Contemplify Podcast Summary

Episode: Susan Murphy on Zen Koans for Facing the Climate Crisis, the Vast Meaning of Country, and Cooling Fires
Host: Paul Swanson
Guest: Susan Murphy
Date: September 8, 2024

Overview of Main Theme

This episode of Contemplify features a profound conversation between host Paul Swanson and Australian Zen teacher, filmmaker, and author Susan Murphy. The dialogue centers on Susan’s latest book, A Fire Runs Through All Things: Zen Koans for Facing the Climate Crisis, exploring the layered wisdom of Zen koans, the deeply rooted meaning of "country" for Indigenous Australians, and how contemplative practice offers tools to meet the climate crisis with clarity, creativity, and compassion. The conversation seamlessly weaves together personal stories, spiritual insight, Indigenous wisdom, and poetic language.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Susan’s Sense of Place & “Country”

• Susan is based on Cloud Mountain, in Kangaroo Valley, New South Wales, Australia.

  • She describes the land as "volatile," energized, and deeply powerful (01:55).

  • “Country” in the Australian Indigenous sense is not “countryside,” but a living, 60,000-year-old web of relationships—“sharing one mind almost” (03:00).

  • The land is identified as Yuin country, traditionally acknowledged out of respect to the original caretakers.

    “Australia is very old. The rocks…are the oldest surface rocks on earth. So there’s that sort of three and a half billion year old sort of sense of time here that’s really direct, comes up through your feet. Especially if you’re barefoot.” — Susan Murphy (04:48)

2. Childhood Awakening & Embodied Experience

• Susan shares a formative mystical experience at age seven, walking barefoot at school.

  • She describes an encounter with “a vast, infinite kind of space… light was streaming… other beings [were] there” (06:04).

  • The experience felt at once astounding and familiar, “utter wonder,” yet indelible and formative.

    “I thought I had a bit of an obligation to report it to my mother. I did my best. I said something like, mom, isn’t it wonderful what we really are?... I need to put this away safely deep inside myself... Not yet. Maybe one day I’ll grow into this further.” — Susan Murphy (10:20)

3. The Contemplative Path & Zen Practice

• Contemplation as ‘not-knowing’ and intimacy with life.

  • For Susan, Zen is “not philosophy,” but a “spiritual practice” rooted in the act of not-knowing—an openness and willingness to 'give way' to what arises (13:09–16:25).

  • Contemplative practice is “the undoing of the sense of that presumed sense of self... you have to not know self in order to discover self.”

    “It’s a really wide field of awareness, field of attention and of attending upon just what is arising with as little as possible, of knowing, trying to grasp after it.” — Susan Murphy (15:22)

  • Memorable image: In Australia, a “Give Way” traffic sign becomes a koan: “Give way, give yourself away, but also open the way by giving way.” (16:00)

4. The Formative Influences on Susan Murphy

• Required works that shaped Susan:

  • Film: Andrei Tarkovsky’s Andrei Rublev—masterful manipulation of time, contemplative and timeless.

  • Place: Childhood cove and rocks near Sydney, unchanged for centuries, ground her sense of presence (20:44).

  • Person: Paulo Freire (Pedagogy of the Oppressed); his concept of “the beautiful daily struggle to be congruent.”

    “The fact that it’s a struggle, is part of its beauty. And the question about congruence. Congruent with what? That remains an open question, even though you instinctively know what he’s talking about.” — Susan Murphy (23:03)

5. River as a Teaching Koan & Metaphor

• Navigating tumultuous times as a river’s through-line:

  • Drawing from a whitewater rafting analogy, Susan explains the need to “keep your attention riveted on the through line” rather than fixating on perceived hazards—requiring team collaboration and field awareness (26:15–29:30).

  • Importance of collaborative awareness and avoiding the magnetizing power of fear and extreme responses.

    “There’s another sort of expression, to hold to the middle… finding that middle is like finding Paulo Freire’s congruence as well.” — Susan Murphy (29:25)

  • Indigenous “cool fire” practice: Equanimity resembles the gentle, controlled burn that regenerates without destroying, a metaphor for wise, compassionate action (30:43).

6. Introduction to Koans and Their Use

• What is a koan?

  • A question or statement that disrupts conventional logic, inviting a total change of perspective (32:42).

  • Examples: “What is the sound of a single hand?” and “What is your original face before your parents were born?”

    “Koan is asking you to turn around completely.” — Susan Murphy (32:55)

  • Foundational koan from Yunmen: “Medicine and sickness heal into each other. The whole earth is medicine. So what is this self?” (35:00)

• The humor and profundity of koans:

  “They should [make you laugh]. It’s so wonderful because it’s sort of like shaking us back to what we’ve always known and weirdly, keep forgetting.” — Susan Murphy (36:04, 36:50)

7. Koans and Zazen: Practice Relationship

• Koans arise from and deepen the contemplative 'not-knowing' state.
  • Sitting in meditation (zazen) prepares a wide, open field where the koan can “drop in and live inside that state.” (37:35–41:13).
  • Koans are carried into life, becoming constant companions, “never fully resolve,” and match the depth of the climate crisis as a collective koan.

8. Facing the Climate Crisis: Deep Adaptation

• Reflection on “Deep Adaptation” (term by Jem Bendell):

  • Sustainability, as previously conceived, is a fiction—requires surrendering to a deeper, more honest reckoning (43:46).

  • The process of honestly encountering grief, fear, and uncertainty is transformative when done communally: “They came out of it a little in love with each other because they are facing it in a loving space.” (45:19)

    “We are the only protectors and we are what needs to be protected and we are what it needs to be protected from.” — Robert Hass, quoted by Susan Murphy (47:18)

• Reconciliation and Relationship to Earth:

  • The word “reconciliation” is questioned by Aboriginal elder Uncle Max Harrison: “How can there be reconciliation when there’s never been a relationship?” The true task is to “reconcile with this”—with the earth itself (49:09–52:03).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Attribution | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------| | 04:48 | “Australia is very old. The rocks…are the oldest surface rocks on earth…comes up through your feet, especially if you’re barefoot.” | Susan Murphy | | 10:20 | “Isn’t it wonderful what we really are?...I need to put this away safely deep inside myself...Not yet. Maybe one day I’ll grow into this further.” | Susan Murphy | | 16:00 | “Give way, give yourself away, but also open the way by giving way. Giving way. Once you start to open yourself to koans, you find them everywhere.” | Susan Murphy | | 23:03 | “The beautiful daily struggle to be congruent....That’s a deep gift.” | Susan Murphy | | 29:25 | “Finding that middle is like finding Paulo Freire’s congruence as well....field awareness which is highly attentive...undazzled, open to beauty...” | Susan Murphy | | 32:55 | “Koan is asking you to turn around completely.” | Susan Murphy | | 36:04 | “They should [make you laugh].” | Susan Murphy | | 47:18 | “We are the only protectors and we are what needs to be protected and we are what it needs to be protected from.” | Robert Hass (via SM) | | 51:07 | “How can there be reconciliation when there’s never been a relationship?...I tell both mobs reconcile with this—[earth].” | Uncle Max Harrison (via SM) | | 53:37 | “I cannot imagine a sweeter and more impossible to describe taste than water.” | Susan Murphy |

Important Timestamps for Key Topics

• 01:55 — Susan describes her home, Cloud Mountain, and the spiritual meaning of “country.”
• 06:04 — Childhood mystical experience and its lifelong unfolding.
• 13:09 — Zen contemplation: “not knowing,” field awareness, “give way.”
• 17:45 — Susan’s formative works: Tarkovsky’s Andrei Rublev, Sydney rocks, Paulo Freire.
• 26:15 — River as koan, finding the “through-line,” relevance for climate crisis.
• 30:43 — Indigenous cool fire: a metaphor for equanimity and regenerative action.
• 32:42 — Introduction to koans.
• 35:00 — Yunmen’s koan: “the whole earth is medicine.”
• 37:35 — Interrelationship of Zazen (meditation) and koans.
• 43:46 — Deep adaptation and the end of “sustainability.”
• 47:18 — Quoting Robert Hass: “We are the only protectors…”
• 49:09 — Uncle Max Harrison: “Reconcile with this [earth].”
• 53:37 — If this episode were a drink: rainwater.

Tone & Language

• Warm, open, poetic, and intellectually rigorous, reflecting both Susan’s Zen lineage and Paul’s hospitable hosting.
• Conversation punctuated with laughter, humility, vivid metaphors, and gentle encouragement.
• A willingness to dwell in mystery, paradox, and deep questions, matched by practical, earthy wisdom.

Practical Takeaways

• Contemplative practice—meeting the unknown with presence, not-knowing, and trust.
• Koans—used as living, walking companions and as invitations to perceive reality differently, especially in ecological crisis.
• Facing Crisis—leaning into community, love, and creative, poetic language as a way to transform fear and paralysis.
• Relationship with Land—orientation toward “country” as relationship, ongoing reciprocity, and learning from Indigenous wisdom.

Final Notes

• Recommended Beverage: Rainwater (“I cannot imagine a sweeter and more impossible to describe taste than water.” — Susan Murphy, 53:37)
• Closing word: The episode ends with a call to congruence, intimacy with earth, and an invitation to walk contemplatively and joyfully amidst challenge.

For full show notes, resources, and more contemplative content, visit contemplify.com.