I Confess... Labor Stalled My Install

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer - Episode Summary

Podcast: Confessions of an Interior Designer
Episode: I Confess... Labor Stalled My Install
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Amy Vermillion (Founder, Amy Vermillion Interiors, Charlotte, NC)
Date: March 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the behind-the-scenes realities of luxury interior design, focusing on career journeys, risk-taking, emotional labor, and “install day” chaos—including a now-legendary story of a boss quite literally going into labor mid-install. Host Caroline and her guest, industry veteran Amy Vermillion, share personal confessions, dissect listener stories, and reflect on the joys, absurdities, and trials that define the profession. The conversation is candid, hilarious, and rich with wisdom for insiders and design enthusiasts alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amy’s Design Origin Story

(Timestamps: 00:47 – 14:50)

• Amy grew up outside Chicago with frequent museum trips fostering a love for history and art. Her exposure to furniture, antiques, and design came organically from her family’s lifestyle.
• On generational attitudes: Amy highlights how her parent's generation reused and rearranged furniture, instilling a value for timeless pieces over trends.
• Quote: “My mom was forever moving around furniture. We had my grandmother's antiques... They just moved things around.” (02:19, B)
• Early jobs taught her technical skills but also the need for resilience. She’s frank about the “pay your dues” culture and the grind of getting that first break.
• Shared the humbling—but ultimately rewarding—transition from the safety net of her first job to building her own firm, emphasizing risk, resilience, and emotional highs and lows.

2. The Emotional and Practical Risks of Running a Design Business

(Timestamps: 14:54 – 19:02)

• Design involves constant risk-taking, not just financially but in relationships, creativity, and project management.
• Past economic downturns required adaptability: from “full house only” projects to “do you need a pillow?”
• Quote: “Designers are lionhearted... you got to be scrappy and you got to climb and be resourceful.” (16:25, B)
• The importance of protecting work-life boundaries and learning to “ride the wave” when the market or client needs shift.

3. Choosing Clients and Learning to Say No

(Timestamps: 19:02 – 26:19)

• Both Amy and Caroline stress the importance of selective client onboarding—a discovery process for both parties.
• Trust and personal connection matter as much as budgets; red flags, even with big budgets, are now deal-breakers.
• Shared wisdom from designer Celery Campbell: every new project takes you away from something (family, personal life), so it must be worth that trade-off.
• Quote: “Anything that I take on takes me away from the things I love most. Is it creative, will it feed your soul, is it interesting, do you like the client?” (21:50, B recounting Campbell)

4. Managing Client Emotions and Decision Fatigue

(Timestamps: 26:19 – 30:24)

• Clients often hesitate or change their minds, not out of distrust of the designer but lack of self-confidence during life transitions.
• Establishing firm boundaries and clarity in contracts (e.g., decision maker clauses) can prevent costly mistakes and drawn-out decisions.
• Quote: “Our sofa is not going to fix what's going on inside—either a marriage or a family with health problems...” (27:35, B)
• Caroline offers strategies for proactively reading client signals and ensuring meetings are inclusive for all stakeholders.

5. Mistakes, Industry Standards, and Repair Culture

(Timestamps: 33:12 – 34:09)

• Both hosts acknowledge frequent, sometimes expensive mistakes—these are inevitable but how a designer repairs and handles issues is what builds long-term trust.
• Professionalism is insisted on; poor industry behavior ruins the collective reputation.
• Quote: “If anytime there's a mistake, I would say, you know, this gives me an opportunity to really shine, right?” (33:39, B)

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Notable Listener Confession: Labor Stalls the Install

(Timestamps: 36:43 – 43:23)

• Caroline shares a jaw-dropping story from her early career: During a major install, her boss (nine months pregnant) goes into active labor mid-project.
• With the boss whisked away, a junior Caroline is left to make all decisions—art heights, rug placements—solo for the first time.
• The surreal moment: her boss texting photo approvals from the hospital—in between contractions:
  • Quote: “She responded between contractions.” (42:05, A)
  • Amy: “I can't have an episiotomy right now. For God’s sake, they’re trying to hang the art!” (42:07, B)
• The aftermath is a crash course in leadership, confidence, and adrenaline, leaving Caroline emotional but empowered (“That night, we got the text that she’d had the baby... I remember sitting in my car after we wrapped, just feeling completely wiped, like I’d run a marathon.” 43:05, A)
• Both designers compare finishing big projects to “giving birth” and discuss self-reward rituals—Caroline buys herself jewelry as a “push present.”

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Dealing with Industry Logistics and Vendor Relationships

(Timestamps: 56:44 – 61:24)

• Amy’s advice for managing out-of-town projects: tap design networks for vendor recommendations. Some designers do gatekeep, but most will share.
• Both commiserate over unreliable warehouses and moving companies, urging designers to support “non-assholes” and businesses with integrity.
• Quote: “You can’t be a maniac, do poor work, and have an attitude when I call you. Pick one.” (60:44, B)
• Caroline highlights a new Chicago warehouse run “by designers, for designers”—prioritizing service and civic engagement.

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Closing Segments: Social Media, Trends, and Internet Culture

(Timestamps: 61:49 – End)

• Amy describes her early embrace of Instagram (since 2012), using it authentically to share opinions, highlight design principles, and push back against “Pinterest sameness.”
• The value of authenticity, especially in the age of AI, where real personality stands out.
  • Quote: “Be real and authentic. I think that’s what you’re going to see the shift, especially with AI.” (65:59, B)
• The hosts joke about TikTok trolls and the absurdity of online commentary, sharing their strategies for coping and maintaining boundaries.
• Both celebrate the importance of mentorship, design community support, and “rising tides lift all boats.”
• Closing affirmation: “I think we’re just badass people. I really do.” (47:06, B)

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Memorable Quotes

• “Designers are lionhearted. Anyone that’s been in this business for a while, you gotta be scrappy and you gotta climb and be resourceful.” (16:25, B)
• “Anything that I take on takes me away from the things I love most. Is it creative, will it feed your soul... do you feel a good vibe with the client?” (21:50, B)
• “Our sofa is not going to fix what's going on inside—either a marriage or a family…” (27:35, B)
• “She responded between contractions.” (42:05, A)
• “If anytime there's a mistake, I would say, you know, this gives me an opportunity to really shine, right?” (33:39, B)
• “Be real and authentic. I think that’s what you’re going to see the shift, especially with AI.” (65:59, B)
• “You can’t be a maniac, do poor work, and have an attitude when I call you. Pick one.” (60:44, B)
• “I think we’re just badass people. I really do.” (47:06, B)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:47 – Amy’s design roots and career beginnings
• 14:54 – The risk and resilience required in design
• 19:02 – How and why to say “no” to clients
• 26:19 – Navigating client emotions and decision-making
• 33:12 – Handling mistakes and professionalism
• 36:43 – Legendary “labor on install day” confession
• 43:23 – Reflections on work-life balance and rewards
• 56:44 – Sourcing vendors out-of-market and industry standards
• 61:49 – Social media authenticity, online culture, and closing thoughts

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Engaging Takeaways

• The realities of luxury design are equal parts strategic, emotional, and unpredictable.
• True success requires risk management, self-knowledge, and the courage to say “no.”
• Strong designer community networks—both online and off—are essential for career growth.
• Authenticity wins over perfect curation, especially on social media.
• Legendary war stories (like installs interrupted by childbirth) forge designers’ confidence and connection to their craft.
• Self-recognition and small rituals matter—celebrate wins, even the messy ones.

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Where to Find Amy Vermillion

• Instagram: @amyvermillioninteriors
• TikTok: Amy Vermillion Interiors (Amy jokes it’s the “wild west” — bring kindness!)
• Website: Amy Vermillion Interiors

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the unfiltered realities of interior design, and a reminder that laughter, perspective, and community are just as essential as talent and taste.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Amy Vermillion, designer and founder of Charlotte based Amy Vermillion Interiors. Amy is recognized for her expertise in renovation and new construction and her mastery of color, texture and scale. Her work has been celebrated regionally and nationally, featured in the New York Times magazine and she's a two time contractor of the year award winner and I'm so happy to have her on. So excited. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

I'm so excited to be here. Oh, it's going to be great. I feel like a lot of designers will know you because you have a big presence on social and that's certainly something I want to get into as we go. But I want to know all the nitty gritty. Tell us how you got here.

[B]

Well, how much time do you have? Because, you know, I'm an old dog. So, I mean, my story's a little bit longer.

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

Let's see. As you know, I was born and raised outside of Chicago. And so we're fortunate that we can go to the museums, we can look at the architecture. And my parents were very big on taking us to museums and showing us things. And you know, my dad and I used to have these dates where we would go to the museums together, which was nice because it was like I could just be with my dad, you know. And I think as my dad was into it, like that made me into it until I really loved it. And he explained to me, like, different architecture. Now he was not in design, he was in advertising, but he worked downtown. And my mom would put me on the train as a little tyke. And I would literally, I mean, can you believe it? I would get off the train. I know. You cannot do that now. And you better rest in the old days. And we would go to his office and then we would have lunch on top of the Wrigley Building. There was like a private club.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

I know. And he would explore complaints. We all these things. We've been on that Wendella boat ride a million times on the architecture tour.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

It was just, you know, it was great. Yeah, the best. We live in. You live in the best city in the world for architecture. I don't care what anyone says.

[A]

Yeah, I really do you know?

[B]

So I always loved it and I always loved the history of things and all of that. My mom was, you know, she was always forever moving around furniture. And we have my grandmother's antiques. And you know, it's funny, I was thinking about it like our generation of parents never really bought new things. They would just move things around.

[A]

I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, they bought something really nice. They kept it for 30 years and we rearranged the living room a hundred times with all the same things all the time.

[B]

Yes, yes. It's so true. And so growing up with antiques, and they were mostly passed down from my grandmother and my great aunt, but my parents had some modern art and some things. I mean, my parents had like a step down living room with white shag carpeting and like an art wall, if you can believe it, and mixed them with antiques.

[A]

It's pretty fabulous.

[B]

And so, you know, my mom kind of gave me a love of. Yeah, that kind of thing. And also two old movies. Like she and I would watch old movies together and I couldn't concentrate on the movie. I would be staring at like the chair or like, I'd be like, what is that over there? And anybody that's interested in design should watch old movies from like the 20s and 30s.

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

To really start seeing these amazing things like dinner at 8 and Top Hat and all these amazing stages. And so I just always loved design. I went to school for design and I went to Illinois State University, which is a fighter credit school. And no one cares about that. No one cares about ASID or any of that stuff. You know what I mean?

[A]

Not anymore.

[B]

It's more about your chop. No, it used to be a big deal, but, you know, I was raised on, you know, Mario Bora and Mark Hampton. It was, I feel, the golden age of interior design.

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

Agree. I hope we can get back there, you know, and get away from this Pinterest style of designing where it's like everybody looks the same. And the clone stuff that I can't handle. I really hope we get back there. I'm starting to feel it, especially with the younger designers being brave and like taking a step out and being like, no, this is what we love. We want to curate, we want to collect. So I really, really hope we get back there and people take risks, more risks instead of staying. So, you know, much the same. But I went to school for design. My first job was with a crazy cabinet maker, but he's long past. I think the NDA's run out there? Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. He was like 900 back in 1889 or whatever. They had a studio in Kenilworth on Green Bay Road, and we did super, super high end kitchens, like crazy small bone kitchens and kitchens that no one was doing and libraries and bathrooms and things like that. So I kind of stepped my put into renovations there. I learned how to do CAD after I graduated college, if you can believe it. And that was back in the day when they had plotters. Oh, yeah. It was wild. And I mean, I could tell you college stories for days.

[A]

So you learned hand drafting in school?

[B]

Hand drafting in school. I had an architecture professor. I was one of the only girls in the architecture. And like, I would go home like crying and being like, you know, like Ryan Brown, he. I still remember his name. He was tough. And a lot of my friends dropped out of the program because he would be like, line weight, line weight, line weights. And so, you know, no, it's like nobody even cares about line weights now. It's like, you know, everything. No one gives a.

[A]

About line weights.

[B]

No, nobody gives a. About line weight.

[A]

Important in school. I agree.

[B]

I mean, so key. So key. And. But it was cool because you did learn. And I do think people should know how to sketch because it really. I feel like sketching is. And I still sketch. And then, you know, Kelsey puts things in the cad. But I need to. I need to have that pen going or that pencil going, whatever I'm doing, and be able to stand on a job site, you know, and be like, you know, your crown molding is going to have this profile and this, that and the other. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the trades get the idea. And if you just stand there and you're like, let me pull up a picture. I'm not sure what that. You know, I think people need to know how to sketch if you're going to get to a certain level.

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, And I graduated, did the things, got this job. And I mean, it was not the best. It was like very technical. I didn't stay that long. I probably learned much. I learned a ton and things that I didn't even know existed. Even after a four year degree, Right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then I went to work at the Merchandise Mart and Caroline, I was making $6 an hour and thank God I was still living with my parents four to five hours a day. I mean, let's not, let's not make her full time because we would have to maybe give her like insurance, you Know what I mean? It's like, way to go. I'm staying in Glenview for the rest of my life. So I would take the ln every morning for my four to five hours. And I worked in a showroom and we had multi line showroom. But I learned that end of the business, which was jobbers, mills, fabric, you know, CFAs, what that was like. I got to interact with designers and see how they moved, you know, and when something would go on back order, I'd be the first person to raise my hand, be like, let me find you a substitute. And designers were constantly saying to me, you know what? These are really good substitutes. You should be a designer. I'm like, duh. Like, could you hire me? You know, I'll do anything. I'll mop your floor. I'll do anything.

[A]

Matter of fact, yeah, as a matter

[B]

of fact, I'm free. I'm free. If you pay me $656.50, I will consider. Yeah, it won't even be a lateral move for me, you know, so. But I'm of the feeling like you got to do what you got to do to pay your dues. And it's not about some sort of karmic system of you have to do this in order to get this, it's just to get the experience.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I mean, I am so grateful for the jobs that I had, even though I would be like, what am I doing with my life? And so I. One of the designers said to me one day, you know, if you're looking for a job, you should go down the ASID office, which was also on, I think the thick floor back in the day, put your resume in the. This is when we have paper resume. That's when you put your resume in the file. And then designers that were hiring would look in the file.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know, they probably fax them over back in the day. You know, who's got a fax?

[A]

I kind of want to bring the file back. I feel like that would be great.

[B]

Yes, it is great. And so that's how designers were finding designers that were qualified or even graduates was in the ASID file. And so I had my resume together. And I mean, think about you as, you know, a Chicago based designer hiring how you could go into that and know, you know, that that person has, you know, a four year whatever instead of like random resumes, right? Yep. I work at a yoga store, but I really want to be a designer.

[A]

I really want to be a designer.

[B]

My desired salary is $125,000. And I don't know how to draw. I'm not sure about this. I don't know anything. I don't know anything. But I love color, and it's fabulous and amazing. You know what I mean? Like, no, I get like, five DMs like that.

[A]

I'm sure you do, too.

[B]

I know you do. Oh, I know you do. I do, too. I do, too. And listen, I always. I respond to every single person because I know what that's like, looking for a job. And I do point them in the right direction, but I'm like, you have to go intern or do something first. Like, you can't just jump into being a junior designer. No, you can't. Especially since, you know, right now you're working at the bank.

[A]

Well, that also tells me they don't know what junior designers do, because you don't have any clue how difficult that job really is and how much knowledge you really need. And of course, we teach them and they learn on the job, but that's a. It's a. I mean, I was a bad junior designer, and I own a design firm, so I feel like it sounds to me a very specific person who, yeah, frankly, has been learning this over a longer period of time. Because there's a lot that comes with being a junior designer.

[B]

A thousand percent. Yes, totally. And so I had this gal who I worked for for a long time, and I loved her so much. She was. Katherine Keys was her name. And I so thank her for the opportunity, looking back. And she pretty much. She had designers that worked for her. And it was really cool, Caroline, because everyone in the firm was autonomous, so, like, they owned the firm, but you had your own clients and you had the sort of leash unleash to go, you know, pick what you wanted. You want this furniture, you want that. No one was looking over your shoulders. I mean, you know, you were responsible if there were mistakes. But, you know, she gave me my first client, and like, she said, hey, I'll be here with you, but I trust you. Jump in the pool and swim.

[A]

How generous.

[B]

I know. So wonderful. God, I love these people so much. And they were really good about letting us sort of spread our wings. And I love the girls, I love the camaraderie. I was married at the time, and my ex husband got an offer to move south. And I thought, well, you know, and it was a really great opportunity for him. And, you know, we were young. We were like, I don't know, 27 or 26. And for me, that's young. And I was like, let's do it, you know? So I left my wonderful job and I moved here. And then I immediately, I was, like, demoted. Like, I went from, like, a corner office with, like, two assistants making good money to be like, hey, can you break down those boxes? I was like, sure, sure. While wearing pantyhose every day and a skirt. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I literally thought to myself, I just F'd my life. Literally. I just F. My life, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, and I was. And I was. It was. It was. It was not great. It was not great. But I stayed there for a little bit, and then I got another job with another small design firm. And she was great, but it wasn't really what I wanted to be doing. And so one of my great aunts died, and she left me a little dough. And it was enough to. I was divorced this time. It was enough for me to pay off my credit card. Hell, yeah. And I thought to myself, you know, I'm gonna stay in Charlotte. I'm not moving back to Chicago. Even though, like, that was a real poll. It would have been so easy to go back home. You know, I remember that call with my mom and dad, and they were, you know, I was like crying, like, I don't. I don't know if I should stay. And, you know, I've got this house and I'm trying to pay the house and da, da, da, da. And, you know, my parents were like, well, honey, you can just. You can come back home and, you know, you can have your old room back. And I was like. I was like. All of a sudden, I was, like, drying my tears. I was like, no, I'm good, actually.

[A]

I was like, mary, no, I'll figure it out.

[B]

Little Mary Tyler Moore moment. I was like, nope, I can make it. I can do it. I can get this. And so that's what I did. I, like, paid off the bills and I started my design firm, much like most people at my dining room table, with an IBM Selectric. Wow. And so the way that I got clients was I started, you know, kind of making my way through the ASID list. Like, so I would call people and say, do you need a consultant? And you need whatever. And this architectural designer who. She's so great, she's retired now, said, you know what? We do need someone who. We need someone for our high, high end clients to do their selections. And that was it. Caroline, those are the jobs. Like, those are the door openings. Because from that they were like, oh, do you do I need a sofa too. And you know, or I need a this or I need a that. And so not only was I doing all the construction selections, but I was also starting to do all the furnishings.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so it grew and it grew. And I remember the first time I did a hundred dollar consultation and I got that check from her. You know what I mean? It was just like a one off because I was doing anything I could. Consultations, paint, help, anything I could.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I got in the car and I just cried. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, I wish I had a picture of that first check. Kind of like the first dollar in a restaurant, you know, that they put on the wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I look back on that, I mean, it was such a. It was such a sweet, humble time, you know, typing up my purchase orders, you know, at my kitchen or my dining room table. And like, you know, I've got the TV on in the corner and, you know, I'm working all night to try to catch up.

[A]

It brings me back, too. It's the same. Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There'. There's something special about that first couple months to a year when it's just you. Everything's on you. You're so greedy.

[B]

I just got chills.

[A]

I have no idea what you're doing.

[B]

I just got chills.

[A]

Wait, I do too.

[B]

I just have chills. I have chills like all over my body. Yes.

[A]

It's such a sweet time.

[B]

Bittersweet.

[A]

Because it's so hard.

[B]

Bittersweet.

[A]

But I look back now and I'm like, holy shit, I did that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That feeling is like it carries you forever, you know, and you're able to be like, if I can do that, I can now do this thing.

[B]

Anything, anything. I have chills. You know what's funny is whenever I get the opportunity, like speak to college students or I try to mentor where I can, I tell people there is an enormous amount of risk in this business. And I don't think people really take that. I don't care if you've got tons of financial backing. There is risk in every single thing we do. From the minute we wake up in the morning and start typing out an email, everything is risk. It's risk taking on a client. You're going to be with that client for one year, five years. Right now we have seven previous clients back on our roster. Seven. And we went to see one of our gals the other day and she's like, amy, do you know that you first designed for me 26 years ago? Wow. And I thought, oh, what a testament to you. Yes, that was. I mean, my daughter's 18 and going off to college, and she knew me two names ago. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's crazy. And there were so many times, like, you know, I was there for 2008 and 2009, where we saw, like, clients getting fired on the front page of the newspaper, and we were like, I guess they're not going to do the guest room.

[A]

You know, my God.

[B]

And, oh, yeah, I've. I've ridden the wave. Like, everyone was going out of business, and I was like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? We went from. It was funny because I have a lot of peer groups and, like, friends in the design business. And we were sitting around one day having a cup of coffee, and we were like. It was one day, we were like, we're not going unless we can do a whole house. Literally, the bottom dropped out, and the next day we're like, do you need a pillow? I can reupholster that footstool for you. And that's the thing, is you designers were Lionheart. Anyone that's been in this business for a while, you got to be scrappy and you got to climb and you got to think. You got to be resourceful and be like, okay, I'm not letting this get me down. And it's just that constant sort of wave. And then, of course, Covid and all these other things that we've watched, you know, the geopolitical escape and tariff, it's just like, you just have to ride the wave. And that's what I try to tell people, is, yes, there's a lot of risk, but if you have the stomach for it, it is literally the best gig in the world. Not every day,

[A]

but overall.

[B]

Yeah. There are times when you're like, okay, wow. Well, that's quite a ride where you're, you know, circular thinking at 3 o' clock, o' clock in the morning, like, what am I going to do about this? What am I going to do about this? I will say that experience gives you the big picture, so you can remember.

[A]

It really does.

[B]

I used to just completely crash out over stuff like that, and now I'm like, yeah, right. Don't you look back on.

[A]

You said that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I remember a time when a client wanted me to give them $400 back, and I had the crash out of the century. I. In my Car, like, lost my mind, because at the time. Girl, I get it. $400. $400 was so much, so crucial to me. And they were rich, and I had no money. And I just remember being like, you have a trust fund that's worth $40 million, and you want $400 from me? I was screaming, I called my mom, and she was like, maybe we should think about working for someone else.

[B]

Maybe I can't find a job somewhere else.

[A]

No, I'm not. And you just have to keep moving on. But it is now things will happen that. It would have put me in the hospital when I first started.

[B]

And now I'm like, you just have to go. It's okay. It's okay.

[A]

Things happen. Yeah, but I'm way healthier now.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, me too. But I still will think about things, because, honestly, I really do. My whole, like. And I have a process of taking on clients, right?

[A]

Sure, Sam.

[B]

You gotta meet some criteria. And it's not just financial. There have been quite a few clients over the years that have come to us with a gigantic budget. But I didn't like them.

[A]

Yes, me too.

[B]

And I was like, we have to, like, spend time together. I didn't like the way he talked to his wife. Or, you know, there was some kind of something.

[A]

There's a red flag, something.

[B]

Yes. Or contradict each other in conversation. I'd be like, this is a nightmare. This is a total nightmare. And, you know, if you're going to get on this ride together and there's that trust thing, and you become friends and, you know, hell, I even vacation with one of my clients. Like, this has to be, like, a really good symbiotic relationship.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And, you know, I'll. I'll never forget I was a young mom. Well, I wasn't young because I had my daughter at 40, but I was a mom with a young kid. Yeah. So I had my daughter, and I was just trying to figure out what to do about, like, time management. Right. Yeah. And I would leave her in the morning in her crib. And especially when I was working on private planes, I would have to leave really early in the morning. And there were days I didn't see her awake. And that was, like. It was a lot for me. And I went to a designer event down in ADAC in Atlanta, and Celery Campbell was speaking. And I love when they do those. When they have these great designers come in, because you can really hear about process and stuff. And she had a book signing afterwards. And I've always loved Celery. And this book had, like, a picture of her I'll never forget. I don't know if it was on the inside back cover, but it was like, her children in a bathtub, like, and she was, you know, bathing them and stuff like that. And I said, can I ask you. I probably look like I was absolutely about to have a nervous breakdown, because I was, you know, and I was like. I was like, you know, Celery, I really. I really like you. You know, you're great. I admire you. I'm like, can you just tell me. And all these other designers are like, how do you do your firm? How do you do that? And whatever. And I'm like, how do you. Being mom? How do you split your time? The guilt is insane. Like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything right right now. Like, I'm over here doing this, and I'm over here doing this. And she gave me the greatest piece of advice. And it was funny. Like, 20 years after that, I sat next to her at a dinner party, and I told her this story, and she was like, I cannot believe you remember that? And what she said to me that day, like, I think she could see I was in distress. She kind of, like, put. Reached over the table and put her hand. I mean, I'm a perfect stranger. And she was so kind. And she said, look, the thing about design is it takes so much of us, right? It's not just the time, but it's like our emotional, like, our creativity, our soul, all of it. And she said, when you pick a client, the next person that calls in, you need to look at that project. Like, anything that I take on takes me away from the things I love most. And that would be your daughter or my children or, you know, husbands, friends, parents, whatever it is that you love most. It's. It's like they say whatever you say yes to, you got to say no to something else. And she said, you've. You have to look at every single project. Like, is it creative? Will it feed your soul? Is it interesting? Is it. Do they. Do you feel, like, a good vibe with the client? Do you like the client? Is the budget there? Can you photograph it? Like, and not every project is going to be like that, because sometimes you just have to feed the beast, right? Take the client on. And that's never great. So I've never really forgotten that. And I really do think about that, you know, and even when I talk to a client or go out for a consultation, and my consultations are paid Because. And the reason I do that is I say it's a working meeting. And even if we decide not to work together, you're going to walk with a lot of information. Unless they come to the studio and just want to meet here at the studio just as a hi. A meet and greet. Which we've done that before.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But if I'm coming to your home, which I kind of like to do too, because I want to see what I'm getting myself into.

[A]

Same. We're interviewing you just as much as you're interviewing us.

[B]

Yes, honey, like, I say this all the time to people. This is an interview for both of us.

[A]

1,000.

[B]

Because like I said, you are going to be spending a lot of time with this person. And if you don't like this person off the bat, like, you just don't vibe, you don't gel. Right. Like, and you're like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It's terrible. It's like the worst.

[A]

And you lose money on those jobs.

[B]

Absolutely. And every time their name comes up in the email, you're like, you know, you can't handle it. You know, you're like, like, everything starts to like, shut down. And your body like cold sweat. You're like, you know, I thought we were done there. Just one more thing.

[A]

No. Oh my God. It's always on a Friday feeling. Oh my God.

[B]

Friday at like 5:20. And you're like. Or like a Sunday afternoon when you mistakenly check your email and you're like, really?

[A]

And your heart drops, you know, stomach.

[B]

Oh, I know. And then you're like, I'm just trying to enjoy my shawarma. Like, what are you doing to me? Like, I have dinner plans in a minute. Or like, I just wanted to read my book today. Now, every now I've read the same page 16 times, rehearsing the dialogue that I'm gonna have, trying to fire you with you. What's the word?

[A]

Oh my God, Amy, it's so funny. Cause you're like hitting on everything I wanna talk to you about. Because we're actually in this spot right now. I'm gonna be really honest and vulnerable. We're in a spot where I feel like the economy's in a weird spot. And so people ago would have been calling us for full homes. And like massive projects and multimillion dollars are now calling us for phase one and like $500,000, which is fine, but it's. I'm having to make some really, really tough decisions. And recently there's Been a couple where it's, like, on paper, we should take it. But I have just this, like, innate feeling of, like, this is not going, sweetheart.

[B]

That's all I say. Like, you, you know, go with your gut. I mean, listen, I have a strong faith, and that's where I get my relief from. Like, I don't do anything without asking for a little help and, you know, guide my words. Let me give me some discernment here. Like, help me not to put my humanness in front of, you know, what it is. And. And discernment saves me every single time. And I didn't used to do that. And it got me in hot water. My humanness and my fear of not having enough.

[A]

The scarcity.

[B]

The scarcity fear. And I just don't do that anymore. And there was a period, probably two years ago, I didn't take on any clients for over a year and a half because I had to clean the plate. There were some clients that ew. You know, and we're kind of taking down the energy in the studio, and the work wasn't what I wanted to be working on. And I just had to sort of take a step back and be like, like, what is going on here? Now, when I look back on it, I know that that was during COVID and there was a lot of stuff. And listen, that dribbled on for a long time. It really did. And what I've seen is pre Covid and after Covid is the micromanaging level and the changing their minds and then going back on decisions that they were like, oh, yeah, that's great. Like, and we're getting. We're. Everybody's pricing it up and getting ready to put in front of me to give the approval to send out the proposals. And all of a sudden, we saw the proposals, and someone goes, hey, just wait a minute. Let me. Let me think about that. Can you show me.

[A]

You know, thinking about this, I talked to my friends, and my mom said this, and my neighbor came over, and she mentioned this, and I'm like, I.

[B]

My housekeeper. That's my favorite. My housekeeper said she doesn't like blue. Okay.

[A]

In one world, does that matter? Like, what.

[B]

I know, but here's the thing. Whenever this starts to happen, I had to take a really, like, hard look at it. And what it is, is it's not that they don't trust me. They don't trust themselves. And so when people don't trust themselves and they don't have the confidence to make the decision. Right, they're going to Be. They're always questioning, like, did I make the right choice? And so. So as designers, I feel I lay it out very strongly and I allow for a little bit of movement, but quite frankly, I direct it. And a lot of designers ask me, you know, and we have a great Charlotte design community. They'll call me and say, you're not gonna believe this. What should I do? And, you know, it always comes back to, like, who are you as a designer? Like, who are you as a professional? Don't give them 65 choices. They've already hired you to. To curate. And, you know, just get it down right. Give them a couple. Or however you structure business.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

My business is structured pretty severely, but I found that by being able to just, like, talk with them and be like, what is it about this that's making it so hard for you to make a decision? Like, if we can get underneath that. It's generally not about the color of the sofa or whatever. You know, our sofa is not going to fix what's going on inside. Either a marriage or a family with health problems or a child that's, you know, not doing well, whatever it is. So I try to talk to my clients, be like, what's going on here? Like, because, you know, it seems like we're going down a path where. And then I lay out, if you can't make the decision, X, Y and Z is going to happen, right? Like, we're going to lose that fabric. And when we lose that fabric and we have to go back to the drawing board, all of those other decisions that have not only been made, but ordered, because we have final ordering, once you give us approval, ain't no going back.

[A]

We're done.

[B]

So same, we're done. So those kinds of things, like, I. I just think as a design profession, part of it is. And I hate to say it, but it is holding a lot of hands and explaining the pros and cons, but also listening to people being like, what is it about you don't, like, you know, does it remind you of your, like, grandma's sofa? Like, what?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, do you do that? Or, like, how do you handle that?

[A]

Yes, I do. Two things. One, I wanna touch on the fact that you said it's really not about the thing that they're making a decision on never. And that for some reason, just really connected with me. Because often our clients are in phases of their life, transition phases, and there's very little control. And so they're taking all of the things they Want to control and trying to like, micromanage and over control our. And that to me has just like broken my brain open and been like, oh, okay. I actually feel like I know how to handle this by being like, what's going on? To your point, what's keeping you from being able to make a choice? Is it that you don't really like the options? Because sometimes that's it too. And I will. You know, I feel like once my clients have been with me for a couple months, I can read their faces. Like, I can see the husband is like, not as sure as the wife. And I do a lot of like, like checking in of like. How do you feel? How does this feel? What about this? Not every time? Cause sometimes, you know, they're trading off on decision making.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But that's helped a lot because I feel like sometimes one person in the process doesn't want to say something in the meeting and then I get an email about it later. I'd rather discuss it in the meeting and make a decision there. Get out.

[B]

Get it out.

[A]

Or no, I need to reselect. I don't want an email three days after we've already done the work for the thing you asked for that you changed your mind. And so I feel like, to your point, like digging under there a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Find out what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I've done that. And then they say, well, blah, blah, blah. And we just need a minute. And I'm like, you know what? Take a minute. Exactly. Like, yeah. This is not. This is not brain surgery. This is design. And this is bricks and sticks. Babies. Yep. So it can wait. It's okay. Like, let's regroup in next week. Two weeks, whatever. I will say too, like, do you have a decision maker clause in your contract? We have it in ours. Which is everybody that has a say is at the meeting.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that avoids this thing where, you know, the wife might pick something and it's all great. And you're. That train is going, man. It's left the station, it's going very quickly down the tracks. And then two weeks later, after everything is set and ready to go. And you know too, it's not just. We don't just do the decoration. And I know you're the same way. We got our fingers in a lot of pie. So, like, it's the. Oh, he doesn't like brass. Okay, well, we just ordered our Mac Martin mut, right. From London.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's custom cup. What do we do?

[B]

What are we doing with that? Are we gonna have trivets made? Will there be trivets made for your family for Christmas? Like, what are we doing with that? Isn't that. Is that now like a. A cooling rack for the bake? You know, the school? Like, what are we doing? I, I, yeah, what are we doing? So we. A while back, I started because it was really frustrating. We would do, like, a lot of work, and then, you know, the guy writing the checks would be like, oh, what's that? So the way that we avoid that is we say if you're a decision maker and you get final say on something, you got to be at the meeting. You don't have to be at the initial meetings, but the. The meeting where we sign off on things, you have to be there. And, you know, it's kind of funny if you ask a husband to come to a design me, and they're like, all gung ho by hour two, not even. They're usually 45 minutes. And they're like, they're like, yeah, I've got to, you know, I've got to take a call. A stock trade. That's got to happen. I think the house is on fire. Like, you know, and they're out of there. And then we all look at each other, we're like, bye. And then the wife will always say, thank God. Yeah, bye. And then I'm like, okay, you know, Johnny Applesauce, or whatever your name is, like, are you going? So, are you. Are you good, then with whatever we decide. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that's the answer. But you got it. You got to have the decision makers. I mean, my contract now, I think, is up to seven pages. Wow. Wow. Yeah. All lawyer written. All lawyer written. Just everything. Almost everything in there, you've learned. Yeah.

[A]

Just keep adding clauses.

[B]

We've had the situation. Yeah. Clean up on Aisle 5.

[A]

Typically, those clauses come from something totally.

[B]

I don't want to have 72 more sleepless nights. So, yeah, I don't want to have $400, Caroline.

[A]

Very, very crucial.

[B]

$400.

[A]

Meanwhile, I think there was $3,000 worth of shit I had to pay for yesterday of mistakes. And it's like, whatever. At this point. It is what it is.

[B]

I send you blessings. Blessings and good karma. That's going to come back to you. It really will. That's sometimes. That's the cost of doing business, period, on the story. Because those people, honestly, they will say, you know what? If anytime there's a mistake, I would say, you know, this gives me an opportunity to really shine, right? Yeah. Like somebody screwed up or I screwed up. I'm the first one to be like,

[A]

that's a great way to put it.

[B]

Let me show you what I can do to fix it. You know, I'm going to take care of it. Clients always know we're going to take care of it.

[A]

The problem solving is what matters. Things will happen, mistakes will happen. But how do you fix it? The repair? I mean, in relationships, but also in this industry, the repair is so important and making sure you're going above and beyond. The client's not incurring anything that keeps them happy and they trust you. And. Yeah, it's gonna cost money. It's gonna cost. Like, it does cost money and it sucks.

[B]

It costs money. Yeah.

[A]

But it's part of it.

[B]

And if you dig in and refuse to take care of it, like, I'm sorry, but that's. I have so much to say about unprofessional design behavior. Like. Like, we're up against so much already,

[A]

you know, so much. Like, please stop making a bad name for us.

[B]

I sound like an old person back in our day, but honestly, like walking onto a construction site in the 90s versus now, you know, where. Where I'm trying to prove who I am. Like, you know, hey, little lady, we need a decision on this and the eye rolling and all that. I'm like, meanwhile, I write your checks. Okay, yeah, how about a little respect?

[A]

I hired you.

[B]

Yeah. Let's get in line, open the door. And don't put your. Don't put your hand on the small of my back traveling south because I will literally turn around and clock you. I'm half Sicilian. Don't mess with me. But that's how it was back in the day. I know, I know we're getting off track, but that's. I mean, that's kind of how we are with the ADHD in this office.

[A]

Obsessed with it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can tell you stories. I can tell you stories. Some things I'm not too proud of.

[A]

But listen, same, same. We all have our moments. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic search for a specification at midnight, but I was still managing. Right? Then I tried programa, and I realized I wasn't managing. I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI Web Clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to programa.design and use code CONFESSIONS25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. I want to talk confession. I have to share this story from my early career that's become iconic at my firm. This was back when I was still a junior designer, really green, and we had this massive install at a client's house. I had been on the project along with my boss who owned the firm, and just so happened to be nine months pregnant. To this day, she's one of the most type A people I've ever met and therefore insisted on being there for the installation. As a designer new to my career, I was glad to have her there, but I was definitely concerned about her. So the day starts. Everything's going fine. People bringing in furniture, contractors coming in and out, me running around trying to take care of every little detail. She's somehow up and walking around, directing people like normal, despite being fully pregnant and about to give birth any second. And when I say any second, I mean it. Mid install, her water breaks.

[B]

No. Come on, man. No.

[A]

Hopefully not.

[B]

I knew it. I knew this was hopefully on hardwoods or tile. I would mean, like, walking after cupping my hands, being like, keep it together. Why didn't. Why didn't you wear some plastic pants today? I mean, it's not out. It's not outside of the realm of possibility, ma'. Am.

[A]

You could have gone with Depends.

[B]

Like, damn. You knew it was on the line. I did. And I, like, I started getting uncomfortable. Caroline, to be honest with you, I, like, started getting. I started to sweat. I started to sweat. I don't know if it's a hot flash or just, like, the thought of bodily fluid or just the thought of going into labor on an Holy mole. No, this is not good. This is not good. 91 1.

[A]

No, like, actually, I remember her gasping from the other room and me running in thinking something had broken or gone wrong, which, in a way, it had. It's not like anyone is Trained for this in a design install, which is a great point.

[B]

Probably the worst room of people you

[A]

could be in to be going into labor. Someone grabbed a chair for her to sit on, and I took her phone and called her husband. We all freaked out and tried to make sure she was comfortable, but she was still in work mode, sitting there, timing contractions. What? I know. And also pointing at the moment.

[B]

But, please, that picture is hung too low.

[A]

No, literally. Literally. She's like, can you shift that rug two inches left. Moving things along like she was an inconvenience. You are literally in labor. Please stop talking about rugs. Her due date was actually that week, so we all knew this was a possibility, which is insane, by the way.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

We had kind of joked about it in the days leading up, like, please don't go into labor on install day.

[B]

Ha ha.

[A]

But I don't think any of us actually believed it would happen.

[B]

I'm, like, crying. I mean, this is too much. This is too much. I, like, start to clench. I clench my butt. I'm not kidding. Like, I'm starting to clutch.

[A]

I also do have sweat all over my body.

[B]

Yes. And I'm clenching. I'm clenching.

[A]

Amy.

[B]

Every part of me is like this.

[A]

I'm flying to Charlotte so we can hang out. I, like.

[B]

I swear to God, next time I come to Chicago, which I do come, because I was just home for my class reunion. I'm calling you. I'm calling you. Please. Okay, all right. Let me. Let me. Okay. I'm trying to get it together. I wasn't even there. I don't even know these people. And I feel such an empath response right now. Like, I mean, I'm not kidding. I mean, it's.

[A]

This is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When her husband arrived, we helped her to the car, and right before she got in, she looked at me and said, I trust you, and you can handle this, and told me to text if I needed anything.

[B]

All right. Okay.

[A]

The text. If I need anything is a little bit, but that's fine. I would probably do the same thing, if I'm being honest. And then they drove away.

[B]

Not good.

[A]

I stood there in the driveway, like, cool, cool, cool. When I walked back inside, I realized that everyone was waiting on me for instruction because the show must go on. The install still had to happen, and the responsibility was on me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I kind of snapped into survival mode, which, like, props to this designer. She's new in her career. Sounds like her first big promotion.

[B]

Awful.

[A]

Oh, boy. Okay. I started delegating Like I'd seen her do a hundred times. Faking confidence that I certainly didn't feel I was internally spiraling, but outwardly pretending I had it together. Honestly, I would be outwardly spiraling. So I really.

[B]

I mean, I'm spiraling, and I'm not even involved. I'm not even involved.

[A]

Neither of us can handle this, and we weren't there.

[B]

I know. I want to call her or send her a get well card. Like, I don't even know what to do right now. We're fix it people. That's what we do for a living. We're fix it people. And pick me.

[A]

That's such a good point. There is a million tiny decisions she normally would have made that suddenly fell to me. Art heights, pillow combos, which rug pad to use, where to center the coffee table. Little things that don't sound hard until you have 20 people asking you questions all at once. But weirdly, after an hour or two, it started to feel manageable. I knew the design. I'd been on the project for months. I just hadn't realized how much I actually knew until I didn't have a safety net. So I just kept moving things along, sending her photos like, does this look right? While she was literally at the hospital,

[B]

she responded between me, she's doing Lamage. She's like, move it three inches up.

[A]

She responded between contractions.

[B]

I can't have an episiotomy right now. For God's sake, they're trying to hang the arts.

[A]

Just give me the epidural so I can make it.

[B]

I mean, good God. Unhinged. Unhinged. Listen, I feel crazy for answering a text on vacation. This is taking it. This is one step too far.

[A]

Please, I'm begging you to get to work. Life balance.

[B]

Where's Celery Campbell to help this lady?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

We need her.

[A]

We need her.

[B]

We really do. Oh, my God. All right.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

So she's sending her picture. She's having a baby.

[A]

She respond with thumbs up between contractions, she says, which I really appreciated at the time, but now that I've given birth myself, I realize was insane of me, which is true. By the end of the day, somehow, everything was in place, the house looked great. And that night, we got the text that she'd had the baby. I remember sitting in my car after we wrapped, just feeling completely wiped, like I'd run a marathon.

[B]

Like she had a baby.

[A]

Exactly. Cause she basically did. It became a legendary story at that firm the day my boss went into labor mid install, which, when we finish installs, I get myself a push present. And this could not be more apropos for this.

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm gonna start doing that. You should, Caroline. That's amazing. You should. Oh, what can I buy myself?

[A]

I get myself a piece of jewelry almost every time.

[B]

Sometimes I know I'm looking at your

[A]

bracelet, sometimes shoes, but definitely I'm looking at your bracelet.

[B]

My mom.

[A]

These are actually both from my mom, which I love.

[B]

They look antique. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, they are. But I got this in Morocco for a big project I finished. So, yeah, it's fun. Cause then I get to like my jewelry. Reminds me, you've done this before. You can do this again. We've gotten through all of this, and these clients were thrilled. And, like, this is why you do what you do. So for some people, they're like, you get yourself a gift every job. And I'm like, yeah. So I keep going because I need to.

[B]

I need some.

[A]

Something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

It is. I mean, I really do. I've often said that finishing a client project is like giving birth. And I do feel some. I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I almost feel, like, a little bit like a.

[A]

Yes, I.

[B]

You know, for clients I loved. And, like, I get that, too, Moving through certain phases of the design. Like, right now, I'm working with a great client who's been with me a long time, and she's just letting me do all the things. Like, amazing. You know, I saw Paddling in England, and I said, I. I brought that. I brought that to my cabinet maker, and we need to do linen fold. And everyone looked at me like, come on. I thought we were left that in the 17th century, you know? And it's like I'm feeling myself move through this project. And I got in the car the other day, I stopped by there and talked to them. It was after work, and I was on my way home, and I thought to myself, we need to enjoy the ride, because we're always trying to get something done. But this is, like I said, the greatest gig in the world. Get to the next step, and we can remember that we have people that are entrusting us, right? Not just with a ton of money, but it is such an emotional decision. Imagine handing over your home to someone, and that's the place where, you know, your memories are going to be created, and you're going through stages of life, and not just the decor and the furnishings and the aesthetics, but also the function and how things work. And did they hire the right people and, you know, are these motorized Lutron window treatments going to work and like all these things these people entrust us. And so I feel like we take them into our heart and as we move through these jobs and phases, the job, I often feel like when really large projects, I wrap pretty much a five year build with somebody and they're great people and it's an out of town job and. Unbelievable. We did a lot by Zoom with contractors because it was Covid at the beginning construction base and I did. I just feel like this sort of, sort of like, you know, I think that's an amazing gift we've been given that we can a make someone's life better and we can. You know, I've had, I've had so many notes from clients over the years saying, you changed my life. You have no idea how happy I am. You know, and it's just like my kids know how to set the table. Oh, my God, yes. Because there are times during this where this ride where like we said, you're up at 2 in the morning, but just, you know, I just think sometimes we gotta enjoy the ride. Like, look at you, Caroline. You are a young gun. You know, you are on the rise and you are, you're doing these things, you're taking the risk, you know, you're just like, you're on it. And I love people like you because not only are you like getting those chops and, and, you know, earning that gravitas, but you are showing other designers that work for you what to do and be a good example. And I mean, it's just the coolest thing. It's just a really cool thing. And I, I think, you know, I just, I don't know, I think we're just badass, badass people. I really do.

[A]

We absolutely are. And if I can give you your flowers, it's because people like you paved the way for people like me. There are so many people, I think, in your generation and the generation before that were doing exceptionally beautiful work, but being in the industry was not exactly an enjoyable experience all the time.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

And so I think people like you are showing that you can complete insanely high level projects that need lots of expertise, lots of intelligence, and also create fun and laugh and enjoy your life and enjoy the experience and be friends with your clients. And like, that is so inspiring.

[B]

You have to enjoy it. You have to enjoy it because it's

[A]

what we're all striving for. I mean, I talk to a lot of designers in Chicago and that's the thing we all talk about is like, we have to make this feel worth it somehow. And if you can, to your point, ride the wave, then it's much easier for it to feel that way. And also, waves come and go.

[B]

They do.

[A]

So if we're riding the wave that's coming, I also need to. I'm speaking for myself now. I need to be remember that they go. And it's part of the cycle. And that's. It's not a. It's not like an indictment.

[B]

Yeah. And your clients that you're saying, like the phase one, where normally you'd be phase one, two, three. Right. All at once. And you're sort of evaluating, like how things are changing, that's another wave you gotta rise. And you just have to never stay in that scarcity mindset. I mean, be smart. Don't over leverage. I always tell people, don't over leverage yourself. But it's gonna be fine. Like, you're. This is just one more phase. And you can look back on this. Every experience I've ever had, I can look back on it and go, you know what? I got through that. I can certainly get through this. And that work, life balance that you were talking about, how. How do I do it? Being a mom and stuff, I mean, it's tough. It's tough. And, you know, and you just kind of have to say to yourself, what's worth it? You know, is this worth it? But again, you know, we raise little independent people too, who see their parents or their moms or dads, you know, doing the thing they love. And I think there's nothing better than raising a little independent gal who says, you know, my mom did it, I can do it.

[A]

I have to tell you, you posted about a trip that you and your daughter took, and it was. What you said about your daughter was so lovely. And I feel like.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I know that moms say that to their daughters in private, but I feel like it's rare to see a mom sort of do that in public and really, like, loudly say how proud you are. And my mom does too. I don't wanna take that any other way, but just to say that.

[B]

I've heard you talk about your mom. Yeah.

[A]

I love her. So. And she does this for me constantly. But I think there's. You said something like, no matter what, my daughter was always the prior. And the fact that you can sit here with an insanely successful career and be able to say that my daughter was always the priority.

[B]

I mean, it's like, oh, you're gonna make me cry.

[A]

It's the thing that everybody wants and everybody is working towards and you should be really proud.

[B]

Perfectly. Thank you.

[A]

She still turned out. She's. I mean, I don't know her, but just from some creeping. She seems, she seems so fun.

[B]

She's had like insane emotional maturity and he's just an empathetic, good kid. She's like me. She always goes for the underdog and like, you know, and she's just a cool kid. And she's going off to college. And she's going off to College of Charleston.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's where my mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because Charleston's the best.

[B]

Are you kidding? Oh, my gosh. So, like when she was little, we would take these mommy daughter trips. We would always do it for her birthday, which is why I've never gotten to go to deck off or anything. Because that's right. At her birthday. Yes. And so we would always go to Charleston or Savannah. We go back and forth, back and forth. And every time I'd be like, oh, look at that campus over there. Isn't that amazing?

[A]

I mean, the campus is so beautiful.

[B]

Her dad wanted her to go to App State and I was like, no, College of Charleston. And then she's, she's gonna spend her first semester in London. So I'm just, I'm proud of her. I'm super proud of her.

[A]

What a fab existence you should be proud of.

[B]

I'm like, can I come in your suitcase? Yeah, yeah. So it's, I mean, it's awesome. And you know, the two, the whole thing just as a community. How's the design community in Chicago? Is it pretty awesome?

[A]

Yeah. I feel like for me doing this podcast, the biggest thing has been how valuable digging into relationships with other designers in the industry is. Like, we do these roundtables in Chicago which are just like 15 people. The information doesn't go anywhere, we don't post about it and we just get to talk really vulnerably and openly about what we're all dealing with. And I do think it's created a downline. First of all, I refer out so much work that would just go nowhere. And it's, you know, keeping, not my referrals aren't keeping everybody afloat. But if we can all do that, if we can all think from like rising tides, lifts, all boats, like that's where we should be thinking, not, how can I do all of this, just myself and hoard it all? And I've. To your point, karma and the, the cycle it always comes back. It always comes back. Comes back.

[B]

I laughed when you said it because I mentioned one time at a cocktail party with some design friends, I was like, you know what? We should have designer Fight Club. And, like, you can't talk that you're in Fight Club. You can't say you're in first roll of Fight Club. You have to come and whatever. Whatever. Whatever happens, it's. It's literally, you have to be Ad Norton when you walk in the door. Like, you can't. You can't say anything about Fight Club. Okay? So we were like, how should we do this? And da, da, da, da. And we started talking about. Well, it didn't really get anywhere just because a lot of us meet anyway socially, but I still want to do it. But what's hilarious is I had other designers start calling me and pinging me, being like, how do I get into Fight Club? And I'm like, there is no Fight Club. And they're like, oh, I know we're not supposed to say it. We're not supposed to say it. And I'm like, no, really, There is no Fight Club. Amy, come on, please. I really want to get in. I don't know. What do I have to do? I'm like, no, I swear to God. But that's what we need to do is like, there is no Fight Club. I swear. Like, people peeping in my windows on, like, a Wednesday night at 7. Like, does she have something going on there? You know, I've seen people with drinks.

[A]

How to make people want to come to a party. Is not have a party.

[B]

Yes. Have everybody just give up. Just throw a vague. A vague suggestion out there and tell people they can't talk about it. You're the most popular girl in the house. Yeah. You'll get invites for days.

[A]

The reverse psychology. I'm kind of just so you can

[B]

get it at a fight club. But, yeah, I think, you know, the Instagram thing too, is like, you know, not gatekeeping. I mean, I don't give away client sources, period. End of story. Like, Joan from Idaho, you're not getting my custom paint color because my client just paid me a lot of money for it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Well, why can't I have it? You know, you're on Instagram talking about it.

[A]

Also, you're not entitled to my, like, the entitlement of the Internet. Sorry, I'm not gonna get em. But, like, God, if I. If you send me a message and I don't. I don't give you the answer you want, I'M not like, I don't know you. I. I don't owe you a damn thing. So the fact that you think I wild.

[B]

I tell the truth. I say, listen, I have an agreement with my clients. I don't share. And, like, that is part of the agreement that I have with my clients. But my favorite. They're like, link. Link. And I'm like, they're. They don't even say anything. Just link. It's like, link to custom cabinetry. There's. There's no link to a crown molding that we had knives made for. You know what I mean? Like, I can. Yeah, I can sort of point you in the right direction. Yeah.

[A]

You know, I can show you my inspiration from a castle, but good luck. That's not really what I do.

[B]

I know. Well, you know something? Well, shout out to my partner. He's a Brit. And so I get to go do the trips, and I get to go see all the things. And, you know, he's very patient with me. He's in racing, and he's a very much, you know, renaissance kind of guy. Because he'll walk around the places with me and be like, now, what's that called again? And I'm like, it's a flying buttress, honey, and it's a gargoyle. And, like, he'll be like, that's fascinating. You know what I mean? So it's kind of cool.

[A]

He's interested in. It is really cute.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just so I'll kiss him later, probably.

[A]

Well, you know, they say, like, the bird theory, where to tell if your partner is, like, really into you. You say, oh, look, a bird. And if they are like, oh, cool, show me the bird. Because as a partner, you should really be showing interest in the small things. And that's your version of the bird theory.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Even if he's just doing it to please you, it's still showing interest in you as a human, which is great.

[B]

And you wanna know something funny? He calls me his bird. Cause that's like the British slang for girlfriend. Yeah. A bird. Oh, my God.

[A]

How? Well, it literally. Oh, my God. It is the bird theory.

[B]

I know. It's all full circle, Caroline.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Like, design is, like, amazing. I feel like, oh, wait, hold on. We have to do the. It's amazing.

[A]

The asmr.

[B]

Hold on, hold on.

[A]

This is Link, the influencer hands.

[B]

Link, you can. Yeah, the influencer hands with the. With the thing. Listen, you can cut that out, because I don't want to get canceled I get canceled every day for something, so.

[A]

Okay. I have a couple questions for you before we go because I know how busy you are, and I want to make sure I'm not taking up too much of your time. I actually have six, and I'm going to. I'm going to triage.

[B]

Because, listen, I give you my afternoon. There's nothing more fun than talking to a fellow designer who's awesome and a Chicago friend. Like, I mean, I know we'd be friends if I lived there, and I'm not going to consider you.

[A]

We're already friends, so hope that's okay with you because we're friends.

[B]

Yeah. Hey, listen, you can get into Fight Club.

[A]

Oh, my God, you guys do hear that.

[B]

I mean, there's no Fight Club.

[A]

There's no. Sorry, a club. That's not. That's not that. Actually, it's something different. Okay, this is maybe a boring question for some people, but I want to talk a bit about logistics. You work all over the country. How do you know you're picking the right warehouse, subs, et cetera, when you can't control everything being so far away?

[B]

So one of the first things I do is I contact designers in other cities that I represent, like, that I respect. So, like. Like, whether or not it's, you know, Boston and, you know, I call Dina from Honey Fit, sir, like, you know, and painter. This is a million years ago. And she was like, oh. Or, you know, all of our friends on Instagram, like, you can. You can find somebody in that part of the country. And I find that most designers are very willing to share. There's a few that are like, oh, I don't. I don't have a drapery worker. It's like, okay, okay, what are you doing? Are you sewing those drapery yourselves?

[A]

Ms. Betsy Ross.

[B]

Yeah, right. But I mean, it does come back. That's. Again, that's part of the risk. Anytime you hire a new vendor, period, end of story. That is risk.

[A]

There's risk.

[B]

Risk. But that's. That's generally how I do it. And, you know, we've had to have. Just. Sometimes you have to just, like, really have faith. But that's how I find vendors in other cities. And honestly, for anyone listening, that needs like, a Charlotte warehouse or, you know, this kind of thing. I'm happy to share.

[A]

That's lovely. That's very generous of you. I do wanna. This is gonna sound like it's like a sponsored plug. It's not. But we had a event a couple weeks ago for I c. I R R, which is an immigration organization in Illinois. And our receiving warehouse in Chicago, that's new. So I think you're gonna find this fascinating. They started. They're only for designers. It's called designer receiving. It's two young guys, and they are not doing the, like, 60 cents per pound, slash 30 cents per pound. That's legally required. They're actually, like, working with us to make sure that we're giving the experience that we wanna be giving to our clients. And I've worked with lots of warehouses. But I also wanna say that they are incredibly civically engaged and are giving back to the community in such a big way.

[B]

That's fantastic.

[A]

And it's something I've realized I don't. You know, there's a very big warehouse and moving company in Chicago that all the designers use, and they actually couldn't care if we lived or died. Like, they kind of hate us.

[B]

Oh, 1,000%. I know these companies. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

And so the fact that we're giving them hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars a year, we are funneling money directly to them.

[B]

And they have to do nothing.

[A]

They do. They do nothing. And, like, they have no client acquisition. Cause we're acquiring them for them. And then they act like if they break something, that's $16,000. Here's a check for 2,000. I mean, I'm losing my mind. So I just want to say, if

[B]

you're working in Chicago, so many things. I have so many thoughts. I have so many thought. This year, actually, I told my team, and my operations manager has been with me for 16 years. And she's funny. She's like, Amy 1.75 would have never done that. But Amy 3.1 is amazing. And I, like, just this year, I came to the conclusion. I don't know what it was. I was just like, no, these people that we send all of this money to, you're not doing me a favor. Like, hello, we take all the risk. Risk. We're literally, like you said, funneling money. Like, just be a little respectful, you

[A]

know, a little bit.

[B]

I'm over. I'm over it. Like, you can't be a maniac, do poor work, and, you know, have an attitude when I call you. Right? Like, pick one, you know, one maximum. And if you're expensive, man, you better be white glove. And when I call, you better treat me with respect and. Exactly. Or, you know, if you're the cheap guy in town, then you've got a little bit more leeway. But I've I've. We've started going through vendors. We're like, gone. I'm gone, gone, gone. We're looking for new people over here. We're looking for new people over there. And it's really been very freeing because I think it too, it eliminates some of Those problems, those 2 o' clock in the morning problems. You know, I love to hear it. I love to hear it.

[A]

And frankly, I think that's how we. We heal this industry a little bit, is prioritizing the non assholes and then we can make the rest work. Yeah, we can make everything else up.

[B]

We're standing up and we're. We're not gonna. We're mad as hell. We're not gonna take it anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna break out in song.

[B]

No, me too.

[A]

Okay. I love that part of your content is sharing your opinions on design and trends. First of all, what made you start doing that? Because I feel like you're kind of an early adopter in your. Like, you've been doing this for a long time. A lot of designers who've been doing this for a long time think they don't need to be on the Internet.

[B]

Internet.

[A]

What made you decide to go for it?

[B]

Well, so I've been on Instagram since 2012, and that was like, when it started, and that was back in the day, you could literally take a picture of like a chair leg and people would be like, amazing.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Yep, amazing. It was like a little snapshot and then it started getting more and more broad. And then I would say, probably about five years ago, I noticed everything looked the same on Instagram. Like, even I was bored. And I am a total junkie when it comes to, like, looking at design and things. I get a little burned out every so often. And I got to start looking at castles and why Abraham Lincoln only had one shoe and stuff like that, but you know what I mean? But I. I just got bored and I was like, ugh. And everyone was reposting things and nobody was doing anything. And I think too, with a response to Covid, like, we weren't doing enough to even photograph right.

[A]

Like, yeah, you have to have your presence somehow.

[B]

Else. Yes. And I started getting. I started getting some DMS every so often and some questions and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to talk about what. What's what I think people would like to hear. And my Instagram, my. You know, it's funny, a lot of that stuff is done in one take. I don't even have my Little microphone. I have one in my drawer. I probably need it. And I just, you know, sometimes I'm just like, do I look okay? You know what I mean? And I just talk about what I want to talk about. And I have a lot of opinions about trends. I mean, I think that's how we got here to begin with. I think we got to Pinterest World because everyone was following a trend. And let me tell you something. Design got real effing boring for a while. So where I was just like, if I see one more of Fill in the Blank, I'm done. I'm moving to Jupiter, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna start selling pool chairs in Jamaica or I can't do it anymore. It was so awful. And so I just started talking about things, and all of a sudden, like, my engagement starts. Started, right? And I enjoy it. The gals that follow along with us on Instagram, they are the greatest. They're loyal. Like, when my brother almost passed away, they were saying, I get flowers from strangers. When my mom died a couple years ago, strangers were sending flowers. We have some people that send dolly bandanas. Like, it's amazing. People are like, thank you so much. It's crazy. I love it. And so I try to answer DMs. I can't always give specifics, but, you know, I try to help. Like, again, it's worth whatever you put out there, you're going to get back twice. And for me, it's kind of fun and so funny. Whenever we set, like, have a picture of, like, this amazing house we've done, or these, like, I'll go through and make slides and be like, here are your this. And, like, you know, the post took 62 hours to make. There'll be 35 likes on it.

[A]

The engagement, thousand percent, you know, and

[B]

then I'm like, in my pajamas talking about the knobs that broke in my. My bathroom. That enraged me. And it's like, all of a sudden, it's got, you know, 12,000 likes. It's unbelievable. So I think for anybody that's looking to increase their engagement, to talk about things, they know to talk about things, don't try to emulate anybody else, because you'll look very odd.

[A]

The key we know when you're doing it. I see it all the time.

[B]

And it's like, I would like to talk to you today about interior design. And I'm like, oh, my God, that person is not like that in real life. What is happening? Like, are they having a stress stroke? Is there. Do they need water. So you be yourself. You know, be authentic. Be yourself, talk about stuff. You know, it's very easy when you start talking about stuff. You, like, engage with the people that took the time to leave you a comment. That's how you grow your engagement. And then, you know, the other thing I'll say is just be real and authentic. I think that's what you're going to see the shift, especially with AI, because have you noticed how now you look at something online and. And you're like, is that AI?

[A]

Yeah, constantly.

[B]

Is that AI? And so I think being authentic is. I think it's really gonna be the

[A]

wave of the crooked teeth and not perfect skin.

[B]

Yeah, Nice girl.

[A]

My bra straps hanging out, as I'm always done in front of the camera. Cause I can bring myself to do that. But it's what people like. They prefer it. And I know that. And I'm still way too vain to do it, which is so annoying. But it's.

[B]

Oh, get out. I love your Instagram preferable. But here's the other thing that's crazy. Crazy. I follow you, but I never see you. And I say that to a lot of my friends. I'm like, oh, my God, where's Kendra? Where's Caroline? Where's this? Where's that? And I have to actually go to your page when I'm thinking about you to look at your screen. It's crazy.

[A]

Why would that. Because, like, it's. I need a word with Instagram.

[B]

It's the algorithm.

[A]

Adam Mosseri. Call me. Okay. Okay. We were just talking about how design has, at one point, point, plateaued and got a little boring, let's say. I'm realizing, though, that lots of people are coming to us for the most boring shit imaginable. And I'm like, have you seen our stuff?

[B]

So portfolio.

[A]

Like, it boggles my mind that people want all white bathrooms, all white kitchens, all white everything.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We're not the ones. There's plenty of designers who will do that, that you can pay them less. Like, actually, they don't, you know, like, you don't need a whole team to do an all white everything with some Schumacher fabric, in my opinion. And so, number one, are you getting that? Does that still happen to you?

[B]

We do. Occasionally. And that's because so and so knows so and so. And they have to use you too. Right. Or they referrals. They saw a room. I did in a book. Or they did it. Or saw me on Instagram talking about how I do all my functional design. Design and Then the aesthetic is off. Right. So sometimes I will say to people, if it's. If it's not a fit and it's not a fit, I will say, you know, I really don't feel like we're a good fit. But if I. Sometimes I'll get them to a point to say, do you trust me? And can I take you down a little path? Like, okay, I know you love the white kitchen, but can we do something really interesting in the stone? Can we combine some, like, actual, you know, wood stain with that? You know, can I just take you a little bit out of your comfort zone so, you know, you can see because you can see all these other projects that you love. Well, guess what? Those people started out at XYZ and we brought them here, so that's kind of the way I handle it.

[A]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. CTI's tagline is Interiors that make you feel. What's something that made you feel recently?

[B]

I. Well, Punch the Monkey. Like, I'm having a love affair with Punch the Monkey. I'm sorry, I know this has nothing to do with design, but, like.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. But, like, same. This is what made me feel.

[B]

Yep. I saw an AI of Punch the Monkey on. On Twitter the other night, and I was like, oh, my God, like, repost or something like that. And then I thought to myself, oh, my God, it's AI. You know what I mean? Now I can't trust anything. But. But it look, it's a feel good moment. I love that. I think really, I am trying to get back into, like, really doing historical details in my interiors. And so I've been doing a. That, you know, so that's what's making me feel Punch in the historical. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I love digging into. I just bought a house that's from 1890, and I love getting to, like, dig into. I know. I close actually on Tuesday.

[B]

I love that. So excited.

[A]

I'll. There will be a whole pre.

[B]

I'm gonna be watching.

[A]

I can't. Well, hopefully if you can see it, I'm gonna be calling it.

[B]

I'm have to go. Let me just put. Hold on. Let me just put that in my reminder. I mean, put that in a sauna. Put that as a task in a sauna.

[A]

Okay. Lastly, we've talked about your socials. We've talked about everything else. Where can people find you?

[B]

They can find me. My Instagram is Amy Vermillion Interiors. Oh, and I just jumped on TikTok recently. Boy, are people mean on TikTok, the wild West. I mean, listen, I did a. I posted an old video about showing how there's fabric, like, nap, like, light and dark side. And as I'm spinning it, someone posted wits in capital letters with, like, pointing at me. And I was like, okay, maybe it's time to get off the old tt. But, yeah, so we're just. We're just kind of building a community over TikTok. Please follow me and be nice. Yeah. And that. That's. That's it, my friend. That's it. That's all she wrote.

[A]

I. I really relate. I. I posted a video about under cabinet lighting and accent walls, and I angled so many people that number one, I was getting death threats. But I was also getting like, maybe you should go on and stop being a designer. It's like, in what world does that have anything to do with what we're talking about? And someone commented. They're not even just dming me this. They are commenting on the post. And someone commented and was like, does this make you feel better about your under cabinet lighting?

[B]

What? You know what's so funny is wait till people start jumping in to defend you, and then they. They start fighting. In the comments.

[A]

In the comments, there's infighting.

[B]

Yes. And at the beginning, when I first jumped on a couple months ago, I would be like. I'd respond, like, super snark, like, just cutting. And now I don't do it anymore. But I am like the Ben Affleck, you know, gif. Where he's, like, smoking outside. He's just, like, so exhausted. That's me. Like, half the time, I'm like, okay. You know where I get it from the most is when I do a construction video. I get all the misogynists, love to jump in, you know, oh, this lady doesn't know what she's talking about. And, like, then I go to, like, their profile, and it's like a picture of, like, macaroni and cheese and, like, a tire, you know? And I'm like, okay, all right.

[A]

I'm a craftsman for 40 years. There's no way this can be done. And you're like, well, I did it, so.

[B]

Okay, that's fantastic. Get out of your mom's basement. I mean, that's so great. I love it. I love it. Oh, are you still on TikTok?

[A]

Yes, I'm still on TikTok. Our TikTok is still. You know, it's our biggest platform. It's definitely. It's definitely the wild.

[B]

Okay, I gotta jump on.

[A]

But it's there. You can just grow so much faster there. Like, so. I mean, one video can get you to, like.

[B]

I know she can take off, probably.

[A]

You know, my Instagram has been around for a lot longer. We put a lot more work into it, and I probably have half the followers that I do on TikTok.

[B]

Yeah. So, okay, Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's just because Instagram's so oversaturated, and TikTok there. There's so many people who are interested in design who want something that's not just, like, still image. So there's, like, people are ravenous for it. And I feel like the other thing I get a lot is that I'm a Nepo baby, and I want to be like, do you want to see my credit card debt? So be prepared for that, because I don't think TikTok knows what a Nepo baby is like. I think they're just saying it as a buzzword.

[B]

That's hilarious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm pretty sure Phyllis and Jeff were not, like, what?

[A]

My parents, you know, supported us and did an incredible job in their careers.

[B]

But, yes, of course, I'm not a Nep.

[A]

That's not really what that is. So I feel like it's honestly just kind of a fun experiment in, like, human behavior to be on there and see what people say. I just had to learn how to.

[B]

People in the comments, put a wall up. I'll come for you. I come for you. I'll be like, don't you dare talk to my friend Caroline now.

[A]

My friend.

[B]

She's my friend.

[A]

Amy, you're iconic.

[B]

Oh, so are you. Thank you so much. That was so amazing. I love you. I love you.