I Confess... Install Day Surprise Party

Summary

Podcast Summary: Confessions of an Interior Designer

Episode: I Confess...Install Day Surprise Party
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Tom Stringer (Tom Stringer Design Partners)
Date: April 22, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into the unexpected, awkward, and oftentimes hilarious realities of luxury interior design – specifically, the chaos that can erupt on installation day. Host Caroline Turner chats with celebrated designer Tom Stringer about career evolution, hard-won lessons in client relationships, transparency in the design industry, and some jaw-dropping listener confessions. With plenty of laughter and total candor, this episode is a goldmine for both design pros and anyone curious about what happens behind the velvet drapes of high-end interiors.

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About Tom Stringer

• Reputation: 25-time ASID Design Excellence Award winner, known for his blend of classic and worldly interiors, and long-term relationships with multi-generational clients.
• Backstory: Childhood obsession with floor plans and design, left design school to start working and running firms at a young age, eventually returned to finish his degree, and now runs his own prestigious firm.
• Personal Ethos: Lifelong learning, ethical transparency, creativity fueled by travel, and a commitment to advancing the profession for both clients and staff.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tom Stringer’s Career Path

• Early Years:
  • “I was born for this…pretty much almost failed fourth grade math because I was so obsessed with drawing floor plans on graph paper.” — Tom, (01:06)
  • Childhood saw him commandeering his sister’s dollhouse, wiring it for electricity and making draperies.
  • Interned and worked jobs varying from delivery boy to firm owner, dropped out and later returned to finish his degree.
• Mentorship and Milestones:
  • Worked for significant names in Arizona and San Francisco, took over a business at 21, opened his own firm at 30, and has now been running it for 30 years.
  • “It actually took me 10 years to get a bachelor’s degree in design. But I was working, you know? That’s the complete sideways maneuver.” — Tom, (05:04)
• Longevity & Learning:
  • On three decades in business: “I still don’t feel like a grownup. I still feel like one of them, but I could be their grandfather.” — Tom, (07:19)

Building Trust and Ethical Business Practices

• Client Relationships:
  • Tom works with families for multiple generations:
    • “I have clients I’m working with now that I was working with when I opened my doors.” — Tom, (08:42)
    • This requires “constantly keeping at the forefront of our mind what is best for the client and always what is best for the client and the long-term relationship.” — Tom, (10:38)
• Business Transparency:
  • Both Tom and Caroline emphasize the importance of clients knowing designer markups and the move away from the “shenanigans” of the ‘70s and ‘80s.
  • “We run an extraordinarily clean, open book business that essentially treats us like fiduciaries for our clients.” — Tom, (11:42)
  • “Most designers I know are making sure, down to the cent, like an accountant, that nothing is being misused.” — Caroline, (12:12)
• Reputation:
  • The conversation highlights how stigmas about irresponsible spending persist (though outdated), and how today’s designers go above and beyond to maintain long-term trust.

Handling Mistakes & Project Hiccups

• Taking Responsibility:
  • “We have so many touchpoints in a project, it’s just no matter how careful you are, there are always situations where things get out of control.” — Tom, (15:18)
  • Tom shares how sometimes his firm foots the bill for issues that aren’t their fault ($28,000 recently!), just to maintain goodwill and project momentum, even if it’s “the cost of doing business.” — (14:14)
• On Problem-Solving:
  • “Our approach whenever we encounter a job site problem is to solve the problem. That’s all we care about. And then we’ll sit down later and decide who’s going to pay for the fix.” — Tom, (17:55)
  • Teaching staff to bring solutions, not just problems, and viewing design as “creative problem solving” extending well beyond aesthetics.

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Listener Confessions: Reactions & Lessons

Confession #1: The Architect Power Grab

(24:50–29:20)

• Confession: A designer shows up for a collaborative restoration project, but the architect dominates, undercuts, and pitches tasteless materials, ultimately getting the client to dump the designer. The architect’s vision flops, and the project stalls.
• Reaction:
  • “I personally would run like hell.” — Tom, (25:09)
  • “A client who can be persuaded from one meeting with gray tile samples didn’t aesthetically care enough…” — Caroline, (25:38)
  • Both agree: qualifying clients is vital; sometimes being dropped is a blessing. Bad relationships are miserable for all involved.
  • “The mood in my office changed immeasurably the minute I said we were off the project.” — Tom, (27:37)

Confession #2: Install Day Surprise Party

(29:20–39:00)

• Confession: A designer arrives on installation day to discover an unannounced, full-blown family brunch party in progress, with guests drunkenly drifting around, interfering with movers and unpacking.
• Reaction:
  • Tom: “We have a steadfast policy that clients may not attend their installation installs.” — (32:01)
  • Both emphasize setting clear boundaries and expectations: “Nobody wants to see the sausage being made…Let us do the magic and then you get to see the end result.” — Tom, (32:12)
  • Hilarious penance: “The client’s mother-in-law refuses to leave the house and moves into the guest suite.” — Tom, (37:29)
  • The segment underscores the importance of contracts spelling out install protocols and empowering designers, especially early-career professionals, to be direct about boundaries.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Imposter Syndrome:

  • “I think that’s what keeps me learning...probably I’m driven by imposter syndrome.” — Tom, (06:59)

• On Long-Term Client Trust:

  • “You can never break the trust of a client, certainly at that level. But any client.” — Tom, (10:38)

• On Letting Go of Nightmarish Clients:

  • “I have to preserve the organization as well. I can't take a bad client for revenue because it just destroys everything else, the morale of the creative people around me.” — Tom, (27:37)

• On the Install Day Party from Hell:

  • “From their perspective, it was a fun day and a big event to celebrate; from mine, I was on the verge of tears.” — Listener Confession, (34:45)
  • “You've never seen me in hysterics, but you're about to.” — Tom (re: how he’d handle such chaos), (38:45)

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Tom Stringer on Design, Trends, and Building a Legacy

On Timeless Design

• Avoiding trends and working so his projects “still have currency” 15 years later. “I try to be aware of trends. I try not to indulge in them.” — Tom, (40:23)
• Loves seeing brown furniture’s renaissance (“it’s eternal”) and values little touches of black or chocolate in every room.

On Time & Project Evolution

• The value of marinating ideas: “Every project is better for a little time marinating...The best interiors really tell the client’s story.” — Tom, (43:12–44:29)
• Some projects take years, and the best ones take time to mature and get layered with the client’s life.

On Nurturing Staff and the Business

• Unique sabbatical program for employees: “Every five years, every employee gets a month sabbatical, plus a travel stipend.” — Tom, (52:04)
• Professional coaching for all employees, not just executives, is now a core benefit.
• “Our retention is our currency. When we work with these families and clients, long term, institutional knowledge is everything.” — Tom, (55:12–55:37)
• Mission to create an ethical, sustainable business where staff don’t have to leave to advance.

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The Power of Travel in Design

• “Travel is jet fuel for my imagination, for my creativity...Any designer who has traveled the world is a better designer because of it.” — Tom, (47:01–47:53)
• Runs the business to support his travel (12+ weeks per year), sometimes traveling with clients for inspiration.
• Instituted employee travel sabbaticals to enrich team creativity and client value.

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Fun Insights & Personality

• Vices: “Caffeine and weed. Why not?...Actually, my real vice is travel.” — Tom, (21:00–21:26)
• On Water as Inspiration: Life on, and love of, the water fuels both his personal happiness and creative process, something he traces to childhood sailing adventures.
• Design Philosophy: Not a fiber snob; champions performance fabrics for comfort and longevity, but says “it’s a value proposition.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tom’s backstory & career beginnings: 00:50–06:12
• Imposter syndrome & never feeling ‘done’: 06:37–07:19
• Long-term client relationships & trust: 08:02–12:16
• Industry transparency, trust, and business ethics: 11:35–13:21
• Handling project mistakes & absorbance: 14:00–18:32
• Listener confession #1 (the architect takeover): 24:50–29:20
• Listener confession #2 (install day party surprise): 29:20–39:00
• Thoughts on trends, timelessness, legacy: 40:14–44:29
• Value of travel, staff sabbaticals, and coaching: 46:43–55:37
• Personal inspiration & water: 58:11–60:10
• Performance fabrics discussion: 60:21–61:58

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Final Thoughts

Tom Stringer embodies the belief that great interiors are built on trust, ethical standards, and a constant hunger to learn, grow, and adapt. His candid insights on client relations, the perils of install day, and fostering a team environment that challenges industry norms are honest, often hilarious, and always actionable for both designers and design-lovers alike.

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Where to Find Tom: tomstringer.com

Quote to Remember:
“It’s all a desperate attempt to be loved by the people who work for me.” — Tom, (58:11)

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Tom Stringer, founder of Tom Stringer Design partners and a 25 time award winner of ASID's Design Excellence Awards. Known for his blend of classic style and worldly sophistication, Tom creates interiors that are personal, elegant, and vibrant. His global travels inspire products from Mid Century estates in Beverly Hills to Georgian homes in dublin, and even 50 meter motor yachts. Tom, welcome to Confessions. Thank you so much for being here. I'm honored.

[B]

Happy to be with you.

[A]

Yes. I'm so excited. Okay, well, before we get into our vice and Confessions and all of that, I'd love to know a little bit about how you got here.

[B]

The long story or the short story?

[A]

Either one. Whichever you'll give me.

[B]

Well, I think it honestly started with urban planning in a sandbox and moved on to taking over my brother's ho train set and then commandeering my sister's dollhouse, wiring it for electricity, refurnishing it, making draperies for it. I mean, my sister never had any taste, so I had to take over. Yeah, it's true. And I pretty much almost failed fourth grade math because I was so obsessed with drawing floor plans on graph paper. And then. And then I would design the landscape, and then I would design the Toro landscape, irrigation systems and lighting systems. I'm kind of a systems geek, but, yeah, I was. I was totally whacked out on design before I ever got anything. I was born for. This

[A]

was. This is what you were born to do? Wow, that is incredible.

[B]

I was enough of an architecture geek that my best friend Tony and I used to spend afternoons after school drawing floor plans.

[A]

Wow. I mean, it's probably why you're sitting where you are right now.

[B]

Super geeky, super gay. But, you know, whatever, it all fit.

[A]

It worked out probably the best it could have, so I think it's great.

[B]

Wedding staircases, doll. Double wedding staircases. On a really good day,

[A]

You have to have an entrance.

[B]

I loved a Southern colonial.

[A]

I mean, I don't believe you.

[B]

Who doesn't?

[A]

Exactly. Okay, so after you realize that you should be doing this, obviously, for, like, life, clearly, what is your next step? Do you. Did you. Did you go to school for this? How did you.

[B]

Yeah, actually. Well, I started working kind of part time for an interior design firm outside of Milwaukee, where I grew up. And I messed with my mom's house enough, you know, that, you know, plus the subscription, Dark Digest and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Anyways, I did go to design school. I went to the College of Architecture and Design at Arizona State University and got my start there. And then I think it was in my second semester of school. I got a job with a company in Scottsdale, Kitchel Newland Interiors, the great decorator, Nancy Kitchell. And that was my first real gig in design. And I worked as an assistant and a delivery boy and, you know, gopher, and then ultimately got a job there as a designer. And the other partner, Brad Newlin, in that venture, decided to go out on his own and gave me a job offer to go with him. And. And I ended up like, really? I quit school.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I thought, well, this is an opportunity to start a design firm to like, from the ground up to really understand what this takes to do the thing. Yeah. So I went off and kind of did the thing with Brad and then he came down with kidney disease and ultimately ended up handing me the keys to the biz. I think I was at that point, 21.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And running a three person design firm in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I had no idea what I was doing. But honestly. But I learned best when I, like the analogy is, you know, you're drowning, you've got one nostril left above the waves, and you learn how to succeed. And I figured it out. And it wasn't until Brad had a transplant, recovered, came back. It was probably a year and a half later.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That I decided I really didn't want to be 40 and not have a degree. So I ultimately, I quit that job and I went back to school. That was pretty cool because I went back observing my professors as. And relating to them as peers, not as demagogues.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. And I was really, I was top of my class because I, you know, I'd already been working in the industry and I knew what was what and I knew what I didn't know, which was also cool. Right. Like, I knew what I needed to know that I didn't know. Anyways, it actually took me 10 years to get a bachelor's degree in design. Well, I mean, you were working, you know, that. The complete sideways maneuver. And then after graduation, I went to work for Charlie Feaster in San Francisco designing furniture, which had become kind of a passion of mine in school. And I designed his collections for Baker and Casella and Brown Jordan.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then Charlie passed away. He Died of AIDS in that crisis. And. And on a lark, I moved back to. I moved to Chicago because I wanted to be back in the Midwest, and my family was in the Midwest, and I had friends here, and I got a job working for Alessandra Branca and then became her design director after a short while.

[A]

What an education.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And then three years, I think, into that, I decided to open my own doors, and that was now 30 years ago this year.

[A]

Wow. Congrats. What an accomplishment that is. How do you feel?

[B]

I can't imagine I'm old enough for that to happen.

[A]

Well, you're not. You're 21.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, I'm still learning my way, but. But, yeah, 30 years.

[A]

Yeah. Actually, I have a question about that. Sorry to interrupt you. Did you ever. Was there ever a point where you were like, I feel like I've got this. I feel like I. I'm sure at some points you're like, okay, now I know what to do here. Now I know what to do here. But was there ever a moment where you're like, I know what I'm doing?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, great. But honestly, in some ways, that's a little freeing.

[B]

No, I think. I mean, honestly, no. I think that's what keeps me learning, is, you know, probably I'm driven by imposter syndrome. I mean, I just think that there's. There's just so much opportunity to be better at what you are all the time. So I'm glad to not feel like I can just, like, rest on my laurels.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, getting notices that it's time for me to sign up for Social Security is unfortunately a harbinger of the fact that I'm gonna have to ultimately address the fact that I still don't feel like a grownup.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, but it's tough. And I have employees that bring their parents in here to see the office, and then I realize that I'm older than their parents. And you're like, okay, it's terrifying. Okay, it's really terrifying. Yeah. So I still feel like. I still feel like one of them, but I could be their grandfather. So, no, I'm getting okay with it.

[A]

I mean, it also means that you've had such an insanely successful career. I mean, if you look back at your time in this industry, do you. Can you believe what you did?

[B]

I think my career's been insane. I would never say insanely successful as two words together.

[A]

Of course, you maybe can't say that, but I can.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I can't say that stuff. But no, you know, it's been. I'm thrilled with how this all happened to me, you know. Yeah. I feel incredibly lucky. I've had an extraordinary set of life experiences. I'm a lucky guy and I get to work with the coolest clients. I mean, it's really.

[A]

What a privilege.

[B]

It's amazing. I have clients that I'm working with now that I was working with when I opened my doors.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Like literally 30 years ago, a woman who said to me, you're really smart, you should open your own studio. My husband and I have a lot of work ahead of us. We'll give you good cash flow. Is now 87 years old. I'm still working for her. I just delivered a project, a modern project for her in the woods of northern Wisconsin at the end of last year. And I just saw her in Naples, Florida last weekend. We're doing a touch up to her place there. But I'm now on my third generation of that family. And it's not the only family. I have another family that I've worked for now three generations and we've done over 40 projects for them in the last 30 years.

[A]

What a compliment to you and your team.

[B]

Yeah. We have this really nice group of very acquisitive clients that dig working with us and they just keep coming back for more. And it's so cool to get to work, you know, in an arc for families that understand you, that you understand intrinsically by now that you're really a member of the family. And they let me work very intuitively, you know, with surprisingly little supervision.

[A]

I mean, I'm like salivating. This is the dream. Are you kidding? Wow. That's incredible.

[B]

It's a really awesome gig.

[A]

That's incredible. I mean. Yeah, there's no two ways about it. That is an awesome gig. Wow. Okay. Any multi generational families that are listening? No, I'm kidding. But that is really something special. It also, I mean, it's really a compliment to you and your team because there's things that go wrong in this industry. And so to maintain that level of partnership with your client, but three generations of that family, I mean, that is, that's a feat in my opinion.

[B]

Well, I think in a way maybe that works two ways for us in that achieving that level of trust from a client and a client family requires constantly keeping at the forefront of our mind what is best for the client and always what is best for the client and the long term relationship. Because you can never break the trust of a Client, certainly at that level, but any client. And so it's required of us to maintain, it requires us to maintain a very high level of ethical standards. And that in itself then brings more clients, you know, who, who are referred. And that's been a hallmark of my business is to run an extraordinarily clean, open book business that essentially treats us like fiduciaries for our clients.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know that we must always act with their interest at the forefront. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's good for us, it's good for business and our clients love it. You know that they always know we're, we're going to treat them right.

[A]

It's so interesting you say that because we feel the same way. We are very transparent about our markup and where everything comes from. And you can always, you know, you can look it up and it's all kosher. But I feel like there's sometimes a stigma in this industry, like against designers that were sort of trying to spend people's money unnecessarily. But most designers I know are making sure, down to the scent, like an accountant, that nothing is being misused. Why do you think that the industry sort of got that reputation to begin with?

[B]

Well, I think it did, deservedly.

[A]

Sure. At one point maybe we were spending clients money a little irresponsibly. Yeah.

[B]

There was, I mean, there was a time when I've been in this business long enough. I remember a time in which there was very little transparency in designers markups and clients didn't know how their designers were being compensated or what the markup factors were.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so designers were kind of free to, you know, do as they charge what they want.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. If there's no transparency required, I think all sorts of, you know, all sorts of stuff, shenanigans can take place.

[A]

It could be a slippery slope that you don't even know is happening.

[B]

Yeah. But I think, I think in the modern age of the way our industry works, there's very little room for that. But you know, stigmas are hard to erase. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think it has a lot of bears a lot of reality in the current, but.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But I think we got that, we decorators, designers got that reputation deservedly in the, in the 70s and early 80s.

[A]

Yep. I think transparency, as we're saying, is sort of like the key to all of this. Trust is something that I always tell my clients. It's like we're getting married. We need to trust each other as much as if we were signing a marriage license. And so I really do think it's the trust piece to your point is once it's lost, it's lost. And that all of that work you did sort of sometimes feels for naught. Have there been points in your career where you knew we didn't do anything wrong? There's. We were not. This was not us, but we are going to ultimately make this right to save the relationship. I'm sure there's tons of times like that, but is there something you think?

[B]

I think it happens on every project.

[A]

Yep. Okay. Us too.

[B]

That's just the reality of doing business, I think, you know, even if I was in manufacturing, we'd still be, you know, swallowing expenses occurring occasionally to make the. You know, to make it right.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And yeah, we just. Actually, we just before this show, I just choked down a $28,000 invoice to a client for, you know, for some stuff that needed to be fixed that was not really our fault. But they're a big client, and honestly, I want them to be happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's not the end of the world. It's the cost of doing business.

[A]

Oh, my God. I just got agita from. Wow. There's a good reason I'm not. Not in your level yet.

[B]

I did thr a little in my mouth when I said, okay,

[A]

I'm nauseous for you. But it's all on the scale. Right. It's all relative. Like, if you're working at a certain level, then the mistakes are also very expensive. Even if they're not your mistakes, they are just mistakes in general to this level are quite expensive. That's something that I've had to grapple with recently is just absolutely not being in the wrong, but needing to just make it right for the sake of the project. And it's sometimes a hard pill to swallow.

[B]

And I think as designers, we have so many touch points in a project, it's just no matter how careful you are, there are always situations where things get out of control. And I would say a lot of times, it's not really our fault, but ultimately, we are responsible because we're in control of the process.

[A]

Yeah, understood.

[B]

And at the end of the day, the invoice comes with my name on it, so clients have got to be happy.

[A]

And can I ask you kind of a in the weeds question? So are you. Do you have your own millworker, stone installer, all of that, or are you running all of that through your contractor and not because I find that where the mistakes come in is when I can't control the sub. I have to produce the drawings, we have to design it, but we don't control the end result. Is that something that in your process you've honed in on? How do you handle that?

[B]

We try not to be responsible for those things. We try not to run most contractor related items through us. We're happy to specify the stone or the tile or the mantle and approve all the drawings, but yeah, we try to keep that in the GC's department purview.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

There are times in which if, say, a marble mosaic is really complicated, even the GC may say, why don't you guys just shepherd that through? Because they don't want to screw it up. And that's fine. We always agree to cap our fees in that instance to what the GC's markup would be so that the client isn't disincentivized to run it through us. But I don't, you know, I want the client to have the benefit of warranties. I don't want to be buying faucets and, you know, and dealing with warranties. We're in an FF&E business, but we're not. Yeah. And I don't want to try to grab that kind of, I guess you could call it market share. I think it's.

[A]

Yep. It's fraught with all kinds of stuff. All kinds of stuff.

[B]

Plus, if the faucet doesn't work, I don't want them to call me.

[A]

Yeah. Three years down the line, don't call me, call the contractor. I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree. So have you had it? A situation where you are held to responsibility even if you are not? Like if there is something that happens and a drawing, you know, a millworker does something wrong, that's against your drawings? Have you had it where people are trying to hold you accountable for something that ultimately you didn't get, you know, you didn't touch money. They're not your sub. How do you handle something like that?

[B]

I don't think we. I can't remember ever feeling like we were unjustifiably, you know, held responsible for something. We're pretty tight in our documentation and for good reason.

[A]

Y.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, our approach whenever we encounter a job site problem is to solve the problem. That's all we care about. And then we'll sit down later and decide who's going to pay for it. The fix. But all I want to do is keep things moving. I want to solve the problem and then we'll sit down and work on a solution later. And there are many times in which there are many hands and actually many shoulders to bear the consequences. It's often a two or three way split if it's a big. A big problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Problem being many zeros. Yeah.

[A]

I think the united front of solving something with a contractor and then the client knowing what's going on, if ever is something that we're trying to facilitate more.

[B]

Yeah. I want to have found a solution before I announce a problem, I think.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Otherwise you're basically asking someone to solve your problem for you.

[A]

You're creating more problems.

[B]

Yeah. It extends to the way we run our business. You know, I'm perfectly happy to be a sounding board to my staff, but they know not to bring me problems. They bring me situations and potential solutions and then I can help guide them to the one that I think is the best. But you can't just dump your problems on me and run.

[A]

Well, that's also probably training them so much better than just you fixing everything.

[B]

Well, design is creative problem solving. Right. And that applies. It's not just decorating problem solving.

[A]

It's often less that and more the. All the other stuff.

[B]

Oh yeah, it's much more about logistics and politics and client relationships. Right. And design. And design.

[A]

Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your project schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Doubt it. Doubt it. Well, I Want to get into some confessions before we do that? What's your vice?

[B]

The aforementioned coffee? Caffeine.

[A]

Classic one.

[B]

Caffeine and weed. Why not?

[A]

Yeah. I am so with you. And we should hang out. We should hang out. I do feel that things from the earth just often help with creativity, you know? Yeah.

[B]

They're both good catalysts for creativity for me.

[A]

Absolutely. I love it.

[B]

Actually. My real vice, my real hardcore vice is travel.

[A]

Yeah. Which I want to talk to you about. We're going to get into the weeds on that because I did some research on how you. Yeah, we'll get into it. I'm so excited to talk about that. About that. About that. So let's do a confession. I once showed up to an initial client meeting for a restoration of an old Tudor home. A beautiful original house with leaded glass windows and all of its original detailing still intact. I was very excited about it because it had so much character. And my approach going in was very much about a careful restoration that would protect and enhance what was already there. The clients had also brought an architect onto the project, which was totally fine. I'm always open to working alongside architects. When it's a true collaboration, it can bring out the best in a project. So I go into the meeting with my junior designer. It's the two of us, the clients and the architect. We're talking through direction, materials, how to preserve what's there. And gradually, the architect starts bringing out materials, sample boards, far more than what was needed for that stage, and also not his job. But he starts laying things out on the table, talking through these samples with the clients, and completely ignoring us, the actual designers. And the samples were hideous. He was pulling out plastic sighting samples, gray porcelain tiles that looked like they belonged in an office building lobby or a hotel bathroom. It was all very commercial, very dull, and very far away from anything that spoke to the character of the Tudor at all. I kind of watched this play out, not wanting to overstep and waiting for the clients to step in and remind him that they'd brought us on the actual designers. But he started kind of casually saying things like implying that bringing in a designer wasn't really necessary, that it would just add cost, that they could simplify things and save money if they just kept it straightforward. And he's saying this while we are sitting right there. No shame at all. What? Like what? So at this point, I tried a few times to steer it back to a different direction, like pointing out the original leaded glass, the structure of the home, just bringing up what the house was already telling us because truly homes like that have a strong personality that gives us direction on its own. And it's not commercial grade tile or gray flooring. But he didn't like, whenever I jump in, he would overpower the conversation, talk over me, undermine and question what I was saying. And it felt like he was trying to make me look unknowledgeable again. I felt that the clients had brought me in for a reason. So ultimately, as long as I'd said my piece, it wasn't my job to sit there and get in a fight with this architect. At a meeting at 11am we finished the meeting and I thanked the clients, told them we'd follow up on a couple things, et cetera. But a couple days later, I got an email saying they decided to take us off the project and go ahead with the architect and his, quote, design vision. I think I actually laughed at that email, but not my circus, not my monkeys. Anyway, time passes and I move on from it. And then I hear from a friend in the industry what actually happened afterward. Apparently once they got out of that initial, quote, big presentation phase and into actual design and execution, things started falling apart pretty quickly. The ideas he had pitched didn't really translate into anything buildable or cohesive. There wasn't a clear direction. Once the samples and talk were gone and the project stalled, surprise, surprise, they ended up firing him. And the whole thing never moved forward after that, as far as I know. To this day, I wonder if they still think interior designers aren't necessary. I mean, I won't say this hasn't happened to me. Maybe not as aggressively sitting at the table, but. Yeah, I mean, I certainly think that sometimes there are other people in the industry who want to do everything and they're going to try to cut you out if that's their prerogative.

[B]

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me, but I. But I can imagine scenarios in which it might. And yeah, I also see both interior designers moving towards architecture and architects moving towards interiors really as a market share kind of gesture. So I get that. I personally would run like hell.

[A]

They did them a favor. The clients did these designers a favor by saying they were going with the architect. Because to me, a client who can be persuaded from one meeting with gray tile samples didn't aesthetically care enough to want to be. Want to do the whole process with the interior designer. In my opinion, like, if they're okay with taking that concession on all the design, then they don't. They're not like as interested as they should be, in my opinion.

[B]

I'd agree. I think that's a client who doesn't qualify.

[A]

Yeah. Great. And it's almost like, thank you for doing me the favor.

[B]

Yeah. It's one of the hardest things I think a designer has to get good at. Right. Which is discerning which clients are going to be good clients and which clients are potential trouble. And we all screw up. And the problem is these relationships are long term. It's not like it's, you know, it's not like it's a three week gig. You're working with them for a year, maybe two a year at a minimum. And they can make your life miserable.

[A]

They can.

[B]

And I think honestly, a bad relation, bad client, designer relationship really makes everybody miserable.

[A]

Everybody. Yep. The client's not having fun either. Even if, you know, it's often sort of a back and forth push and pull that. Yeah. No one wants to be involved in.

[B]

I've had to fire a few clients along the way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The sooner the better, honestly. I mean, for me there was. I let a client go early on into a project about a year and a half ago. We'd been working with them as consultants for six months. Could never get our hands around the project. Couldn't get them to help us define truscope. And I just kept feeling weirder and weirder about it and finally just sat them down and said, hey, I don't think I'm the right guy for this job. And figured out how to leave them, how to have them leave the office smiling. Which is a cat trick.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

But honestly, the mood in my office changed immeasurably the minute I said we were off the project. It had been really weighing on everyone's kind of collective shoulders. And I have to preserve the organization as well. I can't take a bad client for revenue because it just destroys everything else, the morale of the creative people around me. And that's not something I wanna mess with.

[A]

Every single time I've taken a client that I wasn't 100% sure about, they end up being a nightmare. They end up staying on double the time you thought they were. And then you get a massive project, you don't have time for them. And I regret it every time. But the holding out, like when you're riding the wave of the tide, going back out and there's not as much work coming to you, I think sometimes that's a difficult barrel to be staring down that you're like, well, I have to pay My bills. Do I do this or do I take a loan? Do I do something else in order to not have to take these clients? And I can confidently say I would have saved myself money if I hadn't taken them.

[B]

And wear and tear.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Of the. I mean, of everyone's happiness and everyone's morale. I mean, it is. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, some quick penance. I feel like I don't know that anyone even deserves anything other than like they kind of all got what they got. They deserved what they got. The designer didn't deserve these clients because they were gonna be horrible, and she was saved. The architect, I'm sure, bumbled his way through that and then looked like an idiot and got fired. And the clients never got to do their project. So it's a little bit like the universe worked it out for them. I think.

[B]

Nobody's happy.

[A]

Yeah, no one is. But like, well, you should have listened to. Okay, all right, let's do confession. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two, number two. Right after I started my own firm, I'd taken on a client who wanted to do a full second floor remodel. They'd already remodeled the first floor and essentially hired me to finish the home. The design part of the process had gone smoothly and I liked the client pretty well. So I showed up on the morning of install day thinking it would be a pretty straightforward day. I pulled up to the house and immediately noticed a couple other cars parked on the street. The homes in their neighborhood were pretty far apart, so the cars were clearly parked outside of their house. I thought that was odd, but walked in with my bags, ready to get started to find that the front door was already cracked. Not wanting to just barge in, I still rang the doorbell and to my pleasant surprise, was greeted not by the client, but by an older woman who introduced herself as the client's mother in law. Great. The dreaded words. I thought maybe she was just staying with them that week. But as I walked into the house, I heard voices coming from the kitchen. The mother in law goes and grabs my client, who comes over with a big smile on her face saying how excited she is for today, and asks if I want anything to eat or drink. I said maybe just a coffee to be polite. And she brings me into the kitchen to be greeted by a group of people gathered there, brunch spread fully laid out on the counter. I was so confused, thinking, what did I just walk into? Do I have the day wrong? She starts introducing me to the people there. Her sister, her cousin, her aunt. I'm making small talk, all the while glancing over my shoulder to make sure the movers haven't showed up yet. And mentally going through everything I'm not getting done that I need to be. I managed to get away thanks to one of my contractors showing up and got on with the job. I was mildly annoyed at this point, but since the work we were doing was on the second floor, I thought it might be okay. The movers arrive and we start bringing things in. And as I'm walking in and out, I notice more people start appearing. Other family members, I'm assuming, maybe a neighbor or two. And I realized that this isn't just a quick pop in or morning gathering. They were hosting a gathering for the install. And I was given no heads up. What in the world are you even talking about?

[B]

What? Cut and run again? I guess that's my answer to everything. Cut and run.

[A]

Oh, my God. And I can. I just know this feeling of like, I can't say anything to my client. Or maybe, you know, at some point you feel like you can, but like if you're young and you're sort of just starting out, you're like, I don't want to. I can't, like, tell them what to do. This is their house. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[B]

Well, that's why we start early in building expectations. Yes. I will say we have a steadfast policy that clients may not attend their installation installs.

[A]

Yep, we do too. It's in their contract.

[B]

We always just say, look, nobody wants to see the sausage being made or the hair being pulled or the tears. But every install involves a few of those. Yep.

[A]

So let us do the magic and then you get to see the end result. That's more fun.

[B]

Anyway, when the flowers are in their vases and the music's playing and the champagne's flowing, it's all a different thing.

[A]

So much of a different thing. I completely agree.

[B]

That's when impressions are made. So we absolutely do not allow parties during installation. Yeah,

[A]

yeah. I mean, we're typically sending an email like, hey, your install's in a month. Here's the plan. You should be out of the house for approximately X amount of days. Go on vacation, do whatever. Like that's a. That's a big conversation. So, yeah, that's an easy. We're not to the end, but that's an easy fix. Okay, so again, as I'm walking upstairs and downstairs, going from the trucks to unload and bring things inside, I'm running into people. And now instead of Just getting to do my work. I feel like I have to greet everyone. Oh, my nightmare. I'm saying hello, introducing myself, answering questions like it's my grad party or something. Except I'm a hired professional with a full team behind me, a team in need of direction and tasks that should already be happening. I'm like, have like stress sweat for her. Like the feeling of like my install not getting done and all these movers are here and all these people are here, like, get out. Oh my God. And then because everything we're doing is upstairs, people naturally start drifting up to, quote, take a look. And once they're up there, they don't really leave. They're leaning against the wall, chatting, sticking their heads in the door to check out the progress. Much of the time in the way of my workers and picture us trying to install a full floor, furniture being lifted up the stairs, things being unwrapped, pieces getting placed, and then picture random people loitering around laughing and drinking mimosas. Or I fully in the path of my movers. How they couldn't read the room, I'll never know. The mother in law was getting particularly in the weeds, bringing an unending stream of questions and so kindly offering her thoughts on placement. As if we hadn't spent hours deliberating on these rooms individually already or weren't being paid as the professionals to be there. Some guy who had earned earlier been bothering my movers about the right way to carry a heavy wooden console came into the master bedroom while we were in the thick of unloading and started making jokes about, quote, better not look like this forever. As I was sitting there sweating, trying to deal with a broken side table, I almost lost it then and there. From their perspective, it was a fun day and a big event to celebrate from mine. I was on the verge of tears. It got to a point where I had to pull the client aside and make something up. I said that with everything happening, the movers on the stairs, furniture coming in, it might be best if we could keep the main areas clear, just from a safety standpoint, which was honestly true. She said she understood and that she'd let everyone know, but it didn't really change anything. Everyone was already a little tipsy and would step out for a bit and then drift right back in. Ultimately we just had to work around these people. My movers were so annoyed, which by the way, I can only imagine, and I remain baffled on how that they ever thought this was a good idea, didn't ask me in advance and refused to read the room throughout the day. I now have a clause in my contract about having spaces kept clear of people on install day and letting me know in advance who will be on site while it's happening. And I highly recommend all designers listening do the same. Yes, I would agree.

[B]

Reasons for client termination. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What do you do when you're installing and you're like, I guess I have to fire my client.

[B]

I'm installing their house?

[A]

I mean, it's a little too late. I. Wow. I would have not handled that well. I would have had to go outside to take some deep breaths is what I'll say.

[B]

I can confess that's never happened to me. Thankfully,

[A]

it has also never happened to me. I've had, I would say occasionally, sometimes most of the house is installed, but one piece is whatever, stuck on a boat coming from England or something, and it has to go in later. Sometimes we will have people be like, oh, I'm not really sure about that. But you just have to be like, okay, thanks. Just ignore it. And if the client says something, that's when you deal with it. But there's always gonna be, like, unsolicited opinions. But a party is an entirely different thing.

[B]

Yeah, I'd say the. The. The client party after the reveal is another story. Yeah.

[A]

As you should do. I mean, that's the thing.

[B]

I'm interested in those reviews.

[A]

Yeah, I completely agree. Okay, well, penance for these people again, I think that maybe she already did it. She already sort of fixed what was the crux of the issue. Maybe the penance for the client.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I'm trying to think of something that's not too intense because, like, I ultimately don't think they were, like, trying to be annoying, but they just were. They just. They succeeded.

[B]

Hmm. I think the client's mother in law refuses to leave the house and moves into the guest suite.

[A]

That is perfect. That is the penance, don't you think? Exactly. Yes.

[B]

If you want to give them to opinions that. She hasn't asked for

[A]

that.

[B]

I love your guest room so much. I'm staying.

[A]

That's the best penance I've ever heard. That's excellent. I. No notes. I have no notes. Excellent. And for the designer. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe beef up that contract. And I also think it sounds like maybe this person was young, because when I was young, I did this too. And now I've just gotten to the point where I feel like I've learned how to be very straightforward and clear with clients without being combative to say Like, I'm a business person. You understand and respect me. So let us do the job that you paid us for. You will have a better end result. Sort of making it about them, I think, is something that has helped me. Because if I'm like, it will not go how you want it to go. If there's a bunch of people in this house, and then that will sort of be on you. That, I think is something that is helpful. It's a helpful tool in your tool belt to have with clients.

[B]

Yeah, I think that. And the absolute meltdown I might throw on standing on the stairs if they didn't listen,

[A]

that would have been my end result for sure.

[B]

You've never seen me in hysterics, but I'm about to. But you're about to.

[A]

You're about to. I really relate to that. Remember when I said Designer Receiving wasn't a sponsor and I just genuinely wanted to share how wonderful they are? That was true. But this episode is now officially sponsored by Designer Receiving. They work exclusively with interior designers to handle everything from receiving an inventory to storage and installation. But what truly sets them apart is how much they care and go out of their way to make sure every project goes smoothly. They're organized, tech forward and people focused, building genuine relationships with the designers they work with. If you want a partner who truly has your back, Designer Receiving is it. Check them [e-mail]. I have a couple questions for you, and then we're gonna let you go. You've been doing this for a long time. What are some things that you are glad are a staple of interior design and have carried through the time that you've been? And what are some things that you're like, thank God I'm never gonna see that again.

[B]

Well, shag carpet can never come back. I hope that's a great one.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

[B]

You know, I try to be aware of trends. I try not to indulge in them. And I'm generally gratified in going back to do refreshes on projects that I rarely. I rarely walk into the room and wince thinking, like, what was I thinking? Right. And we're actually touching up some interiors that we did 15, 16 years ago right now. I mean, I don't want to pat myself on the back, but I think that they still have currency, and I guess I'm glad to have never really indulged in trends in a immediate and visceral way. I tend to look at things, you know, when things get too hot. That's when I figure it's time to,

[A]

time to move on, time to get out.

[B]

I'm thrilled to see brown furniture coming back because I think it's eternal. I think that, you know, I think that especially neoclassic antiques never, never die in terms of having currency. I also think that a little bit of black still makes sense. Every room better. Or a little bit of chocolate brown.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I felt that way for a long time. And, and I, and I like matching lampshades unless they need to be overtly mismatched.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, gosh, I'm glad for that. But mostly, you know, I'm, I'm glad that we've had the good luck to have a long term stream of clients that have kept us busy.

[A]

I mean, definition of success.

[B]

Yeah, we used to always, we've always forecasted our future business very carefully. And it's just been in the last few years that we've been able to say, wow, we're really going to be busy next year and the year after. Earlier in business, you're like, okay, things look good for the next three months and then if the phone doesn't ring, we die.

[A]

Oh no, what are we gonna do?

[B]

But it's kind of cool to be at a point where I know what, I know the creative challenges I'm gonna have for next year. And I'm starting to think about the ones that follow after that. So I'm certainly grateful to have a good stream of work.

[A]

Well, and I'm sure you do better work because you have time to really think through all of the different issues that come up with individual projects and really think through, like, what is truly the best, most creative way to do this. The luxury of time, I think, is something that is really undervalued in interiors.

[B]

Yeah. I think, well, I think, gosh, that cuts so many ways. Yes. I love being able to sleep on projects and to dream on them and to let them evolve in my brain that I would call marinating.

[A]

Sure. Yes, absolutely.

[B]

And every project is better for a little time marinating. I also think the projects are better for, in time after installation, that a really good project takes a year or two to mature after the installation. Because I think too, the best interiors really tell the client's story and we emulate their story. We sometimes amplify their story, sometimes we fake in the pieces of the story we don't understand. But I would say any good interior a year after delivery starts to feel real to me.

[A]

That's so interesting.

[B]

Not just patina but there's layers. And even if we're supplying it all, it all just still needs to kind of. There's always finishing touches that need to roll in or, you know, maybe a few more art purchases that the client, you know, has directed. And so that the paintings in the room are theirs, not, like, staged or whatever. The pieces acquired under advisement from their designer or their art consultant or however that plays out. Yeah. I think time is our friend on many levels. And certainly having enough time to build beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. Because things take time.

[B]

We do so many projects that are really time sensitive, and I've never wanted to look back and take an inventory of all of the things that could have happened had we had more time. But the best projects, a lot. A generous amount of time to come together. Our longest project took eight years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when you were done, were you. How did you feel? Were you sad? Were you great? How did you feel?

[B]

You know, I kind of feel the same at the end of every project.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

My head's so into it that I have to ask other people if it's any good.

[A]

Yeah. I really get that.

[B]

I can't see it anymore. I can't see it.

[A]

You're so close to it at that point.

[B]

I can't see it objectively in any way. I have to bring people in that I trust to say, how do you feel about this? Because to me, the red flags only come when I see something that doesn't live in my head, that there's something in that. Because I have every inch of every space memorized in color and texture and placement, and I'm scanning our installations, looking for something that doesn't meet my expectations. But then I finish a room or a house or an estate, and I'm like, yep, that's what I wanted it to be. But that's all I can see it

[A]

for the satisfaction of. That is. I mean, there's something to be said for that, though, that is.

[B]

No, it's great. I mean, it hasn't. At least I'm not looking at it saying like, wow, this should have been better.

[A]

Yeah, that would be much worse. That would be much worse.

[B]

Holy crap. I didn't do this, right? No, that's never happened to me, thankfully. But. But I'm endlessly going in and saying, shouldn't, you know, should we tweak this? Should we tweak that? Could it be just a little better? You know, but, yeah, that's.

[A]

I think that is what probably makes you excellent. Not probably. You are excellent at your job. And it's one of the things that I think probably helps you with that I have what they call just right ocd, and it affects a lot of my life, but it definitely has helped me with my career because things need to be just so. Just right.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

Okay. You emphasize the value of travel in your life as well as in your work and business, even offering your employees sabbaticals in order to enrich their design mindset. Can you tell us more about that?

[B]

It's the best thing I ever did.

[A]

Wow. What a testimony.

[B]

Well, my grandparents taught me to travel. My mother taught me to travel. It's a multi generational kind of carryover ethos in that our families always valued human experience over the material, which is kind of ironic that I ended up being a decorator, because you can't get much more material than that.

[A]

You do both. It's okay.

[B]

But I managed to carry the travel banner forward into. Into my generation as well. But it's jet fuel for my imagination, for my creativity, you know? And I think that any designer who has traveled the world is a better designer as a result of it. But when I was turning 40, I had a second office in Los Angeles, primary office here in Chicago. I was spending 150 nights a year in a hotel room in LA.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

My partner was traveling as well as a consultant, and something had to give. We were getting pinched on vacation time, and I kind of put my foot down and I reorganized my firm at 40 and brought in the head of design ahead of interior architecture and a business lead and basically threw down the mantle, which was that I'm going to travel 12 weeks a year at a minimum.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

And it's your responsibility to make it happen.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that was 22 years ago.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

My little hissy fit worked.

[A]

Yeah, it did. Wow. I'm about to throw one, too.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, ultimately, the business has evolved around that particular passion. My studio is extraordinary about scheduling their work to coincide with my travel schedule. And I do travel sometimes with clients as a source of inspiration for them. Actually, the project on the COVID of my book is a. A project in Florida on the Gold coast that I designed after taking a pair of clients to Morocco, which is one of my favorite places.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I think I've been there maybe six times.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I took them to Morocco. They wanted to see it through my eyes. And then we designed this very contemporary house around the principles of a Moroccan Riyadh.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because actually, the climate challenges in Morocco and Florida are quite similar.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot to be drawn from that archetype.

[A]

I would say that Morocco is the single most inspiring place I've ever been. Easily.

[B]

It is something that drives me in travel is this kind of absurd sense of time travel. And I love that you can walk into. You can walk into the souk in Fez and honestly feel like you've been transported back to the year 800, 100%, you know, oxcarts. And I mean, it's insane. And I love that sense. I've had a long standing fascination with Papua New guinea for the same reason. And I've had the luxury of traveling there. And it is. You're dealing with civilizations that are just miles apart from each other, but have evolved completely independently without any communication, except for maybe an occasional war between the clans. But they don't even share the same language. There's no roadways that connect them. It's honestly like traveling through time to a place that doesn't exist anymore, yet it does. That fascinates me.

[A]

Yeah, that is fascinating.

[B]

And also, I'm a really avid collector of ethnographic art. And so visiting cultures for whom the objects of their culture tell story. That's very gratifying to me.

[A]

Yeah, I completely agree. So when you were 40, you reorged, but did that also include your employees taking sabbaticals? When did you bring that in?

[B]

Sabbaticals came up just a few years ago. I have a wonderful coo, Daniel Paul, and he understood that that was kind of a vision of mine. It's really what I said earlier that any designer who's traveled the world is a better designer. And most of our clients are extremely well traveled. And some of our clients have come to me because. Because I travel, and that makes us simpatico. But I. I felt like I wanted the. My travel ethos to be more symmetric within our organization. And I wanted. I've always wanted to walk the walk, but I, you know, I know any client is better served by having a designer who's been to Paris, who's been to Rome, who's. Who's seen the world, and that makes better. And so why not give them the opportunity to do that?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And maybe in some ways, it gives me a pass for being gone half the time, you know, if they get to. If they get to sample as well. So he came back to me with a plan, and it was remarkably affordable. Surprisingly affordable.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so, yes, every five years, every employee gets a month sabbatical, plus a travel stipend to make sure that they can Afford Sabbath said sabbatical.

[A]

Wow, Tom, that's incredible.

[B]

Well, I mean, that was one of the things we were trying to problem solve. What happens if a well meaning employee has a kid that gets sick three months before their sabbatical and they, you know, what are they looking at? Staycation because they suddenly don't have the funds. That doesn't seem fair. And I never wanted the idea of a sabbatical to be a burden on anyone financially. So, you know, we kind of thought, well, if we're going to ask them to do it or offer, they should do it, but also help them pay for it. And so I think we've had now six or seven employees qualify for sabbatical. It's a program that's been up for about two, two and a half years. We just ask them to please not sit their butt in a chair on the beach. That's not what it's there for. It's there for them to enrich their lives in a way that enriches their career. That's all we ask. And then when they get back from said sabbatical, we want them to report back to the family, the office to tell us about their experience and hopefully how it relates to their work. And yeah, I think it's a very competitive marketplace for talent and we're constantly trying to find the best set of benefits that we can possibly create for our employees, which is also a big change in this business. We've talked about massive change.

[A]

You're lucky to be here.

[B]

Exactly. No insurance, no benefits, no nothing. My gosh. Now we have 401ks and health benefits and eyeglass benefits and pet benefits and we have a wellness stipend.

[A]

I have to level up. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. The other thing that actually I'm very excited about, we also have professional coaching as a benefit for all employees. Our C suite executives, as you would say, have all had the benefit of executive coaching. And the same thing I was like, if it's good for us, how can it not be good for the rest of us? And so we've actually now got a. I think we're on our fourth class of executive coaching.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

We have a coach that we work with on a corporate agreement and she can only take so many people at a time. So I think we're allowed four slots. But we ask our employees to sign up. It's a 12 week minimum. It's not like a, you know, it's not a short term self help line. And so they enroll for a, it's a weekly thing. They get Home. They're welcome to do it during working hours, but it's basically like weekly employment therapy. And I found executive coaching and therapy to be, you know, cousins. And actually our top level executive coach is a former therapist. I think really good executive coaches have a background in therapy and psychiatry or psychology.

[A]

Wow. Your retention must be outstanding.

[B]

Well, our retention is our currency.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

When we work with these families and clients, long term, institutional knowledge is everything.

[A]

Well said. Yep.

[B]

And for them to be working with teams that are familiar is very important. And it is so hard to find really talented people. I think you just have to do everything you can to make sure that you're retaining them.

[A]

Yeah. That is very admirable. Cause to your point, there are so many people in this industry who I think sometimes say, like, well, this is how it's always been, so this is how I'm gonna do it. And that, I think is hurting the industry at large because not everyone feels that way. That unpaid internships are appropriate and free work and all these things that a lot of us had to do to come up in the industry. I certainly don't feel comfortable with it. I've had people be like, I will sweep your floors for free. And no, that makes me so. That. Never say yes to that. So uncomfortable. So it's admirable.

[B]

Yeah. Even interns get paid. I can't stand the idea of someone working for us for nothing.

[A]

Why? Because we're making money. So that would be crazy. That's crazy.

[B]

If I'm paying nothing, I feel like I can ask nothing of them.

[A]

Amen. Amen.

[B]

Yeah. I think when I started this business, I wanted to change that model, which was that if you wanted to be successful, at least in a financial perspective, if you wanted to be financially successful, you had to start your own business and hang out your own shingle. And that seemed to me like a failing proposition because then about. About the time any designer becomes worth their salt, they're bailing to do their own thing. And we're design partners as the big letters in our name because we wanted to be able to bring people up from within. I have now two business partners, both of which came up within our organization. Certainly the executive coaching is part of that. We're trying to help our people mature in their careers so that hopefully one day they'll want to become a partner in the firm, and hopefully one day they'll be deserving of being a partner in the firm. In the meantime, I want to raise them to be high functioning and ethical, because who wants a future partner who is neither of those things. I agree. Let's get real about it.

[A]

Yeah. It works for both sides, I think.

[B]

I think it works for both sides. This is. You know, I'm not being generous for no reason. No, I mean, truly, I. This is. It's not generosity. Those are investments, you know, in human capital, and they're tremendously important. And I want to be thought of by the people around me as, you know, as thinking with a bigger head in the bigger picture of things.

[A]

Yep. I mean, clearly, you are.

[B]

It's all a desperate attempt to be loved by the people who work for me.

[A]

Tattoo that on my forehead. Okay. You say that water is the source of your inspiration. Are you a water sign?

[B]

I'm not a water sign, actually. I'm a Gemini.

[A]

That shocks me.

[B]

Yeah. No, I'm a Gemini.

[A]

What about water is so inspiring to you?

[B]

Well, if you've read my book, I grew up on the water. I grew up sailing. I grew up with my own. I had my own little book boat as a kid, and it's adorable. Took me on all sorts of adventures. And later, as a teenager, my father was a sailor and had a racing sailboat, and I spent a lot of time on the water with him. I can't imagine living. Not next to a body of water. I can't imagine living. Maybe this makes me spoiled. I can't imagine living in Chicago without a view of the water.

[A]

I mean, it's go live in Des

[B]

Moines if you're not going to see the water. Yeah. No. It has literally taken me around the world. It is the reason why I go places. I'm a really avid diver. I've done. I think, last time we checked, I've done almost 700 dives. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And it's literally taken me around the world. One of the yachts that we designed was designed specifically for diving, and I got to spend a tremendous amount of time diving around the planet on it. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. Incredible.

[B]

But. And it's. I mean, honestly, I would probably just do yacht interiors for the rest of my life if given my choice, because it's an excuse to get me closer to the water. But, yeah, it is. Metaphorically and physically. It's a through current in my life.

[A]

I love that. Okay, this is my final question. I've heard you only upholster in performance fabrics. Can you explain the thought process behind that?

[B]

Well, I think that's a huge exaggeration.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. Talk to me about this, because I'm curious. I'm so curious about this.

[B]

Well, I think it's actually a source of liberation for designers because now we can sell white sofas without our fingers crossed behind our backs telling you how maintainable they are. And it's a value proposition we discuss with our clients. You know, performance fabrics are more expensive than some others, but I want our interiors to be maintainable. I mean, I want them to be deeply comfortable. I want them to be maintainable. I want them to last. I want to be able to go back in 15 years and think, wow, this still really held up. Looks relevant. Right? And really held up. And I think that the use of those fibers has come so far in just the last few years. It keeps getting better, and now it's really bridged the gap. You know, we used to repurpose outdoor fabrics for interior use. Now I think most of the major mills are coming out with fabrics that are kind of either or so much.

[A]

Indoor. Outdoor. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. But anybody who would tell you that you can use that performance velvet on an outdoor chaise is fine.

[A]

I mean, it's just not. It's just. Yeah, it would be a horrible idea.

[B]

However, if you did want ivory velvet and on a sofa and you have kids, you know, performance velvet is exactly the ticket. Yep. And, yeah. So I love it in that sense. I'm not a snob in terms of fibers. When it makes sense. A beautiful white sofa. Possible.

[A]

Love it, love it, love it. The CTI tagline, my firm's tagline is interiors that make you feel what is something that made you feel recently. It doesn't have to be interiors related, but it can be.

[B]

Gosh. What gives me feels is I am just starting to dig into the planning of a big trip to India next winter.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it's been on my. It's been on my list for a quite some time. And the time is now to start planning that journey, and I'm super chuffed about it.

[A]

It's your first time going to India?

[B]

It is my first time doing a big trip to India. I've been to the Andaman Islands, India. I have not been to the continent itself. My brother lived on an ashram in India for a number of years. My mother lived on an ashram in India for a short time.

[A]

Oh, my God. Can you come back on the POD and we'll just talk about you? Cause I feel like we also need that episode. I have so many questions.

[B]

You know, I do have. I'm very lucky to have an interesting family.

[A]

Yeah, clearly. It sounds like it. Okay.

[B]

They are not Boris. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Obviously not. I've had the best time with you, Tom. Thank you so much for doing this with us.

[B]

Pleasure.

[A]

Last thing, where can we find you?

[B]

Tomstringer.com is the perfect. Is the pathway in. Yeah.

[A]

And I mean Google you people will. It's easy to find. Yeah.

[B]

It's easy to find us. Yeah.

[A]

I highly doubt anyone listening doesn't know who you are, so I have a feeling that no one's gonna need to look you up.

[B]

Well, I hope we've reached a wider audience. Yeah. It's been fun chatting with you.

[A]

So fun chatting with you. Thank you all so much for listening. And only a couple more episodes before we are done for the seasons. So please, please, please review us. Only if it's a good review. No, I'm kidding. But please. And also rate, subscribe all the things so we can come back for next season. Okay. Until next week. Peace be with you.