Contemplify Podcast — Katherine May on Enchantment, Building Community, Tasting Words, and a Drink of Lake Water

Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Katherine May
Date: November 24, 2024

Overview

In this episode of Contemplify, host Paul Swanson sits down with author and podcaster Katherine May to explore themes of enchantment, community, the contemplative life, “tasting words,” poetry as gut intuition, and the subtle power of attention—as well as how all of these are shaped by family and natural rhythms. Drawing from her bestselling book, Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age, May and Swanson engage in a warm, detailed, and often humorous conversation that invites listeners to slow down, deepen their sense of wonder, and consider how they might cultivate meaningful individual and communal practices—even in a fast-paced and fractured era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Katherine May’s Context

• [02:28] Katherine May shares she’s at home in Whitstable, UK, just back from a writers’ retreat and soon to be flying to San Francisco. She admits to feeling sandwiched and a bit frantic, longing for the slower pace fostered during her retreat.

The Contemplative Life: Personal Longings and Challenges

• [05:35] Katherine May finds herself in “permanent craving” for a contemplative state:

  “There’s a real draw towards the quiet, the contemplative... permanent craving for a life lived in quiet and reflection, a life lived much more slowly, with much more space, made to let everything land... there’s a real need there.”

• Both host and guest discuss the nuanced tension (and synergy) between contemplative yearning and the busyness of raising children.

• [07:24] May highlights that children can invite as much contemplation as they “interrupt” it, recalling middle-of-the-night moments with her baby as “almost prayerful.”

Children and Contemplation: Respecting Space

• [08:19] May recounts a poignant story from Enchantment about taking her son for walks:

  “After a while he said, ‘When I walk like this, I feel like I’m growing branches in my head. And every time you talk, you chop one off.’”

• [10:14] May worries about modern childhood and the frenetic school pace:

  “We are doing harm... by just denying them of any space in their day at all, when they can just let things land, process, think.”

• [13:03] May and Swanson reflect on how past educational environments allowed for downtime, creative freedom, and more gentleness—contrasted with today’s intensity.

Formative Works & Education

• [13:31] May’s ‘syllabus’ for the formation of herself:
  • Children of Green Knowe by Lucy M. Boston: “So much of me springs from that book... it’s about aliveness, eeriness, starkness.”
  • Sylvia Plath’s Ariel: “That was like, wow, weird girls are writing poetry too. This is amazing.”
  • “First and foremost, I’d give kids a notebook and a pen... write everything down that’s in your head and see what poetry you can find in the everyday.”

Poetry as Spiritual Practice: Tasting Words

• [17:16] May admits to feeling undereducated in poetry, but sees it as “a toolkit... something to draw on and to be repeated.” She champions gut over analysis and shares a memorable poem:

  • [19:15] May reads “Everything Is Going to Be All Right” by Derek Mahon:

    “...The sun rises in spite of everything and the far cities are beautiful and bright. I lie here in a riot of sunlight watching the day break and the clouds flying. Everything is going to be all right.”

  • [20:03] Swanson: “That’s amazing. Thank you for introducing me to Derek.”

• May discusses “word tastings” and encourages not just children but adults to “find a poem you love and carry it in your pocket... and learn it by heart.”

• [23:16] May critiques “to be read pile” culture, advocating for slow, spacious, contemplative reading—“about spending an hour on one page... returning to the same idea over and over.”

Art, Wonder, and the Power of Attention

• The conversation turns to museum and art experiences:
  • [25:15] May recalls advice from a Tate Britain curator:

    “When you visit an art gallery, you should see no more than three paintings in one visit... You’ve only got attention for three intense encounters with paintings that you love.”

  • This principle, for May, applies just as much to reading poetry as to experiencing visual art—trust your taste, go deep, not broad.

Anxiety, Wonder, and Practicing Enchantment

• [31:30] Swanson observes how “awakening wonder” can serve as an antidote to both individual and collective anxiety.

• [31:30] May:

  “Wonder is the great queller of anxiety. It’s a leap into context... we see ourselves in the context of a bigger, wider world in which we are actually very small.”

  • Wonder brings humility and scale, softening perfectionist “optimal performance” pressures and “eaten by this anxious sense that we’re never good enough.”

  “Practicing wonder, not just waiting passively for it... is a way that I help my mental health.”

• May connects wonder to attention, arguing that anxiety is a “thief” of presence, pulling us into imagined futures or past regrets.

  “I lay my attention on my attention... anxiety just drags us out of living. It’s a really hard thing to live with.”

Community & Congregation: From Solitude to Shared Space

• [37:41] Swanson introduces May’s chapter “Congregation” as a favorite meditation on spiritual companionship and accountable community.

• Swanson quotes May from Enchantment:

  “Most of all, I want them to hold me to account, to keep me on track, to urge me towards doing good. Holding spiritual belief on my own is lonely.”

• They discuss the challenge of loneliness for spiritual seekers and the hunger for authentic, not just individualistic, spirituality.

• [41:30] May:

  “I think a lot of people are there right now... For that warm feeling of coming together, to be prayerful or to worship is something that’s just missing from loads of our lives. But, yeah, also there is an accountability there, too.”

• May describes the transformative power of collective silence during a writers' retreat (“there is a quality to shared intentional silence—it’s different to sitting on my own”), and how much more people would crave it if they tasted it.

New Forms of Congregation: Zen Peacemakers & Quaker Meetings

• [43:50] Swanson references the Zen Peacemaker order’s “three foundations”—not knowing, bearing witness, and taking action—and their influence on May.

• [44:00] May:

  “Before I witness, I’m taking a position of nothingness. It really helps us to listen that little bit deeper, to witness things that we otherwise would not witness...”

• May shares that she’s recently been attending Quaker meetings for their flat structure, commitment to silence, and communal accountability—all supportive of her yearning for “gathering.”

Family & the Loss of Extended Ties

• [47:41] May shares her grief at losing the tradition of extended weekly family gatherings, and the challenge of recreating community in a fragmented society:

  “For me, that's a real mission: how do I create and maintain that and live intertwined rather than live separately?”

• Both discuss the tension of privacy in families versus the isolation it can breed.

Water as Enchantment & Congregation

• [52:11] Swanson notes the motif of swimming and water in May’s work.

• [52:11] May:

  “I've always been really drawn towards water. For me, it's a gut response... Water is about this fluid joining together of a whole planet. When you're in a body of water, you feel in some way connected to all the other water...”

• She marvels at the science and magic of tides:

  “When we see the tide rise, we're seeing the pull of the moon... what we’re watching is a massive wave that is traveling around the world in concert with the moon. Isn't that just extraordinary? That’s real connection. Practicing wonder is about engaging with what is there. The more you engage, the more wonder you feel... it's magic, but it's a very grounded, very empirically based magic.”

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 05:35 | “There’s a real draw towards the quiet, the contemplative... permanent craving for a life lived in quiet and reflection.” | Katherine May | | 08:19 | “When I walk like this, I feel like I’m growing branches in my head. And every time you talk, you chop one off.” | May’s son, recounted by May | | 19:15 | (Reading Derek Mahon) “Everything is going to be all right.” | Katherine May | | 23:16 | “Let's have a conversation about making big space around books... about spending an hour on one page...” | Katherine May | | 25:15 | “When you visit an art gallery, you should see no more than three paintings in one visit...You’ve only got attention for three intense encounters with paintings that you love.” (paraphrased) | James Hurd, curator, via Katherine May | | 31:30 | “Wonder is the great queller of anxiety. It’s a leap into context... we see ourselves in the context of a bigger, wider world in which we are actually very small.” | Katherine May | | 37:41 | “Most of all, I want them to hold me to account... Holding spiritual belief on my own is lonely.” | Katherine May, from Enchantment | | 44:00 | “Before I witness, I’m taking a position of nothingness. It really helps us to listen that little bit deeper...” | Katherine May | | 52:11 | “Water is about this fluid joining together of a whole planet. When you’re in a body of water, you feel in some way connected to all the other water...” | Katherine May |

Timestamps for Major Sections

• 00:05 – Episode opens and guest introduction
• 02:14 – May’s current context and recent retreat
• 05:35 – Defining the contemplative life, monastic longings, family tension
• 07:24–11:56 – Children and contemplation, “growing branches,” school structures
• 13:03 – Mandatory works for the “formation” of Katherine May
• 17:16–22:49 – Poetry as practice, "tasting words", poem reading
• 23:16–28:40 – Art, slowness, spaciousness in reading and gallery visits
• 31:30–36:27 – Anxiety, wonder, attention as practice
• 37:41–47:13 – Community, "Congregation" chapter, accountable spiritual friendship
• 47:41–51:10 – Family, loss of extended ties, creating chosen community
• 52:11–54:58 – Water as enchantment and embodied connection
• 55:35 – Closing ritual: “If you were to pair this conversation with a drink…”
• 56:08 – May: “I would drink some of your lake water... it’s a lovely way to connect to a place... that’s real integration.”

Tone and Language

Richly contemplative, playful, honest, and invitational. May and Swanson meet in a spirit of curiosity and mutual encouragement, often sharing practical wisdom through story and metaphor, with gentle humor and an openness about their own limitations and longings.

Practical Takeaways

• Reclaim Slowness: Prioritize depth over breadth in reading, art appreciation, and daily life.
• Honor Children’s (and Our Own) Need for Space: Recognize contemplative potential in ordinary moments—don’t rush or fill every silence.
• Practice Wonder Intentionally: Learn about the world; let science and poetry open portals.
• Carry Poetry as Toolkit: Find and repeat poems that resonate—let them work on you.
• Create Community, however imperfectly: Seek or build accountable, reflective congregations—whether familial, chosen, or spiritual.
• Engage with Nature as Sacred: Let natural phenomena (like water, tides, or sunrise) ground and reconnect you—sometimes even literally, with a sip of lake water.

Closing

The episode invites listeners to slow down, savor, and seek enchantment—in nature, in art, and in one another. Katherine May’s voice is a gentle call to cultivate spaciousness and an enlarging sense of attention amid an anxious age. And if you’re thirsty for connection, or at least a taste of place, maybe join her for a symbolic drink of lake water.