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Construction Leaders Podcast
Beyond the Blueprint: Navigating Workplace Culture and Building Trust
00:23:07
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- [00:03]
A
Welcome everyone to episode two of the Construction Leaders podcast. If you've been following the podcast, you've probably noticed that one of our recurring topics is workforce development. Today we're going to focus on yet another key workforce topic, and that's organizational culture and trust. In today's fast paced work environment, the success of any organization hinges on its culture. But what does that really mean? We'll explain the impact of transactional and toxic workplace cultures and explore how trust shapes collaboration, innovation and employee engagement and why it's more critical now than ever. Joining us for this discussion is Jonathan Cinelli. Jonathan is host of the People First Leadership podcast, partner of the Construction Life podcast, and has a background as an electrician, project management professional and associate certified coach. He spent decades in the construction industry, leading teams and managing major projects, and now teaches human centric leadership to create healthier, more effective workplaces. Welcome to the podcast, Jonathan.
- [01:12]
B
Thank you, thank you. Wonderful. Thanks for having me here, folks. It's great, it's exciting and I've been looking forward to this. So thanks for making it happen.
- [01:19]
A
So why don't you start off by introducing yourself a little bit more to our listeners and maybe let us know how you got started doing the work you're doing now.
- [01:28]
B
Sure. No easy or short answer that I am passionate about human beings. I've known that since I was a young person. I. I found myself around lots of children, around lots of human beings, and watching people excel. And as I pivoted through my construction career as an electrician project manager and worked my way up the ranks to leading teams and hundreds of millions of dollars of electrical works, I found that my passion for people and projects really started to come together and that enabled me to really have the self awareness for folks around me. And I started to question why was it that projects that were supposed to be successful didn't end up being successful by all financial metrics and by all measurable metrics that organizations would put in place and vice versa. And it came down to the people. And when I learned that when you connect with folks at a different level and actually care about the human beings in front of you, everything changes. Connections form, trust emerges, culture shifts. And so as I pivoted, I learned all of that and I started to question the way that things have always been done traditionally in most situations within the construction space. And I thanked everybody for my time and experiences there. And left. Yeah, so I wrote a couple books and I left the industry and I started to question everything that I knew. And I got into coaching Leaders and taking a stand for the folks doing the work and organizations that actually care about people and teaching people how when you leave a human centric approach, everything changes and it starts at the top. And from there I've expanded that to teaching organizations, teaching unions. Today is speaking at conferences and coaching, and that's where I'm at today.
- [03:08]
C
I wanted the crowd to get a sense of who you are and your background is what you were giving us. But we tried to have you on the podcast earlier and you had to delay our podcast recording because of a particular reason. I was hoping you might share your story with us.
- [03:24]
B
Yeah, sure. Of course we will, Nick. It's a tremendously humbling story. And we learn as human beings how to pivot through uncertainty, and this really speaks to it. I was heading down to Georgia to speak at the Project Management Institute chapter down there. And the day before I left, I was called and said, listen, the conference is canceled because of Hurricane Helen that was going through okay, yet I was still going down there. And I said, you know what? I'm still going to meet down there with the president of the organization and we're just gonna, we're gonna chat and hang out. So I still went down. When I got there, I had no idea what to expect. Right. I'm coming from Toronto, Canada, hurricanes. You can see all the pictures you want, all the videos you want. I had no idea what to expect, and I went down there to help and just show up as a human being. And I was humbled very fast. Some of the things that I saw, like when you talk about destruction, I've never seen so many bobcats or excavators just moving sand off the streets, cars in trees, homes destroyed. We have a family home down there, and the demographic down there is 80 plus years old. And these folks here have lived there for so long, they've got nothing left. The houses had five plus feet of water in them. Everything, everything, everything, everything was just different. And I guess the biggest thing is the human connection. I literally remember getting there and there's no power, by the way. There's no power, there's no Internet. You're dead to the world. So you're literally running up and down the street. Who's got a bottle of water because it's 90 degrees outside? Who's got a loaf of bread? Who's got a screwdriver? You connect with people really fast. And you know what? I just to bring this all together. Nothing else matters in life at that point in time. Nothing else matters. It was like how can I just continue to show up and give and be of service for others and respecting, by the way, that I have to look after myself as well, because if I'm not whole and complete and not looking after me, then I am not able to be of service. So I found myself down there for quite some time and that's the reason that we've pivoted. So thank you for that. It's humbling.
- [05:38]
C
Not a problem. Absolutely. I admire that you went down there to help and contribute to that. And I think it leans very well into the kind of conversation we're trying to have today with you. And that's about like toxic cultures.
- [05:51]
B
Sure.
- [05:52]
C
You spent decades in the construction industry witnessing its evolution. What key factors do you think have contributed to toxic culture and construction and how has that impacted productivity with employees being.
- [06:06]
B
The key factors are pressures and expectations and unset boundaries. So oftentimes we come into projects and the boundaries and expectations are not vividly clear across the board. And that creates a lot of tensions, it creates a lot of mistrust, it creates a lot of mistreating of folks. The way you communicate, the way you show up and then it. And then it's down. The pretty management metrics which are seemingly easy, but it gets down to things are driven by profits and timelines. And what does that all really, when you unpack all that is the expectations and boundaries. Here's what I expect, except it's not fully communicated because the information is not provided, it's not transparent, and then it flows downstream. And the folks doing the work, they're burnt out. So people are not on the same page, right? So I think here's there's three things, right? Information, autonomy and contribution. People are not on the same page because we're not giving them all the transparent information. Jonathan, I want you to build a building. Okay, cool. I was simplified. Jonathan, I want you to build a shelf. Great. But I haven't been given the proper specs or hey, I want an eight foot shelf that's two feet deep, that can support £300. That's very different than saying to somebody, build me a shelf because you want me to build your shelf. I'll take a two by six, put it on the wall and say, here's your shelf information. Right? That information is not transparent across the board. So then what happens is the autonomy is not there for the folks either leading the projects or doing the work. Right? And this can come from the client top down as well. The autonomy is not there to make the decisions. And then if the economy's not there, when people feel like they're not contributing or they're not growing, then they're effectively dying. And if people are dying, sort of your projects.
- [07:42]
A
So, Jonathan, in the intro, I mentioned transactionalism, but I'm wondering if you can explain that a little bit. And what do you mean by transactionalism and toxicity in an organization and maybe what we can do to change that.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah, sure. So let's talk about transactionalism. One of the things that we're really seeing is folks within the construction industry right now are not sticking around, right? And it's really hard to bring folks into the industry. Transactionalism. And then what happens is that for the folks on the site doing the work, the folks in the offices doing the work, something happens and it twists in the wrong way. They check out and they either leave or they check out and stay. But transactionalism is they're going to jump ship, they're going to go somewhere else. They're going to leave the industry altogether. Because you're going to say, I didn't sign up for this exhausting transactionalism across the board. It also starts at the top down, right? Things like loyalty and trust. Even from a. A client perspective, it's so hard to run a business right now because that loyalty is out the window. If I was working with somebody for 20 years, now they're shopping around now things are very different. So that leads to the toxicity, that leads to the automatic negative thought. It's really easy to become negative, right? So people walk around with that kind of stuff. This is awful. This is terrible. And then it just becomes destructive behavior. So how do you combat that? Oh, my gosh. It starts with connection, right? And how do you connect with somebody? You be vividly present. And for me, that means when I'm with somebody, I am wholeheartedly with them. I'm not looking over their shoulder, waving to the person behind me. I'm not checking my phone. I'm letting nothing derail our time together. And I'm setting the boundaries. Hey, listen, Nick, I'm gonna use an example. Nick, I got 20 minutes with you. Nothing's gonna derail our time together unless something comes through on my call code. I have a very specific call code that somebody needs to get in touch and they know how to. I'm present with you. That forms connection, right? And once I'm connected to somebody, the world starts to open up. I understand who this person is, a human being, what makes them tick, what makes them think. How do I Help them succeed. Trust is formed and trust is the currency. Because when trust is present, people will do anything for you. And that shifts the whole culture and the whole conversation.
- [10:06]
C
Jonathan, I just want to make sure I got this straight. You have a bat line at your house so that people could call you directly and interrupts or whatever you do. It's the bat phone so that the mayor can answer the. Just place the call to Jonathan anytime and get ahold of you. And how do I get that number?
- [10:25]
B
So it's a call code and I'll share it with you. The more I share it with you because it just. Nobody abused it and that's all I ask.
- [10:31]
C
So I have a call, don't share it.
- [10:33]
B
No, this is very important. I think that this is. I share this with everybody and with an understanding again, boundaries and expectations. It's for mission critical purposes. Please don't abuse it. If I'm with you, Nick, my phone's in my pocket on do not disturb unless I'm gonna say, listen, I'm expecting a call from a doctor or I'm expecting to use my wife. I'm expecting to call from my wife. Right. My wife knows that if I'm with somebody, I'm not going to answer. If it's mission critical, she calls, hangs up calls, hangs up calls, hangs up three back to back times. That to me is my bat call. It's like, excuse me for a second, Nick, that's my call code. I need to address this to make sure everything's okay. I'll call and say, is everything cool? I'm with Nick, can I call you back? That's how it shows up for me.
- [11:16]
C
I love it.
- [11:17]
B
And that has changed the game for me.
- [11:19]
C
It is important. I think you're right. I think that's very important to know. That's that great boundary example that you were putting out there.
- [11:26]
B
Yeah. So whatever call code is for folks, I'm sharing mine. No, please don't abuse it. But even my children know everybody knows this. So the foreman that if I'm working with a form, if I'm working with a client, I will disclose that. And guess what happens is right then they know to. So a couple of things happen is people call you less because they solve the problems themselves before calling you. And then what happens is some people may even implement their own call codes to say, hey, I noticed this worked for Jonathan. Maybe it serves me well too.
- [12:01]
A
So that leads into my next question. Actually, you've already started talking about it and just how to show up for your People. I've heard people say we're not in the construction business, we're not in the design business, we're in the people business. This. And you already started talking about it a little bit, just showing up for each other. And you mentioned a few key steps and I'm wondering if you could just highlight those again and reiterate those. The presence, connection, trust and culture and how we foster each of those.
- [12:34]
B
Sure. And Carly, to answer your question, it's all about people. Every interaction we have is about people. We're human beings first. Without people, there's no construction. Without construction, we have no buildings. Without no buildings, we're not having these conversations today. So how far do you want to go down the hole, folks? Coming back to those things, Presence, right. So I disclosed what it looks like to use your phone as a tool and put it in your pocket instead of a vice. I disclosed what that looks like. Right. Like it's many people lean into their phones, put them away. When you're with somebody, the other thing for presence is take a temperature and what's going on around you. Right. If you walk into a scenario and you can see that it's amplified and heated, have the self awareness to become curious. Right. Nick, I'm going to use you again as an episode. Thank you, Nick. I'm coming to this situation. Like I noticed that the energy is amplified. What am I getting into? What's going on, what's really buzzing around? And you start asking thought provoking questions and you lead with the what's and the hows and become part of somebody's world rather than coming in and saying why is that guy reacting like that? Construction is about traditional, is a lot about, who can I blame? And so it always said, why did this occur? Okay, back charges. Hang on a second. What's actually going on here? How did we get to this point in time? What do we need to pivot through it? And when you have the self awareness to become calm and question with curiosity, not only you're present, you're connecting with the person or the people in front of you, even in a site meeting. And that again, trust emerges. Why does trust emerge? Because with that curiosity, people understand subconsciously that Jonathan's not just here for the widget, for the profit, for the betterment of the project that organically occurs, folks, those are organic outcomes and you do all the right things, profit's going to occur, the purchase going to succeed. It's what do you do before that?
- [14:42]
C
I want to talk about the challenges. We started to go down that path a couple minutes ago. But the construction industry is facing challenges with an aging workforce and a talent shortage. We also have people in their late 60s and early 70s trying to work with 20 year olds. And how can leaders use emotional intelligence, intelligence and people skills to address the barriers and create a more sustainable and engaging work environment?
- [15:06]
B
I think the, the first thing is let's. Because it's a little bit different for every organization but we have to start with expectations. Let's define sustainability because sustainability from organization to organization may be a little bit different. Where are we heading, where are we pivoting to? And when you talk about the, the aging demographic, it's the first time in a long time, right where you've got folks in their 70s sticking around longer and then you've got young 20 year olds coming in. That's multi generational. Just the communications, just a thought processes. It starts with self awareness first of all, across the board. It's a word that we hear a lot that I invite folks to actually dig into because a lot of the things that occur can be better understood when we look internally first. What's my objective here? What do I want to walk away with? Communications break down when information is not transmitted appropriately. But that doesn't mean that this guy didn't hear me. No, he did hear you. It's just the filters and biases of. Through which he sees life or she sees life. The way that they've operated for several decades could be very different. So how do you connect with that? Again, I'm going to start with the connection. If I'm dealing with a seven year old, I really want to understand like why is he here? What is he most proud of? What's kept him here so long? Actually understand who he is as a human being. And it's not going to be easy. Some folks want to talk, many don't. So then you become hyper curious. Use those spidey senses, like pay attention to people. If Jonathan's in his 70s and he routinely at 3:00 in the afternoon steps with his right foot, left foot, right foot. I don't know. Like you could look at. Pay attention to people, right? And then ask questions about that Jonathan. I noticed that at this time of day you're always doing this. Tell me about that. Actually I'll bring a real life scenario. I was with somebody that they. He was. He's 65. So here's an example, right? And his name is Paul and I'm two floors up and I can hear him whistling and so I Said to him, paul, I love the fact you're always whistling. It makes me smile. Because when somebody's whistling it means they're just, they're in their headspace working well, they're having a great day. And his response was, holy smokes, what do you mean I whistle? I had no idea I whistled. And then we started a whole conversation about whistling. Yeah, I actually do enjoy what I'm doing. He said, do I really whistle that much? I'm like, it's not a bad thing. It's a cool like to me, that's the brain saying, I'm comfortable, I'm content. He's 65, I'm 43. There's a way to connect and our ideologies are different, our upbringings are different, our biases are different. And then, you know, the next day he's like, am I listening again? And all of a sudden we started having different conversations. And then he started telling me we were doing some repair work and I was there supporting him and he was doing things differently. And all of a sudden he started asking me questions and I started asking him questions. And then now all of a sudden you're connected. I'm not sure if that helps answer, but it's a self awareness and it's becoming curious. Human beings first, folks.
- [18:04]
A
So since Nick brought up age, I'm going to use that to pivot to this. Makes me think about my son. And a phrase that I've heard for parenting is that trust is a currency. You build trust and then you put that currency in the bank and then you need to pull from that bank when the time comes and build on that trust going off of that. Can you explain what that means? Trust is a currency and how we foster that with some guiding principles.
- [18:30]
B
Sure. Simple takeaway, Carly. And I love that. Thank you. As a parent, I can resonate with that a couple of things. It's about being real and I'll use myself as an example. I say to our children, we have a, an 11 year old and 8 year old. And there's times where I'm not at my best and I'll share that with him. Listen guys, I'm tired right now. Please hold whatever you, whatever thoughts you got, whatever question now is really not a good time or if I make a mistake, I see, you know how many times I've done this? You know how many times I've been a dad to an 11 year old and an 8 year old and how many times I'm like, this is it, this is my first time ever Never done this before, so I'm not gonna be perfect at it. And so I'm telling them when I'm having breakdowns, right? I shared this with Cassandra. Carly, just hang with me here. This is. I said, cassandra's our eight year old. And I said to her, you know what, Cassandra? I wasn't feeling 100 today. I had 50 in a tank and I went for a run. And she said, do you like running? I'm like, nope, I can't stand it. It's the worst thing in the world. I hate it. There's never a day where I get. I'm like, today I'm gonna go for a run and enjoy it. She's like, but daddy, so the more you run, I'm like, the only thing I enjoy about running center is finishing. It's the mental fortitude, it's the strength, it's the uncomfortableness to push through that, like, that's building trust. Because I'm connecting into her world. And you know what happens then? She comes to me. So she'll come to me and she'll say, oh, here's one, right? How do you connect with people? How do you foster that trust? It's three simple words, tell me more and shut up and listen. So we don't do that. We walk into scenarios and somebody's gonna come here, jonathan, I got this problem and I got a solution for you. Maybe that person doesn't want a solution. Maybe my solution is not going to solve the problem. So before I provide my unsolicited opinions and volley over those thoughts, just pump the brakes a little bit and ask for more. Tell me more about that. It sounds awful or it sounds interesting or it sounds exciting. Become hyper curious. Then folks know that, hey, listen, I'm going to come to you. I saw it too, as a parent, as a leader, doesn't matter. We're dealing with human beings first.
- [20:41]
A
So more listening than talking is what I'm hearing.
- [20:44]
B
Yes. And there's an end part to that. It's. And talk when appropriate, right? There are times, there's obviously mission critical times where you need to jump in there and solve the problem.
- [20:56]
C
You also talk about on your website, people champion.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah.
- [21:02]
C
What does it mean, people champion? Can you give a little bit of elaboration? This is really a good way to close out this podcast and ask as the last question, what does it mean to practice and how can leaders at all levels really become a people champion and engage in that role?
- [21:20]
B
It's simple for me, Nick, Stay curious about everything. When you give a damn about the people in front of you and the people and the people around you and you become hyper curious and super aware. Everything changes. This is the thing I want to leave with, with folks, is it's not about you. It never has been. It's not going to be. And when you show up and you lead with that and you walk in scenarios with a perspective of, hey, what can I learn from this person? Everything changes.
- [21:49]
C
Well, Jonathan, I want to thank you. This has been great. I know I've been taking rigorous notes, one on the bat phone and two on listen more talk when necessary because I can tell you my life asked me to do that a lot more. So that is a good thing to note. You can learn more about Jonathan and all his information on his website. That's jonathansinelli.com J O N A T H A N C I n e l I.com and you can also check out his People first podcast. It's right there on that webpage. So thank you for joining us today, Jonathan. We appreciate all your insights and we hope to hear from you again soon.
- [22:26]
B
My pleasure. Thanks everybody.
- [22:28]
C
Coming up on our next podcast, Dorian Bartolis will be joining us again and bringing along Andrea Jensen, CEO of Ambition Theory, to talk about construction companies. Serious about seeing women at the top. Make sure you download or subscribe to the podcast and follow us on social media mahq. And don't forget to leave us a review with your thoughts of today's episode and let us know what you want to hear on an episode. Upcoming podcast on behalf of cma, I'm Nick Soto with Carly Trout and thank you for listening.