I confess... my client went rogue

Summary

Podcast Summary: Confessions of an Interior Designer

Episode: I confess... my client went rogue
Host: Caroline Turner
Guest: Abigail Morris (Abigail Morris Interiors)
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Caroline Turner welcomes Abigail Morris, founder of Abigail Morris Interiors, to share the real, unfiltered chaos behind luxury interior design. From career pivots and the realities of entrepreneurship to wild client stories—including the pain of seeing your work undone—this conversation delivers honest, hilarious, and sometimes jaw-dropping stories from inside the industry. The episode is shaped by frank listener confessions, industry advice, and personal anecdotes about the tricky balance between a designer’s vision and client control.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abigail’s Journey: From Tech to Design

• Circuitous Route to Interior Design
  • Abigail began her design interest at age 12 but took a practical path into journalism and corporate tech before returning to her true passion.
  • Undertook a certificate at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago during the pandemic, mainly for confidence and technical skills (AutoCAD).
  • Abigail and Caroline both stress that design school is often about training employees for big firms, not preparing you to run your own business. ([03:33])

“I wish I would have done at least a business minor. What was I thinking?” — Caroline (05:31)

• The Big Career Jump
  • Abigail credits her shift to a reassessment during the pandemic and describes the financial realities of entry-level design roles (“couldn’t afford rent on 30k a year”—07:34).
  • She emphasizes the value of business skills and confidence, recommending targeted coursework over full degree programs.

2. Starting Out: Building a Client Base and Confidence

• First Clients & Networking
  • Started with friends and family projects, often unpaid portfolio work; built relationships with realtors for early jobs.
  • Social media now plays a big role in attracting clients.
• Coping with imposter syndrome: Abigail admits her own struggles and mentions it took years to subside.

“I was scared shitless. I was so afraid I had to wake up every day and choose purpose…” — Abigail (09:48)

3. Entrepreneurship Realities

• The Importance of Professional Support
  • Both recommend hiring a bookkeeper/accountant early on—even before you think you can afford it.
  • Caroline: “Get a business loan to hire an accountant. Amen. That would be my first hire.” (06:21)
• Imposter Syndrome & Facing Fears
  • Even years in, both designers struggle with self-doubt, but agree persistence wins.

4. Listener Confession #1: The Rogue Client

• The Confession ([11:06–15:43])
  • A client, after a lengthy and custom design process, impulsively rips down a gorgeous, expensive wallpaper to paint TikTok-inspired blue stripes—messy and unprofessional.
  • They also paint a vintage dresser (weeks to source!) sloppily, destroying its charm.
• Reaction & Reflections
  • The designers are aghast at the wasted effort and money; discuss feeling flummoxed, powerless, and frustrated.
  • Caroline emphasizes the tension between client ownership and designer pride:

“How much do you really have when someone else takes over a space you’ve put so much care into?” — Caroline (15:43)

• Both agree it’s all about boundaries, choosing the right clients, and sometimes just walking away.

Notable Quotes

• “Standing there, I just couldn’t process it. The wallpaper… was now replaced by something that undermined the entire design.” — Confession, read by Caroline ([12:46])
• “Are you okay? Like carbon monoxide… do they have a detector?” — Caroline ([14:28])
• “I guess I’ll just know never to work with them again or refer them to anybody… make sure they go on some sort of blacklist and move on with my life.” — Caroline (17:25)

5. Listener Confession #2: Scope Creep & Client Meltdowns

• The Confession ([20:02–26:32])
  • Designer, 38 weeks pregnant, goes above and beyond for a distant family connection, with the scope ballooning far past original intent—without contract or compensation.
  • A minor install mistake triggers client anger; accusations fly, with demands for unnecessary refunds and emotional distress.
  • Days later, the client apologizes in a letter with a restaurant gift card, blaming anxiety over change.

Notable Quotes

• “She accused me of ordering a bigger rug just to make more money… the margin was probably $30.” — Caroline (23:11)

• “This is almost worse. That’s like my ex sending me a letter after he cheated and being like, sorry I did that.” — Caroline (26:33)

• “Thank God I didn’t go into early labor because of you, you nutcase.” — Caroline (26:53)

• Discussion: Setting Boundaries & Scope

  • Both stress: address scope creep from the start, set clear contract terms (“pad by 10-20% for creep”), and educate clients on billing and hours.
  • Holding firm when clients panic about design changes (“live with it for two weeks before deciding”).

• Advice for New Designers

  • Start small, don’t dive into full construction projects without experience or capital, and always address scope up front.

6. Career & Creativity Advice

• For Prospective Designers:
  • “Just do it. Don’t overthink it.”
  • Try internships or small projects to see the real day-to-day work.
  • Mistakes are guaranteed, but what matters is how you handle them.
• On Authenticity
  • Sourcing inspiration outside the Internet—old books, travel, house tours, and nature—helps forge a unique style and avoid creative burnout.

“Find inspiration outside of the Internet.” — Abigail (41:56)
“Creativity comes back online when you touch grass.” — Abigail (43:06)

7. Industry & Pop Culture Fun

• The designers riff on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, the OC, Laguna Beach, and ‘00s nostalgia, connecting these guilty pleasures back to refueling their creativity and offering welcome escapism.
• Abigail is working on a dream hotel project in Ouray, CO—a “punk rock grandma” boutique transformation—thanks to some lucky family connections.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | 05:31 | "I wish I would have done at least a business minor..." | Caroline | | 09:48 | "I was scared shitless... I had to wake up every day..." | Abigail | | 12:46 | “Standing there, I just couldn’t process it…” | Confession | | 14:28 | "Are you okay? Like carbon monoxide… do they have a detector?"| Caroline | | 15:43 | "How much do you really have when someone else takes over…" | Caroline | | 23:11 | "She accused me of ordering a bigger rug just to make more money..." | Caroline | | 26:33 | "This is almost worse. That’s like my ex sending me a letter..." | Caroline | | 41:56 | "Find inspiration outside of the Internet." | Abigail | | 43:06 | "Creativity comes back online when you touch grass." | Abigail |

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Important Timestamps

• Abigail’s journey & tech background: 00:58–04:54
• Business skills in design & accounting woes: 05:10–06:56
• Going solo & building a client list: 07:02–09:37
• Imposter syndrome & entrepreneurship: 09:41–10:21
• Confession 1: Client goes rogue: 11:06–15:43
• Confession 2: Scope creep & meltdown: 20:02–26:32
• Advice for new designers: 37:09–41:24
• How to stay true creatively: 41:56–43:53
• Pop culture/pop nostalgia & self-care: 44:52–48:43
• Where to find Abigail: 48:51

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, funny, sharp, and at times a little snarky—full of real talk between two designers who’ve learned to balance client expectations, their own creative vision, and what it takes to not just survive, but thrive, in the world of luxury interiors.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for interior designers, creatives considering a career leap, or anyone who loves the intersection of high-style and high-drama. Caroline and Abigail keep it real about the work behind the aesthetics—and make it clear the biggest design challenge isn’t always the wallpaper, but managing the clients.

Find Abigail online: Instagram @abigailmorris.interiors
Connect with the show: Visit Caroline Turner’s links in show notes

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Confession. Today we're joined by Abigail Morris, founder of Abigail Morris Interiors, a boutique studio born from a lifelong passion for design. While she started her career in corporate tech, Abigail has always been practicing interior design in some form, even creating her first custom wallpaper for her own room at 12 years old. Welcome. Hi. We're so happy to have you.

[B]

Thanks, Caroline. So excited to be here.

[A]

Oh, my God, this is going to be so fun. I always have so much fun with you when we're at, like, events and stuff in Chicago, and you really genuinely crack me up.

[B]

We've got the chat, we have the vibe.

[A]

Absolutely. So get ready for some yak today. Okay. Before we get into everything, tell us.

[B]

How you got here. Well, I took a bit of a circuitous route to design, as you mentioned at the beginning. I did create my first custom wallpaper at age 12, and one would think that would, like, lead right into a long and illustrious career, but alas, no. I actually went to school for journalism and business and then ended up in corporate tech for the past 10 years. And amazing. It wasn't for me, it was not amazing. Can say definitively not amazing. Met a lot of great people along the way, and it was a fun way to spend my 20s, but I.

[A]

Mean, like, you have to be very smart to be able to do that. So it had to, like, prepped you in some ways for your own.

[B]

I mean, definitely managing, you know, difficult, like, large accounts and things like that. For sure, there are transferable skills, but I kind of landed there because it was the safe route. Yeah, you know, I. This sounds so silly, but I didn't think that I could have, like. I didn't really think about interior design as a career.

[A]

No, it's not silly. I didn't either.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like that seems so obvious in hindsight, but I was like, oh, I'll, you know, I'll get a job. I'll do the thing. You know, you go to work and it's fine. But I was one of the many people during the pandemic who reassessed and was like, oh, I'm absolutely not happy about what I'm doing. What is even the point if I'm not passionate about it? I have zero passion for software, but I love. Yeah, crazy. But I've always loved design. Have always been doing it. And, you know, helping friends with paint colors and family members are giving unsolicited design advice to people who side eye me. So I took the leap. I actually did the. There's a certificate program at the Art Institute, and so I did that. Really didn't need to do that other than the AutoCAD and SketchUp.

[A]

Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Because, really, this is a big reason I wanted to have you on is to talk about this jump that you made, because I think it's so incredibly brave to leave a very stable golden.

[B]

Handcuff situation, and then to be like.

[A]

I'm gonna risk it, and I'm gonna do the thing that I clearly know I love and I'm good at. Talk to us a little bit more about that. And if you don't mind, about the Art Institute program.

[B]

Absolutely. So the biggest thing that I think that STOPP was confidence. I knew that I had a design perspective and that I was good at those things, but I've never done a draw an elevation before. And, like, a lot of the terms that I was really intimidated. So it's like, I have to get education. So I tossed around, like, do I go back for four years? That seemed insane and expensive. So I landed on the. There's a certificate at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, and you take, like, five courses. At the time, they were online, which was great because it was Covid. So I was just doing them after work. But really, it's like an Intro to Color Theory, Intro to Interior Design. But really, the only thing I learned that was important was, like, how to draft an autocad. Yeah.

[A]

The program. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I took Photoshop and those kinds of things. And I'm like, that's so obsolete with.

[A]

Yeah. The best thing that's ever happened to us personally.

[B]

Yes. So I think it was helpful, like, for my confidence to go back to school and to learn how to do digital drafting. But a lot of people who I talk to, I'm like, I would just take those classes and skip the rest because it took me an extra couple of years to finish that and take the next step. But for me, ultimately, it did help with my confidence, so it wasn't a total loss. Sure.

[A]

And I mean, I even think about design school in that. Like, I remember our color theory class. I'm like, y' all don't know what color goes with what color.

[B]

I'm like, have you ever seen a color obvious?

[A]

I don't, but you realize, like, it's innate for some people and it's absolutely not for others. And design school is actually not to build entrepreneurs. It's not to build solo designers or to go off and build your own firm. It's to build Gensler employees.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's to build employees to go work for like a big firm. And so I think you learn different things. Even if you go to a four year program, which I did, I'm grateful I did it like, you know, it made sense at the time, but I would have made the exact same decision you did when you, when you switched. I also think it's great because it's like a concrete first step of I'm going to take these classes. This will be the thing that, like, I am, I'm moving forward in a meaningful way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Do you. Because I feel like you talk about this on the Internet of like changing course, but I get so many inquiries about, like, I don't like my job. I want to move into interiors. How do I do it?

[B]

Same. I get it all the time. And that's why I think it's so important we're talking about this. I'm like, okay, there are options for online courses.

[A]

It seems like there's not, but there is.

[B]

And you don't need to take the whole thing. Like, yes, great. If you do, especially if you want to go work for somebody else, I think it's really important to show that you're committed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're like, if you're like me and you're like, no, no, I'm not going to go work for somebody else. I'm just going to start my own thing. I think that was a waste of time and you should learn how to run a business.

[A]

Well, no, I say all the time, I wish I would have done at least a business minor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What was I thinking?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, I nearly failed accounting. Why did I think I could do.

[B]

Truly? I dropped out of business school, so the irony.

[A]

Listen, I think they make it too complicated. They do, okay? Men created business school and they make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

[B]

Amen. Because, like, also, nobody's doing their own accounting. Like you're hiding.

[A]

And if you are, you're not running.

[B]

If you are, the IRS is coming for you.

[A]

No, When I, I was too poor to have an accountant, I was literally waking up in the middle of the night. Like, I guess they're coming for me. Like, I'm just gonna go to jail. No, because you can't. You don't even know what you don't.

[B]

Know, No, I had that same experience and then I had to hire somebody to come in and clean up my bookkeeping. And it was more expensive than if I would have just hired a bookkeeper. So number one advice to new designers, hire a bookkeeper even if you can't afford it.

[A]

Honestly, get a business loan to hire an accountant.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Because, yeah, you're so right.

[B]

You heard it here first.

[A]

And by the way, that's horrible business advice. But like, I really would like. One of the things I did in my business is hire probably before I should have. And it made me look more legitimate. Yeah. Even if I wasn't necessarily. I mean, legitimacy also from the people who, like, knew more about things than I did. Like, it ultimately legitimized my business in a way that I wasn't meaning to. But yeah, that would be my first hire.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

1,000%.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Well, stop.

[B]

Bookkeeper then. CPA and somebody who does both. If you can afford it, then yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Spot on. Okay, I interrupted. You go back to after Art Institute. You completed those classes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then how did you decide I'm gonna take the jump and not go work for someone else?

[B]

I. This is gonna sound so silly, but it was like, it was totally money motivated.

[A]

If I'm being silly, that's business.

[B]

Yes. If I'm being completely transparent, I feel like I had worked myself to a place where I was really, I was financially successful. I just wasn't fulfilled and I didn't want to go work. I. I did go interview places and kind of to go back to our conversation before we started recording, it's like Everybody was offering 30 grand. I'm like, I've got.

[A]

Actually insanely insulting.

[B]

I'm like, I will. I can't afford my rent if I do that. And.

[A]

Yeah. Where do you want me to live? The street.

[B]

Exactly. So I was like, okay, like, can't afford the rent on my one and a half bedroom apartment in Bucktown, so that's not gonna work. I guess I'm gonna have to work for myself. Yeah. I can't do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was, it was really a financially motivated decision. I also do feel like I have a design perspective.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I know what I like and I don't wanna design in somebody else's. I guess through their lens. Like, I wanted to just go for it.

[A]

Well, and I think you were in a work environment for 10 years.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Half of what working for somebody else is, is learning what you do and don't like about how someone manages and how they Run, you know, their clients and all of that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So I feel all of that prep. And you didn't need to have another person telling you how to do something.

[B]

Exactly. And I feel like that. And again, this is. You know, those transferable skills weren't factored into any kind of pay, so it was like, okay, well, then that's not gonna work for me.

[A]

It's not gonna make sense for. Well. Cause like, you know, as you own your own business, as I'm sure we all know, like, you're your own marketer. You're your.

[B]

Like, there's.

[A]

You wear so many hats. Oh, yeah. And when you have those skills, it's hard to go to just being like a paper pusher. Junior designer.

[B]

Exactly. You're like, I'm not gonna be fulfilled by that either. Like, I wanna design.

[A]

How did you get your first client?

[B]

My first client was a friend.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

It was a project where they were renovating their home. She's like, I need some help. Can we. Can you do it for free? And can you use it as a portfolio project? So I did that.

[A]

Those clients are the luckiest. No, truly, by the way, I have a couple of those and I'm like, wow, you guys got a really good deal.

[B]

I know, Truly. Now I get to revisit my work, which is fun.

[A]

Yeah, that's so fun.

[B]

Yeah. So my first projects were those I networked with some realtors who gave me some of my earlier jobs. And then it was kind of friends and family at the beginning that then started to go into word of mouth and now starting to get stuff from social media.

[A]

Yeah. Which you're killing, by the way. I love watching your videos.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

I'm always, like, clapping from where I'm watching. I love it. I love it. Okay, well, that is fabulous and I'm really proud of you. That's kind of a weird thing to say, but.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, that feels like a.

[A]

Major step to take. And like, it's really empowering.

[B]

And I should say, like, anybody who's also like, I was fucking scared. Sorry I'm cursed here.

[A]

No, no, no. Please. Do we curse here? Don't worry.

[B]

I was scared shitless. I was so afraid I had to wake up every day and choose purpose over because I had imposter syndrome. And I think it only just recently went away and it still pops rears its head. But yeah, I started doing. Taking clients in four years ago and it only recently went away, so don't let that stop you.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I also think similarly, we're on year six, and we just became profitable, like, a year ago. So, you know, there's, like, lots of things that I think you think you're gonna have. Every once you do it, it's all gonna be perfect. And, like, you've. But it takes those things.

[B]

Then there's the next shit to go.

[A]

The next thing comes out.

[B]

Because that's entrepreneurship.

[A]

Great. No, you're so right. There's always something else. Always, always, always. Before we get into the confessions, which I'm so excited about, what's a vice you partake in?

[B]

Oh, I'm a pothead.

[A]

I think we share the same vice. Yeah, we were talking about that before. Listen, there is a reason that we're so creative, Right.

[B]

Truly, if I. Yeah. If I had to give up, like, any other, like, I'd give up alcohol. No question.

[A]

Same. I haven't drank in almost three and a half years. And, like, don't miss it. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna have a dirty martini tonight, but.

[A]

Well, you're about to also get married. Like, you're planning a wed. There's a lot going on.

[B]

Oh, my God. Listen, send help and dirty martinis and joints.

[A]

It's the only way. The only way. Let's do our confession. I still think about this one ridiculous experience I had last year with a client. It was a full home remodel for a couple who were really clear they wanted a playful, whimsical style woven throughout the house, but in a way that still felt sophisticated from the start. I spent a lot of time understanding their vibe, going through inspiration boards, discussing how they live day to day, and thinking carefully about how to make the design fun without it feeling over the top or chaotic. We went through color palettes, fabrics, and finishes with my goal in mind. To translate their fun energy into a cohesive, livable home that still felt polished. For their primary bathroom, I sourced a wallpaper that was intricate, colorful, and whimsical without being garish. Right. Took weeks to narrow down the perfect print, coordinate shipping, and schedule installations so everything would align perfectly. The colors tied in with the rest of the suite in subtle ways, and I thought it added just the right amount of whimsy. When it was installed, I was genuinely thrilled, and so were they. They commented on the details, how the pattern caught the light differently throughout the day, and how it made the space feel joyful, which, like that moment when your wallpaper you've been waiting on for so long goes up, it really is a whole moment. Oh, my God. It's so.

[B]

I'M screaming, crying, throwing up. No.

[A]

It's like, okay, yeah. No, this was worth it. Like, all the work, all the money, all of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A few weeks later, I stopped by to check on progress, and my heart just sank.

[B]

My heart just stinks.

[A]

I know. I'm scared. The wallpaper I had installed was gone. Completely ripped down in its place. Where thick blue stripes painted across the walls.

[B]

No.

[A]

The client proudly told me she had seen the idea on TikTok. Oh, my God. And had been inspired to do it herself. Oh. These weren't clean or measured. They were messy and inconsistent. Clearly the work of someone who hadn't done this kind of thing before. Standing there, I just couldn't process it. The wallpaper had been carefully chosen and met, and it was now completely replaced by something that undermined the entire design. Not to mention they just burned, like.

[B]

And they paid for it.

[A]

Yeah, like, easily 7, 8, $10,000, depending.

[B]

On the wallpaper, and then the cost of installation and then the cost of ripping it down.

[A]

What do you mean? What do you mean?

[B]

I'm so flummoxed also.

[A]

And then to walk into your project and it's just gone.

[B]

Get into no communication of like, hey, I hired you, a luxury interior designer to tell me what to do. But you know what? I'm just gonna go rolling.

[A]

I'm actually just gonna rip it all down if you don't mind. And own design without telling you. Whoa, whoa. Oh, there's more. Oh, God. Then there was the dresser. I had sourced a rare vintage piece in beautiful antique oak with brass hardware.

[B]

Oh, my God. Is it painted in stripes?

[A]

A real one of a kind find that had taken me weeks of calls negotiating and coordinating shipping. It fit the bedroom perfectly, adding character and grounding the space. They painted it flat white like a chalk paint. The brushstrokes were uneven, the layers thin and sloppy. Oh, it didn't just lose its charm. It looked cheap and completely out of place. I remember thinking this was the crown jewel of the room, and it's now unrecognizable. What is wrong with these people?

[B]

Well, it's like, why wouldn't you just buy something that was white, like ikea?

[A]

Like, at that point. What are we doing here? I'm.

[B]

I'm at a loss for why we.

[A]

Should check for, like, a gas leak or something in their house. Because who does this? Is she okay? Like carbon monoxide. Do they have a detector? Because I'm worried.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes, there's something. I'm truly worried. The shock quickly turned into frustration and confusion. It wasn't just a difference in taste. It was all the thought, research, and care I had poured into creating a cohesive personal home gone in a single weekend. I wanted to sit them down and explain why these choices disrupted the design. But it's their home, and I can't force someone to see what I see. I also found myself replaying all the little moments of effort that got overlooked. The time I spent analyzing the natural light throughout the day to choose the right wallpaper sheen, tracking down original, one of a kind antiques with specific details, or coordinating delivery so nothing would sit in a warehouse for weeks. All of that was invisible now. And yet I couldn't help but feel a strange mix of pride and irritation. I had done everything I could to create a home that was thoughtful and playful. And no matter what, that effort still existed, even if it was hidden under stripes and a coat of paint. Wow. They're a bigger person than me. In the end, I didn't confront them. I took a deep breath, photographed what I could, and made peace with it. It's a tricky line in interior design. How much do you really have when someone else takes over a space you've put so much care into?

[B]

So true.

[A]

I mean, that's an excellent question, because I certainly struggle with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Never to this level. Like, destruction.

[B]

No.

[A]

That I feel like is, you're right.

[B]

They're just lighting. The clients are lighting money on fire. And this is what I cannot get past.

[A]

Well, and it does sound like someone who I'm gonna stereotype a little bit, but, like, someone who may not have a job. The client who may not have, like, a lot better to do with their energy and want. You know how sometimes clients become an interior designer? I'm using very heavy air quotes.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

When you're in the middle of the process. Yes. They're the arm because you gave them three options and they picked out of it, and they think, now they can do your job. I feel that there may be a little bit of that in this. Of, like, they wanted to put their own stamp on it so it felt like them. Yep. So they could be Feel more honest in telling themselves they designed.

[B]

But what's crazy is most clients just, like, change out the art. Like, you know, something more lo fi when they do that.

[A]

Literally something normal that you didn't pay for. You approved this?

[B]

Yes. No, that's what's crazy to me is it's like, okay, if you don't like it, then that's the time for revisions. Or like, hey, I was thinking of Blue stripe. Like, maybe then she could.

[A]

We can have someone paint a blue stripe, if that's what you want.

[B]

Probably in the right color, the right width.

[A]

Like, there could have been a thousand ways to do that, but instead you were like, oh, I have an idea. I know better. I'm going rogue and I'm destroying something. And I do think there's, at least for me, an internal struggle of like, obviously the client is paying for your time. Right. They're paying for your design. And if they. They're okay with burning it all down, like, I guess there's nothing.

[B]

I mean, as long as she's getting. As long as the designer's been paid for in full for everything. I mean, it's kind of like, okay.

[A]

I guess I'll just know never to.

[B]

Work with them again or refer them to anybody.

[A]

Make sure that they go in some sort of blacklist and move on with my life. I mean. Yeah, there's nothing you can do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's hard, though. It's hard to watch someone dismantle. Would you have said something?

[B]

It's really tough. I think it depends on the relationship with the client because, like, sir, I'm thinking of my client roster right now and certain clients I would absolutely have no problem having that conversation with and others where I know that I'm not going to get them to move the needle. I would just be like, okay, collect my check and move on.

[A]

I completely agree. And I also have some clients who. They can tell by my face. Yeah. That I don't like something.

[B]

Oh, I don't have a poker face. Like, no, I'm putting it all out there.

[A]

I can tell you're not happy about that. And I'm like, correct.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes, you asked. Yeah, I'm not. You know, so, I mean, you're paying.

[B]

Me for my opinion. Ostensibly. So I'm not gonna not give you my full.

[A]

Speaking of. To go on a tiny little rant. I made a video on the Internet at one point and it was like my hot takes. And people truly lost their ever loving minds, like in a way that I have never seen before. Death threats type of situation. Because I said you shouldn't do an accent wall. It's actually terrifying.

[B]

No, people are insane.

[A]

People are.

[B]

This morning, someone. Someone told me that they put all of a certain hardware that I also said on the Internet that they shouldn't do. She goes, well, good thing you'll never see my house to tell me it's tacky. You ruined my day. I'm like, okay, it wasn't this is not about you. Also, the Internet makes us use negative hooks. So it's not my fault.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I don't. You. This is the one video you've seen from me that's not my fault. Like, I don't. It is. But one person commented on the post and was like, as a designer, I would never have these strong of opinions. This is not what my clients pay me for. I.

[B]

Well, then your clients pay you to be a doorman.

[A]

They pay you to be a project manager.

[B]

I'm confused.

[A]

What's the point? People come to me for that. Like, yeah, contractors hate my opinions, but that's what people pay me for.

[B]

Right. I don't.

[A]

I'm so confused what your job is. Yeah, it makes no sense. Okay, sorry.

[B]

Sounds like a decorator. Sorry. That was such a thing to say. You'll have to cut that part.

[A]

But I'm such a bleep.

[B]

Don't worry.

[A]

I love that word too. My Catholic mom is like Caroline clutching my pearls. Okay. Penance. The clients obviously deserve this penance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think it's that they never have another designer work with them again.

[B]

Yeah, they're not allowed to have a designer. No, she's a designer. She doesn't need one.

[A]

Why would she need one? She's going to start her own firm.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And good luck to you. And good luck. I have some clients I could send you.

[B]

Yeah, I have some referrals.

[A]

So evil. But also, listen, if the shoe fits. Confession 2. Confession 2. Let me tell you about the time I was 38 weeks pregnant, running on swollen ankles and iced lattes and had one of the most jaw clenching client experiences of my life. Okay.

[B]

This is my biggest fear is having to be pregnant and doing this job.

[A]

But continue. The only way I would ever get pregnant is if I could take a one year sabbatical.

[B]

Oh, we'd have to move to the UK because that's just standard.

[A]

Ye.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, actually it. Okay. Anyway, sorry, I'm. No, yeah. No, yeah. I don't think we're ever going to be seeing that for me. Okay. This client, an older single woman and a distant friend of my mother in law, had hired me to manage her full home renovation. We weren't super close in the beginning, but over the course of the project, we built up a really lovely rapport. I do want to say the phrase mother in law is throwing up a red flag.

[B]

I was saying distant friend of mother in law. I'm like, ooh, this is red flag. Number one.

[A]

Yep. Yep. Not sounding great.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Tough start. That's okay. I was her project manager, design guide, and unofficial emotional support human. Especially as her contractor slowly revealed himself to be the kind of guy who assumes women don't know what level of drywall textures are. Spoiler. I do. The original scope was supposed to be simple. It always is. Hard surface selections and a few counter stools. That's it. She had all her old furniture in storage and swore she didn't need anything else. Except she did. Always, bit by bit, in our weekly meetings, she'd casually mention needing a buffet, then a new dining table, then a rug for her bedroom, a media stand or two. And because we had such a good relationship, and because I'm pathologically allergic to disappointing people, I just did it. Been there. Yep. I sourced everything, I took measurements, I coordinated the orders. No new scope, no extra contract.

[B]

Oh, no. I have a fear that the budget stayed the same.

[A]

Fast forward to install day, my very last install before maternity leave. God bless you, baby bump. Fully torpedo mode. I show up ready to make the magic happen. She wasn't home. Blessing. So we got everything installed beautifully except the main media stand. It hung over the trim by about 2 inches. Oof. Hugh. Panic. Turns out I had measured mid project before the door trim went on. Oh. I immediately texted her, owned the mistake, found a new home for the piece with her approval and sent her photos. Great. Problem solved, right? No. She stopped by the next day and the dominoes fell. That one media stand opened the floodgates. Suddenly, the finish on a console looked totally different than it did online. It was a little off, I'll give her that. And she couldn't believe I had ordered a 9 by 12 rug for her king bed instead of an 8 by 10, because she always used 8 by tens, which is so funny. When clients do that, they're like, assume that you should know something that makes no sense and has no base.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Or if you're like, I must have an 8 by 10 rug here. That's what we gather in the. That's what you call a few requirements.

[A]

Approve this proposal. It said the size on it. I have to assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That marble top on the buffet, wouldn't that stain? Get this. She accused me of ordering a bigger rug just to make more money.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I wish I were kidding.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The margin on that was probably $30. Yeah, like you made $30. Yeah. That was worth it.

[B]

Oh, my God. Great. I'll have two salads from Sweet Green for that.

[A]

What do they think? We're okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Fine. I wish I were kidding. This woman who I had advoc. Gone above and beyond 4 and who knew I was very, very pregnant, called me in tears, saying she hated everything. Okay.

[B]

That's the other thing. The disrespect.

[A]

You're.

[B]

This woman is absolutely insane. Especially since she's connected to the family.

[A]

Well. And, you know, like, you're number one. You're already a bad person because you're taking advantage of someone.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know, you asked her for free work.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I, in that position, would be like, I need to pay you more.

[B]

I'm like, is she getting off on the power? Because it kind of sounds like it.

[A]

Absolutely sounds like it. And I mean, this is when people reveal themselves.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

Yep. When you're like, okay. There was a couple red flags. The fact that she was willing and okay to take advantage of me in that moment probably should have been a red flag, but I was trying to, like, fulfill my obligation.

[B]

Right. But, like, here's the thing. Like, shit's gonna go wrong in every single design and no matter what. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like. And so there are gonna be times when we need to fix something or source something, or something comes in and we problem solve, but it's the taking advantage afterwards that it's 1000% and it's.

[A]

Not the end of the world. Things happen. We will always fix them. Yes.

[B]

And if it's our mistake, you know, we're covering it.

[A]

We're always gonna own up to it and cover. And if you have a designer that's not. That's a completely different thing. But no one who is talking right.

[B]

Now, nobody who knows the level of drywall finishes is doing that.

[A]

No. We are all. I mean, I can't tell you how many things I cover per project. If it's even remotely our fault, it's like, fine, we'll just handle it because it's not worth the. You know, if we're wrong, we're wrong and we own. But the. The distrust of clients when you've given them no reason to distrust you feels really disheartening.

[B]

Yeah. Because. Because the whole. You only get successful design when you.

[A]

Have the trust 1000%. Full stop. And the best clients who I have, who really trusted me and hired me for the right reasons have the best homes.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Bar none.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're the ones that are in magazines. They're the ones that were still so close. You know, we talk all the Time. Because they let us do our jobs.

[B]

And you're gonna be working on their homes forever 1,000%.

[A]

And, like, you know, it feels obvious, but then you get some clients where you're like, wow, okay, so I feel bad for everyone else in their life. Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, why did you hire me if you don't trust me?

[A]

You. You hired someone to. Then you. You wanted to do this.

[B]

You wanna. You wanna pay me, but you don't trust me. Yeah.

[A]

Makes no sense.

[B]

No, it's wild.

[A]

No sense. She wanted refunds for the wrong items even though they'd been approved and warehoused for months. My blood pressure was so high, my OB almost sent me to the hospital.

[B]

Oh, my God, she's gonna get preeclampsia.

[A]

Yeah. Literally over a rug. At that point, I had to put on my big girl designer voice. I gently but firmly let her know I'd refund the piece that varied in shade, but the rest approved, placed, and staying put. She was icy, but relented. A week later, I got a letter in the actual mail, an apology and a gift card to a fancy restaurant. She said she had been overwhelmed by the change and didn't know how to process it. That I had been right, that the house looked beautiful. It did. You know what? That's almost, like, a little crazier.

[B]

This is almost worse.

[A]

That's literally my ex sending me a letter after he cheated and being like, sorry I did that.

[B]

Yeah. Why does this feel gaslighted? Jason?

[A]

No, for. For sure. She. Oh, my God.

[B]

It feels like. Yeah, it feels like she doesn't kind of.

[A]

Thanks for the gift card, by the way. What the hell?

[B]

Yeah, it's like. I don't even know. It's insane.

[A]

Thank God I didn't go into early labor because of you, you nutcase.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this woman needs a therapist.

[A]

Oh, for sure. And I will say that is something I've learned in my career is like, sometimes clients are just freaked out by the new and they envision something else and they need to get used to it. I used to panic when clients would be like, we don't know about this, blah, blah, blah. One, I've learned not to piecemeal install because that's when they don't like things. But two, I always say, live with it for two weeks, and if you still don't like it, I will give you three different options or however many more you'll fix it to solve this, but just live with it for a second. And 99% of the time they're fine.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I realized I do the same thing. I'll buy something for my house that I'm sure works, and I'll bring it, and I'll be like, what was I doing? And then I live with it for a second. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.

[B]

You're like, yeah, that was supposed to be here.

[A]

Exactly. So if I'm doing that as a designer, you know, it makes sense that our clients are, but I think that we have to hold the line.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, we can't fold immediately and be like, okay, no worries. We'll fix it.

[B]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Because that sets the tone.

[B]

It's like, we'll fix it if you don't like it in two weeks.

[A]

Yes. If you still don't like it, I will. And at that point in the process, your client should know you'll make it right. Because you've probably made other things right at that point.

[B]

Right. Especially if you're, like, working in phase.

[A]

Construction and, like, doing. You know, like, there have been plenty of times where we, like, didn't order the right amount of tile. Now we have to, like, you know.

[B]

Oh, we're missing one piece of hardware.

[A]

You're like, mm, perfect. Got it. No worries.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No. I think that that is just part of it. But I can also see how being 38 weeks pregnant, she was already taking crazy advantage, and then she became like, yeah, a very. I almost said the devil, and that feels a little aggressive. So I'm just gonna be, like, a very not nice person. But, like, I do think that that had. I mean, how heightened must you feel in that state? I mean, I can't even imagine.

[B]

I just, like, don't understand. It's like, you. Do you have other people? Can you go to get, like, coffee with a girlfriend and bitch about your design and maybe not yell at the pregnant interior designer who has just done.

[A]

All of this for free, by the way.

[B]

Gone above and beyond as she is literally about to give birth at any.

[A]

Because I can only imagine how much she charged for hard surfaces and Mars.

[B]

And four counter tools. And then the scope creep just, like, went.

[A]

Just entirely blew up. Which, if there are any younger designers listening. In my experience, a way to handle scope creep is in the very beginning. When you're talking about scope, address it. Say, there is almost always scope creep. We can build it in now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do you want us to pad this by 20%? I always do that so that we have room for scope creep. If not, we won't. But when you ask for more you will be getting an additional contract. And if you say that up front, unless you're just crazy, which you can't, you can't help. They generally know. And there still probably will be scope creep. But at least you have the opportunity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To be like, listen, remember, Remember how I said that this was gonna happen and you didn't wanna pay more? Now you have to. Yep. Like, they can't play dumb.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Always pad your hours and tell them why. It's like I had a 10% increase. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I send out my proposal, which, like line items, how many hours? I think every single thing in SC cost, it's like depending on the project, I'm padding at 10 to 15% for like unexpected scope creep and like things discovered during constructed.

[A]

Well, and not only that, like you don't know always how your clients are going to make decisions when you're sending.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

They could need 50 options or they could need three.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like the 50 options, obviously you're going to need to burn a lot more hours than you will like the three options.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I also think padding just like in general, until you know what you're.

[B]

Working with and tell clients we move as quickly and like your invoices are going to reflect how quickly you make.

[A]

Decisions, how much time we actually use. This isn't. I think sometimes when clients get proposals, they think that like we give a range, like for example, $100,000 to $150,000, for a thousand to whatever, however many hours. And that range, unless we're going to exceed, we'll tell them. But like we will always be within that and we are doing, doing actual hours. So we're not billing for like no reason. Like, you can see exactly what we're using. This just gives you an idea. Yep. But I think they think that if you say it's going to be 1500 hours, you're going to use every single hour because you want to.

[B]

Yeah. No, it's like you may use less, but also you may use more if, if the client needs more handholding.

[A]

Yeah. And that's something that the clients can control, but I think they don't.

[B]

It's something that has to be managed and talked about at the very beginning.

[A]

1,000%.

[B]

I also think it has to come up, like, you have to say it at least three times.

[A]

Yes. And the more you get into it, the more you'll realize like, you know, this is just business. And most people do.

[B]

People aren't questioning their lawyers or their Accountants when they're sending them their billable hours. No, no. Why is it ours that you're trying to pull apart?

[A]

Because people see us as, like, this could be a hobby. It's a fun job. So why would we need to get people.

[B]

Yeah. Come see how fun it is. Like, it is fun day in the life. Yeah.

[A]

Let's go along together. Everyone who's listening to this who's a designer is laughing. Cause they're like, that's hilarious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so funny.

[B]

Yeah. It's 5 to 10% creative fun and 90% project and people management.

[A]

And the clients. I think we're doing our jobs right if they're seeing the fun part.

[B]

Exactly, Exactly. We're taking that on so that you can sit back and relax and enjoy.

[A]

It should be fun.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But also, remember that there's so much that has to happen behind the scenes for. For that to happen.

[B]

Not to mention, you know, tariffs.

[A]

Oh, my. I mean, and that whole side of things is just definitely not making our lives any easier.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm like, here's your proposal that I can't guarantee for more than 24 hours. Yes.

[A]

You have to sign this right now. Yeah, sorry. That's. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. It's right now or never. Yep. It's such a weird time. No, it's.

[B]

What a time to be alive.

[A]

Truly. Okay, I have more questions for you, but before we do that, let's do some pin penance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Penance for the interior designer in a. In a positive way. I hope she had a very smooth delivery and get to take some, like, actual maternity leave.

[A]

Yep. And if you're listening, please give yourself a break, because I can only imagine owning a business.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Having an infant.

[B]

Also, we're in awe of you. You are literally doing.

[A]

Oh, my God. I mean, you're actually a hero. And I. Yeah. I could never. So I applaud you. You. Penance for the client. Okay.

[B]

Also, never allowed to have a designer again.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. These people have. Their privileges have been revoked.

[B]

Yeah. No. Also, she needs to have a friend where she can let it out and get a therapist.

[A]

Yep. And I hope that when she goes to dinner with that friend, that her dirty martini is warm. Yes. Yes.

[B]

That is.

[A]

It's not gonna hurt her. It's not gonna, like.

[B]

No. Honestly, that's such a good answer because that is, like, diabolical. And.

[A]

And, like, you know, when they're, like, extra dirty and then it's actual swamp water, like, that Martina.

[B]

And then there are, like.

[A]

No swampy.

[B]

And that there are like.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And then the, like, blue cheese is weirdly floating around in there in a way that's like, squeaky. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

It's like actual pond water. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, I feel like Lux Bar can hook you up.

[B]

Honestly. Amen.

[A]

Sorry. I had the worst martini I've ever had in my life there.

[B]

Okay. You know where else I've had a terrible martini is RPM. I'm like, are you kidding me? This is like $35. Ye. I've had in my whole life. I sent it back. I've never sent back a drink in my life.

[A]

Oh, my God. Well, that's when you know. That's when you know. That's when you know. I have actual questions written down. But I also have a question. I want to talk about this hotel you're working on.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God. Tell me everything that you can because I'm so excited about it. Okay. What a dream project.

[B]

No, truly a dream project. I'm working on a boutique in Ouray, Colorado, which is just a couple towns over from Telluride. So it's a really beautiful part of the state.

[A]

I mean, the, like, photos you posted were stunning.

[B]

I mean, it's insane. It was built in 1900 by a woman, by the way, and she was the first property owner in Ouray. Her name is Kitty. We are going to find ways to honor her throughout the hotel, but. What a badass bitch. But it's insane. It has like all the original millwork and the original wallpaper.

[A]

I mean, stunning.

[B]

And so it's like, it's kind of granny, Granny dusty right now. Like, she's beautiful, but she needs to be brought. Yeah. So our vibe is punk rock grandma. Like making the vibe like vintage but cool. And I am freaking out.

[A]

That's gonna be so fun.

[B]

So the biggest thing is like, yeah, we're keep as much as possible. Rip out all that carpet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we should be done in the spring because we're not doing like a ton of heavy lifting Renault wise. Like, we're renovating all the bathrooms, rooms, but a lot of it is. Is kind of like a lift in chip of the furniture, adding paneling and architectural details. They also just reopened their restaurant, so there are two food and beverage spaces that we're working on in the space. Oh, my God. But we should be done in the spring, so follow St. Elmo Hotel. Yeah, I think we need to do a design retreat. No, literally.

[A]

That would be so fun. Yeah. Oh, my God. Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you. I'm so excited.

[A]

Tell us how this fell in your lap or how you got the job. It may not have fallen in your lap.

[B]

Nepotism, if I'm being honest. No. My cousin's hus been bought the hotel.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I help. I did some consulting for the previous hotel they did in Colorado, and so this time I'm. I'm full in on the design. So.

[A]

Listen, nepotism never really works out in this industry. I feel so, like, take it where you got it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's incredible. Also that you're working with people who, you know, like, get it. Like, they get it, and they're like.

[B]

And they want the history to be the forefront of the hotel. And so we, like, are so aligned on the design direction and everything. So feels. Feels like it's gonna be a really cool project. Yeah.

[A]

That's when, like, magic happens.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Gosh, that's so exciting. Congratulations.

[B]

So first project out of the Midwest. She is. I was gonna say international. She's national.

[A]

No. But that's really so major. Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you. I'm so excited.

[A]

Oh, my God. I'm so excited too. We hit on this a little bit earlier, but I'm wondering if there's another concrete piece you have. What advice would you give to someone looking to make a career switch into interior design?

[B]

Just do it. Don't wait. Don't overthink it. I wish I would have done it sooner. I. I'm. I'm happy with the path that I'm on, but I truly. I knew that I wanted to do this so long ago, and I'm like, I wasted so much time being unhappy in corporate America. So just do it. Whether that means going for it by yourself, working for somebody else, there are so many ways to eke it out. Like, there are also people who are like, if you want to be an interior design influencer, that's also a path.

[A]

Like, it doesn't have to be, like.

[B]

Boots on the ground. Interior designer. I think there's so many ways to get into the design industry that you should just do it.

[A]

I completely agree. And I also think if you're seeing what interior design is on social media and you think you want to be an interior designer, I do recommend at least doing, like, an internship.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just to see and not taking a free project.

[B]

Like, just understand what you're getting into before you do a project relative.

[A]

Do a project for yourself. Even, like, do a ren. You know, do something that has, like, concrete things that can go wrong. Yes.

[B]

Cause things are gonna go wrong. And that's the thing, is don't let the mistake stop you. I am a recovering perfectionist, and I swear, every time I made a mistake, I was like, well, I have to fire myself. I wasn't, like, meant to be an interior designer. Like, I'm not cut out for this. Don't let that stop you. You're gonna make mistakes.

[A]

It's true. I mean, I. When I first started, if I made a mistake, it was, like, catastrophic. No.

[B]

I was like, I shouldn't be in this and the rest myself.

[A]

I can't do this. Like, why. Why did I think I could do this? And now it's like, mistakes happen every day, and you roll with it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And that's the difference. Like, the mistakes are not what makes a good designer or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's how you respond to them.

[B]

It's how you handle it.

[A]

Yeah. I think that also, I get lots of people being like, can I come shadow you? Can I come shadow you? That's, as a business owner, a difficult thing to agree to, because I think even if someone's shadowing you, like, from experience, you feel like you need to give them, like. Or I felt like I needed to give them concrete, valuable information. And it's nearly impossible to do that while managing a full team while running a business also.

[B]

It's like, unless they shadowed you from, like, three straight weeks, you're not even gonna see everything that goes into it. And that's not, like. That's just not gonna work for anybody. But there's just. There's so many hats we wear. But we're wearing different hats at different times at different locations, depending on the project and the day and depending on the designer.

[A]

Some designers only do, you know, furniture and window treatments and all of that. And, like, that is also a completely fine path. Yeah. If you're interested in interiors but you don't feel ready for construction, don't do it. Right.

[B]

Go. Or go work with the show. Go work in a showroom, because you're gonna see so many of the ins and outs of, like.

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

And work with interior designers.

[A]

I mean, my first job that wasn't for someone that was related to me was a $5,000 budget.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. For a while.

[A]

And it was literally to do a living room.

[B]

Yeah. You're like, okay, my. A couch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

So I really do think that starting incredibly small. Yes. And work. Cause there were kinks on that little, tiny project, and I learned so much about how to make My clients happy and to ultimately, like, finish the job without the fun, you know, all of that, that is still valuable today, like, in my business, I think, to your point. Start.

[B]

Yeah, just start.

[A]

Just start on something. But try not to bite off more than you can chew, because I think that's when it can feel like I'm not equipped. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, it can feel a little too overwhelming. Yeah.

[B]

And you're gonna have that, but you're gonna have that moment. And you also need to know that you can, like, just move past it.

[A]

Absolutely. I just think I see very young designers jumping into construction immediately.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, in hindsight, I did the same, but same here.

[B]

And I made so many mistakes.

[A]

Well. And I had worked for other designers, so I at least knew, like, some. But also. Yeah. If you jump right into construction and it's fine, it just means that, like, you need the capital to be able to make up for the mistakes that you are inevitably going to make in the beginning. And it's just more affordable to make mistakes on. Just like a furniture job. Yep.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

Start small.

[B]

Let's, like, recommend some pain and some furniture before we get into rental. Yes.

[A]

And making sure that you like the client facing aspect of it. I feel like that. And like the customer service piece is the. Is the piece that people don't always.

[B]

Well, because I think what's, like, so unique about our jobs is it's so left brain and right brain. It is not one or the other. It is like you're using both at.

[A]

All at the same time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're like, my brain doesn't really like to do that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you could give one piece of advice to aspiring interior designers about staying true to their vision, what would it be?

[B]

Find inspiration outside of the Internet. Yeah.

[A]

I think that's really hard.

[B]

I think it's so hard. I find myself getting, like, caught up in, like, what other designers are doing and all of that too. But I think if you can buy old design books, old magazines, or even just, I don't know, go on house tours, whatever you can do, Just be true to whatever you like, not what everybody else is doing.

[A]

I also think for me, and travel obviously comes with a lift, but it is the number one thing that plugs me back into feeling like I have my own sense of style and my own sense of interiors. I think I'm the same way. If I've been on the Internet for a little bit too long, even if I've seen lots of beautiful stuff. It doesn't inspire me. It puts me in a rock. What?

[B]

No, same here. It's just like, I think it's like also taking time to take a break so that your creativity can come back online. I don't know about you, but I feel like sometimes I burn myself out and then like I don't feel like I'm producing.

[A]

Actually my brain has nothing left.

[B]

Like, though, yeah, like the creative work that I want to. And it's because I'm over consuming on the Internet. I'm working myself too hard. And I'm not like spending the time to touch grass.

[A]

As like simple as that is quite literally to touch grass.

[B]

Like I need to touch grass after this.

[A]

I keep telling my team I'm like Michigan. Cause I could just like walk on grass all the time. I know, but it's true. I really do think it sounds so, like lame. It's spending time in nature, spending time in other cultures, around other people, around older environments. For me, like traveling to places that are older than the United States. Cause we're so.

[B]

Which is everywhere, but literally everywhere.

[A]

I think it really like I can think of so many rooms that work sparked by a very TV room. Morocco.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean that was so fun. And my client just immediately jumped on board and like still one of my favorite rooms I've ever done. And it.

[B]

That picture of you in there is so cute and like, you could tell you love the room.

[A]

I. Yeah, it's my favorite room I've ever done up to now at least. So yeah, I do think that again, I know that it's like sort of a privileged position to be in of like go travel, go international travel. But I. It's one of my priorities. It's one of the things that we talk all the time in the office about push presents. Because I tend to give myself a gift when we complete a project.

[B]

I love it because it's like two years long.

[A]

It's longer than growing a gift.

[B]

I just got myself my first milestone gift too. I was like, oh, I'm one year full time in business. I deserve a necklace.

[A]

Absolutely. Mine's always jewelry because I feel like it. Like, no, same.

[B]

I went to go pick up my wedding ring and then I was like, oh, I also would like this.

[A]

As you should, by the way. Can't wait to see the wedding ring. That's so exciting.

[B]

I'll show you.

[A]

Oh my God. Yay. I can't wait. I can't, I can't wait. I can't wait. I Can't wait. Well, before we wrap up, what are some things that made you feel recently.

[B]

Besides rage, despair, and just general disassociation from the world. I'm really excited that Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is back because I need to dissociate. And that is my favorite franchise. I didn't finish watching. I fell asleep last night because I was going, oh, we have to talk about it.

[A]

But honestly, the first episode was good. Not great. The actors are taking it along.

[B]

No, no, no. It's too far. They're making a little clear wit.

[A]

And I was like, what's happening?

[B]

Also, like, Angie, why are you taking them to the woods? Mary Cosby is forever my favorite.

[A]

Mary Cosby is so funny.

[B]

The fact that she was a, like, an icon.

[A]

She was a co host of this trip and was like, I didn't know we were coming here. This sucks.

[B]

I'm obsessed with her.

[A]

That's so me. That's so me.

[B]

The other thing that made me feel is I am. I'm going back to my Warped Tour roots, and I'm going to Riot Fest tonight to see Blink182.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And I'm so.

[A]

Okay, so confession. Blink182's first date literally was my first date anthem. Whenever I would go on a date night.

[B]

And I love that.

[A]

Like, I'm ancient, but I would be, like, on a very first date. Like, I would actually lose my mind in my room, and it was like my little ritual.

[B]

No, I love.

[A]

I remember watching the Hills.

[B]

I'll record it for you tonight, please. Oh, my God. The Hills had the best, like, that kind of soundtrack that.

[A]

And they, like, don't know what that.

[B]

Is, which is wild. You should watch it. It's still great tv. I did rewatch it recently.

[A]

No, it really holds up. It really holds up. You need something to watch. The Hills. Laguna Beach. The Hills and then the City.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's iconic tv. No. So good. Truly iconic. Like the fact that we had Olivia Palermo on our TVs in that era also.

[B]

She was framed as the bitch.

[A]

She was framed.

[B]

And then she had the villain arc.

[A]

Do you remember Emily who founded Glossier?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She was on the Hills and she was like the vog that everyone hated. Like the culture that came from.

[B]

I mean, Kristen Cavallari. Are you kidding?

[A]

And still a chaotic figure. No, truly.

[B]

I mean, question marks on what's going on there. But honestly, that was like, peak reality TV for me.

[A]

If you need something to make you feel and to disassociate, get into that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because, wow.

[B]

If you don't want to do reality tv, the OC Also a great rewatch up until, obviously, you know, mercenaries.

[A]

Honestly, the OC Is so funny because it's so meta with Laguna Beach. Do you remember when they would watch the O.C. no.

[B]

I know.

[A]

On Laguna Beach.

[B]

I know.

[A]

They would be like, that's us. That's us. It's like four layers.

[B]

I know, I know. And I'm like, I was in there. I was in it.

[A]

I was in it.

[B]

I'm still in it.

[A]

So in it. Oh, my God. Wow. That really brought me back. Thanks for that.

[B]

Yeah, you are. So everybody, let us know your favorite episode of Also.

[A]

I didn't even mention I also was a warped chore girl.

[B]

Oh, my God. Stop.

[A]

Fully went in Orlando and I. This was the era of having the band sign your Converses.

[B]

Yep. Obviously.

[A]

So I had white high top Converses, had all the bands, signed them, brought them home, my mom washed them.

[B]

And you're like, I hate you.

[A]

It was that Disney Channel moment where you're like, I'm never speaking to you again.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Motion to bring back Disney Channel. Like, there were music video breaks, there were dance breaks.

[A]

Oh, my God. The content that we got was tricky.

[B]

Really what we need. I do hear, I've been hearing inklings that there's gonna be some kind of Lizzie McGuire reboot. And I am, like, losing my shit. Like, Truly, she inspired my first bedroom where I designed the wallpaper.

[A]

She is everything.

[B]

No, everything.

[A]

Lizzie McGuire was my shit. I was just talking to still.

[B]

So Pearls of dunning.

[A]

The Lizzie McGuire movie when they're in Rome and she's like, literally in the eighth grade on the back of a moped with some man. Honestly, I need to do a Halloween costume and do, like, Isabella and Lizzie. Oh, my God. Okay, wait.

[B]

That would be a great Halloween. I'm like, that her. Yes. When she's in, like, the green.

[A]

Isabella in the green and her in, like, the blue dress that pops off.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Wow. Okay. We have so much to talk about after we get off mic. Sorry, everybody. Okay, well, lastly, where can we find you?

[B]

Find me on Instagram. I am starting to Maybe post on TikTok, but both@abigail morris.interiors and her content is amazing.

[A]

So everybody check it out. Thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

It's so fun. I could literally up for five more hours. No, Truly, this was the best.

[B]

Like, we're not working the rest of the day. It's Friday?

[A]

No, no, it's Friday. Great. Thanks, everybody. Until next week. Peace be with you.

[B]

Bye. Bye.