B (3:31)

Yeah, it was a solid 8, 9. It was, it was pretty good.

A (3:36)

Little do they know that I've just spent five minutes rehearsing trying to, trying to get that right and I still couldn't get it higher. And I have to. So that your surname, you're French, but the surname doesn't sound French.

B (3:49)

Yeah, it's Armenian background from my dad's side, obviously. But obviously I'm, I'm fully French. I just have the look of an Armenian, I guess, and the name, you

A (3:59)

know, and how did umpires used to call that one out? You know, game set.

B (4:03)

I had, I had some crazy, crazy one, like touch taken. I had, I had everything, especially in college as well. That was quite funny in the States. Some, some very good ones. Yeah.

A (4:14)

And look, we're going to, we're going to get into it all, obviously a relatively young career still, Max. And you know, I had had the pleasure of spending some time with you out, out in Sydney at United cup. And you know, for me, you know, a fascinating story to see someone so young who still could be playing. You know, you got, you're young, you, you look young. You know, you got the young Lux. You, you, you, I'm sure still play very well. But now coaching a top 10 player in the world in Vicky Umboko. But as we all, we always do on the podcast, I, Tennis is, I guess, the thing that brings us all together. Right. And, and I, I'm always fascinated by the stories into tennis. You know, how, you know, here we are traveling, drinking a coffee in Australia to Doha, to this place, to that place. But how did it get into your blood? If you take, go back kind of 20, 25 years, how did it all start?

B (5:08)

Wow. So, yeah, I started tennis when I was like two and a half or three years old with my brother. I have an older brother that is five years older than me. He. So he started to play tennis and I got into him because of him. And then, since then, I mean, it's been my, like pretty much my whole Life. So yeah, I did, I did like everything you can imagine in terms of tournaments in south of France and then I also travel like Europe wise. Then I played a little bit of juniors. I was always like in the top, yeah top like 5, 10 in my group age especially, especially at a young age. But at the same time you know like in France when you're like ranked let's say five in your, in your group age, well you don't get the same help from the federation. It's always a bit, a bit tricky. So I, I had my parents support and then yeah, so I, I played, I played pretty much until I was like 20. Then I, I took a break. I went to college in the States.

A (6:12)

Yep.

B (6:13)

I went to Baylor. I graduated from Bader 2017. Before that I was ranked around, around like 6, 700 ATP, went to college, got my degree, amazing experience. And then yeah and then after I came back, came back home, I started to play all over again. So without any points, going through qualities in the middle of Portugal like Tunisia like all these, all these 15Ks and, and 25Ks and yeah and then I went up to 500 ATP around 5, 5, 30 and then covet, covet came. I was 26 years old at that time, so still quite young but at the same time you know, when you're like 500, you don't, you don't make a living out of it. So I was kind of like questioning myself like what do I really want to do instead and stuff and, and then yeah, Covid hit so lockdown, all of that and I was, I was like okay, maybe it's the right time for me to take another path. I wanted to, to start coaching but didn't know where and how to start. So My parents live in, in south of France. They live close from Morato Group Academy. So I decided to go there and do my degree as a, as a coach like French French coaching. So I went there but when, when I went there I was still ranked like 500, you know, so I was still playing quite, quite okay. So I did my degree but at the same time I, I was a hitting partner for all these guys like TT Pass, Jeremy, Chardi, Medvedev that I played also in future and, and also a bunch of girls. So I was, I was hitting with Coco Goff, Anisimova, all these girls and especially Azarenka that came to practice there. I knew her coach at that time and yeah for me I didn't know much if I wanted to coach on, on the men's Side. On a woman's side. But I knew on the woman's side you also start when you are that young, you also started very often as a, as a healing partner. So for me it was kind of like the path also, you know, to learn gradually, to follow, follow that. And I was, I was fine with that. And, and yeah, I had one practice with Azarenka. She. She kind of liked it and liked me. And then, and then she like I got a call from her agent like 30 minutes after and she, and, and he was like, okay, she, she wants you to come for preseason. Can you do that? And then it picked up and, and from there I, I started with her to do few weeks and then it turned into month and then in turn into okay, can you actually travel more

A (8:53)

and after now you haven't been home since.

B (8:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's tough. It's. It's, it's tough in that sense. But. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot of travel.

A (9:04)

Yeah, it's. So going back to, to. Whereabouts in France are you from?

B (9:09)

I'm from Exon Prince, close to Marseille.

A (9:12)

Very nice. Yeah. Well, I know that you're a Marseille football fan. My research tells me. Well, I, I'm Newcastle United.

B (9:22)

Yeah.

A (9:23)

So we, we did play you this year in the Champions League, but we won't talk, we won't talk about that

B (9:29)

today, but we will.

A (9:31)

I will ask you. Deserbi deserve you like him. You know, he's gone. He's obviously trying to keep spurs up in England.

B (9:39)

He's a character man. I don't know but I feel like he, he, he was suiting quite well to like, to like the team, you know, to Olympic. The Marseille. Like he's is a little bit crazy and that's what people like in Marseille, I guess, you know, like super fans and stuff.

A (9:54)

Well, yeah, I don't feel he's the right man to try and keep a team up in the league, you know, like.

B (10:00)

Yeah, but who can, who can in Marseille?

A (10:03)

Yeah, that's, that's true. But it, and if you go back there to, to that time because. So I, I actually played for a club in Saint Tropez actually.

B (10:13)

Okay. Yeah.

A (10:14)

Club tennis many years ago. So I used to play a lot of matches in that area and I used to talk without a lot of knowledge because. And you play these events. I played German league tennis, but I also played French league tennis and I would just. I had this theory that French tennis was just incredible because of the clubs, you know. And I, I couldn't believe I could turn up to this club and I had so many people to practice with who wanted to play because they wanted to play for the team at the weekend and not embarrass themselves. And there was this community feeling and everyone wanted to play tennis. And I then go back to the UK and I'd be like, well, nobody wants to play tennis unless, unless you say you're playing as a professional. Coaches don't really play nobody. And it just culturally was so different. So you're going to tell, you can tell me with actual knowledge how good is that system? And you know, what are the real positives? And I guess there's maybe one or two flaws maybe. And if they are, what are they? What are those?

B (11:15)

Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good topic. I mean, French, French tennis in general, the level and the amount, as you said, the amount of players we have, it's, it's insane. As you said, it started in the club and you have like a bunch of coaches that are actually still in shape and can play at a really high level. And I feel like it's also, yeah, it's, it's something that people look up to in a way in France and they want to have a coach that is still able to, to hit the ball well and, and stay competitive, you know. So as you said, like we have pretty much in France you can play, you can play like, like, like tournaments pretty, pretty much like two or three tournaments a week. And I'm, I'm talking about level, like it's called. The CNGT is like national, like grand tournament, like the big, the big like tournaments in France and you can play like an actual circuit, it's a circuit on, on its own. And, and the level is like, if you want to win one of these tournaments, you have to play like top, top 300, ATP level. And so we have, we have a range of players. I'm talking about the highest level in France, but the range of players is just amazing. So, so then you have the club matches as well. There are as you know, like, very, very successful with a lot of, also for foreigners coming and trying to, to play those matches. But yeah, in general, the French system in terms of tournaments and players is, is quite unique, I think.

A (12:51)

And, and the, the other thing that I always took from French, like I remember playing in juniors as well. There was so many juniors, you know, like, I used to, like, we used to have a bit of a joke actually. You don't want to see you don't want to see F next to the name, you know, like, when you went and played like a. A junior tournament, obviously I go like tobs. That was my, like, career highlight. I won the. I won.

B (13:13)

The doubles at TOBS are nice, you

A (13:16)

know, like, you know. Yeah. And the same year that Juan Carlos Ferrero actually won the. A Bit of a Funny Story. So I, me and my partner won. Won that.

B (13:27)

Okay.

A (13:28)

It's crazy. I mean, it was 1994 and that's

B (13:32)

my year, actually,

A (13:35)

so you weren't there to witness it. But in the qualifying, we played Andy Ram from Israel and his partner. Then in the first round main draw, we played Xavier Malise and Olivia from Belgium.

B (13:50)

Amazing player.

A (13:51)

And then we played Marat Saffin and Artem Dera Pasco in the quarterfinals. And then anyway, some Swedish guys in the semis. And then we played Fernando Gonzalez and his partner in the final. Now, Juan Carlos Ferrero won the singles and beat Fernando Gonzalez in the final. So fast forward to maybe it was 2020, and I was at a Futures with a British player, a player that I was working with at the time. He was like, 300 singles. Evan Hoyt.

B (14:22)

Yeah.

A (14:23)

And. And Evan was playing against Carlos Alcaraz in an age at age 16 in the quarterfinal, semi finals of the Futures. But another couple of players I were with Johnny Binding and Pete both. Well, they won the doubles and then Carlos won the singles. So. And, And I actually went up to Juan Carlos and said, look, this is like all these years on, you know, if back in Tarbs, you know, we won the doubles, you won the singles, my players are winning the doubles, you're winning the singles. You know, you might not remember me. And he. And I, like, got a photo and he just kind of wasn't overly bothered. I thought it was quite a good story, but he just kind of. He just kind of looked at me as if. But what I did ask him at the time, at the start that week, as I said, look how, how good is Carlos? You know, like, I've obviously. He said, no, no, he's already top 50 level. He's already top 50 level. At 16 years old, he said, he's already top 50. You know, like, that's what I'm doing. Anyway, I'm going off, going off on a tangent. But the one thing with the French players, Max, that, that we always thought is how flary they were. So, like, you speculate, right? And you go, well, why is that? Are they not. Are they not overcoached? You start questioning yourself in, in Our country coach, you know. You know, and there was this kind of a saying in, in the uk, Fabrice Santoro, people would say, well, he would never be able to come through the British system because people would say, you can't play like that. So why do we have all these kind of extravagant ways of playing tennis with French players? Why do you think?

B (16:01)

I guess, I guess it's like a, like a culture thing. I would say maybe the level of coaching at a really young age. But also we are also, as a kid, we always try to spend a lot of time on court and playing mini tennis games. French people are very like, how can I say that without sound terrible, but like fucking around in a way, you know, when we play and it's, and we play with a lot of like hand touch games, you know, and, and that brings a certain variety in our game in a way, I guess. But also like, technically in France, I think the coaches in general, they do, they do a really good job. Like my coach, when I was very young, from a very young age when I, when I started like playing more and more, from let's say 6 to 12 years old, I had the same coach and, and I felt he developed my technique in, in a really good way.

A (16:57)

Yeah.

B (16:57)

And I had a lot of people telling me, you play like a French guy with a lot of touch and stuff, like very. Yeah, skill, you know, and, but yeah, I guess I would say our culture, the, the way that, that we also spend time on court because we, we have that in France, it's very easy to sell. The French pair, like mentally is, is kind of weak, but he's very talented and he knows how to, to manage the ball around. So, you know, we can be dangerous that way. But yeah, I guess it's more like a culture thing. And also the, the level of coaching and, and, and developing players at a young age, even though everyone has his own technique, you will rarely see a French player having a bad technique, in my opinion.

A (17:45)

Okay, and what about the mental part? The mental weakness? Because that again, when I was younger, we used to cut. We used to call it the French tank. Yeah. Which, which, which is, but was almost like the French tank was almost for us actually, as Brits. Yeah, it was almost. They made you feel like you weren't trying.

B (18:09)

Yeah.

A (18:09)

And then you got like, you got roped in and before you knew, before you know it, before you know it, you were kind of, ah, this matches, this match has won. And then you, you're not focused anymore. And then these, these bloody French kids would then go and like break us back. And before you knew it, we were losing our mind and we, we'd been done by the French tank. You know, Is that, is that a thing? Is this mental weakness?

B (18:35)

I can relate to that. I mean, to be, to be quite honest, I don't think I was like that. Like, I never, I never tanked matches or I never pretend to tank matches. And you know, I wasn't, I would say, built like that. But, you know, I think it comes down also, like, I went couple weeks ago before Indian Wells, actually I went to Oray, you know. Already?

A (18:57)

Yeah, yeah, the 12 tournament.

B (19:00)

I was there because my girlfriend works for your next and she was doing the scouting over there. So I went with her before jumping in the plane to Indian Wells and I watched the kids. And again, you see a lot of kids at 12 years old, amazing technique, playing some great tennis. But as soon as it starts to get a little bit rusty and you have to hustle and fight and, and go through it, you know, they just run away and, and then you see some Czech guys, some Russians, some other countries, like they are here and they're gonna die on court, you know. And I think also it's, it's a mental, like, it's a, it's a habit that we have as, as French kids in a way. But at the same time it's also come down to like sponsors, for example, when, when you're young in France and you play quite okay, you get a shit amount of clothes, a shit amount of rackets and everything gets easy, you know, and, and you miss a little bit of that anger. And okay, like, I'm going to, I'm going to grind and I'm going to hustle and maybe I'm going to earn my way, like. And you see I'm talking about the Czech guys because I saw, I saw a Czech player there that was 12 years old and the way was acting on court, how, how mature the kid was on court and handling the momentums, you know, that we, that we final saw at the, at the highest level with players, you know, like top 10 players, like highs and lows. And the way he navigate through it and the way he answered that at his age, I was like on top of the fact that he was, he was playing extremely well, but I was, I was actually very, very shocked. And the guide, you can tell, he, he was, he was wearing Nike shirt with the Adidas short and he, he has a, he had a racket, like a Babola racket with the, with the Headbag, you know, and then you're like, okay, if he was this kid in France, he would get sponsored and he would, you know, everything would come much easier. And I think.

A (20:58)

And then agents as well. Even worse. Sorry, the agents as well. Coming. Yeah, yeah.

B (21:04)

But, you know, yeah. At the end of the day, it drags you away from. From the essence of why you're on the tennis court and, and what you have to go through, you know, So I think, I think for me it's a big topic because this is something that I experienced also as a kid and, and then went on into juniors and because I was. I was top players in my group age in France, in terms of sponsor, I would get pretty much everything, you know, and sometimes you. You lose. You lose yourself a bit in there. And as you say, like agent and like, you can be put. Because you play quite, quite good. You can be put up there even though you haven't done anything yet, in my opinion.

A (21:46)

It's so interesting it's like that because I think there's a. There's another point to this, which is so hopefully to explain my point. Luke Savile. Remember. Don't remember Luke.

B (21:59)

I remember.

A (22:00)

So he's your age, I think.

B (22:02)

Yeah, yeah.

A (22:03)

Now, Luke, I remember because I coached Josh Ward Hibbert and you know, I was with Leo.

B (22:09)

I played Joshua.

A (22:11)

Where did you play him? Because I've always known your name, so I've seen your name.

B (22:16)

So I played him actually. It's so funny. I played him in doubles in Bahrain, 15k. I was. I was playing with Julian Canina from Belgium in doubles and we play against him and Liam Brody.

A (22:32)

My big thing with Luke was I remember watching him play. Maybe it was actually the year Liam. Liam Brody ended up making final of junior Wimbledon. I want to say 2011. 2011. 20. But. But watching Luke that year, he lost to Luke in the final. But when I watched Luke, as good as Luke was, my concern if I was like scouting talent, my concern was he was so good mentally that I felt he was winning because of his maturity.

B (23:01)

Yeah.

A (23:02)

And I felt that, like maybe some of the other players, when they caught up a bit with that maturity, had a bit. Had more game.

B (23:10)

Okay.

A (23:11)

And you know, like, that would just sometimes that. That's just one of my. So I guess you have things, right, like confirmation biases we all have in this life that we then it sticks in our mind. So that for me, when I see youngsters who are really good and like mature, I sometimes wonder, are they winning now because of their maturity? And is that maybe an upside that someone else is going to gain on them? Yeah, over, over the next few years, a bit like, probably like I, I won certainly on the double score, but we won quite a bit when we were younger. I was like 6 foot when I was 12, so I would, I was winning certain matches because of my size, you know, and then I maybe didn't develop some of the other skills and tools that the smaller player did. You know, it's all. That's why I think talent scouting is fascinating, because for that reason, I mean, you get your generational talents, of course, that any, anyone can see. You know, I think any of us could. When I saw Alcaraz at 13, 14, and anybody, I saw Andy Murray at 12. But there's, yeah, it's quite an interesting topic as well. Just in terms of whether that mental maturity at a young age is a good thing. It's obviously a good thing, but is that maybe something that maybe catches up in future? I don't know what you think.

B (24:29)

Yeah, yeah, it can, I mean, it can, you're right, it's a good point. But, and it's very tough because we all evolve like differently. Maybe as you say, like the physical part is also, is, is also huge. Like, I remember when I was young, there were so many players that were pretty good, I think, because of their fitness and, and the fact that they were very tall at a young age compared to me, where I was like extremely short as a, as a kid. But then it, it catches up, you know, if you don't develop your technique, obviously your mental, your tactical aspect also so many compounds, like aspects, you know, that can, that can also trigger at some point, but definitely it's not also because you're, you're very good at a young age that you're gonna, you're gonna end up being, being successful on the tour. We, we know, we know so many players that played extremely well in the juniors and under, and then they never, ever made it, you know, so, so

A (25:31)

Max Marseille to Waco, Texas. What a contrast, you know. You know, like, that is like, that is a serious contrast. So how, how have you, how did you manage that contrast? How was, you know, I was in lsu. I don't know if we spoke about that. Yeah, many years. Yeah, big a big advocate of college tennis. But yeah, Baylor, Baylor's always been a powerhouse. How was, how was your time there?

B (25:59)

It was, it was amazing. I mean, I, I, I developed mostly as a, as a man, you know, there, but also on the, on the fitness part was was quite, quite a lot. We had a lot of morning workouts, very tough sessions. Our school and our coaches at that time, well, it was almost made like a military kind of training. So it was, it was very tough. But I learned a lot. And also, I mean, I would, I would definitely suggest to, to parents and players at a young age when you're 16, 17, 18, to look for that path because now we see a lot of players coming out on tour and, and, and making it and having their time of their life after, after their college career and when they go pro. And for me, it's like if you're not top elite player at 16, like Zverev or Bona Chorich or Alcaraz senior, these guys, you should definitely like, consider going to college because the level is, is extremely high. And this is something also in France we struggle a lot and we didn't have a lot of French players going there until like now because we always thought that, okay, if you go to college, you're going to give up your, your tennis career after. Which is, which is completely wrong in a way. So, yeah, my time, my time was, was amazing. I, I went to the biggest schools. I had, I had my scholarship. Everything was, was paid. It was, I mean, we had a lot of budgets, so we were like traveling a lot, like east coast, west coast. So we've seen, we see a lot. And you, and you also play not only for yourself, you play for a team. And I think it also helps to grow as a, as a human being, you know, in a way. But yeah, I have a funny fact actually about that. It's like When I was 18, I had a lot of school trying to reach out, you know how it is, and trying to get me into the team. And I was like, always, no, no, no, I deny. I don't want, I don't want, I don't want to go to college. And when I was 20, playing professional, I was in, in Qualis of a, of a challenger in Geneva, last round of Qualis. And I played Radu albot. He was 160 in the world. I was at the time, I think 7, 700, 750, whatever. I'm up 7, 6, 40 indoors. Can't win the A game. I lost 7661. I was destroyed. And after the match I get, I get a text from Beiro's coach and he's like, okay, I watched your match, I think you play great, blah, blah, blah. I would like for you to come and visit the school. I will offer for you just to catch a flight in the next days. You come for four days and you, and you visit the school and then you. So then you have a certain view on what's like college, you know, like tennis, college, college students. Sorry. And, and at that time I was like talking to my coach and we were discussing about, oh, maybe you, you can take that path and go to college and then maybe mature and see also and get a degree. Because for me it was important also to have a degree, improve my English. See. See also a different side of life, I guess. And so when I got that message, I was like, okay, full on, you know what? I'm gonna catch a flight. So I caught a flight. I think the very next day I went to better. I visited the school and I saw the, I saw the facilities they have compared to Europe. It's, it's insane. You have all the physios you own. You had so many gyms, you have the cafeteria as well. And everything evolves around the athletes, you know, and to me, to me it was amazing. And I was like, okay, you know what? I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to college. So I sign up. So this was back in like, what, October? And I signed up and I played my first college match in, in January. So it was, it was very, like, very short transition. But obviously at the beginning was, it was quite tough, especially with the English, you know, with the barrier and stuff. But it was after, after a few months I felt like, I felt good. And it was, it was the best decision of my life, I think, in terms of like when I was 20ish.

A (30:20)

You know, the paths are, the sliding doors moments is. Yeah, it's incredible. You win that match, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe then you don't have the humility. Right. If you win that match, you, you know, we had that with Josh Ward Hibbert, actually. Yeah. Because he, he was all signed to go to Texas A and M. Yeah, that was always, that was always the path. Always talked about that. And then he made quarterfinals of the singles at the 2012 Aussie Open Juniors and won the doubles. And then the LTA said, okay, we're going to offer him this package, our top package to support him. And I said, but we sat in a meeting one month ago and agreed that college was the right route. Yeah. What's changed? Yeah, well, he's top 10 in the world in juniors now. He's done that. Yeah, but he was, he's the same player. He's just, he's just had an okay. Result. Yeah. But we kind of feel we have to, you know, now that he's ranked like this.

B (31:29)

Yeah.

A (31:29)

He's political anyways, and he, and so his sliding doors moment took him away from college because he had this one great result and, and then he's now a professional basketball player.

B (31:43)

Wow. That's insane. I, I didn't know that. Okay. Wow. That's. That's a good turn. Turn around, I guess, huh?

A (31:50)

Yeah. So the slightly he ended up going, he won a couple of futures. He got to maybe 500. But then when he went into the LTS system, it didn't suit him really. He ended up going to Loughborough University. And then he. When he was at Loughborough University playing tennis.

B (32:06)

Yeah.

A (32:06)

He started playing a bit for their basketball team. Yeah, he was always a good basketball player. And then.

B (32:11)

Yeah, he was so tall.

A (32:13)

Yeah. And. And, and then he's had. He's still, still now professional basketball player actually in Newcastle in, in the uk. So it makes a good living place for Great Britain in the Commonwealth Games or England in the Commonwealth Games. And he's, and he's doing all of those things. So it's a, it's a, it's amazing how, how, how it happens. And now before I move on from college, because I want to move into your coaching. Yeah. National titles, Bayless, always in and around them. Any

B (32:40)

NCAA semis? Yeah, we were ranked 1 in the country throughout pretty much the whole year with Virginia. We were like 1, 1 and 2 and. But actually we lost in semis against them. I think that that year in 2015, there were one. We were three or they were. We were one, there were three. Something like that. I don't remember. But yeah, we lost in semis against them. We won the Big 12, like conference a few times. Yeah, I mean, we had, we had success for sure. Like, we, we were ranked top 10 each year. Good.

A (33:15)

Yeah, it's still, it's this very. We made NCAA Final Four at lsu and it's still, it's still. For me, granted, I didn't have this amazing playing career, but I did play Wimbledon a couple of times. It's still by far the most amazing experience I've ever had. Yeah, just didn't. Like we played UCLA in Georgia.

B (33:36)

Yeah. Yeah, just.

A (33:37)

Just before Georgia were playing Old Miss in the other semi final.

B (33:40)

Yeah. So in the stands. Amazing. I, I had, I had tough matches there as well, actually. Against Georgia. I won, I won an epic match and I turned around, I showed the BU sign. You know, it was, it was, it was, it Was great, great times. Yeah.

A (33:58)

It makes us do all sorts of things. So you look, you've had a, you've had a, you've had a, a decent playing career. But we, if I take you forward, it's like when we start talking about the names like Azarenka, you know, obviously Vicky, who you, who you, who you're working with now, you know, these, these players, obviously Vicky's not there yet, but no Grand Slam champions, world number ones. You know, when we, when you look at yours, it's somewhat moderate, you know, in terms of that, but you want to get into coaching. You've gone the hitting partner route and, and it's like, it seems to almost be. I guess my starting question on it is, is that almost the only way if you haven't, if you haven't played.

B (34:43)

Yeah.

A (34:44)

Or coached to that level.

B (34:47)

Yeah.

A (34:48)

Is the only way of getting in, do you think, almost as a hitting partner?

B (34:54)

I don't know. I can just talk for myself. Yeah. I was her hitting partner at a, at a start. We obviously chatted and we chat and talk a lot about her games during practices. And I, and I felt, I felt like she kind of liked the way I saw her game and what I thought was needed as well to implement and try to work on. And she gave me my chance. That's, that's about that, you know. And, and at some point she was

A (35:22)

like, okay, after how long after. How long after?

B (35:26)

I would say a good four months. Like, like traveling with her. Yeah, she gave me my chance. And, and yeah, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't easy. I was, I was, I was starting, so obviously I would, I was making mistakes for sure. I'm still making mistakes. I don't pretend to know everything by far. For me, it was, it was a learning process. And she, and she also knew it in a way, but she was also at a stage of her career. She was like 31 years old, you know, come coming back on tour after, after some time off. And, and yeah, she, she trusted me. And, and, and I felt like I was, I was, I was working hard and trying to always learn, and I had my views on her game. And even though, yes, she was ranked number one in the world in the past and had tremendous success, I felt there are, there were many stuff that can be improved. She wasn't done, you know, and yeah, I just, I just went day by day and tried to, and tried to make her better in a way.

A (36:34)

How does that conversation go with someone like Azarenka asking you to become the coach, does she, does she do that directly with you? Is that something that happens through the agent? Is that, how does that happen?

B (36:50)

Yeah, so what happened is at that time she was working with the French coach that now coach, Gail Moffiz. His name is Dorian Decroi. Is.

A (37:01)

I met him in Indian Wells.

B (37:02)

Oh, you did? Amazing guy. We, we are, we are very, we. We are very, very close. Good. Good guy. I used to play future with him. We went in the middle of Turkey together to play Futures and stuff. And at that time, he, he was coaching her. But the thing is he, he. I mean, he has a family. He had three kids. He couldn't do 40 weeks on the road, like, you know how it is. So we decided at some point to split the weeks. But we, but we, but we proposed that to, to Vika, you know, and at first she's like, yeah, why not? And, and, and at some point, like, she, I mean, they had their, their, their things and he went on, on a different direction. And, and from there she basically, like, asked me, no, I want you to be my only coach. Like, I want you to coach me. You know, because at first I was more as a assistant coach in a way. I would say. Yeah, you know, I mean, hitting partner, then assistant coach. And then it transitioned to, to actually like full time coaching, you know, so it came, but it came pretty, like, pretty natural, I would say, on her, on her side again, she felt, she felt the need, you know, she also, like, told me that she, that she trusted me and she, and she wanted to. Yeah, to, to, to take on, you know, and, and for me, obviously at first he was, he was. It was a bit scary because you're like working with, with top athletes, right, and someone that has been at the top. So it's, it's a lot of pressure. But in a way I felt like, okay, like, this is an opportunity for me and I didn't want to mess it up. And I've, I'm. I've tried. At least I've tried. I've tried hard, in my opinion, and tried to try to help her the best, the best I, I could, I can.

A (38:51)

And at that stage, Max, are you, do you have, do you feel like you've got your own philosophies? Do you feel like you've got your way of working or I guess you've kind of been thrown into this world from your playing career? How much of that is. You're just going with what you feel and then kind of fast forward now six years.

B (39:14)

Yeah.

A (39:14)

How much do you Feel you've now maybe evolved as a coach and maybe have some sort of stronger philosophies that you believe in?

B (39:21)

Yeah, I think, I think at first, you know, the fact that I was playing at a quite decent level also helped me to transition into the coaching career, especially reading the games and, and, and also, you know, I was like, I was watching. I mean, I'm still watching tennis, like 24, 7. I'm watching every single match. And I think it helped me to build also my, my, my philosophy as a, as a coach and what I believe and what's, what is important right now on the woman's tour. And it evolves every single day. Because if you look at like the WTA like 10 or 15 years ago compared to now, the game has changes, like, drastically, you know.

A (40:04)

So what are the biggest changes, do you think?

B (40:06)

Well, to me, the serve, servant, foreign, the surf plus one return, plus one is like. If you compare from 10, 10 years ago or 15 years ago to now, like the girls, now they are serving bombs like, like the top girls. If you look at them, it's like they serve really big and the first shot is becoming so important as well. But that's just one of other examples that we can find. But to me, the surf plus one is massive. I think for me, the fact that I was playing before helped me also to build my own identity as a coach. And now for sure, six years later, or, yeah, five, six years later, I, I feel that I have more skills. Also the way I, I communicate with the player and, and when to say something, when. When to shut up also. Which also changes depending on the players you are working with. Right? Everyone is different. And I'm not coaching Vicky and Boko the same way I coach Azarinka, you know, because they are like different human.

A (41:15)

I've just got a couple of things I want to ask you before I want to. Want to jump into Vicki is. Do you have any regret so far in your coaching career? Is there anything that you go, I wish that I've done that I hadn't have said that or hadn't have done.

B (41:29)

I don't know. It's a tricky question. Any regrets? Yes, maybe some. Sometimes I felt like I didn't trust myself enough because in a way I knew I was young and I was a young coach. So like, sometimes I would doubt myself, maybe because I was that young, but. But looking back, I'm like, man, I think you will pretty much, like, spot on. And I know it sounds arrogant, but sometimes I felt like, well, maybe I should I could have done that or I could have said that as well, you know, and which now it's a bit more different. I am, I'm taking maybe more risk in my coaching way, you know, especially during matches with attention and the nerves. I'm going maybe more into, into it when before. At times I could be a little bit more. It's not shy but you know, a little bit more like doubt, doubtful in a way, you know.

A (42:27)

And is this during matches?

B (42:29)

Yeah. Or doing matches or also if I had like ideas and sometimes yeah, maybe, maybe not this and. But for me it's, it's, it's, it's a trial and fail like, like a fail on trial process, you know. And you keep, and you have to always keep evolving and, and as I said like I'm still making mistakes and, and, and, and I, and I'm. And I'm fine with that in a way because it's who, who doesn't.

A (42:53)

You know.

B (42:53)

And, and, and I have my values and I have my belief. Sorry. And, and I, and I, and I try to stick to it more and more. I, I would say so. I don't know if it's a regret or anything, but in the past I, I could get a little bit more tense within myself in that way. I don't know if that makes sense.

A (43:12)

No, no, it does. It's interesting Max, because when you were talking earlier as a 26 year old starting or being involved in and Vika's team, you know who you know, certainly from the outside, she's got a bit of an aura. You know, she was a lot, you know, like. And she's obviously around the Williams's and serene, all of that. You know, you can think of these iconic matches and if we take all the 26, 6 year olds in the world, you've got to be very high percentile of one of the ballsy ones to be able to get your belief across the board to somebody like that. You know, like the largest percentage of 26 year olds in the world wouldn't even ever even dream of having the confidence to start telling a former world number one something. Do you know what I mean? No, I agree that, that, that's like a real skill that you, you, you clearly have.

B (44:09)

Yeah, I guess. And I mean also it's the, the fact that our relationship like coaches, players last for close to four years which I think as you know on the, on the WTAs is pretty big. Right? Yeah, it's not always like that.

A (44:27)

So knighthood, it's like a night,

B (44:32)

it's quite funny because I'm, I mean, yes, as you said, it's, it's, it's ballsy in a way as a, as a 26 years old. But looking back, I didn't, I didn't get to the point where, okay, I was, I was doubting myself to like, oh, no, I can't do it. Like, it wasn't about that, but it was at times. You know, we had, as, you know, we had like struggles and ups and downs and, But I was like questioning myself a lot. And it's draining also in a way. You know, it's, it's when you, when you come out of, of, of a working relationship like that, it's, it's, it's not easy also to, to like, bounce back and, and get into a new project. I, I would say.

A (45:14)

What do you think the biggest skills

B (45:16)

and needed to work on the Tour adaptation? I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.

A (45:22)

It does for sure to me. Constantly.

B (45:25)

Constantly. You need to constantly adapt. You need, I mean, we are traveling on, on all continents and you, you're facing different opponents. Sometimes you play the same player the first week and the second week, all of a sudden it's a, it's a different match. And I mean, we can talk for hours, but you need to constantly adapt to something new and something unexpected. And if you are not. To me, this is the best advice I could give also to young coaches. If you're not ready to sacrifice also a lot of your private life and your, how can I say, yeah, yeah, your private life and put your own life aside and I'm sure you can relate on that. If you're not ready for that and the fact that you need to adapt to different things in your career, if you're not ready for that, you're gonna lose track and you're not gonna stay in that field.

A (46:34)

And, and now we talked off, we talked off air. You obviously, you guys been doing a bit of work with Carlos Rodriguez this week at Barcelona, ready for the clear court season.

B (46:43)

Yeah.

A (46:44)

And I, and I asked you, you know, he obviously spent a lot of time, he's, he's a big name coach, I guess on the tour, spent a lot of time with some, some big players. And I asked you what, what makes a good coach, you know, spending time with someone like that, you know, what is it when you're around these, these, these people and you've got, you know, whim for set. You see, you see a lot of them kind of working with a Lot of top players. What are the. What are the things, in your opinion, that make. Make that coach.

B (47:16)

Yeah.

A (47:16)

Successful.

B (47:18)

Yeah, I think first experience. I think this is something you cannot teach. They have a lot of experience. I mean, Carlos with Justinena, he won I don't know how many Slams, but they had. They had a tremendous success. And he's very. He's very calm, he works hard, he's humble. He sees the game very precisely. Technically. I think he has a lot of stuff to bring tactically. I was. I was very pleased also to talk. I'm. I'm pleased to talk with him about a lot of tactics, especially on clay. But the way, for me, when you. When you define a good coach is also the way you communicate to the player and the way you approach and how you can send the message across, you know, because we can. We can all say pretty much the same thing, but it's how. How you. You identify it and how you. How you send it through, and that goes through the player, because at the end of the day, you can say whatever you want. If the player doesn't really listen or it doesn't go through and you don't work through it, it's only blah, blah, blah, you know?

A (48:33)

Yeah.

B (48:33)

And I feel like he has. He has that kind of maybe an aura, I would say, in. In a coach that goes through the audience and. And catches people, you know, And. And to me, this is what I see on. On few coaches on tour or where I feel like, okay, like, this guy knows. Knows his stuff, you know?

A (48:56)

Is that because. Sorry, I'm gonna have to be careful on this subject because I could talk for hours on this subject. I could question you on this subject a lot. Is. So my. My. My theory on this or philosophy on this is people always ask, who's the best coach, who's the best coach, who's the best coach, who's a. And for me, there's a. There's a best coach or there's a good coach for a player. Yeah. At. At a certain period of time stage that is the best coach for what they need in that certain particular period of time for. For whatever reason. And it's like. Whereas what I see. And I guess one of my pet peeves a little bit, is I almost see the agents parading coaches to the players. And I've had. I've had coaches on him. Michael Joyce, he won't mind me saying it, but I questioned him a lot on this, and I like to. I like to question the coaches on how it comes about and, and I won't say names, but I spoke to a, I spoke to a player, I think it was U.S. open. And they were like, yeah, I'm working with this new coach. I saw. Who's that? And they were like, oh, this was like a named coach coach. And, and I said, how was that process? How? Well, my coach just said, you know, that this is, there's this coach. Okay. And what conversations happened and how much did you go for? No, no. Well, we're just doing a trial period for six months. And I'm like, what? Like what? Like, you know, and, and I, I actually got into it, not trouble, but I, I said something on BBC about Emiratakanu at Australian Open that with kind of some people, they made a headline out of it. But what I was saying is, I was saying like someone like an Emiratakano. I don't, I don't think she needs a coach right now, actually. I think she needs to understand herself first. And then, then you actually start putting the coach into what you know you need. And that's like at that stage in your life and your stage of a career. Like, I think that connection is that, that strong. Whereas I see so many players almost just like taking like throwing darts in the dark because they've, because they. There's a name. And in some ways within our industry, I, I guess I've gone off on a few tangents there, but like.

B (51:10)

No, no, no, but yeah, I get it.

A (51:11)

Yeah, that's, that's the, that's the bit for me of like, that's why I want to ask about Carlos, because it's like sometimes part of me thinks it's, it's a bit luck, it's a bit of timing, you know, but then once you're in off. I take my personal situation now I'm, I'm in the world of WTATP doubles. The perception maybe is that I'm a, I'm this really good coach. But I think I was okay a few years ago when I was also working with players that were playing lower level tournaments. But now naturally the eyes go to, to those. And I just wonder how many coaches are out there that aren't getting the opportunities.

B (51:47)

I think you're right. I think a lot. But I think first of all, it's a, it's a business, right? So when, when we talk about agents, for sure, the agents, they have their name, have their coaches names as well. And whenever there is a player looking for a coach, they're going to most likely send the big names that they have in their pockets. Right. And, and that shows that a lot of coaches are not having the chance to, to even have a trial with a player because at the end of the day you can hire the best coach that you think whatever, but if you don't have a connection with the player, with a player and coach, if they cannot find that connection as a person at first, I would say it's, you go, you go in the wrong direction in my opinion. So I don't think there is a recipe, you know, to say okay, this coach is amazing or this coach is, is not but everyone has, has their strength I would say. And as you mentioned, yes, it's very important that the player also the like the younger the better but the player has to understand what he needs and what he's looking into a person and, and a coach so then he can, he can fine tune that and, and actually find the right fit. And I, and, and I think it goes the same for coaches. I don't think, I don't think coaches can, I cannot coach maybe the same people that you might coach, you know, because we, we have, we have different, maybe different values, different thoughts on, on how to, how to work and, and, and person wise as well. So it's, it's, it's, I think it goes both ways, you know, and it's more about how you, how you approach and, and the communication you have at early on also on in their relationship and.

A (53:49)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like, I love like, like the Anton story with Sabalenka. Like. Yeah, I don't know the full story but I don't think Anton coached anyone before.

B (53:58)

No. And he was, he was, he was her hitting partner.

A (54:02)

Right. Okay.

B (54:03)

And like obviously, I mean I think, I think, I think he was.

A (54:06)

Yeah. So you feel that connection or you know Andrew Bettles with Switolina And I know there was hitting partner stuff. It's a common thing but I like there's, there's different people that can really add and add value to these players lives and stories that, that aren't just big name, big name coaches. Now I know your current player Vicky I got to know a little bit in Sydney and certainly even age 19. Yeah, she's poor. What a switched on kid. Right? Bloody hell. I was, I was like wow. You know, so I'm sure she knows what she wants. You know, I'm sure she also has a lot of people that are telling her what she should want and shouldn't want because she's, she's a superstar. But tell us how did that come about, you know, that, that you were part of Vicky's team?

B (54:53)

Yeah, well, we, she, they were like looking because she was enrolled with, with the Tennis Canada, you know, I mean, part of. Of. Of Tennis Canada. She was. They were like looking to add a coach as well in the team. And it happened that I knew her, her agent at that time, so we started to chat and, and yeah, pretty much it went that I did. I did a trial with her last year in, in Ningbo, within Ningbo, Tokyo and Hong Kong. And yeah, I mean, she won Hong Kong. I think she, she felt quite, quite good with me and even myself, like, I felt, I felt she's, She's a nice kid. She, she works hard. She's a nice kid. She has very good, really good values. Very, very stable and in a way also very mature for her age. And I think it helps coming back to what we discussed earlier, you know, and so yeah, we did, we did a trial and it went well. And, and here I am coaching her now for, for a few months now. It's been great. She's, she's. Honestly, I think she has that type of aura as a, as a big player already. Everyone loves her. She's, she's. Yeah, she's, she's a superstar, but at the same time she, she's still very young. So, you know, it's a, it's a process for her. It's. It's only. She has done only not even a year on tour, like fully, you know, so, I mean, last year she was ranked like 3,300something in January, you know, incredible journey. Yeah. So it's, Everything comes, comes very fast. So yeah, we need, we need to remain calm. We need to, we need to stay humble and we need to work because obviously everyone, everyone is good. Everyone is trying to chase and chase her already. Even though she's 19, people now start to, to, to understand how she plays and, and, and what she does. So it's also, it's. She's gonna have also to deal with the, with the, with more pressure and she's all. She's already like dealing with that, you know, but she's, she's handling herself extremely well so far, and it's important to try to, to, to remain that way and, and stay calm, you know, because we've seen in the past a lot of players also having big results and all of a sudden they are out of the door in few months. So I'm excited, but in the same time I'm trying to remain calm and Keep the team also calm so we can work in the right direction because we know how tough this journey is.

A (57:48)

What does the daily work look like in terms of, you know, from. In. In your role as coach? Like, you know, how much of it is on the mental side, the physical side, the technical side, the tactical side, you know, how much, how much involvement do you have with data? You know, like, I know when Eager Eager trained came to my academy in sort of grandeur, sort of tennis academy when she was 19 or 20, so similar age. And she actually came with a team. But the performance analyst came as well. Yes, and, but. And I had big chats with him, Mike James, who is.

B (58:23)

Yeah, I know him well.

A (58:25)

What I found out that week is she was using data for development, not necessarily for scouting.

B (58:32)

Yeah.

A (58:32)

Whereas I remember he was telling me at the time, like when he'd done stuff with Stan Varinka as an example at that business end of his career, or to what we thought was towards the end of his career five years ago. He's still, he's still bloody going is. You know, he would use it more from scout. Scout scouting purposes, you know, so how much, how much are you doing of that and how much of it's like management of the team and all the bits to, to just being able to just be a tennis coach and get on the court and develop, you know, how do you find your days and weeks are split up?

B (59:04)

Yeah, that, Yeah, I mean, it's a, It's a good topic, but definitely using the analysis. I'm using it a lot. Like we work with analysis and, and it definitely helps for myself as a, as a tennis coach to build up the sessions and see what we need to improve, that's for sure. But it helps also the fitness part in terms of movement and what we also need to improve when we can rewatch the matches and do some short video clips and cut things and then show. And be able to show also, Vicky, if we need to. Because I think it's important for the player to visualize what, what they do, especially in matches. And then obviously there is like the scouting part where this is how I also build the, the weeks in terms of like scouting, where I'll. I go, I go through players and I try to understand also a lot of patterns, like surf patterns, returns, what's, what's their strength in which, in terms of positioning in the core, like what's most likely gonna. Gonna happen. And then, yeah, of course I try to, to bring that and, and make something like, like, like summarize this. So then when I am able to. To talk with Vicky, I'm trying to keep it simple because also for the players, I know and this comes with experience as well. I know you. Sometimes less is better in a way. You know, when you communicate with the player, especially during, during the tournaments and stuff. And you have to also be precise, but sometimes condense what, what you want to say because it can. It can be overwhelmed also at times. And this, this can apply to pretty much every player. And some. Some works better with. With having stats. Some. Some. Doesn't. Some. Some players don't. Don't want to hear it at all. You know, you have to constantly adapt and, and for sure it, It's. It's. It's a big part of. Of our job because people think that, okay, you are on court for one hour in the morning and two hours in the afternoon or vice versa, but it doesn't come down to. To only that, you know, it's. It's how you. How you manage around and how you schedule things and have to go back again during. During the week, you know, to try to build something. Something big for your player.

A (61:28)

How good is she?

B (61:29)

Honestly? I think she's. Yeah, she's. I think she's gonna win multiple Slams. It's not gonna be easy for sure, but I think. I think she has, she has that in her. What's. What's important as well is what, what the players also see in her.

A (61:48)

Yep.

B (61:49)

And when you chat around and, and. And you see what, yeah. What the player has had to say about her. They. They. They also see her being. Being up there. She's improving for sure. She. She has a lot of work to do, obviously, but I think if she stays healthy, for sure she will be. She would be one of the big names in for the next years.

A (62:17)

I am. I took. I took three things away from spending time with. With. With you guys fortunately in, in Sydney, but specifically to. To Vicky. One and first and foremost. And I've said it to you before and I've also said it to Vicky. She was. She was a delight. Like an absolute. Like. Like genuinely like. I almost probably need to stop saying this because people are going to say you're obsessed with this Vicki and vocal, but I just. I could not believe how someone so good, so young and maybe this is a negative in our sport because you. I'm used to almost people like that, not necessarily showcasing that humility, you know, in our sport. And it was like it was every morning at breakfast and I didn't really know A lot of people, you know, in the Canadian team, you know, and, and, but I, she would come, she would come up every morning and shake my hand and say good morning. You know, like little, little things that you don't forget.

B (63:14)

Right.

A (63:14)

You know, like so many, so many little small things or a smile or you know, just, just you. For me, I thought that was brilliant and I saw it happen a lot. The second, the second one for me was I was like, wow, she's running a lot.

B (63:30)

Yeah.

A (63:30)

Every time I seem to look I was like, whoa. That she's doing, she's doing a lot of sprints and I can see she's just cracking on getting the, getting the work done, you know, as well, which was, which was impressive, you know, in the, and the third one was, it was a, it was a match warm up and it was Cleve Harper who I worked with. Cleve was warming her up and obviously you were there and it was the noise when she hit the ball under the little canopy and I, and I was like, whoa, that's like the night. It was different. The, not the noise was, it was. And I know you said earlier about the women's game with the servant and over a back in her serves beautifully. You know, obviously Sabalenka can serve but I, I, for me, Rebecca is next

B (64:16)

level in my opinion.

A (64:17)

Yes, exactly. You know, you know, and then, but from what I saw that week, that is a seriously special serve that Vicky has and I'm sure that you guys are developing and it is, it is going to be and, and those three standouts, you know, for, for me were there and not like to see the character going with the ability and to see all of those things. And then I loved spending time with you, you know, having a humble coach and someone around her as well. It's, she's someone that certainly I'm a big supporter of you guys. You know, I know I'm out there on the tour as well, but I'm a big fan and supporter of you guys as well and, and wish you guys the absolute best, you know, I, I, I re, I really do. Now you've been very kind with your time Max, but we do have a, we do have a quick fire round. There's, you know, that we, to finish us off. Now it can be as quick as you want, so it can be really quick and, and I don't want to keep you too much longer because you've got a practice session to get ready for tomorrow and a clear court, a clear court season to prepare for. But what does control, the controllables mean to you?

B (65:23)

Yeah, it's basically like, like taking care of stuff that is manageable and that's a tough one. And. Yeah, it's taking care of the stuff that we can manage. Manage.

A (65:40)

I would say Alcarazo.

B (65:42)

Sinner, Sinner. I. I like both, but sinner to me is. Is out of this world. I love him.

A (65:50)

What's your favorite tournament?

B (65:52)

Australian Open.

A (65:53)

We all say it, huh?

B (65:55)

Yeah. But I mean, when. When you have the chance to go through the whole calendar and you've done it all, which is our case to me, Australian Open. You cannot compare.

A (66:08)

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received as a coach?

B (66:13)

Trust yourself.

A (66:15)

Very good. What's harder? What's more difficult, being a player or being a coach?

B (66:22)

Being a coach. Yeah. I mean, I've been. I've been in both sides now, and it's pretty intense when you're a coach because you can. You can't control much, in my opinion.

A (66:36)

Our coaches paid well enough and let me. Let me just preempt that a little bit. Even in our relatively short conversation today. We both. We know. Right, we know. But people, hopefully, you know, or most people know, you are basically sacrificing your life for somebody else.

B (66:55)

Yes.

A (66:56)

In lots of ways. So all of that being said. Yeah. Our coaches paid well enough for what they are actually doing, considering what the players are being paid.

B (67:08)

That's. That's a tricky one. Let me say it that way. I think we do, but at the same time, because we don't have that job secure for quite a long time because our job, let's be honest, our job is on the line pretty much every day. Right. Our contract means very little. I don't know if you would agree with me, but that's a tough topic. But it means so little that on a weekly base, maybe we are getting pay well enough, but on the long run.

A (67:45)

It's a good answer. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good answer. That, that kind of. That guarantee of. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

B (67:53)

You don't have any guarantee, you know. Yeah, it's like, yes, we are getting paid, I think, quite well enough. But at the same time, on the long run, you might be. You, you might be short for weeks, months, month or. Or more, you know, so there's also no control.

A (68:13)

I. I certainly am not giving my opinion, saying we're not. But it's like, it's the. For me, it's the lack of control and also understanding what the right peers as well within. There's no governing body. Right.

B (68:25)

Yeah, exactly. But that's.

A (68:26)

It's a free world. So it's also hard to know.

B (68:29)

Yes.

A (68:29)

What the, what the going rates are or the, or what the relevant percentages are. But there's obviously very big sacrifices that go into it. Who's your role model in your tennis career?

B (68:40)

Well, Roger Federer, I'm a big fan, but I used to. I used to be obsessed with Leighton Hewitt.

A (68:49)

Yeah.

B (68:50)

Yeah. I was playing with the reverse hat because of him. I just love his, how, like, feisty he was on court and how pumped he was and like, I just, I just love everything about him. So that would be one Marat Safin for the back end. The cleanness of, of his back end, for sure.

A (69:10)

Andy's aura to tournaments. Sorry, there's just, Just his aura. Yeah. Tournaments now.

B (69:16)

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? There is. There is one guy that I got the chance to. To meet throughout my young career as a coach is Andy Murray. I met. I met Andy Murray. We. We exchanged few words and I've watched him practice when he was. I think it was probably 20, 22, something like that. So he was like, by the end of his career, but the dedication he had on. On the tennis court at his age with all the success he had, and that's something that I, That I found also with Azarenka, the way she, the way she execute, the way she put everything on. On a tennis court, if it was five minutes or two hours, the intensity she brought. And that's something that Andy had as well, in my opinion. And also the chance to, like, talk to him and see how, how, how the nice guy is. I was, I was very, very impressed. And that's something I look up, you know, sometimes I run into him in some of the tournaments and I was like, oof, that's the guy, you know? You know, that kind of. Of feeling.

A (70:28)

I'm. I'm a lot older than you because all of the players, you're saying are all my era.

B (70:33)

Yeah. What about yours?

A (70:36)

Well, do you know what? I was, I was Stefan. I was. Stefan Edberg was my, Was my first as a player. And then I, I got. I got to practice with him when I was 16 because he used to practice in London. Yeah. And I had, I had this amazing two weeks where I practice with him every day, and it was just like, oh, God, my. My goodness. Like how he. I couldn't play for the first couple of days because I was so nervous, but then I actually got like, on really, what good terms with him and Just how graceful he was as a person, but also how he moved on the court and yeah. You know his. So he was, he was kind of probably my, my first big player that mid 80s. I then Federer was my age but he, he became my guy really. Federer, you know, like he just come on. I mean this guy. I mean watching, watching him play that tie break against Casper Rude and Australian Open this year. I think I watched it about 15 times on Instagram. You know, I mean but we all did.

B (71:37)

I think we all did.

A (71:38)

Just still got it. He's just everything and then look. And then as a British guy, even though I'm older than Andy. Yeah. And I played against Standi when Andy was coming through. My admiration for Andy was just through the roof. You know, just what he did and what he did for British tennis and how he carried kind of. He carried it through. He carried through this place where we almost felt it was impossible to get through, you know with the British media and all of those things and you know, see it. So I saw a very, very, very similar honor to you actually and my. But my ego story because I've got. There's always a. And I apologize for anyone who listens in every time but about sharing my stories but when you're 46 years old you've gotta, you've got to try and relive something. You know was. Was 1994 Windmill Cup.

B (72:31)

Yeah.

A (72:32)

Under 14 event in Holland. I played late in you it for the one and only time in singles in the semi finals of the consolation draw and managed to get a win. So I'm one and all. But, but you playing l you in the consolation draw. He was still doing the come ons and touch of Johnny Mack and all of these. He seems that feisty, feisty guy. So we, we, we've. We've been blessed with a lot of amazing, amazing players. Last couple really quick. Should we have net cords or not? College tennis doesn't. ITF juniors doesn't pro tennis. Should you have a neck code or is it just if the serve goes over whether it touches it we play on or should it be. Should it be a let?

B (73:17)

No, I would, I would keep the tradition on that. Keep the let.

A (73:21)

Medical timeouts or not. Should we have them.

B (73:25)

I would get rid of it.

A (73:26)

One rule change that you would make to tennis that's not the medical timeout rule.

B (73:31)

Less tournaments in terms of scheduling. Like this is the only sport where you have like 11 month like schedule, you know of tournaments and then it's I think burns players in a Way I'm talking for singles, but it's doubles.

A (73:48)

The same. But it's like.

B (73:49)

Yeah, it's.

A (73:50)

Look, I, I had a, I had a conversation. Mark Pecci in Miami, and it was, it was the day before my girls played the semi finals. Yeah, but he's there working for the Tennis channel, so it's not, it's like. And he was saying, I didn't actually see the match, but he said that, you know, Carlos Alcaraz seemed very burnt out in the match against Corda. And it's, and it's like. But everyone's, it's not just the players, it's all the coaches, it's all the stringers, the physios, the broadcasters, the, you know, there's everyone, everyone involved. The weeks like that, to be in America for four weeks for Indian Wells and Miami is just crazy. Yeah, it's like, you know, for these tournaments and it's like.

B (74:38)

But it never stops.

A (74:39)

It never stops.

B (74:41)

Yeah. The, the following week, it's is a Charleston then you have.

A (74:46)

Yeah.

B (74:47)

And it keeps going. It keeps going.

A (74:51)

Yeah. And look, it's, people are going to go, oh, you're lucky. And it is, and it's amazing what we do.

B (74:55)

Yes, exactly.

A (74:56)

We're very, we're very privileged, but we are. It does. There's, there's definitely, definitely a way of making, making it a little bit better and more maybe humane for, for, for, for everyone and their welfare. The last question I always ask Max on the, on the podcast is, but before you answer, whatever you answer, you are. You are taking on the responsibility of helping get this person on the show next.

B (75:22)

Okay.

A (75:22)

Don't just throw somebody random like, you know, I had Adam Jones on. I don't know if you know.

B (75:27)

Yeah, I know. Yeah, of course I know. I know.

A (75:29)

Yeah. Jonesy was on last week and Jonesy said Carlos Alcaraz. Now, Jonesy, if you're listening, you still haven't got Carlos Alcaraz on the show, mate, so you better get to work. Somebody said Donald Trump. I'm not sure I want. I'm not sure I want Donald Trump on the show. But anyway, Andy Murray said Daniel Medvedev and Andy Murray, if you are listening, you still have not produced Daniel Medvedev for me. So who, who should come on the show? Who should be next on Control? The controllables.

B (75:57)

Okay. I would say the first name that comes to my mind, Paul Toledo, the coach of Paula Badoza.

A (76:05)

Ah, nice.

B (76:06)

Very nice guy. Nice, very humble young guy as well. My age, I think would be good to have his view also on, on this journey.

A (76:18)

Awesome. Well, I'll be in touch. Well, I will be seeing you next week in Madrid, so can we can get it set up? The, the listeners will be, will be saying, come on, we're waiting for him. But Max, you're an absolute star. It. For me, it's just nice to, to chat to you. I'm sorry I took a bit longer than I, than I said I would, but I always enjoy our conversations. I think you're doing a brilliant job. Keep up the great work and, and look forward to. To catching up next week.

B (76:43)

Yes, for sure, we will. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Thank you so much.

A (76:48)

So there we have it. So many, I guess so many topics that we jumped into. I, I always feel, Max, there's, there's so many more conversations that I can have. You know, I find him, you know, very, very, very calm, very composed, very assured in what he's doing, which is, you know, mature beyond these years. Certainly doing an absolutely brilliant job with Vicky and Boko, you know, which, you know, in terms of, you know, the conversations, you know, we touched on, touched on lots of, lots of different areas. You know, the, the, the what makes a good coach, you know, conversation always very interesting. The French tennis, you know, that I found that fascinating as well. You know, getting that insight into French tennis that has been so successful for, for so many years and then going to be a multiple Grand Slam champion. You know, I think it's a big statement, but it's. It. He's right, you know, he's right in what he's saying, what he's saying. He's writing what the feeling is on the tour. You know, the, the, the Vicki and Boko train is well and truly on its way. You know, she's someone that, that has not only the game in abundance, but she has the character in abundance as well. And, and he's doing a brilliant job leading that train on it, on its charge right now. And whatever happens in Max's career, we didn't get to that because I, I overstepped our timing of what's next. I have no doubts that he's going to have a very successful career on the tour as, as a coach. Just feels to me that he's, he's made to be a coach. You know, he's someone that you'd want in your corner, right? In every way that he speaks. And if there's anyone else that you guys want, we've, we've got the potential of Paulo Badosa's coach coming on over the next couple of weeks with, with with Max, with Max saying that. But who do you want to hear from? What do you want to hear about, you know, are we writing, asking the right questions? You know, are we digging into the areas of interest for you? I know, I love having these conversations. I've got a lot of curiosity, but what is it that you guys want to hear and what do you want from Control the Controllables as well? I thank you all for your support. As ever, we will be continuing to try and get more episodes out over the next few weeks. I myself will be on the road a little bit more over the next few weeks. Madrid, Rome and French Open. The clear court season for me in between my time. I'll be at Soto Tennis Academy as well. So come out and see us there as well. And then we'll have the green grass before you know it and hopefully see some of you in the UK at Queens, at Wimbledon and wherever else you are in the world. Please do. I love it when you come up at this and say hello. I had somebody who came up and spoke to me in Tokyo at the end of last year, a couple of people that were listening to the podcast and that really makes my day as well. So please reach out, please get in touch with us. Please do come and say hello wherever you see us in the world. But until next time, my name is Dan Keenan and we are Control the Controllables.