Constructive Conflict: Why Tough Conversations Build Better Teams

Summary

Construction Leaders Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Constructive Conflict: Why Tough Conversations Build Better Teams
Host: Carly Trout
Co-Host: Evan Hendershot
Guests:

• Chuck Ainsworth, Founder and Chief Coaching Officer, Epic Rivers Leadership
• Ed Palpit, Chief Construction Specialist, Epic Rivers Leadership
  Release Date: August 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Construction Leaders Podcast, hosts Carly Trout and Evan Hendershot delve into the often challenging but essential topic of tough conversations within the construction industry. Recognizing that difficult discussions—ranging from conflict resolution on job sites to effective feedback delivery—are pivotal moments where leadership is tested, the episode emphasizes how these interactions can strengthen team culture, enhance performance, and build trust when handled constructively.

Guests Introduction

Ed Palpit opens the conversation by sharing his unconventional journey to leadership development. A high school dropout who navigated his way through college, Ed's diverse experiences in international disaster relief and leadership consulting across various industries have equipped him with a unique perspective on managing high-stakes situations.

Chuck Ainsworth complements Ed's expertise by recounting his entrepreneurial background, having started and operated three businesses before transitioning to consulting in the construction sector. His extensive work in succession planning and leadership development for construction companies highlights his commitment to fostering the next generation of leaders in the industry.

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Common Misconceptions in Tough Conversations

Evan Hendershot initiates the discussion by asking the guests about prevalent misconceptions surrounding difficult conversations in construction.

• Chuck Ainsworth (04:14): Highlights that emotional responses, misinterpretation of information, and diverse conflict styles often derail tough conversations. Understanding these elements can transform potentially negative interactions into positive outcomes.

  "We all have different approaches to conflict... understanding that, you can approach things in a little more effective way and make your conversation a little more positive." – Chuck Ainsworth [04:14]

• Ed Palpit (04:45): Emphasizes the importance of recognizing the emotional aspect of conversations. He introduces the concept of the "four-letter F word"—Feelings—stressing that effective leadership involves addressing not just the facts but also how individuals feel.

  "Every conversation is either an opportunity to build trust or destroy it... helping people feel heard and understood... is part of the leader's job." – Ed Palpit [04:45]

Unique Approaches to Facilitate Tough Conversations

Carly Trout inquires about the distinct methodologies employed by Ed and Chuck in training leaders to handle tough conversations.

• Ed Palpit (05:56): Describes their approach as "elegantly simple," ensuring that the strategies are practical and easily applicable in real-world scenarios. He also underscores the significance of managing the internal dialogue—the conversation one has with oneself—as crucial as external interactions.

  "Our approach is so simple that you can literally explain it to you on the back of a napkin... it's about both the external and internal conversations." – Ed Palpit [05:56]

• Chuck Ainsworth (07:15): Shares his appreciation for Ed's methods, noting the necessity for leaders to look beyond surface-level interactions and understand the underlying complexities of team dynamics.

  "To be an effective leader, you got to see beyond that surface... Chuck's approach makes it simple, which is what I love." – Chuck Ainsworth [07:15]

Generational Shifts in Conversational Skills

The conversation shifts to generational differences in handling tough conversations within the construction industry.

• Chuck Ainsworth (08:46): Observes a trend where younger leaders prefer digital communication (emails, texts) but may lack strong verbal conversational skills. He highlights the importance of developing these skills to enhance clarity and effectiveness in leadership roles.

  "Having really good conversational skills, being able to say what you mean, being able to get that out clearly, I think is much tougher for the younger generation... they want to do better at that." – Chuck Ainsworth [08:46]

• Ed Palpit (09:48): Points out that younger generations seek more feedback and affirmation compared to older generations who were primarily driven by a strong work ethic. This desire for regular feedback requires leaders to engage in more meaningful and frequent conversations.

  "The younger generation, they want more feedback, they want more affirmation... they expect their boss to have that conversation with them." – Ed Palpit [09:48]

• Chuck Ainsworth (10:21): Adds that older leaders often misunderstand the feedback needs of younger employees, mistaking it for mere praise rather than constructive feedback aimed at professional growth.

  "It's feedback that they seek in order to improve... leaders of all generations need to grow in this kind of skill." – Chuck Ainsworth [10:21]

Challenges and Business Implications of Missed Conversations

Carly Trout probes into the specific challenges that arise from difficult conversations in high-stakes environments like construction.

• Chuck Ainsworth (12:06): Discusses the complexity of the "team of teams" dynamic in construction, where multiple companies and stakeholders must collaborate effectively. He notes that lack of communication can lead to significant rework, delays, and financial losses.

  "We are a team of teams... It really has nothing to do with your construction skills. It has everything to do with your conversational skills." – Chuck Ainsworth [17:13]

• Ed Palpit (14:24): Reinforces the business case for effective conversations, citing research that each missed or avoided conversation can cost approximately $7,500 due to factors like rework and safety issues.

  "You can't afford not to have these kind of conversations. Every missed conversation... costs $7,500." – Ed Palpit [14:24]

Critical Tough Conversations in Construction

Carly Trout seeks to identify which tough conversations are most pivotal within the construction sector.

• Chuck Ainsworth (15:38): Identifies interactions with owners, architects, and subcontractors as some of the toughest yet most critical conversations. He emphasizes that effective communication across these relationships is essential to prevent project delays and financial losses.

  "The toughest tend to be with owners and architects... we don't realize that we're all really all on the same team, but we're a team of teams." – Chuck Ainsworth [15:38]

Practical Tips for Navigating Difficult Conversations

As the episode approaches its conclusion, Carly requests Chuck and Ed to offer practical advice for construction leaders facing tough conversations.

• Ed Palpit (20:26): Advocates for slowing down and asking genuine questions before reacting. He recommends that leaders ask at least two questions before disagreeing or correcting someone to gain deeper understanding and demonstrate humility.

  "Before you jump in and correct them, ask two questions. These need to be genuine questions to gain a deeper understanding." – Ed Palpit [20:26]

• Chuck Ainsworth (21:17): Shares a real-life example where a superintendent realized that moving too quickly without effective communication was hindering productivity. He echoes the importance of slowing down, asking the right questions, and actively listening to improve project outcomes.

  "Slow down, ask some good questions, listen... before you just charge off and put the next piece of drywall up." – Chuck Ainsworth [21:17]

Resource Highlight: Every Conversation Matters Guidebook

Before concluding, Chuck and Ed introduce the "Every Conversation Matters" guidebook, a resource that outlines three key habits for effective communication:

1. Communication Skills: Enhancing clear and effective dialogue.
2. Accelerating Connection and Building Trust: Fostering stronger professional relationships.
3. Winning the Inner Game: Managing one's internal dialogue to improve external interactions.

They emphasize that these habits are designed to be taught concisely and implemented swiftly to fit into the fast-paced construction environment.

"Each of these habits can be taught individually and take about two hours to teach your team... It talks about the business case for conversations and we hope you'll check it out." – Ed Palpit [22:22]

Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Evan Hendershot highlights an additional resource—the Owner Survey available on the CMAA website—which provides insights into common human and communication challenges within the construction management sector.

He encourages listeners to subscribe, follow on social media, and leave reviews to continue the conversation and benefit from future episodes.

"Our recent owner survey is now available on cma.net.org bookstore... Don't forget to leave us a review with your thoughts on today's episode." – Evan Hendershot [23:00]

Final Thoughts:
This episode underscores the critical role of effective communication in the construction industry. By embracing tough conversations as opportunities for growth and team strengthening, construction leaders can enhance project outcomes, foster trust, and build resilient teams capable of navigating the complexities of modern construction projects.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Every Conversation Matters Guidebook by Epic Rivers Leadership
• Owner Survey available on CMAA.Net.org Bookstore

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Transcript

[Carly Trout]

Welcome to the Construction Leaders podcast, the show where we dig into real conversations shaping construction. I'm Carly Trout and here with my colleague and co host for today, Evan Hendershot.

[Evan Hendershot]

Hey Carly, happy to be here. Excited to talk with everybody today.

[Carly Trout]

So today we're going to be tackling a topic that every construction project leader knows all too well and that's having tough conversations. Whether navigating conflict on the job site, holding people accountable, or giving feedback that actually lands, tough conversations are where leadership is truly tested and where trust is either built or broken. In this episode, we'll explore how these challenging moments can actually become a catalyst, not a setback for accelerating connection, driving performance and and strengthening your team culture. Because in construction, it's not just about what you build, it's about how you build it. Joining the conversation are two individuals from Epic Rivers leadership. Chuck Ainsworth, Founder and Chief Coaching Officer, and Ed Palpit, Chief Construction Specialist. Chuck is a highly accomplished leadership coach specializing in high stakes situations for Fortune 500 companies, including construction, financial services and healthcare organizations, as well as large nonprofits. Ed is a seasoned consultant with over 35 years of experience helping companies across six continents solve their most significant challenges. Specializing in leadership development, succession planning and business strategy, Ed leverages his extensive background in consulting and business ownership to identify clients needs and provide long term solutions. Welcome to the podcast to Chuck and Ed.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Thanks so much, Charlie.

[Carly Trout]

So before we dig into the topic of tough conversations, which I'm excited about, can you both start us off and just introduce yourself to our listeners and maybe tell us about Epic Rivers leadership? Chuck, why don't we start with you?

[Ed Palpit]

Thanks, Carly. So what you didn't hear about me in my bio is I was a high school dropout and eventually scrapped my way through college. And I think that informs a lot of my style and approach. I tend to be a non traditional kind of guy who's taken a different path. And I got started in leadership development and international disaster relief, which is really high stakes environment, very complicated environment, where resources are slim, where there are all kind of complications, logistics and otherwise. And now we have the privilege of working with construction leaders as well as leaders from other industries. And our real area of expertise is in high stakes opportunities, high stakes challenges, where it really matters. Where leadership is in theory, but where leadership is impacting the bottom line. Where leadership is impacting really the livelihoods of many individuals. And so happy to be here and talk about this important topic.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Yeah, and I think you covered most of it, Carly. For me, I have had the privilege of starting and Operating three different businesses and when I sold those, I moved into consulting and eventually ended up at fmi, which is an amazing consulting firm for the construction industry. I had the privilege of working in the leadership area. So working with succession planning and younger leaders who are moving in to take over our construction companies, just an amazing experience for me until I retired in the end of 23. And at the end of 23 I started thinking about what's next for me and realized that Chuck is doing something pretty significant here. So just decided to join him almost as a friend more than anything. Chuck and I have been friends for 25 years. So getting to join and see what he's doing and just really be. I wouldn't say I'm working there because I'm retired. Chuck would definitely not say I'm working there, but just the privilege of working alongside him and seeing what he's doing. It's pretty cool.

[Evan Hendershot]

We're happy to have both of you here and thank you for those intros. Just to give a little background about yourselves. So let's dive right into it. What do people get wrong when it comes to difficult conversations in the construction industry?

[Chuck Ainsworth]

I think we see a lot of different kinds of difficult conversations. And my own experience is sometimes it's a lot of emotion that gets in there. Sometimes it's just accepting something at face value, not really understanding what someone is saying. And then sometimes it's just not understanding. Different conflict styles. We all have different approaches to conflict, right? And when you can understand that, you can approach things in a little more effective way and make your conversation a little more positive.

[Ed Palpit]

And Evan, what I would add is I think what we often get wrong in these kind of conversations is thinking that only the facts matter and that the only goal here is to get to the right answer. And the reality is because people involved, there's another four letter F word involved and that's what's the person feeling. And so one of the things that we help teach leaders to do is not only listen for the facts and what the person is saying, but what's being felt. That's the four letter F word. F, E, L, T. And that's what we get wrong. We forget that every conversation is either an opportunity to build trust or destroy it and break it. That helping people feel heard and understood and like their opinion and perspective matters and is also part of the leader's job. It's not just about getting to the right answer. If it was just getting the right answer, we could ask AI or use a calculator or Just look at the job plan.

[Carly Trout]

So, Chuck, to build on that, you see a lot of books out there. You see a lot of different models talking about conversational skills, how to have tough conversations. Is there something unique about your approach or how do you all go about it when you're training folks to be better with conversations?

[Ed Palpit]

Yeah, Carly, So two things I would say that's a little different about our approach. The first is that it's elegantly simple. So you mentioned there's dozens of books every year written on this topic. But instead of handing somebody a 300 page book, what we teach is so simple that I could literally explain it to you on the back of a napkin. And we think it has to be that simple in order for it to hold up to the real world. When you're standing beside a truck on a job site or over a cubicle wall and in the heat of the moment, referencing a big 16 step model or a PowerPoint deck isn't going to work. You need something so simple that you can execute it, you can use it in almost any situation and in under five minutes. So that elegant simplicity is one of the things that makes our approach different. The second thing that makes our approach different is that we focus not only on the external conversation. So the external conversation is like what we're having today between you and I, or the four of us. That's the external conversation. There's important skills for that that help that. But arguably the most important conversation we ever have is the one between our own two ears. It's the internal dialogue. And so we not only equip leaders with skills to help them with the external conversation, but skills to happen with the internal conversation.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

This is one of the things I loved about Chuck's approach so much when I retired is that I used to say to contractors, and especially young leaders and contractors that I know they didn't get into the business to have to psychoanalyze or have to worry about feelings. We love to build, we love to get stuff done. But to be an effective leader, you got to see beyond that surface. And this is what I love about the next generation coming on. Because quite frankly, my generation didn't like that approach at all. And we see such an amazing shift right now that we have to get better at seeing beyond the surface of what was said. Because usually that's just pretty simple and it's much more complex in the sense of what people are saying. But Chuck's approach makes it simple, which is what I love.

[Carly Trout]

I had a coach in high school say it's simple, but it ain't easy.

[Ed Palpit]

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Yeah, we sometimes joke that my mama told me a long time ago, boy, you got two years in one mouth. And sure enough, here I am decades later. And we need training like this to help us actually implement that, because it's hard.

[Carly Trout]

Ed, you actually brought up the generational changes. So if you don't mind, I'd like to dig into that a little bit more and ask you both if you're seeing changes in this upand cominging generation. If so, what are they and what implications do they have on these conversational skills?

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Yeah, I think this is an amazing discussion. Having the privilege to work with young leaders really saw changes over the years of their approach. And even Chuck and I will focus on different things here. I'm the old guy that is of the old generation, and all we do is go off and yell at people. And now one of the things that I experienced in working with young leaders is there's a desire to do everything through email and text, and that's fine. And it can be productive. Right. It can be effective tool and communication. But having really good conversational skills, being able to say what you mean, being able to get that out clearly, I think is much tougher for the younger generation, at least in my experience. But they want to do better at that. And that's been a really cool part of my career, is just helping people do that, helping people figure out how they can improve their conversational skills. And again, I think Chuck does a great job of that.

[Ed Palpit]

I would just add that my experience with the younger generation is they actually want more feedback, they want more affirmation. Right. I think the older generation in many ways just had a strong work ethic, and they just worked hard because that's what good people did.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

And.

[Ed Palpit]

But the younger generation, they want more feedback, they want more affirmation. They want to know what's the next step in their career. They want to know what's next for them, and they're thinking about that, and they expect their boss to have that conversation with them. And a lot of leaders are not having that conversation. That's a huge gap and causes a disconnect.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

I think that's actually one of the biggest conversations I had with when you had older leaders and younger leaders together, the older leaders would be saying, oh, they just all need a pat on the back. No, it's actually just feedback. It's feedback that they seek in order to improve. But how you see that generationally is pretty important. So that's where leaders of all generations need to grow in this kind of skill.

[Carly Trout]

Well, we definitely want to continue this conversation, but we're going to take a quick break and hear from today's sponsor.

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[Evan Hendershot]

And Ed, I appreciate all this stuff. I'm taking some of my own notes about seeing beyond the surface and thinking about the internal dialogue or also I was just loving the simplicity of some of this stuff and how it could apply to beyond construction. And Ed, you mentioned that younger generations are looking to build some of those good conversational skills. Outside of email and text, are there any other parts of these tough conversations that are missing in the construction world? Let's start with Chuck this time.

[Ed Palpit]

Yeah, I think that to tag it on to what we were just talking about, the younger generation and giving them feedback, I think that one of the skills that's missing is just the ability to ask the right questions. For example, if you're a superintendent and you manage a team, just being able to ask questions like hey Evan, where do you want to be in three to five years? Just that simple question. Just getting curious about what their long term career goals are. Most supers, most GCs don't ask those kind of questions. Another great question that I love isn't about the future, but it's just what skills and expertise do you want to develop this year in your current role? And if supers were to ask that to their key people on the job site that communicates I care about you and then once they hear, if they're genuinely listening and they hear about oh, they want to develop this skill set or this area of expertise and then if they're able to move them around the job site to be able to help develop them, that's going to build that loyalty and an engagement in a way that almost nothing else can do. So what's missing is like what are the handful of simple questions that all of us as people managers on the job site in five minutes Here and there ought to be asking people.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

I think for me, what is missing is related to how construction works. We get on a job site and we're already behind schedule. Right. And so we're behind schedule now. Everybody's pushing, we got to catch up. And it's just a fast moving, fast paced industry. And because it's this team of teams, which I hope we get to talk about, it often gets behind. And then that being behind keeps us from listening. So, for instance, you don't have to be on many projects to see how much rework happens. And that rework is usually because we didn't ask good questions or we didn't listen. And that usually is because we're moving too fast. And I often say to young leaders, just slow down. Or sometimes old leaders. Right. We're just used to charging ahead and saying, look, just slow down for a minute. Because we're an industry of productivity matters. But when we just charge right in that, we actually kill the productivity. We don't see that we're harming our productivity because we don't know how to listen and ask good questions. Yeah.

[Ed Palpit]

What Ed's talking about is, I think what's missing is the business case for conversations. To his point, people say, I don't have time to go and have that conversation. We would suggest, and our team would suggest, you can't afford not to have these kind of conversations. In fact, the research indicates that every missed conversation or conversation that is avoided costs $7,500. And that's because of that rework and lack of engagement and safety issues that come up because the conversation didn't happen. So we really believe and teach the business case for having the right conversation.

[Carly Trout]

Yeah. So it's interesting because tough conversations are obviously important in any job, but construction specifically. Chuck, you talked about working with high stakes environments. These are really high stakes as far as from a safety perspective, from a cost perspective, working with a lot of different teams and people trying to get everybody on the same page. So just to dig into this a little bit more, Ed, are there certain conversations that you think are the most critical, tough conversations within construction just because there are so many different types of tough conversations happening?

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there, Carly. There are so many tough conversations. And if you think from the beginning of a project to the end, whether it's conversations with the owner and not just for this project, but for future projects. Right. Those are critical conversations that we have good connection with. But it's way more than that. It's with every Contractor. It'd be easy if our company just went in and built a project. That's not the way we work. So if we don't have good conversations with the other contractors or between the subs and the gcs, all of a sudden, things can grind to a halt. And I used to actually show contractors how the loss of that conversation, whatever it was, is costing us a fortune. Chuck just said we don't have anything on our books that shows how much money we lose because somebody didn't have a conversation or because it went poorly. Everyone. We deal with architects, pretty important conversations, and they usually don't go well in this business. Or you mentioned safety, Carly. Right. In critical conversations, that whole job is difficult because they have to say the same thing over and over. But super important conversations or inspectors, anybody in our whole realm of building this building are pretty critical conversations. I think the toughest tend to be with owners and architects, but that's just me. I'm sure everybody would have their own version of what's toughest in this industry.

[Evan Hendershot]

Ed, you'd mentioned this concept of the team of teams. I'd be remiss if we didn't return to that, since you said you wanted to touch on that a little bit. So what were you meaning by that?

[Chuck Ainsworth]

What I mean by that is if you're building a car, you go into a factory and your team builds that car, you could say, we got different parts of the car that are being built. Okay, that's fine. But you're all a part of the same company. That's not the way construction works. We are a team of teams. We are a group of companies who are building a building or whatever we're doing, whether it's a road or anything. And that complicates this much more because every business has their own interests. Obviously, everyone wants to make money. Everyone wants to stay on a schedule that they've created. They want it to go smoothly. You have all these different interests that come from different companies, but we're all a part of the same team. And one of my biggest frustrations, honestly, with construction projects is that we don't realize that we forget that we're all really all on the same team, but we're a team of teams. And it's not easy to do when I'm a general contractor and I'm trying to get a electrical guy to show up on time, but he's late because we didn't get him there on time. It is a difficult thing in our industry to pull so many disparate people together to build one building that the owner will be happy with. That is not easy to do. And if you think about that, it really has nothing to do with your construction skills. It has everything to do with your conversational skills, your relational skills, your leadership skills, your ability to really drive what you need. And I had, for instance, I had a privilege of working with a company down in Florida, subcontractor, but very, very proactive in the way that they ran their business and the way they ran their projects. And often they would be teaching the GC how they have to do it. But, wow, that's a tough conversation to have. But that's what a team of team does. And it's not easy. It's not simple. Back to your point, Carly, it might be simple, but it's not easy. We have to do a better job at functioning as a team, meaning across all companies. And I don't think that's built into necessarily the DNA or the culture, at least in the past. But on the positive side, the younger leaders that I had the privilege of working with, I saw a big shift there, a more collaborative shift, a better understanding that, yeah, collaboration actually does work. It does help us be more productive. So that's where this generational shift I'm actually pretty excited about.

[Carly Trout]

We agree with you, Ed, which is why we're so happy that you both joined the podcast today. We are nearing the end of our time already, but, Chuck, I wanted to ask you about practical tips and what you can share with our audience, our construction leaders who are listening to the podcast. What practical tips would you give them about how to approach their next difficult conversation?

[Ed Palpit]

Carly, I'd say if you work with any of our two dozen coaches and consultants, one of the things you'll consistently hear from all of us is slow down and ask questions. In fact, to make it really practical, I try to remind myself of this is before you disagree with someone or you tell them they're wrong, make sure you ask at least two questions. I'm going to say that again because this is really important. And by the way, do this at home as well. Before you disagree with someone or tell them they're wrong.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Right.

[Ed Palpit]

Before you jump in and correct them, ask two questions. And these need to be genuine questions to gain a deeper understanding. Of course, doing that communicates. I'm curious. There's a degree of humility. There's. And it helps you really diagnose what's going on instead of just rushing to give orders and tell people what to do. If you do that, one thing, it will change your leadership, might change your life.

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Yeah. I would respond by telling you a story about a general superintendent that just called me a couple weeks ago, frustrated, angry at working with a bunch of superintendents that he, in his words, he said they're moving slow in the sense of productivity, but it's because they're moving too fast and not having good conversations. This guy is a seasoned superintendent that went through one of my classes years ago and he said, I'm seeing this now. I'm seeing how when we don't slow down and ask the right questions, it slows the project down. And so he was asking me, how do I get that across to my supers and how do I teach those kinds of skills? And that not easy, but super important. So I'm in full cooperation with Chuck there. Slow down, ask some good questions, listen. Well, before you just charge off and put the next piece of drywall up.

[Evan Hendershot]

Before we wrap things up, I wanted to make sure we had a chance to talk about the Every Conversation Matters guidebook. Y' all have anything you want to share about that resource from your organization?

[Chuck Ainsworth]

Yes.

[Ed Palpit]

In that guidebook will just give you a quick introduction to three habits that we teach. Each of these habits can be taught individually and they take about two hours to teach your team those habits. The first habit is really focused on communication. The second habit, if you read this guidebook, is going to talk about how do you accelerate connection and build trust between people. And the third habit, it's going to talk about how to win the inner game. That's that conversation between your own two ears. And so that guidebook will just give you a bit of a peek into how we do and why we do what we do. It talks about the business case for conversations and we hope you'll check it out. That's wonderful.

[Evan Hendershot]

We'll also try to take a look ourselves. At least I will. And with that, Chuck and Ed, we thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure chatting with you both. Before we go, I want to leave listeners with a resource of our own that will give you a peek into how your firm stacks up against the rest. So our recent owner survey is now available on cma net.org bookstore. It shows insights into the most common human and communication related challenges for cms, but also also many other items like preferred delivery method, common industry technologies that are used right now, and more. We're really excited to share this valuable new data with you. So we've made this study available for free to members. In our next episode, we will welcome guests from ACEC's Research Institute to discuss what they learned in their recent study on progressive design build. To be sure you don't miss our next episode, please subscribe to the podcast and follow us on social media. Maahq don't forget to leave us a review with your thoughts on today's episode and let us know what you would like to hear on an upcoming podcast. On behalf of cmaa, I'm Evan Hendershot with Carly Trout. Thank you for listening.