Contemplify Podcast: Andrew Krivak on the Inheritance of Loss, Death as a Character, and Like the Appearance of Horses

Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Andrew Krivak
Date: November 10, 2024

Episode Overview

In this episode, Paul Swanson invites acclaimed novelist Andrew Krivak to discuss his latest work, Like the Appearance of Horses, the final book in a trilogy tracing a family lineage through war, loss, and the endurance of spirit. Their conversation winds through themes of gratitude, the multiplicity of hero’s journeys, the insistent presence of death, the inheritance of place and memory, and the transformative power of art, music, and story.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nourishing Influence of Nature and Mountains

• Krivak’s deep attachment to mountains: Skiing in the White Mountains, and how nature has become more profound as he ages, contrasting with a youthful yearning for cities and activity.
  • “I feel like there's far more substance in that emptiness, that near infinitude, whatever you call it, that transcendence, and just the, you know, the reality of living in the cold, which I prefer now, far over the cities.” (03:13, Andrew Krivak)
• Nature as clarification: Both Swanson and Krivak note the “cleansing” effect of time in the mountains on priorities and daily life. (02:46-03:13)

2. The Clarity Brought by Time

• Focus on gratitude and acceptance:
  • “I really feel like I've increasingly found a way to live. To live in gratitude...maybe it's just as I get older. I turned 60 last August...I kind of look at my wife and I think, wow, so she loves me and it's really awesome to be loved.” (04:59, Andrew Krivak)
  • Recognizing “the old Greek agon” (the struggle): “There would be no story without struggle...I’m grateful for what I’ve been able to make of it.” (05:51, Andrew Krivak)

3. What Formed Andrew Krivak? The Personal Syllabus

• Foundational influences:
  • The Odyssey: The sound, the form, and the mythic structure of the Greek epic. “That sound and the form and content can come together and create a three dimensional literary tapestry.” (08:07, Andrew Krivak)
  • St. Augustine’s Confessions: Discovery “from the inside out”, the writing of autobiography as the making of self. (09:40)
  • A Byzantine icon of St. Andrew, painted by Bill McNichols.
• Bonus influences:
  • Cat Stevens’ Teaser and the Firecat, Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon, and the importance of music for forging identity and sustaining the self in rural Pennsylvania.
  • “Music and art had a large part in that [becoming who I am].” (19:16, Andrew Krivak)

4. The Role of Vinyl, Music, and Nostalgia

• Albums as formative experience: The special, lifelong grip of music discovered during adolescence.
• Nostalgia as homecoming:
  • “That notion of nostos, from the Greek, it just...Nostalgia just means a homecoming, right? That's Homer, that's Odysseus. It's all about the nostos. He just wants to get home.” (18:23, Andrew Krivak)
  • Listening to old records as both remembrance and affirmation of who one has become.
• Multigenerational music connection: Krivak’s daughter, age 13, loves Pink Floyd, and the podcast touches on how music bonds generations. (19:37-19:52)

5. About Like the Appearance of Horses: Structure, Title, and Thematic Depth

• On the title and biblical roots:
  • Drawn from Joel 2:4, “Their appearance is like the appearance of horses...and like war horses, so they run.”
• Recurring motif of war:
  • “War is a constant appearing presence on the arc of the narrative...I've been wondering about that with respect to, again, this notion of the Greek agon, the struggle. War is the macrocosm of our own internal struggles.” (22:08, Andrew Krivak)
  • Family history informs fiction; each generation faces their own version of conflict or homecoming.
• Nonlinear storytelling:
  • Intentionally asynchronous narrative to reflect the way stories and legacies cross and intertwine over generations.
  • “Forget about the time when he or she appears. What needs to be known, this point in the story...Everything just changed when I started to move it around like that.” (27:11, Andrew Krivak)
• The hero’s journey for those who leave—and those who stay:
  • “There is this hero's journey that feels connected...but also the ways that other characters who don't go to war, but are on their own heroic journey...What does it mean to be the hero who stays at home, who tends to the land, who tends to the community?” (29:16, Paul Swanson)
  • Krivak highlights the generational resilience and complexity within these journeys, especially the roles of those enduring the costs of war from home (31:00+).

6. Witness, Lineage, and The Weight of Home

• Generational narrative:
  • The importance of bearing witness to tragedy and resilience, particularly through female characters like Hannah.
  • “I think the idea of bearing witness...is my grandmother, insofar as she bore witness to this generation by just telling a story...that’s what I carry around with me and carry along from her.” (37:11, Andrew Krivak)
  • Real stories from Krivak’s own family, such as the story of Frances Posto, enrich the novel’s tapestry.
• Embodying and mythologizing heritage:
  • Paul finds deep meaning in returning to ancestral lands—a theme echoed in Krivak’s writing and his own visits to ancestral villages.
  • “The connection to land was always another relationship that was at the forefront, but never necessarily having to be spoken about because each character was embracing it in their own way.” (44:28, Paul Swanson)
  • The land, the road, and one’s place in both—embodied particularly in the character of Bzhet/Bex. (46:12+, Andrew Krivak)

7. Death as a Character and the Inheritance of Loss

• Omnipresence of death:
  • “It's almost like death is a character...When war is so much of the background...there's a way in which death is always up front...almost like memento mori without having to say anything.” (49:39, Paul Swanson)
• Personal connection:
  • Krivak began truly writing after his father’s death:
    • “It wasn’t until I could—the man was there and then he was not...That’s when I started to write, when I understood what writing was and what I would write about.” (51:35, Andrew Krivak)
  • Family, faith, and the Catholic imagination shape his perspective: “The church is not letting us be anxious about death...It's not the end, even if it is the end. Just a good long nap, right?” (57:36-61:07, Andrew Krivak)
  • The sense that we are “the inheritors of loss” lingers throughout his novels. (61:55, Andrew Krivak)

8. Honoring Ancestry and the Interwoven Myths of Family

• Intergenerational legacy and myth:
  • Paul remarks on the mythologizing of elders, noting that reading back through the novels allows for nuanced perspectives—both mythic and foibled—of ancestral figures. (54:11+)
  • Krivak notes the Catholic tradition’s comforts regarding death, continuity, and becoming part of the greater cosmos. (57:36+)

9. Looking Ahead: What’s Next for Andrew Krivak?

• Mule Boy (forthcoming novel):
  • Based on the death of Krivak’s paternal grandfather in the Pennsylvania mines.
  • “It's called Mule Boy...It's about a young boy. He's a mule boy in the mines. It's 1929...There's a cave in—a small cave in...The two miners and two buddies and the mule boy are caught in this room. And they, those four die and the mule boy gets out. And then he has to carry their stories...in his own sense of, here I am, and there they are, they're sealed in there for all eternity and he has to live his life.” (63:14, Andrew Krivak)
  • Examines generational trauma, survivor's guilt, and the need to carry/lift stories forward.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The multiplicity of influence
  • “It's moments where the mind and the heart open for me, whether it's a book or painting or music.” (13:00, Andrew Krivak)
• On nostalgia and homecoming:
  • “Nostalgia just means a homecoming, right? That's Homer, that's Odysseus. It's all about the nostos. He just wants to get home.” (18:23, Andrew Krivak)
• On the mythic endurance of families:
  • “We are the inheritors of loss because we feel that—they don’t. It’s the last thing you will leave when you go is the people who love you will miss you. But you’re lost, you’re lost.” (61:55, Andrew Krivak)
• On the narrative arc and death:
  • “I didn’t understand the beginning, middle, end of narrative as a writer until my father passed away...That’s when I really started to write.” (51:35, Andrew Krivak)
• On ‘bearing witness’ through stories:
  • “My grandmother, insofar as she bore witness to this generation by just telling a story...that’s what I carry around with me and carry along from her.” (37:11, Andrew Krivak)
• On what’s next:
  • “Mule Boy...I'm just going through edits, changing things around a bit...I wanted to examine that [carrying the stories of the lost]...It really took me to another place.” (63:14, Andrew Krivak)
• Original drink pairing:
  • “I would have a glass of Sagrantino and toast the old world.” (69:51, Andrew Krivak)
• Closing blessing:
  • “Thank you for listening to this slow-cooked episode of Contemplify. May its delights spark wonder, and may any sour patches be sweetened by their folly.” (69:51, Paul Swanson)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:13 – Krivak on outgrowing the city and finding substance in nature
• 04:59 – What has become clearer: Gratitude & acceptance
• 07:48 – The three (or five) formative influences on Krivak
• 15:39 – Memories and meaning of vinyl and music in adolescence
• 21:59 – Title and narrative intentions behind Like the Appearance of Horses
• 31:00 – Discussion on the hero’s journey in war and at home
• 37:11 – The role of women as witness-bearers across generations
• 49:39 – The presence of death and “memento mori” in the novels
• 61:55 – The inheritance of loss, family myth, and honoring ancestors
• 63:14 – Introducing Mule Boy and what’s coming next
• 69:51 – Wine pairing and closing blessings

Tone and Language

Krivak and Swanson maintain a warm, contemplative, and intellectually generous tone throughout. Their language is richly evocative, speculative, and invests everyday and ancestral experience with mythic resonance.

Summary Takeaways

• Like the Appearance of Horses is a profound meditation on inheritance, the messiness of family, the complexity and necessity of gratitude, the enduring presence of death, and the transformative power of art and story in contending with a world marked by struggle, war, and loss.
• Krivak’s stories draw heavily from his own family’s history and are animated by the legacies of war, the wisdom of strong women, and the continuity of landscape and labor.
• The episode is itself a slow-cooked, reflective journey—modeling both the importance of the examined life and the kindness of anchoring ourselves in deep story, gratitude, and the work we are given to do.

For more on Andrew Krivak: andrewkrivak.com
Show notes and resources: contemplify.com