betrayal to her. Like, she wasn't mad that they were doing it in the house. She's mad that they're having an affair, period.
- [34:36]
B
Yeah.
- [34:36]
A
I feel like a normal person would be like, you're doing this when you're supposed to be working for me. That's not okay. But to your point, they wouldn't care if, like, the contractor asked the designer out for dinner when the project's over or, like, I think there's ways to do it. It feels very risky. Like, if I were the designer, I would not want. Like, I would feel so uncomfortable that someone was flirting with me when I was supposed to be working.
- [35:08]
B
Totally.
- [35:09]
A
In general, Like, I would feel not comfortable with that because, like, we're both professionals. This is not the time or the place. So I find it interesting that she, like, responded well to that.
- [35:23]
B
There's got to be more to it. There's got to be another.
- [35:25]
A
Yeah.
- [35:25]
B
Layer. Because you're absolutely right. I would. I would never. I just simply would never. I'd be like, look, we can talk about this later. If this is, like, a legitimate connection, we can go to dinner and, like, talk about this. We're not going to do it here. Like, this is work. We're going to separate this. But it almost seems like this was like, some sort of, like, role play or something between Ashley and Noah, and it went horribly wrong when the designer, like, came into the picture, like, oh, this wasn't supposed to happen. Like this. Something else.
- [35:57]
A
I think you're right about that. I think, like, maybe Ashley was hiring Noah because she thought they would be sort of, like, spending so much time together that they end up together, but it turned out to be the designer instead. That's. But also, I feel like our clients, we know so much about them. If I had a single female client that was hiring a hot contractor who was her best friend, I think I would know. I think the client would have been like, we have some history. Something. Because you're working. Working too closely with these people for you to not catch a vibe that way. Unless you just, like, have no awareness, I think.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah. So you would never want to, like, cross that line as the designer if you thought there was something going on.
- [36:44]
A
Right. I mean, that would be the last thing that you would want.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. Could you imagine, like, getting in the middle of. That's a way to get fired from a job.
- [36:52]
A
Well, and then imagine I just. You work so hard, like, if you own your own firm, as we know, like, you work so hard, your reputation is everything. Like, I have killed myself for people who did not deserve it to keep my reputation intact. So for it to be something like this superfluous is strange to me.
- [37:14]
B
It's also a very weird way, as Ashley the homeowner, to try to, like. I don't want to say catch a man, but, like, ask him out on a date. Girl. Like, don't. You don't have to, like, hire him to renovate your house to do this.
- [37:28]
A
You're spending a lot of money to get a date with this random man who's supposedly your best friend.
- [37:33]
B
Right.
- [37:34]
A
Yeah. I agree with you. It would be a lot cheaper just to ask him out than to try to do a whole renovation. Also, most of the time, I wouldn't say that the client contractor relationship is like, one that's breeding romance. It's just not like there's a power dynamic at play because you're paying their Bills. But then there's also, like, it's so personal because they're working on your home. Like, there's so much there. And I feel like I would think it would make my, like, best friend relationship worse, not better. Like, I wouldn't. I would want to be able to tell someone, this needs to be done by X date or we're going to have a problem. And if you're trying to date your contractor, you can't really do that.
- [38:24]
B
Right. I mean, that's why they always say, like, don't. As designers. Like, don't ever work for. No matter how much they ask. Ask your friends.
- [38:32]
A
Yes.
- [38:32]
B
If they're like, please hire. Let me hire you. Like, the answer is always no. It is never a good idea. It's the same thing here. Because how are you going to be like, you know, get in here and fix this, like, broken pipe that is leaking or I'm not going to pay you if it's.
- [38:47]
A
If they're your best friend. Yeah.
- [38:49]
B
Right. It doesn't make sense.
- [38:50]
A
I completely agree. It's. Yeah. The. The power dynamic gets very skewed and I. I'm just thinking about our contractors and our clients and it would just. Just never happened. It just never happened. So I don't know.
- [39:03]
B
It's a really odd setup. It's kind of like a kid. Like a child has imagined this. Like, this is how adults find romance, is they buy a house. Like a woman buys a house and she hires a hot male contractor and he comes over and like a hot contractor belt and he pulls out a drill and he's like, I'm here to fix your bites or whatever. Exactly.
- [39:24]
A
It's like the setup for a bad porno. I don't like. It's not. Oh, my God. I do think she probably watched the Notebook one too many times and she was like, he's gonna build my house and fall in love with me. And unfortunately, that's not how it works.
- [39:41]
B
You guys are not gonna die in a bed together in 90 years. Like, this is.
- [39:46]
A
I'm so sorry to tell you it's not gonna happen. Oh, my God. I also like what a badass she is to be able to renovate her dream home if it's like just her and she. Or not just her dream home, her forever home. I think it's interesting to be designing a 5,000 square foot forever home for just her because that feels like, pretty involved and like massive for just one person. Which not shaming that it more so seems like she was hoping someone would move in to this dream forever home.
- [40:24]
B
They build it, they will come. He just happens to be the handyman.
- [40:31]
A
Exactly. It's just. And I mean, I do tell my team all the time. I was like, maybe I'll marry a contractor. So that way I can just do whatever I want. I can be like, okay, so you have to do X, Y, z. But it's like the cobbler's children has no shoes. You don't actually ever get anything done because they're doing a thousand other things. I have a friend who's dating a chef. I think he's made her one meal in their entire relationship because he's always doing that for work. So I actually don't know that that would benefit me as much as I think it would.
- [41:03]
B
Yeah, she was a girl with a plan. It just maybe wasn't, like, the right.
- [41:06]
A
Plan, the best plan.
- [41:08]
B
It wasn't the best plan. She had a plan, but it wasn't the best.
- [41:11]
A
It wasn't great. Oh, my God. Okay, so we will give this designer some penance. I have a couple of thoughts. I think anytime that she ever gets a job and the contractor is even remotely attractive, she has to turn it down and she can't tell them why.
- [41:27]
B
Okay. Just immediately, like, turn and walk away.
- [41:30]
A
And not say, I think she has to be like, sorry, I have to remove myself from this project. He's too hot.
- [41:40]
B
That is amazing. Honestly, that's pretty valid. That's pretty fair.
- [41:45]
A
I don't know how. How we enforce that exactly, but, you.
- [41:49]
B
Know, they should make a printout of, like, hot contractors holding up to their face and like, every. No, you're passed. No, you don't pass.
- [41:58]
A
Gotta go.
- [41:59]
B
You gotta get out. It's her hot contractor bible.
- [42:04]
A
It's only fair. Oh, my God. I also think maybe she could, like, volunteer or do something for some karma. I'm not gonna, like, wax poetic about exactly what I was gonna say. Volunteer, like a women's shelter or something that, like, you know, women helping each other. Because I think that could have been the other way that this job went was that the two women really, like, banded together and had an amazing project. And it's sad that it went so far the opposite way, in my opinion. So maybe in some way, like, giving back to other women could be helpful too.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah, I think that's perfect. Because at the end of the day, like, what was this all for? You kind of made yourself look very unprofessional for no reason. For what? For what? For a man.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah. What was the goal? What was the win? Because it doesn't sound like she ended up with the contractor.
- [43:01]
B
Right, right. That wasn't included in the story. I feel like it would have been included as well if that was the end result.
- [43:06]
A
Yeah. Because what is it like? Sorry, a tangent. Adhd. But you know the idea that like if you cheat, if you stay with the partner you cheated with, people will forgive you. I feel like it's a similar thing. Like if you were to end up with the person that you did the wrong thing with, people kind of have to be like, oh, well, guess it was for love. So we can't be that mad. So I do think we would have found out if that was the case because it makes it sound a little better.
- [43:34]
B
Totally. Of course they acted unprofessionally. They were in love, they couldn't help it. Like it was a chance meeting. Like all of these things, sometimes it's.
- [43:41]
A
Love's just too strong. Yeah, exactly. But if it doesn't work out, then you're just like, well, shit, I did all of that for nothing.
- [43:48]
B
Nothing.
- [43:49]
A
Any additional penance or should we go to questions?
- [43:52]
B
I think your first suggestion of not being able to take a job where there are good looking contractors on is great penance and then putting some of that karma back out there. Now I think that's good. Good, Good.
- [44:08]
A
Question number one is I seem to have a turnover problem in my firm. How can I get employees to stay?
- [44:17]
B
Hmm, age old question. That's a tough one because there's like a linear path as to why an employee would not want to stay. I'm sure you've been in jobs where there's a very specific reason from the get go. Or maybe it makes itself known pretty.
- [44:33]
A
Quickly after taking that job couple months in. Yep.
- [44:36]
B
Yeah. And it usually just boils down to money or the kind of atmosphere. Is it toxic? Is it a place where you want to spend time? Do you feel fulfilled? I guess could be the third thing, that kind of creative element. So if one of those three things is out of whack or two of those three things, or, you know, we all put up with a little bit of something thing.
- [44:57]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [44:58]
B
There has to be a balance, I think. But it's like there's a scale that I use to determine what projects I should take on. And I heard this years ago and it was, you know, Emily Henderson, the designer.
- [45:12]
A
Emily Henderson.
- [45:13]
B
I went to an HGTV event in like 2015 and she was speaking and she said this thing that has stuck with me for almost 10 years now that I feel like Kind of applies to, to this situation. And it's, you know, when someone reaches out to you as a potential client, like, how do you decide what if you should take that job or not?
- [45:32]
A
Oh, my God. It's so funny you're saying this because I literally just said this on the episode that's coming out on Wednesday. I drew this. Keep going. But we're gonna have the same exact thing. That is crazy.
- [45:41]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, we don't have to, like, talk about it. No, no, no, no.
- [45:45]
A
Please, please, please. I just think it's so funny because Gracie and I are looking at each other like, yep, we do the same thing.
- [45:51]
B
It's hard. And I think it doesn't. Like, yes, we develop skills that over time we're like, okay, maybe this is a person who has fewer red flags or feels like a better fit from the get go. Those are skills that you hone over time. But if you're still questioning it, she basically said there are three things that every project has, and in order to take that on, you should have two of the three things. And those three things are money. Like, it's just got to pay the bills. Like, straight up. This is why we have jobs. That's what it's for, paying the bills. The second is, is it creative? Does it fulfill some sort of creative itch that you have? Does it make you just feel fulfilled creatively? And then the third thing is, is it good for your portfolio? Like, is it going to be a portfolio banger? Are you. Does it really aligned with your style? Are you going to be able to go in there and photograph it and really turn it into future clients who are similar? And so two out of three is fine. Doesn't have to have all three. Like that so rarely happens. Happens. I feel like that's the case with this too. As an employee, you have to kind of evaluate, am I okay with doing this? Am I okay with doing this creatively? Am I okay with doing this for the time being to kind of launch into something different, better, more high paying in an area, you know, all of those things that you have to consider when you take a job. So I feel like it applies to that as employees as well.
- [47:10]
A
I completely agree. We say people pay place. There has to be two out of three. Yeah. And I'll speak because I have employees. And something I hold very dear is that everyone who's ever been a full time employee is still a full time employee. And it is not because I pay them the most out of, like, all of the firms in Chicago. But I really do try so hard to give them autonomy both in their schedules and in their projects and, and flexibility. I mean, we have unlimited pto. We work from home on Mondays. We have summer Fridays during the summer. So I really tried to give them other perks that are not the money because to your point, I can't pay them as much as, like a big commercial firm could, but I can give them a much better work life balance. They like coming to work. You know, our team, we're all friends. Like, I pay for their lunch every day. Like, there are things that, that make them feel valued daily. And I think that is super important because as someone who bopped around early in my career a lot to make more money, it was often not always the best decision because I went to, you know, the grass is not always greener. An extra 5k doesn't make up for you being miserable every single day of your life.
- [48:33]
B
Totally.
- [48:34]
A
And so I think that if you can focus on giving your employees a lot of value outside of money, or if you can provide, you know, a great salary, do that. And then you're able to be a little bit more flexible in one of the other things. But I found that people care more about flexible schedules. If one of the girls is sick or something bad happens or whatever, there's no, like, they're not worried about calling me to tell me they can't come. Like, we're all human. They know that. And so it just makes it to where, like, this job is not their entire life. And I don't expect it to be. Which I think makes it easier to stay.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's so true. And that is just if you think about what kind of boss you would want to have in their position, it's just as easy as doing those things that you would want to be done.
- [49:26]
A
Yep, I think that's exactly it.
- [49:28]
B
And those things aren't that crazy.
- [49:29]
A
They're really not.
- [49:30]
B
If you are hiring people who are, have a good work ethic or are totally reasonable, I mean, they're not going to be expecting to like, work two hours a week and be paid full time. But I think things that employees are looking for are totally reasonable and those things can be. Can be done. Especially in, like, this era.
- [49:48]
A
Yes.
- [49:48]
B
It's not like the office culture that our parents, like, grew up in and tried to succeed in and that sort of thing we don't have to do. We can be the ones who break that cycle for our.
- [49:59]
A
Absolutely. Cause for what? Like, why are we forcing this archaic way of working. I really do think that my employees are the backbone of my business. If they all walked away tomorrow, I'd be fucked. And I know that. And so I think, you know, letting them have some ownership over that often, like, Gracie, who's sitting across from me, just had pneumonia, and she was like, I wanna come back to work. I wanna come back to work. I'm like, you have. Have pneumonia. You have to rest. Like, they're asking me, please, please, please, can I come back? Because they have ownership over this. Like, they have projects to run. They want. They like what they're doing, and they want to keep doing this job, which, you know, is like, the best thing I could ever ask for. I'm not the one saying, you need to come back to work. They're the ones that are like, I, you know, making sure they're getting everything done. So to your point, I think it's a bit of, like, leading by example. Like, I know that during the day I can be a little bit all over the place, but if I come back in the next morning with all of my work done, even if they didn't see the exact moment I did it, that's all I care about from them, is them doing their work. You know, by the time we all discussed it and it being correct and that's all they need from me. So giving each other, like, a little bit of a break in that way, I think, goes a long way. For sure.
- [51:18]
B
Yeah. And I do things a little bit differently, too, because we are. I've cycled all of our services essentially, to virtual services, so.
- [51:28]
A
Oh, wow.
- [51:28]
B
We are not doing, like, full service in person renovations anymore. This was a thing that was started kind of in 2020 when the pandemic was, you know, we all had to just kind of adjust day by day, and it's something that has stuck. And I've just really leaned into and honed those virtual digital offerings. And so I work remotely. From the two girls who work with me, I'm in dc, One of them is in la, the other one is in New York City. So we all work remotely. And this kind of stems from just being a complete introvert and, like, really enjoying that side of things, but also understanding that things can be done, things can be accomplished if we have, like, due dates and times that things are due. Do the work whenever you want to, whenever you can. You know, here's when this is due to the client. Here's when this thing is due to me. Work on it at your own time. So kind of being flexible on that side of things, you can still be really productive too.
- [52:22]
A
Absolutely.
- [52:23]
B
And just knowing that, like, I don't need to be. I mean, the old age old phrase of like hiring for your weaknesses, it gives those employees their own agency, like you were saying to your point.
- [52:33]
A
Absolutely.
- [52:34]
B
They feel like they are well equipped to come into work and handle exactly what they're there to do and they are bringing something to the table and that makes them feel more fulfilled too. So everybody has kind of a part in the society.
- [52:46]
A
And I think letting your employees know that they are necessary and you do, you know, they are valuable to this business. And it's something that I talk all the time with them about growth and like, where do they want to be in five years? Is it their own firm? Is it higher up in our firm? Like, we're always making sure that they're fulfilled enough that every day they can go home and say, okay, you know, I can put my head on my pillow. I did a great job today and tomorrow I'll be back at it. But not from like a. Because Caroline told me it has to be done by 9am because they have their own driving force, which I think is definitely a strong suit and something I look for when we're hiring because that is how we work. And so I need people who are self starters and are really gonna like, look for things that need to be done rather than relying on me to tell them everything. Okay, last question. How do I successfully fire a client?
- [53:44]
B
Oof.
- [53:46]
A
So hard. It is so hard.
- [53:47]
B
I don't know. Please tell me. Please tell me.
- [53:52]
A
If anyone knows.
- [53:53]
B
Write it. Yeah, please send us your answers. We'll be accepting them.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah. Cause I don't know. I mean, I. It's so hard. Especially because the ones that you're typically trying to fire are the ones that like refuse to be fired.
- [54:06]
B
Yeah, right. Or they push you to a point where all other communication has been so difficult that a path forward is not possible. And so there needs to be a way out of it. And if you have tried everything, as I think most designers have, because nobody goes into a project thinking that this could happen or wants this to happen. So we as designers are the ones who are sacrificing ourselves to make things work more often than not.
- [54:29]
A
Absolutely.
- [54:29]
B
So if it's gotten to that point, it's like past the point of no return usually. Gosh, I don't know. I feel like this one really depends on the type of client. Definitely themselves, their communication style, what they're actually upset about. But one of the Things that I think just as like women, but also business owners that we have learned over the years is that no is a complete sentence.
- [54:54]
A
Sentence. Love it. Yep.
- [54:56]
B
We don't need to go into the reasons why this project is not progressing like, it's stopping. This is the end. Short and concise. I think it's the best way to go in those situations. You're never going to, like, reason with them in that stage.
- [55:10]
A
No, no. Especially because I've never needed to fire a client that could be reasoned with, because if they could, we wouldn't be here. So I think that is. It's just you're naturally already dealing with, like, a pretty difficult subset when we're talking about this problem of firing a client. I have had the experience where we fired a client and then they turned around and were like, well, we were about to fire you first. Okay, totally fine. Glad we're on the same page. You know, like, I feel like it's so. To your point.
- [55:45]
B
So you agree we're not a good fit.
- [55:46]
A
Yeah, we're not a good fit. And we're gonna go. I think that in my experience, sometimes people don't even realize how difficult or horrible they're being. And so getting an email that's like, we cannot work with. You can sometimes then be like, oh, my God, I'm sorry, I'll be better. Blah, blah, blah, blah, Bl. And I think that's, like, then a decision that, you know, as a designer, you have to make. Sometimes it's worth just finishing the job to not have to deal with them because they will be more of an issue not finishing it than finishing it. If it's like 80%, which this has happened where we needed the project to be done, the client could not make decisions. So I sent our team to style, and we, like, finished as much as we could. And then we were like, and we're done. Done. Goodbye. And it salvaged the whole job. Like, they were happy because the girls, you know, finished the home in their eyes, not in our eyes. Like, we'll never photograph it, but it at least didn't feel like they were being left out to dry. Like they. They didn't have any other options. Because I think that is when people get really squirrely, is when they feel like even if you're completely in the right to fire them, it can still be a difficult. Yeah. A difficult process if. Especially if they're in the middle of construction. The other piece of this is making sure that your contract has a clause in there that allows you to fire Clients because we have a clause. But we realized a couple of, you know, years ago that the clause really was more so protecting the clients, not protecting us. So we needed to have a clause that essentially says, like, for any bad behavior, anything that CTI deems unacceptable, you yell at my team, we're done. Like, we don't know. We don't accept. I'm not okay with that. So we had to add what I call an asshole clause. That's like, if you're gonna be an asshole and I get to decide what an asshole is, we. No consequences, we keep your retainer, and we're done. Which, to be clear, since we added that to the contract, we've never had to.
- [57:59]
B
Oh, that's amazing. So it works.
- [58:01]
A
And I hope we won't have to because of the clause. Right. I think that sometimes just putting it in writing, like, hey, I've seen this before. I'm experienced. You can't pull a fast one on me or you're not gonna be able to do this to me. I think that helps and also makes you feel, like, a little empowered. But it keeps people in line where, like, okay, if I'm gonna be an asshole, I could get fired at any point, and she's legally allowed to do that. So then hopefully, in the back of their minds, they're gonna try not to be as much of an asshole.
- [58:34]
B
Yeah. And I think to your point, this is such a good less, because every time. And this is what I have told myself in the last 12 years of owning and operating a business that works with people so closely when things go wrong, because they will. You will always have that client, or you have several of those clients or those projects that just go, like, off.
- [58:55]
A
The rails all the time. Every single thing.
- [58:57]
B
Honestly, you can't even think of the things that can happen.
- [59:00]
A
There's too many.
- [59:01]
B
There's too many things. And so when these things do happen, it just makes your contract that much stronger for the next project.
- [59:07]
A
Absolutely.
- [59:08]
B
And so you learn, you put it in writing, you change it, and then it hopefully prevents it in the future. Because if you were to sit down and think about all of the things that could go wrong, there's no way. There's no way in hell that you could, like, fathom some of these things.
- [59:23]
A
You can't.
- [59:23]
B
Sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight Zone. I'm like, what is happening?
- [59:26]
A
We say that too, all the time. Like, what do you mean that that went wrong, too? That's just, like, from a physics perspective, not possible for this many things. To go wrong.
- [59:36]
B
It's so true. It's so true. And so whether that's like, you know, just a force of nature where something happens and it's out of your control, or it's a client who's doing that or it's, you know, other things, protecting yourself is the most important thing.
- [59:51]
A
Absolutely. I'm completely with you.
- [59:53]
B
If they're not gonna work with you, there's no point in continuing it anyway. So making sure that you have an out is like the safest place to be.
- [60:01]
A
I also think making peace with the fact that the client might tell a different story than the truth. And you just have to be okay with that because we can't what people are going to say, but no one, it's embarrassing to be fired by your interior designer because you can't behave. So expect that the client is not going to tell the truth about what happened. And I think if you feel like you have it well documented and you feel good about it, just no matter how much they fight, you essentially say like, unfortunately, this is a decision that has been made and we will not be reversing it. If you have additional questions and then send them to your attorney.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah, it's so true.
- [60:44]
A
If they continue to badger you, then the attorney can sort of de. Escalate that situation. But I think what I've done in the past, which is let them back in, that's the last thing you want to do. That's the thing you should try to stay away from as much as humanly possible.
- [61:00]
B
And one thing I wish that clients knew and understood is that not only is this our job and our goal is to give clients a beautiful home that they love and, and they can enjoy for many, many years to come. We also need their word of mouth recommendations for future projects.
- [61:17]
A
Absolutely.
- [61:18]
B
So it's in our best interest to make sure that the project goes forward as smoothly as possible.
- [61:24]
A
Like, we're on the same team.
- [61:26]
B
Totally. And it doesn't feel like that sometimes I think from the get go, and maybe this is something I personally have experienced from husbands and I don't know if this is like, they feel like they need to step in and be like the person like, who controls the purse strings or like project manager or whatever, even if they're not involved in other aspects of the project, they're always the one that needs to step in and be like, firm about things, which, whatever. But yeah, I, I don't think that they. We're not adversaries here. Like, we are trying to accomplish the same thing.
- [61:57]
A
Exactly.
- [61:57]
B
And so if it's gotten to this point, it's not because it's usually anything that the designer has done. So maybe some self reflection. I mean, that's too much to ask for for sure, but, like, maybe some self reflection would be good, but at.
- [62:10]
A
This stage, definitely too much to ask for. I do think that to my point earlier, the clients that need to be fired are the ones that are never going to look inward. They're never going to see that this was them. And so having it in your contract and being able to walk away is worth its weight in gold. And then I do think there's a little bit of a reputation with interior design that we're like divas and, you know, we want what we want and we're difficult to work with. In my experience, once people actually work with us, they're like, oh, you actually make everything a lot easier. Yeah, that's our jobs. That's the whole point. So I think sometimes people are going into the relationship with a designer adversarial from the beginning, from the first moment you meet them. And to your point, it's normally husbands. And in my experience, it's because they don't wanna pay for someone to do this. They think their home's fine how it is, and this is to make their wife happy. And so they're, like, trying to catch you in doing things wrong. And that, I think, is leading with the assumption that we're trying to take advantage or we're trying to, like, pull the wool over someone's eyes when that couldn't be further from the truth. Every designer I know is just trying to give their clients a beautiful home for a good price and make a slight profit.
- [63:30]
B
Yeah.
- [63:30]
A
And that's where it ends. Like, none of these people are evil masterminds.
- [63:34]
B
Yeah. And we're talking about home design here. Like, we're not talking about anything that is, like, so dire that warrants that kind of energy. They think that we're coming in there and, like, I don't know, they think we're going to move in surgery. It's wild. It's just like we're talking about furniture here. Dude. My dude, calm down, please.
- [63:55]
A
It's okay. Let's all take some group deep breaths because it's going to be okay. Oh, my God. Okay, well, good luck to the person who's trying to fire that clown client. I. I think bottom line, stand your ground and you'll be okay. Okay. Before I let you go, thank you so much for your time. This has been really fun. Our tagline at CTI is interiors that make you feel. So what are a couple of things that are making you feel in the last couple weeks?
- [64:27]
B
Ooh, good question. I have been really just kind of leaning into lots of pattern. I don't know if this is. I mean, that's such a basic thing to say. Surprise a designer who likes pattern. I don't know if it's that, like, this time of year, do you ever get, like, I need to refresh everything, and I need, like, a blank slate and a fresh, clean desk. And, like, usually that lends itself to neutrals. I'm like, I need neutrals, I need solids, I need clean, I need nothing on my countertops, I need clear surfaces. Um, but this year and over the last few months, I've really noticed instead of doing that, which I normally gravitate towards, I've been really wanting things in pattern and color and life and, you know, beautiful things in, like, a nice, curated way. Not clutter, but, of course, more beautiful clutter, maybe. So I find myself maybe being a little easier on myself in my own house about the things that I have out and on display. There's less pressure to have things, especially in the new year, that's just, like, fresh and open and clean. So, yeah, I guess I'm really feeling energized by beautiful or vibrant clutter at the moment.
- [65:44]
A
I love that I'm feeling very similar. I also think for me, with the fires in LA and so many people we know losing everything they own, I have really wanted to, like, be surrounded by my things in a way that, like, is being grateful for having them. I think because we see so much, like, so much product, so many things, it's easy for everything to feel, like, oversaturated. But being, like, grounding yourself in not neutrals and not, like, clean, but in the things that, like, make you feel like you or feel empowering in some way. I think for me, has been inspiring. Like, almost getting inspired by things that have been there for a very long time but are mean something to, you know, I think that it just made me think a lot about it, a lot more. It's really brought it to the forefront of my mind of, like, what in my home really means something to me. And, like, leading with that in design in general, I think is something that we're trying to do.
- [66:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's a really great way to put it. This kind of preference towards sentimentality, I think, is it's not something that can be bought often, or it's something that's collected over time or made or those. And so really prioritizing that. I think that's a really a great way to put it. Cause I totally agree.
- [67:06]
A
It's, like, not about the $30 box. It's about that the box is from World War II and has initials carved into the bottom of it. Do you know what I mean? It's very much about the history and the character and the feeling that you get from those things. I love that I want to just be surrounded by my things, which. And I should say there are, if anybody can, there are Quite a few GoFundMes that need to be that. Kelly Lam of Rue magazine, who we love, was affected. But there are so many other GoFundMes and things that are. Yeah, needing to be. Need a little love. So I can recommend that we all go and potentially just give, like, $25 to someone who doesn't have a home anymore, because we know how much those mean to people. I think it could go a long way. Amazing. Thank you, Shannon, so much for doing this. I'm so grateful. This was really fun. Before we go, where can we find you? Where should people look to find your boo? Beautiful work.
- [68:04]
B
You can find me on shannonclearinteriors.com. i am very active on Instagram. I am personally active as a viewer on TikTok. But since that's going away, I will be more active on Instagram.
- [68:15]
A
RIP.
- [68:16]
B
RIP. TikTok. So I am at Shannon Claire on Instagram.
- [68:21]
A
I love your Instagram.
- [68:22]
B
Oh, thank you. It's. That's a creative outlet, and you're so good at it. Thank you. It can feel like a lot sometimes, so it needs to be fun.
- [68:30]
A
I think absolutely it can. Yeah. And I think you're. Yeah. You really struck the right chord on the Voice. It's casual enough, but you're sharing enough. I. Yeah. And like I said in the beginning, I feel like I'm always like, oh, my God, I love that moisturizer, too. Or whatever it is. Like, I'm always like, yep, she and I are on the same page. Housewives, skincare, all of it. We are on the same page.
- [68:53]
B
It's so true. And I feel the same way about you, too. I literally had. And I should have told you this before, but I had a client who basically showed me one of the rooms that you had designed and said, I love that. Can I hire you to recreate this, like, top to bottom? And I was like, you can hire Caroline and she can do it. She already did it. It's gorgeous. But they were Like, I want the floor, I want the walls. Can you find out what paint color this is? Like, I need this in my house. And I was like, well, we have an answer for you, and her name is Caroline.
- [69:24]
A
I'm very flattered. It's funny, because I was just telling another designer that we did the same thing. I was like, your kitchen, we show it to our clients because it's so beautiful. I think that's the highest praise. I love that. That is beyond. I was gonna. Oh. Make sure you guys are following Shannon, because the Gables. Oh, my God. Before we go, I know this is the final tangent, but will you tell us a little bit about it? It is so beautiful. Congratulations. So is it outside of D.C. yeah.
- [69:54]
B
So it's on the Eastern shore of Maryland, and that is amazing. An hour and a half away from my house. Because both my husband and I work remotely, we are going to split our.
- [70:04]
A
Time in both places.
- [70:07]
B
And, yeah, I think a change of scenery is really what was needed, and we both wanted to tackle something that was old, like, proper old. And I plan to do all of the things that, like, I wouldn't encourage clients to do. And I am going to, like, design it slowly over time. Yeah. Because I could do it like, this is a different thing.
- [70:28]
A
Amazing. Yeah.
- [70:29]
B
I'm gonna let it, like, reveal itself to me and live in it, and hopefully we'll own it forever, and this will just come together very, very slowly over time.
- [70:38]
A
So the dream. But that also will be really fun to watch, so everybody go follow her on Instagram, because, I mean, what you've already done is stunning. I love the choices you made. Everything's so classic, and it feels like it will really, really stand the test of time.
- [70:53]
B
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, the house itself is old, and so I just really want to do it justice and let it tell its own story. Story.
- [70:59]
A
I think you are amazing. Okay, well, Shannon, thank you so much, and thank you all for listening. I am forever grateful. I. This is annoying to ask, but if you can rate review on Spotify and Apple, it helps us so, so, so much. And until then, peace be with.