I confess... my client offered me cocaine

Summary

Podcast Summary: Confessions of an Interior Designer Episode: I Confess... My Client Offered Me Cocaine
Release Date: December 4, 2024
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Kimberly Swidelius, Prop and Interior Stylist
Participants: Caroline Turner (CT), Kimberly Swidelius (KS), Darwin (Dar)

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Introduction

In this episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner welcomes her longtime collaborator and favorite industry insider, Kimberly Swidelius. Kimberly, a seasoned prop and interior stylist specializing in still life and set design, shares her journey and dives into some of the most shocking confessions from the luxury interior design world.

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Guest Background and Career Path

[00:38] Kimberly Swidelius:
Kimberly discusses her creative upbringing, influenced by her florist mother, contractor father, and master gardener grandparents. This environment fostered her passion for aesthetics and design from a young age.

[01:11] CT:
Caroline emphasizes that Kimberly's diverse background showcases the myriad ways one can enter the interior design industry without adhering to a single educational path.

[03:32] KS:
After six years in Chicago, Kimberly transitioned from a corporate art director to freelancing. Frustrated with the rigidity of the corporate world—limited vacation time and catering to unaligned interests—she leveraged her extensive portfolio to establish herself as a sought-after interior stylist.

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Creative Process and Efficiency

[05:19] CT:
Caroline praises Kimberly's artistic approach, likening their collaborative work to creating museum-quality art. She highlights the importance of capturing authentic, lived-in spaces rather than overly perfect setups.

[07:15] KS:
Kimberly explains her shift from using standardized floral wholesalers to foraging for unique branches and natural elements to enhance her styling projects. This hands-on approach allows her to infuse genuine creativity into her work.

[10:58] KS:
Addressing a common misconception, Kimberly clarifies that interior styling isn't merely about rearranging items superficially. She values efficiency highly and struggles with assistants who aren't proactive, emphasizing the need for a team that anticipates and stays steps ahead to ensure seamless project completion.

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Confession 1: Client Offered Cocaine

[16:55] KS:
Caroline shares a harrowing confession from a client in Silicon Valley who, after complimenting her work, unexpectedly offered her a substantial amount of cocaine as a "reward."

[17:34] KS:
The client, a tech millionaire with an eccentric vision, would often call at odd hours with outrageous ideas, creating an unstable and unpredictable work environment.

[18:33] CT:
She recounts how the client complimented her by saying, "you're a genius. You're like Picasso, but with couches," only to shockingly offer her cocaine shortly after during a design presentation.

[19:29] KS:
Kimberly describes her reaction—freezing and politely declining the offer, acknowledging the client's misguided generosity.

[21:04] CT:
The discussion turns to the potential motives behind such inappropriate gestures, including possible attempts at mutual assurance or coercion, especially if the client feels insecure about the project's outcomes.

[23:17] Dar:
Darwin elaborates on the complexities of maintaining professionalism while dealing with clients who push boundaries, emphasizing the importance of setting firm boundaries to protect one's reputation.

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Confession 2: Clients Negotiating Excessive Discounts

[24:40] CT:
Caroline introduces a second confession involving a family outside Dallas who persistently requested discounts on every aspect of the project—from major furniture pieces to minor services like reupholstering antique chairs.

[30:34] KS:
Kimberly shares her frustration with clients who continuously haggle, undermining the value of her expertise. She emphasizes that interior design is a luxury service, and constant negotiation devalues the profession.

[35:29] CT:
Caroline reinforces the idea that designers deserve to be paid fairly for their time and expertise. She compares the situation to other service industries where asking for discounts is inappropriate and disrespectful.

[37:38] KS:
Kimberly advises designers to recognize these red flags early and to assertively maintain their pricing structures to preserve both their business integrity and personal well-being.

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Advice and Lessons Learned

Handling Difficult Clients:

• [42:33] KS:
  Kimberly recommends having an attorney draft a certified letter to non-paying clients, which often compels them to settle debts promptly. She highlights the importance of protecting one's business and not allowing clients to exploit designer fees.

Setting Boundaries:

• [34:35] KS:
  Emphasizes the necessity of building the skill to say "no" to unfavorable clients, even when it feels uncomfortable. Trusting one's instincts and maintaining professional boundaries are crucial for long-term success and mental health.

Pricing Strategies:

• [63:19] KS:
  Discusses the variability in pricing within the interior design industry, advocating for transparency and fair compensation based on expertise and experience. She advises designers to consult with mentors and industry peers to establish appropriate rates.

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Listener Questions

1. Showing Personality Online Without Being Canceled

[53:08] KS:
Kimberly encourages authenticity, suggesting that sharing personal interests and genuine experiences on social media can attract like-minded clients and foster deeper connections.

[55:18] KS:
She shares that being herself around clients leads to repeat business and strengthens professional relationships, highlighting the balance between professionalism and personal authenticity.

[67:21] Dar:
Darwin adds that authentic online presence differentiates designers in a crowded market, fostering trust and relatability without compromising professionalism.

Sampling Quotes:

• KS: "Being real, being true to yourself, it really brings around the clients that you want in the end anyway."
• CT: "If you're more authentic, you're going to attract clients that resonate the most with you."

2. Charging Appropriate Rates for Projects

[63:19] KS:
Kimberly explains that while there isn't a universal standard, establishing a fair hourly rate based on experience and industry standards is essential. She recommends tracking billable hours meticulously to ensure profitability.

[65:33] KS:
She advocates for day rates within the styling community, maintaining transparency with clients to build trust and ensure fair compensation.

Sampling Quotes:

• KS: "There's a range, but it's wide and based on your expertise and amount of experience."
• CT: "If you can afford to and clients are okay with it, start hourly, even though it's a bitch to manage."

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Conclusion: The Joy of Personal Life

[71:33] KS:
Kimberly wraps up the episode by sharing the immense joy her new puppy has brought into her life, emphasizing the importance of personal happiness and balance outside of professional endeavors.

[72:33] CT:
Caroline echoes the sentiment, highlighting how pets provide unconditional love and a sense of presence, which complements the creative and often high-stress nature of interior design work.

Sampling Quotes:

• KS: "The pure joy and unconditional love that they provide is like nothing else."
• CT: "Having a warm, cozy home that's yours, and then filling that home with beings that you love and love you, and it's just so pure."

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Key Takeaways

1. Set Clear Boundaries: Recognize and assertively manage relationships with clients who attempt to undermine your value or professionalism.
2. Value Your Expertise: Maintain confidence in your pricing and refuse to engage in constant negotiations that devalue your services.
3. Authenticity Matters: Showcasing genuine aspects of your personality can attract the right clients and foster stronger professional relationships.
4. Protect Your Business: Utilize legal avenues, such as attorney-drafted letters, to handle non-paying clients and safeguard your financial interests.
5. Balance Work and Personal Life: Ensure you invest time in personal joys and relationships to sustain creativity and prevent burnout.

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Notable Quotes

• [17:34] KS: "He walked over to his marble coffee table, slid open a drawer, and pulled out a small, shiny [packet]. I thought it was going to be a watch or maybe some rare trinket. Nope, it was cocaine."
• [30:34] KS: "Interior designers are not here to save you money. If you don't want to pay the price, don't hire an interior designer."
• [53:10] KS: "Showing that you're a real person and that you can relate with just real shit makes you a more full, rounded, real human being that people can engage with."
• [67:21] Dar: "People are a lot more willing to help than you would think they are."

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a candid glimpse into the tumultuous and often unpredictable nature of high-end interior design. Through Kimberly Swidelius's experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into managing professional relationships, maintaining artistic integrity, and the importance of balancing personal well-being with business demands. Whether you're an industry insider or simply fascinated by behind-the-scenes stories, this episode delivers both entertainment and practical wisdom.

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Connect with Us:

• Instagram: Confessions of an Interior Designer
• TikTok: @carolineturnerinteriors
• Facebook Group: Confessions of ID Community
• Submit a Confession: carolineturner.co/pages/confessions

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Note: For more detailed discussions and additional confessions, tune in to the full episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Confession. Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. Today I'm here with Kimberly Swidelius, a prop and interior stylist specializing in still life and set design. We've worked together on many projects, and you are one of my favorite people in the business. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited. Welcome.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Thank you. I've been excited, too. My first podcast ever, which makes me a little bit nervous. I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

We're just chatting. It's like, we'll pretend those cameras and mics aren't there, and it'll be great. Okay. So as I explained, off pod, but I'll explain it one more time. We're going to get into some confessions, some questions, but before we do that, I always start with every guest with, how did you get here?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I haven't even thought of this, but in my career or in the seat.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I mean, either one. I feel like it's to show how there's so many different ways to get into this industry, and it doesn't have to be through one specific degree, but it can be here in Chicago, here in your career, however it makes sense.

[Darwin]

Business owner. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Working.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Well, I guess I always was drawn to creative things as a kid. So my mom was a florist and always decorating, and my parents bought and sold real estate, and my dad was a contractor, and we were always under, like, going under renovations, and my grandparents were master gardeners, so I guess I was always around.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like, you're getting an education growing up.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah. And I think without even really knowing it, but it was probably in seventh or eighth grade, and my aunt, who was a photojournalist, gave me a camera. And then I started shooting. I mean, long story short, I graduated with a commercial photography degree. And so that sort of is how I got into the industry. Shooting, like, on set, still life, tabletop, like small companies back then. And gradually hated the tech part side of all of that. Like, I still shoot and I could probably still shoot, but I just hate the tech part.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And some shoots I was styling on my own, and so it was kind of like a easy slash. Made sense. Progression in my career to get back to, like, working with my hands and doing something a little bit more artful. Some jobs are not. Not very artistic. Or creative, that's for sure. Probably the ones that pay the best are not always. But I'm at least able to create without using technology for the most part.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Paige Wassel was here, and I was talking to her, and I said that it really is. I mean, you guys are creating pieces of art like it is. You're working with what we have already done and the photographer to create a piece that in my mind is the same as, like a piece in a museum. I mean, that probably sounds a little conceited, but, like, all of those hands working together to create something that is capturing a moment in time. It feels very special and like. Like art in its truest form, which I feel like you're. I mean, born to do. Clearly. So when did you come to Chicago?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And I came to this city about six years ago. I was working corporate as an art director and was ready to go freelance. I just couldn't. I didn't want to do the corporate world anymore.

[Caroline Turner]

I can't see you in the corporate world.

[Darwin]

Oh, my God, I can't.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Nine to five. Like, no, actually working a full five. I do work full five days a.

[Caroline Turner]

Week, but, yeah, you definitely do.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

But it feels like only having, like two or three weeks of vacation off and having to cater to people that I don't want to cater to, I just couldn't do it anymore.

[Caroline Turner]

The lack of free will.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I feel like it grinds more money into work less. And so that's.

[Caroline Turner]

Amen. Amen. I love that.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

So moved here and like, interiors, I didn't really. I think, like, people in the city were just starting to use interior stylists, and I just used Instagram to kind of reach out to some interior photographers and just say, hey, do you want to meet up for a coffee or test or whatever? I had an extensive portfolio already, but it didn't include interiors. I just was like, what. What can I do in Chicago now? Like, I'll kind of do anything or try anything to kind of get back into just being.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Honestly, being able to make a living freelance, which is amazing.

[Caroline Turner]

Cause it does seem like you were born, which clearly you were born doing this, but just not in that way. I was talking with Darwin, and what a lot of people don't understand is you guys are actually like, also the onset florist. Like, you're having to make the floral arrangements as the shoot is happening and moving them all around and doing all of that. Like having your mom be a florist and your grandparents master gardeners. I mean, that is an Education that is near impossible to come by. That's incredible.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

But on my end in interiors, they only have to look good for like 30 seconds.

[Caroline Turner]

And from one side, one angle. Exactly.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

So I have people ask me all the time to come do arrangements. I'm like, well, it's just a totally different wall.

[Caroline Turner]

Completely different.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It really is the most respect to floral designers that can design for 3D.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Well. And design for four weeks last. That is a whole other side of the science of it.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Completely different. But also an industry that could bring you very close to interior.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. I mean, when I started five years ago on doing my own shoots, I was still just like going to a florist and getting flowers. And then. I mean, that was very early on, before I had any money. And then I feel like I started having a stylist pretty soon after. Cause it wasn't working. Like, it was just very clear that the. While they were stunning bouquets. It was too still.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Is like too perfect. And you don't want perfect. You want lived in and like a. Again, like a feeling to be evoked from that image, which I feel like you do a really, really good job of.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah. And you gotta pull from the room. I think when people do that, like, you're saying it's beautiful and maybe it looks a little different than going to get your Mariano's bouquet, but it's not like feeling it in the moment. Like, you can grab things like. Like Darwin or I or like any of the interior stylists in the city are all around. It's like you go like pulling things because you know what's going to work in the house. And then. Then you can go or forage.

[Caroline Turner]

I was just going to say we have to talk about foraging, because anyone who knows you knows that that's like a main way that you get stuff for shoots. But give us a little background on when did you start doing that? How did you get brave enough to. To forage from certain areas and. Yeah. Why give me some background?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I mean, I think because to be honest, the wholesalers here sell shit branches. They're so bad.

[Caroline Turner]

It's so true.

[Darwin]

They're terrible.

[Caroline Turner]

I was just there and it's so true.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Swirly sticks. Who the fuck is using a swirly stick thing?

[Caroline Turner]

And like, not me.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Not any designer. Not any designer that I'm working with would like. No, just like, come on. So just seeing a lack of, like, interesting branches when I'm like, you look all around, especially spring, summer, maybe fall. And there's so many, like, beautiful Shapes and interesting. You're not getting like this straight up and down. I just couldn't do it anymore. So just started on the way to a job.

[Caroline Turner]

Pixie.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Nor you have some of these beautiful homes, like on the North Shore with Giant.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Or you're driving by a forest preserve. Or honestly, like the parking lots of the Jewel. Mariano, Target, the bank. Churches are great because they're generally. No one's there during the week.

[Caroline Turner]

So wait, church lots are great. I feel like church. That's a really good. Because what are they gonna do? Put you in jail. Right. I think they'll give you a break.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Right. School's in the summer.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And church on the weekdays.

[Darwin]

So what are you looking for? Like when you're out foraging, like, what is your eye gravitating towards?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Something that kind of stands out from the other color.

[Darwin]

Texture.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Color wise.

[Caroline Turner]

Shape.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Shape. Mostly shape, I would think for that, first and foremost. Sometimes it's like you're desperate and it's just anything you can get.

[Caroline Turner]

And volume and size. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And then seasonal things, of course, when you know you only have like three weeks of lilacs or you just like really hope that you have. I think last year I only had one project, maybe two, where I could use lilacs because they just didn't make sense in some other ones. And I was out of town for like peak season and I was like, oh, shit. Like, I really want to get those off the side of the road. So I needed a reason.

[Caroline Turner]

I need to start thinking of, like, you're thinking of what flowers can I do in that room to make it shine. And I need to start thinking what flowers would Kimberly do in here when I'm making decisions? Because I feel like it's actually really interesting to think about because obviously everyone talks about biophilia and pulling from nature and all of that, but I think it's often talked about in this very, like, corporate world, like honeycomb. So we're going to make our tiles hexagon. It's like, no, no, no. That's not the type of polythelia that I'm looking for. I feel like truly pulling from what nature is giving us and bringing it into these images which are what is getting our work across. I mean, that it feels very special. Very special. I love that you're a genius, which I'll probably say about 10 times while we're talking. Because I also say that when you're not in the room, like constantly, you're, wow, you're so good. And also you Saying that you didn't. You know, it's not like you've been doing this for 25 years. Interior styling for homes. You are so efficient and so good. Like to watch you. I feel like one day you just need to put a camera on for a whole shoot and put it on YouTube. Because I feel like it is crazy the way that your brain is always thinking about the next thing and making sure that this is set, this shot is set. But also then you're able to transition to the next one quick. Because also, people don't understand the time is. I mean, the designers who are listening, obviously, time is money. You have two days. You're having to get a four story house shot. That's a lot of pressure on you to make sure you're keeping the pace so that we get the photos. I think there's a lot of that that's not fully understood. Unless you're like, on a shoot with an interior setup. Yes.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I feel like so many people think you're just like, oh, you're an interior. You're going to go in and la, la, la and play with things and take partly.

[Darwin]

No.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

You know, like zhuzh the pillow and the pedal. I'm like, oh, my God, no. And one of my biggest values in life is efficiency. That sounds like very no, but I completely get it. But I cann cannot handle people that are not efficient. And that was really hard trying to find people that could work for me as an assistant and not. Not to sound like, oh, better than you or that, like, you're less than, or you can't do it. It's just like, no, just figure it out. Like, think. Just think one step ahead, and you need to be one step ahead of me. And then, like, I'm already one step ahead and just four steps ahead from my one step. How can we get on our very last shot? I want to walk away in the very last clip of the shutter and have my car be packed out.

[Darwin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

That's saving everybody time and money.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Well, and also I think something that's very admirable about you is that you really try to make time, like, also to recuperate and to, like, have fun in life. And I feel like you're. You're so busy because you're so in demand. You're not going to say that, but, like, you're probably the most in demand stylist in Chicago. And so you're having to say no to shoots or, you know, turn people down who want to work with you. But I feel like, you want to be so efficient, and so do I. So then you can go and live the rest of your life.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Exactly. I could pack in, cram in all the shoots and then do.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, of course you could.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

But the whole reason I. Well, I can do that. So I can have a lot of vacation time.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly. I guess you'll cram it all in and then you can.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I need to be better about, like, taking mini breaks in between you and me both.

[Caroline Turner]

But I feel like it is really. I prefer efficiency, obviously. I mean, I feel like who doesn't? And it's certainly one of those things that even if you think anyone listening in your life, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that's true. I think even though we love our jobs.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I never said I loved my job.

[Caroline Turner]

Kimberly's like, it's fine. I guess.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I do say that. I say that all the time.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, it's. Yeah, I feel like we want to be able to go and, you know, live our own lives. And I think that is key to be able to keep the creative cycle going. Like, you've talked about that. A lot of resiliency and being able to, like, in order to have the creative, you have to invest in yourself.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And rest a little bit and vice versa. Like, in order for me to live the life that I live, that's generally a pretty well balanced work life with a lot of vacation time and down days. I need to do the hard work, too. Absolutely. And have the creativity, and then the creativity is fed by those times that I've got off. So you need both. And it's really hard to find a balance, though, I would say.

[Caroline Turner]

I think it's almost like seasons and one's feeding the other. But sometimes there's a season of life where you're not getting any downtime and you can feel like my resiliency is so low. And then there's sometimes seasons of life where you're able to invest a little bit more. But I agree with you. Every time I force myself to stop, even if I'm not, like, going on a fabulous vacation. Like, the idea that the team has the week off this week and we're able to just, like, get some mental brain space, I find that we always come back more excited, more interested, more, like, ready to get things done because you've given your body time to rest, that feels so obvious. But I think when you're in, like, an art job or a creative field. Art job. How stupid am I? When you're in a creative field, am I okay. When you're in a creative field, it's, I think, underestimated how much you truly do.

[Darwin]

And when you own your own business, like, I think that's what you all.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Also a big piece of it.

[Darwin]

You don't have corporate or anyone else saying, take time to do this. It's like you're like, well, time is money. If I stop right there, there's all these people that look up to you and things and clients and different employees that are always like, that's. It's even. This damn fucking podcast is 24 7. I think about, like, it is not even the full time thing, you know, so it's hard to fully disconnect and take.

[Caroline Turner]

It's like the creative piece and the brain space it's taking up. And so to be able to, like, let yourself have some space, I feel like it's key, key, key. I could yap with you all day. Before we get into confessions, what's your vice?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I would say uppers are my device.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It could be legal or illegal. You can decide.

[Caroline Turner]

You be the judge.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

You be the judge.

[Caroline Turner]

I've never seen you without a Red Bull in your hand. Let's say that. Red Bull on the lowest of the.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Lowest of the low.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I'm not in the right mindset onset if I don't have a Red Bull or a Celsius in hand. And, like, my assistant knows, like, they'll know. They'll be like, there's 4 Celsius in the. In the bag. Do you need a refill?

[Caroline Turner]

That's me with Caroline with weed. Yeah, no, actually, I'm managing.

[Darwin]

I'm like. I'm like, all right. It's been a few hours.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I'm like, all right.

[Darwin]

Caroline, have you time to light that joint? Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Well, she said to Morgan after we recorded an episode, which was like, fine, but I didn't. Felt like I'd give it my best. And I was like, I didn't smoke because I wanted to, like, be really on. And I felt like maybe I was, like, losing my train of thought because of that. And she was like, maybe you do. You should. And I was like, oh, yep, yep.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

Gotta do that next time. Listen, we all have our vice. Okay? We all have our vice. Thank you for humoring me on that. Kimberly, are you ready to hear confession?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Always.

[Caroline Turner]

Here's a story from a year ago when I was working for a client in Silicon Valley. I've had my firm for about 15 years working in San Francisco, and I've worked with a lot of rich and interesting clients. I had this one client who was a tech millionaire and hired me to completely redesign his penthouse, which was already over the top. Think glass floors, a personal sushi bar, and LED lighting that made the whole place feel like a nightclub. Ew.

[Darwin]

We always talk about, like, the wrong people having money.

[Caroline Turner]

And this example.

[Darwin]

Example. Like, I mean, he. At least he had the insight of their fortitude. Enough to know to hire an interior.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Designer person made money.

[Caroline Turner]

Maybe.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Maybe. Who knows?

[Caroline Turner]

Remains to be seen. He wanted edgy. And honestly, I was excited about the challenge. Okay, I salute you. From day one, though, it was clear this guy lived differently. He'd called me at all hours of the night with genius ideas, like installing a live moss wall in the shower or a floating DJ booth over the pool. I'd humor him, sketch some concepts, and somehow manage to bring his eccentric vision to life. One day, during a design presentation, he was unusually fidgety. I was going over custom furniture ideas when he interrupted me and said, you're a genius. You're like Picasso, but with couches. You deserve a reward. What a weirdo.

[Darwin]

I don't like the reward.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't like that version. What is the reward?

[Darwin]

Or, like, here, she's like a dog. Like, oh, you're so. It feels a little patronizing. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm gonna reward a genius doesn't deserve an award.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. It's like.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

That's strange.

[Caroline Turner]

I laughed, thinking he was joking. But he walked over to his marble coffee table, slid open a drawer, and pulled out a small, shiny. I thought it was going to be a watch or maybe some rare trinket. Nope, it was cocaine. A lot of cocaine. Go ahead, he said with a smile, like he just offered me a latte. Take the edge off. You work so hard. Um, Very generous. Very, very generous offer. Okay. I froze, completely caught off guard. I mean, what do you even say to that? Uh, thanks, but I think I'll stick to coffee, I stammered. He looked genuinely surprised, as if I just turned down a winning lottery ticket. You sure? It's good stuff. I got it in Ibiza. Ibiza. And the reason I say that is. Cause, you know, that little asshole said Ibiza instead of Ibiza.

[Darwin]

I don't know why I'm just imagining him being, like, such a little twerp this time.

[Caroline Turner]

Like a little, like, little gross bald man is how. I'm not that all bald men are gross, but small in stature.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Close to a troll.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

You know, just like the cocaine troll.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

A sheen.

[Caroline Turner]

A little sheen across his entire body. That Was definitely there.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. He's saying he got this in Ibiza. Kimberly, what are you doing at this moment?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Oh, what am I doing? I know what I'm doing. I think you know what I'm doing. What did I say? My advice was, we won't make you.

[Caroline Turner]

Say it, but okay, that's one way to do it. I feel like I would have been like, I only do things that grow from the ground. Because that is true just for my personality. I feel that I prefer things downers, really, is what it is. Like something that's more of a depressant than a. That will heighten.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

You can't need anything to make me more depressed.

[Caroline Turner]

You're like, no, I'm not, actually, but so good.

[Darwin]

It does, like, pose an interesting question, though, Right. When you feel like there's pressure from Ryan and you want them to like you and you want them, you know, they're entrusting you with a lot of money, and it's. That's. That it's always like, if you have a boss who's like, do this or do this and you want.

[Caroline Turner]

It's almost like a show of solidarity. Like, they want you to, like, be doing the same thing, that they're together.

[Darwin]

And it's like a. I. I think.

[Caroline Turner]

My concern would be that I wouldn't then function well, and so I would be, like, worried about what are the alt.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

What's. Are there alternative motives here?

[Caroline Turner]

Is there something else?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Is this going to go further? Sexual or not? It could be anything.

[Caroline Turner]

It's just like bending the rules and letting in something that could potentially go, like, a weird way. Yeah. But also, it's hard to tell your client, you pay my bills. But no, I mean, that's a difficult decision.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Also, when in the. When during. When in the process did this happen? Is this, like, towards the very end? Have you.

[Caroline Turner]

That's a great question.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Been paid a bunch already, most of your.

[Darwin]

Where it's like wrapping up. Well, I think, too, there's like a boundary thing, too. And I think, to your point, Kimberly, it's okay. So say you're earlier in the process, and it. I think she mentioned it, they were going over custom upholstery or drapery or whatever it was. So it sounds like they're in the middle.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Darwin]

But God forbid, something goes wrong. And this guy, he gives me the vibe. Like he's just like a little. Fuck her.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Bit of a loose cannon, calling her.

[Darwin]

At all hours of the night, saying all these things, all these crazy ideas. I could see if God Forbid something would happen with the project. And he's like, oh, well, I saw you in this uncompromising position, and now I don't think you're as a professional as you used to.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it could be. Yeah. Used against you in some way that would not be advantageous. I feel like, from a career perspective, but also to your point, we know so many intimate things about clients, and, like, that was. We could use. And so in some way, it almost feels like he wants mutually assured destruction. If you engage in risky behavior together, you almost can't say it to someone else that it happened because then you're implicating yourself.

[Darwin]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think there might be some of that involved for sure. All right, let's find out what she did. I quickly pivoted back to discussing the drapery fabric, pretending like the whole thing hadn't happened. But the energy in the room was weird. From then on, he kept pushing, saying things like, you can't be this creative without a little help. Right. I finally wrapped up the meeting as fast as I could and got out of there. The project continued, but I started bringing my assistant to every meeting as a buffer. When we finally finished the install, he threw a massive housewarming party, complete with strobe lights, dancers, and, no surprise here, a party favor station in the corner. I didn't stay long.

[Darwin]

Yeah, well, at that point.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's the end.

[Caroline Turner]

I was gonna say at that point.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Like, he can do a good.

[Caroline Turner]

He throws a good party. He can have a party.

[Darwin]

It's his party. I agree.

[Caroline Turner]

He can throw a good party.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Doesn't have to stay. She doesn't want to stay.

[Darwin]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

If it's not the vibe, it's not the vibe.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's not the vibe.

[Caroline Turner]

That's totally fine.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's fine.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know. It's so hard because I would. I think I would rather have this client than, like, a stick in the mud client who's very serious and, like, doesn't know how to have fun and feels, like, very, like, you know, just everything is so, like, prim and proper and perfect. Because I just don't feel like I, like, really vibe with people like that.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

This is also kind of another side. I do think that it probably comes down to a lot of personality. I certainly know bachelor men who are 45 who have a sheet of sweat all over them. They're small. They are just kind of. It's just not. And so that vibe, you're like, no, I do not want anything from you. But then there's Another vibe where I feel like it's more just people are partying how they want and do what you want to do their own thing. So I do think there's probably some nuance there. But, I mean, you got through the project, and it sounds, frankly, if a client invites you to a housewarming party.

[Darwin]

I feel like, pretty good.

[Caroline Turner]

We're wrapping up well with that client.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So I wouldn't. I mean, you never know. I was gonna say it sounds like it ended well. Yeah. So.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And maybe, yes. I was gonna say, sounds like he could have some great content referrals.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. He could send some people. I also do think. I don't obviously, like, we don't live in San Francisco, and I've never worked in Silicon Valley. I have worked in San Francisco, but not really for people in tech. And so I do think that's, like, a very specific type of person, like, very intense, very aggressive. And so I'm sure there's like, also some. And I'm going to assume that this person is a woman. So it's like, I don't think they said if it was, like, a bachelor or. But they didn't say, like, a man and a wife.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Right.

[Darwin]

And so I feel like if it's.

[Caroline Turner]

Just a man and he's like, maybe protect yourself, put up a guard. I feel like if it was a woman, which, sure, maybe is sexism. In fact, it is. But I'd choose the bear. Right. Like, I feel like if it was a woman, that conversation wouldn't even. Like that thought wouldn't even cross my mind that you have to protect yourself. But if you're in that position where you're younger, he's paying your bills, he's an older man, I feel like that can get a little hairy. Okay.

[Darwin]

And, I mean, she's. Yeah. She said that she's had her firm for 15 years. She's probably.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, yeah, I guess that's true. So she's probably. She's not like. It's not like she's, like, 25.

[Darwin]

Yeah. But it feels you're protective of your reputation. And actually we were having this conversation offline of what we were saying to. And I think it goes into one of the listener questions that we have today, so we won't spoil it too much. But it's the fine line between balancing your personality and who you are and showing that just, you know, who you really are, but then still having that professionalism, too. And doesn't mean you have to, like, be doing drugs with your clients. But how do you show. How do you show up and be who you are? And you're in this creative industry, and you want to express yourself. And what. What is that line? That you can do a bit of both.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think that's. And because interior design is art, or it can be, but you're also having to have, like, the business mindset. I feel like that's very. It's. I was actually thinking about this the other night, that it's one of the easier ways to be an artist and make money. I think, like, it's one of. It's a pipeline to still be in the arts, but to be able to, like, actually make a living. I feel like if you're gonna be a painter, you have to be, like, one of the top 25 painters in the United States in order to, like, really make a living, have employees do all of that. But we're still getting to do art in a way that is pretty easily monetized. And I feel like because of that, there is a lot of, like, boundary pushing and different types of people you work with while you're still straddling being an entrepreneur or a boss, which I feel like can be difficult. Let's get into the second confession. I own my own interior design firm outside of Dallas and got hired by a client I'm really excited about. It was a family who had older children and bought their forever home and wanted to make it nice for generations to come. But the red flag started waving almost immediately during our very first consultation. They asked if I could, quote, throw in a little designer discount on my fees. I explained that I could sometimes negotiate discounts with vendors, but my time and expertise came at a fixed rate. They nodded and said, of course, of course. But I could see the wheels turning. By the time we started sourcing, it was clear their favorite word was discount. They'd asked me to haggle over literally everything. A $12,000 sofa. Can we get it for 10K? A custom rug. Do they offer a buy one, get one deal? Which is so funny. They even tried to negotiate down the cost of reupholstering their grandmother's free antique chairs. I spent hours, hours on the phone with vendors trying to get them the best deals just to keep the peace, which I feel that this is an important moment to step in. That's where you went wrong. If you open the door even a little bit to people like that, it never ends. And I don't mean this from a judgment perspective. I mean this because it's happened to me, and I've Learned. There are some people where they will always ask because in their mind, it's like, what can it hurt? People are pricing things to make a living wage. I'm not typically a bargainer unless you're in a country that you're supposed to be doing that. I really think that if you're saying, okay, yes, I'll talk to this vendor, Let me see what I can do. Let me see what I can do. While you're seeming like the hero in that moment, and they're gonna be happy in that moment, you're setting yourself up for the worst project ever. Because once they real that you will do that, it doesn't stop. And again, it's not like malicious intent. They're not trying to. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're not trying to take advantage of people. That's just how the rich stay rich, quote, unquote, is by saving as much money as you can. But I feel like, yeah, basically engaging in that delusion because at the end of the day, interior design is a luxury service. And I think people forget that. Yeah, like, if you don't want to pay the price is don't hire an interior designer. But interior designers are not here to save you money. I will say I think a trained interior designer can save you money in mistakes that you would make if you didn't hire someone. But interior designers are not cheap. You're not getting a deal by hiring an interior designer. And so the idea that you would hire someone to then negotiate everything. And also, I'm assuming this person is hourly. I don't know if they are or not, but for us, it would be moot because the amount of time we're spending trying to negotiate would have to be billed for that.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I was going to say, like, well, time is money. Like, you're gonna have to. It's gonna slow your project down. Absolutely. Have to shop around if the vendor isn't willing to budge.

[Caroline Turner]

And, like, and then they're paying your fees, and it's like you're getting the same amount of money just so they can say they got a deal.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

And that's not. I think there's such thing as finding, like an ebay find or whatever. That was like, a great deal, but not that you're hagg with a person in a store. Like, it's crazy. That's two different. There's like, fines that you get for a deal, and then there's asking for deals from people who do not provide them or cannot provide them.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah. And say on a fine, then you can make like, instead of looking on first dibs, maybe you go to ebay for the sofa and you're saving the client 5K. But then you are also making it. It's like you can make money. You're not going to make as much money, but it's like. And you're billing your time. It's like billing your time to actually come out with a product than just billing your time to try to save money. It just.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes, yes. I feel like I'm always going to have. And most designers, I have to assume, are always going to have their clients best interests at heart when it comes to money. For sure. I think there's this, like, misconception with interior design that we're trying to take advantage of people and it's just not the. I mean, I don't know any designer that is rolling in it and like, because they're taking advantage of their clients.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Apart from like celebrity designers.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, apart from people who, you know their name, the brand. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

What other designers like rolling in it and scamming their clients, essentially.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, like, it's not a thing. It's not really a thing. And I mean, we have down to the minute, you can see how we use all of our time. And I feel like most designers are that way. It's very transparent and if it's not, find that out in the hiring process and don't hire that one specific designer.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

But I feel like, generally speaking, this industry, if anything, we're more careful about making sure our time is allocated for. And that's a good reason for. Absolutely.

[Darwin]

You're like, why we cut hours all.

[Caroline Turner]

The time without clients asking. Just because it's like, that's what you do. That's how you do this job. Yeah. It's very interesting. And I feel like, especially when someone is so, so, so wealthy and are doing this and you're like, I can barely pay my rent and you're trying to negotiate with me. That's when it becomes untenable. And I find that the designer then doesn't want, doesn't care about the best product for the client because they're annoyed. You get to a point where you're like, well, this person's taking advantage of me, so why do I care?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And the cheapest clients are the hardest ones.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. It's always the ones who say, always, we're so easy, that are the hardest, most difficult, argumentative clients. I feel like I need the we're so easy tax because People who are actually really normal don't say that. That they don't. It's crazy.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

They don't. And sometimes the ones that seem the most scary and, like, to the point and, like. Or the ones, you know, with the very stern emails, and I'm like, oh, shit. Like, how's this call going to go? And then it's like, lovely and real. They're just like, no, they're fucking efficient. Which is our. One of our favorite things. Efficient and direct. Direct. And you're like, okay, give me this.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

They're not bitching about your day rate or X, Y. It's just like, no, this is just how it goes.

[Caroline Turner]

And I feel like, again, what the clients don't understand is that you get a better result if you're. The other way. Like, if you're, you know, you ultimately get the thing that you're paying for if you let the designer know that the designer has your best interest and then let them do that.

[Darwin]

Yeah. So what do you tell. I mean, at the beginning of this, right as she was starting to notice these red flags. It's really hard. Especially. I mean, I don't know. I can't remember if this. Oh, she says she has her own firm outside of Dallas, but we don't.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Know for how long. Yeah, I would say the first. I mean, I'm only on year six at this point of interior styling. Yeah, the first four years.

[Caroline Turner]

I was gonna say the first. I'm on year five years. I feel like it was very.

[Darwin]

Even in my career, too. I still have a hard time saying no. Right. And it's almost like a skill you have to build up and do the reps of doing it. You know, like my therapist talks about, too. Like, you have to build the reps.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

You have to build the rep. You have to keep saying no to have it become like a natural thing. And then trusting your gut, sitting in.

[Darwin]

The discomfort of setting the boundary versus sitting in the discomfort of feeling like you're being taken advantage of.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Darwin]

To meet other people's expectations. And I think it takes some time and some practice to be able to do that well.

[Caroline Turner]

And also it takes self confidence, because when you're early in your career and this is one of the biggest jobs you've ever seen and you need the work, you're not gonna say, well, no, I'm gonna help you get discounts. No, I'm not gonna help you do this. I think the bottom line is you can say no. You just have to figure out a way to word it. To make it seem like this is the norm and this is how it all happens. Because it is. Right. And I feel like if you can say, you know, often the discussion is like, will you get a discount? So will you pass it on?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like it's not even about asking for discounts. It's that they know we get discounts because it's trade programs. They want us to give them our discounts, but. But it's not a discount. It's. We've earned that. Like, that is. You have to have a tax id. You have to like opening orders. Like, there's all these costs that are associated with that that I feel like they don't see. They just see the 20% off. But it's not a discount. It is. That is our price.

[Darwin]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

And then that is how this industry works.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's like, you're not going to Home Depot and saying, I want to buy this faucet for. I know Home Depot. I know you bought it for 300 and you're selling it for 500. I want it for four, I want it for 350.

[Caroline Turner]

And they're going to be like, no, no.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's like you. It's the exact same thing. Like, you're not going to another business asking to buy it for whatever.

[Caroline Turner]

It certainly shouldn't be.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I mean, maybe.

[Caroline Turner]

I'm sure some people are, but honestly, I feel like I've definitely.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's insane to me and it.

[Caroline Turner]

To me, you know, I talk a lot about, like, respect and value and if I respect what someone else is doing, which typically, if I'm going to purchase something, especially like in this industry, when you get to a certain level, things are pieces of art, and so you're respecting that person and that they set the price that they need again, to have a living wage to be able to be an artist. And I don't want to exploit people in the name of good art. That's the opposite of what art is all about. And I think the collaboration and not, you know, we were just talking to someone, actually. Paige was saying that she's still getting asked to do work for free.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's like, I don't. At what point does that become a sign of disrespect to ask someone to do that? Because in my opinion, it is like, if I'm valuing what you're doing, you should know that that comes with an exchange of goods or money. That's kind of how this. Unfortunately, that's how capitalism works. And we are within that system So I feel like, like it's. Yeah, it just, it feels like you're asking for something because you don't value it as much as you should. Or entitlement, which I think is what.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It like really comes across as it.

[Darwin]

Goes back to a power thing too, of being seen as the help and. Right. It's like for certain clients. And again, this is a small subset of clients that do this. But this is a luxury service. This is something that people don't need and don't have to do. They are choosing to do it. And you have to realize if you're gonna invest in something, that's an investment, that's what it is. You have to pay for people's time and you have to pay for people's work and pay them for what they're worth. So I think it's a little bit of expectation setting up front for different clients and making sure like, hey, just so you know, this is what the process looks like. And then just staying true and saying no. And if you start to get those red flags from the get go, maybe that's just not a client that is in line with what the work you want to do.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's really easy to sit here and say, just don't take on that client. Because like unless you're in a position where you need work. But in the past when we've needed clients, we've needed money and I've taken clients to fill the hole that I otherwise probably wouldn't take. Always, always, always the ones that blow up, backfire, end up with a bad result we don't finish, something happens, the client isn't whatever. It's always those where you're just trying to make ends meet, which is the reality sometimes of being an entrepreneur. But I don't think I've ever not said, man, we shouldn't have taken that client. And you know it even then. But you don't feel like you have the full option to say no. But someone told me once, for every one job you say yes to, you say no to three others. And while you might not know what those three others are just by virtue of how you are, when you have enough work or too little work or whatever it is the lack of hustle because you've signed on this other client that ends up being a disaster which could have gotten you two other better clients, that's the equation I feel like we have to ask ourselves every time, and if it's not worth losing out on two or three potentially better clients, then is it worth it potentially think about not taking it.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

One, like, amazing client that gets you other clients, and you've said no to three terrible ones.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Darwin]

So.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And then you're also building your reputation in a different, like.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. In a way that's more valuable. Absolutely. I completely agree. It wasn't just furniture. They pushed back on everything from my hourly rates. Can we do a package deal? To delivery fees. Do you think the movers could waive this if we tell them it's for a charity event? I started to dread.

[Darwin]

And they're lying.

[Caroline Turner]

Like a charity event? What are you talking about? This is a home. Huh.

[Darwin]

That's so Dallas.

[Caroline Turner]

It really like, Dallas.

[Darwin]

It's like a charity gala at our home. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I started to dread every email because I knew it would include another attempt to nickel and dime me. But the real kicker came at the end. The real kicker?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

After months of hard work, the space was stunning. A true transformation. On installation day, I walked the client through the finished penthouse, expecting them to be thrilled. Instead, they pulled out a notebook. Yes, a notebook. And started going line by line through the budget, questioning charges from six months ago.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I'm like, feel anger inside right now.

[Caroline Turner]

Letting. Angry for this person.

[Darwin]

Well, and especially at the end of this, when you know this person, like, she just put months of hard work, probably going above and beyond doing, trying to get all these deals for these people. Such an exciting accomplishment. Yes. And then just feeling like it's not being reciprocated by those clients. And then that's just immediately.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And that's the end. I'll be like, here's this notebook of.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you for making our home beautiful and perfect, but also wish it was cheaper.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Who does that?

[Darwin]

It's miserable people.

[Caroline Turner]

I thought you said this vendor gave us 20% off. Why isn't that reflected here? God, this is literally giving me, like, cold sweats because I have had these conversations. This piece looks smaller in person. Can we get a partial refund? Smaller in excess. The delivery fee seems excessive. Shouldn't you cover that? It took every ounce of professionalism not to lose my mind. I calmly explained the breakdown for the third time. But they kept pushing, eventually saying, I'm not comfortable paying this final invoice until we go through everything in more detail. Oh, my God. I was just going to say. And that's when you pick up your phone and call your attorney. Spoiler. They never paid the final invoice. After weeks of chasing them and hearing excuse after excuse. I'm traveling the checks in the mail. My accountant's on vacation, I finally gave up. To this day, I still have nightmares about that project. I learned two things. One, never agree to work with someone who starts negotiating your fees before you even sign the contract. And two, no discount is worth the headache of dealing with a client who doesn't respect your work.

[Darwin]

Yep, exactly.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Pretty much things we discuss.

[Caroline Turner]

I was going to say the two biggest takeaways for sure. But also a piece of logistical advice. Have an attorney who will write you like a certified letter. And basically because we've had clients not pay, and one we'll probably talk about because, er, she still makes me so angry. But we've had clients not pay for months and months and six months, whatever. And you know, I've asked attorneys if it's under like 25 grand. Frankly, it's not really worth going after because you're probably gonna spend more in attorney's fees. All of that. They're all gonna say that that's fine. Pay your attorney for one hour of their time, 300, 500 bucks, whatever it is, send a certified letter and say, like, basically your attorney will know what to do, but you owe us X amount. If you do not pay by X amount, we will be forced to do xyz. And we've never not had someone send the check.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Oh, really?

[Caroline Turner]

Because people are scared by attorneys and by certified letters. Because certified mail, like, we know if you get it right, you can't say we didn't get it. And so. And I've had clients multiple times. Not that this happens all the time, but the couple of times it has.

[Darwin]

You can't play duh.

[Caroline Turner]

Said, oh, we didn't know. And it's a weird six months of paper trail that we've been telling you that I don't care.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

The letter from the attorney, just pay me.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. And they're like, your check's in the mail. I'm like, huh, Great. As it should be. So if you do find yourself in that situation, don't give up so quickly because frankly, sometimes that's what people are hoping you'll do.

[Darwin]

Exactly.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Maybe they can still do it.

[Caroline Turner]

I was going to say, you never know. I don't know how long ago this was, but like, talk to an attorney, get a consultation, they'll write you a quick letter. Worst case, you lost $500 on the attorney fees, but you made your last ditch effort. And make sure, you know, sorry, this is all like very specific. But you can claim that on your taxes, so business losses, in that way you can, which I didn't know for years. And years and years would have been super helpful in the beginning when we were making a ton of mistakes. But you can. Yeah, basically it's a write off along with a lot of other things. So those are two pieces that I would say as a slight way to recoup. Because there's nothing more heartbreaking than this. When you've given clients your all and you've done above and beyond for these people, that's the thing.

[Darwin]

You could tell then the whole time she's talking about it, she's saying everything that they did, trying to go after it. And I think this person came from a really good intention.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Darwin]

That's what's so frustrating. They came from a really good intention place, trying to do right by their clients, trying to do the right thing. And then this is the result.

[Caroline Turner]

They ended up getting taken advantage of.

[Darwin]

These clients I don't think would have ever been happy.

[Caroline Turner]

No.

[Darwin]

Regardless, there are certain kinds of people and they are just like this. Like, I had this boss, this one company, and she was very, very, very wealthy. And I knew she talked about her husband, how he was this big svp. And I, you know, I looked up their pillow.

[Caroline Turner]

Who among us always right, just as you would.

[Darwin]

And I saw this, you know, she bought it for like $3.4 million, and then they completely renovated it. So this just gives you an idea, right? North Shore. And I would hear her all the time complaining about everything. And I used to get sweet green, like twice, three times a week. And she would say, oh my God, sweetgreen is way too expensive. Way too expensive. You can't eat sweetgreen. You can't eat sweet green, like. And it was just her personality. And I remember hearing about contractors and landscapers and she was always having some issue. Always.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and what's funny is those are the types of people that, like, if I had that level of money, I would have. Nothing would ever be wrong because what does it fucking matter? I know you didn't get your 10% off. Isn't that the point of being rich? So you don't have to worry about the 10% off.

[Darwin]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

It's just a part of it. If you don't have any money and you're worrying about the 10% off, yeah, that makes sense to me. But you have plenty. And you're. To me, the perk of being wealthy is to not have to be so concerned about those things. There's so many financial advisors right now that are cringing, but genuinely, that's how I feel. I would rather not own Three vacation homes. But be able to. Not have to feel like the world is always out to get me. Not have to feel like I'm always being taken for a ride. Something's happening. It's to your point. Those types of people will always be miserable, always. No matter how much money, no matter if the house is perfect, because they have nothing else. But they want something to complain about because there's no personality, there's no hobby, there's no interests other than how their perceived wrongs, like things that are happening to them or against them, that otherwise the average person would just see as like, that's life and moving on.

[Darwin]

You know, this person did a service for me. I'm gonna pay them, like, just like you do, period. Anything else? Like when you go get your nails done. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

When you're at the nail salon, your nails are almost done. I have this little one hang nail. Can you clip it? She does. And you're like, okay, well. Cause I told you, you had to do that. You owe me money.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? That's not how this works. And so it feels like the same thing. Because there's any perceived issue there should be savings involved. And that's not how the world works at all.

[Darwin]

It sounds miserable and exhausting, to your point.

[Caroline Turner]

It's also. I find. I would love your opinion on this, Kimberly, But I found in my experience that people who are generationally wealthy are actually the ones who are way more normal and, like, reasonable about your fees, and they don't negotiate. And because in my experience, they've been taught how to have money by the previous generations, whereas new money, nouveau riche. It's very. Like, they'll spend money on a diamond tennis necklace, but then, like, they want 20% off of, like, a bolt of fabric. And you're like, what? It just doesn't really make a lot of sense. It's like the very flashy. The things that are, like, seen as status is what they'll spend money on. But the things that, in my opinion, make sense to spend money on are the things that they're nickel and diming or causing problems or always asking for things. It's like an entitlement.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah. I think the generational wealthy, it's all about the lifestyle they've seen their entire life. They don't know any different. It's just like, oh, yeah, you pay for things.

[Caroline Turner]

Someone does something and you pay them.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah. Be like, I have staff, I have this, I have that. And they don't Think twice about it. It's like that's just part of.

[Caroline Turner]

Someone does a service for you and you pay them. You pay them. Okay, so now we need to give penance to these two individuals. The first one, which, to remind you, is about the coke head in Silicon Valley. Should we give penance to her or to him?

[Darwin]

Let's give penance to her. Because thinking back, she was obviously uncomfortable with the situation.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I think she should go have a martini with a client that she wouldn't normally have. Or like a drink or like something mild. I mean, she doesn't have to go get blitzed with someone or do anything to that. But just one. I don't know, just to like, maybe at the end of a job, not.

[Darwin]

The beginning, feel like you can let.

[Caroline Turner]

Loose a little bit, a little bit and show nothing's going to happen.

[Darwin]

Yeah. Because again, she's had her firm for 15 years and so it sounds. I think we're all making assumptions here, but it sounds like maybe she's very rightfully so, as she should be, but protective of what her reputation is and what she does and what she doesn't do, which doesn't mean you have to do coke if you're not comfortable with it. There's a lot of things you can do. But yeah, maybe you can show that you can have a little bit of both. You can enjoy. And maybe she does, but I think that's a great one.

[Caroline Turner]

The other thing that I know that we do is throw a company Christmas party and invite all your clients. Like, that's a fun way to sort of weave everybody in. But you're not. It's not like one on one. There's no like. And they're not having to drink if they don't want to or do whatever, and then you're not having to. But like you're in that space together. I don't know. That would be my recommendation because I do feel like when we're in a space with our clients, like in a more like social setting, it. Then we, A, we learn things about them in that social setting. And B, it just creates like a little bit more familiarity and you have something that you've bonded over, which is nice. So maybe doing something like that could be good. And then the other one is the people who kept asking for a discount, which is. So I was gonna say, I was gonna say their penance is that they are not allowed to ever hire an interior designer again and torture her.

[Darwin]

They should never be able to hire any service, any. They cannot do anything. They have to do it themselves. I hope they know how to do their own landscaping. I hope they know how to do their own n. I hope that they know cleaning.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, can you imagine housekeeping, all of it? No, there's literally no way. That's so funny.

[Darwin]

You lost your privilege. If you can't act right, then you don't get any privileges.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

If you pay for this service, you don't get it.

[Darwin]

You don't get services and you don't get any services.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

At the very least, I feel like they should have to have an ugly house for the rest of their life.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

How about take out every single thing that she does.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God. Actually, I have asked an attorney that question. If they didn't pay, can we go in and take all the stuff out?

[Darwin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

No, you can't. Legally you can't. It's like, it's murky. It's called delivered goods. And then you would have to like sue for it. It's a whole thing. Because I've definitely had that thought where like they owe us 20 grand and there's 20 grand of products sitting in their space that's technically ours. Cause they haven't paid us. But damn. Unfortunately you would have to basically do a hike.

[Darwin]

Can't like the government do that. Because it's like, oh, if I don't pay my taxes or I don't pay my bills or paid tax.

[Caroline Turner]

I know, exactly. They repo. Whatever. And apparently.

[Darwin]

Damn. The other thing I was thinking for this. Well, this wouldn't be necessarily penance. I'm like, we need a gofundme for this designer and so she can get her frickin money.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh my God. I know, I know. Yeah. Their penance is that they can never have anything again. Or at the very least, they are like blackballed from ever working with another interior designer. I also think there should be like a place where people can.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Oh, like a, like a, like a. Yeah, like a.

[Caroline Turner]

Like the bad men list, but the bad client list, you know, that's like. I almost feel like we need a bad client list to go around because.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Some subscription that you did.

[Caroline Turner]

I was just gonna say Facebook group because I mean, it's true. They have those Facebook groups like don't date this man. Are we dating the same man? Kind of the same thing. And I feel like people should be warned.

[Darwin]

We should turn. We should make that a little bit thing on our Facebook.

[Caroline Turner]

I was gonna say maybe there's something coming soon. We can't get sued. But like it could be.

[Darwin]

Well, you're allowed to say, this is my experience with this client, just so you know.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, for sure.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. Well, keep a lookout on our Facebook group. We'll see if we can come up with a legal way to do that. Yeah. You want to go to some questions, Kimberly? How does that sound? So we have two today. This one says, this is a question for you guys specifically, which I think means us specifically. What do you think about showing your personality online in this industry? I'm worried about being canceled or turning off clients. Clients.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I don't mind showing my personality. I don't know if it's. I think that there could be a fine line between being professional and the sharing too much. But I think you can, I don't know, you can sort of gauge people, gauge people that you've chatted with before or clients you've talked to before, that maybe you were guarded, more guarded with. But you know, say on social media, you know, maybe you don't want to share all your woes or anything, but showing that you're a real person and that you can relate with just real shit. Like, you know, you put a Persona and like, life's not perfect. And being a stylist or a designer, it's like, my house doesn't look perfect. I don't like. I mean, there's a million things that like, that people would not want to be showing or sharing or putting out there. But just being, I don't know, being real, being true to yourself, it really brings around the clients that you want in the end anyway.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I am for the most part myself around almost all of my clients. And most of my clients are repeats.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

So which I mean, and those are the best. And like, I find so many of my clients like you, Caroline, they're actually friends.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like when it's designer to designer, designer to stylist or something, like to me, I keep saying art. It sounds very pretentious, but it does feel like just two artists who are like collaborating. I think what can be scary with clients is, I mean, I guess I am your. Your client because I'm paying you. So I guess it is in that way the same thing. I think that to your point, not harping on things that are going wrong, but showing how you respond to things or. Morgan and I talk a lot about building in public. Like if you're having, you know, things happen in your business, talking about that, talking about your day to day life, general things about that make you who you are as a person, I think that just endears people to you a little bit more because people are like, oh, we have that in common or whatever it is. I can't tell you how many people have texted me after the podcast launch and were like, you would make a horrible physical therapist. And I feel like it's the same thing being open about all of that information, like what I would have done and where I am now and all of that has been nothing. But I found like really positive and I find that showing that little piece, a client then can relate to you or you know, talking about a hobby that you have or I'm thinking of one designer who rides horses and she talks about like being an equestrian on her social media and since has had a lot of clients who have horses or who have a horse farmer or equestrians or something to that effect. So talking about your personality and what you value or like if you're into pottery and talking about like that you do that in your spare time. It makes you a more full, rounded, real human being that people can engage with. And not that we want to create parasocial relationships, but that people can relate to. Relate to.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah, well, it's like this real, this genuine, this true relation, this like you're not just meeting someone online and clicking their ad and then hiring them via email. It's like reading the actual newspaper or magazine versus just getting snippets online. It's like people are kind of craving that real life shit now, you know?

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Genuine genuineness. And that's, and that's how I built my business was completely being just normal, genuine. Like what? Like not overthinking things on what. How am I going to capture this stress, stressing out about, like responding to someone but genuinely having conversations about things that weren't necessarily work related. But you know, it goes a long way and it's not just doing it for the sake of doing it or sharing for the sake of sharing. It's like, oh, I think, you know, my, I mean, I'm just going to use my cute puppy.

[Caroline Turner]

I was just going to say, I think that's the perfect example.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

People are like, oh my God, your puppy and like bring him to a shoot or do this. And you know, so many of my clients are dog lovers, but they're just there's other things too. Like you were saying pottery or whatever, just showing creates a gentle connection. Some sort of something that's not just so work related and sterile. Even in an artistic job, it can still seem like sterile the same. Like, you know, here's the formula for a Table setting. It's like, yeah, it's like, beautiful. And I like to watch those. But sometimes. Sometimes you want, like, a little bit of the other side. You want the mess.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. And I think it's interesting because talking about being online, I know when I first started posting videos, I wanted everything to be perfect. And, like, I didn't want the idea that someone was seeing something that was, like, undone or half finished or not complete or what have you. And obviously, in my time of being on social media, I've realized that that is actually where you get people involved. Nancy Meyers Rudder, and she is building this home, this oak house, and she does a lot of audience engagement on just like, talking about each individual little step in the process. And I mean, I rarely see that engaged of a page. You have people who are like, building their house right alongside her building her house. And it's just such a perfect example of how to let people in without having to say, like, my parents got divorced when I was 8. Here's all my trauma. Like, you're letting people into your life without having to be so. Exactly. It gets intimate without having to be intimate. And I think that is the sort of balance that you have to strike.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

You're almost making someone more comfortable than. More uncomfortable. Like, if you're sharing about your tragic upbringing, you're going to make them. Yeah, maybe they'll feel closer to you, but in an uncomfortable in a way that this doesn't. I know, too much. But sharing the messy details of, like, here's how we're like, yeah, plumbing or whatever. And you're like, okay, yes, more. Com. Now I feel more comfortable that you're normal, too. And you go through the same shadows.

[Caroline Turner]

Thought process and all of that. Yes.

[Darwin]

Well, it's like what you were saying, Kimberly, which I feel like was so smart. It's like you're going to attract the clients that resonate the most with you when you're more authentic. Right. You're gonna attract clients that are like, oh, my God, I agree with that. Or your personality. And we click. And when you go into, you know, designing a home or working on a project or whatever, it could. If you look at it, it is like a relationship. And it can be for, you know, a year, two, three, even longer. And you have to make sure that you know you and your clients, and everyone clicks and everyone works together. And when you're being able to be a little bit more authentic, you can then attract people that already know you. They already are kind of bought into how you are on Social media, they get that, right? And so they're like, oh, I like her personality. I like how she is about things. And I don't know, we also were talking about this offline too. Is from a marketing perspective. It's like everyone is so afraid to do something wrong or to be canceled, and it just feels all very the same. Right. And no one's afraid to have a stance, say anything controversial say. Or even just say anything. Right. Even coming out and saying, I think it's bullshit that clients don't pay me. Some people are afraid to say that. And it's true.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Darwin]

That's part of the reason A, we have this podcast, Shameless Plug. But two, I mean, you have to say something or it just feels the same. And so I think that's another way to just differentiate yourself. Because even if there's a million interior designers, you're the only one of you. And that's how you can kind of build your own niche within a larger social media.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think there's a lot of beautiful things on social media. And so that's not to say things are like, there's never too many. Obviously, everyone can always make a niche for themself. But in order to make that niche, is sharing you sharing why you have this thought, why do you do trim this way? Why is this this way? Why is that is the piece that I feel like is what people are grabbing onto and hanging onto. And I mean, from the canceled discussion, I think the bottom line is that if you're an interior designer, we're not really in the business of, like, talking about things that would get us canceled. So I think that is something that just has to, like, you have to put aside because it's just not. Unless you're going to be. Yeah. None of us are ever talking poorly about someone else. Like, that's not the objective. And so I think everyone's so worried about being canceled. Take that off your plate. I would say if you say something dumb on social media, might be a little embarrassing, but you're not going to, like, lose your career, most likely. I wouldn't say, I think you're going to be okay. Second question. I have no idea if I'm charging too much or too little for projects. And I feel like no one is transparent about. Is there a standard? No, there's not a standard, which is kind of the problem, I think.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I think even more so in the interior design. Like, maybe there's a standard hourly rate.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, kind of. I think it's within A range.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Well, I guess I take it back. There is a standard. Well, at least for a stylist, there's a standard. But I would say it's like from. The range can be kind of high, but it's like.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Or wide range. It's not.

[Caroline Turner]

That makes, I mean, every project is a little different with what it's asking for and all of that. I mean, I do think when I started the business, we did flat fee pricing because I, A, didn't have the bandwidth to manage hours and B, I didn't feel like I even knew what the projects took exactly yet. And so flat fee also C was a way to get people to hire us because it was like they knew exactly what they were going to be spending. We could say the flat fee is $20,000. You pay us 10,000 upfront, 10,000 at the end. And that's a horrible deal, by the way. Never do that. Very, very bad. And then I think once we learned what those took, we realized how much money we were pouring down the drain because the flat fee didn't cover it. And then we were able to adjust. I think if you can afford to and clients are okay with it. Start hourly, even though it's a bitch to manage. And, you know, make sure you're tracking. I think that you're at least accounting for all of your time, or if not all the majority of your time. Our accountant says we need to be at least 50% billable. And so that's what we strive for. Which also then gives me a little bit of room to do other things that might not be like exactly billable. I think it's often based on your expertise and amount of experience on how your hourly is. And then how we handle things is that we're obviously then, you know, typing all of our hours and we're sending monthly bills to our clients and then we're doing check in per month on like where they are with their bills and all of that. So I would say, in my opinion, there's not a standard really like per project, there maybe is a standard per hour.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And then styling wise, are you typically, do you feel like the standard is like per half day, per day, or is it. Are some people charging hourly?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

No, it's day rate, day rates. I mean, I think that's across the board for styling, for all types of styling. It's day. Right. And I'm very transparent about my day.

[Darwin]

Right.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And with other stylists also across the board. And I think that the stylist community, at least in Chicago has. I mean, we talk about it.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Darwin]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And I really think some people don't like that, but I don't care. Like, I don't know why not?

[Caroline Turner]

What's. What's the harm? Yeah, I can relate.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I just don't understand what. What's wrong with it? So I'm always happy to answer stylist questions, and I do a lot. I get a lot of DMs, and.

[Caroline Turner]

Interesting.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's fun to have these conversations.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

To, you know, talk about. What do you charge for, like, travel fees? What are you charging for prep? Do you rent out your accessories? Do you include that in your package? So, like, I think every stylist charges at least interior stylists. We charge a little bit differently, but in the end, it kind of comes out the same.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

And again, I think there should be a range, like, if. If you're fresh into doing it. I mean, I was charging a lot less when I first started.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, of course.

[Darwin]

You know, just.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Again, like you were saying, Caroline, but.

[Caroline Turner]

As you gain experience, you charge more.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

That's any job.

[Darwin]

Yeah, but I think that's it, too. Right. It's. If you have no idea, just ask. Just ask.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

What's it going to hurt?

[Caroline Turner]

Just DM me all day. Yeah, exactly.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

What's it going to hurt?

[Darwin]

Like, I'm not even saying that patronizing, but find someone that you look up to and trust and just ask them. And that's. I mean, it's one of the reasons, flat out, ask. Shameless plugs. We have a Facebook group, and I'm involved in a lot of other Facebook groups just from, like, a marketing side where people say, here's what I charge for freelance clients. Xyz. And people say, oh, my God, you're way undercharging. And that's usually what the case is, is especially people that are newer within the industry and don't feel as confident or, yeah, look up to someone. DM them.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Darwin]

Another thing that I've learned, and I'm sure you feel the same way, too, but people are a lot more willing to help than you would think they are. Generally. Sometimes I've DMed people asking them questions, and I'm shocked to respond. So don't be afraid, especially if you don't know, to just find someone, ask on a random Facebook group, ask DM someone and get a feel, and then you can kind of see what's right for you. I think there's no harm in just putting yourself out there in a little way and doing some work to See what kind of people are saying.

[Caroline Turner]

I know when I started, there was a lot of, like, I would follow other designers in Chicago and then maybe be like, I have five questions. Would you ever want to get coffee? If not, here are my five questions, because I know often people will be like, I'd love to pick your brain. No, don't ask people that. That's not. No one will ever say yes to that. I feel like it depends on how you ask. And if you're. For me specifically, I feel like if someone has a specific question, someone just reached out about, they want to be an interior designer. Where do they go to college, they're currently in high school. Happy to answer that. I feel like most of the time, people are happy to answer specifics because they do want to help. It's when you don't know where to start. You don't even know what questions you have, and you just want someone to tell you what to do.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Right. It's like, do your research first and.

[Darwin]

Then come to us. But even what we found from the outpouring of the new podcast, like, there are a lot more people than you'd think who are yearning for that community.

[Caroline Turner]

And so absolutely create it.

[Darwin]

Right. Be the change that you want. You know, see dm someone start, like, have those authentic. As you were talking about on from social media, Kimberly, having those actual authentic conversations with people.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Darwin]

That's how you build it. Right. And that's how you can have. Oh, my gosh, wait, I actually know someone in the industry. Like, that's how it grows. And, you know, maybe, you know, down the line, they could give you a client and they can refer you to your.

[Caroline Turner]

I was just gonna say that pipeline that can come out of, you know, and also something that I did early in my career was I owned my own firm, but I would, like, temp, essentially, for other designers. I had worked for a lot of designers, but then for a month, a designer would need someone to come in for Busy Season or whatever, and I would go in and I would temp, and I would just soak up as much information as possible. And because I was helping them, they would often let me ask a bunch of my business questions. So I would be like, I remember Sasha Adler. I worked for her for a very small amount of time when I had first launched my firm. And I remember she said, do you have any clients pretending like your work is their work? And at the time, I was like, no. Like, that's not happening. And she's like, well, it will. And now it's so funny because. Absolutely. Clients do that all the time. But I think there is certainly. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to sometimes offer to, like, exchange value if you're. I mean, a mentor is the bottom line of what we're saying. Like, trying to find a mentor that you can help benefit in some way, and then they will, you know, plug into your career and help benefit you, and it can end up being, like, a really beautiful relationship. I feel like so much of my career has come from mentors. Even if I didn't say, you are my mentor and I am your mentee, it's just that process that comes with being in an industry and keeping up with the same people. I feel like it can create some really. Yeah. A beautiful relationship and a beautiful pipeline, which is what you're saying. If you want some quick, dirty details, they will be in the Facebook group. I'm gonna put our actual tiered hourly rate. Facebook group is Confessions of an Interior Designer. You can go and sign up. Make sure you answer those little questions and that you are in the design industry. And then, obviously, if you guys want to all add your information, could be fun just to see what everyone else in the industry is doing. And it will certainly be educational, I feel like, for people who are early in their careers or starting their own firm. So thank you guys for those questions. Also, if you have questions or your own confession, make sure you go to our website, CarolinaTurner Co, and there should be a box where you can leave both of those. Okay, Kimberly, last question for you. CTI's tagline is Interiors that make you feel. What is something that made you feel in the last week or so?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I mean, this is so sad and not. No, it's not sad.

[Caroline Turner]

It's okay.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

I'm not gonna say it's sad. No, it's not sad. Dash did make me feel. It's just all the joy that I've had the last two months, I would say, of having this new little puppy in my life that honestly made a big change.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

For me. I mean, it was really. It's been hard, but just, like, so absolutely worth it. It is like having a baby all over again.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. The unconditional love that they provide is like.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

Unlike anything else.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

Like, the joy. Like, the pure joy. And I haven't experienced it in so long. Like, the amount of joy.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

So, God, he makes me feel, like, a lot. Every day, whether I like it or not. Yeah, exactly. I love.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like Penny when I got a kitten, it was the same Thing. I was, like, just watching her giggling. I'm like, when was the last time I did that? I had this, like, pure joy. Yes.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

He's made me so much more present where. Like, where I wouldn't normally go outside if it was freezing cold. Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Wouldn't you have to?

[Kimberly Swidelius]

It's like, I have to. And it's like I leave my phone at home, and I just, you know, can melt into him when we, you know, come back. Or I see him sleeping in a cute position, and I just, like, quit everything and just be still for a while.

[Caroline Turner]

No, you just, like, wanna. And it's that there's these living creatures that you get to take care of and that they love you. Like, I could cry thinking about it. We're so lucky that we have them. And I feel like it's not a coincidence that so many people in interiors are dog people. Like, I actually don't know. All of our employees have dogs. Like, everyone I work with. I just feel like there's some overlap there, at least for me. Having a warm, cozy home that's yours, and then filling that home with beings that you love and love you, and it's just so pure. It's such a pure relationship.

[Darwin]

You were so right when you were saying, Kimberly, it does make you more present.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Darwin]

I never thought of that until you said it. I was like, that's such a light bulb. Because I. I look at my dog 100 times a day and I'm like, how are you this perfect? Actually, I know. Truly. How are you this perfect?

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I get the, like, the feel. It's like overwhelming, acute aggression. I'm like, I'm gonna have to kill you. Cause you're so perfect.

[Darwin]

And it does. You're living your life, and sometimes you forget, like, we live and we see all these beautiful things, and we're in these beautiful spaces, and we do these jobs that feel so privileged all the time that you don't sometimes realize how special it is. And seeing someone or something that you just love and that. That you just love so unconditionally, and you're like, wow. I always, like, I go home, like, to my dog every day. I'm like, oh, my God, this is the best thing in the entire world.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, it makes you grateful. It really? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, thank you all for listening. I am eternally grateful. Kimberly, thank you for being here.

[Kimberly Swidelius]

This is so fun.

[Caroline Turner]

So fun. I would be even more grateful if you would all subscribe. Follow us on Spotify. Rate all of that, please, please, please. Until then, see you next week. And peace be with.