Nick Soto (4:32)

And you live happily ever after.

Doreen Bartoldis (4:35)

Yes, for sure.

Carli Troup (4:36)

So now that we've mentioned Andrea. A couple of times. Andrea, why don't you jump in here and kind of do the same, share a little bit about your career journey and how you got started doing the work you're doing.

Andrea Jensen (4:47)

So thank you so much, Carly and Nick, for having me and Doreen today. I'm honored to be here. So I'm the founder of Ambition Theory, and we're a leadership development company focused on helping women in construction advance their careers. But also we help companies build an environment and a culture where everybody can thrive. And I got into this in a really roundabout way. My path was not straightforward because I don't. Doreen found construction early in her career. I found it kind of like in the middle of my career because it wasn't something that was presented to me as I was kind of growing up, going to the career fairs, getting that exposure. It was not really a path for me. Like, I didn't really see it as an option. And so I started working. I used to work in marketing and corporate marketing, and I wanted to start a leadership development company. So I was just. When you start something, you will do whatever it takes to get it off the ground. So I am hustling, you know, just putting myself out there. And my husband actually got me into construction. So he works for a big general contractor, and his company was actually sending women to the engineering news records groundbreaking women in construction conference. And this was back in 2018, and I had been kind of focused a little bit on women's leadership development. And he said, andrea, look at how great my company is. They're sending women to this conference. I was like, wow, that's amazing. Let me look at the website. Let me see who's speaking. I'm curious. And there was a spot on the calendar that said tbd. And so I ended up cold calling them. And I said, you need a women's leadership speaker. And they actually said, yes. And at the time, I had never been a speaker before. I didn't really know anything about construction. And so I went. I did a talk. It was called reignite your ambition. And it went so well that I was in this tiny little breakout room, and probably 200 people showed up. There was maybe 50 chairs. And from that, I got construction clients. So I had these coaching clients, clients from construction. And I just kept getting more and more and more. And it came to the point where 70% of our clientele was from the construction industry. So we made the decision, instead of really trying to help every single industry, we were going to go all in with construction and really Level up that expertise, become that expert company that knows, like, what does it actually take to get women into these leadership roles? So that's kind of how it started. And really we have a really big vision. And that's where I met Doreen. And Doreen, we just had this moment where our visions aligned. Doreen's like, I want to make this thing happen. And I'm like, I'm trying to make this thing happen. And it's a slow growth. It's growing so slowly. And I think what's really powerful about connections and being involved in associations like CMAA and NAWIC is that you meet people who have similar values to yours. So I met Doreen. She had this big vision. I had a vision I was trying to get off the ground. And it was just really, it was hard going it alone. And so Doreen said, we have this opportunity, will you pitch for it? And so that's the start of the NAWIC Leadership Academy. And it has been an incredible ride. And I think some of the outcomes that we've gotten, like, it's an eight week course and by week six, seven, we have people coming to our coaching session saying like, I got a promotion, I closed a big deal and we're getting these really incredible outcomes. But I think of what is that doing for the industry? If we want to really have this industry be open to everybody and everybody can imagine themselves working there, we actually do need women in leadership in order to make that happen. And so it's just been incredible to see the impact that we've been able to have over the past couple years as we've been just been really intentional about giving women the tools that they need to get to that next level of influence. Because that's how you influence the industry, that's how you have more innovation and all of those wonderful things. So that's kind of the backstory of how the NAWIC Leadership Academy came about.

Carli Troup (8:53)

First of all, I just want to say we're so glad that you made that call and jumped in on that session and, you know, the rest is history. So that's great. So since we're talking about the Leadership Academy now, I'm wondering, Andrea, if you could just break down how the program works, what's the format, how long is it, what type of professionals join, that would be great.

Andrea Jensen (9:15)

Yeah. So I think the main difference, it is a transformational leadership program. So at Ambition Theory, we teach transformational versus transactional leadership. We use that model. We did not invent it. But the cool thing about it is transactional leadership. The model is that traditional top down approach. So where the leader, you know, sets the vision for the team and then delegates responsibility, tells people what to do, gives them praise when things are going well and gives them that constructive feedback when things are not going well. So that's the transactional model and that's really the default model within the construction industry. So the transformational side is where the leader's job again set the vision. But instead of telling people what to do, it's about inviting them into contribute. So finding out what their strengths are and aligning that with what are the tasks that need to be done. Where's the company going? It's about building relationships, it's about collaboration, it's about forward thinking, like looking at like what is my client doing? Construction is not a one company job. You're always working with other companies, like what are these other companies goals and how can I help them reach their goals? So we are a transformational leadership course. And the reason is that research shows, and we've done research with nccer, the national center for Construction Education and research to quantify this. So the research that we've done shows that women naturally are more transformational, men are naturally more transactional. It's the same in other industries as well. Other researchers have studied this. But the interesting thing about construction is that because there's more men than women in the industry today, and especially in those leadership roles, there's a lot more men than women. The default leadership style is transactional. So a lot of the courses are how to give feedback, how to have difficult conversations, how to delegate, which are really like honing in on those transactional skills. But there wasn't really a course to really teach people those transformational leadership skills. And the cool thing about it is that women naturally have these. When Doreen talked about like I had to learn things the hard way. Doreen had all these skills inside of her, but no one actually showed her the path on how to leverage them to actually contribute to her company and to really bring value every day to the project to the people that you work with. So that's really like the foundation of this program. It's like we're helping women leverage the strengths that they already have and just give them the tools so that they can use them to bring in more contracts like motivate their team, have more collaboration with the other people that they work with. So that's really the principle of the course. It's completely virtual, there's kind of some self guided content. But Then also live coaching and something that's really different, our approach is different from others is what we found. Other leadership courses are very heavy on the content, so it's really like a, this is what worked for me, and this is how you do it. And here's my story of how I was able to use it. And so it's really a lot of time, like, consuming. So whether that's in a classroom or you're watching videos. Whereas ours is heavier on implementation, so it's really light on the content. We teach something in a pretty short amount of time, but then the focus of our energy and our time together is how are you going to take this tool and how can you implement that in. In your company, in your job? And because we structure it that way, we're able to get these incredible results, like, within the program. So that's kind of the overview of it. And what's really interesting is we started the program with the goal of it being for professionals, and that's who we really had coming in at the beginning. And really fascinating thing happened. So I kept hearing, okay, we need more women in the trades. There's a craft labor shortage. Like, that's kind of this narrative that I would hear all the time. And so I talked to people in the industry. I said, you know what? Like, this is happening. Like, do you think ambition theory, do you think this course, do you think this path is a way to solve that problem? And every single industry expert I talked to said, no, Andrea, you gotta stay in your lane. Professionals and craft are completely separate. And if you want to serve that segment, you would have to make a whole new thing and they would not work together. And the first cohort of the NAWIC Leadership Academy. So it starts on a Monday, the Friday. We get the list of who is signed up, where they work, what their job is. Oh, three craftwomen signed up. And I was like, it's Friday, it starts on Monday. I did not prepare special content. I didn't, you know, do anything special for these people, like, what are we going to do? And so we decided we weren't going to give them a refund because, you know, they signed up, they knew what they were getting into. We're going to welcome them in and we're going to pay close attention and see what happens. And if we miss the ball on something, if they hate it, we can refund them later. We can, you know, add an extra module at the end if we need to. Let's just see how it goes. And what happened was we asked them, and they said, no, this is exactly what we need. And more importantly, why are we dividing? Like, if we are going to be this industry that moves forward, that is strong, we need to do this together. We can't do this separately.

Nick Soto (14:34)

Dorian, I want to ask you a specific question, a little bit about the success of this program. And you've been in construction for a long time, so what kind of barriers of construction professionals see when they're trying to advance their career? And how does the Leadership Academy and Ambition Theory help overcome some of these obstacles?

Doreen Bartoldis (14:52)

First thing that comes to mind, Andrea, is this sponsorship versus mentorship and also that transformational type leadership that doesn't get recognized as much as the transactional. So my difficulties first came. I didn't have mentors per se, and I had to find them. Like, nobody kind of stepped up and said, doreen, you know, let me teach you. Some did. And you know, I'm here for a reason, right? I got taught somehow. So. But the other thing is sponsorship. I was being asked to learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. So, like, one of the first big jobs I wanted to get on in New York City, I was like, I can do that job. I can do that job. And my boss at the time's like, well, you've never done a big job before. You know, it was like, at the time, it was a $200 million project, and I had only done $75 million projects. I'm like, I can run a project. I can do this, right? And they were like, they would put a man in there who did the same thing I did, and my resume might have been better. And I knew this. I just knew this. But they were saying no. You know, maybe they just didn't want to take the risk. You know, maybe they didn't think I could do it. I don't know. Fast forward several years later, somebody did put my resume in for a $1.4 billion job. After I did finally do a couple $200 million jobs. Had I ever done a $1.4 billion job before? No. But because somebody sponsored me and said, I know you can do it, and I know the client wants you to do it. We're going to put you in for it. And that happened, and that wouldn't have happened, and I probably wouldn't be talking to you today if that didn't happen without a sponsor. Now, if I had knew that sooner, that happened when I was like, mid-40s, later-40s, that could have happened a lot sooner for me if I knew if men knew they needed to sponsor me or if I knew I needed to find that sponsor. So that's one indication. The other is the transactional leadership. You get marked on, like, are you meeting your budget? Are you, you know, are the people I don't know improving? And things like that. I have become naturally a leader where people just, you know, and I don't want to brag about this, but I. They do. They follow me because I care about people, and I think most women do. They have that kind of caring, nurturing, and people will follow you, stay with you, work with you. It's not all about the money or the raise or the promotion you're giving them. It's how they feel at their job as well. And that's not measured much until you leave a company. And they say, oh, people might leave because she left. So that's the transformational part that I learned more about myself, that I was that kind of more transformational leader. And that's the one thing that wasn't really getting recognized. So those are the two best examples I can give you.

Nick Soto (17:24)

Let's take a quick break and hear from our sponsor.

Andrea Jensen (17:27)

At stv, we see the potential that lives within communities. We believe in the positive impact that takes place when people come together and worlds connect. Helping to create that transformation is what drives us forward and fuels our optimism for a better world. Stv making communities better today and for the future.

Carli Troup (17:52)

And, Andrea, maybe you could jump in and add to not only what challenges in the industry the program helps to address, but also maybe the challenges of the program itself and anything that you've come across. Lessons learned.

Andrea Jensen (18:06)

Yeah, I think Doreen really talked about the main challenge that this addresses is, like, the one that transformational leadership isn't rewarded. Like, we typically like how we advance people. How do you decide in your company, who should I give the promotion to? Who should I put on that bigger project? And usually the check boxes are like, what Doreen already talked about. Can manage the budget, can get stuff on time, can give direction. But what's really cool about what Doreen said is, like, there was a little nugget hidden in there that I'd love to point out is that the client asked you to be on this $1.2 billion project. And I think that's the transformation of leadership. And today there isn't a box that says, like, builds great relationships with the client, gets the client thinking about future work. And yes, Doreen's managing the project. She's managing the budget. She's doing all these things, but she's not being recognized for this other skill, skill that she's bringing to the table that is bringing the company tons of money, right? Like the fact that they, they're specifically asking to have Doreen on this project means they want to work with this company again. So Doreen is kind of bringing that repeat business. But there isn't a formal structure to recognize that, develop that talent and then also make sure it's being rewarded. So that's one. The second one is it's research based. So we actually asked women in a quantitative survey, what feedback do you get about your leadership skills? And 76% were told, if you want to get to the next level, you need to be more confident, you need to work on your confidence. But 70% of these exact same survey respondents were told that they need to be less bossy. So how it typically shows up, you're like, in your performance review and you're like, manager, what should I put on that box? That's like, this is what I'm going to work on this year. And it's like, confidence. And you're like, great, your manager is going to support you. You're like, I'm so pumped, I'm going to be confident. So you look around the company, the industry, and you're like, I'm going to emulate the behaviors of the most confident leaders in my company. And today they're mostly men. And so they're assertive, they're confident, they're telling people what to do, they're giving direction, they are passionate about their projects. And you're like, I'm watching, I'm making a list. I'm going to behave that way. And so you do that. And then it's like, oh, we have seen, I guess some of these challenges are, you know, you get called into your manager's office for a conversation. We have seen people get put on formal performance improvement plans for being too aggressive, too bossy. Sometimes they're called another word that starts with a B. And then as this motivated talented woman in the industry with all this experience, you're like, how am I supposed to navigate this? Like you told me, literally it says on my performance review, I need to work on my confidence. And so I did. And now I'm actually on this like, performance improvement plan. And so how am I supposed to behave? And there's these other behaviors that women have, like Doreen said, like nurturing, caring that actually attract people. But in our society, we kind of like see leadership really one way. Especially in construction, leaders are confident and assertive. Women in society are expected to be caring and nursing, nurturing. But if you're caring and nurturing in a leadership role, there's this perception, oh, she doesn't have what it takes. And so women have to navigate this double bind. And so that's something that we kind of address head on in the Leadership Academy and really help people to show up authentically and figure out how to leverage those transformational leadership skills. We teach them the words to describe the value that they're bringing, but also the value in themselves. So a lot of times we have these really talented women that are contributing so much to their projects and they doubt their value. Like, they're not confident selling themselves or asking for that bigger thing or like, you know, asking to be put on that bigger project or to pitch for a new client. And so we really help them believe it themselves, but then actually showcase it to their companies in a really authentic way that everybody can get behind. And I think what's really been wonderful in this approach is that we haven't got any backlash from any of the companies that put people in that are like, oh, well, who does she think she is? She's all demanding now. And we haven't gotten backlash from that. It's really like, thank you for, like, leveling up this person and like, helping me realize that, you know, maybe I was under utilizing them before for. And they're actually capable of so much more and the company can kind of just meet us there and like, give them this incredible opportunity that just leads to more value. So I will say we've had a lot of project managers take this program, and I lost count of how many times this has happened. They'll come back and they'll say, hey, Andrea, guess what? Like, the client is going to give us more work. They are not putting it out for bid. Only if I'm the project manager. So that has happened so many times. And I just think about, like, the Leadership Academy is a few thousand dollars and like, what is the value of getting that piece of work without having to bid for it? Like, it's just. It's been really incredible to see that.

Carli Troup (23:25)

That's awesome. And just from a scale perspective, I'm wondering how many women have been through this program or gone through Ambition Theory or the Leadership Academy. And I'm wondering if you can distinguish the two, because I think that would be important for our listeners.

Andrea Jensen (23:41)

Yeah, so we've had like hundreds, if not thousands go through our different variations of the programs that we offer. So we really know, like, what is going to come up for people, how do we support them, and how do we get them to that next level? And really what the difference is, the partnership with NAWIC is really about helping individual women. So the NAWIC Leadership Academy is for women who are ready to get to that next level, or companies that have one or two people and they're like, you know, I want to invest in her career. I want to give her this support so that we can leverage her skills even more and she can rise within our company. So it's for individual women. Ambition Theory, our focus is more working with companies. So working with companies. And the cool thing that we do with companies is that it's not just for women. And I think there was this assumption, you know, for many years that the reason that there's not a lot of women in construction is because of women, and women can actually solve this issue. But I think in recent years, we've kind of had this realization as a society that, you know what, these are just systemic issues. It's nobody's fault. It's not like women don't belong here. It's just like there haven't been that many women in the industry for a long time, and there's not a lot of women in positions of power. And so if we really want to change things and make it more welcoming, we need everybody on board. And I think that's what we do at Ambition Theory is we work with a company so that we can create this environment, and it's actually where everybody can thrive. We really want to make sure that we're not creating divides as something that we're very intentional about. But really, what can the company do to have this environment so that they can attract and retain the best possible talent and get the best people in those roles? So that's what we do at Ambition Theory is really more focused on the company side.

Nick Soto (25:30)

Doreen, I want you to put a bow on this for me. Expand on the current partnership with CMAA and nawic, because I think that will help our listeners kind of understand why we have Ambition Theory here and AWIC here and why we've had you on so many times and what we're trying to get across here.

Doreen Bartoldis (25:45)

Well, yes, it really is to bring more women to the CMAA, as well as get the CMAA men and women aware of NAEWIC also. And it's a great partnership. We've been Talking about certifications, MyCCM, you know, and encouraging more women to get those as well, because I think it's a very valuable tool. We can get into that if we have time. So within that partnership now, I've been able to realize my two passions, which is construction management and women in construction. And bringing us together as NAWIC and CMAA has really helped me realize that passion. And then the other passion with the NAWIC Leadership Academy, as Andrea spoke before, it really spoke to what my vision was for NAWIC and actually NAWIC's own vision and strategic plan. So now bringing that to cmaa, we have gotten it certified to be one of the continuing education credits for the ccm, which we're very proud of and we're hoping more people take advantage of as they get their CCM or as they're renewing their ccm, as I did the last time. I was wishing I could have put Leadership Academy on that box. But anyway, so that's why we're kind of all here together now. That partnership between NAWIC and CMAA and the passion for leadership and the partnership between NAWIC and Ambition Theory.

Nick Soto (27:06)

So I have one last question, but I want you both to take a second to think about and answer it. It's actually a two parter for you, Andrea, but I want to know what advice you would give to emerging leaders in the construction field who want to make a meaningful impact within their organization. And I also want to know if there's any new initiatives or anything exciting you want to share with Sandria that's coming down the pipeline.

Andrea Jensen (27:26)

The first one is like, what advice do I have for emerging professionals? And I think the biggest thing is to understand the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. I didn't learn the difference until I was like 35. And I was, to be honest, when I first learned about it, I was mad. I'm like, why didn't anybody explain this to me when I was 22? And so I'll just give a quick explanation. So mentorship is about advice and preparation. So that's where a mentor, someone more experienced than you, shares with you how they were able to navigate things. They will tell you stories, they might recommend books that you read and they'll give you advice. But the important distinguishment is at the end of the day, you as the mentee, as the junior motivated young person that doesn't have a lot of influence yet. You have to figure out how to implement it by yourself. So you're reading the books, you're being prepared, but at the end of the day, it's on you to find the opportunity to prove that you've learned these skills. So that's the mentorship model. And as women, that is what we're told to do from a very young age as we start in our careers. Sponsorship, Doreen talked about this a little bit, is about exposure and opportunity. So instead of read this book, this is how I did it. It's like you want to learn how to drive business forward, Come to the client meeting and you know what, you can, you know, ask a couple questions or present a couple slides and you know what, I will be there and I can step in to ensure that it's successful. And the, the key difference is really that skin in the game. At the end of the day, in a sponsorship relationship, you're creating an opportunity together. So it's action oriented. It's about exposure and that opportunity. So if you can really understand the difference and seek out those sponsorship opportunities, that is my advice and how to do it. I think a really quick nugget is actually to kind of take a step back and realize it's actually not about me. When we're really teaching about the mentorship model, it's like you're finding that person and you're like, please give, give, give, give. And you're just asking, asking, asking for them to download and give you information where sponsorship really needs to be a win, win. So when you're starting out, and this might be a bit counterintuitive, but don't think about. You actually get curious about them. What are their goals? What is this experienced person trying to do? What are they stressed out about? And really figure out from where you are today, how can you help them just a tiny little bit, Maybe it's giving them some information like what is, you know, actually happening on the project site that is not in the report. You know, share that little tidbit with them and see how you can help them. Offer to, I don't know if they're working on a presentation, offer them some insight. You know, if they don't understand how to use the technology as well as you do, show them how to use it and really build that relationship. Make it about them first. Because what happens is you build trust, you get to know them and then you're going to be at the back of their mind when they're in that very important meeting thinking about who am I putting on that $1.2 billion project? And you're like, actually that person helped me out last week. They have potential and they'll put your name out for that project when you're not there. So that's my advice. For the younger people. And I think what's coming down the pipeline is we have the NAWIC Leadership Academy running three times a year. So we read it in the fall, the winter and the spring. And at Ambition Theory, we are kind of going bigger with our data. So what's kind of exciting now is when we're working with our corporate clients, we have hard data to really show what is the return on investment and what is going to be different and how are we going to make more money, make people want to come to work, attract better people. We're able to measure that now with our corporate clients. So you can really see. So it's going beyond I should invest in women because it's the right thing to do to actually here's the business case. So that's what we're working on right now.

Doreen Bartoldis (31:26)

Okay. So Andrea kind of hit on it, but I'll get, I'll put it in like a little bit more of a CMAA NAWA kind of package, I think. Emerging professionals. First of all, invest in yourself and that means don't have your head down. Like I always said, I did a good job, I did a good job. Why can't I move forward? But you got to put your head up and start networking, join associations. I mean, my career completely changed when I joined the CMAA and NAWIC and I started networking and people started to get to know me better. I found mentors within the associations. I don't know, Nick, if you remember Mehdi Hadari, when I went to California, he actually became my mentor for my ccm. So I just want to mention him. He was a great mentor.

Nick Soto (32:04)

Named the CCM Award after him.

Doreen Bartoldis (32:07)

Yes, he was awesome. So I have my CCM because he kind of just hold me along and say, give me your application. So invest in yourself that way and you know, go join an association. Your companies, if they don't pay for it, you can do it yourself. I know locally in New York we have an emerging professionals event coming up and it's free the CMA people. So look for those kind of events to network and try to get your head up. I know it's kind of hard when you're in construction, your boots on the ground, but there are ways to do it. And what's coming down the pike for NAWIC actually when doing a lot with a global alliance. So we're looking to share our programs with the global in the uk, in Australia and Qatar and beyond. So NAWIC is building a global alliance. So watch for that in the future. And then, yeah, looking forward to working more with CMAA as well.

Andrea Jensen (32:57)

So great.

Carli Troup (32:58)

We look forward to hearing more about the programs and what you both have coming up in the future. Doreen and Andrea, I just want to thank you both for joining us today. It was great to talk to you and we really appreciate you sharing your insight with us.

Andrea Jensen (33:11)

Thank you so much for having us.

Doreen Bartoldis (33:13)

Yeah, this was great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Carli Troup (33:16)

And for those who would like to learn more about NAWIC Leadership Academy, they can visit NAWIC. That's N A W I C leadershipacademy.org and for more information on Ambition Theory, you can visit ambitiontheory.com on the next episode of the Construction Leaders Podcast, we will be joined by Marcia Alvarado, the creator, creative mind behind the Alvarado experience as an engineer, professional model and activist. Marcia's innovative personality continually challenges others and herself to break the norms of society and explore new possibilities in the industry. She'll be with us to discuss her personal journey and what authentic leadership in construction means. As always, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and follow us on social media maahq Also, we would love for you to leave a review with your thoughts on today's episode or any of our past episodes and let us know what you'd like to hear on an upcoming episode. On behalf of cmaa, I'm Karlie Trout with Nick Soto.

Andrea Jensen (34:23)

Thank you for listening.