Contemplify Podcast Episode Summary

Guest: Drew Jackson
Host: Paul Swanson
Episode: Touch the Earth, Poetry as a Lifesaver, and the Importance of Lucille Clifton
Date: August 25, 2024

Overview

In this engaging episode of Contemplify, host Paul Swanson welcomes poet and public theologian Drew Jackson for a heartfelt and reflective conversation. Their discussion weaves through the intersections of poetry, contemplative practice, personal lineage, and justice. Drew shares stories from his upbringing, how hip-hop and scripture catalyzed his love for words, the formative influence of figures like Nas, Howard Thurman, and Lucille Clifton, and offers practical wisdom on the importance of embracing mystery and the poetic in spiritual life. Throughout, Drew reads from his newest collection Touch the Earth, offering poems that fuse the Gospel of Luke’s narrative with contemporary questions and deep personal introspection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Contemplative Practice and Daily Life

• Contemplation Defined: Drew identifies as contemplative, emphasizing presence, attention to the “in-between spaces,” and responding to life with love and non-judgment ([04:00]).

  • “It comes down to paying attention both to my interior landscape and to what's happening around me...allowing myself to be fully present to all of it without judgment and holding the tensions of what is so that I can respond in a way that is present to love.” – Drew Jackson, [04:00]

• From Silence to Everyday Practice: While Drew practices centering prayer daily, he focuses on carrying “interior silence” beyond formal practice—being aware during ordinary actions (dishes, making the bed), inspired by Brother Lawrence ([05:58]).

• Poetry as Contemplative Practice: Poetry is described as a tool that heightens attention, often emerging from the “smallness of things,” and drawing the poet (and reader) into presence ([07:35]).

2. Poetry as Lifesaver and Formative Lineage

• Poetry and Inner Worlds: Drew shares that poetry helped him access his own feelings and interiority, describing it as a “lifesaver” that provided language for what was previously foreign to him ([09:35]).

  • “I am not a person by nature very in tune with my own interior world…presence through poetry has given me a tool...to access what's really happening in me and around me in ways that for a long time were foreign.” – Drew Jackson, [09:37]

• Formational Influences:

  • Nas’s Illmatic: Lyricism and storytelling as an entry into language.
    • “What you can do with [words], how you can make music out of words.” – Drew Jackson, [11:54]
  • Howard Thurman’s "Jesus and the Disinherited": Spiritual kinship, intertwining mysticism and justice.
  • Thomas Merton’s "New Seeds of Contemplation": Gave Drew a name and lineage for contemplation.
  • His Mother & Mystical Tradition: Drew’s mother, a poet and mystic (although never naming herself so), seeded both creativity and contemplation, even introducing mystical writers like St. John of the Cross ([15:00]).

• Scripture as Early Poetry: He grew up memorizing scripture (often in the King James Version), drawn to its poetic resonance as much as doctrine ([18:44]).

3. Poetry, Perception, and Breaking Stereotypes

• Hip-Hop Roots & Poetic Identity: Entry point was hip-hop; familial environment fostered creativity.

• Poetry in School vs. Life: Drew points out school rarely instilled a real love of poetry and encourages people to explore poets widely until something resonates ([24:42]).

• Deconstructing the Poet Stereotype: People are surprised by Drew’s identity as both athlete and poet, challenging expectations about who “looks” like a poet ([22:38]).

• On the Challenge of 'Meaning' in Poetry:

  • Drew critiques the pedagogy of demanding “the meaning” from poetry, advocating instead for a reader-centered engagement: What resonates? What questions does the poem evoke? ([25:46])
  • “It's like trying to analyze a flower, petal by petal, and plucking all the petals off because you're trying to figure this thing out. And then you're left looking at this thing like, I don't get it.” – Drew Jackson, [26:40]

4. Walking with the Gospels & "Touch the Earth"

• Origin Story: God Speaks Through Wombs and Touch the Earth are companion projects—poems in conversation with the Gospel of Luke, written amid the pandemic, racial reckoning, and his own vocational shifts. Drew needed dialogue with texts and voices that didn’t need convincing about oppression ([27:57]).

• A Living Conversation with Scripture: Drew wanted contemporary poetry as dialogue with gospel narrative, as Psalms have been a soundtrack to Torah ([31:27]). Touch the Earth marks a shift in focus: the Gospel’s narrative changes as Jesus moves toward Jerusalem, and Drew notes more of his own story emerges in these later poems.

5. Poem Readings & Reflections

"These Bags" ([37:12])

• Reflects on carrying inherited and self-accumulated “bags”—the cherished, the shameful, and the process of letting go, especially relevant during Drew’s own vocational transition.
  • Memorable quote on craft: “…as you go on in the poem, it gets a little bit more sparse…when I read the poem, I want to feel the journey of letting go…of verbiage as I go.” ([41:00])

"Which Lives" ([46:11])

• A poem pondering the complexities of "pro-life" stances and selective activism, rooted in Jesus’ Sabbath healings and contemporary ethical dilemmas.
  • “And aren't we all pro life? Maybe. Or not. I can't decide. Maybe the answer is sometimes for some lives, it isn't a matter of for or against, but of which.” – Drew Jackson, [46:11]
• Drew underscores the ancient nature of such questions—who is prioritized, what lives are valued.

"Instructions for the Freedom Struggle" ([55:21])

• Inspired by both the Gospel (Luke 10) and the Freedom Summer/civil rights movement, this poem riffs on Jesus’ sending of the disciples, repurposing it as a manifesto for justice and activism:
  • “Drink to the dregs. Every ounce of hospitality. Scrape each crumb from the plate of love set before you.” – Drew Jackson, [56:03]
  • “Know when to bless. Know when to dissent. There is an art to protest. Draw your lines with precision.” – Drew Jackson, [56:16]

"Ascension" ([69:09])

• Closing the book and episode, this poem is a meditation on the ongoing story, unfinishedness, and the invitation to “sit with the questions.”
  • “And this is what poetry does. It carries us. It invites us into a story, unfinished, saying, write the next stanza. It gives us no plan, no blueprint for the future, but simply asks us to witness, take it in and declare what we have seen.” – Drew Jackson, [69:09]
  • “It leaves us with questions gazing towards heaven for answers, but no answer descends. Its intent to get us to sit with the questions again.” – Drew Jackson, [70:17]

6. On Living with Mystery and Questions

• Drew credits his parents, especially his mother, for giving him “permission to ask questions,” contrasting with a culture of certainty in his evangelical upbringing ([51:38]).
• He resonates deeply with Rilke’s counsel to “live the questions,” noting that Jesus’ way with his disciples was more about opening up questions than giving answers ([51:38], [54:50]).
• “Poetry doesn't give me an answer. It just gives rise to more questions, often more wonderings, more imaginings, more curiosity.” – Drew Jackson, [54:21]

7. Practical Advice for Pastors & Spiritual Leaders

• Read Poetry: Drew encourages pastors to become consumers of poetry to infuse more mystery and imagination into their leadership and preaching ([61:26]).
• Shift in Community Expectation: Advocate for faith communities to gather not for answers, but for journeying together in questions—a move from certainty to wonder ([64:10]).

8. Reading Recommendations

• Lucille Clifton: Drew’s perennial recommendation. Her poetry exemplifies compact wisdom, depth, spirituality, and curiosity ([65:50]).
  • “I wish more people knew about her. I wish more people sat with her work...go sit with Lucille Clifton for a while.” – Drew Jackson, [66:20]

9. Embodied Pairing

• If this conversation were a drink: An Old Fashioned—timeless, familiar yet continually revealing new layers, mirroring the enduring resonance of poetry and ancient texts ([67:49]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Poetry has saved my life.” – Drew Jackson, [09:35]
• “You're taught to approach poetry through this lens of, like, what does this mean? ...but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter....You're losing the magic of what this thing is.” – Drew Jackson, [25:46]
• “The invitation is to set down, to let go of, to...let go of verbiage as I go.” – Drew Jackson, [41:00]
• “Know when to bless. Know when to dissent. There is an art to protest. Draw your lines with precision.” – Drew Jackson, [56:16]
• “This is what poetry does. ...It leaves us with questions gazing toward heaven for answers, but no answer descends. Its intent to get us to sit with the questions again.” – Drew Jackson, [70:17]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Drew’s Context & Upbringing: [01:44]–[05:29]
• Contemplative Practice & Poetry: [05:29]–[10:40]
• Formational Readings & Lineage: [11:01]–[17:53]
• On Poetry Pedagogy & Stereotypes: [22:38]–[27:09]
• Book Origins & Gospel Conversation: [27:57]–[36:24]
• Poem Reading - “These Bags”: [37:12]–[44:49]
• Poem Reading - “Which Lives”: [46:11]–[50:58]
• Living with Questions (Rilke, Jesus, Mystery): [51:24]–[55:05]
• Poem Reading - “Instructions for the Freedom Struggle”: [55:21]–[58:30]
• Advice for Pastors & Poetic Imagination: [61:26]–[65:31]
• Poet Recommendation (Lucille Clifton): [65:50]–[67:21]
• Drink Pairing: [67:32]–[68:54]
• Poem Reading - “Ascension”: [69:09]–[71:04]

Final Thoughts

This episode is a treasure trove for contemplatives, poets, pastors, and anyone drawn to the intersection of spirituality, art, and social engagement. Drew Jackson embodies the invitation to presence, creative reimagining of scripture, and the sacredness of uncertainty. His reflections—and evocative poetry—challenge listeners to draw nearer to mystery, to shed what we carry, and to live (and love) the questions.

Explore Drew Jackson’s work: drewejackson.com
Find show notes & resources: contemplify.com

Summary by Contemplify: Kindling the Examined Life in the World.