I confess… my contractor is sabotaging me

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer: Episode Summary - "I Confess… My Contractor is Sabotaging Me"

Release Date: February 5, 2025

In this compelling episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner delves deep into the tumultuous experiences that often lurk behind the pristine veneer of the luxury interior design industry. Joined by special guest Dee Thompson, owner and Chief Construction Officer of Urbane Home, the conversation navigates through the challenges of managing high-end projects, vetting both clients and contractors, and maintaining professionalism amidst chaos.

---

Guest Introduction and Background

[00:04] Caroline Turner (A):
"Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins."

Caroline introduces Dee Thompson, highlighting her role at Urbane Home—a women-owned and led construction and design firm. Dee is portrayed as an "extreme multitasker, planner, and perfectionist," traits instrumental to her decade-long success in the industry.

[00:56] Dee Thompson (B):
"So I spent over two decades as an IT consultant, working for Fortune 100 companies, managing major implementation systems. Later, I transitioned to the non-profit sector, aiding organizations like the MacArthur Foundation in installing grants management applications."

Dee's background in IT project management showcases the transferable skills that have aided her in the construction and design realm, emphasizing the similarity in project management disciplines across industries.

---

Transition from IT to Interior Design

[02:18] B:
"At some point, I decided to have a child, and my husband encouraged me to pursue my passion for design. We put an offer on a building, and that leap of faith led to the foundation of Urbane Home."

Caroline humorously lauds her husband’s supportive role, calling him "the constant cheerleader" who bolstered her transition from a stable IT career to the unpredictable world of interior design.

[03:07] A:
"For someone who's Type A, seeing this as a huge success is incredible. Many new businesses operate in the red for years, but my husband sees this as a success."

---

Managing Client Expectations and Vetting Processes

A significant portion of the episode centers on the importance of vetting clients to ensure a harmonious working relationship. Dee introduces the concept of pre-selecting clients through structured interviews, a tactic borrowed from her IT background.

[07:34] B:
"She structures a pre-selection interview using our website's project images and surveys clients on their preferences, decision-making styles, and expectations. This helps us determine if we're a good fit."

Caroline and Dee discuss the pitfalls of poor client relationships, emphasizing the necessity of setting clear expectations to avoid prolonged projects plagued by indecision and unrealistic demands.

[09:41] A:
"People can shift in the middle of a process, and it's like, wait, hold on. This is not the person I met in the beginning."

They highlight strategies to manage such shifts, including presenting clients with their own survey results to reinforce compatibility or respectfully declining the partnership if misalignments arise.

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Time Management and Scheduling

Both hosts underscore the critical role of scheduling in maintaining project timelines and client satisfaction.

[15:00] B:
"Have the team members shadow me from the very start of the project. They need to experience the entire process to understand the complexities involved."

Delving into the logistical aspects, Dee shares her approach to enforcing schedules and deadlines, even employing multiple trades to foster healthy competition among contractors.

[16:48] B:
"I have multiple trades come in, and it keeps the work progressing faster because they see the competition."

---

Handling Criticism and Rejection

Caroline discusses her experiences with receiving harsh feedback from teenage clients, reflecting on the resilience required to thrive in the industry.

[23:44] A:
"I felt like I didn't make the best first impression. During the presentation, the teen client outright dismissed all selections, leaving me feeling deflated."

Dee advises on cultivating thick skin and viewing such criticisms as opportunities for growth rather than personal affronts.

[31:09] B:
"Building thick skin is crucial. Do a deep dive of lessons learned at the end of the day."

They stress the importance of not taking rejections personally and understanding that differing aesthetics do not equate to incompetence.

---

Dealing with Sabotaging Contractors

The heart of the episode revolves around Caroline’s confession about a contractor undermining her project and reputation.

[34:13] A:
"Confession number two. I found a contractor who initially seemed great but started nitpicking my design choices and questioning my authority on site."

Dee empathizes, sharing similar experiences, and offers practical solutions:

[44:08] B:
"I would absolutely go to the client and show accountability. Apologize professionally and address the issue directly with the contractor."

[44:21] B:
"Talk about the rules of engagement. You do not speak about me. If you have an issue, we can speak offline."

Caroline recounts the contractor’s escalating behavior, including public outbursts and bypassing her to communicate directly with the client, ultimately jeopardizing the project's success.

[39:08] A:
"One day the contractor yelled at me in front of the crew, undermining my role and making me seem incompetent."

Dee advises initiating transparent communication with both the client and the contractor to address and rectify such conflicts promptly.

---

Insights and Conclusions

The episode wraps up with valuable lessons and advice for listeners navigating similar challenges in the design-build industry.

Vetting Contractors:

• [47:18] B:
  "Ask how long they've been in business and if they know your existing subcontractors. Synergy among the team can prevent conflicts."

Encouraging Women in Construction:

• [49:40] B:
  "Mentorship is key. Women should seek out mentors and be assertive in reaching out to firms accepting interns or apprentices."

Attention to Detail:

• [52:15] B:
  "Attention to small details sets women's work apart in the industry. It enhances the overall quality and client satisfaction."

---

Notable Quotes

• Dee Thompson (07:34):
  "She structures a pre-selection interview using our website's project images and surveys clients on their preferences, decision-making styles, and expectations."

• Caroline Turner (23:44):
  "I felt like I didn't make the best first impression. During the presentation, the teen client outright dismissed all selections, leaving me feeling deflated."

• Dee Thompson (44:08):
  "I would absolutely go to the client and show accountability. Apologize professionally and address the issue directly with the contractor."

• Caroline Turner (34:13):
  "Confession number two. I found a contractor who initially seemed great but started nitpicking my design choices and questioning my authority on site."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a candid look into the less glamorous aspects of luxury interior design, shedding light on the intricate dance between designers, clients, and contractors. Caroline and Dee emphasize the importance of strategic client and contractor vetting, effective communication, and maintaining professionalism under pressure. Their shared experiences and practical advice provide invaluable insights for both industry insiders and enthusiasts eager to understand the real-world dynamics of high-end design projects.

Whether you're grappling with difficult clients, managing contractor relationships, or striving to foster a more inclusive environment within the construction industry, this episode serves as a beacon of wisdom and solidarity. Tune in to gain a deeper appreciation of the challenges and triumphs that define the journey of an interior designer navigating the complexities of the luxury market.

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Ready to hear more confessions from the design world? Subscribe to Confessions of an Interior Designer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred platform. Share your own experiences and join the conversation on Instagram, TikTok, and our Facebook Group.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi everyone. I'm so excited to introduce Dee Thompson, the owner and chief construction officer of Urbane Home, a thriving women owned and women led construction and design company. Dee is a self proclaimed extreme multitasker, planner and perfectionist. Traits that have undoubtedly played a key role in her success. Thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

I'm so excited to talk to you. This is going to be amazing. Okay, before I get ahead of myself, because I originally was like, I have so many questions. Oh my God, we'll get there. Tell us how you got here, how you're sitting in this seat and your journey.

[B]

Yeah, so my journey is very interesting for the space outside of being a woman, which is clearly very odd and interesting about being in a design build firm. So I spent over two decades in as an IT consultant, so I was working for a lot of the Fortune 100 companies.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Installing, you know, or helping manage major implementation systems. Later in my career I moved to the non for profit space. So my Last client was MacArthur foundation and I helped them install their grants management application there. So I was project manager leading that effort for MacArthur. Wow.

[A]

Well, in that had to have taught you a lot. Project managing in a different way, but still the same skills needed so much. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating.

[B]

So having gone through the IT side learning how to manage multibillion dollar company initiatives, it really isn't an easy dive in to construction because most of the project management discipline is very similar. Whether you're dealing with IT or you're dealing with construction, the phases of a project are very similar. So I manage my now career very much like I manage my IT career.

[A]

Fascinating.

[B]

So to rewind a little bit how I got here is, you know, I always had a passion for design and building. I would do things like that for myself. I would build our homes and renovate our homes. A lot of our friends and family started asking if I would, you know, help them and like, well I, you know, got this like full time IT career.

[A]

Yeah, you know, a lot going on.

[B]

Right, a lot going on. But whatever, let me try to help you on the side. And at some point, you know, I decided to have a child and my very lovely husband is like d, this is your passion. Just try it. Why don't you go Out. I have put an offer in a building. If you get it, that is karma telling you to at least pursue that, that route. We put an offer on a building, we got the building, and here I am.

[A]

Husband of the year. I always say, really amazing.

[B]

It's quite annoying. Everyone likes him. He's brilliant.

[A]

But also, he must love you so much to give you that vote of confidence of, like, I know you can do this, even. I mean, you had a proven record doing it yourself, but, I mean, that's a risk to buy a building and hope that you can do it. But you did. I mean, that is. It's a little bit sink or swim, which is sometimes when you can prove to yourself that you can do it the most.

[B]

And what's interesting about that first experience, it's not as if I knocked it out of the park financially, like, I made a million dollars. It was nothing like that. I think that first project, I broke even.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you'll be lucky to bring.

[A]

I mean, honestly, that's great for your first project.

[B]

For me, the Type A, I'm. This is a huge failure. And my husband's like, this is a huge success. You know how many new businesses are in the red for years? And he's like, this is a huge success. So he's the constant cheerleader. He really is the one that's responsible for pushing me, you know, forward to get to work.

[A]

May we all be so lucky with our partners to get that support. That's really, really lovely, but still annoying. I was gonna say I hate giving credit to a man.

[B]

I will say he's really, really lovely.

[A]

Maybe it's partially because he's not fully American. Like, I feel like maybe that is fully American, but he has some Italian, you know, some Italian roots that I think might make him more of a.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, I mean, when we go to Italy, I'm like, these men, you know, put a ring on my finger, I'll move to Italy, no questions asked.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

I love that. That is.

[B]

He embodies that culture.

[A]

Fascinating. I mean, genuinely. Okay, so you've been running the company urbain home for 10 years.

[B]

For 10 years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That is such an accomplishment.

[B]

10 years. Yes.

[A]

Right. We've it five and a half, and it has flown by. It feels like I've blinked and we got here. It's wild.

[B]

I'm 52, and I feel like I'm 85.

[A]

You look 40. So I was about to say there is no way. I would never have guessed, by the way.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I'm not just saying that because we're on microphones. We'll talk about that later when you leave. Like, holy shit. What's her skin.

[B]

Oh. Now, wash your face with cold water. My grandmother always told me they have cold water every night, so. Keeps your skin tight, apparently.

[A]

I mean, that's what I. Does make sense, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Shrinks your pores. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to start doing that. Thanks, Grandma.

[B]

Lovely, too, though. You don't need to at this.

[A]

I spend way too much money on my skin, so this is not effortless by any means.

[B]

It's a thing. I get it.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I love that story. Before we get into confessions, I did want to chat about a couple of things to give some context. We met in Italy, which was fabulous. Kalia Stone, which is a local stone company in Chicago, invited us. We got to go to the quarries and see how all the marble got removed. And it was. I think all of us just left, like, in awe.

[C]

Truly incredible. The most incredible trip I've ever.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

And again, we do need to do this again.

[A]

Yes. Hear that. But genuinely, it was. Yeah. A trip of a lifetime. And it's amazing because we got to be with other designers and other companies and also learn about each other's businesses while learning something that can all help us sell more in our business. Agreed. We talk all the time internally about a conversation you and I had when we were there. You have someone who works for you, who helps you sift through, who to take on as a client and who to not. And I feel like this is a pain point we talk about all the time, because a good client or a bad, I mean, it can make or break the experience.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Talk to me a little bit about what made you take that step. How has it changed your business? And. Yeah, I'd love to know more.

[B]

Yeah. So I will take a page out of my previous IT career because the change management discipline, which is really what it is, is a major component of most IT projects. The change management consultant and those projects sits down with all the key stakeholders, understands what you view as success, what you view as failure, and then rolls it back to me, IT project manager, to figure out how I deal with all the stakeholders and how I. Fascinating success, you know, based on what everyone needs. And so having gone through a couple of these projects where I'm just banging my head against a wall, like, why? Like, I've tried so hard. We delivered everything to.

[A]

We killed ourselves to do this.

[B]

Killed ourselves, broke our backs above and beyond, like, Everything. And this client still, it's still not good enough. You know, it's like, what can I do? And then I happened to be, my father in law, lives out in Scottsdale and I was out there for Thanksgiving. My friend who I was hiking with, she was talking, she's this change management consultant. She mentioned that she's working with a designer. And I'm like, do tell. What do you mean you're working with a designer? Like this. I understand it in it, but what do you mean? And she introduced this concept of basically, you know, pre interviewing clients.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they don't necessarily feel like it's a psychological interview.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But it kind of is.

[A]

You know, they're not on a shrink couch, but it's telling you what you need to do.

[B]

But often the clients do say, oh my God, I feel like that was a therapy session. But she basically structures a pre selection interview, if you will. She'll go to our website, pick different projects that we've done, different images, and she will basically serve up the interview, the survey to the clients. Tell us what you like out of all of these pictures. Tell us how you make decisions. Are you a solo decision maker? Do you need multiple points of input to make decisions? Are you a quick decision maker? You know, and so she goes through all of these questions. At the end she summarizes them, gets them on a call to review the results with the clients. And ultimately she has an open discussion like, you know, this is a two way street.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

We want you to be happy, but we also want to have a positive experience as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And so it's all about making sure that we're a good fit for one another. It's not just you, but, you know, this is how urbane homework.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're very structured being women, we follow methodology. We don't veer from that. Like we document everything like a million times. Some people don't like. And we also are affirmed that like we don't give endless decisions or options. We give people three options generally. And sometimes people are like, oh, I want to see more than. No, no, focus on these three. If they're, if you don't like all three, we'll give you three more. But we're not going to give you.

[C]

We'Re not going to overload you.

[B]

Right. A list of 20 things to review.

[A]

Because then that's the decision fatigue gets insane.

[B]

It's crazy. And that's where these projects turn into a year and you're still talking about.

[A]

No decisions have been made, nothing has Been made, so.

[B]

Exactly. So seeing PA out, this process has been instrumental. And I will say there's been a couple of clients where she has, you know, said, I just don't think it's a good fit. This is how urbane home works. This is how they decision. You, I think, are going to be very frustrated because you need your 10 family members to help, like, chime in on decisions. You need to touch and feel every little thing. And you don't actually have a lot of trust in your design partner because you want to. It's just not a good fit, you know, and so we've made those decisions.

[A]

It's genius. It really is.

[B]

It's been so helpful. And also, sadly, I think on one or two projects, we've had to kind of cut the cord because we've gotten a couple of clients hired who seem to fit the bill, but then get in the middle of the process and they're veering off.

[A]

People can shift in the middle of a process, in the process. And you're like, wait, hold on. This is not the person I met in the beginning.

[B]

Right, exactly. But it's easy because we present them back with their own results in your own hands.

[A]

Okay, remember, you said this.

[B]

You said this. Your wife is the decision maker. You said this. And now I'm getting messages from you. And now you want your parents to roll in. We don't do that. So, you know, we've had to say thank you, but no thank you. You know, here's your deposit.

[A]

Well, it also wants everyone to be. It's like a formula. So it's not emotional, it's not personal.

[B]

It's not personal.

[A]

It's just this is how we work. And we don't think you're gonna work well with us, period.

[B]

Period.

[A]

Because people will. If you turn them down, they will try to convince you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's almost. I mean, it's a little bit like dating. Like, the more that you're like, I don't want you, they're like, please, please wait a year. We'll do anything you ask.

[B]

Right. You're right.

[A]

Crazy. And even those clients, they're still a year later, are not good clients.

[B]

Like, it's not worth waiting and nothing's changed. No, we don't even have clients really, that are go over a year because.

[A]

Yeah, we don't either.

[B]

For our build, our design, to build, to build a new house for our firm, ground up is like 10 months.

[A]

I mean, that's genuinely insane.

[B]

Maximum.

[A]

To build a brand new home. Like, we're not exceeding a year on renovation, furniture, all of that. If it's a new build, obviously we have less control over the timeline. But if I've ever heard a selling point from a contractor ever, it's that because people, you know, you go into the home building process, friends have told you all the horror stories about double your timeline, double your budget, it's going to be horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the bottom line is, if find the right person and spend a little bit more in fees, you will be on budget and on time and get what you want.

[B]

Absolutely, 100%.

[A]

And so to go in the process and be like, we know that you're gonna let us down from the very beginning is a crazy way. It really is to go into it.

[B]

I mean, one of our questions that we consistently ask to your point is, do you watch hgtv?

[A]

Yep. That's a great question.

[B]

If you do erase everything that you heard.

[A]

It's not real. Stop it.

[B]

It's not real. So I know they did this whole bathroom in, like, two days. That's really not. Not possible. It's not possible. So you may not be our client if you believe your expectations. Yes.

[C]

Lower than that.

[B]

We're going to miss the mark. We're going to miss the mark.

[A]

So, yes, I think that is a brilliant question. I just had Shannon Claire on the podcast from D.C. and she was just talking on her Instagram about how the bottom line is some clients shouldn't work with interior designers a thousand percent. They are too controlling. They want what they want. They want to pick things out.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They basically just want an.

[A]

Just don't hire someone.

[B]

Hire.

[A]

We're not forcing you to hire us. You're coming to us. Right. So just don't. That's the piece that I feel like we're. We're in. I mean, we're all for client collaboration.

[B]

Of course. Yeah.

[A]

But when it comes to. They're picking things out, they're doing our job, it's like, why are we here? There's other clients who would be letting us do our full job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So why. This feels like you're paying us for nothing. And then they feel like they didn't get enough out of it. And you're like, yeah, right.

[B]

You want my trade discount.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You want it. Assistant to order, and you want my trade discount. That's the bottom line. And unfortunately, that's not what we're doing here. That's not what we're doing here. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, I find that so fascinating.

[B]

She's been Instrumental. She really has.

[A]

I mean it is genius. And I feel like I get in, I get emails and DMS and stuff all the time about how can I get in the industry. I'm previously in logistics. Like I don't. That job I feel like is. And I mean obviously there's skills that they need to know. Like you need to have a background in psych and you need to understand people and all of that. But I think there are so many more jobs in this industry than people even know, even know. And you can make a job for yourself.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I mean that is not something I had ever heard of before but you make yourself indispensable by doing it.

[B]

I completely agree. I mean three, if I think off the top of my head, three of my colleagues, two were bartenders and I'm not like saying that in a way like bartenders. Two were bartenders, one was a nanny. Super intelligent, super, you know, scholastic people but just hadn't found their thing. And you know, one was bartending, going back to school and trying to figure out like if she wanted to go into teaching. But the bottom line, like I told them, I'm like, I'm willing to take a chance because you're really organized, you're really smart. I like your design eye and I think half the time even it or design construction related. I think half the time for me, the people that are over educated, if you know what I mean. Like I've got a degree in this and I've got a degree in. Those are usually the people that don't succeed. In my experience it's the raw, authentic.

[A]

You know, it's a startup environment. So I feel like you have to be hungry, you have to be willing to do things that are not in your job description.

[B]

For sure.

[C]

You're gonna wear a lot of hats.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Which wear lots of hats.

[A]

I love that. So do they. I feel like it's fun because we get to do all different things. But I agree with you. We've had the experience of coming from corporate and that just doesn't work because they're in a completely different mind space and that's totally fine. But I think if you're scrappy and willing to just look around and see what needs to be done.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

They'll make you indispensable. I agree.

[B]

Really does I agree on the corporate side. It's interesting that you say that because I do. There's so many corporate elements that I apply in my job site and my guys look at me like lady, what is this? Like Project schedule. Like, what am I looking at? They're, like, so confused. But I'm like, once they get into it, they start to rely on it. They walk in, they see the schedule on the wall with the marker. They can check off their tasks. They get into it.

[C]

You know, they don't know they need it. Into it.

[A]

Yeah, they don't know what they need.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So there are those little elements like, that I think have, like, served me and some of my colleagues well from corporate for sure. And has, I think, helped some of my trades. Is like, oh, never thought.

[A]

I'm constantly begging our contractors for a schedule like that is a constant. And I understand you don't want to get, like, tied into this very specific timeline. But, like, we all work in construction. We know how things happen. But I at least need a general. General calendar, and that's something that I. We're working on a commercial job. They've been really great about that. But residential, it just seems that it's. It's not taken as seriously. Like, it doesn't matter because it's not a business. They're not losing money by not being open.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so the schedule just gives other contractors plausible deniability. Like, they never promised anything, so they're not under delivering.

[B]

Well, you know how I fixed that? I have multiple trades come in. So a couple of projects where it's like, that's fine. You can't give me your timeline. Great. So they'll show up. There's another Tyler working, and they're like, what? Yeah. And then somehow, you know, the work is getting done much faster because they see the competition.

[A]

It's like, yeah, there's other people. You don't get to play like this.

[B]

And I. I value loyalty. I'm very loyal to my. My trades, but also, I expect the same in return.

[C]

Of course.

[B]

And I don't have one trade for everything. I have multiple trades.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, that's also what makes a good contract.

[B]

Yeah. You know.

[A]

You know, that's the. The key. I mean, I could sit here for literally hours and be like, here's what you do. Here's what everyone else does, and this is why there's such a chasm.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

My last question for you before we move to. Well, before we move to Vice is you really work in one main area of the city, Right.

[B]

Or is that location wise? Is that what you mean? Yeah, downtown, I definitely don't.

[A]

You're not working in the suburbs or anything.

[B]

I do get those requests, but we have so many Requests for downtown work. I live in Old Town.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So I've. I think I told you this, that I built or renovated 16 houses on my street.

[A]

Yeah. It's insane. Incredible.

[B]

It's crazy. Just. And that was like. Or organically, like, neighbors moving. Hey, Dee, we see what you're doing. Do you wanna buy my house? Sort of thing. So I've kind of gotten an early bid on those properties. And so a lot of people know me in Old Town and Lincoln park, and I've done some Gold Coast, Wicker park and West Loop.

[A]

The reason I bring it up is because it shows how incredible you are that you wouldn't need to work anywhere else or not. Wouldn't need to. You can't, because you don't have, like. You have too much work in the city. And that is.

[C]

It's really, really incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I should be very proud. Thank you. I think the other tough thing with that is it's like, well, do I want to grow my business? Because. Sure. I've gotten a lot of those requests, too. Like, well, why don't you partner? I can partner with you in the suburbs. I can partner with you in Hinsdale or, you know, Kenilworth or what. What have you. And this might be me being too, type A. If I take on a project. I only take on a project if I can actually be committed to being on the project.

[A]

That's how we are. That's how we are, too.

[B]

I only have limited bandwidth. I did finally hire one foreman. He's, like, the only man we'll let him slide in.

[A]

Yeah, he slipped in there.

[B]

And honestly, he was like my rough carpenter who started getting out of the business. He's an Irish rough carpenter of mine, and he's like, I'm done. I just can't do this. And so I'm like, I know everyone knows you on my job site. Everyone respects you. You're a man. That's your only, like, downfall.

[A]

However, we won't hold it against you for this.

[B]

Yeah. And so I have found a little balance with being able to take on a couple other projects that I might not have other, you know, otherwise taken on.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But that's kind of.

[A]

It's a giving thing, limiting my growth, if you will.

[B]

And I'm okay with that because I want to take on the right projects. They're usually bigger projects, and that makes more sense for me, for both.

[A]

Well, and I mean, to do 16 homes on a street means that each person had an incredible experience. Yeah.

[B]

I would say I would say maybe one didn't.

[A]

Well, maybe one out of 16 is pretty good. I think just with those sheer numbers. Numbers. You're gonna get one that didn't no matter what. Like, there's nothing you can do about it all day.

[B]

Whose fault it was.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We can go point by point, Babe and I. We'll see who's right, of course. But it is really. I mean, genuinely. It's a testament, so. And I find it. Yeah. Very inspiring.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome. Welcome, welcome. Before we get to confessions, what's a vice you partake in? You told me you don't drink caffeine.

[B]

Unless I'm in Europe.

[A]

Unless it's a real cappuccino.

[B]

A real cappuccino. My real vice. And everyone that knows me well will know this. I am a college football junkie.

[A]

Oh, my God. I do, too.

[B]

I know more about most college football sports than my husband, than most men. And my team is Ohio State. You won the national championship.

[A]

You are so iconic.

[C]

You really are.

[A]

Men should fear you. Like, I am obsessed.

[B]

So I know, like, when I first met my husband and we met in the summer, heading into the fall, and I remember it was like, a Saturday. And again, my advice, college football Saturday. I'm somewhere with televisions on outside watching the games. I love it. Whatever. And I was like, so, where are we going? Like, what bar are we going to? And he's like, I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Like, I've got a boat. I'm going sailing. I'm like, well, college football.

[A]

Is there a TV on the boat? Sailing.

[B]

Is there a TV on this boat? I don't know.

[A]

Is there a TV on this boat? You can tell she's also in the. College football. Yeah.

[B]

So when we got married, to this point, I put a TV on the.

[C]

Boat because I'm like.

[B]

The only way I can be on this boat on the fall is if there's a TV on this boat.

[A]

I'm obsessed. Exactly. Incredible.

[B]

That is my big buddy.

[A]

What a good answer. I've not heard that before, though.

[C]

That's amazing.

[B]

When you grow up in Columbus, Ohio, it is like.

[A]

I love it. I mean, we went to an SEC school, so we.

[B]

Where'd you go?

[A]

Auburn.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And my freshman year, we went to the national championship.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which was crazy. I mean, so fresh. Crazy. Yeah.

[C]

We're a basketball team now.

[A]

Yeah. Football's not really.

[C]

We're not really talking about football.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Basketball, though.

[A]

We're.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Don't drop off the podcast. I Know this podcast.

[B]

Roll back. Roll back to us.

[C]

We're about to get into the good stuff.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Confession number one. Let's do it. Okay, so here's my confession. I'm a junior designer, and it was my first time pulling selections for a project on my own. I was sourcing items for a teen girl's bedroom, and I was so excited. I met the daughter once, but honestly, it was more of a blur. She didn't even look at me when I was there taking measurements. She was kind of aloof, and I don't blame her. I mean, she was probably on her phone or doing something way more interesting than worrying about a stranger measuring her room. Right. But also, like, manners to, like, look.

[B]

Somewhere in the eye and be like.

[A]

Hi, I'm so and so.

[B]

Yeah, basics.

[A]

Yeah. Like, at, like, 7, I was able to be like, you know, that's quatting your room.

[B]

This is a good thing. Right?

[A]

Right. Yeah. There should be some, like, mutual respect here, but I agree. But still, I couldn't help but feel like I didn't make the best first impression. Anyway, fast forward to the day we're presenting the selections to the client. My boss and I are showing her everything we picked out, and everything was going smoothly until the mom decides to FaceTime her daughter.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

She's like, let's get her input on the room. And I'm sitting there, heart racing, hoping she'll at least pretend to like something. But no. The second she saw the options, she just started saying, I hate all of this. It's so ugly. None of this fits my vibe.

[B]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[A]

Teenagers are genuinely parents. Oh, my God.

[C]

But again, parenting, like, there are some more questions here.

[A]

My parents listen to this, and they can. The way that they would have snapped me, like, they would have ended the phone and been like, you're grounded. Like, it would never have thousand persons ever have happened. I mean, I wouldn't have even entered my mind. And we've talked about this because we do have. We've had some teenage clients, and they don't like what we do. They want. Like, Miami White and I, we've talked about it. If our parents had hired a designer and was like, you get to work with this person on your room, it would have been the best moment.

[B]

Are you kidding?

[A]

Like, I wouldn't be like, that's not what I want. Because TikTok is telling me something different.

[B]

Oh, TikTok. Yeah.

[A]

Which, listen, there's a place for it I love it, but, like, we don't all need to have a home like Alex. Earl. It's just not necessary.

[B]

Yeah, that's too bad.

[A]

Yikes. Okay. She barely even glanced at anything. And I could see my boss trying to stay calm, but honestly, I wanted to crawl under the table. Here's the thing. Her mom didn't say a word.

[B]

Oh, no. Unacceptable. Unacceptable.

[A]

You've got. Well, you know how she got there? You know how she got so rude. Because if the parent's not gonna stop that behavior, what else are they letting.

[B]

This is case point where I would exit this relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Actually, we're gonna go, so. Right. Oh, my God.

[B]

Ye. Huh? Awful.

[A]

Not a peep. She didn't even try to reel her daughter in or ask her to be polite. She sat there nodding along like it was totally normal for her teen to completely trash my work. Disgusting.

[B]

That is really horrific.

[A]

Yeah. And I get it. Teens are unpredictable. But still, I mean, come on. I had worked hard in those selections. I think they're being too nice, frankly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you're really giving the teenager credit that. And frankly, it's not the teenager's fault. They have not been taught correctly how to interact in the world. Clearly. But also, you know, this is a luxury business. Your parents have to have some level of money to be able to hire a designer. So you would think they've been in experiences where, like. Like, it's not a lack of parents being there. I agree. Do you know what I mean? Like, they have the resources, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

[B]

Yeah. I guess my question, like, for you, have you ever been in a proposal presentation like that where that's happened? I guess my response is. And not blaming the designer.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. I never have because, you know, I somewhat know in advance, like, if the client likes a lot of the selection, you're kind of feeding them little bits along the way.

[A]

Like, what about.

[B]

So it wouldn't have been such a.

[A]

We've never had an adult. We've never had an adult.

[B]

Oh. But okay.

[A]

And I wouldn't say we've had a teenager be that intense, but we have had teenagers be like, you don't get it.

[C]

But they definitely share their opinion more.

[A]

Yeah. Like, they're not concerned about telling us they don't like it.

[C]

But then we've also worked with some teenagers that are just lovely and are excited about the process. Yeah.

[A]

Grace on our team is 22, turning 23.

[B]

So we've.

[A]

She started to take over, like, the teenage rooms because I'M like, you're clueless. You know what they like.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

I will say they tend to respect her opinion more. So we've. That has helped a lot. But I mean we do inspiration imagery and so we set the tone with the client and they know what to expect. But I think sometimes we're setting the tone with the client. They don't show their teen and then they show the teen the selections and they can't visualize and then it becomes like, either involve them or don't kind of thing. Like let them be involved from the very beginning and let us set the tone together.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Or just don't ask their opinion.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, she was kind of settled up for failure initially based on her lukewarm response anyway to the teens.

[A]

It seemed like she already knew the teen probably wasn't the nicest person. But I mean, I guess if someone's like 13, you do tend to give them a pass just cause the hormones that are raging through their body are so crazy.

[B]

So maybe in that situation it should have maybe been more of a piecemeal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you check with Lauren, whatever you know the teenager name is, can we.

[A]

See if we're in the right direction? Direction.

[B]

You know, maybe some more checkpoints along way before the final presentation so it wasn't so jarring.

[C]

Or we can send this to her like after, like give us her feedback.

[B]

After you give me the deposit, we'll send this to her also.

[A]

I hate to be like this because I remember being a teenager, but if you're building a brand new home and your daughter's 16, she should not be picking out the materials for that brand new home.

[B]

Theoretically, in two years.

[A]

She's going to be gone in two years and her, her taste is going to change from 16.

[B]

True.

[A]

Because no one has the same taste that they did in 16. Or if they do, that's a problem. So I feel like if you're trying to build a classic home, I understand involving your children, but maybe involve them in furniture.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Like involve them in things that can change easily.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

But make decisions for the rest of the house for things that are stuck to the home.

[B]

That makes sense. We recently had a client that we were designing. How old is she? She's 10. And the mom was. This was a previous client of ours that we'd done three other projects for them, including renovating their whole historic home in Wicker Park.

[C]

Cool. Oh, cool.

[B]

They were like, we want her to be the decision maker. And so the mom was like, you could tell she's like, are you sure? Are you sure this one? She's like, no, I want this one. You don't like it? You know, but she did. She's like, she's 10. I'm gonna let her, like, love every element of this room. But, you know, I invited.

[A]

I.

[B]

She loved it. I mean, she loved it. That's great.

[A]

I mean, it's. We've talked. Race. We were talking the other day about how kids get to decide things, and she said that she's been in a house where there was glitter tile everywhere because they got to decide at 12, and now they're 22, and nothing's changed. So they're living with glitter tile.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I don't even know what glitter tile.

[A]

I didn't know it existed. Apparently, there was also glitter grout, which we were like, that's a thing. There's no way that's a thing.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Okay. Anyway, I digress. I left that meeting feeling completely deflated. I thought, is this what it's going to be like when I'm actually in charge of a project? Is this the kind of thing I have to deal with? So, yeah, I'm still learning, and I'm trying not to take it personally, but honestly, it felt like a gut punch, and it's a moment I'll never forget.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's a learning experience.

[C]

I think whether it's a teen or adult, like, that would freak me out. Yeah, for sure. It just takes you to second guess everything. Cause you work so hard on it.

[A]

I do think we talk a lot about how design school really set us up for being able to take criticism. Because, like, there's literally a thing called a crit, which is where they just give you criticism for your whole project. And so I think that gave me a really tough shell. I would go home and bow cry. But now someone will be like, I hate that. Okay, moving on. Like, you just kind of have to. But I don't like with. Can you tell me why? Can you verbalize what you don't like about it? I think with experience, you get more used to it.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And honestly, if you TR your taste, then you can just be like, they're wrong. Moving on.

[B]

Yeah, well. And that's a thousand percent, like, building the thick skin for sure. And not taking things personally. But this is one. One thing that we do in the surveys. We might not be everyone's cup of tea, because I agree with you. I think I have good taste. My taste may not be exactly what you're looking for. And we're just maybe not a good. Not a good thing. And that's okay.

[A]

Doesn't mean I'm bad at my job.

[B]

Doesn't mean I'm bad at my job. It just means we have completely different aesthetics.

[A]

Choose someone else.

[B]

Choose someone else. And it's okay.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But the thick skin is very important in this business. Like, I think we all have gone home and cried for different reasons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whether it's like you're angry, upset. What? I usually cry more out of anger.

[A]

Anger. Me too.

[B]

Like, I've worked so hard on this.

[A]

And there's a frustration. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You can't hurt my.

[A]

I mean, Gracie's seen me cry to frustration many a time.

[C]

You've seen me cry right. Out of frustration.

[A]

Tears are fine here. They happen.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But it does. It gives you. It's just one of those things that are, you know, a notch in your belt where you're able to be like, that happened. Moving on. And now I know how to handle it. And I'm not gonna let a 13 year old make me feel like I'm not good at my job.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right. Because at the end of the day, you're working for a designer. Other people think you're good at your job. Yep. So a teenager telling you you're not.

[C]

Like, I don't gotta remind yourself, you're 13.

[A]

If you don't wanna trade places with the person, then what does their opinion matter?

[B]

Yeah. No, I completely agree. For the designer, I would say, like, do a deep dive of lessons learned at the end of the day. Absolutely. I do that for every one of my projects, whether they're successful projects or like, oh, okay. Like, what could I have done differently for the things that went wrong? Because things go wrong on every single project. So maybe she really needs, I think.

[A]

That like an audit, essentially.

[B]

An audit.

[A]

I think that's very smart.

[B]

Roll it in. And maybe she's not best suited to work with teenagers or whatever. Whatever the conclusion is.

[A]

Well. And hopefully her boss will also help guide her in today's situations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, we feel for you, but it'll be okay.

[B]

It'll be okay.

[A]

Penance for the teenager. Or maybe we should get penance for the. For the parents.

[B]

Parents, we need etiquette school, for sure. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I think they need to spend a weekend with my mother.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She'd have manners for days.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[A]

Absolutely. I jokingly call my mom Emily Post. Like, she really is Southern, like, very, you know, and I Mean, I love it because I know my manners. I am, you know, I don't go anywhere without bringing something. Like, she really?

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And it has made me a more adult, I think. So well rounded, successful, because those things do matter, especially as you get older. And I would be so annoyed at, like, 8 years old that I had to bring something to my friend's house when I'm going on a plane. No one else brings anything. Mom, that's so stupid.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But now I'm like, okay, it makes complete sense.

[B]

It makes complete sense.

[A]

So they'll spend a week.

[B]

I love that. Call your mom. Absolutely. She needs a hotline number, actually.

[A]

She would be great at that. She's a judge. Or was a judge.

[B]

Oh, gosh. Fantastic. There's double yes. I love this. I love it.

[A]

Okay, mom, we're shipping her off. Confession number two. Okay, I need to get this off my chest. As an interior designer, you're supposed to have your team, your contractor, your subs, all working in harmony to bring the vision to life. But I hit a major bump with this one. I actually found the contractor for a project. I thought I was doing the right thing. You know, I recommend him to the client, brought him on board, and everything started out fine. But then little by little, things started to change. Of course, A tale as old as time.

[C]

We've all been here.

[A]

We've all been here. At first, he seemed great, on time, professional, excited about the design. But after a few weeks on site, it was like a switch flipped. He started nitpicking every little thing I did, questioning my design choices, making comments like, this doesn't make sense, or that's not how I would have done it in front of other subs. It was frustrating, but I tried to brush it off. I mean, sometimes contractors are just opinionated. Right.

[B]

So this is the first time she's.

[A]

Worked with him, it sounds like.

[B]

So. Didn't have.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, didn't have.

[B]

That is very hard.

[A]

Well, especially because, I mean, I've certainly been here, especially when I was younger. Like, everyone is going to assume that the contractor is right and we're wrong. Because even though, I mean, you also need to, you know, have some sort of schooling to be a contractor. But we went to school for four years. Like, I know all the codes. Like, I know what I'm talking about. Right. And so the idea that. That just because they're older and a man, the majority of the time, the client and the subs and everyone's going to automatically listen to them, it puts you on the back foot, which is difficult for sure.

[B]

No, I agree.

[A]

I've definitely gotten better at like when I see it. Nipping it in the bud.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Calling him directly. Hey, listen, don't forget who got you this job.

[B]

Yeah, that's never gonna happen again. Absolutely.

[A]

Ever. Like that is when you have to just have the hard conversation.

[B]

It's also interesting, I don't often have that many meetings where the client is there. Are you saying the client was there in this situation?

[A]

The sub was there, but I mean.

[B]

Kind of undermining their decision making.

[A]

Yeah, I have read this. So it does also start to involve clients, which is even when, which, I mean, we have clients who want to be at every walkthrough.

[C]

Yeah, every walkthrough.

[B]

Oh, geez.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So it's very involved.

[B]

It's very involved.

[A]

So, yeah, I mean, we just had a situation where I wasn't on site because the client said it wasn't going to be a full meeting. So I sent one of our junior designers at her request. And then at the meeting that turned into a meeting, the contractor told her that we can't use the tile that was selected because it's gonna cut their feet or something insanely stupid. And it's just like, that's just A, not true. B, we can have the brand literally write a letter that says that's not true. Like, we've seen this installed a thousand times. But because they got to it first and I wasn't there to nip it in the bud, the client doesn't really care what the brand has to say. Yeah, because she's going to take the contractor's word for it. Because the contractor can scare them and be like, well, it can get mold cuz water. You know what I mean? And then they're not going to take the chance. It is. Talk about crying out of frustration. That's when you're like, you get in your car and you're just screaming, I can't.

[B]

Very unfortunate. Yeah.

[A]

I can't do this.

[B]

It happens. I mean, it's a big risk, right. When you're going in cold with someone that you've never worked with. I mean, is this a referral? Did she say?

[A]

She didn't say. It doesn't. Yeah. I mean, we have to do it when we have out of town projects, like out of state projects.

[B]

Oh, sure, sure.

[A]

And we'll do our due diligence as much as humanly possible. And sometimes it still happens. Often what we've found is that clients are sometimes choosing the most Affordable option. And then, and as we all know, it's like actually not as affordable as anyone ever said it is because they underbid or whatever it is.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So I think we're just kind of in this budget scale where we're like about to be to the next step where they're just gonna pay a million dollars and not really question it. But right now we're just for out of state especially, we're just not quite there. So it's hard to find like I can find a fabulous, insanely good contract. It's hard to find those like middle ground good contractors, but not a million dollars. But that like won't, you know, throw you under the bus or fuck up the project or whatever it is. That's the hard piece. Because most of the good ones end up being able to charge a million dollars. Of course that makes sense like as anyone would. So I feel like it's kind of causes a bit of a problem in the industry.

[B]

And even the ones that aren't charging a million dollars, they're busy all the time.

[A]

If you find the good ones, then they have a year.

[B]

Exactly. The weights are ridiculous.

[A]

I mean it's crazy.

[B]

Good point.

[A]

She says. But it got worse.

[B]

Oh no.

[A]

One day we were on site and he straight up yelled at me in front of the whole crew, yelled at me. I was so embarrassed and I could feel everyone's eyes on me. It was like I wasn't even part of my own project anymore. And here's the kicker. Whenever there is a problem, he started going straight to the client instead of coming to me to problem solve.

[B]

Oh no.

[A]

My God. Murder.

[B]

Murder.

[C]

Uh huh.

[A]

It was like he was trying to make me look bad, make me seem like I couldn't handle things. Yeah, that is what it feels like.

[B]

Who is the relationship with? Is it between her?

[A]

She hired the contractor. So okay, so the clients hired her and then she hired the client.

[B]

Right, but she hired the contractor. Yeah. I mean, missing some rules of engagement here.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The way that that person would never work again in my city. I mean I would just be like, by the way, avoid this guy at all costs. He's blowing up his business. But sometimes contractors don't understand the like tight knit group of designers and how like once a designer says don't work with that person, they're done.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they'll shoot themselves in the foot. I had a recent. Well I guess it's still going on. The client came to me for design help, asked me to do the whole project and I said no, I'm like, I'll do the design for you. But we don't do a lot of work in high rises for many reasons.

[C]

Totally understand that.

[B]

Don't really want to manage.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so hired this person and who is very much this contractor we're discussing. So second guessing every decision we've made. We even at the end of our deliverable set, handed over contracts with our vendors. Our vendors were calling us saying, you know, this guy came in trying to unwind your whole design, trying to like change everything so he can go back to the client and, and like, you know, say, oh, well, I came up with a better way to do that.

[A]

And it's like cheaper. And you're like, no, it's. Yes, it's porcelain from China. That's why.

[B]

But it's cheaper. So he can keep skim the marn. Absolutely right.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And so what happened? Fast forward enough of this guy doing this. All the vendors are like, kind of put him on a do not list. And then sure enough, phone rings and he's like calling us, like kind of begging for help.

[A]

Hey, do you have any work?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He's gotten in over his head on this project, so he needs her. So now tail in between legs. So I feel like that stuff catches up with vendors right now. But for her, tough skin, thick skin. You just have to pull that guy aside and just.

[A]

It's also hard because once they start going to the client, you can't go to the client. Cause it's like, it looks like you're like tattling on each other and it's a whole thing. So I feel like it becomes, I mean, this has happened before where we've hired a contractor out of state so we had a little bit less control over the situation. And yeah, he would just change things. Go rogue. Say he didn't have drawings when he did.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Luckily, the client was very intelligent and saw what was happening. But if she hadn't, then it would have been an absolute disaster because he was going to stop at nothing to just make us look like the most.

[B]

Putting you under the bus.

[A]

Yeah. Which luckily clients are like, we know that you're prepared because you're prepared in every other way. So when a contractor says that, it's out of character, so they're less likely to believe it. I feel like in the beginning of my career I didn't know exactly how to manage all of that, so I hadn't gotten that far. They didn't trust me quite yet. And then if there isn't full trust. They're able to transfer that trust to someone else pretty easily, of course. But now we've gotten to the point where we're doing the project, like the phases we're in a little bit more before we hire a contractor. So that way we're a team and we're hiring a contractor together to be able to do this job, and then we'll be on the same team the whole time.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

So I think, at least for us, that's been helpful for sure.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It really has been.

[A]

Now I'm stuck. I don't want to go to the clients and tell on him. I recommended him, I brought him into the project, and if I complain, it looks like I failed to vet him properly. I'm terrified they'll think I can't manage the project and that would hurt my reputation. But at the same time, the tension on site is unbearable, and I'm losing my confidence in my ability to lead the project. I don't know what to do. I'm trying to navigate this without making it a bigger mess than it already is. I want to solve it professionally, but right now, I just feel stuck between trying to keep the peace and not letting myself be undermined. It's been a really tough few weeks, and I just don't know if there's a good way out of this. If anyone's been in this kind of situation. I'd love to hear what you did, because right now, I'm honestly just trying to keep my head above water.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, two things instantly come to mind. And I know this is based on your personality type. I have a very, like, interface personality type. But the first comment about, you know, she doesn't want to go to the clients. I would absolutely go to the client. Just because she referred them. There's been times we all make mistakes.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I think clients appreciate seeing the human side. Like, you made a mistake. Thank you for letting me know. Versus the people that are always trying to cover their mistakes. Yeah.

[C]

Showing some accountability.

[B]

I think people really appreciate that. So show some accountability. I'm so sorry if, you know, to put you in the middle of this and talk about it with your client in the most professional way. And two, definitely pull the guy aside.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Talk about the rules of engagement. You do not speak about me. If you have an issue. We can speak offline.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

About me in front of other subs. Nor do you call the client, you have an issue, you come through me. So, I mean, I think both of those things need to Happen.

[A]

I agree. I also think if he had not yet involved the clients, that's one thing. But he's already gone to the clients. Like, the client already knows something's not right. So at this point, go to them, explain. Fall on your sword if you need to. I think, you know, often we'll have to be like, when clients hire, this is clearly not the A team. So if you're hiring these people, we're all like co signing on this. And it's a bit of a risk.

[B]

It's a bit of a risk.

[A]

And that's how I would start the conversations moving forward is like, we will do the research. We look at Better Business Bureau, we look at leans, we look at. We'll do all of that. But at the end of the day, it's the client's decision. So it's a little bit less on the designer. I think at the end of the day, they'll always be responsible in some way, but at least it's a joint responsibility.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And not the designer saying, this is the guy for you. Pick him. That's when I think you can get a little bit of trouble. And I would never vouch for any contractor in that way because I don't trust a single. I mean, we've never worked together, but I don't trust men in general, and I don't trust a single one to actually do what they say they're going to.

[B]

I a thousand percent agree.

[A]

So it's kind of like. Well, I mean, we'll. We'll take the risk and then see what happens from there.

[C]

That's our fingers.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I think that's brilliant. Okay. Penance. Penance for the designer. I think she deserves a little vacay, like a little self love of some sort. Yeah. A solo, like, weekend spa day is perfect. Yeah. Something to sort of remind you that this isn't your whole life and it's gonna be okay even if this situation doesn't end how you would want it to.

[B]

Yoga.

[A]

Yeah. Some practice that kind of centers you. I feel like I should take my own advice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, penance for the contractor. I mean, I think stop being an a hole.

[B]

Right. God, Seriously.

[A]

I think it'll trekle down and in a couple years people will know.

[B]

Do not useless.

[A]

There's a way to tell designers in like an offhanded comment. I've had other designers tell me, and I'm always like, thank you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you for telling me that contractor is not who I think he is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I feel like, there's ways for her to slip it into conversation with other people.

[B]

Yeah, Even.

[A]

Even, like, not because you're trying to take him down, but because you're trying to warn. Yeah, exactly. Without going on Instagram and being like, this person's horrible. There's a way to sort of, you know, disseminate it to where people. People know it's going.

[B]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

Well, those were our confessions. We're gonna do two questions and then I'll let you go. Okay. What is one question that every designer should ask when vetting a contrast?

[B]

Well, A, how long have you been in business? And B, I'm always interested when I bring on new contractors, how long they've worked with, or if they know any of my other subcontractors.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So in my business, most of my subs I've worked with for 10 plus years, and most of them have worked together for 5 plus years.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So it always creates good synergy when that contractor knows other contractors on your team. You know other contractors on our team? Yeah.

[A]

So those are good. I think those are both. What advice would you give to other women who are interested in pursuing a career in construction? And what do you think needs to change in the industry to make it more inclusive and supportive for women?

[B]

That's a good question and very challenging because it depends on what degree of construction. I dove in at a top level. Buying buildings, demoing them, building new construction. Like, most people don't start at that level. But having my background, I just was like, eh, yeah, I gotta do it. And you did. Of course that can happen.

[A]

I can go back to my IT career. So true.

[C]

Gotta try.

[B]

So most people don't, like, dive in at that level, but I do feel like the most important thing, like having brought on a colleague recently and even the four man, I, I told him, it is critical that you shadow me from the very start of this project because a lot of people want to dive into all the fun areas. They don't want to, like, all the.

[A]

Programming and all of that.

[B]

There's a pipe that, like, froze and now we have to trench, you know.

[A]

Like all that stuff.

[B]

You don't stuff you don't see that you have to think through solutions. So before I like, set anyone off to, like, be able to do their first even mini project, they would have had to have, like, gone along the journey with me from soup to nuts to see one project, you know, makes complete nuts.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Smart. So.

[B]

And I get a lot of calls like, hey, can I intern you know, I'm interested, definitely. Which I always love those people. I always want to give them a chance. So do your research on Instagram, Reach out to those build firms. Send an email, say, are you accepting interns? And that's how a couple of my folks that started. I'll do anything. Do you need errands run? I'll go to the Martin pickup sample same. And you've got to be able to be willing to do everything. Like, you know, not just the glamorous fun stuff.

[A]

Right. Not just the pick, pick and choose pieces.

[B]

So reach out to those people and be assertive and.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that, I mean, a mentor is the ideal scenario. If you can find another woman in construction to help guide you. I will. I do think men have really gate kept construction, the construction industry. And they make it seem like, like must be big men to do the work and it's just not true. And I will be at a cocktail party and someone will be like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm like, go to trade school, please. Literally begging women all around me to get into these trades. You have no idea how much money is in this. I mean, and if we could. If I could just have a. Who can do Venetian plaid? Like, if I could have my girls who I know who to work with. I mean, listen, it's grown up arts and crafts, but men are like, this is so difficult. So women don't go into it. And it's bullshit.

[B]

I completely agree. And I do. Like, I met a woman, Tyler. I'm dying to use her on my project, but she's always booked.

[A]

Absolutely. Of course.

[B]

She is precision, right?

[A]

Very meticulous. Yep.

[B]

But like a Kalia or I have a partnership with O'Brien Harris for their cabinetry. Just like really trying to like circle in on the women. But on trade side, as much as I'm a feminist, sometimes I'm like, oh, I can't. No, I need a man for this.

[C]

I'm not doing this.

[B]

Sorry. Like the plumbing, the mason, that's a blue job.

[A]

That is a dude's job, 1000%.

[B]

I. I'm like, I. I hate even saying something like that, but it, like when they're in the sewers, I was.

[A]

Gonna say I just wouldn't want to watch a woman be in the sewer. I feel really bad.

[B]

Exactly. I was like, oh, God, no.

[A]

We'll make them do the shitty, literal, shitty work.

[C]

Like, that's not.

[B]

I'm fine with that being men. No want to do Any of that. But every once in a while, I'll bring some girlfriends over if we want to work out, actually. And it's like, okay, we're going to lift all these tiles and for an hour we're going to like, you know, go of all up and down all.

[C]

The stairs, but instead it's boxes of tiles.

[B]

It's like job site workouts. And we do that.

[A]

We should start doing that.

[C]

We're going to get some work done and get our steps.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I love that. Oh, my God. That's so. Well, if we can say anything, it's that we need more women in this industry.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think it will only help us all grow and do better work.

[B]

Yes. And I'd say one of the biggest compliments I get from a lot of my clients are I could tell, like, especially when the men come in, they will say, I can tell a woman built this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I love that. You know, because all of the detail, the detail symmetry, the outlets underneath the bathroom vanity, you know, whatever it is, the small details, they all always say that.

[A]

Absolutely. I mean, those are the things that get left off. You know, the. The plate is crooked. There's showing, and you're like, we spent all this money. And then these finishing touches are not. I mean, I'm looking at a light switch right there where it's like, off the wall. It drives me insane. I mean, those are the things that I just.

[B]

Those are the things. And it's. It's very like. I think women in this industry just do a little more of those details.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. Before I even list the home that I complete, I bring in an inspector. Inspector. My. I paid to have an inspector go through the house. And I fix any. Whether it's a small little thing or not, the plate, switch, whatever. I fix every small thing. So when the buyer brings in their inspector, like, perfect.

[A]

They don't find anything genius, you know.

[B]

So, like, the small details that, like.

[A]

Go going above and beyond in small ways that end up making the biggest difference in everything.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

It's genius. I love that. I love that. I love that.

[B]

I love.

[A]

Before I let you go, our tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. What is something that made you feel recently in the last week? It doesn't have to be about design. It can be about anything.

[B]

So recently, I just got back from Paris for Paris Design Week.

[A]

That gave me.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

We were so jealous.

[B]

Oh, my God. I know.

[A]

We have to go next year.

[B]

We're going, you guys. It was fantastic. And one thing, like, just like Kalia. But coming out of that, I realized, like, my call for design is really on timeless design.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if a client wants to hire me for, like, eclectic, I'm just not your girl. And when I go to Paris, I'm like, yes, this makes sense. It is very timeless design. And, I mean, my mouth was just open the whole time, like, oh, my.

[A]

God, there's nothing better. I mean, there really is better.

[B]

And so I would say I'm still kind of on a high coming off that trip and not even, like, skimming the surface. Like, I only really did, like, two days of the design stuff. I was with my family, of course, my perfect husband and whatever.

[C]

He was there, too.

[B]

What do you want to do today? You know, so balancing. Yeah, balancing that. But next year, like, I would dive in every day to. Because there's so many Deco Paris has to offer. It really was.

[A]

We're putting it on our calendar last year for sure. We'll. We'll link up in.

[B]

Have to.

[A]

I would love that. Thank you so much for coming. This was incredible. So fun. Thank you all for listening. I really appreciate all of you. You don't forget, rate review and send us stories if you have any. Until then, peace be with you. Bye.