I confess… my dream project became a divorce gift

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer: Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Confessions of an Interior Designer
• Host: Caroline Turner
• Description: Hosted by Caroline Turner, a luxury interior designer with over a decade of experience, this podcast delves into the unspoken, often chaotic realities of the high-end interior design world. Each episode features candid conversations and anonymous confessions from industry insiders, revealing the humorous and challenging aspects of designing for luxury clients.

Episode Title: I Confess… My Dream Project Became a Divorce Gift
Release Date: January 8, 2025
Guests: Madison Malaga, Interior Designer at CM Interiors

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Introduction

Caroline Turner [00:04]:
“Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession?”

In this episode, Caroline welcomes Madison Malaga from CM Interiors, highlighting Madison's impressive online presence and creative design style.

Guest Introduction

Madison Malaga [00:47]:
“I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me.”

Madison shares her excitement and nervousness about being on the podcast, setting a relaxed and conversational tone for the episode.

Madison’s Journey into Interior Design

Madison Malaga [01:13]:
“I work with my mom, and growing up, she's so creative and was always doing DIYs...”

Madison discusses her background, growing up in a creative household, frequently moving, and being encouraged to design her own spaces. Her passion for design was initially complemented by her love for photography, which eventually led her to formal design education and collaboration with her mother.

Madison Malaga [02:14]:
“But I've always been drawn to design...”

Eventually, Madison transitioned from a general studies degree to design school, partnering with her mother to build a growing interior design business.

Confessions: Dream Project as a Divorce Gift

Caroline Turner [18:47]:
“Let me tell you about one of the most complicated and shocking projects I've ever worked on...”

Madison recounts a particularly harrowing project where she designed a home for a couple who appeared to have a harmonious partnership. Halfway through, Caroline narrates how the wife discovered her husband’s affair, leading to a tense working environment.

Caroline Turner [23:10]:
“...this house is her divorce gift.”
Timestamp: [22:57]

This revelation—where the husband intended the house to be a divorce gift—turned the project into an emotional and ethically complex situation. Madison and Caroline discuss the impact on the designer, the client’s relationship, and the emotional toll of such projects.

Challenges with Client Credit and Ethical Practices

Caroline Turner [43:02]:
“They have all been wronged. They all hate him. They're taking it out on the man who's living in their home.”

Madison and Caroline delve into the frustration of clients who take credit for the designer’s work, sharing personal experiences where clients either undervalued their contributions or outright credited themselves for the design.

Caroline Turner [46:43]:
“...if you hire a designer that is a luxury service, why aren't you telling people that you did that?”

They emphasize the importance of proper credit in the industry, advocating for designers to protect their work and reputation through contracts and clear agreements.

Managing Workload and Social Media

Caroline Turner [63:29]:
“I always hired earlier than I technically should have... managing people.”

Madison shares strategies for hiring help, stressing the importance of expanding the team when workload increases and the benefits of gradual scaling. They discuss the critical role of social media in attracting clients.

Madison Malaga [67:37]:
“Having a dedicated person for that, if you can, is awesome.”

Both guests agree that delegating social media tasks to dedicated team members or hiring specialists significantly enhances business growth and client acquisition.

Strategies for Handling Difficult Clients

Caroline Turner [53:15]:
“That's what I love the idea.”
Timestamp: [53:15]

Madison provides practical advice on dealing with clients who attempt to exploit or undervalue the designer’s work. They highlight the necessity of setting boundaries, maintaining professionalism, and the importance of contracts to prevent such issues.

Caroline Turner [62:42]:
“Or you do the designer, I'll do the client.”
Timestamp: [62:42]

They humorously suggest penance for unethical clients and designers, reinforcing the podcast’s lighthearted yet insightful exploration of industry challenges.

Insights on Photographer and Designer Relationships

Caroline Turner [47:04]:
“Yeah, we're going to do a photography one too also.”

The conversation shifts to the intricate relationship between designers and photographers. They discuss the challenges of crediting designers appropriately and the financial dynamics involved when designers pay photographers to showcase their work.

Caroline Turner [48:14]:
“...but if you didn't pay them to shoot it.”
Timestamp: [48:14]

They critique the current system where designers invest heavily in photography but often do not receive proportional credit, advocating for better recognition and equitable agreements.

Effective Workload Management

Caroline Turner [63:29]:
“How do you know when it's the right time to hire help?”

Madison and Caroline explore effective strategies for managing business growth, balancing workload with personal time, and the importance of having dedicated roles within the team to handle various aspects of the business, including social media and client management.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Madison Malaga [75:49]:
“Yeah. It really is. And I think everyone who is in the design industry, like, I'm continually impressed with everyone.”

Caroline and Madison conclude on a positive note, celebrating the artistry and personal fulfillment that comes with interior design. They emphasize the deep emotional connections designers forge through their work and the tangible impact they have on clients' lives.

Caroline Turner [77:54]:
“Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.”
Timestamp: [78:06]

They express gratitude towards each other and their listeners, reinforcing the supportive community within the interior design industry.

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Notable Quotes

• Madison Malaga [04:16]:
  “I had to pry the mattress off the ground. Cause it was covered in dirt... It was so gross.”

• Caroline Turner [12:42]:
  “That was really, really good. So much easier to just be like, I'm so sorry, but the equation doesn't add up.”

• Madison Malaga [55:45]:
  “...we can say a whole home tour or just certain tours in certain areas and not mention anything.”

• Caroline Turner [77:22]:
  “It's kind of a private and, like, special thing... no one knows the literal blood, sweat, and tears that it took to get you there.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Collaborative Growth: Working alongside family can be both rewarding and challenging in the interior design industry.
2. Emotional Impact of Design Projects: Projects can intertwine deeply with clients' personal lives, creating complex emotional narratives.
3. Importance of Credit and Ethics: Designers must advocate for proper recognition of their work to maintain professional integrity.
4. Strategic Business Management: Hiring strategically and delegating tasks like social media are crucial for sustainable business growth.
5. Navigating Difficult Clients: Establishing clear boundaries and robust contracts are essential to protect designers from exploitative practices.
6. Value of Photography in Design: Equitable arrangements between designers and photographers are necessary to ensure mutual benefit and proper credit.

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Connect with Caroline Turner and Madison Malaga:

• Caroline Turner:

  • Instagram: ConfessionsofID
  • TikTok: carolineturnerinteriors
  • Podcast and Show Notes: Confessions of an Interior Designer

• Madison Malaga:

  • Instagram: adisonmalaga
  • TikTok: adisonmalaga
  • Joint Instagram with CM Interiors: CM Interiors

Submit Your Confession: Submit Here
Join the Conversation: Facebook Group

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Whether you're an industry veteran or simply fascinated by the behind-the-scenes stories of luxury interior design, this episode offers a captivating glimpse into the personal and professional challenges faced by designers like Madison and Caroline. From unexpected personal dramas to ethical dilemmas, "Confessions of an Interior Designer" ensures listeners are both entertained and enlightened.

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Madison Malaga, an incredibly talented interior designer at CM Interiors, where she works alongside her mom. I've been following Madison on Instagram and TikTok for months, and I'm absolutely obsessed with her style and the way she shares her stunning transformations. Her work is truly inspiring, and I know you're going to love her just as much as I do. Let's get into it. Madison, thank you so much for being here.

[Madison Malaga]

I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. I sent in my email and equally excited and equally nervous, but ready.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think that is totally normal. Hopefully you'll get less nervous as we go, and it will just be like girls chatting because that's, you know, ultimately what this is amazing. Okay.

[Madison Malaga]

Completely.

[Caroline Turner]

So it's so nice that you listen, but that also means that you kind of know what to expect here, which is nice. So we're gonna start with how did you get here?

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. Listening to those question that question, and I had to think, well, how the freak did I actually get here? Because it has been a long journey.

[Caroline Turner]

I love that.

[Madison Malaga]

Like, y'all just heard. I work with my mom, and growing up, she's so creative and was always doing DIYs. She, like, we did our entire bottom floor, Wayne Scotting all by herself.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Madison Malaga]

And I've always just felt, you know, drawn to that. And then we moved quite a bit growing up and how my parents bribed us to happily move to new places was by saying, like, you guys can design your own room. And actually, in our Chicago house, we lived in Charles for a little bit.

[Caroline Turner]

I didn't know that.

[Madison Malaga]

I know it was only a couple years and. But it was really fun. Our house was really cool, and it was just a little too cold. But my room was the brightest teal you could think of. With vinyl lettering, if you remember that.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God, absolutely.

[Madison Malaga]

Vinyl brown polka dots all over the entire ceiling.

[Caroline Turner]

You were living my dream.

[Madison Malaga]

I know. Seriously, I had to beg my mom for this platform bed that, honestly, I kind of killed it with because it was still something I would think was cool today, but just always been drawn to design. Later, I fell in love with photography and got myself through college doing that, but I was kind of stuck. Didn't know what to do. I was getting my general studies degree because that's how little I knew what I wanted out of life. And then back home, my mom had started taking on clients. She was just doing, like, little projects for her friends. And it started to grow a little bit. Grow a little bit. So I wrapped up my general studies degree and went to design school and have been working with her together since the first year of school.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Madison Malaga]

And it's been so fun and has just kind of snowballed into something that is a lot bigger than we ever thought it would be. And then about a year and a half ago, two years ago, my husband and I bought our first house. And it was kind of the biggest disaster ever. It was a ex hoarder house.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God.

[Madison Malaga]

I know. And I mean, it was obvious that there were some mental health challenges that he had. But I mean, the house, like, we. Like I said, I'm in Texas. And he did not have air conditioning or water for the past 10 years.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, that's a whole other level.

[Madison Malaga]

A whole other level.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. I know we've worked on a hoarder project, but that is like in the heat. Oh, boy.

[Madison Malaga]

In the heat.

[Caroline Turner]

You are so brave.

[Madison Malaga]

I know. So freaking brave. And we had, like, no experience doing any of this. I had just done at that point what I had, you know, specced for the contractors to do, but not to do myself at this point. And we were, yeah, 24. And like, I was picking. This is gross. But picking dead rats. Their skeleton off of the floor in his bedroom. And like, we had to pry the mattress off the ground. Cause it was covered in dirt. There was no flooring in the.

[Caroline Turner]

So I literally have chills.

[Madison Malaga]

I know. Gosh. Is that too gross?

[Caroline Turner]

No, it's not. It is so real. And I'm obsessed. Like, it's like one of. It's like a train wreck that you can't look away from, like, oh, my God.

[Madison Malaga]

Fully. And this is the house right here. If you're watching.

[Caroline Turner]

I was going to say her home is stunning. Also, if you're not, like, we'll put a clip up, obviously, but also go watch her videos because I feel like you see your home a lot and. God, it's beautiful. It is. I feel like. Have you done a before and after video? Or is the before too gnarly?

[Madison Malaga]

I have not done full space before and after, and I need to.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like the Internet would lose their minds.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, thank you. There's still stuff that I am being the perfectionist That I need to, like, wrap up and get done.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure.

[Madison Malaga]

But yeah, then I just started sharing because working in luxury interior design, but I'm 24, doing my ex hoarder house, and I don't have the same budget as my clients in interior design. So I just started to share the DIYs I was doing around my house and the projects. Like, I wanted this really specific tile that I could not afford. So I ended up. I'm not gonna say the name of the company, but I ended up making the tile from scratch and things like.

[Caroline Turner]

That, which is also so much more special. I feel like you're gonna look at those floors forever and be like, oh, my God, this tile. I made this. I did this with my hands. That's pretty incredible.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, it's a really great feeling and it's really special. Our first home and. Yeah, we're happy with it.

[Caroline Turner]

That's so sweet. I love that.

[Madison Malaga]

Thank you.

[Caroline Turner]

So how many years have you and your mom been working together now?

[Madison Malaga]

We've been working together not that long. Probably total, like three years, three and a half years.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. Okay. Amazing. And how do you feel like it's evolved from when you guys first started working together to now? Because I'm sure it has a ton.

[Madison Malaga]

Well, first of all, the price, the difference in where we were in the beginning.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, yep, same.

[Madison Malaga]

The lowest number. That is kind of embarrassing to think back on now, but we were just, in a good way, naive to it.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

Cause just started so blindly, like, just started going, we've never advertised, which has been awesome. I think it's just all been word of mouth and grown a lot bigger than we thought it would be. Like, we thought it would just be taking on little projects from our friends or. But yeah, I think the scale of everything has been bigger than we thought and different.

[Caroline Turner]

And is that because you're saying you never even dreamed it? Which is so interesting to me because I feel like I could even see that you guys would get to this point because the talent is really intense. And I mean, really, like, not something especially. I feel like in your area that you're seeing a lot. Like you guys are doing different things than what is, like, geographically, I would say, expected. And that obviously is grabbing people's attention. Are you guys are working in commercial too, right?

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, we do a little bit of commercial. Not that much, but I think I would like to get into commercial a little bit more.

[Caroline Turner]

Not sterile commercial, but like, hospitality. Yes.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, I'd love to get more into that. And it's kind of Just naturally happened already. I like the aspect of commercial that it's not as personal.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

And, yeah, I agree. Deal with a little bit less of the client therapy side when you do commercial. And that's been. I bet you know that very well.

[Caroline Turner]

I agree. I feel like commercial, it lets you, like, spread your wings a little bit more, and it's. You're able to. At least for us. What I'm always telling our clients is like, this is not your home. It's not a living room. It needs to stand on its own. You want people to have an emotional response to it. Like, it doesn't need to be that the fabric's good for your dog on your sofa. Like, we're talking public spaces. And that is, like, almost freeing, in a sense, because you're able to do things that you just can't do in a home.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, exactly. And I think you can do more chaotic things when you do commercial, because you don't have to relax in it. You can. It can be crazy. It can be fun, and it doesn't.

[Caroline Turner]

Have to be calming. And for the rest of the next 20 years, it's like, no, we want a moment. I completely agree. And that's ultimately why we are all doing this. Right. Is to create those moments. And I feel like sometimes when you're just churning out residential, it can feel a little bit like, okay, I've done this. I've seen this. I want to, you know, do something else. And that commercial piece, I feel like, lets you sort of spread your wings, which is fun.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, completely.

[Caroline Turner]

So you talked about you did photography in college. You're the one that's shooting Yalls projects, right?

[Madison Malaga]

Yes, I do.

[Caroline Turner]

That is amazing. Can you talk to me about that? Cause I feel like the cost of a photo shoot is crazy, as I'm sure you know. And so we're not churning out as much like, we're not photographing as many projects as I would like, because we're having to, like, it's like a $20,000 endeavor every time you do it.

[Madison Malaga]

I actually can't comprehend that.

[Caroline Turner]

Right. Can you? Like, how. Because then you have to pick, like, your one favorite project to photograph. And that's. At least. We have to. We're not to the point where we can spend $100,000 a year in marketing. Like, that's just not going to happen. And so you photograph your projects. It's so smart. It's so smart. But do you feel like it has. Like, did you have to learn specifically for interior photography? How did that happen? Talk to me a little bit about that.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, I think the creative side of me, the framing out the photo comes very naturally. Like, figuring out what I want, the angle I want, the proportions I want. That comes naturally. But the camera systems themselves do not come naturally to me. I had to learn that. And honestly, I'm still not the best at it. That portion. But yeah, just like what you talked about, it's so, so expensive. And that's fair. Like, they earn it. It's a lot of work.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Madison Malaga]

Editing or so much work. But it just being my mom and I and not having to take. Not taking out business loans yet and things like that. Like, we weren't really at the place where we could hire a photographer. And like you said, then you only have to pick your favorite project. And we. We do so many projects that. Which is probably something that we should change. We probably should just do larger ones and less frequent.

[Caroline Turner]

You'll get there. You'll get there. Yeah, you will get there. It takes some. I feel like the. The time that you guys are in, that's where I was. I was. I had, like, 15 projects at one time. Because not. Not one of them is gonna pay all your bills. You'll get to the point where you have, like, we have, I think, eight projects that are full service. And that is perfect because it's like, we're able to do start to finish. And I'm not having to, like, come in halfway through or, like, finalize things or whatever those, like, halfway projects are, you know, you'll get there.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, totally. And I think, like, now we're at the point where we don't have to. But saying no is so hard. So hard. Something that I really need to work on. Cause sometimes it's fun. Like, I like to do that. And turning down money is just hard.

[Caroline Turner]

I will say it's so hard. And then it gets way easier. Like, once you start saying no and you get a little bit of practice, those first couple. And my employees will tell you, sometimes we'll go to a consultation and, like, our books will be closed, and the client will try to talk us into working with them. And I will start to waver. I'll be like, yeah, well, you know, I really like you guys, and I think this could be good. And Gracie's looking at me like, no, we don't have time. We can't take this on. I think some of that is also when you have employees. Like, now I'm focused on not overloading them. Like, it's easy to overload yourself. But if you have other people and you know that they're at their limit, saying, like, our team can't take on any more, that makes it easier. Also, you know, my sort of rule of thumb is people pay place. If it's. If it doesn't have two out of three, meaning if the clients aren't incredible and they're going to pay me an astronomical amount, but the project is hideous, I'll take it. If the clients are assholes, but the project's amazing and the money's there, well, that one's a little bit more you have to think about. But often we'll take it. And then if the design's incredible and the clients are incredible, but the money's not all the way there, we'll often still take it because you're gonna get, like, a better result. That has helped me be less emotional about it. And it's almost like an equation. Like, does this project have 2 out of 3? If not, we have to say, no, wait, that's genius.

[Madison Malaga]

I need to, like, log that in my head, because I love that so much.

[Caroline Turner]

That was really, really good. So much easier to just be like, I'm so sorry, but the equation doesn't add up. Cause then it's not personal. You're not saying, like, I'm not. You know, it's just very, like, this is cut and dry, matter of fact. Yes, exactly. And I think it's hard because you people can be so lovely and you want to give them a beautiful home. Especially when you like your job. You're like, I want to keep going. I can do this. I'm excited. But that's when you get that creative burnout. And then you can't actually do any of the jobs that you want to do because you're so burned out. I mean, it's a cycle, which I've gone through, like, a hundred times at this point to get to this point. But you will.

[Madison Malaga]

That's reassuring. You believe it.

[Caroline Turner]

You definitely will. You definitely will. I mean, you guys are doing a great job already. But I feel like the saying no part, once you get that down, you'll feel like you get your head above water a little bit totally badly. Which, I mean, it depends on the day. I'm saying, like, we have our heads above water. Well, it's really, really depends on the day. It's a Monday, so I'm today feeling like we do, but that's because I don't fully even know what we have to turn in by the end of the week. So ignorance is Bliss.

[Madison Malaga]

Ignorance is aware. I'm. I'm so aware that it's so bad.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, I think I'm just, like, trying to tuck it, you know, put it in a box and tuck it away on the shelf. It's fun. We'll do it in a couple hours.

[Madison Malaga]

Therapist would probably recommend that, like a good, healthy compartmentalization. Compartmentalization is doing what they say that.

[Caroline Turner]

Or just fully ignoring the problem, which sometimes doesn't. Yeah, but you will say I'm compartmentalizing for sure.

[Madison Malaga]

Smart.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, I'm excited to get into some confessions, but before we do, question. What's a vice you partake in?

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, gosh. Okay. I am so basic when it comes to this, but I grew up very Mormon, and if you don't know, they don't drink coffee or anything else. And it's. It's soda. Soda is my biggest vice. A 44 ounce fountain coke Zero with, like, little pebble ice. I drink it once a day. It is so bad. Like, I'm talking, like, this big.

[Caroline Turner]

No, but it's so crispy and, like, just so crispy. Oh, my God. It makes you want to live. Like, you're, like, you take a sip of crispy soda and you were like, I want to be on this earth. I want to continue to live here.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. Do they have swigs? Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Is there a swig where you guys are?

[C]

San Antonio.

[Madison Malaga]

There actually is. They opened up. I think there's two swigs in San Antonio. But I went to design school in Utah.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, wait. We might have a mutual. We might have an overlap. We're going to offline about that at the end because.

[Madison Malaga]

Okay, I'm excited.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, offline for sure. I think we have some overlap. Oh, my God, that's so funny. Wait, so when you went to school in Utah, were you Mormon?

[Madison Malaga]

I was phasing out when I was in. So I went to. I got my general in Idaho and was still trying to be Mormon. And then Utah, the school is just so. Religion is so woven into education that you can't have both there. Like, you can fake it till you make it. And I did. But, like, you have to have an endorsement from the school, from your bishop or your priest or. It's not our priest, but, you know, the same.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

And every class. No offense, no hate. Do whatever you want. It wasn't for me.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, no, don't worry. You're talking to the right girl. Literally. I grew up Catholic and this whole podcast is making fun of Catholicism. So, like, don't worry.

[Madison Malaga]

So true. So true.

[Caroline Turner]

I went to Catholic school and meanwhile, I'm like, welcome to confession.

[Madison Malaga]

They're all looking down at you right now.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, 1,000%.

[Madison Malaga]

My priest is pissed. He's pissed. But you start every class. Like, I'd be in my codes class and the beginning would start with a spiritual topic.

[Caroline Turner]

That is insanity.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. So I couldn't really, you know, and every student was assigned a spiritual topic for each class. So you would have to give them. And you couldn't really fully get out yet until you're out of school.

[Caroline Turner]

They're still indoctrinating you while it's happening. So you're, like, fighting against it while you're in it. Yeah, yeah. That's so difficult.

[Madison Malaga]

And it's easier for them to relay the message because a lot of design, they incorporate back to spirituality, which I think, in a way, if you take out for me, if you take out the religion part is really true.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, because it is.

[Madison Malaga]

I view it as something spiritual and beautiful, but it's too interwoven with teachings of religion for me.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, well, religion and spirituality are. I consider those two completely different things. In fact, my religion growing up had no spirituality. Like, there wasn't a spiritual aspect, in my opinion. Like, Catholicism is very, like, dogmatic. Like, it's all about, like, the rules and how to do right. And, like, it wasn't about, in my opinion, like, having a spiritual connection. So I'm with you. I'm like, very woo woo now, like, so far, the other side crystals charging on my in the moonlight type of situation. And I feel like both of those, there's, like, undercurrents to both that are the same, but one is just, like, a lot more focused on sin and one is a lot more focused on, like, the positive aspects of spirituality, I think. And that I feel like has made such a difference. Okay, well, I can't tell you how much I want a crispy Coke right now. Like, you really just. My mouth is watering water. Are you ready to hear confession?

[Madison Malaga]

I am so ready.

[Caroline Turner]

I am so excited. I have not read either of these, so we're going to learn at the same time. All right, let's go. Let me tell you about one of the most complicated and shocking projects I've ever worked on. It was a custom build for a couple who seemed like the picture of a perfect partnership. Say that five times.

[C]

I was gonna say, wow, a picture.

[Caroline Turner]

Of a perfect partnership. They've been working on this house for years. Five years, to be exact.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, right.

[Caroline Turner]

The wife Was deeply invested in every detail, from the layout to the color of the grout between the bathroom tiles. The husband was more hands off, but he showed up just enough to give the impression that he cared. I. Yep. I know a couple like that. Yep. Which, honestly. Thank God. Exactly, sir.

[Madison Malaga]

For real.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. About halfway through the project, things took a dramatic turn. The wife found out her husband was having an affair.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, no.

[Caroline Turner]

I know. Apparently, it had been going on for years, basically since the house project began. She was devastated, but ultimately decided to stay with him.

[Madison Malaga]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

She told me they were going to work through it because they had put so much time, energy, and money into this house.

[Madison Malaga]

I'm also dying to know how the designer, if the client. If they were close enough that she just came and said, yep.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, how she found out, probably knowing, like, my clients, that's what would happen. If we were working with them and something like that happened, I feel like they would be like, yeah, so. Oh, my life's falling apart. Like, here's what's going on. I feel like there's a couple that would maybe not say anything, but generally speaking, I think they would, I guess.

[Madison Malaga]

More if the choice was for them to stay together, then that would. For me, I would be, like, less likely to tell someone if I was staying.

[Caroline Turner]

From experience, I've had a situation like this, and it happened. And I literally said to myself, you gotta make the decision right now, because if you're gonna leave, leave, but if not, you can't tell anyone.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Which is, like, looking back, actually really scary. But I knew that. So clearly in my mind, to be clear, I left and I told everyone. So, like, I chose the right thing. But I do understand that instinct. Because you're like, I can't. If we're gonna work this out, I'm certainly not gonna tell everyone this horrible thing that they just did. Because, I mean, knowing myself, I would never forgive. So I feel like that can get kind of complicated. I'm not the type who would tell someone something and then stay. Even from, like, a shame perspective. I just couldn't personally.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Same not passing judgment because everyone has, like, different breaking points. Cheating for me is, like, not. I'll never be able to get past it. Well, I'll never be able to trust you again. We are not, like, it's just one of those things for me that's, like, it's a deal breaker wholeheartedly. But some people don't feel that way. And, like, that's completely and totally fine. They're entitled to that.

[Madison Malaga]

For the designer Though maybe she just made her feel safe enough where she.

[Caroline Turner]

I think, too, is. I think that is lovely that the client felt like they could talk to the designer. Absolutely. The thing I'm hung up on is because they had put so much time, energy, and money into this house, is why they said they were going to work on it. And I'm like, well, I don't know that that should be the reason. You know, they say if your marriage is falling apart, people have a baby or build a house. And I think that is so beyond true. I've seen it in my.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

Totally. I almost said practice in my practice. No, I've seen that with our clients, too. I feel like it's very. That Definitely. They're. They're holding. They're gripping with their fingernails in. And you can tell in the meetings what's going on.

[Madison Malaga]

Not doing it for the love, but they're doing it for the house, which. Yeah, maybe that's okay.

[Caroline Turner]

You know, I would. I've done worse things for a house. Probably it depends on what the house looks like. Yeah, girl. Okay. From then on, there was this weird tension at every meeting. The husband barely spoke, and the wife overcompensated by being overly cheerful and enthusiastic, like she was trying to convince herself that everything was fine.

[C]

Aww.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, I can, like, feel that energy, and that is less than ideal. That poor wife.

[Madison Malaga]

I am seriously.

[Caroline Turner]

We finally finished the house, and I have to say, it was stunning. Every detail was perfect. The custom cabinetry, the soaring ceilings, the statement lighting. During the final walkthrough, I was expecting this to be a really emotional moment for them, considering how long they'd been working on it. But instead, the husband pulled me aside and says, just so you know, we're never moving in.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh.

[Caroline Turner]

What? I was completely confused. Before I could even ask what he meant, he dropped the bombshell. This house is her divorce gift.

[Madison Malaga]

I have two thoughts. First, he's so wrong for that. Second, thank God. Like, she gets it.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank God.

[Madison Malaga]

God. Yeah, thank God.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, look, if a man's going to cheat, at least build me a house and pay for it before you go.

[Madison Malaga]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, of all the divorce gifts, that's a pretty fucking good one. I felt like the air had been sucked out of the room. Turns out, while the wife thought they were rebuilding their relationship, the husband was quietly planning his exit.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, that's so much worse. So she didn't know?

[Caroline Turner]

She didn't know.

[C]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

That is way, way, way, way, way worse.

[C]

D Diabolical.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh. As soon as the project wrapped, he filed for divorce and handed her the keys to the house. Holy shit.

[C]

Would she even want it at that point? That's the question, too.

[Caroline Turner]

Because the thing is, if you really wanted to do her a favor, tell her that you want to get a divorce, pay for the house, let that be the divorce gift. But let her do it right. Why are you even involved now? She's going to see at every corner that stupid fudgeing TV that you made her put there. Like, because we all know every man has, like, a literal TV fetish and needs one in every square inch of their home. Like, it's just. And I feel like I would just. I would be so angry that I wouldn't be able to, like, enjoy.

[Madison Malaga]

Enjoy the house. Well.

[C]

And you know that she was thinking of, like, what their life was going to look like and building this up. And, you know, you get excited, right? You're building this house. This is. We're going to.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Keisha's here. We're going to have a morning coffee here.

[C]

This is where our Christmas tree is going to go.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh.

[Madison Malaga]

And picturing their life together.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly.

[C]

That's even worse.

[Madison Malaga]

After she was the one wronged and she was the one trying to rebuild.

[Caroline Turner]

And then that motherfucker did that. Men should start in jail and work their way out, period. Like, actually prove that you're not going to do some shit like that. And then you can be like, honestly. Because what is happening? Oh, my God. Okay. The wife was blindsided. She moved into the house alone. And I'll never forget the look on her face during that final walkthrough. It was this mix of pride in what she'd created and heartbreak over what it symbolized. Ah. To this day, I still don't know how she feels living there. A house that was supposed to represent a new chapter in their life together, but ended up being the final nail in the coffin of their marriage.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh. So, so sad.

[Caroline Turner]

I think she needs to write a memoir.

[C]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

Uh huh.

[Caroline Turner]

I want to say I'm shocked, but it's a man. So, like, I'm not. I also, this is funny because I can't tell you. Like, you know, some designers are kind of nervous to write in, but they'll, like, DM me or they'll see me in person and they'll tell me one of their stories. The five year house. Divorcing at the end is wildly common.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And I have worked at other firms where you work on their house forever, and then before the house is done, they Divorce. And then the house is in question in the divorce proceedings, which is like a whole other level of. Because then who pays? The designer. Can you imagine being in that situation and the clients are getting a divorce? That means that they're, like, potentially, their assets are being held. They can't pay.

[Madison Malaga]

Like, why couldn't he have told her? Like, what would that have changed at least the final decision process? Like, maybe she could have thought about herself solely, like, him not being there.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, because men are like little wimpy babies, and they don't want to have to answer for anything. So I think he probably thought, well, if I build her this house, like, she can't really be that mad. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I can still be mad. Like, what? Yeah, that's how men think.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. Then more than, like, just how the house looks, it's literally thinking of your dream life there. So you just robbed her of that.

[Caroline Turner]

If she has spent this much time and energy on this home, it's like her child.

[C]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. You're essentially wasting also five years of her life. Not just, like, in a relationship, but all this time and energy. I mean, obviously, the designer did a lot. Obviously. But clients, especially at this caliber, they also think they are doing the project because in some ways, they are. Like, they're living through it. They're paying for. I mean, I get it. It's a big. It's a big thing in life. And so for her to have, like, put all this time and energy into it, and then her husband just says, like, I'm leaving you, and here's the keys.

[C]

And the way that he went about telling the designer, like, just so you know, we're never moving in. Like, when it's over, like, pulling her.

[Caroline Turner]

Aside and being like, we're never moving in.

[C]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

Why?

[C]

I mean, at least he didn't put the designer in a worse position where the designer knew the whole time that would be.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, what would you do in that situation?

[Madison Malaga]

And why did he even need to, like, make it known to her? Like, that's so funny.

[Caroline Turner]

So. And by the way, so weird, by the way, I'm never moving and I'm leaving her ass. What do you want to do? Date the designer? Like, why are you saying that? You want a cookie? So weird.

[C]

I wonder if he went back to the girl. He was having a fair 1000%.

[Caroline Turner]

Also, you know that this man drove away in his little Porsche and was like, you know what I did? I did a good deed. Like, he. This man is thinking he did the right thing. Okay, we need to give some penance. And he's getting the penance.

[C]

Yeah, he needs to do.

[Caroline Turner]

He needs to get the penance. I hope he wraps his Porsche around a tree. And not that he dies necessarily, but maybe he walks away with like, a broken hip or something. Like a new perspective. A new perspective on life, you know? Yeah, completely. I think he needs something to sort of suck him out of his narcissism a little bit.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. I say every house that he lives in or builds after this is cursed. Like, I love that. Just cursed.

[Caroline Turner]

Perfect. Perfect. I hope that a ghost of somebody's ex wife haunts him for every home he lives in. It's a new ex wife.

[C]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

And they have a new thing they hate about him and they should write that book.

[C]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

They've all been wronged. They've all been wrong and they all hate him. They're taking it out on the man who's living in their home.

[C]

I love it.

[Caroline Turner]

That's iconic.

[C]

I love it.

[Caroline Turner]

And that needs to be like. That could be genuinely a book series. Yeah. Like every new ex wife. One's from, like, the 50s, one's from the 70s. Oh, I see it.

[Madison Malaga]

Gosh.

[C]

We'll talk offline and we'll get this.

[Caroline Turner]

We'll figure this out because that is. That's some great penance. That is really good. We love bringing the supernatural into it. Oh, my God. Are you kidding? Absolutely.

[Madison Malaga]

With joy.

[Caroline Turner]

If there's any producers listening, you know, email me.

[Madison Malaga]

It's fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, we need another project.

[C]

Caroline.

[Caroline Turner]

Sorry. I'm just kidding.

[Madison Malaga]

We don't. We don't. We don't.

[C]

But, like, maybe.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, confession number two. Let's do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. It's nearly 2am here in France and I can't sleep because I'm absolutely seething. And so I'm here to rant. Earlier tonight, my mom calls me. She casually drops into conversation that she visited a local shop in Park City where the owner was raving about one of my mom's employees homes. Now, before you picture some young, trendy design assistant, let me clarify. This employee is in her 50s, a bored housewife who took a retail job to fill her days. Anyway, the shop owner was gushing about the home. Apparently she and her friends had visited, snapping photos of every detail and marveling over how Sarah, let's call her, had curated everything on her travels. My mom's jaw hit the floor. Why? Because I'm the one who designed the house.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

Every single detail, from the furniture to the decor down to the damn dishes Sarah eats off of. I selected it all. Every designer listening right now is like, yep, been there. Okay, here's the kicker. I did it for next to nothing. Sarah is a friend of my mom's, and we agreed that I take on the project at a massively discounted rate. The idea was that this would help me break into the Park City market, giving me opportunities to visit more often while Sarah would spread the word about my work. Seems like a win win, right? Wrong. The project itself was no walk in the park. They'd initially hired an architect's design team who came up with a bland beige on beige look that was completely out of touch with Sarah and her husband's vibrant personalities. It was so off base that despite hating the plan, they still had to pay for the time spent creating it. Which, if I had a nickel for every single time we get this call that they either we're gonna work with, like, the builder design build company or a design architecture company, and that they actually pay for it. They don't design a single thing. It's just, like, very basic, but they're charged for design time. They then still have to hire us to do what they want done. So you're double in the hole for no reason?

[Madison Malaga]

Yep.

[Caroline Turner]

And that is such a bad feeling. Ugh. Oh, my God. Enter me, the knight in shining armor, swooping in to save the day and bring the place to life. I jumped through every hoop imaginable to make it work, juggling budgets, timelines, and an avalanche of indecision. Oof. That's the worst part. And yet I stuck to my ridiculously low fee because I believed in the potential for goodwill and referrals. I've done this for sure. And it's one of those live and learn things. In my experience. This is not. This person did not write this. This is coming from me. Anyone who asks for a trade or a lower price is never going to keep up their end of the bargain, ever. Period.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, gosh.

[Caroline Turner]

And they'll say, we'll tell everyone about you. You're new. Shouldn't you trade? No. No. Telling everyone about me doesn't pay my bills. And what I found is clients who ask for a discount are gonna refer.

[Madison Malaga]

People who ask for a discount a thousand percent. I just had this happen fairly recently, and they wanted a package, and it was a small hourly package, and I think it was like, 25 hours or something. It wasn't like, that much work.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

And I said, we have our packages paid up front. If they're only hourly, and not like under a certain amount. And they said to me, like, they looked me dead in the eyes and said, so if you don't do. If you don't use all the hours, what do you do? Just pocket the rest of the money? I was like, I just said back, nope, we don't pocket any money.

[Caroline Turner]

That's not how that works, you fucking lunatic.

[Madison Malaga]

Gosh, they were the most condescending people that I have ever like. Actually, I've heard of stories like it, but I've ever worked with before. And they were the ones asking for the discount after discount and nickel and diming. And we ended up ending the relationship.

[Caroline Turner]

So that's very smart of you because it doesn't get better, it gets worse. No, and I certainly have been in the experience where early on I didn't. My contract wasn't as tight and it didn't protect me. It really protected the client and I didn't have a ton of options and you would get stuck in those situations. And now my contract is airtight because we are not doing that anymore. Like, no, but it had to come from all those times where I didn't know and I, you know, I agreed to something or I did something that was like, ill advised and you know, you learn from it and it's unfortunately necessary. Like this kind of stuff has to happen for you to be able to like, stand your ground down the line. But God, it sucks when it does. It's so bad.

[Madison Malaga]

And I was already breaking my boundaries. Like, I had already met them at their house at like 7:00, so past my working hours because he's a doctor and. Yep, he couldn't do this.

[Caroline Turner]

We have a client like that.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. So already breaking my personal boundaries. I offered so many other solutions and ended up driving to them their house late at night and you're sitting me looking at me in your kitchen. And it was more than that, but I feel her.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because we have had the same experiences specifically with doctors, because I do understand their schedules are a disaster. We had clients that, like, before they hired us, they were like, we can only meet 7pm on Mondays. And we were like, no problem. We then have clients who don't mention anything and then are like, can you only meet on the weekends? That's how my schedule works. And it's like, that's not. Those are two completely different things. If you need like, special treatment. Yeah, tell us ahead of time. We'll work it into our fees and like, we'll make it work. But you can't hire someone and like I'm not coming to you on a Saturday. It's just not going to happen because this is my job, this is not a hobby. And I think that's what it is. People are like, but this is fun for you, right?

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, but cry how different it can be if you're just mindful of other people's time. Like I will do so much more for you and work with you. Oh my God, yeah, are mindful of my time.

[Caroline Turner]

If you respect me, I will do. I will go to the ends of the earth for you.

[Madison Malaga]

And that goes with like content creation too. Like that's off topic. If you're in like the DM saying like link question mark, nothing else or things like that, like source question mark, entitlement. I don't need you to like kiss up and then say please let me know. I don't need you to do that. But especially with sources, professional projects, like first of all, I'm already unsure of like how to maneuver that. And if you're just so entitled. Entitled to time and to resources also.

[Caroline Turner]

I know this is off topic, but I actually want to talk about that because I think about it all the time about sharing sources, especially TikTok. I feel like that has become like very common. Everyone wants the information on everything. And I've seen people ask in my comments, I don't respond. And then other people will be like, I can't believe she's not answering us. And it's like, babe, people pay me for this information. And look, it's one thing if it's like visual comfort light, like that's a pretty common brand. Anyone can Google it and find it. But if we've gone out of our way to find specific sources that our clients paid for that time for us to find those specific sources, I don't feel that's right to then turn over that source to someone who has invested absolutely nothing into me, into my business, into my time. And that's not to say to your point, you have to kiss up or do any of that. But like you think you can say link question mark and I'm going to give you something that took me five hours to figure out. No, completely. And that doesn't make me a gatekeeper. That's me protecting my clients investment.

[Madison Malaga]

I've thought so long and hard about this because being an interior designer on social media.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Madison Malaga]

I fully understand the argument of, well, why are you posting all of this content if you're never going to share like any of the sources. I mean, I tried to the best of my ability to understand that.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure, sure.

[Madison Malaga]

Because I do think, like, sometimes if I see something like an article of clothing or something like that, and there's, like, a thousand comments and they're not responding, but at the same time, they didn't work their butt off to find the Cory in Mexico that can make the stone.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly. Yeah. If this is from J. Crew, bitch, just tell me where it's from. But, like, if we're. If we're working on, like, very rare sources, we're. That's not. No, it's a different thing.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. And, like, I'm happy to share a paint color here and there. Like, more than happy, even. Like, sometimes wallpaper and things like that. But I also have to figure that out for myself a little bit more because I share a lot of my personal projects, and with that, I am more happy to.

[Caroline Turner]

That's what we do too. Like, I'll share everything in my personal home, no problem. Even if it's, like, something crazy obscure. But when it's your clients, that's a different. That's a different thing. And I think that's why, like, our homes are so much easier to share online because there's no one who will potentially be. And honestly, I don't even think my clients would be, like, mad necessarily. It's just that I want them to feel protected. I also think the difference is that our jobs are not influencers. We are not influencers as a job. If you are an influencer as a job, I think that comes with. You need to share things, because that's literally your entire job. If I'm putting content on the Internet for luxury clients to hire me, those clients aren't asking me sources. They're gonna hire me. So it's like, what's the. There's no incentive for me to share my sources except for to make some random person in, like, I don't know, fucking wherever. I was gonna say estate, and then I was like, I shouldn't just derogatorily say estate. So I'm anywhere. I feel like it's just a different. It's just a different thing. And the expectation shouldn't be that we have to share everything because we're not making. I'm not making money from these people. Like, TikTok brings in zero. Exactly zero dollars for us. So it's not like we're profiting off of our. Our followers and then not giving them anything. At least that's how I feel about it. But it's A very interesting conversation, because I feel like we also have worked with people who, like, will share all of that information on their own. Like, they'll say, like, this is our paint color. This is this. This is that. And then I think we have, like, a little bit more, like, room to share. But it can be tricky to figure out exactly how you talk about it on the Internet. Have you ever had clients be upset that you shared something?

[Madison Malaga]

Never. And that's why I'm like, should I share a little bit more sometimes? So I go back and forth, and we've talked to a client about it, and I asked her, I said, well, first of all, so my mom's phone number is hooked up, like, in the Instagram. Like, for some reason, we couldn't figure out how to change it. Or her personal phone number is in there. We had an old, old woman call her on her personal phone number, because one of the kitchens that we did recently, like, got a lot of traction and say, hi, there. I saw this on there. Can you please let me know what slab is in the photo?

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, this has happened to me before. I've had people cold call me and be like, where's that light fixture from?

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, my God. What are you doing?

[Caroline Turner]

No, that's crazy. That is.

[Madison Malaga]

You are breaking that.

[Caroline Turner]

That is not how this works.

[Madison Malaga]

That's not how it works at all.

[Caroline Turner]

Also, I'm Tangent City today. Did not take my ADHD medication. But you were talking about a kitchen. The. I think it's your mom's actual kitchen. The blue kitchen. That with the. So I didn't know that was yours. We love that photo. We use it all the time for inspiration. And when I was, like, doing some research, I was like, wait, that's their kitchen? I was like, I have to tell her how much we love that kitchen. It is beautiful and so well done.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, so well done. Is so incredibly talented, and that is amazing. She.

[Caroline Turner]

She really is.

[Madison Malaga]

She really is. She grew up six kids in her family. Her. They had hardly any money and just really made something for herself, and she's really, really awesome.

[Caroline Turner]

What a role model for you to look up to and also to be able to work with her. That is. I'm sure there's challenges. My mom and I would murder each other, but I feel like it's also got to be so rewarding that you did that with your mom.

[C]

You can build something together.

[Caroline Turner]

That's so sweet.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, it's really, really fun.

[Caroline Turner]

We'll circle back to that, because I do want to hear more about working with Your mom. Okay. Sorry, I mean like nine tangents. No, it's perfect that we just went down.

[C]

They're all like great, diverse things.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it's perfect. Okay. I believed in the potential for goodwill and referrals. But instead of singing my praises, this woman is out here taking credit for my work. She's telling people she collected all these items on her travels and curated the space herself. What does she gain from this? A fleeting moment of feeling cool because someone believes she has the design sensibilities of a professional. Is she planning to pitch my project as her own and start taking on design work? She has no clue how to handle the audacity is mind boggling. I am going to give one more tangent because I have a pretty good story about this and I actually don't. I almost like want to name names. I'm not going to, but I very early in my career had a friend using air quotes on that one who hired me to do a job in Detroit. And it was real city. Yeah, real city. We're not anomalous. Real city.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Bitch, I'm talking about you. And they charged me like literally next to nothing. I would take the train from Chicago to Detroit six hours and sleep on air mattress in their unfinished home. Like I was trying to do this like inexpensively and like be a good steward of their money and the whole thing. And long story short, it was a disaster. It was deep in Covid. The client was supposed to manage the contractor. She was gonna be like the project manager. Cause she didn't wanna hire anyone. It was horrible. The design was beautiful, if I do say so myself. And like it got finished, but we sort of like parted ways. I decided I didn't really value that friendship and how I was like treated in that situation. So we sort of just like. It wasn't like this crazy, fiery, dramatic thing like the project was finished. I just was like, I don't feel there's like a lot of other things that happened that I'm leaving out. But I just felt like I don't want to be in this friendship anymore.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

I then a couple months later get a link sent to my phone that the clients had pitched the project to apartment therapy and had published it all on their own, saying they did the entire thing themselves.

[Madison Malaga]

No.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep, Published it. My work. They're in the photos saying like, how they picked everything out. Uh huh.

[Madison Malaga]

I'm going to go back and find everything I need to know for sure.

[Caroline Turner]

And you will. You'll see it. Mm. And it was the biggest learning lesson of my life. And honestly, thank God it happened so early. And I remember seeing it and I was dropping Gracie off, like at her house and just being like, how is this real? There's no way that someone just did this. Like, how do you sleep at night lying like that? And I had a relationship with apartment therapy. And I was like, should I email them? Should I not? I just left it alone. I was like, karma will be back for that person.

[Madison Malaga]

A strong soldier.

[Caroline Turner]

Karma will be back for that person. But I, I still think about it sometimes where I'm like, I wonder if people reached out to her, what would.

[C]

She have gotten for that though? Just the clout because she's not a designer. Like what she just wants to tell her.

[Caroline Turner]

She just wants attention.

[C]

It's not that she's like a designer trying to get new clothes.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and that's what I'm wondering is like, what? And to her point, it's same exact thing. What is the incentive you want to be a designer now? Like, if you're taking credit for that work, there's the potential that people will hire you. And I mean, apartment therapy doesn't sound like people would hire you from there. But it's where I got all of my first clients when I first started my firm, which sounds insane, I literally posted like a rental apartment. It was my first place I like renovated or did in Chicago by myself. And it got on there and it's how I got my first couple of like, obviously very small jobs, but my first couple of clients. So they do come from there.

[Madison Malaga]

So I feel like you need to do a deep dive about that stuff sometimes because I know more about that too.

[Caroline Turner]

I should, I feel like PR and like the, the publicity side of this industry is so interesting. That's actually a good idea. We should have, we'll do an episode on that. Yeah, I know someone who works at interior design pr. Maybe we have her on.

[C]

Yeah, we have like a photography one.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, we're going to do a photography one too also.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh cool.

[Caroline Turner]

Again, another tangent, but I. This is actually maybe an interesting question for you. So there's all this discussion about like rights to a photo, right?

[Madison Malaga]

Uh huh.

[Caroline Turner]

And so the photographers, like interior photographers, we Pay them, right. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, $10,000 for a shoot. Then they make money on the photos because the publications are paying them.

[Madison Malaga]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So we're paying the photographers, they're taking photos of our work and then they're making money on top of the work that we did. And we paid them to take the photos and this is risky. People are gonna get mad about this. But, like, I have a friend who does photography not in the interior space. And she does it for, like, Panera. Cheese it. And she creates the photo. Like, she's like, the producer. She. She's an artist, essentially, and is creating the shot. We've already designed it. And that's not to say that photography isn't what captures it. It is. It's vital. But how is it that, like, they're being paid double and we don't own anything that we pay for?

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, no.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, obviously, you guys have a different. Because you own it, because you're photographing it and you're designing it. But that's the other issue, I would say, with interior photography and why you should probably shoot every project ever, forever. Because it's a system that I don't love and I don't feel like. Makes a ton of sense.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. Cause, like, I mean, they have the files. They have the raw files, and they did take that. But so much of that photo is the work that we've done.

[Caroline Turner]

And you're hiring a stylist. So it's like between the designer and the stylist, that image is created in real life, like that we did, and then the photographer capturing it, editing it. Like, to be clear, I'm not minimizing a photographer's role. They are crucial. But it's just, like, why is it that we're spending tens of thousands of dollars to do these shoots for them to get paid off of the work that we did? Because they couldn't get paid for it if they did, if we didn't pay them to shoot it.

[Madison Malaga]

Totally. So what do we feel like the solution is? Like, having to give, I don't know, credit of that.

[Caroline Turner]

That's what I mean. I feel like, at the least, it's like some sort of. Or like, you know, the photographer creates, like, a pot as, like, a credit for your next shoot or something. Like, if they got paid from your work, they essentially. That incentivizes them to work with you again. Because if your work is good enough to get paid to be in a magazine, it's, like, mutually beneficial. Beneficial. And so I feel like. So that's my. We're gonna bring on all that to say we're bringing on an interior photographer, hopefully, to talk about all of this, because I find it so, like, interesting and a difficult part of this industry. I just thought, as a photographer, you would find that interesting because it's definitely something that I feel like is a discussion right now for sure. Totally. Okay, what does she gain from this? A fleeting moment of feeling cool because someone believes she has the design sensibilities of a professional? Is she planning to pitch my project as her own and start taking on design work she has no clue how to handle? The audacity is mind boggling. I know this happens in our industry. Designers don't always get the credit they deserve, even when clients pay full price. But in this case, where I worked for practically nothing, on the understanding she'd spread the word. It feels like a slap in my face. Now I'm stuck. Calling her out doesn't solve anything. It's hearsay, and she's clearly not someone who values integrity. What's worse is that I still need access to the house to photograph my work. And if she decides to block me, I'll have no documentation of the project at all. She can go on spinning her lies and no one will be the wiser. Oof. So here I am, venting into the void. Thank you for listening to my rant. I have no idea how to handle this situation. Maybe it's a lesson learned, but honestly, it just sucks. It does suck. Like, absolutely. It sucks like that. There's no minimizing that.

[C]

I mean, what would you do if you.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it's so difficult because I feel like, well, Madison, I'll let you answer first and then what would you do in this situation?

[Madison Malaga]

If I was living lavish because of the money that I had just got paid from that project and I was like, hallelujah, I'm done. I don't care what they say because I was fairly compensated, I wouldn't care. I mean, obviously it would still bother me and, like, I wouldn't want to work for them anymore because that is incredibly frustrating. But not being fairly compensated for it is like the double whammy of, like, you weren't compensated and then they're going to take credit for it. But if it's a project that you're proud of, and it seems like they were proud of it, I would keep peace to photograph it because that is so important and at least you need to get something out of it to absolutely feel okay. But I would secretly be so mad the entire time. So pissed.

[Caroline Turner]

So pissed. Yeah, I would. Well, there's a couple ways that this could happen. One, I would say contracts are so important. So, like, even if you're very, very, very, very, very early on and you do want to do trades, at least have a document that says for X amount of work, you will be doing X whatever that is. So there's something I feel like obviously that's like a little bit too far gone and it's fine. It's clearly happened to all of us. Like I certainly didn't have in my contract, we didn't have in our contract until like a couple months ago that people couldn't take credit for our work because we didn't think people would do that. So it was like we didn't think we would need to say that. Like, you have to get burned first for. You have to get burned first. Exactly. I agree with you. I would say keep the peace and take photos if you can. I would try to negotiate payment of the photos. Like if you know this person well enough and she doesn't know that you're upset, maybe you say something like, we're both so proud of this project. I know we like want it to be in a magazine. Since you didn't pay me anything, I have no profit from this project. Do you want to split the cost of the photos or something to that effect?

[Madison Malaga]

I love the idea.

[Caroline Turner]

So that way, because she's still going to say she did it for sure. So at least she's paying for something. And then work your ass off to get it published. Even if it's locally, even if it's in a local magazine. Because I promise you, those people who she was talking to will open that magazine and realize, oh, she didn't do this. That's the best revenge is like making sure everyone knows without having to say it. Actually, this was my project. And when you do the press explain all the different details that you did and it will become clear. I feel like that is more embarrassing and the like being the bigger person. But still winning is how I would see it.

[C]

And you don't have to confront her directly.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, exactly.

[Madison Malaga]

And you're not keeping the piece for her, for her benefit and to make her her sleep better at night, you're keeping the peace for you, for you in the beginning to be able to get absolute out of it. Get the photos out of it.

[Caroline Turner]

Also if I can recommend, even if you don't, like, if she won't pay for a photo shoot and because you didn't get paid, you don't want to take walkthrough videos of every single space. Those for us have been a bigger return on investment than any photo shoot to date we have started. Sometimes not photographing our projects and doing like talk through walkthrough videos of each space instead. Because those are what clients respond to.

[Madison Malaga]

Like the sexuality status photos are Even.

[Caroline Turner]

Really doing anything, really. I feel like that's how so many people. Like, it's one of those, like, here's a living room. Here's the kitchen. Here's whatever. It's first of all, really easy to do. Like, you don't have to hire a stylist if you don't want to. Since it's moving, you can kind of style yourself and people. Also, it will explain everything that you really did. Like, if you're taking walkthrough videos, you can say, okay, and so we picked out this at this stone yard, or we did this. I thought this color would be perfect here. And that is, like, the best way to say I did this without having to go to her and say, I know that you're saying that you did this yourself. I think it. Here's what I'll say, because, again, this has happened to us before. Even though this is a person who does not respect you, it might not be as malicious as it seems, because there are people who, even though they hire someone, they feel like because they picked out of three options, they did it themselves. And that's never. You're never gonna be able to change the way they think about that.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Because that's their reality. Whether it's true or not, that's their reality. So there's no talking that person out of it.

[Madison Malaga]

Totally. This has happened to us so many times.

[Caroline Turner]

It's so infuriating. I had a designer, like, literally my first couple months of business, I was freelancing, and she was like, have clients are taking credit for your work yet? And I just looked at her, and I was like, no. And she was like, they will. And she was so right. She was beyond right.

[Madison Malaga]

They will.

[Caroline Turner]

And you know what? At some point, having, like, your own channel sounds stupid, but your own way to show your work is the best plan, I think, is create a pipeline for you to say, I did this. This is what I did. Here's all the custom design elements. And if someone reaches out to her and thinks she did it and she wants to take on a project, it is her funeral. Because as we all know, there is no way this woman has any clue what we actually do as a job. She just knows what we're showing her. So let her do it and let her fail, because she will.

[Madison Malaga]

Every time I see, like, influencers or celebrities, post their homes, and of course, post your home, do it, but. And they're not giving any credit to the designer, I. I get a little hard.

[Caroline Turner]

And I can tell. I can tell there's one specific influencer I'm thinking of that just built a house in Arizona. In Arizona. I'm thinking of the same one, like, went through that made this whole video going through the house being like, I did this and I did this, and I thought this and I thought this in the way that I knew that there were sources that only designers have access to in that house. And as I'm watching this, I'm being like, your designer did that. Your designer. Like, there is literally no way. But in the comments, people are like, this is the most beautiful house I've ever seen. And she's saying, thank you. It's like, that is a whole other level of. But what's interesting is that, like, if they mention you, they see it as, like, that is a form of payment. We've paid you, so we're not going to mention you for free. Which, you know, I think is. I get. I get where they're coming from, because to be fair, like, Clorox will pay them $30,000 to do a brand deal or whatever it is. But also, you shouldn't need. Do you know what I mean? In order to fairly credit what is essentially art, you should just want to do that, Right?

[Madison Malaga]

Well, that's what it is. It's art. It's like, I fully understand that payment has been paid and they will get inquiries and clicks on their profile for that happening.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure.

[Madison Malaga]

It doesn't sit right with me.

[Caroline Turner]

Me either. It doesn't sit right with me. Obviously, I'm not an influencer, but I think about, like, super famous people, like, not Internet famous people, like Sarah Jessica Parker. She, like, does not, you know, she, I'm sure, pays her bills in full. Her house tour you walk through. She names every single person that did something in that home.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, amazing.

[Caroline Turner]

This artist did this. This wallpaper is from F. This person did this. And like, that, to me, is a sign of wealth. You don't need anything from anybody. And you're willing to credit. Like, don't you just want to be that person? Whether you're giving them more than they probably shared or not? It's good karma.

[Madison Malaga]

Totally. Like, that designer is probably making so much less than her.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And to say, like, oh, so and so artist did this mural in my bathroom. I mean, that could change that artist's life with a sentence out of your mouth that cost you nothing. And in that way, if we're not looking at it like a, I paid you so you don't get anything else. If we're looking at it from Like a human to human perspective. It feels pretty obvious to give people the credit they deserve.

[Madison Malaga]

And we're not like, saying every time you post a photo of your house or every time you do a video and the house is in the background, you have to do something. No, but it's like, there's a clear line, like, of you're gonna do a whole home tour or just certain tours in certain areas and not mention anything.

[Caroline Turner]

And the thing is, we always talk about it how. And maybe this is because none of us are rich, so we, like, don't know how the super wealthy think. But if you hire a designer that is a luxury service, why aren't you telling people that you did that? Like, why is it that it's better if you do it yourself? In my mind, hire, like, I'm thinking Architectural Digest. Like celebrity walkthroughs. You hear them say their designer's name like, a thousand times. Although there is one walkthrough I'm thinking of who. I know the firm that did it, and one of my friends works for that firm. And the whole walkthrough, she doesn't mention their design firm at all. And that specific walkthrough. Yeah, I think that specific walkthrough, like, blew up on the Internet. You probably know which one I'm talking about. Dakota Johnson's house that was, like, fully designed by Pearson Ward, and they did, like, every little single miniature detail, and she does not talk about them one single time.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, my gosh. There's actually a few that don't. And that's like, I'm so. I guess they're so.

[Caroline Turner]

Especially because it's like, if you're showing your home, the privacy is gone.

[C]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

So it's like. Cause I could get, like, maybe you don't say who your designer is, because a firm that I know of works with, like, extraordinarily like, a list celebrities on almost all of their jobs, and half of them, they can never mention it ever even happened because that celebrity doesn't want their. Any information about their home at all for anyone to know. And that makes more sense to me.

[Madison Malaga]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

But if you're, like, on Architectural Digest, showing your home and you're not talking about the designers who created it.

[C]

Crazy.

[Caroline Turner]

That's a little bit. It's poor form, in my opinion.

[Madison Malaga]

Fully.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Like, bad manners at the very least. Okay, well, I'm very sorry that that happened to you. And we're. We live and we learn, and even though it sucks, it sucks. I think in a year's time, you'll realize I'll never let that happen again. And sometimes that's necessary. There's so many times in my career where something has happened and I'm like, well, at least I know that will never happen again. I can ensure that I don't do that again or that doesn't. So, you know, maybe that's a little bit of a silver lining. Put it in your contract to, if anyone's ever talking about your work, that they have to credit you. That's what we just did. And I'm hopeful that it will at least, whether it changes behavior or not, it will at least make them think twice. So let's give some penance for her. Who are we giving penance to? Maybe the client or maybe the designer.

[Madison Malaga]

The client.

[Caroline Turner]

The client. Okay, let's do it.

[Madison Malaga]

Or you do the designer, I'll do the client.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay. Oh, I love that. I love that. I love that. Okay. Penance for the designer is to hire an attorney and get a airtight contract. That would be my recommendation.

[Madison Malaga]

Love that. And penance for the client would be one of her friends or acquaintances asked her to design their home, and she gets through the beginning of the process and realizes how hard it is, and she can. She cannot proceed.

[Caroline Turner]

I think that is poetry. That is beautiful. I love that. I love that. Okay, now we're gonna segue into some questions. All right? As a solo business owner, how do you know when it's the right time to hire help?

[Madison Malaga]

I'm probably not the best to speak on that.

[Caroline Turner]

I can if I need to.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, you go.

[Caroline Turner]

I. Well, I would say I always hired earlier than I technically should have. Like, I'm more going to give an answer based on work than I am based on finances. Because I would say I was not hiring when we could afford it. I was hiring it when we needed the help. Take that with a grain of salt, because it, you know, we took out a business loan and the whole thing. But my sort of, like, life's motto has always been, you have to be prepared to get lucky. And so I felt like I needed someone on my team. So that way, if someone approached me about a larger project, I would already be set and I wouldn't be hiring when the project is trying to start. So my first, like, six months of business, I was alone. And then I went into a Facebook group and basically was just like 10 hour a week virtual assistant. And I found someone who was in LA. We started out at 10 hours a week. She's now worked for me for four years and is like, runs the back end of my business. So I think you can do it in small ways. It's also nice to sort of ramp up into being a boss. And I don't say that in the girl boss way. I say that in, like a. How you manage people. Sometimes taking on someone that's 10 hours a week gives you a really good trial. Like, you get to try out managing people, and then it's not all the time, constantly. I feel like early on, when I hired full time, it was hard because I was having to make sure they always had something to do and I knew what I was doing. So you have to get over that hump a little bit. And there's a learning curve with taking people on. But I do think if you feel like I am underwater and I cannot do this any longer, whether the finances make sense or not, hire, and then you'll figure out how to get their money from somewhere. The other thing is that because when I first hired, we were doing flat fees, so I wasn't accounting for everyone. Like, I was so young and I didn't know what I was doing. But if you're charging hourly, it's pretty easy to bring someone on because then as long as they're billing at least 50%, like they're paying for themselves, or they should be based on, like, how you're what you're paying them versus what you're billing for. If they're 50%, they should be paying for themselves. So that's another, I would say, indication of when, if you feel like you have enough work for someone to that all to be billable makes sense. To bring someone on would be my. My two cents. But I don't think there's ever like a. People say it's never the right time to have kids. I kind of think it's like the ne never the right time to hire. Because if you wait until you have the right job to hire, you're too far behind because that person is not settled in. They don't know, like, you haven't. I feel like you need someone on your team for a couple of months before they're ready to, like, be turned over to a client to, like, work with that client. And to be clear, I'm always like, the lead of all of our projects. But we've now gotten to a point where Gracie takes four projects, Grace takes four projects. They, like, you know, are the owners of those projects. And then Sam and I manage all eight with them. And that took so long to get there, but it's now like genuinely changed my life. So I would say the first, like couple years of having employees, especially if you're growing year over year, is. It can like be some painful growth, but then you hit your stride and you're able to take on 10,000 square foot, massive jobs, no problem. And honestly, maybe not even up till then have all the salaries been covered, but you're able to like, okay, now we're finally making money because we've had all of this groundwork already laid.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, I think you said that perfectly. No notes.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you. Thank you. I don't know, sometimes I feel like I black out when I'm answering these questions. So who knows what I said, but okay. How do you effectively manage your workload while also dedicating time to social media? Right now we don't dedicate much time at all, but I think we need to start, but I don't know where. What do you think? I feel like this is a good question for you.

[Madison Malaga]

I think having a dedicated person for that, if you can, is awesome. And even if that's not their main job, having that be just a part of their job is fantastic. But also so much work can come through social media. I'm sure we all know that now. It's not a secret anymore that I think it's something that I would put first. Like, it's, it's very powerful for networking and getting some incredible clients. I think for me it has to be part of my daily work hours. Like I have found myself for a long time, like working my normal job, like 8 to 5 or whatever. And then I would come home and be replying to comments, replying to sources, creating the content from like 5pm to, you know, 10pm and lately I'm putting out a lot less content because I'm choosing to not have all of my evenings ruined, which is okay, but I just dedicate about two hours each day to responding to DMs and responding to things rather than having that go over to the time where you need your personal time now.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. And an actual break is like necessary. I think sometimes we're like, oh, I'm just sitting on my T, like watching tv. I can just do this. But the more you force yourself to work, even if it doesn't feel like work, there's no time to recover and be better the next day. Yeah, I completely relate. I think you're right. The first thing you said, I mean, we didn't have really a true social media presence until we hired someone for that job. They don't work Full time, but, well. And Morgan is our marketing director for CTI and also does the podcast, so she is doing socials for both sides. So we now have someone, obviously Morgan, our angel, who does all of it. But even when I first started, we hired someone at like $2,000 a month, which is a lot of money. But the return on investment was like 400%. It was insane. Like we probably, we paid her $24,000 over the lifetime of a year and it probably brought in like a million dollars worth of work just from social media. Do you feel like you're getting like 90% of your clients from social media?

[Madison Malaga]

Probably, yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

That's us too about that.

[Madison Malaga]

And I think people love to see like walkthroughs and just stuff like that and the process of things. So whenever we're at a job site for a couple hours, just checking things out or doing things like take photographs, take more than you think you'd need, take videos, even if it's just like your contractors talking to each other and it's a little bit more real life. And then share that. That gets people interested in the projects. It gets people knowing how you work. And it's less difficult on you because you're not spending hours and hours putting a video together, which I still think is fantastic. That's still what I do as well. But if you can share the in between and the stuff that you don't have to edit and make as much, I think that is also valuable content.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like we find that it's more. Our less edited, less produced content is what does better anyway. And so which it is interesting. Cause I feel like there's two platforms that respond differently and like the potential with TikTok going away, I'm literally gonna kill myself. Like, I feel like we got like we've been trying, we've put all of our eggs really in the TikTok basket and we still like work and do stuff on Instagram. But it's just that the response on TikTok has made so much more sense. And I found that most of our clients are finding us on TikTok, not Instagram, which is crazy because there will be like a 55 year old who found us on tik. Like it's not even that these are like young demos or anything. So it's. I think it's interesting because you're right. I think the behind the scenes, like the less produced can really do well. And then sometimes Instagram wants to see things like a little bit more polished and Finding your footing and at least for us, focusing on one and then building a following and then translating that following to another platform was really helpful. Like being able to focus on and not trying to do like all the different platforms in different content on every platform because that then becomes a full time job. Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

And like, like you said how you sometimes will just do walkthroughs at the end of the project.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Madison Malaga]

And have someone record you and just talk about this. Well, I did this here and I did this because of this. To me. And maybe you'd be catering a little bit more towards designers or probably catering more towards people who actually are looking for a designer in that moment, which is fantastic. But that doesn't take that much extra time.

[Caroline Turner]

It really doesn't.

[Madison Malaga]

You've already staged, you've already set the place, someone has already come by. Do it, you know, after the photographer leaves or something like that, where you're not spending so much extra time. But just doing that walkthrough, walking around, seeing everything, talking about it is so valuable and gives you such great content.

[Caroline Turner]

I completely agree. And that's, yeah, so easy. The last tangible thing I'll say is I just got those meta glasses. Have you heard of them? They're like no blue light glasses that video and photo and record. They are like, I feel like a spy kid. Like they're crazy, but. And I look like Weezer. Like they're not cute, but I'm obsessed. Because literally you put them on and there's like a little button right here. I wish I had them. I'd put them on a little button right here and it records everything out of your glass. Like there's a little camera on the glasses. So you can be like in a meeting, talking and recording and it will like get everything that you see. So if you're like, it's only you, you don't have an assistant. Something to that effect. We use it a lot for meetings. Like I'll record everyone talking. So that way I know that like, especially if there's some sort of like contentious construction conversation or something, it's helpful to have on camera. But I think from a content perspective, you're still doing your whole meeting and literally all it is is like click, click, click, click. Like it's very easy. So if that, if you don't have the funds or the time to hire someone to do social media, that can be kind of like your little sidekick. Because I do really like it when I have to go to meetings by myself. Myself. Our firm's tagline is interiors that make you feel. So what is something that made you feel in the last week or so?

[Madison Malaga]

This past weekend, my mom and I worked extra hours like we were just talking about to not do on weekends. And we're at a. A job site Saturday and Sunday, and we looked back at everything. It's turning out so good, and, oh.

[Caroline Turner]

My God, that's so exciting.

[Madison Malaga]

What is making me feel is interiors. Like, just thinking that my mom and I, up in our little office, like, just thought, oh, what if we did this here? And what if we put this here? That. That is turning to something that, like, we're really proud of. Is so special and so special that you get to create. That is really cool.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and to be able to do that with your mom is so, so special. I mean, I think that is, like, such a gift.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah, it really is. And I think everyone who is in the design industry, like, I'm continually impressed with everyone. Yeah. It is art that you can just take something, like, in your head, and I agree, like, put it out there.

[Caroline Turner]

And it goes from in your head to in the world. That is like a. I sound like a narcissist, but it is really crazy when you walk through a space and you're like, this has been living in my brain, and now it's here. I'll get so excited. We got paint samples the other day on a construction site, and I squealed, and the contractor was like, haven't you seen, like, a thousand paint samples before? And I'm like, yeah, but don't you want your designer to be this excited about these paint samples? Like, this has been living in my head, and now it's here. It's like magic. It really is. And it's. We're lucky we get to do this.

[Madison Malaga]

It's kind of a private and, like, special thing, because, yes, people can admire the beauty at the end, but no one knows the literal blood, sweat, and tears that it took to get you there.

[Caroline Turner]

It is so personal.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah. You're just sitting back and being like, damn, I did that.

[Caroline Turner]

I did that.

[Madison Malaga]

I think that's really, really cool and special.

[Caroline Turner]

It's crazy. I know. I agree. It happens when I go to clients houses, and, like, they're living in the house and their kids are in the kitchen, and, like, they live their lives in that home. I have children talking about it, which is so dramatic, but, like, it's so sweet and tangible. Like, it's like, I affected this family of six's life, and this is where all their childhood memories are going to be. And this is how they're gonna remember their life. That could, like, almost make me cry. That's so special.

[Madison Malaga]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

And it's kind of sacred where the.

[Madison Malaga]

Details that go into different things and just like a bathroom vanity. My mom and I were talking about recently, just the amount of details in a bathroom vanity or decisions.

[Caroline Turner]

You've seen those videos where it's, like, all the decisions in one photo that I love those because it's like, trim, shape, trim size, trim color. Like, there are four decisions on trim alone. Like, it is. And people have no idea the amount.

[Madison Malaga]

Of detail, kit, hardware, placement. There's just so many. And just to. Yeah. Put it out there in the world is special.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. That's so special. Oh, my God. Well, I can't wait to see. I feel like I've been following along what you guys are doing lately also. That red marble is, like, living in my dreams. So good.

[Madison Malaga]

It is so good. I can't.

[Caroline Turner]

Is that gonna be a commercial space? Is that what it is?

[Madison Malaga]

That's a plastic surgery office. Ooh.

[Caroline Turner]

We're doing a med spa, and it has been so fun. I feel like that's the best type of commercial because it's like, oh, my gosh. It's for women. So I love designing for women, and, like, they get it, and they want it to be, like, luxurious. I can't wait to see. That's gonna be so good.

[Madison Malaga]

She's so fun. The surgeon that we're doing it for, we did her personal home, and then now we're doing this, and she is. Oh, fun, chaotic and eclectic and very talented.

[Caroline Turner]

So it is the best kind.

[Madison Malaga]

Really cool.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I cannot wait to see. I can't. I mean, you'll obviously have to photograph it, and then we'll have to have you come back on and talk about it, because I think that would be fun. Yay. Amazing.

[Madison Malaga]

Awesome.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, thank you so, so much for being on. This was so fun. I had the best time. Where can we find you? Where should everybody look? To see your beautiful work.

[Madison Malaga]

Oh, you're nice. I'm on Instagram and TikTok adisonmalaga, and then my mom and I's joint Instagram is CM Interiors.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Madison Malaga]

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it was amazing.

[Madison Malaga]

I love what you're doing in this space.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you so much. It means so much to me that people like you are listening and love it. I am so grateful, and I'm so grateful to all of you for listening. Thank you so much. Don't forget. Please submit a crazy design story. We may read it out. Until then, see you next week and peace be with you. Bye.